Is this really the best defense that can be afforded George Zimmerman:
In trying to portray his client in as sympathetic terms as possible, Zimmerman’s new attorney Mark O’Mara said this evening that Zimmerman is “troubled by everything that has happened.” O’Mara added, “Truly, it must be frightening to not be able to go into a 7/11 or into a store and literally to be in fact a prisoner wherever he was.”
This is allegedly George Zimmerman’s defense attorney making the case. Apparently he is unaware that Trayvon Martin was killed by his client for… going to 7/11.
Is this really the best the legal community can do in a high profile case? Is everyone in this country just a total moran?
AA+ Bonds
Trying to draw parallels between the vic and the killer is a fairly old defense trick
AA+ Bonds
Excuse me, “suspect” ;)
Elizabelle
It is my hope that Mr. Zimmerman is literally a prisoner for many, many years.
Starting with no bail before trial.
Zimmerman can breathe, he can feel the sunshine, he can speak and act, he can love, he has a future.
There your parallel ends.
Elizabelle
@AA+ Bonds:
One of the few cases where no one has to say “alleged killer”, actually. That’s a matter of record.
FlipYrWhig
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.
John Milton, speaking of poor, poor George Zimmerman’s mindset.
Alison
FFS, talk about tiny violin time.
Dude fucking killed a kid. I couldn’t give two fucks that he can’t go buy a Slurpee in peace.
“Literally” a prisoner. NO HE’S NOT AND THAT’S THE FUCKING PROBLEM.
Rawr.
PeakVT
Is this really the best the legal community can do in a high profile case?
No, but Zimmerman isn’t exactly flush, is he? Until the wingnutz fill up his defense fund or the NRA pitches in he’s probably not going to have top-notch representation.
middlewest
Ummm… no. The best walked away.
Buffalo Rude
No doubt, John. My personal feelings aside, Zimmerman needs a good lawyer post haste.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Zimmerman isn’t exactly in Klaus von Bulow or OJ Simpson territory when it comes to ability to hire attorneys.
AA+ Bonds
@Elizabelle:
I’m just being an ass
AA+ Bonds
It’s an attempt to draw sympathy from those already prone to be sympathetic to Zimmerman, the idea being, where do people get off being pissed that Martin was shot walking home from a 7/11, Zimmerman can’t go to his local 7/11 without some dangerous black person shooting him
It’s not a logical appeal but it wouldn’t be since the case is being tried in the press right now to fuck up the jury pool
They are going to try to sink in some “look over here at the New Black Panthers or whoever” shit for as long as they can
Luthe
Only a moran would represent the guy. Hence the sterling quality of his legal counsel.
trollhattan
“Incompetent defense attorney” can be a decent rationale for an appeal. Jess sayin’.
Has anybody seen Zimmerman and Karl Pilkington in the same room at the same time? Inquiring minds….
Elizabelle
O’Mara’s a “legal analyst” for a local TV station. Wonder if that’s how Zimmerman chose him.
I’m glad that, so far, we don’t have some pro-NRA defense counsel aching for a chance to defend Stand Your Ground. By any means necessary.
Calouste
One of the most prominent representatives of the legal profession in the comment section of this blog is burnspbesq.
I rest my case.
BigSouthern
Jesus, bad enough this stupid fuck has his Shootout at the Ofay Corral and kills some innocent kid, now I have to hear about how he can’t go to 7-11 and “he’s a prisoner in the free world!”
Not to get too maudlin, but you know who else can’t go to 7-11 anymore? Trayvon Martin.
And I’d like to say thank you to you John Cole, and everyone else here who continues to refer to Trayvon as a kid. Everywhere else he’s “a young adult” or “Mr. Martin,” because it’s hard enough to defend a killer, but defending a child killer on top of it is clocking overtime.
kdaug
You do not want to field-test this question.
Trust me.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
Well, to be fair, the guy doesn’t have a whole lot to work with, since “not guilty by reason of being a sorry fuck-up” isn’t a valid defense in most states, Florida among them.
Lit3Bolt
@kdaug:
Yeah, seriously. You already have moral midgets like Doug Mataconis, Rich Lowry, Doughy Goldberg, et al. piously shrieking about how we shouldn’t rush to judgement and let the justice system do its job…for a child-killing psychopath who rushed to judgement and didn’t let the justice system do its job. Because honestly, as they see it, the real moral outrage here is Al Sharpton.
Fuck this country. Let it burn.
Redshift
@middlewest:
God, I hope they’re not the best. Those guys were peddling some pretty wacky stuff before they quit.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@BigSouthern:
The most fucked up thing being that he should have been in jail- or under an actual legal house arrest, anyway- since the end of February.
Redshift
@Lit3Bolt: And more the the point, if everyone had just shut up and “let the justice system do its job,” this guy would have walked away scott free.
Martin
Fucking Mutually Assured Destruction, how does it work?!
You’d think these SYG proponents had never seen a spaghetti western.
Redshift
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
If it was, from what I hear, they could just close all the jails and fire all the police. Not that it means they won’t try it…
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@Redshift:
You’re in Fairfax County? I am, too. I keep asking from time to time when we down here in Washington are going to get our own Washington and Environs Balloon Juice Fun-Time Gathering. They get them in New York and they get them in Seattle, but we’re left here with nothing. I can’t organize something like this, since I’m severly ADD and can’t organize my way out of a wet paper bag, but maybe somebody else could get something together.
Spaghetti Lee
Yeah, bet he feels real bad. Wonder how Trayvon’s parents feel.
asiangrrlMN
I read about how torn up Zimmerman is and how this is so hard on him – I hope to fuck he is and that it is. He shot and killed an unarmed child. If that doesn’t tear him up inside, then he’s a psychopath/sociopath. Unfortunately, it seems as if most of his emotional distress is for himself and how fucked his life is. Pardon me if I don’t shed a single, solitary tear for him.
P.S. I woke up to the news that he’d been charged and taken into custody. That was a good way to start my day.
Spaghetti Lee
I mean, it’s the lawyer’s job to defend him, so I’m not gonna assume he’s a bad lawyer. I’d like to see the lawyer that can make this guy look good. Your options would seem to be “Yeah, my client’s a total klansman, but that ain’t illegal.” or “He didn’t mean to-he was under emotional stress!
AA+ Bonds
@BigSouthern:
That’s the point. Put your mind into the frame of someone who might end up pulling jury duty if there’s no bargain reached, someone who might support Zimmerman otherwise but isn’t sure about this one. The sort of person who would be completely behind Zimmerman if there had ever been any claim, however farfetched, of Trayvon Martin producing a weapon.
Then introduce the half-idea that Zimmerman’s life has been threatened in ways that are somehow parallel to what happened to Trayvon Martin. Infer the dog-whistling image of menacing revenge-obsessed black assassin hordes that this statement is supposed to imply to such a listener.
“And before a fair trial! Don’t people have a right to a fair trial in this country before they get strung up by a gang of . . .” you see where this is supposed to go for the defense team
Walker Percy’s characters talk about how Southerners use the tone of the word ‘people’ to denote race, and I invite you to imagine what the tone might mean in the bit right above this one
JWL
Could be that’s what passes for in-your-face humor among white-is-right Floridians.
AA+ Bonds
@JWL:
Exactly this, and there are a LOT of white-is-right Floridians
Michael G
Why aren’t the republican overlords paying for Zimmerman’s defense? Because they don’t really give a shit if Zimmerman goes to prison. They want the talking point.
And this one is great for their base: Obama is railroading this dude because the victim is black and Obama hates all non-blacks. Also, Obama wants to take all of your guns away. If Zimmerman goes to prison, they’ll make him a martyr forever.
AA+ Bonds
@Michael G:
Don’t forget that Obama’s statement on the case stirred up those black radical revenge assassination squads waiting behind the dumpster at 7/11
I guarantee you that line is not going away, because it was already here
MikeJ
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.): You want for I should put up a notice on the web site we used for the Seattle meetup? You could point DC area people to it and argue about time and place and why I’m talking like a Bowery Boy.
Politically Lost
Speaking as a lawyer that does NOT practice criminal law…
I have know idea why any attorney for Zimmerman would be speaking to the press about anything other than to confirm the chargers against the client. That’s it. That’s what I was taught in my first semester of school and it was repeatedly hammered into my head from those days on. The only time you should be updating the press is after a hearing where actual evidence has been introduced.
Yes. The attorney is a mooron.
lovable liberal
“He came at me with a can of Arizona Iced Tea, and I thought it was a gun.”
drunken hausfrau
OK, we are ex-pats… being relocated back to the USA later this year… and I am dreading it! Cole’s question, “is everyone in this country a total moran?” , I fear the answer is YES. Or getting there… THE STUPID is consuming the country faster than the DFHs can fight it back with a stick.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@MikeJ:
Cool. That would be great.
MikeJ
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.): Done.
http://meetjuicers.weebly.com/
AA+ Bonds
@Politically Lost:
Things are different when you smell the sweat-drenched leather of a seat in front of a camera
I’m sure everyone involved on the professional legal side is plotting out chapters of their book as they lie in bed at night
If they want that book to sell well they have to get out there and be seen and heard
If there’s any chance for a plea bargain they have to get out there quick
And if there’s no book deal, there’s precious precious big new clients to land
This is IMO the real motivation for trying a case in the press
AA+ Bonds
Not to mention this may be their last chance to talk about ooky spooky vigilante justice against Zimmerman without it looking too maudlin or conspiracy-theory, unless someone makes an attempt on him in jail or while moving him or in the courtroom or something
Much harder to portray your client as a potential murder victim himself once he’s been in custody for a while, right
amk
I vote burnsey to represent this poor liddle thing.
Randy P
@Elizabelle:
IANAL but isn’t there something called an amicus brief where they get a chance to do exactly that? Or is that only in certain courts?
One way or another I’m certain there will be an NRA lawyer in there. They will pay to put one on his defense team if nothing else.
And yes, I’m sure Zimmerman picked this guy off the teevee. Or this guy cold-called him.
Jason
@Politically Lost: I have know idea why any attorney for Zimmerman would be speaking to the press about anything other than to confirm the chargers against the client.
As I understand it, that’s old school. New school says media management is part of the game. The prosecution will leak information to the press and spin things in order to put pressure on the client and influence the jury pool, you’ve got to be prepared to do the same.
S-Cargo
I’ve taken a Florida concealed carry license class, and from the looks of it, Zimmerman did exactly what they tell you not to do: don’t approach a suspicious person, don’t follow them, don’t act like you’re a cop, don’t initiate contact.
Odie Hugh Manatee
As the saying goes, you don’t point a loaded gun at someone unless you are prepared to use it and deal with the consequences of that action. Same thing with packing heat for ‘neighborhood patrol’ (or any other stupid reason for packing heat publicly); you don’t pack the heat unless you are prepared to use it and deal with the consequences. It sounds like Zimmerman didn’t think of the post-shooting consequences, he only thought that by killing an ‘intruder’ that he would come out the ‘winner’, the macho man who ‘saved the neighborhood’ from evil scum.
His poor decisions resulted in the death of an innocent kid. I am the father of a seventeen year old son and this sends shudders of fear up my spine. I couldn’t imagine losing my son, especially in the way that Trayvon’s parents lost him. I don’t think I could deal with it nearly as gracefully as Trayvon’s father seems to be. My heart goes out to him and Trayvon’s mother and I hope they get the justice that their son deserves.
Zimmerman is the reason Trayvon is dead, he gets no sympathy from me.
None.
swordofdoom
@trollhattan: trollhattan Says:
“Incompetent defense attorney” can be a decent rationale for an appeal. Jess sayin’.
Has anybody seen Zimmerman and Karl Pilkington in the same room at the same time? Inquiring minds….
I believe that only applies when the defendant is stuck with court-appointed counsel, and even then, it’s extremely difficult for the defendant to prevail. (I know somebody who’s basically serving a life sentence based pretty much exclusively on the testimony of his batshit crazy ex-wife, who wasn’t cross-examined. And yes, his habeas corpus petition on these grounds was rejected in federal court.)
@Randy P: IANAL but isn’t there something called an amicus brief where they get a chance to do exactly that? Or is that only in certain courts?
Amicus briefs only come into play on appeal.
Southern Beale
They rightwards are still claiming that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. Evidence continues to show that this is 100% false. But that’s all they have.
Quincy
@Elizabelle: I assume they’re staying away because this is not the set off facts they want to defend stand your ground on. Despite their protests, conservatives have to prefer this case be about race rather than the stupidity of Fla gun laws.
kay
I read the whole story of one of the other SYG cases in FL, where a man shot another man who arrived at the shooters door mistakenly. The victim there was drunk and thought he was at his own residence, so was banging on the door. The resident shot him, and the victim is now permanently disabled.
The shooter there started crying when he realized what he had done.
He was genuinely remorseful. Couldn’t stop crying.
Anyway, if this is a tactic by the lawyer to elicit sympathy for his client, I think “remorse over tragedy” is probably smarter than ” my client can’t go to the 7-11″.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jason: Yep. Looks to me like he is trying to set up an “everyone is a victim here” mindset among potential jurors. If he can make Zimmerman look sympathetic to even one or two jurors, it really improves his chances.
El Cid
Look, we all shoot an innocent kid from time to time. It doesn’t mean we have to be all oppressed about it.
Omnes Omnibus
@El Cid: This.
BruceFromOhio
Closer, but still not quite fixt, I’m afraid.
What’s truly frightening is this murderer was walking around free, giving interviews, until law enforcement rediscovered its purpose and charged the asshole.
West of the Cascades
@Randy P:
Interested parties can file amicus briefs even in trial court, although it isn’t common.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
the defense is going to use the random false equivalency generator to brand martin and zimmerman as co-victims.
wait until they start poisoning the potential jury pool with tales of how rough zimmerman will have it in prison.
kay
@BruceFromOhio:
I don’t think SYG comports with most peoples’ sense of proportionate force.
I represent kids a lot and none of them know OH law on what they can and cannot do in self-defense, but they lay out the facts, always, in a proportionate force way, ie, he hit me so I hit him back, and what did he expect? I would do NOTHING? They often mention that they are the same SIZE or the same AGE as the victim.
I don’t think SYG comports with peoples’ gut sense of fairness. The cases are bizzare. Bang on my door at 3 AM and I will SHOOT you.
muddy
@trollhattan:
That’s mean to Karl, who seems to be kind hearted and frequently (bizarrely) insightful.
Rafer Janders
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Specifically, his poor decision to point a loaded handgun at the chest of said kid and then deliberately pull the trigger, knowing that by doing so he was firing a bullet directly into the kid’s chest which would at best gravely wound him and at worst kill him.
CraigoMc
@West of the Cascades: There’s nothing in Florida’s rules of court procedure to indicate that an amicus brief can be filed in criminal trials.
Clime Acts
You’ve sunk to a new trolling your own blog low, John.
Nutella
@Randy P:
I thought Zimmerman’s daddy was a judge? You’d think he’d be giving him better advice about defense attorneys.
The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
I was always told that if you committed a felony and someone died as a result, regardless of any intention on your part, that was automatically Murder One. Have the Republicans changed that since the coup d’état of November 1980?
flukebucket
Trayvon had a right to attack Zimmerman. Trayvon had a right to shoot and kill Zimmerman. He was being stalked by a stranger with a gun. Trayvon did what any other person would have done in that circumstance. There is no defense for Zimmerman. There is no excuse for what he did.
One defense I read from a right wing commenter last night was that nobody has the right not to be stalked or followed. These guys are grasping at straws that do not even exist.
As much as I hope he spends the rest of his life in prison the Sanford police department needs to also be completely fumigated.
They took the position that Judge Zimmerman’s son has been playing cops and robbers again and now we have a dead ni$$er that we have to take care of as soon as possible.
What a disgrace. And then the police chief has the audacity to say that he is just a poor white chief of police that nobody is going to believe no matter what he says. He said that this case was investigated the same as any other without ever stopping to think that that might be what the problem was.
I wonder why the NRA has not rushed to help Zimmerman with the costs of defense.
Clime Acts
Cole, I just realized your authoritative summary of the Trayvon Martin shooting offered in this post is a…Wikipedia entry.
OMG.
Nutella
@Nutella:
Oh, jeeze. Yahoo News says:
A big fan of legal circuses apparently.
ETA: And not too swift if he can only drum up sympathy for his shooter client by talking about how sad he is that his OWN life is ruined, without a word about ending the life of a kid walking home from 7-11.
lethargytartare
@amk:
how do we know he isn’t already?
CraigoMc
@kay: People seem to be confused about what your SYG laws actually do. “Reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm” is not a new standard that nutty FL legislators cooked up – it’s been the standard for self-defense in the English and American common law for centuries. If you reasonably fear force, you can use force. If you reasonably fear deadly force, you can use deadly force.
What stand your ground does is remove the duty to retreat that existed when you were outside your home, and it was possible and safe to do so. (This used to be called “necessity” in self-defense law.)
What Florida does in addition to this, which is far more dangerous and receives far less attention, is create a presumption of reasonable fear, both before and at trial. Criminal law has always put the burden of proving an affirmative defense on the defendant – if the state can prove you did it, you have to prove that your actions were justified or excusable. (Technically, the “burden of production.”) In Florida, if you commit a homicide and claim self-defense, the state has to prove that you didn’t have a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm. That’s so fucked up and backwards that I seriously wonder whether the FL legislators (who drafted this law quite poorly, overall) had any idea that they were doing it.
Jnc
So he was killed for going to a 7-11?
I thought he was killed for carrying skittles… Or was it because he was black?
feebog
@ Nutella:
And therein lies the tale methinks. It has already been widely reported that the Lead Detective in the case thought there was enough evidence to arrest and charge Zimmerman. He was overruled by the District Attorney. So the question becomes, what kind of relationship, if any, did the District Attorney have with Zimmerman’s father? From what I have read, Zimmerman’s father was a retired judge who used to practice in Virgina. I’m hoping that the federal investigation, which is still ongoing is exploring this possible connection.
gwangung
@Clime Acts: And you had to go lower.
Fuck off, asshole.
Tone In DC
@kdaug:
LULz.
Clime Acts
@gwangung:
Thank you for your well reasoned and well thought out response.
You are free now to return to your know nothing orgy of clueless outrage.
Sly
@Clime Acts:
He could do worse. Maybe there’s a grieving mother out there that he can spit on. If, of course, you haven’t gotten to them all already.
Michael
@CraigoMc: Only if the claim of self defense is “reasonably raised,” whatever that means
amcoco
@PeakVT:
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Well, I mean, his father is a retired federal judge. Not exactly OJ Simpson territory, but having worked for a federal judge – and having a roundabout idea what they make (and the kinds of “retirement” options available to former federal judges – I personally know one former fed district judge who walked off the bench and into half a mil at a private firm) – I would say that Georgie has the lawyer fees covered. The problem is simply that most lawyers (present company excluded) are, ahem, not that bright.
shortstop
@feebog: Zimmerman senior was a Virginia magistrate, not a judge, for a few years. In Virginia, magistrates perform judicial functions such as conducting probable cause hearings on criminal complaints brought by police and determining whether a person who has been arrested is eligible for bail.
Clime Acts
@Clime Acts:
I don’t get why Cole is grooming idiocy on this blog. None of you has any idea what really happened between Trayvon and Zimmerman, and are unwilling to wait for reliable evidence to find out one way or the other.
So these threads are simply factless circle jerks of feel-good poutrage, signifying nothing.
You’ll note that John drops the hit-generating, Wikipedia-based post to rally the emo poutragers, then watches hockey or goes to bed, rarely engaging. Maybe that’s cause he’s trolling. Effectively, I might add. :D
Brachiator
This is just crap thrown out for the benefit of the media, and possibly for some prosepective jurors. It doesn’t have to be particularly sophisticated.
@kay:
And so, it really makes you wonder what the FL legislators, and legistlators in other states with similar laws were thinking when they were so hot to put these laws on the books.
And compounding the insanity, there really doesn’t seem to be a strong reconsideration of these laws; and many conservatives and conservative commentators are desperately trying to defend the value of these laws.
shortstop
@amcoco: Not a judge and not federal. Most recent salary info I can find for full-time Virginia magistrates is $34,242 to $54,588, with chief magistrates making $39,678 to $63,237. That was in 2008, two years after Zimmerman’s dad stopped doing the job. No idea if he was full time.
JCT
@Brachiator:
Because the NRA and their very loud supporters see anything less than a completely armed society as a “defeat”. They are the masters of “slippery slope” arguments with their endless cries for “constitutional carry” (any place any time). Just wander over to any gun related forum and you will find long, toe-curling defenses of Zimmerman and thin veiled (if at all) racism. It’s horrifying. And the amazing part of all of this, as noted upthread, is that ALL concealed carry courses (I’ve taken one) emphasize that you should never pursue and cause a confrontation. Zimmerman broke every rule and still these nuts scream “self-defense” and SYG! These are the types of people who boycott the only local shooting range because the owner had the nerve to say that people should have to at least take SOME sort of course before carrying concealed.
These nuts drive the discourse to our detriment. These laws are here to stay.
El Cid
Well, as long as someone says they really and truly were defending themselves, Florida might be a great place to go if you want to kill someone.
Jake
@trollhattan:
Not really. Very difficult to win that. Having a crummy lawyer isn’t enough. Any appeals court would just say that the poor representation was a result of unreviewable tactical decisions the attorney made. O’Mara would have to do something truly egregious, like I dunno, fall asleep in court. Ineffective assistance of counsel is not something you keep in your back pocket as your ace in the hole on appeal.
Brachiator
@Elizabelle:
The NY Times on how the NRA helped shape Stand Your Ground Laws (N.R.A.’s Influence Seen in Expansion of Self-Defense Laws).
The NRA doesn’t have to be at the trial. They already have various state legislators in the bag.
Jake
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
The state of Florida has jurisdiction over this homicide, not the feds, so whatever that law is applies. Assuming the DOJ can’t prosecute Zim for a hate crime (hard), there’s really nothing else to invoke federal jurisdiction that I can think of.
CraigoMc
@Jake: At least one appeals court (Sixth, I believe) has held that a lawyer asleep during trial does not necessarily constitute ineffective assistance of counsel.
Sly
@Brachiator:
Cha-ching?
“The NRA and the NRA Political Victory Fund, its political action committee, have donated about $2.6 million to state-level [Florida] political campaigns, committees and individual politicians since 2003, according to records compiled by the National Institute on Money and State Politics.”
I’d imagine the last time Florida conservatives thought the lives of black kids were worth that kind of money was sometime in the late 1850s.
Jake
@CraigoMc: You’re right, looks like I misremembered that case from a Death Penalty class I took years ago. But yeah, that just further proves my point of how hard ineffective assistance of counsel is to win–I can’t even remember what a lawyer has to do.
Sad_Dem
The public conduct of the lawyers in this case did remind me a little of the Dude in the back of the Lebowski limo, saying, “em, ahh, new sh*t has come to light!”
pragmatism
@Alison:
why do people misuse literally? i’m on a one man jihad against the misuse of literally. the final straw was when rick perry said that if the U.S. leaves iraq then iran will invade iraq “literally at the speed of light”. if iran had the ability to travel at light speed, we have way bigger problems than them invading iraq.
rikyrah
@BigSouthern:
AMEN
gex
@Elizabelle: Hell, he can get married. Gay non-murderers can’t do that.
gocart mozart
@Randy P:
In appellate cases only.
shortstop
@Jake: It’s
been used successfully a couple of times
here in Illinois when the attorneys were drunk in court. That number pales, of course, to the sum total of times attorneys have been hammered in court without consequences.
gocart mozart
@CraigoMc:
Don’t mess with Texas.
roseyviolet
Poor guy. At this point, it must seem almost like it wasn’t even worth it to kill the kid.
Elie
Nope — this guy is not going to have a second life as a poster child for gun lovers. I believe that the evidence is going to show that he stalked a kid and shot him pretty much in cold blood. I think that the evidence is going to be irrefutable. The right is going to have to figure out how to save that law on the books rather than Zimmerman — whose example works against having that law.
Oh I am sure that some of the dorks are staying awake nights trying to figure out how to do this — but its light years from any connection except to murder by stupid white redneck. ..And we have those nice folks in Oklahoma out shooting nCLANGrs… also feeling that they have permission to do what this guy did under the guise of a horrible law — play vigilante on brown/blacks who you don’t even know…
If he is convicted, he will have to be in isolation in prison. Can’t think he would want to mingle with the brothers once they know he is there. And if he is freed, well, plastic surgery, a new identify and lifelong looking over his shoulder is in his future…
shortstop
@roseyviolet: You wonder at what point it sank into his sick, thick head that he wasn’t going to be viewed as a hero.
eemom
Finally watched the vid of Angela Corey’s press conference, and TZ was absolutely right — the criticisms leveled at her by Cole and others were off the charts ridiculous.
I’d like to see one of y’all geniuses deliver carefully scripted remarks in a case of this magnitude before hundreds of clicking cameras and a mob of snarling mediabots without an “odd mannerism” or two. JHC.
Rafer Janders
@amcoco:
Federal judges don’t make that much, only about $175,000 a year. Now, yes, this is far more than the average American, but it’s also only about what a first-year associate at a major NY law firm makes.
And it’s not that much money that anyone earning it can comfortably afford to pay legal fees in a high-profile murder case. If it goes to trial, then Zimmerman’s defense team can easily rack up legal bills of over a million dollars.
Michael
@pragmatism: People using “literally” to mean “figuratively” is a huge pet peeve of mine.
eemom
@BigSouthern:
Further to that point, I had a TV tuned to Fox “news” shoved in my face the other day and I saw their headline referring to this as the “Neighborhood Watch Killing.” Almost fucking threw up. I mean that is a new level of sick even for them.
burnspbesq
@AA+ Bonds:
Ya think?
amcoco
@shortstop:
Yep, my bad. The reporting was inconsistent. Several articles I read reported that Sr. was a federal magistrate judge (magistrates at the federal level are judges, albeit the low man on the totem pole). Based on Sr.’s recent comments that there is “no way” he would have issued a warrant in a case like this, it’s somewhat reassuring to know he never exercised actual juridical authority.
But, knowing nothing about what Sr. did before or after sitting the bench, my point was that many ex-judicial officials do just fine (as most leverage the position into another that actually pays better than 38-60K/yr). Again, knowing nothing, I nevertheless suspect that the Zimmermans are probably doing okay. That, or I’m sure the book advance from Regnery would cover the atty fees….
burnspbesq
@flukebucket:
Remind us again in which states you passed the bar and are licensed to practice law.
Some Loser
@burnspbesq:
Honest Question: Do you enjoy making an ass of yourself?
amcoco
@Rafer Janders:
Well, except that
mostall federal judges came from highly successful careers in private practice and many return to even more successful careers in private practice when they leave the bench. Really, a federal judgeship is what wildly successful lawyers do when they get tired of working 80 hours a week (at the kind of job that will more than pay for a high profile criminal defense team).Which would be all well and good, if I hadn’t been corrected on the facts (tks shortstop!), and it turns out Sr. was just a low-level state bureaucrat (though that says nothing about what he did for a living before or after ruling – let’s hope at least occasionally correctly – on PC warrants).
burnspbesq
@Spaghetti Lee:
No need for that. All Zimmerman’s counsel has to do is create reasonable doubt as to one element of the offense. The toughest thing for the prosection to prove in a case like this, and where I would focus if I were defense counsel, is the mental state for murder 2. It’s a risky strategy because it probably requires letting Zimmerman testify, but it may be all the defense has (depending on what the physical evidence looks like).
eemom
@amcoco:
They have the title “Magistrate Judge,” but they are not Article III judges appointed by the President for life — just ordinary federal employees. That’s kind of a huge difference.
burnspbesq
@amcoco:
False. There are some USDJs who spent their entire career at DOJ. Here’s one example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Seibel
shortstop
@amcoco: No, he wasn’t federal. VA magistrates are really not power players; until 2008 they didn’t even have to have bachelor’s degrees, much less law licenses! While I take your point about officers of the court at all levels tending to work their connections, it’s doubtful this guy had much muscle to flex. It appears that George is on his own.
eemom
um, that’s not true either. Plenty of them are former US attorneys, other public servants or academics.
eemom
@burnspbesq:
dammit burnsy — why don’t you and I just shut up and leave all these legal minutae to the experts? We could go start our very own Charlie Pierce Parrot blog!
burnspbesq
@eemom:
Camus said it best: “One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”
amcoco
@The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:
That’s what’s known as the “felony murder rule,” and that’s not exactly how it works. The felony has to be independent of the killing, and it’s only a specified list of felonies that varies from state to state (under the federal rules, I believe it’s still limited to BARKER crimes – burglary, arson, rape, kidnapping, escape, and robbery). So felony murder would apply if you shot the clerk during an armed robbery (the armed robbery being the felony), or kicked out the back window of a cop’s car and threw a pedestrian under the cruiser’s wheels while making your getaway (escape). But the “felony” (here, the assault and shooting) can’t also be the one that caused the death; otherwise every homicide would be a felony murder.
Most states now use BARKER and similar violent crimes as aggravating circumstances, and a few may still have an explicit felony murder rule (bumping it up to murder-one), but to my knowledge almost all jurisdictions that distinguish between 1st and 2nd degree murder require “premeditation” or similar standard for 1st degree (and I’m not even going to get into the “no time too short” vs. “actual deliberation” debate :D).
burnspbesq
@Some Loser:
That’s not an honest question, and you know it perfectly well, but I’ll play along.
If pointing out ignorance, stupidity, and bias is “making an ass of yourself,” then I shall gleefully continue to make an ass of myself.
P.S. You’re quite confused. And your handle is both accurate and (I presume unintentionally) hilarious.
amcoco
@eemom:
Very well, you can reinsert “most.” But I think you’ll find the list of federal judges who do not hail from pedigreed law firms is a very short list indeed.
Brachiator
@burnspbesq: RE: Trayvon had a right to attack Zimmerman. Trayvon had a right to shoot and kill Zimmerman.
If Martin felt his life was in danger by a strange man who had been following him, wouldn’t he have had a right to stand his ground?
This law appears to encourage trial by combat because it elminates any duty to retreat. Whoever is left standing can claim the right to be able to stand his or her ground. The law appears to singularly focus on “fearing for your life,” ignoring the circumstances which might lead a person to have such a fear, even if the previous conduct was reckless, stupid, or provocative.
So, no, Martin did not have a right to just attack Zimmerman. But if he had felt in fear of his life by Zimmerman, and started fighting for his life, he would have had as much of a right to stand his ground as Zimmerman.
And for the sake of those in the room who are slow on the uptake, I am not stating that this is categorically what happened. But consider. If a Zimmerman type is pursuing a person he thinks may be a “bad guy,” and the other person is simply trying to get away, but either or both have in mind the idea that they can justifiably kill the other person, you have a law that indirectly encourages the worst possible outcome.
psychobroad
@roseyviolet: Perfect. I only wish I could have thought of it first. I think you win this one, and you were up against some stiff competition.
Mike Lamb
@burnspbesq: What’s your expectation here? You want a legal discertation, with appropriate Bluebook style citations for each post and comment? I mean good grief–comments aren’t generally known for nuance–they’re more like tweets–and yet you and eemom want to go ballistic if someone has the temerity to opine on legal subjects. It’s even worse on posts re: SCOTUS, where eemom (and to a lesser extent you) can’t stomach a political opinion overlaid on a SCOTUS case as if there aren’t political dimensions to such decisions and, as importantly, the decision making process.
And for the record, this is coming from another attorney who doesn’t give two shits if people want to post any opinion they please on any aspect of a “legal” issue.
eemom
@Mike Lamb:
1. d-i-s-s-e-r-t-a-t-i-o-n. I’m surprised you ever got as far as the Bluebook.
2. I never said there “aren’t political dimensions to [Supreme Court] decisions and, as importantly, the decision making process.” What I “can’t stomach” are people who know NOTHING about the process insisting that EVERY Supreme Court opinion is an exercise in pure political hackery because Bush v. Gore and shutup, that’s why.
3. There is, in fact, a difference between informed comment and ignorant comment. There is also a difference between an informed comment and a Bluebooked dissertation — though I’m not surprised that difference is lost on you.
4. Lawyers can be idiots too. You’re Exhibit A to that.
Mike Lamb
@eemom: So just a complete bitch? Got it.
Mike Lamb
@eemom: You’ll also have to point to any comment of yours that recognized the political dimensions of the SCOTUS decision making process because, at least as it regards the ACA case, all you do is berate anyone who you don’t feel has the appropriate credentials to comment on the case while making the occasional oblique references to Scalia’s opinion in Raich. Nothing but loud noises with appeals to authority mixed in.
pragmatism
the BJ cool kid crowd is getting a bit nasty lately. i find this particularly funny as some of them decry the insider nature of comment sections like at Atrios’ place in the wanker of the decade posts here. oh well, humanity is what it is. makes me like this place less, though.
last night’s “you must defer to long term commenter X” crap was hilarious.
eemom
@Mike Lamb:
So just a razor-sharp intellect brimming over with substantive argumentation?
If that’s your instinctive response to disagreement, you might want to check your malpractice policy and see if sexist assholery is covered.
eemom
@pragmatism:
[looks around]
Me? A “cool kid”? Fer realz?
pragmatism
@eemom: no offense eemom. i have no problem with you or anyone else. just my observations of you and your cohorts on the Martin thread last night basking in the glory of trolling the noobs and how that contradicts some of the same people decrying insider-y commenting sections.
Mike Lamb
@eemom: You mean calling me an idiot because I misspelled dissertation qualifies as substantive argumentation? You’d go before a judge to make a “substantive” “argument” about how you found a typo in my brief?
And you know what’s funny–I knew when I used “bitch” that you’d come back with a comment re: sexism. I had absolutely zero doubt in my mind. I’m sure you have never used the word “bitch” as an analog for “asshole” when talking to or about another woman, right?
Carol from CO
He’s just trying to taint the jury pool. Next up – Zimmerman tebowing.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@eemom: 1. Pointing out spelling errors is the heart of any substantive argument.
2. Every single person you’ve argued with and insulted regarding the Supreme Court knew absolutely nothing about the court and literally believed that every single case since Bush v. Gore was decided on solely political grounds. You know this to be true because anyone who’d dare disagree with you must be cartoonishly stupid, cuz’ if they weren’t they’d agree with you. QED
3. There’s also a difference between an informative comment and simply stating “I am a lawyer and I KNOW, so shut up.”
4. Seriously, a spelling correction? In a blog comment section? In the same comment that you moan about people not making substantive arguments? Are you deliberately trying to make a parody of yourself? Well, as you say, lawyers can be idiots.
P.S. I know that cuz’ is not the correct spelling of because. So feel free to skip that in your rage-filled reply, in which you substantively insult me over and over.
mclaren
Coming up soon: the old standby…Zimmerman’s attorney announces sorrowfully: “Mistakes were made.”
mclaren
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
A word about attempting to debate eemom:
As Simonides of Keos said circa 500 BC, “To argue with a fool is to become one.”
Everyone on this forum recognizes that eemom has never had anything substantive to add to any discussion and is, in Leonardo da Vinci’s words, “A passage for wind.”
Rafer Janders
@Michael:
It’s something that literally drives me insane.
Rafer Janders
@amcoco:
Well, that’s not true at all. Many, many federal judges are appointed after working as federal prosecutors, law professsors, or otherwise in government, etc., and so have never really worked in lucrative private practice.
And even if you have what most people think of as a lot of money, it’s often never enough to comfortably pay the costs of a long-fought criminal defense. People who’ve never seen it up close have no idea what an overwhelming money drain it can be. Basically, it can screw up your financial life for good and for ever, even if you’re making a medium six figure salary.
Rafer Janders
@burnspbesq:
You’re kidding, right? You’re so self-deluded that you, um, literally think that’s what you’re doing? Rather than being a steady source of ignorance and stupidity yourself?
No. No. You don’t get to do that. Especially after yesterday, when you had your pants pulled down and were roundly spanked by the assembled commentariat for your “the Church hierarchy doesn’t speak for the Church” comment, and then were too cowardly to hang around to defend yourself.
rea
Is this really the best the legal community can do in a high profile case?
No, but Zimmerman picked these guys, and we know what a good decision-maker he is.
wobbly
What the hell is a moran?
I know plenty of morons, but have yet to encounter a moran!!
pragmatism
@wobbly: from this guy: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/296/morans.jpg&imgrefurl=http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/get-a-brain-morans&h=468&w=480&sz=40&tbnid=V3MJSAieuO3vSM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=92&zoom=1&docid=kbGgDYjzQVL5HM&sa=X&ei=W0WHT5S4IKvViAK_76z5Ag&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAQ&dur=2593
burnspbesq
@mclaren:
Of all people …
burnspbesq
@Rafer Janders:
Au contraire, mon ami. “too cowardly to hang around?” No, I have a career that sometimes requires that I not make this place my top priority. I spent my morning yesterday with the IRS and the Department of Justice. Sorry I missed all the hilarity.
shortstop
@burnspbesq: It’s damned odd how often your “career” requires you to cut and run immediately after you’ve been schooled. One hundred percent of the time seems high for a coincidence, but who are we to question, given your reputation for veracity around here?
Anyway, you found time to discuss sports in another thread last night after your high-powered day, but not to get back to the thread in which you were so thoroughly humiliated. Curiouser and curiouser.
pragmatism
@burnspbesq: you forgot the #humblebrag tag.
eemom
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
sorry to disappoint you, cookie-boy, but I’m raged out for now. Back into the treehouse you go.
@mclaren:
You are beyond parody.
eemom
@burnspbesq:
Jeez, burnsy, that was some pretty sloppy ass-covering there. I mean, commenting on an evening sports thread INSTEAD OF going back to fight a 12 hour old flame war? Did you really think you’d get away with that? I mean you act as though everybody on this blog has better things to do than monitor your every move.
Rafer Janders
@shortstop:
Aaaaaand….that’s the last we’ll see of him in this thread.
But he’ll arise again tomorrow, fresh for the fight, as if all this had never been…until, that is, business calls him away again oh! just at that moment that he’ll be gearing up for the knock-out punch. Alas, cruel fate! Curse you, gods of ill-timing!