Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Balloon Juice has never been a refuge for the linguistically delicate.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

“That’s what the insurrection act is for!”

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

Oppose, oppose, oppose. Do not congratulate. This is not business as usual.

Jack Smith: “Why did you start campaigning in the middle of my investigation?!”

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Every day Vance writes another chapter in the book called “Worst VP Pick Ever”.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

There is no compromise when it comes to body autonomy. You either have it or you don’t.

“When somebody takes the time to draw up a playbook, they’re gonna use it.”

Let’s bury these fuckers at the polls 2 years from now.

A norm that restrains only one side really isn’t a norm – it’s a trap.

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

You are here: Home / Compare and Contrast

Compare and Contrast

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I’m dying to hear how this is a failed analysis:

After Bradley Manning was arrested on charges that he leaked documents to WikiLeaks, he was held in intense solitary confinement for ten months until political pressure finally forced his transfer to more humane conditions in Fort Leavenworth; the top U.N. torture official last week concluded that Manning’s treatment during those 10 months was “cruel and inhumane.” By stark contrast, Staff Sgt. Robert Bales — the prime suspect in the slaughter of 16 Afghan civilians — is already at Fort Leavenworth and is receiving this treatment:

    Bales arrived at Fort Leavenworth last Friday and is being held in an isolated cell. He is “already being integrated into the normal pretrial confinement routine,” prison spokeswoman Rebecca Steed said.

    The routine includes recreation, meals and cleaning the area where he is living. Steed said once his meetings with his attorneys are complete later in the week, Bales will resume the normal integration process.

An ABC News article back when Manning was transferred to Fort Leavenworth included these details:

    The 150 inmates at the facility — including eight who are awaiting trial — are allowed three hours of recreation a day, she said, and three meals a day in a dining area.

That likely means that there will be some substantial interaction between Bales and Manning. Think about that: if you expose to the world previously unknown evidence of widespread wanton killing of civilians (as Manning allegedly did), then you will end up in the same place as someone who actually engages in the mass wanton killing of civilians (as Bales allegedly did), except that the one who committed atrocities will receive better treatment than the one who exposed them. That’s a nice reflection of our government’s value system (similar to the way that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized, while those who expose them are aggressively prosecuted). If the chat logs are to be believed, Manning decided to leak those documents because they revealed heinous war crimes that he could no longer in good conscience allow to be concealed, and he will now find himself next to a soldier who is accused of committing heinous war crimes.

How is he wrong?

Obligatory “OMG GREENWALD IS A FIREBAGGING PONCE WHO DOESN’T LIVE IN AMERICA” with the follow-up “YOU OBOTS WILL DEFEND ANYTHING OBAMA DOES.”

Reader Interactions

329Comments

  2. 2.

    sb

    Obligatory “OMG GREENWALD IS A FIREBAGGING PONCE WHO DOESN’T LIVE IN AMERICA” with the follow-up “YOU OBOTS WILL DEFEND ANYTHING OBAMA DOES.”

    See, now I have nothing to say. You took all the good lines.

  3. 3.

    eemom

    “OMG GREENWALD IS A FIREBAGGING PONCE WHO DOESN’T LIVE IN AMERICA”

    No, not that. Just that your monkey see-monkey post parroting of everything Greenwald says is getting kinda creepy.

  4. 4.

    Klaus

    Because to vote for a president we have to love him to bits? People have a hard time accepting that this is about the game and not the players. So it is both true that a Dem prez does horrible stuff that most people are ok with because it doesn’t happen to them, and that said Dem prez is still miles better than the only alternatives on display. Drink it up!

  6. 6.

    David Koch

    he was held in intense solitary confinement for ten months

    He wasn’t held in solitary. He was held in a u-shaped cell block with others. He had reading materials, tee vee, daily showers, regular meals, and a exercise room.

  7. 7.

    WeeBey

    How does he have a point?

    Rapists get put in prison with people who smoke weed. So what?

    Tax cheats are held in the same federal prison as the Unabomber. Does this somehow equate their crimes?

    What the fuck, Cole? You aren’t this dumb.

  10. 10.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    You’ve turned into your very own David Broder, both sides do it, on your very own blog. I don’t care what Greenwald has to say about anything, and on this topic, you neither. Yawn.

    Oh, and please stop with the bullshit Bradley Manning whistleblew on “widespread wanton killings” when all the fucker did was download a bunch of raw info and give it to Wikileaks. I’m sure both Bales and Manning will hit it off famous for each other.

  11. 11.

    David Koch

    Compare and Contrast

    Why is it none of the usual suspects once complained about the other people held in Manning’s cell block at Quantico?

    Righteous indignation, protests, and contributions for one, but not for others.

    Now what does that selective outrage tell you?

  13. 13.

    Klaus

    @James Low: That’s the argument for not criticizing a Dem prez, because criticism dampens enthusiasm and turnout, and thus enables a Repug admin.

    Edit: Which might be true! And a Repug admin would very likely be worse, which also is true!

  14. 14.

    Lord Jesus Perm

    Now that John’s big-upped Greenwald again, does this mean ABL steps in and contributes her part to this ridiculous dance?

  15. 15.

    John Cole

    @WeeBey:

    What the fuck, Cole? You aren’t this dumb.

    You apparently are, as you completely ignored the central point, which was that they fucked with Manning for 10 months, while they immediately moved Bales there. That was his point- the guy who exposed massacres was treated worse than the one who committed them.

    We aren’t talking about their current conditions, which everyone agrees is acceptable.

    Christ on a crutch.

  18. 18.

    existential fish

    That’s not what Manning did Cole. Manning decided the US had no right to keep anything secret. Some of those secrets may have been horrible, but not all of them.

    I have no interest in defending Manning’s incarceration, but to defend what Manning did based on what some of what he leaked without any regard to correct protocol or the laws of this country is simply unserious in terms of any way that will affect policy.

    Even if you want to argue that those laws are unjust, you have to do so – you can’t just pretend they don’t exist.

    Moreover, if Manning had came forward with targeted leaks of atrocities covered up, he’d get far more support in my corner at least (and I hope in the corners of others)

    But that’s not what he did. He copied a bunch of shit and gave it all away without regard to what was on it. That’s a serious crime.

  19. 19.

    David Koch

    @Klaus:

    So it is both true that a Dem prez does horrible

    How does Obama have anything to do with this? No President gets involved in the daily functions of the federal and military penal system. Let alone, for any one person. I mean, no one thinks a president gets involved in the daily functions of embassies located around the world.

  20. 20.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    That’s a nice reflection of our government’s value system (similar to the way that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized, while those who expose them are aggressively prosecuted).

    Jeebus, “immunized”? They just charged Bales with 17 counts of capital murder.

  21. 21.

    WeeBey

    @John Cole:

    Which is a central point of what, exactly?

    Who is “they” for fuck’s sake?

    When people are incarcerated, strange things happen to them. They get put in a a holding tank and observed for anywhere from a couple days to a couple months. If the warden decides to psych them, they go to the psych ward.

    Perhaps this guy was a model prisoner and went straight through the pipeline. Perhaps Manning rolled his own shit into balls and ate it, and got himself psyched. Perhaps a bed just happened to be free.

    For fuck’s sake, man.

  22. 22.

    dollared

    And another way to say it is, that it is exceptionally stupid to put this guy in the same prison with Manning, and to give this guy better treatment.

    Perhaps the right treatment was a PTSD diagnosis and an honorable discharge, six months ago?

    Greenwald is right to flag it. Maybe some of you people will stop apologizing for these awful goddamn wars and for the cowardly politicians who allowed them to go forward, and to last longer than any wars in our history.

  24. 24.

    David Koch

    @John Cole:

    which was that they fucked with Manning for 10 months

    Completely untrue. Manning’s own attorney, on his very own blog, said guards treated Manning professionally.

  25. 25.

    The Tragically Flip

    @David Koch:

    He wasn’t held in solitary. He was held in a u-shaped cell block with others. He had reading materials, tee vee, daily showers, regular meals, and a exercise room.

    Oh enough of this. He was kept on various forms of unofficial suicide watch despite actual experts in psychiatry rating him a low risk of suicide. They made him sleep naked when he, after several months, complained about it. It’s something out of Catch-22 in its vindictive bureaucratic illogic.

    He was deliberately mistreated, with “prevention of injury” measures. Have you ever thought about how annoying it would be to be asked, and compelled to respond affirmatively to “are you ok?” every 5 minutes for every waking hour of the day for months on end?

  26. 26.

    RD

    Bradley Manning was a douche.

    Why are we still talking about him in relation to anything else?

  27. 27.

    Joseph Nobles

    Difference: The exposure of “widespread wanton killing of civilians” by Manning does not seem to have been Manning’s main point in the egregious document dump he did. If the only thing he’d released had been such evidence, Glenzilla might have a point.

  28. 28.

    Yevgraf

    Fuck Bradley Manning. Cap his ass as a lesson to others.

    I’m the same about Pollard as well.

  29. 29.

    andrewsomething

    @WeeBey:

    Tax cheats are held in the same federal prison as the Unabomber.

    I seriously doubt that any tax cheats have been held in the supermax in Florence.

  30. 30.

    The Tragically Flip

    Oh, and it was solitary:

    Coombs said that although Manning is technically not held in solitary confinement, “the cumulative effect of his confinement conditions are tantamount to solitary confinement.” He said that there are no other detainees on either side of his cell and that the cell lacks a window or natural light. If Manning tries to speak to others several cells away, “the guards will likely view it as disruptive and require him to stop speaking,” he wrote in his blog.

    People you’re not allowed to talk to are not company.

  32. 32.

    Danny

    Newsflash: “War weary ragtag union deserter hung, while Jefferson Davis lived a plush post civil war life and had the biggest funeral evar!”

    Newsflash #2: “Taking 250k diplomatic cables which you have not read and making them available to Al Qaeda, Mossad and GRU is serious bizniz and a serious crime, even”

  34. 34.

    MoeLarryAndJesus

    @David Koch:

    How does Obama have anything to do with this? No President gets involved in the daily functions of the federal and military penal system. Let alone, for any one person.

    This is simply untrue. Nixon got directly involved with the William Calley case.

  35. 35.

    The Tragically Flip

    @RD:

    Bradley Manning was a douche.

    He’s still alive, still in prison, and he has not been convicted of a crime.

    Why are we still talking about him in relation to anything else?

    Because he is literally in the same fucking prison they are holding the guy accused of perpetrating a civilian massacre. Yes, what a stretch that anyone would compare that guy’s treatement to Manning’s. What the fuck is wrong with you?

  38. 38.

    Yevgraf

    PS – still waiting for anybody, anywhere to tell me a signature achievement or skill that Glenn Greenwald can actually claim.

    By my count, about all he’s done has been to mount a loser fucking defense for a racist that deserves to be dead, after which he managed to score a Brazilian sugar daddy and a sweet writing gig capitalizing on simpering criticism based on the political economy of unicorns running the People’s Republic of the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

    He’s beyond parody.

  39. 39.

    Klaus

    @David Koch: Yes, I’m sure the president is powerless to influence general detention policy or intervene in highly prolific cases. Why do you bring up Obama anyway?

    The general picture is that the political system is making people choose sides between a general critical stance to the political system and partisan involvement inside the system. What I’m saying is, in other political systems one does not necessarily have to choose between civil liberties and economic justice.

  41. 41.

    WeeBey

    @cathyx:

    It calls into question people’s stridency in this particular case, it sure as shit does.

    If you look like a psych threat, jail is gonna suck for you, I grant.

    Manning sure seems like a psych risk from where I sit.

    I sympathize, actually. But I am pretty fucking tired of the way his tale gets bent by people with a pretty see-through agenda.

    Here’s a thought for you, though. If you’re truly concerned?

    Bring some books and magazines to your county jail.

  43. 43.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    @WeeBey: @WeeBey:

    Amen, and there is not a fucking thing said about it. We have people in our jail here who have been incarcerated since 2008, with no trial forthcoming, they have been in jail for four years with no trial even in the near future.

  44. 44.

    The Tragically Flip

    @WeeBey:

    Happens to people in every county jail in the country, every day.

    Yes, and paying attention to one case of it, saying “that’s fucking wrong, and it shouldn’t happen to anyone” is how positive systemic change happens. Or did you imagine Rosa Parks was the first black person arrested for not sitting in the back of a bus, or Trayvon Martin the first black murder victim that white police ignored?

    People need faces to injustice to actualize the inhumanity of it.

  45. 45.

    dollared

    @Yevgraf: Yup. And he’s usually right about the murderous corruption and hypocrisy here in The Land of Stout Patriots Who Swill Gasoline and Bomb Brown People. So he pisses you off.

    Sorry. Maybe you can learn something in the process.

  47. 47.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Yevgraf:

    PS – still waiting for anybody, anywhere to tell me a signature achievement or skill that Glenn Greenwald can actually claim.

    Well there was this Bradley Manning fellow who was being mistreated by the military for political reasons. Apparently Greenwald’s attention to the matter helped improve Manning’s detention conditions…

  48. 48.

    Frankensteinbeck

    Among other things, he’s wrong because he’s continuing to talk as if Manning’s claims of how he was treated were true, when they were never verified by anyone. Like the ‘sleeping naked’ bit, which turned out to mean no underwear under whatever he chose to wear, or ‘no sheets or a pillow’, which turned out to mean he had blankets and the pillow was an integrated part of the mattress. And he wasn’t allowed out for months to exercise, except that some of his visitors saw him out exercising.

    Glenn has misrepresented every aspect of this case to make a mountain out of a molehill. A man who committed a crime, while awaiting trial that was only slow because of the conditions his defense requested, was held at a higher level of security than was warranted. No, not a good thing. Also not within light years of anything Greenwald has implied.

  49. 49.

    David Koch

    @Klaus:

    Why do you bring up Obama anyway?

    um, because the person I was replying to, which is linked to in my post, had brought Obama.

  52. 52.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    @WeeBey:
    Here in my County jail the only book that is allowed to be brought into the jail is the bible. The ACLU sued to make other books available and won, now the Sheriff insists that the “books” brought into the jail must come directly from the publisher, the ACLU now has to go back to court to get books from family members that are not the bible acceptable.

  53. 53.

    Danny

    @The Tragically Flip:

    He was deliberately mistreated, with “prevention of injury” measures. Have you ever thought about how annoying it would be to be asked, and compelled to respond affirmatively to “are you ok?” every 5 minutes for every waking hour of the day for months on end?

    This is incorrect, and has been pointed out many times. He was asked if he was ok if his head was hidden from view, not every five minutes. ETA: also, he was on suicide watch for three days afaik.

  55. 55.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    They were verified by Quantico staff:

    For most of the past eight months, Manning has been required to sleep wearing only boxer shorts, because of his status as a detainee under “prevention of injury watch,” said 1st Lt. Brian Villiard, a spokesman for the military detention facility, or “brig,” in Quantico. Beginning Wednesday night, the facility commander ordered that Manning turn over his boxers, too.

    “The intention is not to cause any sort of humiliation or embarrassment,” Villiard said. “The intention is to ensure the safety and security of the detainee and make sure he is able to stand trial.”

    Yes, he was required to sleep naked. Eventually I understand they gave him one of these. Comfy and not at all demeaning!

  58. 58.

    eemom

    @Yevgraf:

    still waiting for anybody, anywhere to tell me a signature achievement or skill that Glenn Greenwald can actually claim.

    You may wish to have a seat, because it will be a long wait.

    Greenwald is, in reality, an obscure little insect who barely ever even practiced law apart from that Hale case.

    ETA: And that, I don’t fault him for — because it is absolutely a fundamental tenet of our justice system that even the lowliest scumbag is entitled to a defense.

  59. 59.

    Svensker

    I’m with you, Cole. Which I guess makes me objectively pro-terrorist or something.

  60. 60.

    amused

    @The Tragically Flip: Sure, people need a face to identify with. I, however, don’t believe a guy who passed military documents to an unknown entity to be posted around the internet is the person I’d use to get the message across about how inhumane the prison system is in the US. To be fair, I wouldn’t use Gates, either. Hard to drum up sympathy, don’t you think? An innocent guy on death row, maybe…

    That’s not to say that any war crimes that were inadvertently exposed after the data dump should be ignored. Anyone know how the investigations, if any, of those incidents turned out?

  61. 61.

    WeeBey

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Jesus.

    My best friend is in jail, and I can send to him through Amazon OR I can send to his parents and they can give them to him at in person visits.

    As an aside, if you have a friend locked up, Amazon Prime is your best friend.

  63. 63.

    Egg Berry

    I haven’t read all the comments, but I could hazard the guess that maybe they learned something?

  64. 64.

    ChrisNYC

    Greenwald’s hook is wrong. Good faith mistake on his part, NO DOUBT.

    The UN report made the finding of “cruel and inhuman” on the basis of pretrial solitary confinement.

    “I conclude that the 11 months under conditions of solitary confinement (regardless of the name given to his regime by the prison authorities) constitutes at a minimum cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in violation of article 16 of the convention against torture,” he told the paper.

    Bales is also being held in pretrial solitary confinement.

    The Army said he was being held in pre-trial solitary confinement at the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility at Fort Leavenworth.

    The Army said Bales was being held in “special housing” in his own cell rather than the standard four-person room.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/story/2012-03-16/afghanistan-shooting-suspect/53561546/1

    So you know the whole compare and contrast bit falls flat.

    Kids in Texas get pretrial solitary confinement on occasion. Those Rangers MUST be trying to roll them to give up Julian Assange. Bastards.

  65. 65.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Danny:

    This is incorrect, and has been pointed out many times. He was asked if he was ok if his head was hidden from view, not every five minutes. ETA: also, he was on suicide watch for three days afaik.

    That’s not what his lawyer alleges:

    The guards are required to check on PFC Manning every five minutes by asking him if he is okay. PFC Manning is required to respond in some affirmative manner. At night, if the guards cannot see PFC Manning clearly, because he has a blanket over his head or is curled up towards the wall, they will wake him in order to ensure he is okay.

    This, was part of “prevention of injury” watch, which is different from suicide watch. He was on POI watch for months.

  66. 66.

    David Koch

    Why the interest in Manning and not for the thousands doing hard time in actual solitary holes like Pelican Bay?

    Dontcha care about your fellow men being mistreated in actual solitary confinement?

  68. 68.

    ruemara

    Dude, I hate to bust that greenwaldian bubble, but Manning has never said he released the documents to protest serious violations of civil rights. It was, according to him, anger of failure to repeal DADT. I have no problem with saying that I think he’s been treated poorly because, frankly, people don’t like betrayers and his fellow military felt betrayed. Should he be protected? Yes. Should we feel anger at the issues his treatment shed light on? Yes. Is this Obama’s fault, as people love to allege? Probably not. Is Bradley Manning a prisoner of conscience? Also, not. He’s a very unwell young man who needed help and not a security clearance. A file dump is not whistle blowing, it’s the techno equivalent of kicking the trash can because you’re angry.

  71. 71.

    Ben Franklin

    @ruemara:

    Is Bradley Manning a prisoner of conscience? Also, not.

    He asked for nothing. Got nothing. It is a question for history.

  72. 72.

    Corner Stone

    So refreshing to see the Parsing Patriots(tm) come out in full throated dudgeon.

  73. 73.

    David Koch

    @The Tragically Flip:

    Apparently Greenwald’s attention to the matter helped improve Manning’s detention conditions…

    Oh, so it was greenwald and not his attorney? I see. This is all about glenn. That’s why.

    I get it now.

  74. 74.

    Svensker

    @David Koch:

    Why are you interested in women’s rights in the States when there are honor killings of women in Pakistan?

    The jackalope argument.

  78. 78.

    Cacti

    Greenwald turns his organ grinder and Cole dances like a good little monkey…

    Clinking his little cymbals together and shouting Free Mumia!

  81. 81.

    The Tragically Flip

    @amused:

    See, and I say a conscientious whistle blower is precisely the kind of poster child needed for evoking sympathy at common prison mistreatment tactics.

    Aside from the actual war crimes disclosed (which wasn’t “incidental”, it was reputedly Manning’s prime motivation), the banality of most of what Manning leaked only serves to prove how rampant classification abuse is within the US Government.

    5 minutes of browsing finds me a suitable example. That cable is officially “SECRET” (the highest level Manning is accused of leaking) – what in there could damage US national security? Oil figures from a foreign country? Questions about their domestic politics?

    The whole idea of democratic governments keeping secrets from their citizens used to be controversial, and these classifications were supposed to be used sparingly only for actual, you know, secrets like missile codes and names of spies. Now a foreign country’s oil projections are a US state secret.

  83. 83.

    Loneoak

    Has anyone considered the possibility that Greenwald is actually Tunch? And fealty that Cole shows Greenwald is actually just an act to keep from getting shanked in his sleep? PROVE ME WRONG.

  84. 84.

    The Dangerman

    @Ben Franklin:

    Eat the corn in my crap.

    Blow me.

    Manning’s no hero; he’s a crook that will probably never be a free man again. Good riddance.

  85. 85.

    salacious crumb

    @Svensker: No it makes you a racist. For ABL, eemom and the likes, criticizing a black man makes you a racist or an Uncle Tom. All hail Dear Leader Obama, He Whose Policies Shall Not Be Questioned!

  88. 88.

    Yevgraf

    @Ben Franklin:

    Poor widdle Bradley the shitweasel – when given a position of responsibility, he does a document dump in order to make some guy on the Internet say nice things about him.

    It’s almost as cool as doing something amazing to get Jodie Foster to notice him….

  90. 90.

    Ben Franklin

    @The Dangerman:

    I didn’t say anything about ‘hero’, asswipe. He is a victim of circumstance. If you can’t conjure up some compassion, you might as well register as a Republican.

    I don’t see much difference between your comments and those at Weasel Zippers.

  91. 91.

    mk3872

    It’s only a “fair analysis” if you completely disregard what Mr. Manning did and consider him a hero instead of someone who put the country’s top secrets and other people in danger with his actions.

  93. 93.

    The Tragically Flip

    @ruemara:

    What is your source on that claim? If the chatlogs are real, he seems plenty concerned with war crimes in their own right:

    (02:24:58 AM) Manning: the reaction to the video gave me immense hope… CNN’s iReport was overwhelmed… Twitter exploded…
    (02:25:18 AM) Manning: people who saw, knew there was something wrong
    (02:26:10 AM) Manning: Washington Post sat on the video… David Finkel acquired a copy while embedded out here
    (02:26:36 AM) Manning: [also reason as to why there’s probably no investigation]
    (02:28:10 AM) Manning: i want people to see the truth… regardless of who they are… because without information, you cannot make informed decisions as a public

  94. 94.

    The Dangerman

    @Ben Franklin:

    He is a victim of circumstance.

    By that reasoning, so is George Zimmerman. Oh, if only that kid hadn’t been wearing a hoodie.

    Victim of circumstance my left nut. Bullshit.

  96. 96.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @The Tragically Flip:

    What Manning did was dump a huge amount of info into the public domain, including detailed after action reports of how his fellow soldiers operated in harms way. With many of them outside the wire getting shot at, while Manning was inside the wire and not getting shot at. There are other ways to protest a war or DADT, , rather than doing what he did, allegedly. It is called lending aid and comfort to the enemy, and a selling out of his comrades in arms, if found guilty.

  98. 98.

    Clime Acts

    @eemom:

    There ya go Cole—blessed by the Parrot-in-Chief.

    Oh my. That was down right, dare I say?, bitchy.

    I liked it!

    Even though AL is one of the only two semi sane FP’ers at BJ.

  100. 100.

    Billy Rae Valentine

    i don’t know what other commenters said, so i apologize if this is redundant.

    i don’t believe Manning let those secrets out because he “could no longer abide” the slaughter or whatever the poster wrote. i don’t believe it was a matter of conscience in any way. i think it was that it was a path to notoriety for him in the online circles he traveled. he was befriended by various male personalities online who benefited from his leaks like assange. this is detailed in many articles. they used him for the info and he sought their attention. he broke the law and i think is a traitor, technically.

    that said, i think some of his treatment is a travesty and i condemn it. i think some of it is illegal. i understand the poster’s point about what this suggests about our values that the murderer gets better treatment than the whistle-blower. it is odd/disturbing.

  103. 103.

    Corner Stone

    Not much of a compare and contrast, actually. When Bales notches as many kills as Manning somebody please let us know.
    Til then..yawn.

  107. 107.

    Chyron HR

    @salacious crumb:

    If only you True Progressives could stop calling the President things like, quote, “House Nigger”, unquote. Then that would really show those Obotomized Obots how crazy they look for calling you racist!

    If only…

  108. 108.

    Corner Stone

    @Anya: Probably because it’s the same authoritarian assholes struggling to explain away facts they’d prefer to not acknowledge.
    Or just don’t give a shit about. Take your pick.

  109. 109.

    amused

    @The Tragically Flip: I agree that a “conscientious whistle blower is precisely the kind of poster child needed for evoking sympathy at common prison mistreatment tactics.” But I don’t agree that Manning is it. And I don’t think what he did can be conflated with what Gates did. Motives aside, Manning passed military documents to an unknown entity who posted them on the internet. Gates went on a bender and killed lots of people. Espionage (technically) vs War Crime (or just plain crime, really). Apples and pizzas.

  110. 110.

    clayton

    intense solitary confinement

    There’s some kind that isn’t intense? Or is this just more flowery language to fan the flames?

    I don’t remember your writing about some others who did nothing more than be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    I’m so sick of Greenwald. He’s just out to make a buck and a name and you just keep giving it oxygen.

    Enough already.

  111. 111.

    David Koch

    @Billy Rae Valentine:

    i understand the poster’s point about what this suggests about our values that the murderer gets better treatment than the whistle-blower. it is odd/disturbing.

    plenty of prisoners are mistreated every day. To focus solely on Manning to the exclusion of thousands of other victims is odd/disturbing.

  112. 112.

    eemom

    @Clime Acts:

    AL is one of the only two semi sane FP’ers at BJ.

    Sane, she may be. Having any claim to possession or articulation of a single original idea in the entire course of her oevre on this blog — other than “Corner Stone is a great guy” — she is not.

    Who is your other “semi sane” FPer, Sir Timothy?

  113. 113.

    Spectre

    The mental illness is high in this thread. I wonder how many dnc partisans will start self mutilating after Glenn’s appeareance on Real Time with Bill Maher tonight.

  116. 116.

    Yevgraf

    True Progressives only care about gay marriage and beleaguered young men, while fluffing secret fascist Ron Paul…

    You figure out Glenn’s interests.

  117. 117.

    The Dangerman

    @Ben Franklin:

    Your right nut would be the victim, in that scenario. Fuck the Hell off.

    If I recall my history correctly, your namesake liked his women really, REALLY young. Makes your choice of names rather apropos.

  119. 119.

    Corner Stone

    @Yevgraf: Please tell us more.
    You’ve previously enlightened us on your thoughts on execution of your political adversaries, now gay men and their fantasies.
    Fascinating stuff.

  120. 120.

    The Tragically Flip

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):

    What Manning did was dump a huge amount of info into the public domain, including detailed after action reports of how his fellow soldiers operated in harms way.

    US tactics in combat are not classified. The Taliban can google the manuals like anyone else. Do you also want to prosecute Petraeus for publishing his COIN manual online?

    What manning mostly revealed demonstrated that war crimes are common and all manner of merely embarrassing information is illegally classified to conceal it.

    What is selling out Manning’s comrades under fire is leaving them in a losing war under failing tactics while top generals and politicians paint a rosy and false picture for the public.

  121. 121.

    Ben Franklin

    @Yevgraf:

    True conservatives only care about ‘Lawn-odah’ because that’s the only thing keeping this Country from the evils of anarchy.

    Eat the peanuts out of my turd.

  125. 125.

    Ben Franklin

    @The Dangerman:

    your namesake liked his women really, REALLY young

    This proves your idiocy. B Franklin liked older women because they were so gratelful.

    Go peddle your conservative trope at RedState..

  126. 126.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Yevgraf:

    True Progressives only care about […]

    Hmm:

    Fuck Bradley Manning. Cap his ass as a lesson to others.

    Yes, tell us more about what true progressives do. A reactionary authoritarian psycho like yourself surely has some deep thoughts on the subject.

  130. 130.

    Corner Stone

    @amused: Or it could have been former SecDef Bobby Gates.
    With either I have a clear strike to blame that damned Obama!

  131. 131.

    El Cid

    It was certainly risky, but as it happens, the information released by Manning happens to have improved the world greatly, and when I was in the military I would have gladly accepted the increased risk to my life for the chance that a few million around the world be liberated from tyranny — which, thankfully, though not necessarily, is what happened.

  134. 134.

    Ben Franklin

    @ChrisNYC:

    http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=468

    But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:

    1. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor’d with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.

    2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.

    3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc’d may be attended with much Inconvenience.

    4. Because thro’ more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin’d to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.

    5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.

    6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.

    7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.

    8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!

  135. 135.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @The Tragically Flip:

    US tactics in combat are not classified. The Taliban can google the manuals like anyone else. Do you also want to prosecute Petraeus for publishing his COIN manual online?

    Bullshit. Equating a manual with actual on going operations in a specific war zone, is simply bullshit. Just like Greenwald’s bullshit that Bales is being “immunized”. That info was classified “secret”, military manuals are not.

    What manning mostly revealed demonstrated that war crimes are common and all manner of merely embarrassing information is illegally classified to conceal it.

    More bullshit, Manning didn’t even read what he copied, and the US military in Afghanistan has been upfront about too much killing, especially at checkpoints. And who made you the arbiter of what classified info is “illegal”.

    What is selling out Manning’s comrades under fire is leaving them in a losing war under failing tactics while top generals and politicians paint a rosy and false picture for the public.

    This is so arrogant it takes the breath away. And as I said, there are other ways, legal ways, to protest a war, other than someone in uniform giving away classified info as a pogue (in the rear), while others in uniform are out fighting and dieing.

    Bradley Manning volunteered for the military, and every soldier is warned about doing what he allegedly did, especially in a war zone. And how very serious a criminal act it would be.

  136. 136.

    Danny

    @El Cid:
    So if I had killed Bush in February 2003 then many people might say I did “improve” the world, right? But that would still have been a crime.

  142. 142.

    Ben Franklin

    And as I said, there are other ways, legal ways, to protest a war, other than someone in uniform giving away classified info as a pogue (in the rear), while others in uniform are out fighting and dieing.

    This is what separates the liberals from the conservatives; compassion.

    Here was a private in a world of commissioned officers, trying to equate his duty with his conscience. He has seen, first hand how it works to whistleblow. There is no safe house. What doe he do? Put yourself in his postion as a person of conscience, if you can. He made a mistake. Can you understand? Or will you persist in your super righteous fulminations?

    Gawd, I hate conservatives.

  146. 146.

    Tight white Pussycat

    You Greenwald haters are obviously all homophobes. It’s truly disgusting. Don’t even bother trying to deny it. Your comments speak for themselves.

  148. 148.

    eemom

    @Ben Franklin:

    You keep using that word, “conservative.” I do not think it means what you think it means.

    (dayum, I’ve been waiting YEARS for a chance to do that.)

  154. 154.

    clayton

    @Ben Franklin: He broke the law. He made quite a number of people’s jobs more difficult and risky. Do you seriously think that diplomacy in any age needs this sort of shit?

    Why not focus on something more relevant, like the countries that have nukes but deny it, like Israel.

    Save your venom for a worthy target.

  155. 155.

    The Tragically Flip

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):

    Equating a manual with actual on going operations in a specific war zone, is simply bullshit.

    Name some “ongoing operations” that were compromised by the Iraq or Afghanistan document dumps. The Afghan diaries cover material ending Dec 2009 and were published July 2010.

    Iraq’s docs also end in 2009 and weren’t published until October 2010.

    You’re implying the Taliban got live, useful intelligence on troop locations and intentions and there’s zero evidence for that.

    In exchange we learned about tens of thousands of civilian deaths caused by the US military that had been concealed from the public for no justifiable reason. The people in Iraq and Afghanistan know damn well about this, so it isn’t “helping the enemy” to publish it. It only helps us stop the atrocity and if that doesn’t help the troops in harms way, then maybe the US should still be in Vietnam too and Ellsberg should be in prison.

  156. 156.

    Ben Franklin

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):

    *grin*

    “When strong, avoid them. If of high morale, depress them. Seem humble to fill them with conceit. If at ease, exhaust them. If united, separate them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.”

    What stage are we at, asswipe?

  157. 157.

    clayton

    @The Tragically Flip: Yes, I remember way back in 2004 how worried Greenwald was about civilian deaths.

    I almost lost my goddamn job over my problems with the start of that goddamn war.

    Grennwald and you fuckwits have only cared since 2005 at best.

    Show me where Greenwald cared about the run up to the Iraq war in 2003.

    You can’t because he didn’t care enough before 2005.

  160. 160.

    burnspbesq

    @John Cole:

    Christ on a crutch, yourself. No one is arguing that the circumstances of Manning’s confinement were appropriate. But that is utterly irrelevant to whether Manning is guilty of the offenses with which he has been charged.

    Has it not occurred to you that the Army has learned from the Marines’ mistake?

  161. 161.

    Danny

    @The Tragically Flip:
    Isn’t it a bit absurd that you pretent to know what was in all those 250 000 documents, and who and what their release might have hurt? Manning didnt know either. Those kids who pushed that shopping cart – maybe there wasn’t someone down there and maybe there was. It was a crime either way.

  162. 162.

    Spectre

    Wtf? He spends most of the time on bullshit pop culture topics, and takes forever with the SNL dude interview, then goes to new rules like 12 minutes early?

    With this panel? Maher fail.

  163. 163.

    clayton

    @Ben Franklin: asswipe? Late to the whole fucking entire game and you call names?

    Here’s a name for you: LATE

    This is nothing new. Yes, Americans have killed innocent people. So have lots of other countries. Why is your first response to name call and condemn.

    Please tell me about how you rallied against Israel supporting apartheid and South Africa having the bomb.

  165. 165.

    burnspbesq

    @clayton:

    Logic fail.

    Greenwald wasn’t blogging in 2003. You don’t know, and can’t know, what he might have written if he had been writing at that time.

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

  167. 167.

    The Tragically Flip

    @clayton:

    He broke the law. He made quite a number of people’s jobs more difficult and risky. Do you seriously think that diplomacy in any age needs this sort of shit?

    The cables more or less led directly to the downfall of 3 Arab dictators and gave tens of millions of people some kind of chance at actual democracy. Yes, I’d say that’s worth embarassing a bunch of Ambassadors whose real opinions of various world leaders were exposed. For that matter, the impact on Iceland 250,000 or so people probably makes the discomfort of every US diplomat in service worth it.

    But as I peruse the list it really is a rogue’s gallery of fuckery that we are all better off knowing than not knowing about. Cynics long said that much if not all of US foreign policy was about helping corporations, and they’re not far wrong.

    Oh, and let’s not forget Hillary ordering spying of the UN Secretary General.

  169. 169.

    brantl

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):

    That’s a nice reflection of our government’s value system (similar to the way that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized, while those who expose them are aggressively prosecuted).

    Jeebus, “immunized”? They just charged Bales with 17 counts of capital murder.

    Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Stuck? “that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized“, not the walkaround killer.

  170. 170.

    Ben Franklin

    I almost lost my goddamn job over my problems with the start of that goddamn war.

    Do you even fucking hear yourself?

  172. 172.

    The Tragically Flip

    @clayton:

    Show me where Greenwald cared about the run up to the Iraq war in 2003.

    First, we’re talking about Manning, not Greenwald, but I fail to see anything but a full ad hominem argument in this. Is Greenwald wrong today because he wasn’t right in 2003? Lots of people came around to view the war as wrong, it would be better if we all knew immediately, but I really fail to see the point of hating on people who have come around.

  173. 173.

    clayton

    @Ben Franklin: Yeah, I do.

    It’s like this “Ben”, Greenwald has no skin in this at all.

    I do. Manning did something that made many people’s job more difficult and dangerous.

    There are other ways to do what he did. There is a history in our country of that very thing.

    He didn’t have to sell everyone out.

    Greenwald didn’t care about politics until December of 2005. Check it out. It’s true. So for him now to get a platform like BJ is ridiculous. That you sign on is worse.

  175. 175.

    Bruce S

    I think Manning should be prosecuted. I also think his treatment was disgraceful.

    I’d like to hear a full-on defense of the treatment of Manning from Stuck-in-Stupid. ‘Cuz he’s got those large balls…

    That’s the crux.

    Lame assholes like Stuck and eemom are too fucked up to hold two ideas that rub against each other a bit in their head at the same time. It’s enough to hate Glenn Greenwald. Explains the fucking world… If Cole is “Broder”, Stuck is “Brietbart.” A hysterical partisan screaming at anyone who doesn’t conform to his single-minded agenda.

  176. 176.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @The Tragically Flip:

    In exchange we learned about tens of thousands of civilian deaths caused by the US military that had been concealed from the public for no justifiable reason.

    I’d like to see some evidence of that. Or are you just talking out of your ass.

    Name some “ongoing operations” that were compromised by the Iraq or Afghanistan document dumps. The Afghan diaries cover material ending Dec 2009 and were published July 2010.

    Now this is epically stupid. Like I would have direct knowledge of something like that. And the good news is, I don’t have to. Creating the potential for compromising operations is the question of relevance. Even the military likely won’t know if the information has helped the Taliban, unless maybe if CNN interviews some Taliban leaders.

    and Ellsberg should be in prison.

    Ellsberg actually read the Pentagon Papers, and edited out names and any sources and methods, before giving them to the NYT;s. Neither Manning nor Assange made that effort. And Ellsberg was whistleblowing on a narrative of action reports from the field.

    The people in Iraq and Afghanistan know damn well about this, so it isn’t “helping the enemy” to publish it

    What the world got, was in toto after action reports, that can be mined for any sort of patterns of ops. And I haven’t mentioned Iraq, as I am talking about Afghanistan.

    And the military has formally charged Manning with “lending aid and comfort to the enemy” and I doubt they would do that, unless they have some material evidence of what they allege, and have to prove in court.

    Sorry, but the evidence is not that Manning released these documents as solely an act “of conscience” but more like in part, a poorly thought out hissy fit for other reasons.

    I think this entire hero worship of Bradley Manning is just creepy.

  178. 178.

    ChrisNYC

    @The Tragically Flip: The idea that the release of the cables caused the Arab Spring is such nonsense. The Egyptian movement was started in March 2008, well before the Wikileaks release. When the Tunisian fruit vendor set himself on fire in December 2009 (sorry 2010), the Egyptian movement already had an entire network of activists ready and organized and hooked up with the Muslim Brotherhood (for logistics) that they activated when that death provoked such a huge amount of attention. Also too, millions of Arabs out in squares and (ahem!) NATO in Libya had a bit to do with it. Geez. Americans take all the credit!

  179. 179.

    Soonergrunt

    Auto-trolling. Masterfully done. I hope one day to be as good as you, John.
    @MosesZD: No, it isn’t abnormal at all. Since the consolidation of Pretrial Confinement and short term nonviolent incarceration facilities in the military, It wasn’t remotely unusual for PFC Manning to be assigned to the Quantico Brig since that is the consolidated east coast PTC facility, and his convening authority is Commanding General, Military District of Washington. In fact, there are convicted personnel from MDW serving their sentences at Quantico right now. What’s abnormal is assigning Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Confinement facility when his Convening Authority is in Washington, DC.
    What was highly unusual was the fact that the MCB Quantico commander overrode his own staff and Naval/USMC regulations, ostensibly to prevent Manning from committing or attempting to commit suicide. Repeatedly.

    The only thing more amusing than Cole’s self trolling is the way that so many of you jump to conclusions and make connections that have no grounding in empirical fact and could easily be refuted with this tool called Google. Perhaps you’ve heard of it.

  180. 180.

    Ben Franklin

    @clayton:

    That you sign on is worse.

    huh? I don’t give a flying fuck for Greenwald. He’s a narcissist, but he
    does provide antithetical rationale for thinking purposes. You do understand that it’s important to question teh authority, right?

    Get your head on straight or someone is going to shit down your neck.

  181. 181.

    eemom

    @Spectre:

    Wtf? He spends most of the time on bullshit pop culture topics, and takes forever with the SNL dude interview, then goes to new rules like 12 minutes early?
    With this panel? Maher fail.

    hmm…..not sure, but I THINK this might mean (1) Maher dissed Greenwald, and (2) Greenwald dick sucker haz a sad.

  182. 182.

    clayton

    @Bruce S: Bruce, I guess you have never lived abroad or held any post that was risky :)

    It’s always easy to judge from here.

    Look, have you ever been an asshole who blew the shit off of your whole country’s intel like that? Do you think that is okay? Do you think there are levels of solitary?

    Or are you just outraged?

    I for one can’t believe that JOHN FUCKING COLE juxtaposed this to what happened in FLA.

    YOU ARE AN ASS JOHN.

  183. 183.

    clayton

    Manning is alive. no?

    I black teenager is dead.

    What is wrong with you Greenwald people?

  184. 184.

    Ben Franklin

    Perhaps you’ve heard of it.

    I’ve also heard that simpletons make simple, the complex.

    Try pulling your head out your military ass.

  185. 185.

    Spectre

    @eemom:

    Nah. Greenwald got in a decent amount of time, and destroyed Sullivan and Maher each time the topic was interesting. Mostly though Maher just choose to talk about things like Tim Tebow, whether “one man shows” are good, whether celebrity is good, and whether Sullivan is a “true christian”.

    It’s nice to see you result to homophobic abuse though. Quite revealing about you actually.

  186. 186.

    Bruce S

    clayton – you’ve pretty much ceded that you’re an asshole not to be taken seriously. Manning should be prosecuted. But you’re justifying any kind of treatment. You’ve served up the same psycho rationalizations I heard for Abu Ghraib. It’s not even a slippery slope when you’re that comfortable with totally glib shit. The comment re: “Cole juxtaposed this to Florida” and raising the death of Trayvon as some sort of rationalization is beyond stupid.

  187. 187.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @Bruce S:

    I’d like to hear a full-on defense of the treatment of Manning from Stuck-in-Stupid.

    Why don’t you to hell, and there has not been a Stuck full on defense of Manning’s treatment in jail. Just the opposite, when we learned from the investigation that the suicide watch was not called for.

    Bruce, you really are a pitiful sumbitch, with nothing to offer but lame pile ons for people you don’t like. It is pathetic, and seems headed for a case of blog stalking. Now go fuck yourself with soul mate corner stone’s dick, when Franklin is done with it.

    And it is always comical, the way you’ve worked out as the Balloon Juice blog snob.

    I didn’t write this post citing GG, and do. not . care about the lying weasel.

  188. 188.

    Corner Stone

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):

    Creating the potential for compromising operations is the question of relevance

    Is this your “wooden nickles” moment of this thread?

    “Relatively I ask seashells to determine their position in things. Plus, peanut butter. And maybe silk.”

  189. 189.

    clayton

    @Ben Franklin:

    but he does provide antithetical rationale for thinking purposes

    Seriously you think that?

    I remember posting as a female on his old blog and it drew out people like jwest, but I don’t remember you. I think you might have missed Greenwald saying no to a chance to test his “theories”.

    YMMV

  192. 192.

    Bruce S

    Stuck – your entire effort here is a fucking rationalization of Manning’s treatment.

    But you’re too fucking chickenshit to acknowledge it. The post is about Manning’s treatment. You are outraged that this is noted with concern.

    So go fuck yourself, you little weasel.

    And for something you “don’t care about” you seem to have worked yourself into Brietbart levels of apoplexy.

  193. 193.

    Clime Acts

    @eemom:

    Who is your other “semi sane” FPer, Sir Timothy?

    You’ll laugh, of course: COLE!

    Here me out, hear me out…I propose that Cole is sane but volatile, emo, and easily swayed. After each display of one of those three qualities, he generally swings back to equilibrium fairly quickly.

    So what’s YOUR “real” name, Ms. eemom?

  194. 194.

    clayton

    @Bruce S:

    And for something you “don’t care about” you seem to have worked yourself into Brietbart levels of apoplexy.

    That doesn’t work here.

    “Bruce” your guy didn’t care when George W. Bush was killing Brown people.

    No really, he didn’t.

    Your best bud didn’t care at all.

    I’m sorry you have to find out about it here. Really I am.

    But Greenwald didn’t care. Until December of 2005.

    Until he needed income.

    I’m sorry to burst your bubble.

    I am.

  195. 195.

    The Tragically Flip

    @Danny:

    Isn’t it a bit absurd that you pretent to know what was in all those 250 000 documents, and who and what their release might have hurt? Manning didnt know either. Those kids who pushed that shopping cart – maybe there wasn’t someone down there and maybe there was. It was a crime either way.

    That’s a fair question, and suggests negligence on Manning’s part. I don’t know what was in his head, possibly he thought the greater good of what he believed he was doing made that risk worth it, possibly Assange persuaded him that Wikileaks would do that filtering (which he did attempt to do in partnering with the newspapers). His defence may speak to this at trial.

    I don’t actually object to prosecuting Manning, but in no way does he deserve a harsh sentence for this. Organizations like the Military have a legitimate interest in ensuring people entrusted secrets don’t leak them, but it doesn’t make him history’s greatest monster, or deserving of summary execution the way some people here have called for. He’s not a “traitor” nor was he giving aid and comfort to the enemy. He (allegedly) broke laws, but evidently did so out of conscience and benign motives. That’s something that should be taken seriously at sentencing if he’s convicted.

    I also think that the consequences of what he did aren’t abstract or theoretical exercises anymore, this stuff has been out there for over a year, and almost all the impacts we know about have been positive. That could be just luck, or it could be that in reviewing a lot of the material before deciding to leak it, Manning correctly surmised the general nature of what was in there, and that harm would rarely come from its disclosure. The chat logs have him saying he’s been reading a lot of it, and it could just be he got the gist of what was in most of it.

  196. 196.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @Bruce S:

    whether or not Manning is guilty of the crimes he is alleged to have committed, has nothing to do with his treatment in jail, you fulminating, lying POS. And noting that Greenwald is once again lying out his ass, with claims that Bales is getting “immunized”, is not “Breitbart levels of apoplexy.

    Now tell us all again of your superior self running thread to thread stamping your precious feet, declaring BJ is beneath you. And Stuck and eemom are stupid stupid stupid, like some kind of demented broken record. Now stamp yer some more clown.

  197. 197.

    Bruce S

    clayton – I hate to break the news to you but I don’t give a shit about Glenn Greenwald.

    Meanwhile, you’ve bared your sorry soul with your comments that, in effect, Manning deserves whatever he gets. Deal with that. It’s 2012 and you’re still engaged in pathological thinking.

    But go do this soul-searching in a quiet place, because your responses to me are beyond irrelevant and just prove my point about you’re being a dickwad.

  198. 198.

    Bruce S

    Stuck – you’re a worthless ass, but I will do you the favor of pointing out that Greenwald doesn’t claim that Bales has been immunized. Up your reading skills. And take a fucking tranquilizer.

    As for “broken records”, you break that record every time anyone crosses your fine little line.

  199. 199.

    clayton

    @The Tragically Flip:

    and almost all the impacts we know about have been positive

    You know nothing of diplomacy.

    I know you think that John Cole agrees with you and all that, but, your and John Cole’s attitude have made diplomacy more difficult.

    Why can’t you Greenwald people understand that it is a big world with lots of problems and that Obama and Hillary are working double time to make things better?

    Why can’t you understand how to deal with other parts of the world without inflaming things?

    Why does John Cole and Glenn Greenwald get more worked up about people killed on the other side of the planet and less so about one of our own?

  200. 200.

    Bruce S

    “Why does John Cole and Glenn Greenwald get more worked up about people killed on the other side of the planet and less so about one of our own?”

    When did Pat Buchanan start posting here under “clayton”?

  202. 202.

    Spectre

    @Bruce S:

    Remember, these are the same posters that, along with ABL, accused Cole of laughing at rape victims, and running a racist blog.

  205. 205.

    eemom

    @Clime Acts:

    My real name is Elaine.

    And actually, I guessed after I asked the question that you probably meant Cole.

    And so, Timmy, you and I take our place in the annals of history’s Strangest [Virtual] Bedfellows, BJ Edition….

  206. 206.

    clayton

    @Spectre:

    Remember, these are the same posters that, along with ABL, accused Cole of laughing at rape victims, and running a racist blog.

    So you know the answer that Bruce is clueless to?

    You are clever.

  207. 207.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @Bruce S:

    And take a fucking tranquilizer.And take a fucking tranquilizer.

    Your the one blustering into this thread spouting bullshit and mouth breathing spittle. Do you have even an ounce of self awareness of your behavior on this blog, or any idea of the mountain size projection you exhibit. Therapy can help that.

  208. 208.

    Bruce S

    Stuck – go have a drink with your buddy “clayton.” You’re in great company.

    Okay, now I’m totally bored with this inane crap. You’ll have to jerk yourself off for excitement.

  210. 210.

    Corner Stone

    @Spectre:

    Remember, these are the same posters that, along with ABL, accused Cole of laughing at rape victims, and running a racist blog.

    And wondering aloud why they “stayed for so long”.

    Well, I think that’s an easy answer at this point.

  212. 212.

    Spectre

    @Bruce S:

    Arguing with the Obama-can-do-no-wrong partisans, is like playing chess with a pigeon.

    Even if you destroy them, they’ll simply take a shit on the board, knock the pieces over, and then strut around chirping that they’ve won

  213. 213.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @Bruce S:

    Okay, now I’m totally bored with this inane crap

    LOL, right on cue, Mr. Personality turns up his nose at us Obot heathen rabble, and sweeps off stage. I would call you Scarlett, but we already have one of those on this blog.

    Ah heck, I’m gonna name you that anyways.

  214. 214.

    clayton

    @Spectre: And who were you circa 2005 on the UT blog, hmmm?

    Gleenbots are all the same to me.

    Except that none of them helped Mona. Or should I say hypatia? None of these Glenn bots now the background and will cry like little piggies when they get called on it.

    Tell me Gleenbots “Dear Glenn Learder” where were you around December 2005?

    Not here and not on UT.

    But jwest was. I give him that.

  216. 216.

    clayton

    Cole, did you help Mona when she needed it?

    Did you?

    Or did you just let her go out there and beg like Greenwald did?

    Just asking.

  218. 218.

    Brazilian Rascal

    Speaking as a foreigner…yeah, it’s quite distressing to see so many ‘liberals’ here gleefully turn into John Yoo the moment the ball is on their court. Jeez. No one is even asking you to do much other than ponder that maybe the president’s words about protecting whistleblowers may have been for show.

    But I guess if a few years from now the democrats feel like a punitive bombing run here to keep the war machine lubed or flex some muscle, several of you will be cheering for each bomb as long as it’s not a republican president hanging up the victory banner on the supercarrier.

  219. 219.

    clayton

    @Spectre: Which part? The part about Glenn abandoning Mona or the part about you not knowing anything about Greenwald pre-2009?

  220. 220.

    Spectre

    @Brazilian Rascal:

    I’m pretty sure plenty of posters in this thread would approve of Obama drone bombing Rio in hopes of killing Greenwald.

    That’s what annoys them most about this writing. That he highlights how the partisans are willing to sell out every principle they’ve ever preached.

    His critiques of Obama are all pretty excellent. If anything he holds back way too much.

  222. 222.

    clayton

    @Brazilian Rascal:

    it’s quite distressing to see so many ‘liberals’ here gleefully turn into John Yoo the moment the ball is on their court.

    Hi Glenn. Have you actually paid Mona for all for all of the help she gave you on UT?

  227. 227.

    clayton

    @Spectre:

    I’m pretty sure plenty of posters in this thread would approve of Obama drone bombing Rio in hopes of killing Greenwald.

    That’s what annoys them most about this writing. That he highlights how the partisans are willing to sell out every principle they’ve ever preached.

    His critiques of Obama are all pretty excellent. If anything he holds back way too much

    Hi Glenn!

  229. 229.

    The Tragically Flip

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):

    I’d like to see some evidence of that. Or are you just talking out of your ass.

    That you don’t know this tells me how facile your grasp of this topic is. It was a major headline revelation when they were published.

    Now this is epically stupid. Like I would have direct knowledge of something like that.

    The documents are public. You’re claiming “ongoing” operations were compromised. Yes, you could fucking know that because if they were you could point to a document that actually discussed an “ongoing” opertation and revealed key plans, codes, locations, troop numbers such that the enemy could actually use.

    Ellsberg actually read the Pentagon Papers, and edited out names and any sources and methods, before giving them to the NYT;s. Neither Manning nor Assange made that effort.

    Actually Assange did make an effort. He even partnered with major newspapers in attempting to do so when Wikileaks proved incapable of filtering that volume of info. He wasn’t entirely successful, but a great deal was blacked out post-leak.

    What the world got, was in toto after action reports, that can be mined for any sort of patterns of ops. And I haven’t mentioned Iraq, as I am talking about Afghanistan.

    Patterns of ops? Like the Taliban can’t track where past operations against them took place and do that pattern analysis anyway. This is really reaching for possible harm. The enemy knows where you’ve hit them.

    And the military has formally charged Manning with “lending aid and comfort to the enemy” and I doubt they would do that, unless they have some material evidence of what they allege, and have to prove in court.

    No, prosecutors never pile on charges that can’t really prove hoping to make something stick, and increase the pressure on the defendant to plea bargain.

    Sorry, but the evidence is not that Manning released these documents as solely an act “of conscience” but more like in part, a poorly thought out hissy fit for other reasons.

    Don’t be painfully reductive. People are complex with multiple motives for many things. The chatlogs (which I posted a snippet above) show he was concerned about the crimes he found in there. He was also a gay soldier living under DADT, and facing harassment for his effeminate habits. Making this a “hissy” fit ignores the litany of evidence that Manning was in fact, disturbed by the nature of the information he had access to. He complained about specific incidents to his superiors. He told a counselor it bothered him. The evidence leans far more toward ethically motivated whistle blowing that some kind of “get even” for DADT.

  231. 231.

    Danny

    @The Tragically Flip:

    That’s a fair question, and suggests negligence on Manning’s part. I don’t know what was in his head, possibly he thought the greater good of what he believed he was doing made that risk worth it

    Fair enough, but I’d argue that if you do something that you know full well is illegal and you’re aware that it is also reckless and may cause harm, then you should in fact be prepared to accept whatever appropriate punishment the law prescribes. That’s the choice you make.

    possibly Assange persuaded him that Wikileaks would do that filtering (which he did attempt to do in partnering with the newspapers). His defence may speak to this at trial.

    Perhaps, but I do believe the responsibility to filter the material lies with Manning here, does it not? I cant just grab a bunch of classified material, go to the WPost and say “Here! You sort it out!” and then claim whistleblower protection.

    I don’t actually object to prosecuting Manning, but in no way does he deserve a harsh sentence for this.

    Shouldn’t the question at this point be: what is he guilty of; what can he be shown guilty of?

    Organizations like the Military have a legitimate interest in ensuring people entrusted secrets don’t leak them, but it doesn’t make him history’s greatest monster, or deserving of summary execution the way some people here have called for.

    Again, I think the issue is what crimes – or offences under the UCMJ, i guess – is he guilty of, can he be shown to be guilty of. Was Mumia “history’s greatest monster” if he did in fact kill a police officer in a shoot-out, after centuries of slavery and Jim Crow? Is that question relevant to whether he’s guilty of murder?

    He’s not a “traitor”

    Agreed, I think.

    nor was he giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

    Is he guilty of “aiding the enemy”? You don’t know that; that’s to be decided. If information got published online, where Al Qaeda had access, and that information did in fact aid them in a substantial way then maybe he is…

    He (allegedly) broke laws, but evidently did so out of conscience and benign motives.

    Ah but people who shoot abortion doctors do so out of ‘benign’ motives. See, they’re preventing murderers from murdering.

    That’s something that should be taken seriously at sentencing if he’s convicted.

    I could see that as a fair case for maybe a Presidential pardon or something. But what’s the difference with Pollard then? He was just a guy who loved Israel really, really much and the Israelis think its a TRAVESTY that this friend of Israel has to rot away in jail.

    I also think that the consequences of what he did aren’t abstract or theoretical exercises anymore, this stuff has been out there for over a year, and almost all the impacts we know about have been positive.

    I think that is to be decided in court-martial, right? If it can be shown that he aided the enemy as per the definition in UCMJ then he will be found guilty. I cant argue that all the consequences of me stealing your money that we know of were great – you had to take a second job and you ended up with a new career! – thus I was not guilty of theft.

    That could be just luck, or it could be that in reviewing a lot of the material before deciding to leak it

    250 000 documents. Think about it. But either way, that’s to be decided in court. If Manning can show that what he was doing was protected whistle-blowing, then he’ll do fine. But I doubt it, frankly.

    Manning correctly surmised the general nature of what was in there, and that harm would rarely come from its disclosure.

    I surmise your talking out your behind. Your prejudging the findings of the court martial.

    But imho, it would have been wiser if Manning had only released things that a) he had read, b) he could and had judged there was a clear public interest to know, and c) would not harm individuals, operations or strategic interests in a way that outweighed the public interest.

    It doesnt look like he did either of those things and therefore my 2 cents say that he will be probably be found guilty of the various offenses he’s accused of in the court martial… But we’ll see.

  233. 233.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Spectre: Bullshit, this is truly a both sides do it clusterfuck. Embarrassing to watch, really.

    Manning was mistreated. The Navy has admitted it. He has since been transferred and the mistreatment has stopped. Whether he was mistreated or not does not affect his guilt or innocence. his case is proceeding to trial. His counsel appears to be competent and experienced.

    Bales has been treated properly, or so it seems. Should he be mistreated to make things even?

  234. 234.

    Spectre

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It’s hard to be a both sides deal, when the Anti-Greenwald Jihadis make up 99% of the frequent posters in these threads.

    We’ve had people talk about how Bradley Manning should be shot in this thread. I think at that point, one can only mock the partisans.

  236. 236.

    clayton

    @Spectre: Glenn you remember UT and hypatia, no?

    (You must know that Glenn is infamous for sock-puppets, right?)

    It’s like an own goal.

    You know what that is, right?

  237. 237.

    balki

    @clayton: What’s with your obsession with Greenwald and 2005? Are you aware that the UT blog wasn’t even launched until October 2005? Are you just mad that he didn’t start blogging about the war until December (2 months later)? He was running a law firm and not blogging prior to that. Are you saying that, because he didn’t have a blog before that, he didn’t care about the war?

    In comment 189 you claim that you used to post as a female on his blog back in the olden days. I don’t get it: is your self-admitted sock-puppetry supposed to give you credibility? Why would you brag about that?

  239. 239.

    Corner Stone

    @clayton: Mona? Sure I remember her. She slung coffee and hash at the diner on the corner of 57th street and Austin.
    Super nice. I always tipped her a little extra because she had a daughter at home.
    Sweet girl.

  241. 241.

    Spectre

    @clayton:

    False. You got owned a while back and have yet to respond to the arguments that were laid out.

    Your cowardice is legendary.

  246. 246.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: Hey, back in the day, my take was that we didn’t know whether what was happening was par for the course for prisoners, in which case it was an indictment of our prison system, or if it it was Manning specific, in which case, absent legal justification, it was abusive treatment. That question has been answered. I think that his treatment warrants an investigation and there should be consequences for those responsible.

    At the same time, based on what I have read, I think that Manning will probably and deservedly be convicted of a number of crimes relating to misuse of intelligence. His mistreatment during pretrial confinement should be taken in to consideration during any sentencing proceedings.

  247. 247.

    Clime Acts

    @eemom:

    Hi Elaine.

    Yes, we have a long and tortured history.

    That’s why it’s special. :D

    Now…please post another virulent, GG-hating comment, complete with insectoid and scatalogical references. They titillate me so.

  248. 248.

    Spectre

    @clayton:

    Already posted multi-times in this very thread noobie! Do I need to start posting in crayon for you?

    You’re in a hole. Stop hitting yourself in the head with a shovel.

  249. 249.

    clayton

    Fuck you guys. Its the “someone is wrong on the internet” time for me.

    Glenn didn’t care about any of this until 2005.

    If you disagree, show me where he cared before 2005.

    John Cole can.

  250. 250.

    Joe Boehmouth

    Am I the only one who is glad Manning did the docs dump AND acknowledges that he committed a crime AND thinks it’s likely that the military correctional system is treating him vindictively?

    We learned a lot of valuable things about what our foreign policy apparatus is doing. Manming took a big risk in dumping the docs and he got caught. I don’t think he souldn’t do serious time for it. But I still feel grateful to him, and intend to watc his back.

  251. 251.

    balki

    @clayton: I asked you a question that directly relates to your 2005 claim. Why do you expect there to be a record of Greenwald’s opposition to the war prior to 2005 when he didn’t start blogging until October 2005?

  253. 253.

    Corner Stone

    @clayton: Denigrate? I thought she was awesome. Always got the pancakes and eggs over easy out right on time.
    Sometimes when it was slow we’d discuss Descartes and the argument that Time was a concept created by mankind because his brain was too tiny to conceive of the Cartesian coordinate system.
    You do her a disservice by slagging her here as some kind of totem as your jihad against Greater Greenwaldia.

  259. 259.

    clayton

    Glenn was not all about civil this and dead that in 2005 or 2004 or 2003.

    Glenn didn’t care.

    He cares NOW?

  260. 260.

    balki

    @clayton: Well, now you’re just making your trolling obvious. A little more subtlety and you could have kept this thread going for another 150 comments.

  262. 262.

    clayton

    I almost lost my job over the Iraq war.

    Glenn Greenwald was defending a white supremasist during that time.

    Later, he abused his researcher. I thought there might have been some Mona supporters here.

    That’s a negative.

    Glenn is just using you, John Cole.

  268. 268.

    balki

    @clayton: So what if he was defending a white supremacist? He was an attorney. Everyone is entitled to defense, regardless of how heinous their views may be. How does the fact that you almost lost your job relate to Glenn? And why should we give a shit?

  270. 270.

    Spectre

    @clayton:

    Want more of this shit son!? I’ll out debate that ass all night, like I’ve been doing all thread long. You’ve still yet to respond to the arguments! lulz@u!

  271. 271.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @danielx: I know you are just trolling, but we are just a week past the anniversary of My Lai. Some shit ain’t funny.

  272. 272.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    That you don’t know this tells me how facile your grasp of this topic is. It was a major headline revelation when they were published.

    I was talking about Afghanistan, since my entire commentary on this thread is about Afghanistan. I am not surprised that 15, 000 had not been counted in Iraq.

    The documents are public. You’re claiming “ongoing” operations were compromised. Yes, you could fucking know that because if they were you could point to a document that actually discussed an “ongoing” opertation and revealed key plans, codes, locations, troop numbers such that the enemy could actually use.

    No. I’m claiming on going operations could be compromised, and I can see why you’re a GG acolyte with the subtle misreading to make an invalid point.

    Actually Assange did make an effort. He even partnered with major newspapers in attempting to do so when Wikileaks proved incapable of filtering that volume of info. He wasn’t entirely successful, but a great deal was blacked out post-leak.

    He started to make the effort, then said fuckit and dumped all the Afghan docs at the same time. Claiming he didn’t have time to vet the docs, and wait on the media people he sent them too. It caused a revolt in his own group over his reckless handling of the Afghan documents, concerning vetting to protect the innocent.

    And I’m the one with facile knowledge on this topic?

    Patterns of ops? Like the Taliban can’t track where past operations against them took place and do that pattern analysis anyway. This is really reaching for possible harm. The enemy knows where you’ve hit them.

    I’m an army vet. And you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. And in the end, it doesn’t matter legally, what the damage was from the leaks. And again, the military has charged Manning with ‘lending aid and comfort” to the enemy. I doubt they would have done that without the evidence to prove it is court.

    @The Tragically Flip:

    Cool, you cite GG for your evidence. sorry, I don’t believe a word the man says. cole does though. Maybe youze two can compare notes.

    Don’t be painfully reductive. People are complex with multiple motives for many things

    And why I said “solely’ on motives of conscience about the war, which is what you have been opining on this thread. Without considering any other motive as well. Learn to read.

    Listen, I hope that Bradley gets a fair trial, and if he deserves breaks for whatever reason, then I am for that. What pisses me off is people like you and GG blowing smoke up our asses, to apologize for what this person allegedly did. With all sorts of deflective bullshit, to steer away from the basic facts of the case. As some kind of whistleblowing hero. And twisting around facts to do so.

    This culty behavior is beyond creepy, and it has manifested itself in other ways than through GG, though he is one of the main culprit of misleading punditry.

  273. 273.

    danielx

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Omnes, i’m goofing without humor. Anybody – any country – in a war commits war crimes. That’s what war does.

    It is cruelty, and you cannot refine it.

  274. 274.

    clayton

    @balki:

    So what if he was defending a white supremacist?

    You never read UT, right? You don’t know who Mona was/is.

    Otherwise you would have contributed to her cause.

  277. 277.

    balki

    @clayton: Actually, I read UT from the beginning. But I didn’t read the comments. I have no clue who Mona is. Why don’t you fill me in?

  280. 280.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero): I came in late and read through it before I wrote anything. Tempers snapped. Friendships severed. Names called. This had all of them. Oh, and the people talking past one another. Lovely. BTW, I’ll take you up on that offer.

  281. 281.

    Danny

    @clayton:
    Oh, but he did care about your 2nd amendment right to arm yourself in defense against ‘government tyranny’. He did care about the ‘intense dislike’ of Bush over his ‘steadfastness and refusal to play by the long-standing rules of the Washington establishment’ by the Washington press corps. It made ‘media drones’ like Seymor Hersh feel ‘impotent’.

    Worth a full quote:

    So Hersh thinks it’s “alarming” that he’s been writing anti-war articles for several years now and Bush still hasn’t caved in his support for the war. We’re supposed to be scared and outraged because Bush doesn’t watch Wolf Blitzer interviews and then change his mind afterwards, or that Bush still supports the war even after Hersh writes another article based on anonymous officials who have come to him in order to attack Bush’s policies.

    And when Hersh complains that Bush is inured to “facts,” what he plainly means is that Bush doesn’t accept Hersh’s view of Iraq. In sum, Bush is supposed to know that he has to listen when the Washington press elite speaks, and his refusal to do so means that he is either pathologically stubborn, certifiably crazy, or a religious fanatic beyond any reason. Certain elements on the Left hungrily eat up this cheap and easy caricature.

    Ever since he took office, Bush has refused to play by many of the long-standing rules of the Washington game. He doesn’t fire his cabinet secretaries and aides when editorial boards and other politicians demand that he do so. The appearance of as-yet-unproven scandals doesn’t cause him to dump whomever is said to be associated with them. He doesn’t abandon or soften his positions when polls begin to show an increasing public unrest with those positions or when pundits begin insinuating that weakening political support makes those positions untenable.

    And, most significantly, he doesn’t go out of his way, Clinton-like, to make sure that reporters — or anyone else — feel that their opinions are listened to and cherished. If anything, the opposite is true: Bush has never tried to hide that he has very little regard for the opinions of the Washington media establishment; that he could not care any less about winning their approval; and that the tried-and-true pressure tactics which they have used for decades to force White Houses to change course have no effect on Bush, unless it’s to make him dig in even deeper.

    The New York Daily News, in an article today that is largely critical of the White House, makes exactly this point:

    Even as his poll numbers tank, however, Bush is described by aides as still determined to stay the course. He resists advice from Republicans who fear disaster in next year’s congressional elections, and rejects criticism from a media establishment he disdains.

    “The President has always been willing to make changes,” the senior aide said, “but not because someone in this town tells him to – NEVER!”

    For better or for worse, Bush arrived in Washington with a firmly entrenched set of convictions about himself and the world, and the self-important permanent Washington media establishment has not been able to shake those convictions no matter how hard they try. They thus feel irrelevant and impotent and they are not happy about it. They put up with it after 9/11 when a combination of Bush’s towering popularity and their own fear-driven worship of Bush’s cowboy swagger kept those resentments in check. But as 9/11 fades further into the distant past along with the aura of Bush’s invulnerability, these resentments are blooming in plain sight.

    Steadfastness or stuborness, like Clinton’s eagerness to accomodate the positions of others, can be a good or a bad trait in a President. But for the preening, hubristic, status-obsessed Washington media elite, what matters is the influence and power they have, and in this respect, Bush’s refusal to grant them their rightful place is nothing but a source of anger.

    The media sees shifting public opinion in Iraq as their big chance to show that their power has not waned. They are committed to milking public discomfort over Iraq in order to show the Administration that they still rule Washington. And the longer Bush refuses to adhere to their demands — or, as Hersch revealingly complained, the longer they “can’t get to him maybe with (their) views” — the angrier and more frustrated they are going to become.

    Oh yes, Papa Bear Bush made Glenn tingly enough to consider starting loving the bomb.

    Also, too: Here he argues that while the rest of the world may hate us over the Iraq war, we shouldn’t give a sh-t because they just dont understand the threat we are under from radical islamists, and we should feel free to deal with that in whatever way we see fit. Caring about international opinion is pure folly.

    Oh yes indeed – johnny-come-lately to TEH ANTIWAR, never got what that whole Iraq thing was about.

  284. 284.

    Skippy the Wondermule

    Agree or disagree with him, Greenwald is smarter than almost anyone who posts a comment here, including me.

  287. 287.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: This thread has been full of dumbass, hot-headed comments from all sides. It is probably best that people just walk away.

    ETA: That was what I was trying to convey. It seems I was unsuccessful. Oh, well.

  290. 290.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: Bullshit. there was one fucking side here slamming the fucking cage to discredit what was right and actually fucking factual.
    And there was a contigent that said, “Excuse me? That shit is true. Not an opinion.”
    And it’s the same god damned authoritarian motherfucking assholes here claiming Manning should just get brain panned and be done with it. They’re fine with that.

    Don’t motherfucking tell me it’s a “both sides” situation. There is an objective factual side here.

  291. 291.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @brantl:

    Jeebus, “immunized”? They just charged Bales with 17 counts of capital murder. Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Stuck? “that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized“, not the walkaround killer.

    One last response. I missed earlier. No, I don’t have a reading problem with this charge. As it is classic Greenwald to lie without clearly lying. He say’s Its “similar” to high government officials getting “immunized”, when it is obvious that there is nothing similar with that for someone charged with 17 counts of capital murder – and the dipshits here that can’t muster a critical thought, it goes right over their heads, that GG has made a allegation that is plausibly deniable. But an allegation none the less.

  293. 293.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: It quickly became a Greenwald thread where Manning was incidental. There are dipshits arguing that Manning should be summarily shot then drawn and quarted and there are dipshits suggesting that he be given the Medal of Freedom and Nobel Peace Prize at a joint ceremony.* I stated my opinion above. If you have issues with it, I am willing to discuss it. Otherwise, I stand by my view that this thread descended deep into assholery on both sides. YMMV.

    *Hyperbole.

  294. 294.

    Tony the Wonderhorse (formerly Skippy the Wondermule)

    Here’s my honest opinion. Manning was made an example of because there is video from the Bush years of Americans torturing Muslims TO DEATH, probably as they enjoyed themselves. I have met such men, honest, and they are sadists who love their work. If (when actually) such video gets out, it will be the end of the American Empire and the beginning of the next round of terrorism. We will be proved to be the Great Satan, it will be over and we will have lost.

    Once upon a time I loved America. Let’s hope the world ends in December and we can just avoid this shit.

  295. 295.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus: What’s wrong with you? There’s no equivalence here.
    The action, legality or illegality of the action is irrelevant to the subsequent treatment.
    We can’t do something to someone just because we don’t like what they did.
    Once that is past, there is no equivalence to this thread.
    There is nothing to argue about.

  296. 296.

    different-church-lady

    @Soonergrunt:

    The only thing more amusing than Cole’s self trolling is the way that so many of you jump to conclusions and make connections that have no grounding in empirical fact

    So, what you’re saying here is you are not aware of all internet traditions?

  297. 297.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: Apparently I am an authoritarian asshole or a Broderian asshole. Your choice. If you don’t know how arguments run, especially those with gadflies like you trying to goad people into pushing further… Ah, but then you do. Tempers flare. You push buttons. People say stupid shit. You giggle.

    I am not getting trapped into defending statements with which I don’t agree. Cheers.

  301. 301.

    boss bitch

    @The Tragically Flip:

    The cables more or less led directly to the downfall of 3 Arab dictators and gave tens of millions of people some kind of chance at actual democracy.

    Get the fucking fuck out of here with that bullshit. You are crediting Manning with the Arab Spring? Are you fucking kid me right now? Holy Shit!

  302. 302.

    different-church-lady

    @Skippy the Wondermule:

    Agree or disagree with him, Greenwald is smarter than almost anyone who posts a comment here, including me.

    Undoubtedly he is very good at making himself appear so, of that there is no question.

  304. 304.

    boss bitch

    @Skippy the Wondermule:

    Agree or disagree with him, Greenwald is smarter than almost anyone who posts a comment here, including me.

    Uhm, no. He’s very good at using big and inflammatory words to make a point. Whether that point is based on facts is another story.

  305. 305.

    eemom

    good heavens, WHAT have you people been up to? When last I left this thread, Timmy and I were setting a fine example of brotherhood from sea to shining sea, and now you’ve fucked it all up. Sheesh.

  312. 312.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @burnspbesq:

    But Greenwald did write this in the preface of his first book:

    During the lead-up to the invasion, I was concerned that the hell-bent focus on invading Iraq was being driven by agendas and strategic objectives that had nothing to do with terrorism or the 9/11 attacks. The overt rationale for the invasion was exceedingly weak, particularly given that it would lead to an open-ended, incalculably costly, and intensely risky preemptive war. Around the same time, it was revealed that an invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein had been high on the agenda of various senior administration officials long before September 11. Despite these doubts, concerns, and grounds for ambivalence, I had not abandoned my trust in the Bush administration. Between the president’s performance in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the swift removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact that I wanted the president to succeed, because my loyalty is to my country and he was the leader of my country, I still gave the administration the benefit of the doubt. I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to, and to the extent that I was able to develop a definitive view, I accepted his judgment that American security really would be enhanced by the invasion of this sovereign country.

  315. 315.

    Dylan

    What an embarrasing bunch of nitwits. No wonder US politics is so fvcked, if this is the standard of discourse inside the rational wing of the political spectrum.

  318. 318.

    Dylan

    @Dylan: Though, having said, that, we’re just electing the Australian version of the republican party here tonight, partly as a result of similar nitwittery here.

  319. 319.

    runt

    If Romney wins in November, it’ll be quite a spectacle to see how hordes of Balloon Juice commenters will suddenly rediscover their concern for human rights and the rule of law.

  320. 320.

    H Squared

    His analysis suggests that the crusader against the “inhumane treatment” of Manning thinks it’s only fare that Bales is treated the same way. If he’s truly against the treatment that Manning received, shouldn’t he be cheering that Bales isn’t being treated the same way?

  321. 321.

    El Cid

    @Danny:

    So if I had killed Bush in February 2003 then many people might say I did “improve” the world, right? But that would still have been a crime.

    Yes; and dispatching 10,000 ninja warriors to assassinate anyone in the USSR who looked like Stalin also would have been a crime, I think. I’m thinking that neither hypothetical is analogous to Manning’s criminal act. I once kept a library book without having paid for it, which was also a criminal act.

    But, of course, Manning didn’t kill anyone, and no one yet has, as far as I know, presented any evidence that the release of these fairly low-level documents led to the deaths of US servicemen or US officials.

    My point was different — it was a statement of the apparent net effect of these low-level diplomatic documents’ release — these weren’t troop movements or any other sort of action-movie type spycraft — and my own judgment of the value of their release versus my own life, and I weighed the net effect on the world as better than safeguarding my own life in the US military.

    If I weren’t willing to risk my life in exchange for the possible liberation of millions of people from brute (and frequently U.S.-backed) tyranny because I feared for my or fellow servicemembers’ lives, then I would have been some amoral freak who had no point serving in US forces anyway.

  322. 322.

    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)

    @El Cid:

    If I weren’t willing to risk my life in exchange for the possible liberation of millions of people from brute (and frequently U.S.-backed) tyranny because I feared for my or fellow servicemembers’ lives, then I would have been some amoral freak who had no point serving in US forces anyway.

    The difference being that you can know more now about the contents of that document dump than (alleged* doc-dumper)Manning knew then, when he just (allegedly*) dumped blindly. For all he knew, his (alleged*) actions could have compounded upon those millions of deaths- and who knows if they still won’t?

    *Because, per Greenwald, Lamo lies, that’s why! Way to cover all those bases, GG!

  323. 323.

    Samara Morgan

    Fuckwits of BJ unite .
    Why do we need WL?
    Goggle danger room Utah facility.
    Manning is a hero and WL is one of things between us and a totalitarian fascist state. Obama is another.

  324. 324.

    Danny

    @El Cid:

    Yes; and dispatching 10,000 ninja warriors to assassinate anyone in the USSR who looked like Stalin also would have been a crime, I think. I’m thinking that neither hypothetical is analogous to Manning’s criminal act. I once kept a library book without having paid for it, which was also a criminal act. But, of course, Manning didn’t kill anyone

    Point is, if you have a problem with what is a punishable offense under the UCMJ that’s one thing, and it transcends Manning. Asking that the UCMJ should not apply to Manning simply because you happen to like the guy and you thought what he did was right, is no different than asking that Pollard should go free.

    What about Sabu and the rest of lulzsec? Do you feel that they should go free as well?

    and no one yet has, as far as I know, presented any evidence that the release of these fairly low-level documents led to the deaths of US servicemen or US officials.

    That will be tried in Manning’s court martial. Do you disapprove of just letting that process play out and Manning getting whatever punishment due for what he’s found guilty of?

    My point was different—it was a statement of the apparent net effect of these low-level diplomatic documents’ release—these weren’t troop movements or any other sort of action-movie type spycraft—and my own judgment of the value of their release versus my own life, and I weighed the net effect on the world as better than safeguarding my own life in the US military.

    With all due respect, I don’t think you’re in a position to have an informed opinion on that. If you have at least a little faith in the court-martial system then I think a good idea would be to let them work out what damage he caused, if any. Assuming Manning did leak what he’s said to have leaked, I think it’s clear enough that he acted in a reckless manner which does not conform to a responsible act of whistle blowing. Manning, from what we’ve heard so far, was in no position to know what operations, interests and individuals might be put at risk by his actions. The volume of stuff that he leaked is simply to big. What damage he did cause is for the court-martial to determine.

    If I weren’t willing to risk my life in exchange for the possible liberation of millions of people from brute (and frequently U.S.-backed) tyranny because I feared for my or fellow servicemembers’ lives, then I would have been some amoral freak who had no point serving in US forces anyway.

    Well, if you were willing to do that, then you had better be prepared to take the punishment, right?

    And I still don’t get how you can consistently argue that you’re allowed to break the UCMJ (and in a way that does not legally qualify as whistle blowing) if your conscience tells you it’s the right thing to do, but you’re not allowed to gun down George Tiller if your conscience tells you that he is a mass murderer, legally murdering little children and getting away with it. Boils down to: “It’s alright to break the law for me, not for thee, because my moral sense is superior to yours.”

    You want the law to reflect your personal morality. Don’t you know by now why the world cannot and should not work like that?

  326. 326.

    General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to, and to the extent that I was able to develop a definitive view, I accepted his judgment that American security really would be enhanced by the invasion of this sovereign country.

    Bwwwwaahahahahhhhaaahahahah!! All this bullshit from a bootlicking authoritarian bushie Iraq war supporter, Glenn Greenwald. You can’t make this shit up. Though it does make for some kind of strange brew on a bloggy acid trip.

  327. 327.

    samara morgan

    lissen assclowns.
    the US is building the worlds largest data archive and unless you want karl rove to turn the land of the free and the home of the brave into the New Fascist States of Amerikkka you best stop whining about Obama.
    I, personally, would crawl over a bed of radioactive broken glass to get Obama re-elected.
    fuck you glenn greenwald and the john cole horse you rode in here on.

  328. 328.

    Tony the Wonderhorse (formerly Skippy the Wondermule)

    Intelligent people have the ability to see intelligence in others.

    Sincere but misguided people have the ability to deny intelligence in others.

    I have spoken. (bonus points for getting this)

  329. 329.

    Samara Morgan

    I see no intelligence. I see wistful thinking and nostalgie. I worked for those guys. They have no self deprecating humor.
    Still…..America, given Obama and WL, the least bad alternative.
    Someone is going to do it.

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