I’m dying to hear how this is a failed analysis:
After Bradley Manning was arrested on charges that he leaked documents to WikiLeaks, he was held in intense solitary confinement for ten months until political pressure finally forced his transfer to more humane conditions in Fort Leavenworth; the top U.N. torture official last week concluded that Manning’s treatment during those 10 months was “cruel and inhumane.” By stark contrast, Staff Sgt. Robert Bales — the prime suspect in the slaughter of 16 Afghan civilians — is already at Fort Leavenworth and is receiving this treatment:
Bales arrived at Fort Leavenworth last Friday and is being held in an isolated cell. He is “already being integrated into the normal pretrial confinement routine,” prison spokeswoman Rebecca Steed said.
The routine includes recreation, meals and cleaning the area where he is living. Steed said once his meetings with his attorneys are complete later in the week, Bales will resume the normal integration process.
An ABC News article back when Manning was transferred to Fort Leavenworth included these details:
The 150 inmates at the facility — including eight who are awaiting trial — are allowed three hours of recreation a day, she said, and three meals a day in a dining area.
That likely means that there will be some substantial interaction between Bales and Manning. Think about that: if you expose to the world previously unknown evidence of widespread wanton killing of civilians (as Manning allegedly did), then you will end up in the same place as someone who actually engages in the mass wanton killing of civilians (as Bales allegedly did), except that the one who committed atrocities will receive better treatment than the one who exposed them. That’s a nice reflection of our government’s value system (similar to the way that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized, while those who expose them are aggressively prosecuted). If the chat logs are to be believed, Manning decided to leak those documents because they revealed heinous war crimes that he could no longer in good conscience allow to be concealed, and he will now find himself next to a soldier who is accused of committing heinous war crimes.
How is he wrong?
Obligatory “OMG GREENWALD IS A FIREBAGGING PONCE WHO DOESN’T LIVE IN AMERICA” with the follow-up “YOU OBOTS WILL DEFEND ANYTHING OBAMA DOES.”
NobodySpecial
If you already knew the answer, then why ask the question?
sb
See, now I have nothing to say. You took all the good lines.
eemom
No, not that. Just that your monkey see-monkey post parroting of everything Greenwald says is getting kinda creepy.
Klaus
Because to vote for a president we have to love him to bits? People have a hard time accepting that this is about the game and not the players. So it is both true that a Dem prez does horrible stuff that most people are ok with because it doesn’t happen to them, and that said Dem prez is still miles better than the only alternatives on display. Drink it up!
Daaling
firebagging ponce is not strong enough. Fuckhead hits the right tone for me.
David Koch
He wasn’t held in solitary. He was held in a u-shaped cell block with others. He had reading materials, tee vee, daily showers, regular meals, and a exercise room.
WeeBey
How does he have a point?
Rapists get put in prison with people who smoke weed. So what?
Tax cheats are held in the same federal prison as the Unabomber. Does this somehow equate their crimes?
What the fuck, Cole? You aren’t this dumb.
eemom
@Daaling:
how DARE you take name of our dear departed fuckie in vain! [sob]
James Low
@Klaus: Confused here. Did JC say something about not voting for Obama in this post?
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
You’ve turned into your very own David Broder, both sides do it, on your very own blog. I don’t care what Greenwald has to say about anything, and on this topic, you neither. Yawn.
Oh, and please stop with the bullshit Bradley Manning whistleblew on “widespread wanton killings” when all the fucker did was download a bunch of raw info and give it to Wikileaks. I’m sure both Bales and Manning will hit it off famous for each other.
David Koch
Compare and Contrast
Why is it none of the usual suspects once complained about the other people held in Manning’s cell block at Quantico?
Righteous indignation, protests, and contributions for one, but not for others.
Now what does that selective outrage tell you?
gwangung
@James Low: No, but there’ll be dozens of follow up commenters doing essentially the same thing.
American voters aren’t into nuance.
Klaus
@James Low: That’s the argument for not criticizing a Dem prez, because criticism dampens enthusiasm and turnout, and thus enables a Repug admin.
Edit: Which might be true! And a Repug admin would very likely be worse, which also is true!
Lord Jesus Perm
Now that John’s big-upped Greenwald again, does this mean ABL steps in and contributes her part to this ridiculous dance?
John Cole
@WeeBey:
You apparently are, as you completely ignored the central point, which was that they fucked with Manning for 10 months, while they immediately moved Bales there. That was his point- the guy who exposed massacres was treated worse than the one who committed them.
We aren’t talking about their current conditions, which everyone agrees is acceptable.
Christ on a crutch.
Cat Lady
Inb4 El Tiburon.
Anne Laurie
@NobodySpecial: Bearing witness is also a righteous act.
Bravo, Cole, for this post.
existential fish
That’s not what Manning did Cole. Manning decided the US had no right to keep anything secret. Some of those secrets may have been horrible, but not all of them.
I have no interest in defending Manning’s incarceration, but to defend what Manning did based on what some of what he leaked without any regard to correct protocol or the laws of this country is simply unserious in terms of any way that will affect policy.
Even if you want to argue that those laws are unjust, you have to do so – you can’t just pretend they don’t exist.
Moreover, if Manning had came forward with targeted leaks of atrocities covered up, he’d get far more support in my corner at least (and I hope in the corners of others)
But that’s not what he did. He copied a bunch of shit and gave it all away without regard to what was on it. That’s a serious crime.
David Koch
@Klaus:
How does Obama have anything to do with this? No President gets involved in the daily functions of the federal and military penal system. Let alone, for any one person. I mean, no one thinks a president gets involved in the daily functions of embassies located around the world.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
Jeebus, “immunized”? They just charged Bales with 17 counts of capital murder.
WeeBey
@John Cole:
Which is a central point of what, exactly?
Who is “they” for fuck’s sake?
When people are incarcerated, strange things happen to them. They get put in a a holding tank and observed for anywhere from a couple days to a couple months. If the warden decides to psych them, they go to the psych ward.
Perhaps this guy was a model prisoner and went straight through the pipeline. Perhaps Manning rolled his own shit into balls and ate it, and got himself psyched. Perhaps a bed just happened to be free.
For fuck’s sake, man.
dollared
And another way to say it is, that it is exceptionally stupid to put this guy in the same prison with Manning, and to give this guy better treatment.
Perhaps the right treatment was a PTSD diagnosis and an honorable discharge, six months ago?
Greenwald is right to flag it. Maybe some of you people will stop apologizing for these awful goddamn wars and for the cowardly politicians who allowed them to go forward, and to last longer than any wars in our history.
eemom
There ya go Cole — blessed by the Parrot-in-Chief.
David Koch
@John Cole:
Completely untrue. Manning’s own attorney, on his very own blog, said guards treated Manning professionally.
The Tragically Flip
@David Koch:
Oh enough of this. He was kept on various forms of unofficial suicide watch despite actual experts in psychiatry rating him a low risk of suicide. They made him sleep naked when he, after several months, complained about it. It’s something out of Catch-22 in its vindictive bureaucratic illogic.
He was deliberately mistreated, with “prevention of injury” measures. Have you ever thought about how annoying it would be to be asked, and compelled to respond affirmatively to “are you ok?” every 5 minutes for every waking hour of the day for months on end?
RD
Bradley Manning was a douche.
Why are we still talking about him in relation to anything else?
Joseph Nobles
Difference: The exposure of “widespread wanton killing of civilians” by Manning does not seem to have been Manning’s main point in the egregious document dump he did. If the only thing he’d released had been such evidence, Glenzilla might have a point.
Yevgraf
Fuck Bradley Manning. Cap his ass as a lesson to others.
I’m the same about Pollard as well.
andrewsomething
@WeeBey:
I seriously doubt that any tax cheats have been held in the supermax in Florence.
The Tragically Flip
Oh, and it was solitary:
People you’re not allowed to talk to are not company.
WeeBey
@The Tragically Flip:
Happens to people in every county jail in the country, every day.
Every fucking day.
Danny
Newsflash: “War weary ragtag union deserter hung, while Jefferson Davis lived a plush post civil war life and had the biggest funeral evar!”
Newsflash #2: “Taking 250k diplomatic cables which you have not read and making them available to Al Qaeda, Mossad and GRU is serious bizniz and a serious crime, even”
cathyx
@WeeBey: Oh, I see, because it happens every day then it’s ok.
MoeLarryAndJesus
@David Koch:
This is simply untrue. Nixon got directly involved with the William Calley case.
The Tragically Flip
@RD:
He’s still alive, still in prison, and he has not been convicted of a crime.
Because he is literally in the same fucking prison they are holding the guy accused of perpetrating a civilian massacre. Yes, what a stretch that anyone would compare that guy’s treatement to Manning’s. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Cat Lady
@WeeBey:
DWI suspect forgotten in jail for 2 years.
dollared
@eemom: Wow, eemom, your hostility is breathtaking to behold. Who the fuck needs you?
Yevgraf
PS – still waiting for anybody, anywhere to tell me a signature achievement or skill that Glenn Greenwald can actually claim.
By my count, about all he’s done has been to mount a loser fucking defense for a racist that deserves to be dead, after which he managed to score a Brazilian sugar daddy and a sweet writing gig capitalizing on simpering criticism based on the political economy of unicorns running the People’s Republic of the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
He’s beyond parody.
Klaus
@David Koch: Yes, I’m sure the president is powerless to influence general detention policy or intervene in highly prolific cases. Why do you bring up Obama anyway?
The general picture is that the political system is making people choose sides between a general critical stance to the political system and partisan involvement inside the system. What I’m saying is, in other political systems one does not necessarily have to choose between civil liberties and economic justice.
cathyx
@Yevgraf: Let me guess, you liked Greenwald when Bush was president.
WeeBey
@cathyx:
It calls into question people’s stridency in this particular case, it sure as shit does.
If you look like a psych threat, jail is gonna suck for you, I grant.
Manning sure seems like a psych risk from where I sit.
I sympathize, actually. But I am pretty fucking tired of the way his tale gets bent by people with a pretty see-through agenda.
Here’s a thought for you, though. If you’re truly concerned?
Bring some books and magazines to your county jail.
WeeBey
@Cat Lady:
Yup. Shit happens all the time. All the time.
Litlebritdifrnt
@WeeBey: @WeeBey:
Amen, and there is not a fucking thing said about it. We have people in our jail here who have been incarcerated since 2008, with no trial forthcoming, they have been in jail for four years with no trial even in the near future.
The Tragically Flip
@WeeBey:
Yes, and paying attention to one case of it, saying “that’s fucking wrong, and it shouldn’t happen to anyone” is how positive systemic change happens. Or did you imagine Rosa Parks was the first black person arrested for not sitting in the back of a bus, or Trayvon Martin the first black murder victim that white police ignored?
People need faces to injustice to actualize the inhumanity of it.
dollared
@Yevgraf: Yup. And he’s usually right about the murderous corruption and hypocrisy here in The Land of Stout Patriots Who Swill Gasoline and Bomb Brown People. So he pisses you off.
Sorry. Maybe you can learn something in the process.
Yevgraf
@cathyx:
Actually, I thought he was a whining legend in his own mind then, too.
The Tragically Flip
@Yevgraf:
Well there was this Bradley Manning fellow who was being mistreated by the military for political reasons. Apparently Greenwald’s attention to the matter helped improve Manning’s detention conditions…
Frankensteinbeck
Among other things, he’s wrong because he’s continuing to talk as if Manning’s claims of how he was treated were true, when they were never verified by anyone. Like the ‘sleeping naked’ bit, which turned out to mean no underwear under whatever he chose to wear, or ‘no sheets or a pillow’, which turned out to mean he had blankets and the pillow was an integrated part of the mattress. And he wasn’t allowed out for months to exercise, except that some of his visitors saw him out exercising.
Glenn has misrepresented every aspect of this case to make a mountain out of a molehill. A man who committed a crime, while awaiting trial that was only slow because of the conditions his defense requested, was held at a higher level of security than was warranted. No, not a good thing. Also not within light years of anything Greenwald has implied.
David Koch
@Klaus:
um, because the person I was replying to, which is linked to in my post, had brought Obama.
eemom
@dollared:
Nobody, I guess. We can’t all be as indispensable as you, fuckwit.
vernon
SHUT UP, THAT’S HOW!
Litlebritdifrnt
@WeeBey:
Here in my County jail the only book that is allowed to be brought into the jail is the bible. The ACLU sued to make other books available and won, now the Sheriff insists that the “books” brought into the jail must come directly from the publisher, the ACLU now has to go back to court to get books from family members that are not the bible acceptable.
Danny
@The Tragically Flip:
This is incorrect, and has been pointed out many times. He was asked if he was ok if his head was hidden from view, not every five minutes. ETA: also, he was on suicide watch for three days afaik.
WeeBey
@Frankensteinbeck:
Thank you. You’re calmer than I am.
This shit drives me crazy.
The Tragically Flip
@Frankensteinbeck:
They were verified by Quantico staff:
Yes, he was required to sleep naked. Eventually I understand they gave him one of these. Comfy and not at all demeaning!
Klaus
@David Koch: Yeah, I was being ironic. Never mind.
Frankensteinbeck
@WeeBey:
It’s very hard to stay calm. It really bothers me watching lies become a narrative that remains ‘true’ even when the lies are disproved.
eemom
@Yevgraf:
You may wish to have a seat, because it will be a long wait.
Greenwald is, in reality, an obscure little insect who barely ever even practiced law apart from that Hale case.
ETA: And that, I don’t fault him for — because it is absolutely a fundamental tenet of our justice system that even the lowliest scumbag is entitled to a defense.
Svensker
I’m with you, Cole. Which I guess makes me objectively pro-terrorist or something.
amused
@The Tragically Flip: Sure, people need a face to identify with. I, however, don’t believe a guy who passed military documents to an unknown entity to be posted around the internet is the person I’d use to get the message across about how inhumane the prison system is in the US. To be fair, I wouldn’t use Gates, either. Hard to drum up sympathy, don’t you think? An innocent guy on death row, maybe…
That’s not to say that any war crimes that were inadvertently exposed after the data dump should be ignored. Anyone know how the investigations, if any, of those incidents turned out?
WeeBey
@Litlebritdifrnt:
Jesus.
My best friend is in jail, and I can send to him through Amazon OR I can send to his parents and they can give them to him at in person visits.
As an aside, if you have a friend locked up, Amazon Prime is your best friend.
WeeBey
@Frankensteinbeck:
Yes.
@eemom:
Yes.
Egg Berry
I haven’t read all the comments, but I could hazard the guess that maybe they learned something?
ChrisNYC
Greenwald’s hook is wrong. Good faith mistake on his part, NO DOUBT.
The UN report made the finding of “cruel and inhuman” on the basis of pretrial solitary confinement.
Bales is also being held in pretrial solitary confinement.
usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/story/2012-03-16/afghanistan-shooting-suspect/53561546/1
So you know the whole compare and contrast bit falls flat.
Kids in Texas get pretrial solitary confinement on occasion. Those Rangers MUST be trying to roll them to give up Julian Assange. Bastards.
The Tragically Flip
@Danny:
That’s not what his lawyer alleges:
This, was part of “prevention of injury” watch, which is different from suicide watch. He was on POI watch for months.
David Koch
Why the interest in Manning and not for the thousands doing hard time in actual solitary holes like Pelican Bay?
Dontcha care about your fellow men being mistreated in actual solitary confinement?
Ben Franklin
@David Koch:
Hey asshole. He’s in solitary.
ruemara
Dude, I hate to bust that greenwaldian bubble, but Manning has never said he released the documents to protest serious violations of civil rights. It was, according to him, anger of failure to repeal DADT. I have no problem with saying that I think he’s been treated poorly because, frankly, people don’t like betrayers and his fellow military felt betrayed. Should he be protected? Yes. Should we feel anger at the issues his treatment shed light on? Yes. Is this Obama’s fault, as people love to allege? Probably not. Is Bradley Manning a prisoner of conscience? Also, not. He’s a very unwell young man who needed help and not a security clearance. A file dump is not whistle blowing, it’s the techno equivalent of kicking the trash can because you’re angry.
MoZeu
@WeeBey: That left a mark.
MoZeu
@WeeBey: That left a mark.
Ben Franklin
@ruemara:
He asked for nothing. Got nothing. It is a question for history.
Corner Stone
So refreshing to see the Parsing Patriots(tm) come out in full throated dudgeon.
David Koch
@The Tragically Flip:
Oh, so it was greenwald and not his attorney? I see. This is all about glenn. That’s why.
I get it now.
Svensker
@David Koch:
Why are you interested in women’s rights in the States when there are honor killings of women in Pakistan?
The jackalope argument.
The Dangerman
Manning is a turd; flush him and clean the toilet bowl.
Ben Franklin
@Yevgraf:
And fuck you, asshole.
Yevgraf
@David Koch:
Greenwald has a crush. It’s the only explanation.
Cacti
Greenwald turns his organ grinder and Cole dances like a good little monkey…
Clinking his little cymbals together and shouting Free Mumia!
David Koch
@Svensker: Huh? Where have I said I’m not interested in one issue to the exclusion of the other?
Ben Franklin
@The Dangerman:
Eat the corn in my crap.
The Tragically Flip
@amused:
See, and I say a conscientious whistle blower is precisely the kind of poster child needed for evoking sympathy at common prison mistreatment tactics.
Aside from the actual war crimes disclosed (which wasn’t “incidental”, it was reputedly Manning’s prime motivation), the banality of most of what Manning leaked only serves to prove how rampant classification abuse is within the US Government.
5 minutes of browsing finds me a suitable example. That cable is officially “SECRET” (the highest level Manning is accused of leaking) – what in there could damage US national security? Oil figures from a foreign country? Questions about their domestic politics?
The whole idea of democratic governments keeping secrets from their citizens used to be controversial, and these classifications were supposed to be used sparingly only for actual, you know, secrets like missile codes and names of spies. Now a foreign country’s oil projections are a US state secret.
David Koch
@Ben Franklin: His very own attorney, David Coombs, said he wasn’t in solitary.
Loneoak
Has anyone considered the possibility that Greenwald is actually Tunch? And fealty that Cole shows Greenwald is actually just an act to keep from getting shanked in his sleep? PROVE ME WRONG.
The Dangerman
@Ben Franklin:
Blow me.
Manning’s no hero; he’s a crook that will probably never be a free man again. Good riddance.
salacious crumb
@Svensker: No it makes you a racist. For ABL, eemom and the likes, criticizing a black man makes you a racist or an Uncle Tom. All hail Dear Leader Obama, He Whose Policies Shall Not Be Questioned!
WeeBey
@Loneoak:
Makes as much sense as anything else.
Ben Franklin
@David Koch:
No link?
democracynow.org/2011/3/18/daniel_ellsberg_on_bradley_mannings_solitary
Yevgraf
@Ben Franklin:
Poor widdle Bradley the shitweasel – when given a position of responsibility, he does a document dump in order to make some guy on the Internet say nice things about him.
It’s almost as cool as doing something amazing to get Jodie Foster to notice him….
David Koch
@salacious crumb: bagnewsnotes.com/files/bagnews/images/joe-hamsher-black-face.jpg
Ben Franklin
@The Dangerman:
I didn’t say anything about ‘hero’, asswipe. He is a victim of circumstance. If you can’t conjure up some compassion, you might as well register as a Republican.
I don’t see much difference between your comments and those at Weasel Zippers.
mk3872
It’s only a “fair analysis” if you completely disregard what Mr. Manning did and consider him a hero instead of someone who put the country’s top secrets and other people in danger with his actions.
David Koch
@Ben Franklin: If you can’t find, much less read, David Coombs online blog, then that shows your own ignorance.
The Tragically Flip
@ruemara:
What is your source on that claim? If the chatlogs are real, he seems plenty concerned with war crimes in their own right:
The Dangerman
@Ben Franklin:
By that reasoning, so is George Zimmerman. Oh, if only that kid hadn’t been wearing a hoodie.
Victim of circumstance my left nut. Bullshit.
Cacti
@Ben Franklin:
Just like Mumia.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@The Tragically Flip:
What Manning did was dump a huge amount of info into the public domain, including detailed after action reports of how his fellow soldiers operated in harms way. With many of them outside the wire getting shot at, while Manning was inside the wire and not getting shot at. There are other ways to protest a war or DADT, , rather than doing what he did, allegedly. It is called lending aid and comfort to the enemy, and a selling out of his comrades in arms, if found guilty.
David Koch
@salacious crumb: also too, supporting a racist like Ron Paul, makes glenn a racist as well.
Clime Acts
@eemom:
Oh my. That was down right, dare I say?, bitchy.
I liked it!
Even though AL is one of the only two semi sane FP’ers at BJ.
Ben Franklin
@David Koch:
If you can’t provide a link; and instead, require me to verify your ‘facts’, then toss my salad, jerkweed.
Billy Rae Valentine
i don’t know what other commenters said, so i apologize if this is redundant.
i don’t believe Manning let those secrets out because he “could no longer abide” the slaughter or whatever the poster wrote. i don’t believe it was a matter of conscience in any way. i think it was that it was a path to notoriety for him in the online circles he traveled. he was befriended by various male personalities online who benefited from his leaks like assange. this is detailed in many articles. they used him for the info and he sought their attention. he broke the law and i think is a traitor, technically.
that said, i think some of his treatment is a travesty and i condemn it. i think some of it is illegal. i understand the poster’s point about what this suggests about our values that the murderer gets better treatment than the whistle-blower. it is odd/disturbing.
Anya
I don’t know why but this thread gives me the strangest feeling of deja vu.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Anya:
soap opera, As the Bullshit Turns
Corner Stone
Not much of a compare and contrast, actually. When Bales notches as many kills as Manning somebody please let us know.
Til then..yawn.
Baud
@Anya: Ha!
Ben Franklin
@The Dangerman:
Your right nut would be the victim, in that scenario. Fuck the Hell off.
Yevgraf
@Cacti:
You win the internet today…
Chyron HR
@salacious crumb:
If only you True Progressives could stop calling the President things like, quote, “House Nigger”, unquote. Then that would really show those Obotomized Obots how crazy they look for calling you racist!
If only…
Corner Stone
@Anya: Probably because it’s the same authoritarian assholes struggling to explain away facts they’d prefer to not acknowledge.
Or just don’t give a shit about. Take your pick.
amused
@The Tragically Flip: I agree that a “conscientious whistle blower is precisely the kind of poster child needed for evoking sympathy at common prison mistreatment tactics.” But I don’t agree that Manning is it. And I don’t think what he did can be conflated with what Gates did. Motives aside, Manning passed military documents to an unknown entity who posted them on the internet. Gates went on a bender and killed lots of people. Espionage (technically) vs War Crime (or just plain crime, really). Apples and pizzas.
clayton
There’s some kind that isn’t intense? Or is this just more flowery language to fan the flames?
I don’t remember your writing about some others who did nothing more than be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I’m so sick of Greenwald. He’s just out to make a buck and a name and you just keep giving it oxygen.
Enough already.
David Koch
@Billy Rae Valentine:
plenty of prisoners are mistreated every day. To focus solely on Manning to the exclusion of thousands of other victims is odd/disturbing.
eemom
@Clime Acts:
Sane, she may be. Having any claim to possession or articulation of a single original idea in the entire course of her oevre on this blog — other than “Corner Stone is a great guy” — she is not.
Who is your other “semi sane” FPer, Sir Timothy?
Spectre
The mental illness is high in this thread. I wonder how many dnc partisans will start self mutilating after Glenn’s appeareance on Real Time with Bill Maher tonight.
clayton
@Corner Stone: It’s probably because you are here.
Corner Stone
@amused:
The guy the President had a beer with?
Yevgraf
True Progressives only care about gay marriage and beleaguered young men, while fluffing secret fascist Ron Paul…
You figure out Glenn’s interests.
The Dangerman
@Ben Franklin:
If I recall my history correctly, your namesake liked his women really, REALLY young. Makes your choice of names rather apropos.
Merp
FYI anyone with HBO: Glenn’s on Bill Maher’s show this week, which is starting now
Corner Stone
@Yevgraf: Please tell us more.
You’ve previously enlightened us on your thoughts on execution of your political adversaries, now gay men and their fantasies.
Fascinating stuff.
The Tragically Flip
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
US tactics in combat are not classified. The Taliban can google the manuals like anyone else. Do you also want to prosecute Petraeus for publishing his COIN manual online?
What manning mostly revealed demonstrated that war crimes are common and all manner of merely embarrassing information is illegally classified to conceal it.
What is selling out Manning’s comrades under fire is leaving them in a losing war under failing tactics while top generals and politicians paint a rosy and false picture for the public.
Ben Franklin
@Yevgraf:
True conservatives only care about ‘Lawn-odah’ because that’s the only thing keeping this Country from the evils of anarchy.
Eat the peanuts out of my turd.
Spectre
I hope Greenwald rips out an apologist’s heart and shows it to the cameras tonight.
Danny
@The Tragically Flip:
Ah, sorry you’re right. You said every waking hour – I thought you were talking about night time. My mistake.
ETA: and right on the POI.
ChrisNYC
@Spectre: The paperback of the book he was selling last fall, when he showed up at Occupy Wall Street, is coming out?
Ben Franklin
@The Dangerman:
This proves your idiocy. B Franklin liked older women because they were so gratelful.
Go peddle your conservative trope at RedState..
The Tragically Flip
@Yevgraf:
Hmm:
Yes, tell us more about what true progressives do. A reactionary authoritarian psycho like yourself surely has some deep thoughts on the subject.
Ben Franklin
I’m starting to get a handle on the conservative termites infesting this blog.
Corner Stone
@The Tragically Flip:
Shit. They have every village kid in -three- four countries reporting back on what tactics are.
amused
@Corner Stone: Speaking of conflation!
Corner Stone
@amused: Or it could have been former SecDef Bobby Gates.
With either I have a clear strike to blame that damned Obama!
El Cid
It was certainly risky, but as it happens, the information released by Manning happens to have improved the world greatly, and when I was in the military I would have gladly accepted the increased risk to my life for the chance that a few million around the world be liberated from tyranny — which, thankfully, though not necessarily, is what happened.
Spectre
@The Tragically Flip:
I think there’s a strong case to be made at this point that the anti-greenwald Obama partisans are actually mentally ill.
ChrisNYC
@Ben Franklin: This from the guy who writes that older women are “grateful.” Hahahahaha. Good one!
Ben Franklin
@ChrisNYC:
teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=468
But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:
1. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor’d with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.
2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.
3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc’d may be attended with much Inconvenience.
4. Because thro’ more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin’d to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.
5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.
6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.
7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.
8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@The Tragically Flip:
Bullshit. Equating a manual with actual on going operations in a specific war zone, is simply bullshit. Just like Greenwald’s bullshit that Bales is being “immunized”. That info was classified “secret”, military manuals are not.
More bullshit, Manning didn’t even read what he copied, and the US military in Afghanistan has been upfront about too much killing, especially at checkpoints. And who made you the arbiter of what classified info is “illegal”.
This is so arrogant it takes the breath away. And as I said, there are other ways, legal ways, to protest a war, other than someone in uniform giving away classified info as a pogue (in the rear), while others in uniform are out fighting and dieing.
Bradley Manning volunteered for the military, and every soldier is warned about doing what he allegedly did, especially in a war zone. And how very serious a criminal act it would be.
Danny
@El Cid:
So if I had killed Bush in February 2003 then many people might say I did “improve” the world, right? But that would still have been a crime.
amused
@Corner Stone: Gates was in there, with a bit of Norman Bates, Christian Bale and Robert Bales. It’s Friday; I’m drunk, whaddaya want from me?
amused
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero): Nicely done.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
Bradley Manning apologists are thick on this thread, and may be mentally ill.
ChrisNYC
@Ben Franklin: Yeah, I’m gonna stick with retrograde.
Spectre
Yes!!! Greenwald is firebombing on deez fools!!
Ben Franklin
This is what separates the liberals from the conservatives; compassion.
Here was a private in a world of commissioned officers, trying to equate his duty with his conscience. He has seen, first hand how it works to whistleblow. There is no safe house. What doe he do? Put yourself in his postion as a person of conscience, if you can. He made a mistake. Can you understand? Or will you persist in your super righteous fulminations?
Gawd, I hate conservatives.
Ben Franklin
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
Fuck you in your conservative asshole, asswipe,
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Ben Franklin:
You sound drunk, bumpkin. Drunk and stupid.
Ben Franklin
@ChrisNYC:
It’s a burden, not being able to admit you’re an asshole, isn;t it?
Tight white Pussycat
You Greenwald haters are obviously all homophobes. It’s truly disgusting. Don’t even bother trying to deny it. Your comments speak for themselves.
clayton
@Corner Stone:
Aren’t you clever. Here’s a cookie.
eemom
@Ben Franklin:
You keep using that word, “conservative.” I do not think it means what you think it means.
(dayum, I’ve been waiting YEARS for a chance to do that.)
Ben Franklin
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
See how your pov reaches the morons at RedState. Then get back to me.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@eemom:
Yelling ‘conservative’ is their way of telling us they are idiots.
Ben Franklin
@eemom:
I know what ‘covert’ means. I also know what ‘stealth’ means. You?
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Ben Franklin:
GFY with corner stone’s dick, and put that bottle down.
ChrisNYC
@Ben Franklin: Cranky cranky. Maybe rewatch that adorable Foster Friess where he talks about the aspirin and the knees? Should give you a chuckle.
clayton
@Ben Franklin: He broke the law. He made quite a number of people’s jobs more difficult and risky. Do you seriously think that diplomacy in any age needs this sort of shit?
Why not focus on something more relevant, like the countries that have nukes but deny it, like Israel.
Save your venom for a worthy target.
The Tragically Flip
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
Name some “ongoing operations” that were compromised by the Iraq or Afghanistan document dumps. The Afghan diaries cover material ending Dec 2009 and were published July 2010.
Iraq’s docs also end in 2009 and weren’t published until October 2010.
You’re implying the Taliban got live, useful intelligence on troop locations and intentions and there’s zero evidence for that.
In exchange we learned about tens of thousands of civilian deaths caused by the US military that had been concealed from the public for no justifiable reason. The people in Iraq and Afghanistan know damn well about this, so it isn’t “helping the enemy” to publish it. It only helps us stop the atrocity and if that doesn’t help the troops in harms way, then maybe the US should still be in Vietnam too and Ellsberg should be in prison.
Ben Franklin
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
*grin*
What stage are we at, asswipe?
clayton
@The Tragically Flip: Yes, I remember way back in 2004 how worried Greenwald was about civilian deaths.
I almost lost my goddamn job over my problems with the start of that goddamn war.
Grennwald and you fuckwits have only cared since 2005 at best.
Show me where Greenwald cared about the run up to the Iraq war in 2003.
You can’t because he didn’t care enough before 2005.
ChrisNYC
@clayton: He was in favor of the war. So, yeah, not much of a critic of the run up.
brantl
@eemom: And that it happens to be exactly true, that wouldn’t have anything to do with it, would it, EEMOM?
burnspbesq
@John Cole:
Christ on a crutch, yourself. No one is arguing that the circumstances of Manning’s confinement were appropriate. But that is utterly irrelevant to whether Manning is guilty of the offenses with which he has been charged.
Has it not occurred to you that the Army has learned from the Marines’ mistake?
Danny
@The Tragically Flip:
Isn’t it a bit absurd that you pretent to know what was in all those 250 000 documents, and who and what their release might have hurt? Manning didnt know either. Those kids who pushed that shopping cart – maybe there wasn’t someone down there and maybe there was. It was a crime either way.
Spectre
Wtf? He spends most of the time on bullshit pop culture topics, and takes forever with the SNL dude interview, then goes to new rules like 12 minutes early?
With this panel? Maher fail.
clayton
@Ben Franklin: asswipe? Late to the whole fucking entire game and you call names?
Here’s a name for you: LATE
This is nothing new. Yes, Americans have killed innocent people. So have lots of other countries. Why is your first response to name call and condemn.
Please tell me about how you rallied against Israel supporting apartheid and South Africa having the bomb.
MosesZD
@David Koch:
He was in solitary. Get your facts straight.
burnspbesq
@clayton:
Logic fail.
Greenwald wasn’t blogging in 2003. You don’t know, and can’t know, what he might have written if he had been writing at that time.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
MosesZD
@burnspbesq:
Why was he being held by the Marines? That’s highly abnormal. He should have been held by the Army.
The Tragically Flip
@clayton:
The cables more or less led directly to the downfall of 3 Arab dictators and gave tens of millions of people some kind of chance at actual democracy. Yes, I’d say that’s worth embarassing a bunch of Ambassadors whose real opinions of various world leaders were exposed. For that matter, the impact on Iceland 250,000 or so people probably makes the discomfort of every US diplomat in service worth it.
But as I peruse the list it really is a rogue’s gallery of fuckery that we are all better off knowing than not knowing about. Cynics long said that much if not all of US foreign policy was about helping corporations, and they’re not far wrong.
Oh, and let’s not forget Hillary ordering spying of the UN Secretary General.
clayton
@John Cole: Oh God you are an idiot.
But that’s why we love you.
You don’t really get how many point and laugh, do you?
brantl
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
Do you have a reading comprehension problem, Stuck? “that high government officials who commit egregious crimes are immunized“, not the walkaround killer.
Ben Franklin
Do you even fucking hear yourself?
clayton
Cole: Greenwald doesn’t really care about Manning. You get that don’t you?
The Tragically Flip
@clayton:
First, we’re talking about Manning, not Greenwald, but I fail to see anything but a full ad hominem argument in this. Is Greenwald wrong today because he wasn’t right in 2003? Lots of people came around to view the war as wrong, it would be better if we all knew immediately, but I really fail to see the point of hating on people who have come around.
clayton
@Ben Franklin: Yeah, I do.
It’s like this “Ben”, Greenwald has no skin in this at all.
I do. Manning did something that made many people’s job more difficult and dangerous.
There are other ways to do what he did. There is a history in our country of that very thing.
He didn’t have to sell everyone out.
Greenwald didn’t care about politics until December of 2005. Check it out. It’s true. So for him now to get a platform like BJ is ridiculous. That you sign on is worse.
eemom
@brantl:
Bless your heart, you are just a clown in search of a consonant. Carry on.
Bruce S
I think Manning should be prosecuted. I also think his treatment was disgraceful.
I’d like to hear a full-on defense of the treatment of Manning from Stuck-in-Stupid. ‘Cuz he’s got those large balls…
That’s the crux.
Lame assholes like Stuck and eemom are too fucked up to hold two ideas that rub against each other a bit in their head at the same time. It’s enough to hate Glenn Greenwald. Explains the fucking world… If Cole is “Broder”, Stuck is “Brietbart.” A hysterical partisan screaming at anyone who doesn’t conform to his single-minded agenda.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@The Tragically Flip:
I’d like to see some evidence of that. Or are you just talking out of your ass.
Now this is epically stupid. Like I would have direct knowledge of something like that. And the good news is, I don’t have to. Creating the potential for compromising operations is the question of relevance. Even the military likely won’t know if the information has helped the Taliban, unless maybe if CNN interviews some Taliban leaders.
Ellsberg actually read the Pentagon Papers, and edited out names and any sources and methods, before giving them to the NYT;s. Neither Manning nor Assange made that effort. And Ellsberg was whistleblowing on a narrative of action reports from the field.
What the world got, was in toto after action reports, that can be mined for any sort of patterns of ops. And I haven’t mentioned Iraq, as I am talking about Afghanistan.
And the military has formally charged Manning with “lending aid and comfort to the enemy” and I doubt they would do that, unless they have some material evidence of what they allege, and have to prove in court.
Sorry, but the evidence is not that Manning released these documents as solely an act “of conscience” but more like in part, a poorly thought out hissy fit for other reasons.
I think this entire hero worship of Bradley Manning is just creepy.
clayton
@The Tragically Flip:
He didn’t even care then.
What’s your point?
Do you want me to pull out Mona?
Newbees are new.
ChrisNYC
@The Tragically Flip: The idea that the release of the cables caused the Arab Spring is such nonsense. The Egyptian movement was started in March 2008, well before the Wikileaks release. When the Tunisian fruit vendor set himself on fire in December 2009 (sorry 2010), the Egyptian movement already had an entire network of activists ready and organized and hooked up with the Muslim Brotherhood (for logistics) that they activated when that death provoked such a huge amount of attention. Also too, millions of Arabs out in squares and (ahem!) NATO in Libya had a bit to do with it. Geez. Americans take all the credit!
Soonergrunt
Auto-trolling. Masterfully done. I hope one day to be as good as you, John.
@MosesZD: No, it isn’t abnormal at all. Since the consolidation of Pretrial Confinement and short term nonviolent incarceration facilities in the military, It wasn’t remotely unusual for PFC Manning to be assigned to the Quantico Brig since that is the consolidated east coast PTC facility, and his convening authority is Commanding General, Military District of Washington. In fact, there are convicted personnel from MDW serving their sentences at Quantico right now. What’s abnormal is assigning Manning to the Midwest Joint Regional Confinement facility when his Convening Authority is in Washington, DC.
What was highly unusual was the fact that the MCB Quantico commander overrode his own staff and Naval/USMC regulations, ostensibly to prevent Manning from committing or attempting to commit suicide. Repeatedly.
The only thing more amusing than Cole’s self trolling is the way that so many of you jump to conclusions and make connections that have no grounding in empirical fact and could easily be refuted with this tool called Google. Perhaps you’ve heard of it.
Ben Franklin
@clayton:
huh? I don’t give a flying fuck for Greenwald. He’s a narcissist, but he
does provide antithetical rationale for thinking purposes. You do understand that it’s important to question teh authority, right?
Get your head on straight or someone is going to shit down your neck.
eemom
@Spectre:
hmm…..not sure, but I THINK this might mean (1) Maher dissed Greenwald, and (2) Greenwald dick sucker haz a sad.
clayton
@Bruce S: Bruce, I guess you have never lived abroad or held any post that was risky :)
It’s always easy to judge from here.
Look, have you ever been an asshole who blew the shit off of your whole country’s intel like that? Do you think that is okay? Do you think there are levels of solitary?
Or are you just outraged?
I for one can’t believe that JOHN FUCKING COLE juxtaposed this to what happened in FLA.
YOU ARE AN ASS JOHN.
clayton
Manning is alive. no?
I black teenager is dead.
What is wrong with you Greenwald people?
Ben Franklin
I’ve also heard that simpletons make simple, the complex.
Try pulling your head out your military ass.
Spectre
@eemom:
Nah. Greenwald got in a decent amount of time, and destroyed Sullivan and Maher each time the topic was interesting. Mostly though Maher just choose to talk about things like Tim Tebow, whether “one man shows” are good, whether celebrity is good, and whether Sullivan is a “true christian”.
It’s nice to see you result to homophobic abuse though. Quite revealing about you actually.
Bruce S
clayton – you’ve pretty much ceded that you’re an asshole not to be taken seriously. Manning should be prosecuted. But you’re justifying any kind of treatment. You’ve served up the same psycho rationalizations I heard for Abu Ghraib. It’s not even a slippery slope when you’re that comfortable with totally glib shit. The comment re: “Cole juxtaposed this to Florida” and raising the death of Trayvon as some sort of rationalization is beyond stupid.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Bruce S:
Why don’t you to hell, and there has not been a Stuck full on defense of Manning’s treatment in jail. Just the opposite, when we learned from the investigation that the suicide watch was not called for.
Bruce, you really are a pitiful sumbitch, with nothing to offer but lame pile ons for people you don’t like. It is pathetic, and seems headed for a case of blog stalking. Now go fuck yourself with soul mate corner stone’s dick, when Franklin is done with it.
And it is always comical, the way you’ve worked out as the Balloon Juice blog snob.
I didn’t write this post citing GG, and do. not . care about the lying weasel.
Corner Stone
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
Is this your “wooden nickles” moment of this thread?
“Relatively I ask seashells to determine their position in things. Plus, peanut butter. And maybe silk.”
clayton
@Ben Franklin:
Seriously you think that?
I remember posting as a female on his old blog and it drew out people like jwest, but I don’t remember you. I think you might have missed Greenwald saying no to a chance to test his “theories”.
YMMV
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
And the only thing creepier than worship for Bradley Manning, is the truly creepy worship of Glenn Greenwald.
clayton
@Spectre: Fanboi
@Bruce S: Another fanboi
This is fun.
Look you two, Greenwald didn’t care about shit until December 2005.
Look it up.
Kids these days
Bruce S
Stuck – your entire effort here is a fucking rationalization of Manning’s treatment.
But you’re too fucking chickenshit to acknowledge it. The post is about Manning’s treatment. You are outraged that this is noted with concern.
So go fuck yourself, you little weasel.
And for something you “don’t care about” you seem to have worked yourself into Brietbart levels of apoplexy.
Clime Acts
@eemom:
You’ll laugh, of course: COLE!
Here me out, hear me out…I propose that Cole is sane but volatile, emo, and easily swayed. After each display of one of those three qualities, he generally swings back to equilibrium fairly quickly.
So what’s YOUR “real” name, Ms. eemom?
clayton
@Bruce S:
That doesn’t work here.
“Bruce” your guy didn’t care when George W. Bush was killing Brown people.
No really, he didn’t.
Your best bud didn’t care at all.
I’m sorry you have to find out about it here. Really I am.
But Greenwald didn’t care. Until December of 2005.
Until he needed income.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble.
I am.
The Tragically Flip
@Danny:
That’s a fair question, and suggests negligence on Manning’s part. I don’t know what was in his head, possibly he thought the greater good of what he believed he was doing made that risk worth it, possibly Assange persuaded him that Wikileaks would do that filtering (which he did attempt to do in partnering with the newspapers). His defence may speak to this at trial.
I don’t actually object to prosecuting Manning, but in no way does he deserve a harsh sentence for this. Organizations like the Military have a legitimate interest in ensuring people entrusted secrets don’t leak them, but it doesn’t make him history’s greatest monster, or deserving of summary execution the way some people here have called for. He’s not a “traitor” nor was he giving aid and comfort to the enemy. He (allegedly) broke laws, but evidently did so out of conscience and benign motives. That’s something that should be taken seriously at sentencing if he’s convicted.
I also think that the consequences of what he did aren’t abstract or theoretical exercises anymore, this stuff has been out there for over a year, and almost all the impacts we know about have been positive. That could be just luck, or it could be that in reviewing a lot of the material before deciding to leak it, Manning correctly surmised the general nature of what was in there, and that harm would rarely come from its disclosure. The chat logs have him saying he’s been reading a lot of it, and it could just be he got the gist of what was in most of it.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Bruce S:
whether or not Manning is guilty of the crimes he is alleged to have committed, has nothing to do with his treatment in jail, you fulminating, lying POS. And noting that Greenwald is once again lying out his ass, with claims that Bales is getting “immunized”, is not “Breitbart levels of apoplexy.
Now tell us all again of your superior self running thread to thread stamping your precious feet, declaring BJ is beneath you. And Stuck and eemom are stupid stupid stupid, like some kind of demented broken record. Now stamp yer some more clown.
Bruce S
clayton – I hate to break the news to you but I don’t give a shit about Glenn Greenwald.
Meanwhile, you’ve bared your sorry soul with your comments that, in effect, Manning deserves whatever he gets. Deal with that. It’s 2012 and you’re still engaged in pathological thinking.
But go do this soul-searching in a quiet place, because your responses to me are beyond irrelevant and just prove my point about you’re being a dickwad.
Bruce S
Stuck – you’re a worthless ass, but I will do you the favor of pointing out that Greenwald doesn’t claim that Bales has been immunized. Up your reading skills. And take a fucking tranquilizer.
As for “broken records”, you break that record every time anyone crosses your fine little line.
clayton
@The Tragically Flip:
You know nothing of diplomacy.
I know you think that John Cole agrees with you and all that, but, your and John Cole’s attitude have made diplomacy more difficult.
Why can’t you Greenwald people understand that it is a big world with lots of problems and that Obama and Hillary are working double time to make things better?
Why can’t you understand how to deal with other parts of the world without inflaming things?
Why does John Cole and Glenn Greenwald get more worked up about people killed on the other side of the planet and less so about one of our own?
Bruce S
“Why does John Cole and Glenn Greenwald get more worked up about people killed on the other side of the planet and less so about one of our own?”
When did Pat Buchanan start posting here under “clayton”?
clayton
@Bruce S: I wonder . . . were you one of the commenters on UT?
Spectre
@Bruce S:
Remember, these are the same posters that, along with ABL, accused Cole of laughing at rape victims, and running a racist blog.
clayton
@Bruce S: I’ll answer your question if you answer mine.
Bruce S
clayton – I have no fucking idea what “UT” is, but I do recognize that you’re a fucking psycho.
eemom
@Clime Acts:
My real name is Elaine.
And actually, I guessed after I asked the question that you probably meant Cole.
And so, Timmy, you and I take our place in the annals of history’s Strangest [Virtual] Bedfellows, BJ Edition….
clayton
@Spectre:
So you know the answer that Bruce is clueless to?
You are clever.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Bruce S:
Your the one blustering into this thread spouting bullshit and mouth breathing spittle. Do you have even an ounce of self awareness of your behavior on this blog, or any idea of the mountain size projection you exhibit. Therapy can help that.
Bruce S
Stuck – go have a drink with your buddy “clayton.” You’re in great company.
Okay, now I’m totally bored with this inane crap. You’ll have to jerk yourself off for excitement.
clayton
@Bruce S: Unclaimed Territory. Google it.
Corner Stone
@Spectre:
And wondering aloud why they “stayed for so long”.
Well, I think that’s an easy answer at this point.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Bruce S:
Ha ha ha. so original. That’s our Bruce. Wanting so bad to be bossy relevant on a popular blog, is willing to show his ass at the drop of a dime.
Spectre
@Bruce S:
Arguing with the Obama-can-do-no-wrong partisans, is like playing chess with a pigeon.
Even if you destroy them, they’ll simply take a shit on the board, knock the pieces over, and then strut around chirping that they’ve won
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Bruce S:
LOL, right on cue, Mr. Personality turns up his nose at us Obot heathen rabble, and sweeps off stage. I would call you Scarlett, but we already have one of those on this blog.
Ah heck, I’m gonna name you that anyways.
clayton
@Spectre: And who were you circa 2005 on the UT blog, hmmm?
Gleenbots are all the same to me.
Except that none of them helped Mona. Or should I say hypatia? None of these Glenn bots now the background and will cry like little piggies when they get called on it.
Tell me Gleenbots “Dear Glenn Learder” where were you around December 2005?
Not here and not on UT.
But jwest was. I give him that.
Spectre
@clayton:
False.
clayton
Cole, did you help Mona when she needed it?
Did you?
Or did you just let her go out there and beg like Greenwald did?
Just asking.
Spectre
@clayton:
You’ve contradicted yourself. Obamabot selfown!
Brazilian Rascal
Speaking as a foreigner…yeah, it’s quite distressing to see so many ‘liberals’ here gleefully turn into John Yoo the moment the ball is on their court. Jeez. No one is even asking you to do much other than ponder that maybe the president’s words about protecting whistleblowers may have been for show.
But I guess if a few years from now the democrats feel like a punitive bombing run here to keep the war machine lubed or flex some muscle, several of you will be cheering for each bomb as long as it’s not a republican president hanging up the victory banner on the supercarrier.
clayton
@Spectre: Which part? The part about Glenn abandoning Mona or the part about you not knowing anything about Greenwald pre-2009?
Spectre
@Brazilian Rascal:
I’m pretty sure plenty of posters in this thread would approve of Obama drone bombing Rio in hopes of killing Greenwald.
That’s what annoys them most about this writing. That he highlights how the partisans are willing to sell out every principle they’ve ever preached.
His critiques of Obama are all pretty excellent. If anything he holds back way too much.
Spectre
@clayton:
As I’ve shown, you’re wrong on everything. It must sting to have been so brutally outdebated.
clayton
@Brazilian Rascal:
Hi Glenn. Have you actually paid Mona for all for all of the help she gave you on UT?
Omnes Omnibus
This is in the running for worst thread ever. Well done, everyone.
Spectre
@Omnes Omnibus:
Greenwald may have literally driven his haters to insanity.
clayton
@Spectre: Newbee
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: But now with your judicious interjection…Sanity!
clayton
@Spectre:
Spectre
@clayton:
Way to flee the argument! How humiliating for you.
The Tragically Flip
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero):
That you don’t know this tells me how facile your grasp of this topic is. It was a major headline revelation when they were published.
The documents are public. You’re claiming “ongoing” operations were compromised. Yes, you could fucking know that because if they were you could point to a document that actually discussed an “ongoing” opertation and revealed key plans, codes, locations, troop numbers such that the enemy could actually use.
Actually Assange did make an effort. He even partnered with major newspapers in attempting to do so when Wikileaks proved incapable of filtering that volume of info. He wasn’t entirely successful, but a great deal was blacked out post-leak.
Patterns of ops? Like the Taliban can’t track where past operations against them took place and do that pattern analysis anyway. This is really reaching for possible harm. The enemy knows where you’ve hit them.
No, prosecutors never pile on charges that can’t really prove hoping to make something stick, and increase the pressure on the defendant to plea bargain.
Don’t be painfully reductive. People are complex with multiple motives for many things. The chatlogs (which I posted a snippet above) show he was concerned about the crimes he found in there. He was also a gay soldier living under DADT, and facing harassment for his effeminate habits. Making this a “hissy” fit ignores the litany of evidence that Manning was in fact, disturbed by the nature of the information he had access to. He complained about specific incidents to his superiors. He told a counselor it bothered him. The evidence leans far more toward ethically motivated whistle blowing that some kind of “get even” for DADT.
Spectre
@clayton:
No you.
Danny
@The Tragically Flip:
Fair enough, but I’d argue that if you do something that you know full well is illegal and you’re aware that it is also reckless and may cause harm, then you should in fact be prepared to accept whatever appropriate punishment the law prescribes. That’s the choice you make.
Perhaps, but I do believe the responsibility to filter the material lies with Manning here, does it not? I cant just grab a bunch of classified material, go to the WPost and say “Here! You sort it out!” and then claim whistleblower protection.
Shouldn’t the question at this point be: what is he guilty of; what can he be shown guilty of?
Again, I think the issue is what crimes – or offences under the UCMJ, i guess – is he guilty of, can he be shown to be guilty of. Was Mumia “history’s greatest monster” if he did in fact kill a police officer in a shoot-out, after centuries of slavery and Jim Crow? Is that question relevant to whether he’s guilty of murder?
Agreed, I think.
Is he guilty of “aiding the enemy”? You don’t know that; that’s to be decided. If information got published online, where Al Qaeda had access, and that information did in fact aid them in a substantial way then maybe he is…
Ah but people who shoot abortion doctors do so out of ‘benign’ motives. See, they’re preventing murderers from murdering.
I could see that as a fair case for maybe a Presidential pardon or something. But what’s the difference with Pollard then? He was just a guy who loved Israel really, really much and the Israelis think its a TRAVESTY that this friend of Israel has to rot away in jail.
I think that is to be decided in court-martial, right? If it can be shown that he aided the enemy as per the definition in UCMJ then he will be found guilty. I cant argue that all the consequences of me stealing your money that we know of were great – you had to take a second job and you ended up with a new career! – thus I was not guilty of theft.
250 000 documents. Think about it. But either way, that’s to be decided in court. If Manning can show that what he was doing was protected whistle-blowing, then he’ll do fine. But I doubt it, frankly.
I surmise your talking out your behind. Your prejudging the findings of the court martial.
But imho, it would have been wiser if Manning had only released things that a) he had read, b) he could and had judged there was a clear public interest to know, and c) would not harm individuals, operations or strategic interests in a way that outweighed the public interest.
It doesnt look like he did either of those things and therefore my 2 cents say that he will be probably be found guilty of the various offenses he’s accused of in the court martial… But we’ll see.
clayton
@Corner Stone: You probably don’t remember UT or Mona or hypatia either.
Omnes Omnibus
@Spectre: Bullshit, this is truly a both sides do it clusterfuck. Embarrassing to watch, really.
Manning was mistreated. The Navy has admitted it. He has since been transferred and the mistreatment has stopped. Whether he was mistreated or not does not affect his guilt or innocence. his case is proceeding to trial. His counsel appears to be competent and experienced.
Bales has been treated properly, or so it seems. Should he be mistreated to make things even?
Spectre
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s hard to be a both sides deal, when the Anti-Greenwald Jihadis make up 99% of the frequent posters in these threads.
We’ve had people talk about how Bradley Manning should be shot in this thread. I think at that point, one can only mock the partisans.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ok. Full stop here.
All the sloppy authoritarians keep arguing otherwise.
clayton
@Spectre: Glenn you remember UT and hypatia, no?
(You must know that Glenn is infamous for sock-puppets, right?)
It’s like an own goal.
You know what that is, right?
balki
@clayton: What’s with your obsession with Greenwald and 2005? Are you aware that the UT blog wasn’t even launched until October 2005? Are you just mad that he didn’t start blogging about the war until December (2 months later)? He was running a law firm and not blogging prior to that. Are you saying that, because he didn’t have a blog before that, he didn’t care about the war?
In comment 189 you claim that you used to post as a female on his blog back in the olden days. I don’t get it: is your self-admitted sock-puppetry supposed to give you credibility? Why would you brag about that?
Danny
@Danny: *you’re
Corner Stone
@clayton: Mona? Sure I remember her. She slung coffee and hash at the diner on the corner of 57th street and Austin.
Super nice. I always tipped her a little extra because she had a daughter at home.
Sweet girl.
clayton
@balki: You are kidding me, right?
Spectre
@clayton:
False. You got owned a while back and have yet to respond to the arguments that were laid out.
Your cowardice is legendary.
balki
@clayton: No. Please explain.
clayton
@Corner Stone: So like you to denigrate a major player because she is a female.
Well played STONE.
clayton
@Spectre: Show me where Greenwald had a problem with the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
Danny
@Omnes Omnibus:
@Corner Stone:
Just so we’re clear here: the acknowledged mistreatment was that he was placed on suicide watch for three days – correct – while according to procedure he should not have been?
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Hey, back in the day, my take was that we didn’t know whether what was happening was par for the course for prisoners, in which case it was an indictment of our prison system, or if it it was Manning specific, in which case, absent legal justification, it was abusive treatment. That question has been answered. I think that his treatment warrants an investigation and there should be consequences for those responsible.
At the same time, based on what I have read, I think that Manning will probably and deservedly be convicted of a number of crimes relating to misuse of intelligence. His mistreatment during pretrial confinement should be taken in to consideration during any sentencing proceedings.
Clime Acts
@eemom:
Hi Elaine.
Yes, we have a long and tortured history.
That’s why it’s special. :D
Now…please post another virulent, GG-hating comment, complete with insectoid and scatalogical references. They titillate me so.
Spectre
@clayton:
Already posted multi-times in this very thread noobie! Do I need to start posting in crayon for you?
You’re in a hole. Stop hitting yourself in the head with a shovel.
clayton
Fuck you guys. Its the “someone is wrong on the internet” time for me.
Glenn didn’t care about any of this until 2005.
If you disagree, show me where he cared before 2005.
John Cole can.
Joe Boehmouth
Am I the only one who is glad Manning did the docs dump AND acknowledges that he committed a crime AND thinks it’s likely that the military correctional system is treating him vindictively?
We learned a lot of valuable things about what our foreign policy apparatus is doing. Manming took a big risk in dumping the docs and he got caught. I don’t think he souldn’t do serious time for it. But I still feel grateful to him, and intend to watc his back.
balki
@clayton: I asked you a question that directly relates to your 2005 claim. Why do you expect there to be a record of Greenwald’s opposition to the war prior to 2005 when he didn’t start blogging until October 2005?
Spectre
@clayton:
False. Oh well, the wild idiotmon has fled the battle!
Corner Stone
@clayton: Denigrate? I thought she was awesome. Always got the pancakes and eggs over easy out right on time.
Sometimes when it was slow we’d discuss Descartes and the argument that Time was a concept created by mankind because his brain was too tiny to conceive of the Cartesian coordinate system.
You do her a disservice by slagging her here as some kind of totem as your jihad against Greater Greenwaldia.
clayton
@Joe Boehmouth: Did you care about this in 2003?
Omnes Omnibus
@Joe Boehmouth: Two out of three ain’t bad.
clayton
@Spectre: I’ll ask the same question: Did you care in 2003?
Nope.
I did.
Spectre
@Joe Boehmouth:
Everyone except the extreme right wing partisans of the business party fations, supports what Manning did.
Spectre
@clayton:
False. And already proven false in this thread.
The stupid, how it burns.
clayton
Glenn was not all about civil this and dead that in 2005 or 2004 or 2003.
Glenn didn’t care.
He cares NOW?
balki
@clayton: Well, now you’re just making your trolling obvious. A little more subtlety and you could have kept this thread going for another 150 comments.
Spectre
@clayton:
You’re wrong again! How many times will you embarrass yourself?
clayton
I almost lost my job over the Iraq war.
Glenn Greenwald was defending a white supremasist during that time.
Later, he abused his researcher. I thought there might have been some Mona supporters here.
That’s a negative.
Glenn is just using you, John Cole.
Spectre
@clayton:
False! Wrong again #48
Oh the stupid, how it burns.
clayton
@Spectre: What have you risked?Glenn has risked nothing. Nor have you.
clayton
@Spectre:
Seriously?
Spectre
@clayton:
False. Wrong again #49!
danielx
Americans don’t commit war crimes. Everybody knows that. You some kind of commie?
balki
@clayton: So what if he was defending a white supremacist? He was an attorney. Everyone is entitled to defense, regardless of how heinous their views may be. How does the fact that you almost lost your job relate to Glenn? And why should we give a shit?
Spectre
@balki:
Just take an instant dislike to Clayton. It’ll save you time.
Spectre
@clayton:
Want more of this shit son!? I’ll out debate that ass all night, like I’ve been doing all thread long. You’ve still yet to respond to the arguments! lulz@u!
Omnes Omnibus
@danielx: I know you are just trolling, but we are just a week past the anniversary of My Lai. Some shit ain’t funny.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
I was talking about Afghanistan, since my entire commentary on this thread is about Afghanistan. I am not surprised that 15, 000 had not been counted in Iraq.
No. I’m claiming on going operations could be compromised, and I can see why you’re a GG acolyte with the subtle misreading to make an invalid point.
He started to make the effort, then said fuckit and dumped all the Afghan docs at the same time. Claiming he didn’t have time to vet the docs, and wait on the media people he sent them too. It caused a revolt in his own group over his reckless handling of the Afghan documents, concerning vetting to protect the innocent.
And I’m the one with facile knowledge on this topic?
I’m an army vet. And you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about. And in the end, it doesn’t matter legally, what the damage was from the leaks. And again, the military has charged Manning with ‘lending aid and comfort” to the enemy. I doubt they would have done that without the evidence to prove it is court.
@The Tragically Flip:
Cool, you cite GG for your evidence. sorry, I don’t believe a word the man says. cole does though. Maybe youze two can compare notes.
And why I said “solely’ on motives of conscience about the war, which is what you have been opining on this thread. Without considering any other motive as well. Learn to read.
Listen, I hope that Bradley gets a fair trial, and if he deserves breaks for whatever reason, then I am for that. What pisses me off is people like you and GG blowing smoke up our asses, to apologize for what this person allegedly did. With all sorts of deflective bullshit, to steer away from the basic facts of the case. As some kind of whistleblowing hero. And twisting around facts to do so.
This culty behavior is beyond creepy, and it has manifested itself in other ways than through GG, though he is one of the main culprit of misleading punditry.
danielx
@Omnes Omnibus:
Omnes, i’m goofing without humor. Anybody – any country – in a war commits war crimes. That’s what war does.
It is cruelty, and you cannot refine it.
clayton
@balki:
You never read UT, right? You don’t know who Mona was/is.
Otherwise you would have contributed to her cause.
Spectre
@clayton:
False! Wrong again #50!
Omnes Omnibus
@danielx: Okay. This is a weird thread. People are posting some strange shit. I didn’t know.
balki
@clayton: Actually, I read UT from the beginning. But I didn’t read the comments. I have no clue who Mona is. Why don’t you fill me in?
balki
@clayton: And while you’re at it, fill us in on how Glenn caused you to “almost” lose your job.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Omnes Omnibus:
I swear, if I ever get involved with another one of these threads, I am authorizing you to tell me how stupid that is. I will give you a Hamburger next Tuesday for services rendered.
Omnes Omnibus
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero): I came in late and read through it before I wrote anything. Tempers snapped. Friendships severed. Names called. This had all of them. Oh, and the people talking past one another. Lovely. BTW, I’ll take you up on that offer.
Danny
@clayton:
Oh, but he did care about your 2nd amendment right to arm yourself in defense against ‘government tyranny’. He did care about the ‘intense dislike’ of Bush over his ‘steadfastness and refusal to play by the long-standing rules of the Washington establishment’ by the Washington press corps. It made ‘media drones’ like Seymor Hersh feel ‘impotent’.
Worth a full quote:
Oh yes, Papa Bear Bush made Glenn tingly enough to consider starting loving the bomb.
Also, too: Here he argues that while the rest of the world may hate us over the Iraq war, we shouldn’t give a sh-t because they just dont understand the threat we are under from radical islamists, and we should feel free to deal with that in whatever way we see fit. Caring about international opinion is pure folly.
Oh yes indeed – johnny-come-lately to TEH ANTIWAR, never got what that whole Iraq thing was about.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Notice he doesn’t offer a remedy.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Neither do you. Bad thread. Best to nuke it from orbit.
Skippy the Wondermule
Agree or disagree with him, Greenwald is smarter than almost anyone who posts a comment here, including me.
Omnes Omnibus
@Skippy the Wondermule: Nope.
ETA: You underestimate the commentariat here. Your self-estimate I will leave unaddressed.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Kind of a stupid riposte.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: This thread has been full of dumbass, hot-headed comments from all sides. It is probably best that people just walk away.
ETA: That was what I was trying to convey. It seems I was unsuccessful. Oh, well.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Both sides!
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: On occasion, it is true.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Bullshit. there was one fucking side here slamming the fucking cage to discredit what was right and actually fucking factual.
And there was a contigent that said, “Excuse me? That shit is true. Not an opinion.”
And it’s the same god damned authoritarian motherfucking assholes here claiming Manning should just get brain panned and be done with it. They’re fine with that.
Don’t motherfucking tell me it’s a “both sides” situation. There is an objective factual side here.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@brantl:
One last response. I missed earlier. No, I don’t have a reading problem with this charge. As it is classic Greenwald to lie without clearly lying. He say’s Its “similar” to high government officials getting “immunized”, when it is obvious that there is nothing similar with that for someone charged with 17 counts of capital murder – and the dipshits here that can’t muster a critical thought, it goes right over their heads, that GG has made a allegation that is plausibly deniable. But an allegation none the less.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Corner Stone:
You wouldn’t know a fact if one crawled up your ass and laid eggs.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: It quickly became a Greenwald thread where Manning was incidental. There are dipshits arguing that Manning should be summarily shot then drawn and quarted and there are dipshits suggesting that he be given the Medal of Freedom and Nobel Peace Prize at a joint ceremony.* I stated my opinion above. If you have issues with it, I am willing to discuss it. Otherwise, I stand by my view that this thread descended deep into assholery on both sides. YMMV.
*Hyperbole.
Tony the Wonderhorse (formerly Skippy the Wondermule)
Here’s my honest opinion. Manning was made an example of because there is video from the Bush years of Americans torturing Muslims TO DEATH, probably as they enjoyed themselves. I have met such men, honest, and they are sadists who love their work. If (when actually) such video gets out, it will be the end of the American Empire and the beginning of the next round of terrorism. We will be proved to be the Great Satan, it will be over and we will have lost.
Once upon a time I loved America. Let’s hope the world ends in December and we can just avoid this shit.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: What’s wrong with you? There’s no equivalence here.
The action, legality or illegality of the action is irrelevant to the subsequent treatment.
We can’t do something to someone just because we don’t like what they did.
Once that is past, there is no equivalence to this thread.
There is nothing to argue about.
different-church-lady
@Soonergrunt:
So, what you’re saying here is you are not aware of all internet traditions?
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Apparently I am an authoritarian asshole or a Broderian asshole. Your choice. If you don’t know how arguments run, especially those with gadflies like you trying to goad people into pushing further… Ah, but then you do. Tempers flare. You push buttons. People say stupid shit. You giggle.
I am not getting trapped into defending statements with which I don’t agree. Cheers.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s an easy peasy escape. But not working.
This involves a set of objective facts. And objective liars.
different-church-lady
@Spectre:
He must be so proud.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Scroll up and read what I wrote on the topic.
boss bitch
@The Tragically Flip:
Get the fucking fuck out of here with that bullshit. You are crediting Manning with the Arab Spring? Are you fucking kid me right now? Holy Shit!
different-church-lady
@Skippy the Wondermule:
Undoubtedly he is very good at making himself appear so, of that there is no question.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus:
Now he must be really proud.
boss bitch
@Skippy the Wondermule:
Uhm, no. He’s very good at using big and inflammatory words to make a point. Whether that point is based on facts is another story.
eemom
good heavens, WHAT have you people been up to? When last I left this thread, Timmy and I were setting a fine example of brotherhood from sea to shining sea, and now you’ve fucked it all up. Sheesh.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: I tried. I failed. I am sorry.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not YOUR fault, my good Omnes! It seems that the Troll Hall of Fame left its doors unlocked this evening.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: But I did try ever so hard. And then Corner Stone was mean. I believe I shall cry.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Maybe it’s time for you to have a good cry. Probably do you good.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Thank you for your input. Maybe I will go watch Brian’s Song. Even though it is about Bears, it does work.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Mmmm…not yet.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@burnspbesq:
But Greenwald did write this in the preface of his first book:
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@MosesZD:
Because the isolation unit at Ft. Leavenworth was still under construction.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@The Tragically Flip:
Yeah, and one of the documents showed that the Obama administration was blowing off Bibi’s reasoning for attacking Iran in 2009…But I’m sure if I continue reading, you will have already brought that up, unprompted.
Dylan
What an embarrasing bunch of nitwits. No wonder US politics is so fvcked, if this is the standard of discourse inside the rational wing of the political spectrum.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Joe Boehmouth:
When did THAT happen?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Danny:
DAMN!
If Greenwald warn’t for it…If I was gay I’d ask you toMARRY ME, YA MAGNIFICENT BASTARD!Dylan
@Dylan: Though, having said, that, we’re just electing the Australian version of the republican party here tonight, partly as a result of similar nitwittery here.
runt
If Romney wins in November, it’ll be quite a spectacle to see how hordes of Balloon Juice commenters will suddenly rediscover their concern for human rights and the rule of law.
H Squared
His analysis suggests that the crusader against the “inhumane treatment” of Manning thinks it’s only fare that Bales is treated the same way. If he’s truly against the treatment that Manning received, shouldn’t he be cheering that Bales isn’t being treated the same way?
El Cid
@Danny:
Yes; and dispatching 10,000 ninja warriors to assassinate anyone in the USSR who looked like Stalin also would have been a crime, I think. I’m thinking that neither hypothetical is analogous to Manning’s criminal act. I once kept a library book without having paid for it, which was also a criminal act.
But, of course, Manning didn’t kill anyone, and no one yet has, as far as I know, presented any evidence that the release of these fairly low-level documents led to the deaths of US servicemen or US officials.
My point was different — it was a statement of the apparent net effect of these low-level diplomatic documents’ release — these weren’t troop movements or any other sort of action-movie type spycraft — and my own judgment of the value of their release versus my own life, and I weighed the net effect on the world as better than safeguarding my own life in the US military.
If I weren’t willing to risk my life in exchange for the possible liberation of millions of people from brute (and frequently U.S.-backed) tyranny because I feared for my or fellow servicemembers’ lives, then I would have been some amoral freak who had no point serving in US forces anyway.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@El Cid:
The difference being that you can know more now about the contents of that document dump than (alleged* doc-dumper)Manning knew then, when he just (allegedly*) dumped blindly. For all he knew, his (alleged*) actions could have compounded upon those millions of deaths- and who knows if they still won’t?
*Because, per Greenwald, Lamo lies, that’s why! Way to cover all those bases, GG!
Samara Morgan
Fuckwits of BJ unite .
Why do we need WL?
Goggle danger room Utah facility.
Manning is a hero and WL is one of things between us and a totalitarian fascist state. Obama is another.
Danny
@El Cid:
Point is, if you have a problem with what is a punishable offense under the UCMJ that’s one thing, and it transcends Manning. Asking that the UCMJ should not apply to Manning simply because you happen to like the guy and you thought what he did was right, is no different than asking that Pollard should go free.
What about Sabu and the rest of lulzsec? Do you feel that they should go free as well?
That will be tried in Manning’s court martial. Do you disapprove of just letting that process play out and Manning getting whatever punishment due for what he’s found guilty of?
With all due respect, I don’t think you’re in a position to have an informed opinion on that. If you have at least a little faith in the court-martial system then I think a good idea would be to let them work out what damage he caused, if any. Assuming Manning did leak what he’s said to have leaked, I think it’s clear enough that he acted in a reckless manner which does not conform to a responsible act of whistle blowing. Manning, from what we’ve heard so far, was in no position to know what operations, interests and individuals might be put at risk by his actions. The volume of stuff that he leaked is simply to big. What damage he did cause is for the court-martial to determine.
Well, if you were willing to do that, then you had better be prepared to take the punishment, right?
And I still don’t get how you can consistently argue that you’re allowed to break the UCMJ (and in a way that does not legally qualify as whistle blowing) if your conscience tells you it’s the right thing to do, but you’re not allowed to gun down George Tiller if your conscience tells you that he is a mass murderer, legally murdering little children and getting away with it. Boils down to: “It’s alright to break the law for me, not for thee, because my moral sense is superior to yours.”
You want the law to reflect your personal morality. Don’t you know by now why the world cannot and should not work like that?
different-church-lady
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I think Joe means that Joe himself makes that acknowledgment, not Manning.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Bwwwwaahahahahhhhaaahahahah!! All this bullshit from a bootlicking authoritarian bushie Iraq war supporter, Glenn Greenwald. You can’t make this shit up. Though it does make for some kind of strange brew on a bloggy acid trip.
samara morgan
lissen assclowns.
the US is building the worlds largest data archive and unless you want karl rove to turn the land of the free and the home of the brave into the New Fascist States of Amerikkka you best stop whining about Obama.
I, personally, would crawl over a bed of radioactive broken glass to get Obama re-elected.
fuck you glenn greenwald and the john cole horse you rode in here on.
Tony the Wonderhorse (formerly Skippy the Wondermule)
Intelligent people have the ability to see intelligence in others.
Sincere but misguided people have the ability to deny intelligence in others.
I have spoken. (bonus points for getting this)
Samara Morgan
I see no intelligence. I see wistful thinking and nostalgie. I worked for those guys. They have no self deprecating humor.
Still…..America, given Obama and WL, the least bad alternative.
Someone is going to do it.