Does he not realize this sort of self-serving statement is just going to infuriate everyone? Better yet, does his lawyer not understand this will just infuriate everyone:
A Florida judge Friday set a $150,000 bond for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot an unarmed black teenager and touched off a firestorm of controversy about race and the American justice system.
Zimmerman, 28, appeared in court in a dark suit and gray tie, and, in a surprising move, took the stand. There, in a voice verging on meek, he apologized to the family of Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old he admits he shot — but only, he says, in self-defense.
“I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son,” he said to the parents, who attended the hearing in the central Florida city of Sanford, where the shooting took place. “I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not.”
What a load of nonsense. This wasn’t an apology, it was excuse making and playing to the prospective jury pool.
“I’m sorry for the loss of your son.” They didn’t lose him. They didn’t misplace him. He didn’t run away or die of leukemia or vanish into thin air. You fucking shot him to death for the crime of walking while black in your neighborhood.
“I did not know how old he was.” Who cares? Is there some sort of catch and release program down in Florida? Unarmed black minors are off limits, but unarmed black adults are fair game for cowboy wanna-be cops who want to play with their guns?
“I thought he was a little bit younger than I am, and I did not know if he was armed or not.” Again, just more bullshit. If you didn’t know whether he was armed or not, why did you confront him, against the expressed rules of Neighborhood Watch and the directions of the 911 dispatcher? Why were you carrying a gun, again against the explicit rules of Neighborhood Watch?
I can’t wait to hear this idiot testify under oath.
katie5
This is all scripted and anticipatory for questions in the court case. Sincerity, unfortunately, not considered necessary.
MattF
It’s the nolo cogitas defense.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
He’ll never get on the stand. No defense attorney would risk it. It’s one thing to have him give these little scripted, self-serving statements. It’s another to allow a prosecutor to conduct a legal vivisection.
General Stuck
And the bullshit around Mr. Zimmerman and his past behavior is piling up, to paint an ugly picture of a bully to those younger and female. As his ex girl friend swears in an affidavit that George pushed and slapped her, then asked her how it felt. And George files an injunction claiming SHE attacked him and he was defending himself, and all his enablers come to the rescue for this coward .
edit – this is the kind of bullshit yarn often spun in the old south justifying kluckers and others that visited violence on black people, in the court of cracker kangaroos. They were never to blame, as it was always the victim that started shit, and the white man was only defending himself to set the world straight against those blackety black blacks.
Linda Featheringill
So . . if this fine specimen is out on bail, will he stick around for the murder trial?
And BTW, I wouldn’t want to be his lawyer. Yikes.
Seebach
Is his nose actually broken? Pictures I have seen imply no.
BGinCHI
Watershed moment in American Life, 2012: I’m sorry I killed your son, now please relieve me of the consequences.
Sounds like the Iraq war cheerleaders.
Sounds like the GOP on healthcare.
Sounds like rich people in this country who want all the benefits of American society with none of the responsibilities.
They are all George Zimmerman.
fuzed
A KOS article catches that on the 911 tape, he reported estimated age for Travon as late teens.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/20/1084972/-Zimmerman-s-Wife-Admits-Z-Used-Self-Defense-Excuse-Years-Ago
scav
Exact same reaction to the whole “lost” statement. He’s not lost, he’s underground and not going anywhere buddy. I immediately lost all interest in hearing any further gems dripping from his lips and looks like it was a good call. What vacuous reasons he gives for killing someone. People choose side dishes at fast food restaurants with more attention paid.
Brachiator
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
Good point. Could this statement be used against him?
And of course the statement is scripted and self-serving. This ain’t an old Perry Mason episode, where the case turns on spontaneous outbursts of confession.
Violet
@fuzed:
Yeah at the time of the 911 call he had no problem accurately estimating Trayvon’s age. Now he’s trying to claim he didn’t know he was that young? What a fucking liar.
Aet
It sounds like something he was coached to say, but memorized wrong or tried to improve on.
The first sentence was the one he got right. He can’t say, “I’m sorry I CAUSED the loss of your son,” because he’s still trying to beat the rap. For being a kid-killer.
But the second two sentences are ‘edits’. They’re justifications. Roll the third sentence around for a moment, and you’ll see the prosecutor’s touchdown.
If I was the prosecution, I would have stood up and cheered. The first sentence is a dodge, but the second sentence shows that his judgement was terrible by mistaking what is obviously a child for an adult.
And in the third sentence, not only is he saying that he thought the child was an adult, he’s admitting that he wasn’t being threatened.
FlipYrWhig
When Allen West becomes Vice President, George Zimmerman can run for West’s seat!
rea
@Brachiator: “Could this statement be used against him?”
Oh, hell yes. If he were my client, he’s keep his mouth shut, or I’d withdraw.
pragmatism
who in the hell told PR people/lawyers that the non-apology apology is a good thing to do?
BGinCHI
@FlipYrWhig: He’s too sane and liberal.
Veritas
How can liberals be obsessed with some legal case that will never concern them when the economy is going up in flames?
Just look at what Allentown, PA has gone through since Obambi took office.
Time for a change.
#OIW–Obama Isn’t Working
ET
There are reasons that lawyers tell defendants to just STFU.
Story on the cover of the WaPo about the sentencing of a drunk driver in Maryland. He was driving 3 friends while drunk, crashed, the passengers died he lived and fled the scene. Charged and convicted of 3 counts of vehicular manslaughter and one count of not staying at the scene of an accident. He was in court to try to get the sentenced reduced and was all like -but my harsh punishment can’t bring your son back. Really? Really? Again the lawyer should have told him a few phrases NOT to say.
The Dangerman
He didn’t know if he was armed, so he shot first to ask questions later. This fucker should stay in jail for his own safety.
natthedem
I have an issue with him making this statement to Trayvon’s parents after they had rejected his offer for a face-to-face meeting. If you force someone to hear your apology like that, you’re not sorry for their pain, you’re sorry for your guilt.
That said, I look forward to the trial when the prosecutor can rebut his claim that “I thought he was a little bit younger than I am” with Zimmerman’s statements to the 911 operator that Trayvon looked like he was in his late teens.
cathyx
I wonder if someone will post bail? His parents?
BGinCHI
@Veritas: VICTORY!
General Stuck
And if those photos are real, and even if Trayvon got the better of this vigilante asshole, all that that proves is George Zimmerman is a candy ass that a child could handle. It says nothing of who made the first contact to start such a struggle, and all the other evidence, ALL OF IT, points to Zimmerman creating this tragedy, from minute one. This is the south though, and things have not improved so much as to not give the white dude the benefit of any and all possible doubt, real or imagined.
cmorenc
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
In criminal cases where the defense amounts to justifiable homicide by self-defense, the defendant and his/her attorney are often between a rock and a hard place about the tactical decision to testify or not. Juries DO have a desire to hear the defendant’s testimony in such cases, and aren’t as inclined to favorably view evidence in the defense’s favor in its absence, irrespective of the defendant’s 5th amendment rights to remain silent and decline to testify on the stand. What the defense does have to work with (without putting Zimmerman on the stand) is the defendant’s own initial statements to police describing the incident (Troy allegedly wrestled Zimmerman to the ground, pinning him when Zimmerman shot Troy). What the defense also has to contend with are the multitude of rather obvious evidentiary holes and contradictions to this version of events, which undermine legitimate self-defense even under Florida’s “stand your ground” statute.
It’s a good guess that the defense will be playing more for a result of some lesser form of manslaughter conviction than second-degree murder, rather than having any realistic hope for any outright acquittal. The defense will really need to hope for some breaks in the composition of the jury to pull this off. I agree, the defense will likely NOT put Zimmerman on the stand, but IMHO there’s no realistic chance for an outright acquittal without taking this gamble.
Veritas
@BGinCHI:
Yes, an incumbent with a failed economic record the likes of Obama does lead to a victory for the challenger.
Women have especially been hurt by Obamanomics.
#OIW–Obama Isn’t Working
Brachiator
Not really relevant. And not a chance in hell that any of this will come up at trial.
campionrules
Christ on a cracker – this will just be the beginning of the media circus of this trial.
No one covered themselves in glory today – the prosecutor on the cross examine sounded like an idiot, Zimmerman didn’t come across as sympathetic and the state’s case for Murder 2 looks ridiculously thin.
I just don’t see how they can possibly prove depraved and malicious.
Finally, can we just stop with the Zimmerman = a white man. The dude clearly looks like a POC and identifies as one. Yes, I know his father is white. Obama’s mother was white- do we accuse the President of being ‘not black enough’?
That’s a slur that the right wing likes to use – are we just going to throw a POC under the bus because we think he’s a killer and has light skin?
Jesus.
On a related note to that above – I find that any evidence that this was a racially charged murder to be very thin. Clearly the prosecutors don’t believe it is and we seem to have very little evidence that Martin was targeted by Zimmerman because he was black.
Clime Acts
I call Blogmaster Self-Trolling.
Neither this poster nor any of the ever so informed lynch mob here knows any more this afternoon about what went down during the shooting than they did the day it happened.
THIS is new, however.
Napoleon
@cmorenc:
I assume that Zimmerman and his attornies have the burden of proof for their defense which, if true, would seem to me to all but require that they put zimmerman on the stand.
muddy
“Catch and release”, gods love ya John. You have a wonderful turn of phrase, especially when you’re pissed.
Sadly, I don’t think they are meant to be released dead.
General Stuck
@Veritas:
WTF is wrong with you. This is a thread on the topic a full grown man murdering a child, for no other reason than being black. And you are bringing cheap campaign cheer leading for your wingnuts into it? Or, if a spoof, this is some fairly brane dead spoofing. Go soak your head, then hit it with a hammer.
FlipYrWhig
@Veritas: I hear that 119% of job losses have affected women, and a whopping 168% have marred the happiness of cute fuzzy bunnies!
opie jeanne
Photo purported to be the back of Zimmerman’s head, taken right after the shooting, and we’re supposed to be all shocked by the huuuge amounts of blood:
http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg
There are warnings about its graphic content, but really, that’s not a lot of blood for a head wound. Those things bleed like mad. Almost any parent has seen stuff like this on their kids, hopefully not more than once per child. Each of my three darlings required stitches for small cuts on their heads that bled like it was the end of the world.
Brachiator
@Veritas: Go away.
muddy
@Veritas: I did not click on your link about Allentown, but I don’t think their troubles date from Obama’s term.
Billy Joel wrote a song about it 30 years ago for the christ’s sake.
Gex
@Brachiator: Tru dat. History of behavior is only used to prove why sluts can’t be raped. Unfortunately.
Veritas
@muddy:
Then why hasn’t Obambi done anything to help? He made some pretty big promises in ’08–big promises, small results, that’s Obamanomics.
#OIW–Obama Isn’t Working
FlipYrWhig
@campionrules: I dunno. I think it’s more like a friend of mine used to say: “it’s not that I’m racist, it’s that I hate stupid people, and most black people are stupid!”. For Zimmerman, “it’s not that I’m racist, it’s that I hate suspicious-looking people in my neighborhood, and for some reason this black kid looked terribly suspicious just then!”
PurpleGirl
If he felt threatened by Trayvon Martin, what’s he going to feel when housed in prison with criminals his own age and size… He won’t want to be in the general population and separated will be like solitary.
General Stuck
@campionrules:
Say what? You really think this guy would have gone as far as he did to cause this tragedy if it was a white kid walking down the street. And many Hispanics describe their race as white.
TooManyJens
And as shitty as this statement was, he still had to be coached into making it, because before today neither George Zimmerman nor any of his surrogates could be bothered to express a word of sorrow, sadness, or regret that a kid is dead.
Chyron HR
@Veritas:
Too bad Obama has an insurmountable money advantage. Even Mitt admits it:
“The unions will put in hundreds of millions of dollars. There’s nothing like it on our side.”
But keep
whistlingscreaming about UNLIMITED CORPORATE CASH past the graveyard if it makes you feel better.BGinCHI
From now on, when Veritas posts, you should simply type VICTORY! and then get back to the thread. It will make you feel a little better and it won’t feed the troll. He doesn’t make arguments and he’s stupid.
Veritas
@General Stuck:
Fun fact: hispanics are “brown people” according to liberals when talking about immigration, but “white” when ever they shoot a black kid.
It’s scientifically proven!
Surreal American
@General Stuck:
PurpleGirl
@Veritas: Maybe he has a Republican House that won’t let sane legislation pass, whose members who damned interested in women’s wombs and stuff like that. (And I give credit also to the blue dogs in the Senate.)
BGinCHI
@Veritas: VICTORY!
General Stuck
@Surreal American:
What does this comment mean?
Shari
@opie jeanne:
How many stitches did it take to close those gaping wounds?
Veritas
@PurpleGirl:
It’s always someone else’s fault for the likes of Obama, isn’t it? Never their own.
#OIW–Obama Isn’t Working
muddy
@Veritas: Come on, it’s so obvious that he just wants to be mean to them. Them specifically.
General Stuck
@Veritas:
Oh, blow it out your ass. What I said was true, living in the SW. Maybe you could call Sean Hannity and ask for help? Like George did/.
Veritas
@General Stuck:
If he had been shot by a white guy, especially if its a Tea Partier, Zimmerman would be “Brown”, for sure.
campionrules
@FlipYrWhig:
We must have the same friend – he doesn’t understand me when I point out that that very statement is racist.
I reviewed the call logs that Zimmerman made that were made public over, I think, the previous year. Note that most of these calls are non-emergency calls, not 9/11 calls, as all calls to an EOC are recorded even if they are made to the non-emergency number.
Yes, there are several calls made about black males and this could possibly speak to profiling on Zimmerman’s part. In fact, this is the strongest proof that he was a racially profiling.
However, he made plenty of other calls as well, as I expect, an overzealous, self appointed neighborhood watch volunteer might. For a wide variety of things – again not 9/11 calls but mainly non-emergency calls. And the community had apparently experienced a recent string of break ins.
Does this make him a racial profiler? Possibly but hardly conclusively,
Besides that fact there’s really no other evidence of substance linking Zimmerman as a racist.
pragmatism
@Veritas: the use of hispanic in lieu of the preferred latino mirrors the out of touch-ness of Rmoney. Good show chap!
trollhattan
@Veritas:
Attn: John Cole. Is it now okay for me to troll my “Reel Rollexx Replicas” and “Awsome Diskount Nikkes” nao? Because that’s basically what we have here.
And for all I know, Trayvon might could have been wearing some of my awesome diskount nikkes.
Troll isn’t even trolling, it’s advertising.
Surreal American
@General Stuck:
From a Warren Zevon song. A more oblique-than-I-intended reference to BJ’s resident troll.
Catsy
@opie jeanne: There isn’t the remotest chance in hell that what’s in that picture is the result of having one’s head slammed to the pavement repeatedly.
None.
Sal
John,
He ditched his first team of goons for Fox News. You really think this lawyer has a handle on the freak?
General Stuck
@Veritas:
LOLwut! put down the crackpipe, dude.
campionrules
@General Stuck:
Well I don’t know and we’ll probably never know. But Zimmerman clearly identifies as a POC – at least on his Voter ID – and to White America he certainly looks like one of those ‘brown’ people.
Look at the dude – you’re comfortable in calling him a white dude? You’d expect that he’d get the benefit of the doubt as a white male?
I don’t think so.
General Stuck
@Surreal American:
Okay, wasn’t sure.
Patricia Kayden
Very curious as to why Trayvon’s age made a difference to Zimmerman.
I am very happy to see him having to take the stand and explain himself. Looking forward to the trial. Even if he gets off, at least he didn’t just shoot down an unarmed teenager and ride off into the sunset unscathed.
Ben Franklin
There no lack of speculation about the facts. The Coroners Report is what I’m waiting for.
Struggle for GZ’s weapon? How did GZ fend off TM while on cellphone and reaching for his 9mm? Was a round chambered before the struggle? Was the chest wound entry or exit?
pragmatism
@campionrules: he got the benefit of teh doubt for being the son of a former magistrate, which i think is more relevant here.
Hill Dweller
Willard’s got nothin’. No record to run on from his time as the Governor of Massachusetts. Nothing of merit while at Bain. No employment for the last 5 years.
Their only hope is stoking enough anti-Obama resentment(racial and otherwise) to win. No one is voting for Willard.
Forum Transmitted Disease
If the prosecutor gives a shit – an admittedly unlikely proposition – Zimmerman just talked his ass into prison.
Gex
@Chyron HR: I for one would welcome Mitt and the GOP working with Dems in a bipartisan way to take special interest money out of it and do publicly funded campaigns. What say you, Mitt? Do something about that union money!
Amir Khalid
@campionrules:
George Zimmerman doesn’t obviously look like a person of color to me, and it’s possible that he is white on both sides of his family. That his mother is Peruvian doesn’t rule out her being white: the upper classes in Latin American societies include a lot of white people. I had a Peruvian-born family friend who was white.
Also, it’s my understanding that Hispanics can be white, black, native (Latin) American, or any combination thereof.
RD
@Veritas:
Three years of stapling teabags to your forehead and all you have to show for it is Mitt fucking Romney.
Congratulations.
campionrules
@pragmatism:
Again,
Let’s be honest here. He got the benefit of the doubt because his dad was a retired magistrate judge from Virginia, now living in Florida, who, as a magistrate in the Virginia Judicial system was the lowest ranking judge possible – basically a hopped up traffic court judge?
I mean, I guess Zimmerman’s dad could wield some power living in a state where he was never a judge and being retired and all that.
I’d be more willing to entertain the notion that he got the benefit of the doubt from the cops because they knew him.
I would very hesitant to consider that his father’s prior job, as a low ranking judge, in a different state had anything to do with it.
rlrr
@muddy:
Obama used his magic Kenyan time machine to ruin the economy 30 years ago…
Steve
I am baffled by all the people who say Zimmerman’s statement was scripted. I know it’s cool to be super-cynical and act like you just know everything is staged and there’s no way any of it could have been a spontaneous statement. But seriously, folks, you think an experienced defense attorney told him to get up there and say he thought Trayvon was about his age when he clearly says on the 911 tape that he looks like a teenager. Maybe you don’t “know” all of the stuff you think you know.
TooManyJens
@campionrules:
I’d be interested to know how many of the calls he made that were specifically about “suspicious” people were about black males. That he also reported broken windows and such isn’t really relevant to the question of whether he was racially profiling.
Brachiator
@Gex:
No. This is often excluded as well. Of course, now that we have Limbaugh back on the case, slut shaming will probably come back in full force.
@pragmatism:
Uh, no. “Latino” tends to be West Coast; “Hispanic” tends to be East Coast.
gbear
@Veritas:
Because we can multi-task, unlike you and your one trick pony that died and was ground up for dog food months ago.
Find some new shit or STFU.
General Stuck
@campionrules:
What I said was that many Hispanics consider themselves white. Funny that one of the first thing the guy does, is call one of the whitest person on the planet, as in Sean Hannity. The prosecutors have not put forth all their evidence toward proving their charges, and I am on record here, stating gawd help the lady prosecutor, if she is prosecuting murder 2 without the evidence to prove both profiling and that Zimmerman initiated the physical contact, whatever altercation followed.
I absolutely do believe this would not have happened, regardless of calling GZ a POC, or not, if Trayvon Martin had been white. The evidence is clear that GZ went way out of his way to not have “they always get away” happen.
muddy
@campionrules: He probably wanked on about his daddy the judge in his previous rounds of non-emergency tattling, and they remembered from before.
Veritas
@gbear:
Ground up for dog food? Watch out–Obambi might try and eat it!
#OIW–Obama Isn’t Working
pragmatism
@campionrules: knowing him and knowing his family and history are interconnected. i know it doesn’t fit your narrative, but try to fathom it.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@campionrules: Spoken like a typical white person who has ZERO clue that some of the nastiest racial animus in this country is between blacks and Hispanics.
Person of Color doesn’t mean they’re all the same color. Or that they have anything in common. Or that they wouldn’t cheerfully murder each other given half a chance.
R Johnston
@campionrules:
Not this again. Ugh.
The state’s case for murder 2 is very easy. Zimmerman intentionally shot Martin, without justification, causing Martin’s death. That’s murder 2. Murder 2 does not require intent to kill. Murder 2 does not require premeditation. All it requires is performing an unlawful act (i.e. a legally unjustified shooting) that puts a life in imminent danger, (i.e. shooting someone), depraved indifference to human life (i.e. such as demonstrated by intentionally unjustifiably shooting someone), and actually causing death.
Deliberately and unjustifiably shooting someone thereby causing that person’s death is the textbook prototypical example of murder 2 in Florida, and anyone telling you that the murder 2 case is tough to make in the Trayvon Martin execution is a liar.
FlipYrWhig
@campionrules: I’m far from the first to say this, but the much larger issue is why the local cops appeared to be so blasé about the whole encounter, and while Stand Your Ground undoubtedly has a lot to do with that, I have a strong hunch that they wouldn’t handle a dead white kid and a visibly black shooter with the SYG kid gloves they applied here.
campionrules
@Amir Khalid:
Yes, the execrable and quite frankl racist, U.S. ethnic status of Hispanic can cover a wide multitude of races. I would prefer the use of Latino or something else but we have what we have.
Maybe Zimmerman did identify himself as white – but to me he’s clearly a light skinned person of color.
And that’s clearly not the point, as we don’t know for sure how Zimmerman identified as. I just take exception to that fact that we throw around the word ‘white man’ when it seems to fit our perceptions when that same ‘white man’ wouldn’t be considered a white man by a good chunk of America.
opie jeanne
@Shari: The oldest kid got 3 in a tiny cut just below his left eye.
The youngest was next at age 4 and got 5 stitches in her face just above the bridge of her nose. She fell out of bed just after midnight on her 4th birthday.
The middle child was next, the following year; 4 stitches just above the forehead, inside the hairline.
Each wound was less than an inch, maybe less than half an inch.
FlipYrWhig
@gbear: Unfair. The Romneys’ ponies can do many tricks.
pragmatism
@Brachiator: no, you’re wrong about that. the country of origin will determine this. there is correlation but not causation with your east v. west coast distinction. however, as a blanket term, latino is preferred.
PurpleGirl
@Amir Khalid: Thank you; that was very well phrased. I dated a Cuban in college who had dark hair and eyes and milky white skin.
Brachiator
@Steve:
I have a hard time believing that a competent attorney would let Zimmerman make any kind of statement without reviewing and revising it.
This says nothing about Zimmerman’s sincerity.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
Yup, and the weird police behavior, or indifference to processing this as a murder scene, may give the feds an inroad to later get involved
celticdragonchick
@Veritas:
Victory!
gocart mozart
He has the right to remain silent, anything he says can and will be used against him. His lawyer should tell him to STFU.
gex
@Brachiator: Ah, good to hear. I imagine it hasn’t always been excluded, and that Ron Paul’s “honest rape” movement is an attempt to allow that stuff back in.
opie jeanne
@Catsy: That was my other reaction. Looks more like superficial scratches, in lines. I wonder if there was a sharp rock involved somehow.
Still, not a lot of blood.
gex
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Ooh, good point. Someone here assumes that ONLY white people are racist.
TooManyJens
@Brachiator:
Which doesn’t mean Zimmerman couldn’t have fucked it up the second he opened his mouth, of course. He doesn’t seem to think he did anything wrong and is none too bright — that’s not a great combination for ensuring he’ll stick to the script. I wouldn’t want to guess one way or another whether what he said is what his lawyer wanted him to say. (Except that I am assuming, for reasons stated upthread, that his lawyer told him to say he was sorry that Trayvon’s parents “lost” their son.)
campionrules
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
No shit.
You missed my point entirely.
My point is that we keep talking about Zimmerman as a white dude. Maybe from your perspective but not from mine or potentially from his.
You’re pigeon holing him in a particular race why? He could be POC and still a racist murderer.
Napoleon
@campionrules:
You really have no idea what you are talking about.
Steve
@Brachiator: Would a competent attorney intentionally let Zimmerman say he thought Martin was about his age, when he already said on the 911 call that he looked like a teenager? The question answers itself.
@R Johnston: Of course it is relatively easy to show that Zimmerman shot Martin with intent to kill. What may not be so easy is showing an absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the prosecution’s burden under Florida law.
gwangung
THEN FULL STOP. Don’t go any further.
You get that, right? What you judge has a lot less relevance than what he identifies as?
celticdragonchick
@Steve:
That assumes he even gets to trial to begin with…since he could walk at the at the pre-trial SYG hearing.
Mnemosyne
@pragmatism:
I think the East Coast vs. West Coast difference happens because people from Spanish-speaking countries are more likely to be from Latin America (Mexico, Honduras, etc.) in the West but more likely to be from the Caribbean (Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, etc.) in the East.
I do think that using “Hispanic” marks Mitt Mondale as someone who’s more comfortable in the East than the West, FWIW.
opie jeanne
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
“….some of the nastiest racial animus in this country is between blacks and Hispanics.”
Thank you! I was waiting for someone to point that out.
R Johnston
@Steve: But to charge Zimmerman with anything at all you have to overcome that same self-defense issue. Charging him with less than murder 2 makes no sense. If the prosecutor has a manslaughter case of any kind then there’s clearly just as good a murder 2 case.
And there really doesn’t seem to be much of a genuine self-defense issue here beyond the possibility that Martin had the right to defend himself against a stalker who’d been told by the police to quit it already.
Tone In DC
I truly hope he testifies. I think he is DYING to tell “his” side of this case. Especially the part about “they always get away”.
He’ll hang himself very easily with just a small length of metaphorical rope.
gaz
@Brachiator:
yep
Steve
@pragmatism:
This is why your English teacher tried to get you to avoid the passive voice. Latino is preferred by whom, the naming police? Frankly, I think what you mean is “I prefer Latino.”
Culture of Truth
Jason
Keep talking, George. Just keep on digging that hole for yourself.
stratplayer
@opie jeanne: I’m not impressed, either. This could easily have been faked, we don’t know whose head this actually is, and if, as I suspect, there are no police photos and medical reports documenting injuries to Zimmerman, then this picture is worth exactly nothing to the defense. If authentic, credible documentation exists, the defense would have released it to the press long ago. The prosecutor’s decision to go for murder 2 was no doubt influenced by the absence of any evidence corroborating Zimmerman’s story.
opie jeanne
@Mnemosyne: We hear Hispanic a lot on the West Coast, too. I hear it more than Latino. I’m in Seattle now, but we still go to Los Angeles several times a year, and we hear it there as well.
campionrules
@Culture of Truth:
I’m objecting to the fact that certain people seem to be so quick to assign a particular race to Zimmerman. In this case as a white man.
Why? He’s not described in the media that way. He identifies as hispanic – which could mean he still identifies as white as well – but that’s not the point. It’s not up to us to decide if a multiple race person is one thing or another. I’m uncomfortable with assigning racial identity to someone because it fits the narrative of “white dude killed black kid and no one did anything about it.”
There’s a lot of fucked up shit about his situation, of which we clearly don’t have all the information. Why confuse the issue. He got arrested and now, hopefully, the justice system can take its course.
pragmatism
@Steve: Noted. Irregardless and also too, Latino is the broader, more inclusive term.
Steve
@pragmatism: Keep pushing your personal opinions as some type of objective fact – it’s very persuasive.
Mnemosyne
@opie jeanne:
I live in LA County and I mostly hear “Latino,” at least in conversation. “Hispanic” is on a fair number of official documents and official statements, but the people seem to have mostly settled on Latino.
SatanicPanic
Victory!
Anyway, as a part POC I am going to state the obvious that there are plenty of racist POCs. The only important difference is that typically, racist white people in this country have monopolized the use of force, which has resulted in POCs being on the receiving end of most parts of the worst results of racism. Now that some states have decided its not in their interest to maintain that monopoly, maybe that distinction is a thing of the past. I’m not convinced that after decades of the US Gov trying to improve race relations this is a good thing, but for people who prefer a level playing field of chaos, maybe it is.
Culture of Truth
ummm
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: Or if someone is looking for another word to rhyme with panic.
R Johnston
@campionrules: Who are all these people you allege are making a big deal out of Zimmerman’s race? That’s pretty much just a strawman propagated by Zimmerman apologists. That Zimmerman is a spectacular racist who hates black people and is delusionally paranoid about them is another issue, one that does get brought up because it actually matters.
WWStBreitbartD
@opie jeanne:
Nice job moving the goal posts from He was NOT injured or attacked by Martin to Head wounds just bleed excessively.
Odd George Zimmerman looks different from the narrative portrayed here of a Hulking massive 250 Lb uninjured white guy who killed a tiny 140 lb innocent child with “Skiddles and Iced Tea”.
Not going to take the 5th like
DOJ official plans to plead the Fifth, refuse to testify on Fast and Furious
Culture of Truth
@campionrules: Fine, “certain people” whoever they are, called him white and your point is maybe his is not white. Got it.
I still have no idea what the ‘throwing under bus’ bit meant.
opie jeanne
@Mnemosyne: I’m trying to remember where I hear it. Probably on newscasts, but I do hear it more than Latino.
Amir Khalid
@Brachiator:
I think George Zimmerman’s statement was scripted — by Zimmerman himself, who then neglected to Run it by his lawyer. Had Zimmerman done so, he would surely have been advised to keep his trap shut. As knowledgeable commenters here have noted, the statement has only complicated the job of defending him. But then if Zimmerman had more common sense, Trayvon Martin would still be alive.
Svensker
I have no idea about Zimmerman’s motivations, hang ups, racial feelings (if any), etc., etc., etc. Nor do I have any idea whether his head was seriously hurt or not. All that stuff will come out at the trial. I don’t think he had any valid reason for shooting that kid either, but I don’t really know — again, that will come out at the trial.
For me, this case isn’t really about Zimmerman, at all. It’s about — why did he have a gun in the first place? Why didn’t the cops do anything when he killed Trayvon? Why did it take a public outcry to get them to do anything about Trayvon’s death? And why did the cops wait days to notify Trayvon’s family? And why are there STUPID laws like Stand Your Ground on the books and why can’t we get rid of them?
Jason
@campionrules:
I just don’t see how they can possibly prove depraved and malicious.
This old blog chestnut. “Malicious” is not required by the Florida statute, and “depraved” is a technical term within the statute. The exact language is:
[Second Degree Murder]
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
In any case, as I’m sure you’re aware, prosecutors, especially in Florida, go with the strongest charge they can, in order to have bargaining room for negotiating down the charges in a plea agreement. If it induces Zimmerman to take a plea to manslaughter, justice will have been served, at least in the terms of how the system works.
4tehlulz
Sorry I shot your kid lol.
opie jeanne
@SatanicPanic: Ha!
Redshift
@Mnemosyne: Any idea what the common ethnicities are in the upper Midwest? That’s where Mitt grew up, though he’s spent much of his adult life in the East. Then again, it may be irrelevant; I doubt he ever thought about what the appropriate term for Latino/Hispanic people was until he was running for office in MA.
Svensker
@WWStBreitbartD:
Oh, go join your hero. And it’s “Skittles” not “Skiddles”.
opie jeanne
@WWStBreitbartD: Ooooh! I’ve graduated to getting attention from a troll!!!
Forum Transmitted Disease
@campionrules: Who’s this “we”, dim bulb, you got a mouse in your pocket?
Zimmerman’s not white. But this was a racist killing.
Brachiator
@pragmatism:
Well, still no. Unless you mean that Mexican Americans, who heavily populate the West coast and Texas, often use Latino.
But here we’re more talking about the terms that gabachos use, than how people self-identify.
@Amir Khalid:
Things are more complicated than this. People who look white may nonetheless have more complex ancestry (Heather Locklear and Gabrielle Reece are examples of this). And there is a long history in Spanish speaking countries of people jumping throught hoops to move up the color caste scale.
This reminds me of some friends, born in Mexico, who clearly have some Native American ancestry. And yet the husband of the family insists that his children say that they are “Spanish.”
General Stuck
@Culture of Truth:
I called him white, and the reason was his behavior after the fact, reaching out to fucking Sean Hannity, a wingnuts wingnut. Now that may not be the whole story, in the end, but is enough for now, that I feel comfortable enough to call him white, or that he considers himself that way. If it emerges information that this is wrong, then I will accept it. But the overall facts of the case, as we know them at present, tells me GZ was/ is guy who identifies with the white power structures both in his area of living, and as a citizen of the country at large.
opie jeanne
@Brachiator:
“…But here we’re more talking about the terms that gabachos use, than how people self-identify…”
True. We had a foreign exchange student from Brazil who insisted he was neither Hispanic nor Latino, and he was very uncomfortable around what he called “Mechicans”. The neighbor across the street was born in Venezuela and someone suggested we should get them together because some white people are idiots and think that every country in South America is the same. Both held the other’s country in contempt and made that obvious when they were introduced at a neighborhood party.
pragmatism
@Mnemosyne: Yup I agree.
@steve: easy stevesy. Brachiator and I are both opining.
AxelFoley
@Clime Acts:
Fuck you, too, asshole.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Brachiator: Yes, because as I found out the hard way at my second restaurant job many years ago, you can tell a Mexican his mom is a whore all night long, but imply he’s even a smidge Indian and you’re going to get your ass beat real nice.
That’s a mistake I didn’t make again. Ouch.
pragmatism
@Brachiator: lol @ gabachos. The ap style book gives Latino a broader definition fwiw
Amir Khalid
@Brachiator:
True. Many people simplify their ethnic/racial ancestry for various reasons. Because of an unspoken racism in their society, or in themselves; or because, in many countries, when you fill in the forms you have to declare yourself to be some race or other and the box you’d like to check isn’t provided.
I haven’t seen a picture of George Zimmerman’s mother so far. If she’s, say, part white part native Peruvian, and her husband is white, then I’d definitely consider George white.
Brachiator
@opie jeanne:
Well, this makes some sense, since Brazilians are Portuguese (along with other ethnicities). Hispanic would not make logical sense, and Latino would be insufficient.
And of course, Brazil has its own complicated history with ethnicity.
Funny stuff about your neighbor thinking that someone from Venezuela and someone from Brazil would be bosom buddies just because they were both from South America.
Culture of Truth
If there was any doubt left, Zimmerman’s story, if not his defense, is that he shot TM by mistake. Not that the gun went off by accident, but that he mistook TM for an older, armed, dangerous, burglar. So he shot him.
That’s his real defense, not self-defense. He wants to tilt the axis back toward stupid and away from evil.
But it does futher my concern that America may full of really, dangerously, stupid people.
Shari
@opie jeanne:
Exactly my point. My kids have had multiple stitches on their heads over the years. I’ve had a couple of head wounds that required stitches. Each one was bleeding like it would never stop.
The wounds on Zimmerman’s head are superficial at best. He didn’t even get treated by the paramedics.
Culture of Truth
@General Stuck: There you go, throwing white people under the bus…. :)
gwangung
@Culture of Truth:
Well, he’s stupid AND evil. His statement today are contradicted by the 911 transcript.
Brachiator
@Svensker:
Of course, none of these questions have anything to do with the upcoming trial.
The cops delay in notifying the family might be a tangential issue, insofar as it relates to the police investigation, and any evidence from that investigation.
And we cannot get rid of stand your ground laws because the gun lobby is too strong, and are getting an extra boost from conservatives who want to live in fear of The Other.
Jason
@gwangung: The prosecution has alleged that Zimmerman changed his story several times during the interview process. The “did not know how old he was” and “did not know if he was armed or not” may be allusions to an earlier or later version of Zimmerman’s story that hasn’t been leaked. We may be surprised by Zimmerman’s eventual defense.
4tehlulz
Today just affirmed in my mind that GZim wants to set Florida on fire before he goes to jail. His lawyer apparently is more than OK with helping him light the match.
gwangung
@Jason: His lawyer might be surprised as well.
(And, yeah….I knew he changed his story at least once).
(For all that, there are folks who are convinced that ALL of Zimmerman’s statements are true and supported by the evidence).
TenguPhule
Of course you know he’s going to lie. Often and Repeatedly.
Town
People have been asking if Obama is “black enough” since 2007.
asiangrrlMN
Cole, I had the exact same reaction to Zimmerman’s statement. What a self-serving piece of shit he is. In this case, saying nothing really would have been better.
Groucho48
The prosecutor needs to get Zimmerman’s brother and dad on the stand and have them testify as to what Zimmerman told them about the encounter. No jury is going to believe a 17 year old kid all alone at night in a strange neighborhood is going to act like they claim he acted. And, if they don’t believe his story, he is toast.
Mayken
@Brachiator: Yeah my grandfather had a Dutch father and an Indonesian mother and insisted till his dying day he was a white Dutch man. Well, guess that was his right to say but seriously, Opa was darker than his mother… But Omi insisted she was Dutch too so I guess I cannot blame the guy.
So yeah internalized racsism and “colorism” for lack of a better term has been with us for ages.
I don’t think it is derailing in this instance to discuss Zimmerman’s possible identy as a POC
Clime Acts
@Catsy:
Cause Catsy is a board certified physician, don’t ya know?
Did you also diagnose Terri Schiavo?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Steve:
I think it started as a scripted moment, until Zimmerman immediately veered off course with his ‘apology’. His attorney didn’t come across as all that pleased about it when questioned after the hearing. As far as the blood in the pic of his head, I’ve had more blood on my arm from playing rough with a rowdy kitten/cat.
Blood is like engine oil, a little leak can make a huge looking puddle. The scalp has lots of capillaries and it wouldn’t take much of a scrape/cut to make it bleed like that up there.
jncc
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Well that picture with blood on his head is obviously fake.
We’ve all seen the video of him getting out of the police car at the station and there was no blood on his head in that video.
Ben Franklin
@jncc:
We’ve all seen the video of him getting out of the police car at the station and there was no blood on his head in that video.
Even minor head wounds bleed like an SOB. I think there was evidence he was cleaned up prior to returning to police hdqtrs.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@jncc:
You really are full of shit, aren’t you? Keep playing the ‘victim’ winger, it’s all you know.
@Ben Franklin:
Yes, he was cleaned up by EMTs in the back of the cop car. That he didn’t need transportation to the hospital for observation of a possible concussion or exam for neck injury, stitches or even bandages, tells me all I need to know about his injuries.
They were minor and IMO, possibly self-inflicted once he realized that he killed an innocent kid. If that asshole had a tiny bit of self-awareness, he would have immediately realized that murdering the kid was going to ruin his life.
I’m interested to see if the injuries are consistent with someone having their head slammed against a concrete sidewalk to the point of, as his brother claimed, ‘leaving him in diapers and having to be spoon fed for the rest of his life’.
IMO, Zimmerman is full of shit, he murdered a kid and is trying to save his ass and get away with it by blaming it all on the victim. What’s the real horror is that the police and prosecutors were going to let him do so. I just hope that the jury comes to the same conclusions.
Jncc
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I stand corrected. I had assumed that somebody had just photochopped that photo, but your idea, that Zimmerman cut his own head to create a cover story makes perfect sense.
Since the police were supposedly on the scene within a couple of minutes of the shooting and since Zimmerman was being watched by witnesses after the shooting, I can only assume that the police are in on this, too. They let him sit in their car and cut his head before the paramedics got there. I definitely think you are on to something here.
Jncc
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I stand corrected. I had assumed that somebody had just photochopped that photo, but your idea, that Zimmerman cut his own head to create a cover story makes perfect sense.
Since the police were supposedly on the scene within a couple of minutes of the shooting and since Zimmerman was being watched by witnesses after the shooting, I can only assume that the police are in on this, too. They let him sit in their car and cut his head before the paramedics got there. I definitely think you are on to something here.
Hell, I bet it was the police’s idea for him to cut himself!
Gwangung
People? Or just white people?
Ben Franklin
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Everything is clear as mud. GZ’s defense is that he was in fear of his life, and to that I respond;
Fist; Meet Gun. I want to see the Coroners report. The Medical Forensics will tell a story that, through all this confusion, will probably provide some clarity.
SiubhanDuinne
@Redshift:
Fixt.
gaz
@Ben Franklin:
co-signed
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Jncc:
You can believe that all you want, I’ll wait for the forensics. All I did was to mention it as a possibility, one of many.
Your game is lame d00d.
@Ben Franklin:
I agree, that’s why I’m waiting for the report. Regardless of that, I still think of this as a murder. He acted with reckless disregard and the result of that was the death of an innocent kid.
IMO, that’s murder. Everything else is how he took it to that point and almost got away with it.
Mnemosyne
@Redshift:
I grew up in the Chicago suburbs in the 1970s and 1980s and most Spanish-speaking people were Puerto Rican. When I first moved to Los Angeles, I had a really hard time understanding anyone who spoke English with a “Spanish” accent because the Puerto Rican and Mexican/Central American accents are very different.
xian
@WWStBreitbartD: it’s interesting how right-wing trolls seem all het up about this case
xian
@AxelFoley: hey maybe trayvon liked being hunted and killed, the way clime acts speculated that the kid that penn state coach raped may have liked it too