Here we go, as we enter the inevitable “Trayvon had it coming” stage of this story:
Trayvon Martin may have attacked a Neighborhood Watch captain before the man shot dead the unarmed teen in a gated community in Florida, an anonymous witness who spoke to police claimed yesterday.
The witness, known only as John, told Sanford police that he saw Martin on top of George Zimmerman shortly before the fatal shot that has led to a national outcry, including a huge ‘hoodie’ march in Philadelphia last night. He recounted the details to Fox 35 News in Florida.
I don’t know how this changes anything for me. Even if there was a fight and Zimmerman was losing, the entirety of the blame lies with Zimmerman. He was the wannabe cop cruising around acting like a tough guy. He was the one who saw a black guy and immediately thought “crook.” He was the one who called 911. He was the one who pursued Trayvon, ignoring the explicit instructions of the cops. He was the one who confronted Trayvon. And he was the one who shot him.
Even if Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman got into a scuffle, Trayvon is the one who gets to claim self-defense here. He wasn’t the predator following Zimmerman with a loaded gun, it was the other way around.
Trayvon Martin is dead, and one person is responsible for all of the series of actions that led to his death. That person is George Zimmerman.
Elizabelle
Logic. How does it work?
protected static
Is The Daily Mail the only source for this? If so, odds of it being true rapidly approach zero…
(ah, reading comprehension FTW – it’s a racist Brit tabloid citing a TV report… The story fits the Mail’s agenda, though…)
Ruckus
It changes everything but reality.
Cat Lady
What could go wrong?
wrb
@protected static:
No, it was on NPR this morning
MattF
Um, let’s see– anonymous eyewitness at night, in the rain, several days after the event. Blames dead kid.
David Koch
Even if this were true, you can’t shoot someone for simply punching you.
JPL
So if Trayvon stands his ground, he’s the aggressor even though he didn’t have a car to retreat to. Did he approach Zimmerman? The entire blame the victim is try to say the law worked. What I say is bullshit.
also,too they tested the dead guy for drugs and alcohol but not the guy carrying the gun……hmmmmmmm
PPOG Penguin
There’s a old English proverb: “Daily Mail at night, shilling for the far right. Daily Mail in the morning, xenophobic hysteria warning.”
Just Some Fuckhead
How do we know Trayvon Martin didn’t steal those skittles?
JPL
@David Koch: you actually can if you reasonably think your life or someone’s life is in danger. The law sucks.
gocart mozart
It changes the crime from 1st degree murder to 2nd degree murder.
Libby
Awfully bloody convenient for an anon witness to show up, now almost a month after the actual incident. And I seem to recall there were at least three witnesses that came forward immediately and said they saw Zimmerman instigating the fight and the cops tried to get one of those witnesses to reverse her testimony.
schrodinger's cat
My husband who is originally from India likes to run and when he runs guess what he wears to keep warm if it is slightly cold, a hoodie. His favoritest hoodie is quite grungy looking. So after reading about this incident, I told him you better not wear your hoodie, when you are running.
JPL
Zimmerman can get off just because of the way the law is written.
wrb
oh this is clever
edit
hadn’t read this part
Fun times.
What a blessing for Fox.
JPL
Here is the law..It is legalized lynching
handy
How do we know the anonymous witness didn’t come forward before out of fear for their own safety? It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Emrventures
According to the article, the witness was “trying to call 911.” Were they getting a busy signal? They did or they didn’t. If the call was made, 911 has it, and it will be on the public record soon.
Also, how is it that the Daily Mail has the anonymous witness, but no sources in the US?
Just Some Fuckhead
@handy:
If the witness truly felt threatened, the witness should have murdered someone.
lawguy
@David Koch: Actually, I think you might be able to in Florida.
handy
@Just Some Fuckhead:
What if TRAYVON stole the gun?!
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
Yep. Between the ‘hoodie’ and this, people are trying to cast the die of ‘Trayvon the violent Thug’. They’re late in doing so, so I can’t imagine it will stick…but my worry is that it inserts JUST enough uncertainty that Zimmerman gets by under law, if not the court of public opinion.
Woodrowfan
so the 150 lb kid was on top of the 250 lb Zimmerman pounding away? Yeah, sure.
wrb
@Woodrowfan:
I suspect is is a very jiggly 250 lbs
WJS
More proof that Zimmerman is a punk. Even with all of that gumption, intestinal fortitude, cop instincts, excellent training, and street smarts, he still nearly ended up getting his ass kicked by a kid who had done nothing wrong.
This guy is supercop. Wingnut welfare will kick in and give him a badge and three guns by the end of the month, probably in Arizona.
Mino
How long before sports apparel companies get together and file a lawsuit against Geraldo?
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
Not as I understand it, in the libertarian paradise
hellthat is Florida with its laws of the jungle. The only person that ends up on the short end of that legal stick, is the one that didn’t bring a gun to a skittles fight. If there is testimony along the lines of what this new so called “witness” says happened, that is reasonable doubt, and Zimmerman walks.And since it is near impossible to use the fed statute for civil rights violation when no government agent is involved, that is a long shot, at best, for Trayvon to get justice. THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT THE WINGNUTS HAD IN MIND WHEN THEY PASSED THIS HIDEOUS LAW.
Linda Featheringill
I feel I should stand up and say something but everything is so mixed up. The law is an invitation to violence, the police are biased or worse, the professional right-wing blowhards are spewing forth pure dirt, and then there is Zimmerman.
No matter who said what to whom before and during the confrontation, if Zimmerman felt threatened, why didn’t he just drive away?
Unless, of course, what Zimmerman was actually doing was hunting.
ETA:
I hate humans. Sigh.
Corner Stone
@David Koch:
You can defend yourself with deadly force if someone is attacking you. It’s called “disparity of force”.
And if you are unclear on what that means it is your problem, not the law’s.
cathyx
This seems suspect to me. It came very late, and it’s anonymous. Can’t say I believe it.
Corner Stone
@JPL:
There’s an infamous video of a large male beating a smaller male to death in a McDonald’s, which is used as defense of the disparity of force argument.
Anyone who has ever watched it can’t forget how no one in the restaurant intervened or called 911 over several minutes of the altercation.
Schad
This is nothing. Presume many have now seen them, but there are pictures of Martin mugging for the camera (possibly from Facebook) that a number of right-wing sites are passing off as evidence that he was a dangerous thug. When in doubt, double down on OMG Scary Black People!!!!!
Brachiator
@JPL:
The law is also self contradictory. Martin was standing his ground, and may have had as much a right to fear for his life as Zimmerman. Even more so, since Zimmerman had a weapon and Martin did not.
The law also seems to invalidate laws against assault, which is absurd. It suggests that a person could go up to a person, start a fight, and then kill the person as soon as he or she felt in fear of his or her own life.
And to return to the original comment, this law not only sanctions lynching, it say that black males must passively submit to their own lynching.
Zimmerman had no authority to follow Martin, to stop him, to question him, or to impede his ability to go about his business.
But Martin ends up shot to death, and only Zimmerman had the right to stand his ground.
Nicole
I’m still most astounded by Geraldo, who, in his tweet about his son’s reaction to his dad’s idiocy, managed to shift the blame for the killing from the victim to the victim’s parents.
I imagine there are no mirrors in his home, because how could he bear to look at himself in one?
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
But to believe this witness, you have to believe that a 17 year old teenager weighing 140 pounds soaking wet, could get on top of a grown man weighing more than a hundred pounds more, at 250 pds.
Clime Acts
None of us motherfuckers knows shit about what really went down, in the details, before the young man was murdered. Why is that so hard to admit?
We could, you know, wait for the results of a credible investigation, probably by the feds.
It’s kind of sad and tacky to see Trayvon’s death reduced to just another excuse for pre-emptive, uninformed, but self pleasing, outrage here.
Just Some Fuckhead
Was Zimmerman wearing a hoodie? Because if he was, that could explain why Trayvon Martin attacked him.
lamh35
@Nicole: it gets worse, apparently he’s doubled down and now he invoking the unabomber!
Citizen_X
@General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero): What could this testimony change? The facts are still:
1) Zimmerman followed Trayvon when the dispatcher specifically told him not to;
2) Trayvon noticed Zimmerman following him, was scared, and told his girlfriend so on the phone;
3) Zimmerman got out of his vehicle.
Does the law protect people looking for a fight?
WJS
@Corner Stone: Bullcrap.
“A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”
That was clearly not the case with Trayvon Martin. He was being chased and hunted down by a man armed with a gun. Martin wasn’t doing anything that even remotely rises to the level of a felony, nor was he a threat to anyone whatsoever. He was unarmed. He was well within his rights to be out in public and on the street and walking around. Zimmerman was running around acting like supercop, looking for his moment to become some sort of hero. Trayvon was in it for the Skittles; ZImmerman was in it for the glory.
Zimmerman was the aggressor. Zimmerman was told to stop by the 911 dispatcher. Zimmerman went after Martin.
Draw circle on wall; pound head.
PeakVT
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: I guess I have the opposite take. I don’t see this as an effort to get help Zimmerman off. I think it’s more aimed at keeping the law from being overturned. This witness sounds bogus (why haven’t we heard of him before if he was right there) and I doubt it will hold up in court, but in the court of public opinion things reports like that tend to take hold.
DCLaw1
Two observations I’d like to make.
(1) As Cole intimated, it strains credulity to say that a person should be able to avail themselves of a self-defense policy, even one like Florida’s, when they were the one’s initiating the confrontation. My memory may be cloudy, as it has been years since law school and I haven’t dealt with this issue in work, but I seem to recall a line of court cases standing for the proposition that one cannot claim self-defense when one has voluntarily created a situation that could foreseeably result in the violence for which one wants to claim self-defense. In other words, my impression is that actual case law, you will be shocked to hear, follows the commonsense view.
(2) So far, I’ve seen no one comment on the likely fact that, if there were to be a federal civil rights (“hate crime”) prosecution in this case, the Florida State standard would not apply. That is, federal prosecutors would work under the more common self-defense rules, in which the burden to prove self-defense is on the defendant (where it should be), not on the prosecution to prove the defendant did not have a reasonable fear of death or serious harm. At the same time, federal prosecutors would have the additional burden of proving that Zimmerman’s actions were, beyond a reasonable doubt, motivated by animus for Martin’s race or color, so the federal case would be easier in some respects and harder in others.
Chuck Butcher
If I were a 14 yr old being followed by an adult in a car I might work up to some concern. The fact that the police seem to have neglected that aspect, to me, speaks volumes. The fact that the kid wound up dead thanks to that behavior would seem to me to go to where manslaughter statutes start to apply. It would seem that Martin would have been justified in shooting Zimmerman – actually.
Corner Stone
@WJS: Ummm, I never once said that this was the case here. Just stating the FACT that disparity of force is a legal defense.
If you don’t believe that, then your argument is not with me but with several states.
handy
@WJS:
Read the last sentence you quote again though. “If he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm.” This is why Zimmerman walks.
Citizen_X
Wow, that sounds really dangerous, playing with fire, etc, etc. But hey, guys, if you get into a nasty, scary situation down there, you know what the law in Florida lets you do…
DCLaw1
@Corner Stone: The best a defendant can do if he killed someone in self defense, but his doing so was disproportionate to the perceived threat, is a conviction for voluntary manslaughter (as distinct from involuntary manslaughter, such as killing someone in a drunk driving accident).
This is the result of an “imperfect” self-defense case. The law essentially says that the actions were still criminally blameworthy (for being disproportionate), but not as blameworthy as murder, i.e., killing with malice and not out of any attempt at self-defense, disproportionate or otherwise.
Fwiffo
Even if Martin was using deadly force in the fight (e.g. bashing Zimmerman’s head against the pavement), wouldn’t he have that right under the “stand your ground” statute? Zimmerman started an altercation with Martin while armed, which made him clearly a deadly threat.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
@Citizen_X:
irrelevant. It is a free country and Zimmerman could confront Martin, regardless of what the dispatcher recommended.
Same irrelevance. Physical assault trumps what he told his girlfriend, if true, this witness. which I very highly doubt is true as stated at this time.
It would seem so, if the confronted initiates physical contact, and doesn’t have a gun, all the other factors are moot. This law is deeply heinous, and leaves wide open, for situations like this to occur, from idiots like Zimmerman, who likely knows of the advantage he has. There are people out there, who simply want to experience the killing of another person. Most of them are inhibited by sane laws of fight or flee. This law gives license to fuckwits like Zimmerman to live out their fantasy, and get away with it.
Once a common fist fight happens, the one that escalates to lethal force is protected under the law. That is not only wrong by any common sense for self protection, it is quite evil and a ticket for racists to do what Zimmerman did, and get away with it.
Felanius Kootea
@Clime Acts: We do know one thing though: the 911 dispatcher asked Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon and Zimmerman ignored that. It’s hard to believe that Trayvon would be dead if Zimmerman had kept his distance and waited for the police to show up, as requested. He seems to have violated many common sense rules involving neighborhood watch, and that riles me (and many other people) up.
He may well walk, given the Florida law, but it shows a giant gaping flaw: the dead person isn’t able to give his side of the story and the survivor can lie through his teeth and the police have to accept his word unless there are other witnesses. Now we have a situation where some witnesses say that Zimmerman was the aggressor and was crying out for help and a new witness who says Trayvon was the aggressor. Hope the feds are able to sort out who’s telling the truth about what.
Felanius Kootea
@Clime Acts: We do know one thing though: the 911 dispatcher asked Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon and Zimmerman ignored that. It’s hard to believe that Trayvon would be dead if Zimmerman had kept his distance and waited for the police to show up, as requested. He seems to have violated many common sense rules involving neighborhood watch, and that riles me (and many other people) up.
He may well walk, given the Florida law, but it shows a giant gaping flaw: the dead person isn’t able to give his side of the story and the survivor can lie through his teeth and the police have to accept his word unless there are other witnesses. Now we have a situation where some witnesses say that Zimmerman was the aggressor and was crying out for help and a new witness who says Trayvon was the aggressor. Hope the feds are able to sort out who’s telling the truth about what.
Aaron Baker
I strongly recommend this article by Emily Bazelon:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/03/florida_s_stand_your_ground_law_doesn_t_prohibit_that_they_arrest_george_zimmerman_for_killing_trayvon_martin_.html
It convincingly addresses several of the questions discussed here, including who had the better claim to a reasonable fear for his safety on that night.
Self-defense law throughout the US is predicated on a reasonable fear for one’s safety. Even the Florida law requires that the user of deadly force “reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.” Self-defense based on reasonable fear for one’s safety doesn’t have an exception for teenage black boys, except perhaps in the minds of some Fox News contributors.
rikyrah
Trayvon was a 17 year old boy.
In a place that was NOT his home.
at night.
He believes some White MAN, who outweighs him by over 100 pounds
is FOLLOWING HIM.
explain it to me like I’m a child:
what the hell do you tell YOUR CHILDREN about strangers following them?
this boy was MURDERED.
rikyrah
about the New BLack Panther Party:
do I gotta say it?
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
all these types that I’ve ever known are some of the brokest mofos on the planet…between them they couldn’t pull together 100 dollars let alone 10 thousand.
where’d they get the money?
Bubblegum Tate
That’s been the wingnut version of the story for at least several days now: Martin had not only knocked down Zimmerman, but was kneeling on him, pummeling him until Zimmerman finally shot him in pure self-defense.
It’s the standard wingnut cheer:
Who do we blame?
THE VICTIM!
When do we blame them?
ALWAYS!
Woodrowfan
I agree, especially given all the other evidence. Stinks to high heaven.
El Cid
Look, a lot of America may not have the courage to FACE THE FACTS, that it might just be necessary that people, especially white people, be allowed to decide when a black man has to die.
Yes, sometimes there will be tragedies, someone’s loved one vanishes from life, someone’s aspiring dreams crushed, but what is the alternative? Letting people, especially white people, walk around in fear that a black male might be menacing them?
And your only choice is supposed to be to restrict yourself to killing that black male only when some ‘objective’ source (such as a jury or prosecutor) decides that it was ‘absolutely necessary’ for self-defense or whatever?
What kind of life is that to live? What kind of life is it when people, in particular white or whitish people, might have to walk around in the frightening knowledge that if they feel it’s necessary to end the life of some black male, they might actually be questioned, perhaps even arrested or punished for doing so?
Black males die off a lot anyway. What, a few more is some sort of national tragedy? Get real.
The Republic of Stupidity
This is my favorite bullet point from the MailOnline article…
Reminds me of a moment back in the 60’s, during the race riots that took place in Rochester (upstate, Doug… yer turf…)
I remember my future brother-in-law coming by the house in a state of agitation one night… he had heard a RUMOR! that carloads of angry blacks had been spotted driving around the countryside in the dark, blasting thru the sleepy farming communities that ringed Rochester and giving de white foke a hard time… PAYBACK
, Mofo!And he and his buddies weren’t gonna take this lying down… they were gittin’ their shotguns out and iffin’ANY of those uppity so’n’so’s showed up in THEIR neck of the woods… they’d show them a thing or two…
True story, that… not making it up…
Some things never change, do they?
J. Michael Neal
At this point, I think Floridians should just start shooting each other as a part of daily life.
Someone tries to shake your hand? He *could* be a ninja about to crush your windpipe.
Someone offers you a cookie? You remember what your mother told you about people that do that, don’t you?
Someone yells a greeting from across the street? They’re probably trying to distract you so you don’t notice that guy sneaking up behind you; better shoot them both.
The Republic of Stupidity
And it’s not just Florida…
This hapless fool in NH feels so threatened at ALL times, he carries not ONE, but TWO gats on him at all times… I wonder if he sleeps w/ the farkin’ shoulder holsters on…
jpe
That’s what one of the witnesses said he saw
jpe
That’s what one of the witnesses said he saw
Percysowner
Sadly the one thing I get from this is if you shoot someone in Florida, make certain you kill them. Then you can say any damned thing you please and get away with murder. Do NOT leave them alive to contradict your story.
Tom Maguire
Comment-diving, from 4:49:
“Awfully bloody convenient for an anon witness to show up, now almost a month after the actual incident.”
Actually, The Mail is re-running a report from Fox 35 Orlando from Feb 27, 2012, the day after the shooting.
If this is an new phase of the story, it is the phase that involves trying to reconcile the agreed narrative with pesky previous reporting.
That said, I mostly agree that Zimmerman behaved badly and could have avoided this whole mess by staying in his car.
However, he retained the legal right to walk the streets and to be a self-important jerk (valuable protection all bloggers should endorse, and many commenters too.)
*If* Trayvon initiated the violence, “Stand Your Ground” may still apply. As I understand it (and IANL) the state needs to prove it does not apply. Absent witnesses, good luck.
Rick Taylor
It changes things for me, in that it makes me think maybe Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter rather than murder.
But really, it doesn’t matter what I think. There ought to be a trial in which all the evidence on both sides is presented in full and Zimmerman is represented by legal council, and then a jury can come to a fully informed verdict. The police do not (or should not) get to come to a scene where a man has shot an unarmed kid after pursuing him, interview a few witnesses, and say ehhh looks like self defense to us, you can go. That’s not their job.
Rick Taylor
Not sure if this is has been posted already, but this is the clip with a witness who stated Martin was beating Zimmerman before he was shot.
Edit: The video has been removed. Dang.
Schlemizel
@Rick Taylor:
No, if dinglenuts started the fight, was getting his ass handed to him & decided to shoot the kid it is still murder.
jharp
Long time fan here but I have to say the comments are pretty fucking brilliant.
Thank you ladies and gentlemen.
gwangung
@Corner Stone: Shitty comment. Even shittier legal comment.
You’re being a real asshole tonight, aren’t you?
gwangung
@Schlemizel: That’s the common sense and the legal view elsewhere, but unfortunately, there is case law where manslaughter convictions have been thrown out even though the accused chased after the victim to confront him.
jnc
Actually, what the police said after Zimmerman said he was following Martin was “We do not need you to do that.”
Explicit would be “Do not do that.” And I guess that “explicit” in bold would be “Do NOT do that.”
This follows Tom Levinson posting that some politician (who was attempting to justify the “stand your ground” law) was a “liar” after he said that violent crime in Floirida dropped between 2005 and 2012. Levinson’s statement wasn’t true. Violent crime did drop. By 14%. (Does that mean that it was because of the law? No, obviously)
And that followed Soonergrunt’s post that the 911 tape showed that a woman called 911 because of a gunshot, there was yelling, and then “another” shot rang out. That wasn’t true. The woman was calling because she heard and argument. She didn’t even mention a shot until 45 seconds into the tape when a shot was fired.
So let me ask this in as polite a way as I can: what the fuck is wrong with you people?
You’ve got a situation where a big, non-black guy chases after a teenager, probably called him a “fucking coon” under his breath while talking to the 911 dispatcher, and then shoots the kid who is armed with a bag of skittles. Is there not enough there in that little scenario to get pissed off about that you don’t need to make up additional shit?
Do you not realize that, a la Mike Daisey, that making stuff does not really help you convince people of anything?
(And, for the record, as I said days ago, Zimmerman was a jerk and he may have committed a crime here … but none of us really know what the facts are yet.)
Corner Stone
@gwangung: What the fuck is wrong with you? I made a comment about someone ignorantly saying you can’t shoot someone “for just punching you”. It is absolutely clear under the law that in some cases you can make the disparity of force argument.
I’m sorry you don’t like that FACT but you can go fuck yourself if you have a problem with that FACT.
Cacti
None of this has any evidentiary basis, but let’s pretend for a moment that he took a swing at Zimmerman, now let’s imagine…
You’re 17 years old, walking back from the store, and you notice an older, unidentified man tailing you in his car. You try to ditch him but don’t succeed, and eventually he leaves his car and approaches you.
What reasonable person wouldn’t be thinking “This man wants to do me harm”?
Ella in New Mexico
This is so fucking obvious, for all the reasons you listed. I am guessing this “witness” is really a “sympathizer” at the least.
jprfrog
So for argument grant that Martin is on top of Zimmerman. (Forget that with the difference in weight, he is not likely to stay there very long.) So where is Zimmerman’s gun? Is it holstered? If so, how does he get it out while underneath? if he is carrying it when the confrontation begins, then who is threatening whom?
Where was Martin shot? In the head, the chest, the abdomen? Knowing this would help a lot to determine how believable is this anonymous (how convenient!) witness. Shouldn’t there be an ME report? or were the Sanford police so sloppy that that was botched (or suppressed) too?
I have been in Florida several times, and even before this I found the place unbearable. There is a stench of moral corruption that makes me sick to think about. If you want a sense of what I mean, read some of Carl Hiassen’s novels. he is the longtime Miami Herald columnist who said (on “60 minutes”) that if you tilted a map of the US to the SE, all the sludge would run down into Florida. he should know.
Rick Taylor
@Ella in New Mexico:
I’m really uncomfortable with people impugning this guys motives or calling him a “witness” in quotes. I saw a recording of him where he was interviewed shortly after Martin was killed. He didn’t say much, just described what he’d seen. He didn’t know any of the people involved, describing Zimmerman as a guy in a red sweater who was on his back being beaten by another party. He told them to stop and went to call 911 when he heard the shot and looked out his window to see the one who’d been hitting Zimmerman had been shot. And of course he was only aware of a little piece of what had happened, not knowing that Zimmerman had pursued Martin. It wasn’t his fault the the police concluded after questioning him that there was no need to do any kind of investigation to see if there was more to the story.
Rick Taylor
These are all excellent questions that should have been and should be brought before a jury.
Given that people here are already suggesting he’s a liar and an accomplice to covering up a murder based on nothing at all, I don’t blame this guy one bit for wanting remain anonymous.
jnc
jprfrog – I’m not sure if it helps, but every report I’ve heard said that Matin was shot once in chest.
Gian
The absolute lack of an arrest, the recording of an armed man following the child. (to quibble, he wasn’t explicity directed not to follow his victim, he was told something much more akin to “you don’t have to do that”)
I can take an educated guess that Zimmerman probably doesn’t like Black people. It’s very likely the case (in his under the breath enhanced recording he may utter racial slur)
But really, the facts that we seem to have that are not in disute would clearly indicate the local police agency behaved in a matter that can only be described as racist.
They had the victim of a shooting, as a juvenile, a juvenile who had a cell phone, and they did not 1) use the phone to notify the family – nope the family waited three days to find out that their child was dead. Does anyone doubt that they were actively looking for a good portion of that time? WHo would they have contacted – the local cops? the local hospitals? kid goes to store and vanishes. THe reason they didn’t bother finding family was that to the local cops it was investigation over, case closed when they saw the color of the deceased.
2) Zimmerman’s actions in no rational way meet the letter of “stand your ground” unless stand is redefined as pursue and attack
3) when the story finally made news the local cops started to try and blame stand your ground when you’d have to have grown up speaking Klingon and using a Klingon to Sanscrit, and a Sanscrit to English dictionary to get the definition that screwed up.
The local PD let their racism out for the world to see and they’re trying to hide behind stand your ground. If there wasn’t stand your ground they’d still try and make some story up to cover the dereliction of duty.
Yes, the florida stand your ground law is poorly written and stupid, but it doesn’t fit the facts of this case as the cops knew them on the night it happened. (from what I can tell they didn’t even take Zimmerman down to the station and video tape an interview)
the kill a black guy, or a civil rights worker trying to help black people and have the local cops in the south turn a blind eye has a very long and storied history. It’s why Ronald famously kicked off a campaign in Philidelphia MS, home to a famous civil rights era murder/act of terrorism.
What I want to know is how many more “justified” homicides of African Americans the local PD wrote off without doing an investigation. Having the Feds come in and work up these cases is one of the reasons that “state’s rights” was and is a right wing racist rallying cry.
Mnemosyne
@jnc:
Uh, Tom called the guy a liar because the guy said that violent crime dropped in Florida because of the law. You can’t hand-wave that part away and decide that it’s not important in determining whether or not the guy is a liar.
Xenos
@Brachiator:
The way the law works: if there is a fight between two people, the guy carrying a gun is immunized from prosecution, but not the guy defending himself with his fists. This is purely for the benefit of gun nuts, the NRA, and the gun manufacturers and retailers.
Jmcc
@mnemosyne
You might want to try re-reading toms post. He spent a couple of paragraphs talking about the crime rate. You know, the one that did drop just like the politician said.
One can argue about whether or not that was because of the stand your ground law. Id even say it probably wasn’t. But that is not a matter of fact. That is a conclusion.
See the difference, there?
Plantsmantx
@handy:
He did come forward before. He was quoted in the Orlando Sentinel last month. Still- it doesn’t change anything.
anon
I agree with you, but seriously … you should learn to spell “led” … it’s a 3-letter word … not that hard …
Sheik Yerbouti
Trayvon Martin is dead, and one person is responsible for all of the series of actions that led to his death. That person is George Zimmerman.
16-year-old American, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki is dead, and one person is responsible for all of the series of actions that led to his death. That person is Barack Obama.
Iforgot
@David Koch:
He wasn’t “simply punching” him. He was banging his head on the pavement.