The marine who ran his mouth on Facebook will be discharged:
A sergeant will be discharged for criticizing President Barack Obama on Facebook in a case that called into question the Pentagon’s policies about social media and its limits on the speech of active duty military personnel, the Marine Corps said Wednesday.
Sgt. Gary Stein will get an other-than-honorable discharge and lose most of his benefits for violating the policies, the Corps said.
The San Diego-area Marine who has served nearly 10 years in the Corps said he was disappointed by the decision. He has argued that he was exercising his free-speech rights.
“I love the Marine Corps, I love my job. I wish it wouldn’t have gone this way. I’m having a hard time seeing how 15 words on Facebook could have ruined my nine-year career,” he told The Associated Press.
Two quick things- It wasn’t the number of words, Sgt. Stein. It was what you said.
And if you had just taken it down and seemed apologetic and not recalcitrant, they probably would have slapped you on the wrist and moved on. But you didn’t:
At the hearing this month at Camp Pendleton, Torresala argued that Stein’s behavior repeatedly violated Pentagon policy and should be dismissed after he ignored warnings from his superiors about his postings.
You fought the law, and guess what?
Larryb
John, you probably meant “contrite”. Recalcitrant is the other thing.
Calouste
Hmm, career in the Marines with not that many perspectives or wingnut welfare darling? Choices, choices.
RedKitten
Cue the right-wing screeching about liberal oppression of free speech in 3…2…1….
cathyx
Sheesh, John, I can’t keep up with all your posts today, although that’s a good problem to have.
kdaug
Any wonder that the military is the only institution left in America that anyone has any faith in? Tepid, provisional faith, but still.
JGabriel
John Cole:
EDITING ALERT: Uh, John? “Recalcitrant” means “stubborn, having an uncooperative attitude toward authority.” Did you maybe mean to write “apologetic and not recalcitrant”?
ETA: Oops, Larryb got there first. I’m a slow typist. Didn’t mean to pile on.
.
TBogg
Next up on Hannity & Stein: I Served Under A Communist. A True Story.
Raven
Xin Loi jackass. He oughta be in the fuckin brig.
cathyx
I thought you didn’t have free speech rights when you’re in the military.
Cassidy
@Raven: Oh no… The OTH is a future killer. No clearance, ever, so no sweet MIC job. No GI Bill, no chance of joining the Reserves and getting any kind of retirement. He got what we used to call the “big green weenie”. And he deserves every bit of it.
dedc79
I’m sure people will use this as an opportunity to bash Obama, but the fact is that federal courts have long recognized that members of the armed services don’t have the same free speech protections as the general public.
MosesZD
I was in the military. They teach you in boot camp that you may not say thing like that without consequence. And, believe me, he’s not the first I’ve seen run afoul of saying something asnine about a sitting President and found him/her self in trouble.
And that trouble goes all the way from privates to generals. So it’s not even a double-standard thing.
For those who don’t know, btw, when you join the military, you (essentially) suspend most of your Constitutional rights when it comes to ‘free speech’ within the aspects of the military, its Chain of Command and general decorum. You just can’t say any damn thing that comes to mind. They can, and will, punish you. And the Supreme Court says that’s perfectly fine. And has for a very long time.
Cassidy
@cathyx: We have free speech. But we also have penalties in how we exercise tht right.
Chris
@kdaug:
The reason the military is the only institution anyone has any faith in is because most of their operations are done overseas. They fuck up as much as any other government agency, but when they do, the people who suffer are either Filthy Foreign Savages or members of the military themselves.
If there job was directed at the average American in the same way as the IRS or the police, you can bet a lot less people would have faith in it.
MosesZD
@RedKitten:
Actually, not. He put up a post at RedState and they give him an ass-reaming. As did Erickson.
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/04/11/i-have-no-sympathy-for-gary-stein/
I don’t either. Even if I were a conservative I wouldn’t have. I was in the military. I know how it works. You’re not allowed to say the stupid things he said.
General Stuck
Another Obama critic silenced by the Obot Man.
ringing troll bell, come hither and too.
Burnspbesq
This guy’s only problem is that he joined the wrong branch. Wing nuts and fundies are welcome in the Air Force.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
The other reason people still have some faith in them is because they’re very authoritarian, so the right wing hasn’t spent the past 40 years attacking them.
Cassidy
@Burnspbesq: You don’t get the chance to kill brown people in the AF. At least not as much.
Cromagnon
@cathyx:
You have limited free speech rights. You don’t have the right to publicly criticize your Chain-of-Command, which POTUS is at the top of. You also don’t have the right to represent yourself as a member of the Military while advocating any sort of political position
On a separate note… Stein served for 10 years and was only and E5? He wouldn’t of been in much longer anyway. In the military its move-up or move-out
Forum Transmitted Disease
The reporting on this enrages me.
That is not what happened. He did not “criticize”. He stated explicitly that he would not follow Obama’s orders. He urged other members of the armed forces to do the same.
Signed those away when he signed up, a fact that both he and his lawyer know quite well, although that has not stopped them from repeatedly making this claim in public.
He was told since 2010 to take it down and that would be the end of it. He refused to do so multiple times.
What the fuck else were they supposed to do? Given the nature of the offense, he literally got the lightest possible sentence.
gaz
@MosesZD:
This.
Anyone that’s having trouble with this – it may help to think of it as though it were a “moral turpitude” clause in a private contract. As anyone who’s seen those much can tell you, they dictate all sorts of behavior and speech – just replace moral turpitude with “whatever the fuck conduct we want to hang over your head” and it reads more accurately. For better or worse, there’s nothing illegal or unconstitutional about it. When you sign on, you agree to it. It’s about conduct.
Burnspbesq
OT: everyone who picked Bayern and Chelsea to be in the Champions League final, raise your hand.
Everyone who just raised their hand is a liar.
PeakVT
Stein was getting advice from one Gary Kreep of USJF, a right-wing organization of some kind. Don’t know anything about Kreep, but I certainly can speculate that he might not have had his client’s best interest solely in mind.
eemom
relatedly, I just saw a link somewhere that said the vast majority of political donations by military people goes to Ron Paul.
Which at least makes some semblance of sense.
Cromagnon
@Chris:
And what branch did you serve in to gain such wise insight?
Nutella
I wasn’t sure what to think about this until I saw in the link what the guy actually posted.
“Screw Obama and I will not follow all orders from him.”
That’s not a political statement, it’s him saying he refuses to follow the military chain of command.
So, yeah, kicking him out was the right thing to do.
Ronnie P
@Burnspbesq:
Or didn’t know the outcome of today’s match because they wanted to watch the replay after work and wrongly assumed this is the last thread in which there would be a spoiler.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Burnspbesq: You’re full of shit
mostall of the time, but never more so than with this post. I’ve been working with the all branches for a decade, but it’s been mostly Air Force, all over this country, pretty much every base they have. Officers, enlisted, all of it. Number of fundies I have met: zero. Assholes? Yeah, they’re out there, but frankly I meet more on the civilian side of things. And I can’t set foot in a civilian office without meeting fundies.I hope you know more about tax law than you do about the military, otherwise your clients are fucked.
burnspbesq
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Really. Explain this.
http://archive.truthout.org/underground-group-cadets-say-air-force-academy-controlled-evangelicals63726
Cromagnon
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
He read it on the internets, so it must be true
Hungry Joe
The President isn’t my Commander in Chief; he can’t so much as order me to pick a candy wrapper up off the ground. But he is every single soldier, sailor, and Marine’s Commander in Chief, and you can’t go around saying/posting Stein-like crap about a superior officer and not expect to get cashiered.
JWL
There’s a well known (if apocryphal) WW2 story involving a Marine and FDR. Trading insults with a closed-in enemy infantry, a Japanese soldier shouted, “Roosevelt eats shit!”. To which a politically opinionated Marine responded, “You’re damn right he does!”.
There were no repercussions, of course.
Sgt. Stein knew the score, but stupidly decided to press his luck. He punched his own ticket, and has no business now bitching about the destination. He left the Corps no choice.
Roger Moore
@Hungry Joe:
Sure he can order you to pick a candy wrapper up off the ground. So can I. You’re just under no obligation to obey./pedant
Soonergrunt
@cathyx: You do, but they are very, very restricted.
He would’ve been fine if he hadn’t explicitly linked his military status to his political beliefs nor went on several web forums specifically geared towards various military specialties and bragged about his behavior. For two years running.
Teddy's Person
When, oh when, are people going to get that Facebook and Twitter are not private sites of conversation where you can express every thought that stomps through your brain??? They are public and seem very easy to monitor.
Cato
When you’re in the military, you play by different rules, this was the appropriate response.
ChrisNYC
@eemom: Not any more. Last month Obama got $36K from people in the military. Paul got $17K. R gets like $7K.
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2012/04/military-turns-from-paul-to-obama-i.html
meander
I predict he’ll be riding the Right Wing gravy train in no time at all, making paid appearances on talk radio, perhaps writing a book about his experience, and so forth. “Coming up on Hannity, the marine martyr speaks out…”
Or maybe one of the Koch think tanks needs a military expert “fellow.”
Steeplejack
@Burnspbesq:
Those were two strange but exciting games. Got to see most of them both. Although it looks like it will be a battle of the subs, since both Chealsea and Bayern will have so many starters sitting out.
Soonergrunt
@eemom: That would be the vast majority of right-wing donations. President Obama is doing pretty well with military personnel.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cromagnon: Well, I will say, based on my time in the army, that the military screws up as much as anyone else in government service. From my experience in the private sector, I would also say government workers screw up no more often than private sector workers – probably less. Anecdote, not data; YMMV.
shortstop
What is an “other-than-honorable discharge”? I apparently missed the introduction of this category of booting.
shortstop
@ChrisNYC: I have no idea how much Obama or anyone else got from the military, but a point of clarification: If your contributions to a candidate total less than $200, they will not show up on Open Secrets or any other political contribution tracking mechanism.
MikeJ
@shortstop: I had heard of it, but didn’t really know much about it.
In addition to not getting benefits, he may have to give back his enlistment bonus and they can discharge him anywhere and he’ll have to pay for his own bus ticket home.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/aadischarge1.htm
Ben Cisco
@Burnspbesq: They may be now, but not during my time. Plenty of people ran afoul of the “you’re here to defend free speech, not exercise it” bit, and the disparaged Presidents included Reagan, Bush the elder, and Clinton. The big green weenie played no favorites.
As for soon-to-be-civilian Stein, fuck ‘im. He played the dumbass, now he has to pay the piper. I am surprised that Infinite Erickson and the rest of the Scooby Gang placed principle over a chance to ream POTUS. Good on them, I guess.
AA+ Bonds
If he wanted to run his mouth he shouldn’t have joined the baby killers
as Raven put it in a previous thread, xin loi motherfucker
General Stuck
Sgt Stein may have fallen from societies grace with a bad conduct discharge, but he is primo tea tard material and can write his ticket on the wingnut rubber chicken circuit.
Omnes Omnibus
@shortstop: Wikipedia primer on discharges.
NCSteve
@cathyx: You don’t. However, apparently this asswipe thought that didn’t apply unless the CIC was white.
geg6
@shortstop:
It means that you are fucked. No sweet veteran bennies. No retirement. No chance of any job that requires background checks. No nothing. It’s like the little cloud of dirt that always followed Pigpen around in the old Peanuts comics.
Cassidy
@shortstop: It’s the middle: dishonorable, bad conduct, other than honorable, general, honorable. Honorable is easiest to get if you show up to work on time, most of the time, in the right uniform. It takes effort to get an OTH and below.
chopper
OTOH, you can’t spell ‘dishonorable’ without ‘honorable’.
Soonergrunt
@shortstop: There are five categories of discharge.
This article gives a very good run down.
With respect to Sgt. Stein:
Litlebritdifrnt
@PeakVT:
Kreep is second only to Orly Taitz in the birfer lawyer hierarchy. In other words a grade A fucking moron. Stein should have got himself a real lawyer, if he had he might have managed to get something a little better than “OTH” which basically means he is fucked for life. Moron.
Steve in DC
You talk shit about the chain of command in private. Bashing idiotic civilian superiors, hell all superiors, is a time honored military traditions. Pummeling Democratic presidents is very popular as well. Just don’t do it in public.
Soonergrunt
@geg6: That’s pretty much it. I used to have a buddy who did recruiting for the OK National Guard. He used to tell me that some crimes, including some class ‘c’ felonies, were not bars to enlistment in the National Guard, but that the wrong Reenlistment Eligibility code would completely fuck a guy.
Michael Demmons
I’m guessing he was thinking $$ and how much he will inevitably make in radio or as a paid FoxNews analyst. Beats military pensions!
Raven
@Soonergrunt: The judge gave me my choice, Charlie Town or the big green machine. . .”get on the damn bus on your 17th” he said.
Bokonon
This decision will be another reason for the political right to claim the TYRANNY of the Obama administration … right up there with appointing “czars” and such.
But all that outrage will be conveniently forgotten as soon as a Republican is safely elected president again. Then, suddenly, it will abruptly become disloyal, and maybe even treasonous, for anyone to say anything critical of the Commander in Chief … let alone uniformed members of the armed services.
I think this is a pretty safe prediction.
Litlebritdifrnt
@Steve in DC:
Perhaps Stein can join up with Terry Lakin and go on a nationwide “Dumb and Dumber” speaking tour.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@geg6: HA!
AA+ Bonds
@Steve in DC:
This is exactly why capitalism must die
Raven
@AA+ Bonds: I guess you want someone to say “what’s with the baby killer shit, asshole”?
GxB
@geg6: Ahh, but he has a line on the sweetest gig around… Wingnut Welfare. I’m sure his app will be fast tracked.
AA+ Bonds
@Raven:
It’s just what I call Marines, like how I call cops “pigs” when my uncle isn’t around
Steve in DC
@AA+ Bonds
I don’t see what capitalism has to do with the military’s love of trash talk.
patrick II
@Steve in DC:
and don’t do it in front of reporters from Rolling Stone.
AA+ Bonds
@Steve in DC:
trash talk is fine as long as they are frightened to death of their ‘idiotic civilian superiors’
Raven
@AA+ Bonds: Got it, eat the apple and fuck the corps!
AA+ Bonds
@Raven:
heh, 69
AA+ Bonds
Seriously though, I understand it to be a reference to all the babies the Marines killed in Vietnam and other imperialist wars
Amir Khalid
The word “recalcitrant” (larryb is quite right, the word you want is “contrite”) brings back memories: it was once the focus of an international incident between Australia and Malaysia in the mid-1990s.
Y’see, our PM Dr Mahathir Mohamed — world-famous for his my-way-or-the-highway leadership style and the humongous chip on his shoulder — decided to blow off the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation heads of government summit. The host that year, Aussie PM Paul Keating, responded by calling Dr M, well, the R-word.
Naturally, this activated the chip on Dr M’s shoulder. There was tut-tutting in the Malaysian media (then, as now, dominated by state or ruling-coalition business proxies) about Keating’s impertinence, their High Commissioner got the expected earful, there was speculation about possible penalties that would affect Australian companies doing business here. The Aussie business people here took the speculation seriously enough to take out ads in Malaysian papers (mine included) offering “a full and unreserved apology” for what Keating had said.
Eventually Dr M forgot what he was mad at Australia for, and nothing happened. But I suspect this bit of pettiness may have had something to do with Bill Clinton not coming here for the next APEC summit in 1998. (He sent Al Gore, and that’s a whole nother story.)
John Cole
@Larryb:
I meant “not” recalcitrant. Fixed.
PurpleGirl
@Litlebritdifrnt: It’s possible he talked a “sane” lawyer (knowing military rules and regulations) who told him what to do along the lines of a “deal” (if possible in the military). But he wanted someone who sided with him and his crap comments and to fight the charges. And so now, Sgt. Stein will feel the full brunt of the military on his ass.
Eric U.
I wonder how much traction this guy’s story will have with the wingnut welfare crowd. Some wingnuts don’t respect the military much, but a lot of them know this isn’t the way someone in the military is supposed to act. I guess employers have stopped asking for discharge papers, but back in the day this would have presented real problems for him even with menial jobs.
GxB
I guess it’s pretty standard for moderation on your first post, but let me use my second to say FYWP. Well that and “Hey all, long lurker second time poster.”
Steve in DC
@Eric U.
Nobody asks for discharge papers all that often. It really only comes up for equal opportunity items and diversity issues. However your discharge status will come up in any sort of background investigation.
Besides, the real “bonus” of being in the military is moving out and into other government work, which can’t hire dishonorables, so he’s boned anyways.
Brachiator
@Eric U.:
A lot of these people are stuck in a cognitive dissonant quagmire. They want to insist that Obama is not legitimately the president. But when boneheads like this serviceman insist on this nonsense and gets spanked by reality, many of these wingnuts will not know how to react.
LongHairedWeirdo
Honestly, I’m not that surprised. The parody posters sound edgy. A statement that he would not follow orders (doesn’t matter that he later clarified refusal to follow unlawful orders) and he pretty much has to be made into an example.
I sympathize a *tiny* bit here; I don’t want soldiers silenced. And the posters should have been one of those “you *must not* let anyone know you’re a Marine when pulling that shit,” and the unofficial reason for his punishment should have been “being stupid in uniform”, but he should have kept his benefits.
But any suggestion of insubordination – even *talking* about it, as a hypothetical – is really bad news, and I’m surprised a ten year man didn’t have that instinctively ingrained.
LongHairedWeirdo
@LongHairedWeirdo:
Um. I think of all members of the armed forces as “soldiers” as a kind of shorthand. I know it’s not the proper term for a Marine. (Not that this will stop the inevitable flood of corrections if any member of the USMC show up :-) .)
The Other Chuck
@gaz:
I don’t see it at all as equivalent to a “moral terpitude” clause. There really isn’t a need to find equivalences when it comes to the military, because we have a couple thousand years of recorded history that shows that it is just *not* a good idea to allow the military any sort of political independence. People who have all the guns have to give up certain rights, and that’s just the way it is.
Anyway, this went well beyond expressing political views: Stein was actually calling for others to disobey orders. He should be in Leavenworth.
Randy P
Maybe this point has already been made, but regarding the “free speech rights”, how did he get as far as Sergeant without understanding the UCMJ trumps the Constitution?
Raven
@LongHairedWeirdo: Marine’s are Soldiers.
shortstop
@LongHairedWeirdo:
Um, he didn’t make a mistake. He was purposely pushing the system to make some sort of idiotic point. As others have explained, he had more than one chance to back away from this, and he didn’t.
Thanks for the discharge info, y’all. Most interesting.
Soonergrunt
@Randy P: The UCMJ doesn’t trump the Constitution. Please tell me you’re doing parody here.
The first amendment right to freedom of speech is not, and never has been absolute. There is nothing with UCMJ trumping the Constitution. There is everything about the UCMJ supporting and framed by the fact that there are no absolute rights in our society.
Raven
@Randy P: Being in the military is no guarantee that someone is not a dumbass motherfucker.
Soonergrunt
@Raven: I just joined up because there was no other realistic option. It was either that or try to make assistant manager at Pizza Hut.
@Raven: The dumbest and the smartest guys I ever knew were Infantrymen.
The Sailor
They gave him 2 years to retract it, and he chose to double down, no doubt because the xian wrongwingers were encouraging him with illegal legal advice.
It’s a pattern; murder abortion doctors, plant bombs, we’ll protect you with our awesome legal skillz … and disavow all knowledge of you when it becomes too hot.
Raven
@Soonergrunt: There ya go. Having been in the ammo platoon in a 105mm outfit I was not exactly surrounded by mensa members. However, I must say, that in my time there were plenty of guys (see project 100,000) who were educationally disadvantaged but not dumb at all.
Cassidy
@Raven: Foe the Marines some credit. Someone has to guard the chow and be follow on forces. :)
@LongHairedWeirdo: He absolutely should not keep his benefits. If I can go to war when Bush sent us and keep my mouth shut about it, this bonehead can keep his yap shut about Obama.
Raven
@Soonergrunt: Ever peek in on Alex at Army of Dude? He’s moved on to that VA blog but he is a gifted writer and groundpounder.
Randy P
@Soonergrunt:
Look, I know you’ve served and I’m just a civilian schmuck. Worse, a contractor. But I’m pretty sure that very principle has been tested. Certainly in this case. The First Amendment gives him the right to say anything he wants about his superiors; the UCMJ restricts his rights to do so. If the military restrictions on his speech DON’T trump his Constitutional rights to free speech, then how is there a problem?
Cassidy
How the hell did my iPhone change “give” to “foe”?
rikyrah
the President of the United States is the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF.
there are some things that are ‘ interpreted’ from the Constitution.
THIS is not one of them.
THIS is explicitly said in the Constitution.
WHEN you join the military, you agree to follow a code of conduct.
IF you decide to break that code of conduct…accept the consequences of your actions.
shortstop
@Cassidy: It’s not as smart as its name would imply. The other day I was distracted typing “mozzarella” and wound up with “mizzensail.” That was too good to delete, so I rewrote my sentence for context.
Raven
@rikyrah: The code of conduct is about being captured an enemy force.
“The Code of Conduct (CoC) is the legal guide for the behavior of military members who are captured by hostile forces. “
Cassidy
@Raven: I think he meant a generic code of conduct. I’m not sure it’s common knowledge that we have a “Code of Conduct” as well. An acronyms. Lots of acronyms.
Steve in DC
This isn’t about the first amendment vs the UCMJ. In the military you can say and do whatever you want, just not in uniform.
You can trash the CIC all you want, hell everybody does it constantly. People are constantly grumbling about dumb ass officers giving them dumbass orders. Their civilian bosses being full on retards who don’t know what’s going on and playing politics with their lives. It’s not going to get you in trouble.
Hell, you can walk in front of the White House and say the president is worse than Hitler and punches puppies, nobody will care.
What you can’t do is spout off to civilians while in uniform. Because the military is not a political organization and has no official political affiliation, and while in uniform you are not speaking for yourself, you’re speaking for the military.
And even if you do something stupid in uniform, usually they’ll just ask you to retract it and tell you to stop being stupid. You really only get in trouble if you refuse and decide to double down on it.
Soonergrunt
@Raven: I was turned on the Alex after the whole Rush Limbaugh “phoney soldiers” thing.
@Randy P: The UCMJ does not trump the Constitution. In fact, the authority for the UCMJ IS the Constitution. And freedom of speech is not absolute. Parts of the UCMJ get declared unconstitutional all the time, and as a result become legal nullities until Congress fixes them. But the prohibition against political speech (which is not actually in the UCMJ, but in DoD and service regs, and supported by UCMJ) has been challenged time and time again, and has never been deemed unconstitutional.
This isn’t even a matter under that. It’s a matter of a service member not obeying the orders of his superiors and engaging in conduct that brings the service into disrepute. They didn’t prosecute him, even though they could have done so under Article 134. They fired him.
This really isn’t that much different than being fired for cause for breaking the rules your employer sets. Go to a political rally and declare that as an employee of XYZ Widgets, Incorporated, you think that such and such should happen and that So and So should be President, like he did. Do it in front of TV cameras, like he did. You won’t get the multiple warnings that he got. You’ll be terminated, and escorted off the property, with little to no recourse. He got a hell of a lot more consideration from his employer than you’ll get from yours, I guarantee you.
Craigo
@Randy P: Believe it or not, the UCMJ is not in conflict with the First Amendment here. The Supreme Court requires that content-based speech restrictions be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest. The Marines would have no problem meeting that standard here, as preserving the chain of command and civilian authority are both highly compelling interests.
And this is not nearly as restrictive as they could have been – no prior restraint, no court martial, notice, hearing, and opportunity for remediation provided.
gaz
@The Other Chuck:
Technically you’re right, it isn’t. I said “it may help to think of it as”, which is what I meant. Not everybody understands military rules. I do a little, being from a military family, but not a lot, having never served in the armed forces myself. I have however, labored under some fairly restrictive “moral turpitude” clauses while doing consulting work, and they can extend far beyond moral things, and well into general behavior.
Sometimes I believe it’s fair to fudge a precise meaning of something to get the point across, when lacking other means. Although you’ve correctly alluded to history, that’s a history that many people are not aware of. I meant no disrespect of the CoC, nor did I intend anybody to draw any detailed conclusions based on my characterization. Just trying to hit the broad stroke, using the best civilian analogy I could come up with. That said, I readily admit I may have clumsily employed it.
SiubhanDuinne
@GxB:
For
You,
Welcoming
Post
Gwangung
Well, at least until the Roberts Court gets to it.
Gwangung
@GxB: Properly initiated, giving the proper response.
Raven
@Cassidy: Some shit you don’t forget.
gaz
@The Other Chuck: @Steve in DC:
And this is where I must concede your point, The Other Chuck, and Steve in DC, I included you in this spanking, because he basically just pissed in your wheaties, too bud. And yet, I’m sure this is somehow Obama’s fault, amirite?
LongHairedWeirdo
@Cassidy:
Just to clarify: If he’d merely expressed bad opinions of his Commander In Chief – parody movie posters, whatever – I’d expect him to be punished however they punish you when you deserve a good swift kick in the ass, but be allowed to keep his benefits. That’s “Yeah, you have free speech, but you made the Corps look bad.”
However, once he brought up insubordination, even hypothetically, he should have known that he was in deep trouble, and I’m not at all surprised that he got discharged as he did. At that point, I can’t argue he deserves to keep anything.
Steve in DC
Obama’s fault? Obama has ordered some morally nebulous shit. Also the UCMJ allows for, and in fact calls for, refusal to follow unconstitutional orders. You’re pretty much covered there.
What isn’t covered is what you can say as a member of the armed services and where. Since in uniform and in the public square a member of the armed services speaks for them, that’s limited. What you say when not speaking as a member of the armed services isn’t limited though.
Cassidy
@LongHairedWeirdo: I understand and I even understand the sympathy for the lifetime harshness of this punishment, even though I don’t share it. Personally, I have zero sympathy for NCO’s who do shit like this. The moment you pin on stripes you are held to something bigger than you personal anything.
mclaren
You left out the second half of the story.
The marine who ran his mouth will be discharged…and then run for congress in a far-right congressional district, and win.
Say hello to Jeb Bush’s new director of the Department of Homeland Security circa 2020.
Steeplejack
@GxB:
Yeah, you go into moderation on your first post until a front-pager baptizes you and releases you into the
holding pengeneral population. Welcome. Pro tip: stay away from the skinheads over by the monkey bars.Kathy in St. Louis
He’ll be running for Congress, a la Joe the Plumber in no time. He will be a Tea Party darling. I am certain that he was hoping for this decision.
Soonergrunt
@Cassidy:
And this gets to the heart of the matter. This man, Stein, violated the special trust that was reposed in him.
I know that many will not understand this, and most will probably think I’m a bit sappy about it, but this is a betrayal of the highest principles of uniformed service. This man sought and accepted the responsibility of leadership in a time of war and all of the authority that goes with that. One’s service or specialty are irrelevant. Putting on stripes tells the world that junior personnel can look to you to see how to act, and learn by your example what right looks like. It tells senior personnel that you are trustworthy, dependable, and able. There is a reason that the NCO Corps has always, in all four services, been called ‘the backbone’.
This guy got off easier than he deserved, and that’s only because an Admin Separation is quicker than a Court-Martial.
Villago Delenda Est
This dumbshit was told, repeatedly, by his chain of command to take it down or there would be consequences, and he blew them all off.
Marines are not supposed to be THIS fucking stupid.
Doug Gardner
@Ronnie P: Beat me to the punch on this remark. Was going to watch in just a few minutes… Guess I’ll go to bed early instead.
mclaren
@Soonergrunt:
What a load of pseudopatriotic horseshit.
The United States Army today is a bunch of rapists and gang members led by ignorant incompetent corrupt careerists. The only “special trust” reposed in the typical United States army NCO is the “trust” that when he rapes a female enlistee so savagely that she has to have reconstructive surgery on her vagina and anus, he won’t leave behind enough evidence to embarrass his superior officers.
Google the phrase “one third of women in army raped” — if you haven’t eaten dinner yet.
This kind of bogus quasipatriotic bullshit is one of the main reasons why America is degenerating and collapsing. Rapists are rapists and incompetent careerist are incompetent careerists. They’re not “NCOs in whom special trust has been reposed” or “brilliant highly-decorated military leaders.” If they were in the civilian population, both groups would quickly find themselves in prison.
Cassidy
@mclaren: Awwww, how cute. The know nothing shows up to bleat.
GxB
SiubhanDuinne – I like it, there’s almost a Hiaku quality there
Gwangung – and now I see “time” is missing from that howdy quote, so I’m tossing in a “Can I haz a edit??”
Steeplejack – Thanks for the welcome, how long does it take for the delousing powder to work its way out? Oh and one of the skinheads offered me their extra fruit roll-up mommy packed for ’em if I’d hang out. Almost fell for it…
gwangung
@mclaren: Fuck off, oh stupid one.
That was pretty ignorant, even for the 60s.
But don’t worry. The military serves to protect everyone, and even your ignorant ass.
Soonergrunt
Oh, yes. The completely and utterly bullshit claim that 1 in 3 women in the military get raped.
One can just as easily (and people most certainly have) used the same intentionally mangled statistics to claim that 1 in 3 women are raped in college. Or in general life. Or that 1 in 3 women in other countries are raped.
It’s ALL bullshit from intentional data skewing designed to make a very real and very bad problem seem much worse than it actually is.
lacp
I assume this dude is going to join Allen West for a “Military Heroes Screwed by the Islamosexual Kenyan Soshalist” book promotion and speaking tour.
Maude
@Soonergrunt:
The betrayal of trust is so serious. Thank you for bringing this up.
Soonergrunt
@lacp: Which would be hilarious because West resigned his commission during the Bush presidency. Back when we as a country and a government actually believed that those who tortured prisoners shouldn’t wear the uniform.
EDIT–I am, of course, referring to the beginning of the Iraq war, and not later on when Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and their minions sought so desperately to deflect their legal and moral accountability for those crimes and were aided and abetted by the Republican party and the US press.
Personally, I don’t believe that West should have been allowed to resign after an Article 15. I think he should have been court-martial’ed.
Brachiator
@Soonergrunt:
Makes sense. Thanks for this.
Canuckistani Tom
@Soonergrunt:
My Dad (RCN Lt, retired) once said that there is no rule or reg that says that a newly graduated officer has to pay attention to a senior NCO’s suggestion, but he’s a damn fool if he doesn’t at least listen.
Rathskeller
@Burnspbesq: I’ve certainly heard that as well, but the contempt he received at Red State for this act was more from USAF folks.
rea
@Randy P: If the military restrictions on his speech DON’T trump his Constitutional rights to free speech, then how is there a problem?
It’s not a matter of the military restrictions on free speach trumping the Constitution–rather, the Constitution allows military restrictions on speach.
MosesZD
@kdaug:
Only for those who weren’t in it… Those of us who were… Sorry, they’re even more fucked up than your typical Government agencies. They make the IRS look like a model of efficiency and effectiveness.
Hell, we used to run out of bullets. And I was never issued the gasmask I was supposed to have… I still have the little government issue paper tag (required for IG inspections) that says ‘gas mask’ attatched to my old duffle bag kept packed for emergency deployment.
And, yes, that allowed you to pass the IG inspection. You were proving you hadn’t forgotten your gas mask. But rather, they’d never bought you one…
brantl
@Larryb: You must have missed the “not” before recalcitrant, buckwheat.
brantl
@Cassidy: Sure you do, it’s just with bombs, or machine guns on helicopters.
MosesZD
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
You haven’t been paying attention. Fundamentalism is a serious problem in the Air Force. More so than any branch. Though the Army has a lot of it.
Get out more instead of telling people they’re the ones full of shit, when (in fact) you are. Here are some headlines for you:
US Air Force Academy Apologizes For Unconstitutional Email Promoting Extremist Fundamentalist Charity
Air Force Academy Cadets Decide They Must Pretend To Be Fundamentalist Christians
Right-wing fundamentalists proselytize US military
‘Jesus loves nukes’: US Air Force taught the Christian Just War Theory
Christian fundamentalist bigotry reigns at US Air Force Academy (2005)
Group: Cadets pressed to conform on religion
Or how about the Army’s “spiritual fitness” component to the mandatory Comprehensive Soldier Fitness program test, whereby soldiers’ combat-readiness and ability are judged on the basis of their religiosity.
Ignorant appologists like yourself really fuck this country up when you spew out total bullshit out of your pie-hole and we can’t move forward against a serious problem.
twiffer
free speech, yadda, yadda…what-fucking-ever. as far as i’m concerned, it doesn’t matter that he was in the military. there is no fucking job in the world you can have where you can publicly dis your boss and not be fired.
once more, people must be reminded the “free” in free speech is not “free of consequences”.
Cowbelle
@twiffer:
Except front-pager at Balloon Juice!
Soonergrunt
@Cowbelle: Yes. That job. We get to diss the boss. The pay sucks ass, but on a different note, the benefits are fucking atrocious, too. But yes, we can diss the boss.