Here’s the American Prospect’s take on the question of whether voters are ignorant and stupid, or just ignorant. The piece is a response to an argument between Politico’s media critic and John King of CNN about whether King was suggesting that the voting public is stupid. Setting aside the fact that those two arguing about this topic is like RJ Reynolds calling out Philip Morris for saying that people are getting lung cancer, the Prospect story is worth a read because it rounds up some actual research on the topic.
Dumb and Dumber
by @mistermix.bsky.social| 53 Comments
This post is in: Our Failed Media Experiment
the fugitive uterus
anyone who watched Rachel Maddow’s segment last night on basically the same issue, with regard to Obamacare, would know the answer to that question. and i would laugh if it weren’t so tragic
butler
When I was taking my exams for my MA in Political Science, this was one of the actual long essay questions. After a century of inquiry on the subject, there are two basic schools of thought in the discipline: 1) that citizens are definitely ignorant or 2) citizens are mostly ignorant but able to use enough information shortcuts to be functionally informed enough to operate in a democracy.
These are both at an average level, so within the group there will be some very informed people, some kind of informed people, and a lot of uniformed people.
Neither choice offers a lot of encouragement to the democratic optimist.
Comrade Javamanphil
Jonah Goldberg is paid to write about his opinions. That’s all the proof I need that we are both a deeply stupid and ignorant nation.
merp
I wish discussions on this topic acknowledged more often that it’s perfectly rational to remain ignorant about public affairs for a large number of people.
El Cid
One problem is that tremendous numbers of people (a) have never been ‘taught’ (formally or informally) how to think logically when it comes to larger scale issues, I mean that quite literally, what is and is not a sensible argument, and (b) have been taught methods of argumentation which are contrary to that of rationality and empiricism.
IOW, it doesn’t matter how logical the argument; if people refuse to accept the rules of logical argument, you’re fucked if that’s your way of trying to impart understanding.
butler
@merp: True. That’s a big part of the “functionally ignorant” line of thought.
El Cid
@merp: I would be able to pursue many more directly profitable and entertaining options for myself did I not somehow remain convinced that knowing, understanding, and interacting with the larger political world were in my general, ideological, and extended human family interest, such as wasting my time here.
Comrade Javamanphil
@El Cid: This is quite true and in fact it is much worse than you state because many people are taught to explicitly reject logical argument in favor of “common sense.” I note this tactic is used most often by charlatans, grifters and genuinely stupid people. Also, too.
ETA: Actually, I suppose I am just restating your point b. But that only enhances my argument or something.
the Conster (f/k/a Cat Lady)
Watching the chuckleheads on Morning Ho last week discussing the polls showing the number of people who don’t know anything about what the ACA does or would do for them made me almost throw something at them, because it’s all Obama’s fault. Too bad no one on that panel has a daily highly visible national media platform to discuss such things.
Ron
@the fugitive uterus: While for the most part I agree with you, the one piece she did not address was public opinion about the individual mandate. Now one can argue that people who want the other parts need to put up with the mandate, but AFAIK the mandate is what is most unpopular. (the NY Times-CBS poll has it at 45 approve-51 disapprove for that part)
Suffern ACE
@the Conster (f/k/a Cat Lady): Yep. Our stupidity is actually a verdict on THEM. Normally, I’d say that was blame shifting. But since THEY don’t think informing the public is very important, but prefer to gambol about lazily looking for entertaining things, it makes sense that we end up in this state.
danielx
For those who don’t believe voters are ignorant and/or stupid, there are any number of examples proving otherwise. Here are just a couple:
Louie Gohmert
Michelle Bachmann
Note also the difference between ignorance and stupidity – ignorance is curable, hence willful if one is not interested in learning. (cough*George W. Bush*cough) True stupidity – the inability to learn, as opposed to unwillingness to learn – is as much genetic as anything else. If one comes from a long line of dolts, one is unlikely to be a Nobel prize candidate. This is the main reason I don’t discuss politics with my friends who are Republicans – deliberate rejection of objective reality tends to make me irritable, especially when it’s coming from people I know to be smart folks.
Note: in a lot of cases it’s due to that famous concept of Upton Sinclair’s – “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” I can appreciate the lack of understanding, but not excuse it.
the Conster (f/k/a Cat Lady)
@danielx:
Stupidity is a condition, ignorance is a commitment.
danielx
@the Conster (f/k/a Cat Lady):
Much more succinct, I like it. Other variations:
One volunteers to remain ignorant.
Ignorance is a choice.
Mark B
Well, there are different types of ignorance. There’s the kind where someone is just uninformed, and can be corrected by giving them correct information. And there’s the type where someone is truly committed to believing incorrect facts and emotionally invested in them. The second type is rampant among today’s right wingers*, and it’s going to take more than just disseminating the correct facts to fight it. In fact, I don’t know actually how you’re supposed to counter what I used to call ‘invincible ignorance.’ I suppose a large comet might take care of it.
*Climate change denialism is one of the clearest examples of this.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mark B:
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Yes, it’s probably going to take repeated application of a clue by four.
Schlemizel
Good one!
And, sadly, far and away too many of our fellow Americans are deeply committed to remaining ignorant. Shows that try to examine, that engage in reasoned debate and attempt to enlighten are ignored and canceled. (how many of even us BJers watch the excellent Bill Moyers discussions on PBS?). But put on a screamer – BillyO, Tweety, you pick ’em and ratings are good enough. Folks just love a freak show – thinking is hard work.
Too much heat not enough light & its what “the people” demand
priscianusjr
@<a h@El Cid: ref=”#comment-3143490″>El Cid:
priscianusjr
@Mark B:
Cap'n Magic
Yes, people really are stupid. The saving grace is that not everybody is stupid at the same time.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
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Oh, I disagree, American Prospect. I disagree most vehemently.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
as churchill once said, americans will always do the right thing, once they have exausted all other options.
as senator platorski of athens said, the dumber argument always wins.
these conditions, as they round us into the debate are not a reflection of the times.
people are ignorant, not stupid, give them some meat, like an oj trial, or a missing white girl with cheerleading pics and vid of her at pole dancing class, and they will parse every last nanogram of dna, even if they don’t believe in evolution.
its really about selling them on understanding elections, politics, policy, how motivated segments can control the agenda on major issues, the longer view, instead of the stupid argument. tell them there is really nothing wrong with the politicians that isn’t what is wrong with the voters like themselves.
its not that they can’t understand it, they think they are smarter and better people because they don’t
if you can change that, all i ask is the megamillions numbers before tomorrow night.
the fugitive uterus
@Ron: you’d think the general public could put 2 and 2 together, however, instead of squawking about liberty – and you’d think they’d figure out that when that steel beam falls on their head and they have to go the ER without insurance, somebody is paying for it. and the supreme irony is that they scream about taxes going to help “irresponsible” and “lazy” people. it is highly irresponsible to assume you will never need health insurance. unless you are prepared to cut that tumor out with your pocket knife . also, apparently, they are too stupid to understand how insurance works at all.
so, as far as i am concerned, these people are infringing on my “liberty” to have access to affordable health care; where’s my gun?
Satanicpanic
Smart people are just better at convincing themselves to believe stupid shit. Dumb people don’t have to convince themselves of anything because they don’t see any logical contradiction. Either way, the result is pretty much the same.
catclub
and yet, there is the survey on who to blame for the bad economy and STILL, three plus years later, they blame Bush.
Is this just ignorance that favors Obama, or is it a realization that the policies Obama has put in place did not actually make things worse.
Given that 27% DO blame Obama, it gives me hope.
Some Loser
@catclub:
Ignorance favor Obama, but Bush did that to himself. The public personalize the GOP’s bad policy as Bush Jr. himself.
kindness
I don’t know about ‘most’ but far too many Americans believe what they want to believe no matter what the data is. If you want to call these folk dumb or stupid…well it may fit. But be aware it affects those on our side of the aisle too.
PTirebiter
as churchill once said ; I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.
Why anyone might give an anemic beer fart about Churchill’s opinion of the American people is beyond me. I lean toward the Irish take on England’s single flaw; its above sea level.
Some Loser
@PTirebiter:
People like to quote him because he can be witty sometimes, and the fact that he’s English.
A lot of Americans like that specific quote because it helps them vent. I mean: “Liberals know all the right answers, but America doesn’t enact them, so America is dumb.” I guess we all feel like that sometimes. Though, I prefer to say that we aren’t progressing fast enough for my like.
chrome agnomen
this quote (twain?) has been posted before. “take the average intelligence; half the people are below that.” like most things, stupid and ignorant have subjective definitions. mine is that stupidity is willful ignorance. ‘i don’t know, but i’ll be damned if i’m going to make myself informed. “i’ll just go with my gut.”
rppa
@catclub:
Uh, the bad economy is a result of a deep hole created in 2008 that we’re slowly and steadily climbing out of.
You’re saying that reasonable people, after sufficient time, should start thinking 2008 was during Obama’s administration.
That is not a reasonable position in my book.
liberal
@priscianusjr:
I could be mistaken, but I thought there was a pretty strong body of evidence that conservatives on average have lower IQs than liberals.
Not that it’s relevant; you can be very bright and very wrong.
jesus h. tapdancing christ
Tax cuts and unnecessary wars pay for themselves!!!
Nothing ignorant or stupid about that.
Some Loser
@liberal:
There was a study that concluded dumb people are more intolerant than smart people.
PTirebiter
Let those among us who have never fallen in love cast the first scone.
Conversations like these always leave me a little uneasy. I find the research consistently fascinating but I think a large dose of humility is suggested before drawing any conclusions that might be considered actionable. Over the years we’ve done some horrid things based on new found insights into human behavior. From eugenics to Alan Greenspan’s late life discovery that even wealthy, well educated adults couldn’t be counted on to behave in a rational manner or to act in their own long term self interest. If you factor in the mundane and day to day, maybe people acting like people is as much a feature as it is a bug. It’s a thought that started needling me some time after my first 15 or so years working at large ad agencies.
SenyorDave
@Marcellus Shale, Public Dick: as senator platorski of athens said, the dumber argument always wins.
as Senator Blutarski said, Seven years of college down the fucking drain.
Some Loser
Let them vent, PTirebiter. Even liberals want to feel superior once in a while.
Brachiator
@El Cid: El Cid Says:
Of course, clear thinking and “logical argumentation” are not quite the same thing, although both are important. But I take your point that this isn’t much taught. But even here, a lot of people eagerly throw off rational analysis and look for reinforcement and reassurance.
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This morning a radio talk show host talked about how liberal law professor Erwin Chermerinsky had been on a show, discussing the recent Supreme Court arguments about health care. Chermerinsky was not pushing his own view of how the Court should rule, but simply explaing court procedure and how responsibility for writing the majority and dissenting opinion is handled.
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Still the station got hundreds of angry emails saying that a “communist” should never be allowed on the radio station. This is, of course, also the station that carries Limbaugh.
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Anyway, for fun here is a handy reference of rhetological fallacies. There is also a fun link showing fallacies in action:
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Villago Delenda Est
Back in the 60’s, some PoliSci students did a little experiment. They took the Bill of Rights and tried to get people to sign it as a ballot initiative. They got a lot of “gosh, that’s commie stuff” responses from the yokels.
I think the “stupidity” of the voters has more to do with the crass cretinism of our vaunted Media Elites than anything else.
Chris
@priscianusjr:
This.
I also believe that the more educated they are, the dumber they get. Because the more educated they are, the more likely they are to invest hours and hours watching, reading, listening to and just thinking about wingnut horseshit and coming up with their own convoluted thoughts about things.
It’s what someone here once called “high-misinformation” as opposed to “low-information” voters. Or as Satanpanic put it, smart people are just better at convincing themselves to do stupid shit.
Chris
@Some Loser:
This. Conservatives have been very good at convincing themselves that “Bush was a liberal” to get over that embarrassment, but it’s a little harder to make the rest of us forget the eight years of adoring, unquestioning love he got as a Champion of Conservatism.
@Some Loser:
And because it has a grain of truth to it. Yes, America abolished slavery and yes, America created a welfare state (years, even decades after various European countries had already gotten there). But in both cases our society had to be brought to the brink of total collapse before we finally did it.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Sinclair Lewis once said of the Daughters of the American Revolution that it’s composed of women who “spend one half of their waking hours boasting of being descended from the seditious American colonists of 1776, and the other and more ardent half in attacking all contemporaries who believe in precisely the principles for which those ancestors struggled.” If only it was just the DAR…
PTirebiter
@Some Loser: That sounds about right to me but I still find the whole anglophile thing curious. I wonder about how it breaks down across the population? My family got here as indentured servants in 1799. I have no idea what their views might have been, but by the time I came along we had no special interest one way or the other when it came to England. No big deal, just a minor curiosity on my part.
PTirebiter
@Some Loser: Fair enough. It’s not like I don’t spend 75% of my day pitying those who can’t appreciate the intrinsic and transcending beauty of my liberal beliefs.
Then the dog drags out a ball and shames. me into tossing the toss.
catclub
@rppa: I realize i did not make myself clear. The whole thread is on: how stupid are people? Or are they stupid AND evil.
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I observed that at a point in his term when EVERYTHING is typically blamed on the present president, that is not happening. I think it is that people are smarter than they are given credit for (at least) in this case.
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Hope that helps.
Schlemizel
@priscianusjr:
Lard knows there are lefties that when I hear them all I can think is “Get off my side moron!” but, by-and-large, I hear far fewer truly stupid arguments from today’s left than from today’s right. In a half century of paying attention that has not always been the case but today I think 27% is about the right number – Stupid/at-least-rational arguments on the right 73%/27% on the left 27%/73%.
If the people are not stupid their arguments sure as hell are.
Brachiator
Driving the point home
Conservatives are willfully ignorant.
We are entering an intellectual Dark Ages, and conservatives are happily taking the plunge. They will soon make the Taliban look like enlightened Renaissance princes.
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My worst case scenario is that the Supreme Court demolishes the health act, and the resultant political crisis propels Romney to victory. And then, get ready for the real Hunger Games.
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Captain C
@chrome agnomen:
As Rob Gordon (John Cusak’s character in High Fidelity) said, “I’ve been listening to my gut since I was 14 years old, and frankly speaking, I’ve come to the conclusion that my guts have shit for brains.”
ornery_curmudgeon
Helping the corrupt establishment by demonizing Ralph Nader … while taking on the Progressive label … and overlooking VP candidate Joe Lieberman …
AND continuing that asininity until it became a reflexive act to make circular firing squads against those who share political goals …
WHILE never grasping that the behavior and results we get from Democratic leadership is EXACTLY what Nader was trying to communicate …
Well, it was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen in politics to this day. The Righties are corrupted, but something very wrong exists on “our side” too.
Some Loser
@Schlemizel:
I once met a brilliant engineer-guy-person who I discussed evolution with a bit. It was odd to see a normally bright, rational person turn into a raving idiot over the subject. He didn’t even understand or ignored even the most basic elements of the science. Of course, he was a conservative. Evolution was definitely something he could understand. It was pure willful ignorance.
I think when we see right-wing people, or other people we find stupid, it is not they lack intelligence. It is willful ignorance, intentional obtuseness. They take certain things as a personal affront like my engineer acquaintance. I think they just feel like you are attacking their identity. Modern day Republicanism is not about politics anymore it is about identity politics, and conservatives will twist themselves into a pretzel rationalizing the things the GOP does (or excommunicate certain members). I don’t know if they are self-aware enough to feel any shame over this.
Of course, that is just my take. I am not a sociologist or psychologist or anything.
Some Loser
@Some Loser:
I should say that I don’t think this identity politics thing is new or that it is just restricted to the right. Hell, I don’t think of it as intrinsically bad. They just take it to a dangerous level.
John S.
@Some Loser:
People like brands. They fulfill their needs on a human level, and the more successful the brand the better it does at fulfillment. The GOP does a much better job of that than the Democrats.
If the Dems were in the position the GOP currently is, they would have ceased to exist as a national party already. The GOP is selling snake oil, but they are much better at connecting with the ‘right’ customer, despite the tougher sell.
El Cid
The stupidity and ignorance of voters, though, can’t be much of a political excuse, as though they vary up and down somewhat, mostly they’re a constant.
People didn’t suddenly become super-informed and ultra-wise when great policies were passed or grand leaders elected, and they didn’t suddenly become mouth-breathers and mind-wiped when they elected TeaBirchers in 2010.
Given that this stupidity and ignorance and anti-rationalism and biographical determinism (‘I don’t care about arguments or policies, I just like a guy like X’) is ongoing and has always been around (and even when less, not much less), I understand that political movements have to work around them.
Another way of saying that is to accept that humans, for better and worse, act like humans do, and just do what you can to work with them (us) as they (we) are, and maybe change the general circumstances when possible to favor better circumstances.
Unions and commies took the same sort of reactionary and divisive and anti-rational poor right wingers and often made movements out of them, sometimes with some ill consequences. But it wasn’t an excuse for them to admit how ‘they’ were, but it was something they had to deal with.
But on a personal level, I do get sick and tired of feeling a personal responsibility to have to do more and be more reasonable than my fellow citizens, who with equal time and resources find no problem excusing political laziness and irrationality. It gets fucking old.
BruinKid
And then there’s the Ron Paul fans, who seem to be high-information voters, and yet still so incredibly ignorant/stupid on what the actual consequences of true libertarianism would do to their own lives.