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You are here: Home / The M Word

The M Word

by @heymistermix.com|  May 20, 20129:33 am| 146 Comments

This post is in: Our Failed Media Experiment

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If you know the rules of political journalism, you know that the Gods become restless unless some poor sap writes a few thousand words on the great faith of each candidate, so all true Americans know that he’s guided by prayer, attends church regularly, and has been helped by his faith through at least one life crisis. Jodi Cantor throws the current sacrifice down the volcano in today’s Times profile of Romney’s religion:

Mr. Romney is quick to uphold rules great and small. During primary debates, when his rivals spoke out of turn or exceeded their allotted time, he would sometimes lecture them. When supporters ask Mr. Romney to sign dollar bills or American flags, he refuses and often gives them a little lesson about why doing so is against the law.

[…]

In church, Mr. Romney frequently spoke about obeying authority, the danger of rationalizing misbehavior and God’s fixed standards. “Most people, if they don’t want to do what God wants them to do, they move what God wants them to do about four feet over,” he once told his congregation, holding out his arms to indicate the distance, Mr. Christensen remembered.

Cantor doesn’t tell us how Romney reconciles moving about a country mile from the truth on a regular basis with “God’s fixed standards”, but perhaps there’s some rule that you can lie to non-Mormons if it advances the Mormon cause. (I seriously wonder if that’s true – it would explain a lot).

Also, too, if you ever wondered whether Mormonism is one of the most patriarchal religions, wonder no more, because God doesn’t move an inch for women. It’s OK for Mitt to tolerate alcohol and tobacco as a governor, but abortion is a no-go. (I think the Times’ fact-checkers missed this.) And there’s a charming story about how Mormons used to forbid working mothers to adopt, and how Mitt helped a family follow that rule by tightening their belt.

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Previous Post: « The (Rainbow) Arc of the Moral Universe
Next Post: Open Thread: Netflix Finds »

Reader Interactions

146Comments

  1. 1.

    Larry

    May 20, 2012 at 9:38 am

    I couldn’t read past the headline. Glad I didn’t.

  2. 2.

    Jeff

    May 20, 2012 at 9:43 am

    How charming. Mitt can add “sanctimonious pr*ck ” to his resume.

  3. 3.

    Stuck in the Funhouse

    May 20, 2012 at 9:47 am

    they move what God wants them to do about four feet over,”

    Romney is in for a lesson. He moves Limbaugh about four feet over, he will still be in the shadow of the lard.

  4. 4.

    beltane

    May 20, 2012 at 9:52 am

    Abortion might be a no-go but it would appear that IVF and the use of rent-a-womb surrogate mothers is OK. This is probably due not to enlightened views towards reproductive medicine so much as it is due to the view that female humans only exist to serve as breeding utensils.

    As to the issue of lying, when you consider that the founder of the Mormon church was one of the great con artists of American history it is no surprise that lying and scamming are not only permissible but almost rise to the level of a sacrament.

  5. 5.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 9:54 am

    perhaps there’s some rule that you can lie to non-Mormons if it advances the Mormon cause.

    Well, Mormons wouldn’t be unique in this regard. The fundies are pretty big on telling whoppers if it’s in the interest of the vile Old Testament asshole they worship.

  6. 6.

    MattF

    May 20, 2012 at 9:54 am

    So, what’s the difference between a sanctimonious pr*ck and a Mormon sanctimonious pr*ck? Looks like Cantor encountered that little riddle but didn’t try to answer it.

  7. 7.

    Alex

    May 20, 2012 at 9:55 am

    There is such a rule sanctioning religious dissimulation within Islam, and it is termed taqiyya. Because I realize it is far more enjoyable to skewer Westernized religions in these parts, it might be advisable to remind ourselves that this is a formalized concept within Islam.

  8. 8.

    maya

    May 20, 2012 at 9:58 am

    but perhaps there’s some rule that you can lie to non-Mormons if it advances the Mormon cause.

    It’s called the Mountain Meadows Memorandum.

  9. 9.

    Stuck in the Funhouse

    May 20, 2012 at 9:59 am

    OT

    President Uppity strikes again
    ,

    “Not long before, after a highly contentious debate within a war cabinet that was riddled with leaks, Mr. Obama had reluctantly decided to order a surge of more than 30,000 troops. The aide told Mr. Obama that he believed military leaders had agreed to the tight schedule to begin withdrawing those troops just 18 months later only because they thought they could persuade an inexperienced president to grant more time if they demanded it.”

    “A year later, when the president and a half-dozen White House aides began to plan for the withdrawal, the generals were cut out entirely. There was no debate, and there were no leaks.”

    Juss words. Juss words.

  10. 10.

    David

    May 20, 2012 at 9:59 am

    The Freepers were very excited by this story:

    Mitt Romney’s Eldest Son Has Twins Via Surrogate

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2880002/posts?q=1&;page=1

    So many weird comments — some equate surrogacy with polygamy.

    Interesting about the adoption thing in light of this announcement because usually the wife has to adopt the baby because the legal mother is the surrogate.

  11. 11.

    Jay in Oregon

    May 20, 2012 at 10:02 am

    A little Googling came up with this:

    http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

    This article claims that it’s acceptable for Mormons (especially missionaries) to lie if telling the truth would harm the image of the Mormon religion, or damage a Mormon’s faith.

    I don’t know anything about the site other than it’s apparently put together by ex-Mormons and other Christians to help Mormons, non-Mormons, and ex-Mormons learn more about the religion. So caveat emptor.

  12. 12.

    Foregone Conclusion

    May 20, 2012 at 10:03 am

    @Alex:

    Only in Shia – the Sunnis think it’s a Shi’ite corruption. And it’s specifically denial of your faith under threat of death or destruction, not for personal advantage or even prostelysation as far as I know.

  13. 13.

    Chris

    May 20, 2012 at 10:03 am

    Cantor doesn’t tell us how Romney reconciles moving about a country mile from the truth on a regular basis with “God’s fixed standards”, but perhaps there’s some rule that you can lie to non-Mormons if it advances the Mormon cause. (I seriously wonder if that’s true – it would explain a lot).

    That would be ironic, because wingnuts claim that the same is true of Muslims (the much maligned concept of “taqiyya,” which actually just means you can lie about your religion or violate it a little to protect yourself in a climate where it’s dangerous to be Muslim, but which the wingnuts use as conclusive proof that We Can Never Trust The Hajjis).

  14. 14.

    scav

    May 20, 2012 at 10:10 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: That’s ringing vague bells from one of the books I read about their stay in Nauvoo. One of the things that riled the neighbors was they’d protect insiders from all outside interference or authority of law. Pig stealing was a particular sore point. And something about whittling. I think they sat and whittled while denying everything. Damn, I have to leave so I can’t scour the bookcase for the reference. It was one I picked up at the Reorg. LDS side of Nauvoo.

  15. 15.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    May 20, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Sorry, I can’t take anyone who is named Cantor seriously. Blame Eric, he ruined it for all the other Cantors. The content of this article only makes it worse for anyone named Cantor.

    In this case, blame Jodi.

  16. 16.

    scav

    May 20, 2012 at 10:12 am

    @scav: Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois, Hohn E. Hallwas Roger D. Launius should be it. Ha.

  17. 17.

    kay

    May 20, 2012 at 10:14 am

    Notice how God always tells them they’re leaders?
    God always wants them in charge Of America.

    Always. God never tells them “really, truth is, you wouldn’t be a great leader. I see you as more of a middle manager. Maybe a shift leader or something? Anyway, no higher than that.”

    I’d re-examine where these self-aggrandizing messages are coming from, see if maybe the source is in the mirror, but that’s just me.

  18. 18.

    the fugitive uterus

    May 20, 2012 at 10:16 am

    @David: i find the whole surrogate thing creepy, i’m sorry. if you can’t have a mini-me then create a 1/2 mini-me. adopt for crying out loud – but i’m sure Mormons have a different view

    interestingly, i heard on Thom Hartmann that one of the reasons their membership is as high as it is is that when somebody leaves and renounces their membership, the church still keeps them on the membership rolls.

  19. 19.

    Jay in Oregon

    May 20, 2012 at 10:16 am

    @maya:

    It’s called the Mountain Meadows Memorandum.

    I didn’t know what you meant by this so I looked it up.

    http://1857massacre.com/

    The Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred on Friday, September 11, 1857 in Mountain Meadows, Utah , several miles south of Enterprise in Washington County along the Old Spanish Trail.
    __
    The victims of the massacre were from Arkansas and were members of the Fancher wagon train. The leader of the wagon train was my 3rd great Uncle Alexander Fancher. The Fancher party was headed to his older brother and my great grandfather John Fancher’s Cattle Ranch 50 miles north of Visalia, California. This was Alexander Fancher’s 3rd trip to California, and he is listed in the 1850 San Diego, Census.
    __
    The settlers were besieged for five days, beginning on Monday, September 7, 1857 and on the 5th day surrendered under a flag of truce to Brigham Young’s adopted son, confidant and Danite, John Doyle Lee. The emigrants knew when the siege started that their attackers were Mormon’s but had very little choice but to surrender since they were very low on supplies.
    __
    [This is from another section of the site]
    __
    The Mormon’s had them surrender all their worldly belongings worth approximately $300,000 for safe passage back to Cedar City , Utah. While en route to Cedar City and within one mile of the siege site a call of “Do your Duty” was given, whereupon all the adult men were shot by Mormons. The women and older children were then killed by Mormons, with the assistance of the Indians. Most of the Mormons were dressed as Indians and had on war paint. According to testimony there were very few Indians that participated in the killing.

  20. 20.

    MattF

    May 20, 2012 at 10:17 am

    @kay: Yup. And combine that with a Daddy problem, it’s textbook material.

  21. 21.

    Svensker

    May 20, 2012 at 10:18 am

    @Stuck in the Funhouse:

    LOL. Win.

  22. 22.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 10:23 am

    Why do you inflict this bullshit on us first thing in the morning?

  23. 23.

    Anya

    May 20, 2012 at 10:24 am

    @Alex: I am not sure which branch of Islam you’re talking about but that’s actually not true. The only time you’re allowed to lie is if you’re saving lives.

  24. 24.

    Svensker

    May 20, 2012 at 10:24 am

    @kay:

    God never tells them “really, truth is, you wouldn’t be a great leader. I see you as more of a middle manager. Maybe a shift leader or something? Anyway, no higher than that.”

    Ha. Reminds me of people who do past life regression and find out that they were princesses or kings or great prophets, etc., etc. Apparently there was a real shortage of kitchen skyvvies and cheese mongers in the olden days.

  25. 25.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 10:25 am

    @kay:

    Always. God never tells them “really, truth is, you wouldn’t be a great leader. I see you as more of a middle manager. Maybe a shift leader or something? Anyway, no higher than that.”

    Even that is sugar coating. A truly honest deity would tell them “Look, you’re in the ‘Do you want fries with that?’ mode forever. Deal with it.”

  26. 26.

    Bill Murray

    May 20, 2012 at 10:27 am

    @the fugitive uterus: many churches do this.

  27. 27.

    the fugitive uterus

    May 20, 2012 at 10:28 am

    let’s examine this, now. why would anyone as filthy rich and as powerful as Mitt put themselves through the obviously excrutiating process of campaigning – he is completely unable to mask his distaste for “the help” – it’s seems like pure agony for him. yet he soldiers on.

    why? because God wants him to be president. the church wants a leader to rule over the US. it’s in the book.

    whether you believe in God or not – want to equate all religions with fairy cults, whatever, non-evangelicals who consider themselves to be Christian, church-going or not, once you peel back the layers (which is not an easy task b/c they are so secretive), MANY will be quite disturbed by what they find. all these people who are hollering, don’t discriminate by religion! who cares? it’s all the same, religion is bullshit.

    well, maybe you don’t care but a LOT of other people who consider themselves Christians, however lapsed they may be, are going to be scared by this shit. and all i’m saying is, it can play a factor in the GE – how much, i don’t know, but it’s not going to help with independents who consider themselves Christians but are not evangelicals.

    he absolutely loathes this entire process but with God’s help all his hard work and suffering will pay off and it will all be worth it!

  28. 28.

    SnarkyShark

    May 20, 2012 at 10:37 am

    but perhaps there’s some rule that you can lie to non-Mormons if it advances the Mormon cause.

    Dude, its not because he’s a Mormon. It’s because he is a right winger. You have to be raised to be a wingnut to understand. 27% of those people have no idea what hypocrisy is because they suffer from authoritarianism. But the others know they are lying so they need cover. Just like the 911 guys were allowed to drink and whore to fool the infidels, the wingnuts are allowed to lie and cheat because they are fighting the greatest enemy of all!

    Dirty Hippies/liberals.

    Therefore anything that confuses or pisses off the left is not only allowed but the source of much guffawing in conversations later about how they showed those sorry LIBS.

    It really is like Jr. High on meth!

  29. 29.

    the fugitive uterus

    May 20, 2012 at 10:38 am

    and no, Harry Reid is not running for president so don’t even go there. if he were, he would be picked apart by the right wing vultures and media because he is a Dem and he would not be considered a serious candidate from the very beginning.

    there would be no sanctimonious discussions about how unfair it is to examine one’s religion in the election process, unless it involves someone named Jeremiah Wright.

  30. 30.

    r€nato

    May 20, 2012 at 10:43 am

    @Jay in Oregon: Yeah, if you want to piss off a devout Mormon, ask them about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

  31. 31.

    myiq2xu

    May 20, 2012 at 10:43 am

    When is the NYT gonna do a story about how Rev. Wright’s Trinity United shaped Barack Obama?

  32. 32.

    the fugitive uterus

    May 20, 2012 at 10:43 am

    and, yes, i had Mormon friends (like, you know, the whole “i have black friends” thing) and they were wonderful to me. i once had a very close friend/coworker who was a Mormon and I worked for a Mormon – one of my niece’s closest friends is a Mormon. so i am not criticizing them as individuals, but the doctrine is another story. But I never completely felt at east with them because I never knew whether or not they thought I was going to hell. but then that could be easily said about some of the Christianists who wear their religion on their sleeves, I knew (and I wasn’t friends with any of them) thought the same thing about me.

    at least i can say, Mormons as individuals, are pretty pleasant people. at the same time, I feel sorry for them.

    oh God, fuck me, i’m talking religion and even with the most cynical and pragmatic of perspectives (think GE) on this subject, i invariably get attacked. i vowed never to do this again, apologies, i forgot meself here for a moment. buh-bye!

  33. 33.

    Baud

    May 20, 2012 at 10:44 am

    @SnarkyShark: Beat me to it.

    @kay: LOL. God apparently only gives career advice to great leaders and psychopaths.

  34. 34.

    Mnemosyne

    May 20, 2012 at 10:46 am

    @myiq2xu:

    When is the NYT gonna do a story about how Rev. Wright’s Trinity United shaped Barack Obama?

    I’m sorry you were in a coma through all of 2008 and never heard of Rev. Wright until now, though it does explain a lot of your comments.

  35. 35.

    KCinDC

    May 20, 2012 at 10:48 am

    During primary debates, when his rivals spoke out of turn or exceeded their allotted time, he would sometimes lecture them. When supporters ask Mr. Romney to sign dollar bills or American flags, he refuses and often gives them a little lesson about why doing so is against the law.

    I think we can all imagine how well this would go over with the media if the lecturer were Gore, Kerry, or Obama. But IOKIYAR.

  36. 36.

    quannlace

    May 20, 2012 at 10:48 am

    they move what God wants them to do about four feet over,” he once told his congregation, holding out his arms to indicate the distance, Mr. Christensen remembered.

    Or maybe he was just describing the latest big fish he caught.

    Man, everytime somebody tries to humanize him (was that the point of this article?) they only paint him more as a humor-less priss. And a hypocrite to boot; you know, on that whole lying thing.

  37. 37.

    kay

    May 20, 2012 at 10:50 am

    @Baud:

    “We prayed on it, and God told us Methodists should lead America. We were (obviously) surprised and disappointed, but that’s what God said”

  38. 38.

    schrodinger's cat

    May 20, 2012 at 10:51 am

    I have been watching BBC’s Sherlock, and I have a question regarding the first story Holmes ever appeared in, The Study in Scarlet. How accurate is Conan Doyle’s depiction of the Mormons?

  39. 39.

    r€nato

    May 20, 2012 at 10:55 am

    @Mnemosyne: I sure hope the GOP chooses to re-fight the 2008 campaign.

  40. 40.

    Southern Beale

    May 20, 2012 at 10:56 am

    In church, Mr. Romney frequently spoke about obeying authority, the danger of rationalizing misbehavior and God’s fixed standards.

    That goes against the founding principles of the Mormon church, though. In the LDS religion, all endowed males are little saints with the same direct line to God as any church authority. This is why there are so many breakaway Mormon sects and so many families who still practice polygamy, even though the church leadership claimed a “new revelation” and banned the practice in the 1890s.

  41. 41.

    WereBear

    May 20, 2012 at 10:58 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: Actually, there is.

    Lying for the Lord

  42. 42.

    Older_Wiser

    May 20, 2012 at 10:59 am

    More on “lying for the lord” by ex-Mormon: http://www.exmormon.org/lying.htm

    An entire sect based on lies, fraud and a con-man plus another massacre: The Circleville Massacre (Utah Historical Quarterly, Winter 1987 pgs 4-21). This describes Mormon militiamen shooting males, while slitting the throats of women and children, identical to the pattern of in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

  43. 43.

    Southern Beale

    May 20, 2012 at 10:59 am

    @beltane:

    But he’s a Mormon, and a Mormon just believes …

  44. 44.

    WereBear

    May 20, 2012 at 11:00 am

    @Jay in Oregon: You beat me to it.

    But yes, it’s important to know that it is codified within in the religion.

  45. 45.

    Southern Beale

    May 20, 2012 at 11:02 am

    I have Fawn Brodie’s “No Man Knows My History” on my stack of books to read, sounds like I’d better get right on it.

  46. 46.

    Hill Dweller

    May 20, 2012 at 11:03 am

    Water is wet. The sun rises in the east. David Gregory is a Republican propagandist. Willard is an inveterate liar.

  47. 47.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 11:03 am

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:

    Sorry, I can’t take anyone who is named Cantor seriously. Blame Eric, he ruined it for all the other Cantors. The content of this article only makes it worse for anyone named Cantor. In this case, blame Jodi.

    Even the great Eddie Cantor? (By the way, Jodi actually spells her last name Kantor. FWIW.)

  48. 48.

    Southern Beale

    May 20, 2012 at 11:06 am

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Yes I was going to say her name is Kantor. Doesn’t it mean to sing? Sounds like a great name to me.

    I come from a long line of rabbis and cantors on my dad’s side of the family so …

  49. 49.

    beltane

    May 20, 2012 at 11:07 am

    @Southern Beale: It is not really contradictory if one accepts that the “authority” who must be obeyed is a matter open to interpretation. Being that God’s allegedly fixed standards are only made known to humans through the agency of human authority figures it makes sense that every Mormon saint can claim to be the disseminator of God’s law. If you regard the LDS as just another MLM scam, as I do, then it seems reasonable that lower ranking members will seek to form breakaway or satellite scams, the only constant seeming to be that women are not fully human and have no role to play other than in bringing forth new members of the scheme.

  50. 50.

    Commenting at Ballon Juice since 1937

    May 20, 2012 at 11:08 am

    @Alex: Last I checked Romney isn’t Muslim and there isn’t a Muslim running for the Presidency. So, cute observation but irrelevant.

  51. 51.

    Sarah, Proud and Tall

    May 20, 2012 at 11:09 am

    @myiq2xu:

    Ah Mikey, we did miss you. Are you still fucking those goats or did one of them finally get jack of it and gore you in the nuts?

  52. 52.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 11:10 am

    @WereBear:

    The Moonies call this “divine deception”.

    This sort of thing is common. Just look at the RCC’s ongoing coverup of their child raping priests, sanctioned from the very peak of the hierarchy.

    The Mormons shouldn’t be singled out for their hypocrisy. It’s a very old feature of organized Christianity, one that the putative founder would not be very pleased with, but then again, he’d be crucified if he actually came back as a mortal threat to the hierarchies.

  53. 53.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 11:11 am

    This is why you don’t let journalists who know nothing about religion write about religion. Nothing but a big, sloppy, wet kiss to (fill in the name of the church here).

  54. 54.

    myiq2xu

    May 20, 2012 at 11:13 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    When did the NYT do a story about it?

  55. 55.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 11:15 am

    @Southern Beale: AFAIK Cantor and Kantor are just variant spellings of the same surname. And yes, it derives from the Latin for singer.

  56. 56.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 11:15 am

    @myiq2xu: fucking Google, how does it work?

  57. 57.

    West of the Cascades

    May 20, 2012 at 11:15 am

    @Jay in Oregon:

    The settlers were besieged for five days, beginning on Monday, September 7, 1857 and on the 5th day surrendered under a flag of truce to Brigham Young’s adopted son, confidant and Danite, John Doyle Lee

    Fun fact: John Doyle Lee, the only person executed for the Mountain Meadows Massacre (20 years after it occurred) was the great-grandfather of Morris and Stewart Udall and great-great-grandfather of current US Senators Mike Lee (Utah), Mark Udall (Colorado) and Tom Udall (New Mexico).

    John D. Lee having 19 wives helped the probability this might happen …

  58. 58.

    myiq2xu

    May 20, 2012 at 11:16 am

    @Sarah, Proud and Tall:

    Do you kiss your kids with that mouth?

  59. 59.

    myiq2xu

    May 20, 2012 at 11:17 am

    @arguingwithsignposts:

    IOW – You got nothing.

  60. 60.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 11:18 am

    @myiq2xu: IOW, nobody here is going to do your homework, dumbass.

  61. 61.

    Cantrip

    May 20, 2012 at 11:19 am

    @myiq2xu: your IQ is 380? I seriously doubt that. Troll.

  62. 62.

    beltane

    May 20, 2012 at 11:20 am

    @arguingwithsignposts: Lazy troll is lazy.

  63. 63.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 11:23 am

    @Cantrip:

    IQ is bullshit, anyway.

  64. 64.

    Sarah, Proud and Tall

    May 20, 2012 at 11:30 am

    @myiq2xu:

    I do. And my grandkiddies. But then I’m an adorable sweary old lady, and you’re a sexist, sociopathic goatfucker.

  65. 65.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 11:33 am

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    My last name (of a well known Scottish Clan) is in a similar situation. There are dozens, it seems, of variant spellings of it. In some 18th century documents, there will be variant spellings of it within the document referring to the same individual. It seems that the rules didn’t get set in something akin to stone until later, when literacy became more common.

  66. 66.

    Shalimar

    May 20, 2012 at 11:36 am

    @kay: “We prayed for guidance and God told us Jonah Goldberg should rule America. And that is when we knew God was just fucking with us the whole time.”

  67. 67.

    Erik Vanderhoff

    May 20, 2012 at 11:40 am

    @Alex:

    Taqiyya is a theological tenet within Shi’a Islam that holds one can lie about being Shi’a or Muslim in order to avoid persecution. It is a controversial tenet and not universally accepted among the Shi’a, let alone Islam as a whole.

    But then, you’re not actually interested in learning things, are you.

  68. 68.

    SBJules

    May 20, 2012 at 11:41 am

    @the fugitive uterus:

    I’m still on the church rolls and I haven’t been active since the 60s. Lying has always been OK with the LDS, especially about the secret temple stuff.

  69. 69.

    Joey Maloney

    May 20, 2012 at 11:42 am

    @Southern Beale: I think in the Congressman’s case the name means “one who cants”, that is, spews dogmatic nonsense.

    Or maybe it just means “one who can’t” full stop.

  70. 70.

    MonkeyBoy

    May 20, 2012 at 11:43 am

    Moral rules developed as an in-group or “tribal” phenomena to promote social cohesion and harmony within the group. As such they really didn’t apply outsiders (other than to class them as outsiders) or to the action of a group member toward an outsider.

    Consider an “absolute” version of “Thou shall not kill” which also meant it was ok to kill outsiders because they didn’t count. Such a rule could also co-exist with in-group capital punishment by the logic that someone who say disrespected their parents or were sexually immoral broke the moral rules of the group and thus became an outsider who it was ok to kill.

    In England the word “outlaw” originally meant somebody who had been ruled outside of the law, and thus enjoyed no legal protection. For an outlaw it was legal for anybody to rob or kill them with no repercussion other than maybe getting a reward.

    An organized crime family often has very a draconian morality about killing, lying, stealing, etc. within the group.

    A somewhat different phenomena in the US can be found in Christian groups who lie to protect their faith when they believe that they are being attacked by lies. The reasoning goes that they are being attacked by Satan since he is the father of lies and in such an existential battle one has to fight fire with fire.

  71. 71.

    Jay in Oregon

    May 20, 2012 at 11:43 am

    I post this only to see how quickly the troll will move the goalposts.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/politics/30obama.html?pagewanted=all

    Found:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=new+york+times+jeremiah+wright+obama&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Xlo&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&sa=X&ei=mxC5T8qIOI3JiQLzkeiSBw&ved=0CAkQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2007%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2008&tbm=

  72. 72.

    Jay C

    May 20, 2012 at 11:43 am

    @myiq2xu:

    Believe me, I’m not going to go link-diving for you, but back in 2008, the NYT (as well as many other media outlets) did a series of articles on Trinity United and Rev. Jeremiah Wright. As I recall, it being the NYT, the coverage was fairly bland: but the big takeaway (nor really that big, or “news” but what the hey) was that far from being the sinkhole of hate-whitey reverse-racism the wingers wanted it to be, TUCC was pretty much a respectable upper-middle-class/professional-class mainline church. Except, of course, for its being a black upper-middle-class/professional-class mainline church. That, it seems, made all the difference: wonder why??

  73. 73.

    Southern Beale

    May 20, 2012 at 11:44 am

    @Joey Maloney:

    Or maybe it just means “one who can’t” full stop.

    LOL. I’ll go with that one …

  74. 74.

    Yutsano

    May 20, 2012 at 11:45 am

    @Sarah, Proud and Tall: Yum. Miss Sarah in a war with a PUMA. I’ll go get the popcorn and juju beads. This could get epic.

  75. 75.

    Mark

    May 20, 2012 at 11:45 am

    @the fugitive uterus: I had some Mormon friends. One of them was a drug dealer with a penchant for hallucinogenics; eventually he turned straight, got married and moved to Utah. The rest are pretty squeaky clean.

    Of course, scratch the surface a little and they start telling you that the earth is only 6000 years old. One of them put me on the RNC’s mailing list (that’s more of a sense of humor than I’d expect from a Mormon.)

  76. 76.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 11:46 am

    @Jay C: now why do you go doing his/her homework?

  77. 77.

    S. cerevisiae

    May 20, 2012 at 11:47 am

    “I think he did a little too much LDS”

    And look! 2008 PUMA troll is back still fighting the lost cause.

  78. 78.

    Nellcote

    May 20, 2012 at 11:48 am

    The same Kantor that wrote that mind reading Obama book? Let me guess, Anne Rmoney doesn’t come off as an angry white woman.

    How did she miss Rmoney’s constant lying? That’s the most distinctive thing about his whole campaign!

  79. 79.

    Steeplejack

    May 20, 2012 at 11:50 am

    @Jay in Oregon:

    Less cluttered article at Wikipedia.

  80. 80.

    Frankensteinbeck

    May 20, 2012 at 11:55 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    Naah, they ain’t Old Testament worshippers. They don’t care jack about the Hebrew Tribe or the covenant. They’re strict Paulites. Infallible word of God, misogyny, ascetic morality, and most importantly the belief in a polarity of absolute good vs. absolute evil, where you worship correctly and are a good person, or you do not worship correctly and are a bad person. No in-betweens.

  81. 81.

    Steeplejack

    May 20, 2012 at 11:58 am

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Probably not very accurate, or only coincidentally so. Conan Doyle was writing “popular” fiction (low-rent, even, at the beginning), and everything served the requirements of the lurid plot. Violent Americans are a staple in the Holmes canon.

  82. 82.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    @Jay C:

    That, it seems, made all the difference: wonder why??

    I’m sure both you and I will eventually figure it out, but gosh, it’s certainly not easy.

    (for the ironing impaired, this is snark)

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 20, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    @Erik Vanderhoff: Equivocation was allowed for Catholics in Protestant countries.* Basically, the doctrine meant that one could add mental reservations or conditions to a question regarding religion or to one’s answer in order to avoid persecution. For example, if asked if one attended a Catholic mass that week, one could add mentally add “at St Peter’s” if it allowed you to say no.**

    * See Antonia Fraser’s book, “Faith and Treason” about Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder plot.

    **I have grossly simplified, so bear that in mind.

  84. 84.

    gocart mozart

    May 20, 2012 at 12:04 pm

    @David:
    This freeper comment is special:

    “The teenage Palin had her baby naturally. The conception was natural, magical, and blessed. The conception was not due to a doctor breaking the egg-wall, injecting the sperm into it, and then implanting it in a rented-womb.

    AI is evil and twisted. Those doing AI(doctors, “parents”, and surrogates) should be in jail.

    Let’s factory produce the babies… just need a sperm, an egg, an a womb!”

  85. 85.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    May 20, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    @Svensker: When the past lives thing comes up around me, I tell people I drowned in a barrel of piss I was carrying to the tannery. Shuts ’em right up.

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 20, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer: And that was one of your better lives, right?

  87. 87.

    eclipse

    May 20, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Regarding Mitt’s little lessons about how it’s illegal to autograph dollar bills, is that even true? My recollection is that it’s only illegal to deface currency with the intention of rendering it unusable, which is why that whole Where’s George dollar tracking stamp is fine. The only thing more annoying than getting lectured by a self-important priss like Mitt would be if Mr. Condescending were dead wrong about the content of his lecture.

  88. 88.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    May 20, 2012 at 12:08 pm

    @myiq2xu: Fuck! Is the shithead really back!?

  89. 89.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    May 20, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Several times I died of a fever right after being born. And then there was malnutrition, random violence on the part of the lord of the manor, plague a couple of times—I must be paying back a lot of karmic debt.

  90. 90.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer: I think we chased it away.

  91. 91.

    Omnes Omnibus

    May 20, 2012 at 12:13 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer: You could be accumulating a big karmic credit which will give you a really great life one of these times. Or as they say, “There’ll be pie in the sky, by and by.”

  92. 92.

    Smiling Mortician

    May 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer: Not anymore. Jay in Oregon did his/her homework so he/she went to find another swimming pool in which to pee.

  93. 93.

    Yutsano

    May 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer: I hope so. This could get fun.

  94. 94.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Maybe he could give a TED talk and rack up a huge Karmic debt.

  95. 95.

    penalcolony

    May 20, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    ” . . . perhaps there’s some rule that you can lie to non-Mormons if it advances the Mormon cause.”

    Their “milk before meat” doctrine permits lying via euphemism to gentiles until they attain a level of Mormonry that allows them to “understand” the “truth.”

    And of course 1 Corinthians 9 19-23 counsels Christians (which Mormons consider themselves to be) to lie whenever doing so will spread the gospel.

  96. 96.

    S. cerevisiae

    May 20, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    @gocart mozart:

    The conception was natural, magical, and blessed.

    Yeah, blessed by the Gallo brothers.

    *rimshot*

  97. 97.

    brendancalling

    May 20, 2012 at 12:19 pm

    interestingly, I just finished up a profile of Clayton Christensen in the New Yorker. Fascinating guy when it comes to business. Totally insane beliefs.

  98. 98.

    Cantrip

    May 20, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yeah, I know :). But sometimes it’s all a troll has to make himself feel superior, because the rest of his life is a twisted, tiny pile of failure and self-loathing.

  99. 99.

    Jewish Steel

    May 20, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    @Yutsano: meatprod!

  100. 100.

    AHH onna Droid

    May 20, 2012 at 12:24 pm

    @Jay in Oregon: well, I can’t speak to outright lies but as a gentile I got it straight from the missionaries who attempted to convert me that creative omissions were a matter of policy. In fact, it’s a slogan: milk before meat.

  101. 101.

    Southern Beale

    May 20, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    Wow, I’m just stunned. A new Vanderbilt poll shows Obama in a virtual tie with Romney here in TENNESSEE. And the state legislature’s loony-bin festival of Craptacular Socialicious Is-That-A-Vagina-In-Your-Pocket-Or-Just-Another-ALEC-Written-Bill has the state Republican Party in big trouble.

    Jesus.

  102. 102.

    Citizen_X

    May 20, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    @Comrade Scrutinizer: I was a slave, and then I was another slave, and then I was a servant–that was a nice change–and then I was a slave again.

  103. 103.

    Nellcote

    May 20, 2012 at 12:29 pm

    @gocart mozart:

    AI is evil and twisted. Those doing AI(doctors, “parents”, and surrogates) should be in jail.

    Jeeze, what’s their beef, at least the kids are white.

  104. 104.

    Yutsano

    May 20, 2012 at 12:31 pm

    @Southern Beale: I love how they hedge on the closeness of the poll by saying if you look at it another way Willard wins easily. My guess is the preachers are still trying to figure out how to sell a Mormon to their congregation before it gets too late to influence even their sheeple minds. It’ll happen though. Better a cult member than one of THOSE in the WH.

  105. 105.

    AHH onna Droid

    May 20, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    So the troll missed MHP on msnbc yesterday morning which is too bad because it was awesome. Loved the new pastor of Trinity. So eloquent.

    Only wish someone would have noticed when they explained that Rev Wright was quoting Jeremiah that he too is a Jeremiah. Prosperity gospel skips that book bc it talks about what wicked fools the Osteens and Creflo Dollar and the saddleback guy and their congregations are.

  106. 106.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 12:33 pm

    BTW, is anyone else getting a hangup with BJ loading because of the paypal image?

  107. 107.

    Smiling Mortician

    May 20, 2012 at 12:36 pm

    @Southern Beale: A close reading of the linked article suggests that, in Tennessee at least, the crazification factor may have slipped from 27% to 22%. Discuss.

  108. 108.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 12:37 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    I remember seeing a Ripley’s “Believe It or Not” column many years ago in which it was asserted that Shakespeare wrote his own name with dozens, if not scores, of variant spellings.

    (And just to forestall the literary conspiracy theorists, no, I don’t believe either “Bacon” or “de Vere” was among the variants!)

  109. 109.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: I think Shakespeare was on the grassy knoll and faked the moon landing. He also piloted one of the planes on 9/11. Does that count?

  110. 110.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    @Jay in Oregon: Wow. Same writer and everything.

  111. 111.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    @arguingwithsignposts: And if you read the sixth letter from the end of every other line in Timon of Athens Act IV Scene 4, you’ll unveil a Playfair code that states unambiguously that Paul is dead.

  112. 112.

    rikyrah

    May 20, 2012 at 12:48 pm

    Willard has five sons.

    at least 3 of them had to use IVF for their wives to get children.

    yet, Willard is for the Personhood Amendments, which would make IVF illegal.

  113. 113.

    satanicpanic

    May 20, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    @kay: I may not believe in god, but if I any fundie ever gives me a hard time about my lack of ambition, I’m saying god told me his plan was for me not to work to hard.

  114. 114.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: But did Courtney kill Kurt?

  115. 115.

    opie jeanne

    May 20, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    @Alex:

    In the Mormon faith it’s called Lying for the Lord and I have encountered it a couple of times. We moved into a neighborhood where a neighbor was a new member of the LDS and who knew very little about her new religion. I asked her how she felt about the men becoming gods and being given their own planet. She thought I was nuts but did ask her bishop. He told her that yes, it is part of our beliefs but she would be given understanding of that when the time was appropriate, milk before meat, and that satisfied her.

    http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

    You can swallow an elephant if you do it a small bite at a time.

    edit to add Jay in Oregon beat me to this.

  116. 116.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    “Another clue for you all: The walrus was Paul!”

  117. 117.

    henqiguai

    May 20, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est (#82):

    (for the ironing impaired, this is snark)

    Man, I hate ironing; especially my shirts…

  118. 118.

    opie jeanne

    May 20, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    @Jay in Oregon: Ah, you beat me to it.

  119. 119.

    suzanne

    May 20, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    Growing up in Mesa, I have literally hundreds of LDS friends and acquaintances, and many of them have stopped attending and no longer consider themselves members, no longer tithe, etc. Many came out, many were always jack Mormons, and a principled few object to Church hypocrisy. Almost all of them are still officially counted on the rolls. It’s really difficult to get your name removed from their list. My brother-in-law has requested in writing three times and is probably still on there.

    Whenever I hear, “the Church has blahblahblah million members!”, I automatically slash that by at least 50%.

  120. 120.

    Yutsano

    May 20, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    @suzanne: Hell knowing them they count the posthumous baptisms as well. Anything to show the church in a position of strength seems to be all that matters.

  121. 121.

    Chris

    May 20, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    @suzanne:

    Growing up in Mesa, I have literally hundreds of LDS friends and acquaintances, and many of them have stopped attending and no longer consider themselves members, no longer tithe, etc. Many came out, many were always jack Mormons, and a principled few object to Church hypocrisy. Almost all of them are still officially counted on the rolls. It’s really difficult to get your name removed from their list. My brother-in-law has requested in writing three times and is probably still on there.
    …
    Whenever I hear, “the Church has blahblahblah million members!”, I automatically slash that by at least 50%.

    Yeah, good point.

    I always wondered about, because I attended a fundiegelical church for a little bit at the beginning of college before figuring out they were fucking insane, and I remember “registering” with the Church (just writing down your name and former parish somewhere). I’ve never heard from them since I left, but I really doubt if they ever removed me from the rolls, or even if they have a system to do that (as a missionary church, it wouldn’t make them look too good).

  122. 122.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    @suzanne:

    It’s really difficult to get your name removed from their list. My brother-in-law has requested in writing three times and is probably still on there.

    I really detest “the rolls.” Once you’re on the rolls, you’re counted for bullshit statistics like “total members” whether you agree to be there or not (cf, the Roman Catholic Church). Because, hey, shut up! that’s why.

  123. 123.

    arguingwithsignposts

    May 20, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    @Chris: No, they didn’t remove you. I know that from personal experience. Unless you transfer to another church or die, you’re on the rolls. Good times!

  124. 124.

    suzanne

    May 20, 2012 at 1:27 pm

    @Yutsano:

    Anything to show the church in a position of strength seems to be all that matters.

    And they straight-up lie to the kids, too.

    I had a teacher attempt to convert me once, in class (yes), and I told him that I disrespected the LDS Church in part for their actions taken around the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Not one Mormon classmate present at the time had even heard of the Massacre. My teacher confirmed that the event really did take place, and ended up inundated with questions from the LDS students, and had no opportunity to preach at me anymore.

  125. 125.

    Ronzoni Rigatoni

    May 20, 2012 at 1:39 pm

    @satanicpanic: God told you not to work hard? Great stuff. Reminds me of an exchange in an Elmore Leonard book (I forget which) where the cops, having nabbed a habitual Haitian Burgler for the umpteenth time, asked him why do you do this? You’re not very good at it and you could make more money simply by working.” “Work?” cries the arrestee, “Work in not good for you. If work was any good, all the rich people would keep it for themselves and not let you have any of it.” So true.

  126. 126.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Hey Suzanne!!. O/T but since you’re an architect and live in Phoenix and I’m in Phoenix and have an entire free afternoon at my disposal, can you advise me — is touring Taliesin West worth the $28? I’m thinking of driving over to Scottsdale this afternoon. Thanks in advance.

  127. 127.

    Tehanu

    May 20, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    @Southern Beale:

    No Man Knows My History is a great, great book. Fawn Brodie was born a Mormon and she really knew what she was talking about.

  128. 128.

    beltane

    May 20, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    @rikyrah: 3 of them have had to resort to IVF? That is just plain weird. If almost makes me wonder if this is part of some kind of LDS eugenics project.

  129. 129.

    FlipYrWhig

    May 20, 2012 at 1:51 pm

    IIRC Obama started going to Trinity UCC because it was a way to augment his community organizing. The church didn’t shape him, because he was already an adult and politically involved long before he ever set foot in it.

  130. 130.

    FlipYrWhig

    May 20, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    @Chris: MoveOn does the same kind of accounting, refusing to distinguish between active, current membership and onetime participation.

  131. 131.

    WereBear

    May 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    @beltane: I didn’t know that. It’s downright weird.

    Though there is a lot of inbreeding among folks with money, isn’t there? Fear of gold-diggers and gigolos, among other reasons. Add in religious restrictions, and the restricted gene pool of the original Utah settlers: are we looking at some kind of Hapsburg effect?

  132. 132.

    WereBear

    May 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    @beltane: I didn’t know that. It’s downright weird.

    Though there is a lot of inbreeding among folks with money, isn’t there? Fear of gold-diggers and gigolos, among other reasons. Add in religious restrictions, and the restricted gene pool of the original Utah settlers: are we looking at some kind of Hapsburg effect?

  133. 133.

    suzanne

    May 20, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Taliesin West is worth $28 and more. I’ve taken the tour at least a dozen times and never regret it.

  134. 134.

    Mnemosyne (iTouch)

    May 20, 2012 at 2:30 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I’m on the iPod and can’t link to it, but Obama did a really interesting interview about his conversion in “Christianity Today” back when he was a senator. (It should be easily Google-able.) It would be pretty much guaranteed to drive the right into a frenzy because he talks about how joining the church helped him solidify his identity as an African-American and how important black churches were to the Civil Rights movement.

  135. 135.

    FlipYrWhig

    May 20, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iTouch): Yup, that’s pretty much the way I remember it too, and that it’s part of _Dreams from My Father_ as well.

  136. 136.

    SiubhanDuinne

    May 20, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    @suzanne: Thanks! That’s what I wanted to hear :-)

  137. 137.

    suzanne

    May 20, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    @beltane:

    If almost makes me wonder if this is part of some kind of LDS eugenics project.

    They don’t need a eugenics project. They’re all interrelated already. I’ve had multiple LDS friends start dating another Church member, only to find out that they were second cousins or something. Ken Bennett, the AZ Secretary of State in the news for being a birther idiot, is the uncle of a friend. I am friends with numerous Romneys and Romney relatives. If y’all remember Evan Mecham, another fabulous LDS Arizona politician…. I went to his grandson’s wedding (well, the reception only, of course). I know members of Russell Pearce’s family, and Jerry Lewis’ (Pearce’s replacement) daughter is a really good friend of mine. And the Pearces are related to the Lewises. No lie.

    Big family trees, but they don’t branch so much as tangle.

  138. 138.

    Sally Rakowski

    May 20, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    Axelrod: Mormonism Off the Table

  139. 139.

    Unsympathetic

    May 20, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    “frequently spoke about obeying authority, the danger of rationalizing misbehavior”

    Of course, if you apply that logic to Wall Street’s decision to ignore laws regarding leverage, disclosure, and documentation.. all of Wall Street should be put in Sing Sing.

    Rules are for little people. Rich people make their own rules!

  140. 140.

    MonkeyBoy

    May 20, 2012 at 3:56 pm

    @Sally Rakowski:

    Axelrod: Mormonism Off the Table

    Of course the Obama campaign has to take the high road which also slaps downs people who have issues with Obama’s religion.

    It will be interesting to see how the issue of Romney’s Mormonism is kept alive despite this.

    I saw a graphic the other day I liked. The text was:

    Romney or Obama 2012?
    A choice between heathens is no choice

    While appearing to equally diss both candidates the main effect of such a sign would be to suppress the fundie vote.

  141. 141.

    Juju

    May 20, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    @kay:
    I always look forward to reading your comments. That comment is a bullseye.

  142. 142.

    Nutella

    May 20, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    @rikyrah:

    Willard has five sons.
    __
    at least 3 of them had to use IVF for their wives to get children.
    __
    yet, Willard is for the Personhood Amendments, which would make IVF illegal.

    No, no, no. You don’t understand. Laws, church rules, amendments — those are for the little people, not for the MOTUs or the Mormon aristocracy.

    Mormon men, especially rich Mormon men, get to make their own rules.

    Michael Purdy, a spokesman for the LDS Church, said, the church discourages surrogate motherhood but leaves the decision to individual members.

  143. 143.

    Villago Delenda Est

    May 20, 2012 at 4:31 pm

    @Sally Rakowski:

    Mormonism Off the Table

    The problem for Rmoney is that as far as the fundigelicals, his supposed supporters are concerned, it’s never off the table.

    Obama need do absolutely nothing. It will still be out there on the wingfringe.

  144. 144.

    SBJules

    May 20, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    @Southern Beale:

    It’s very good. She wrote about Thomas Jefferson too.

  145. 145.

    uptown

    May 20, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    It’s always okay to lie to the marks, when you pulling a con.

  146. 146.

    Jim Newell

    May 21, 2012 at 2:53 am

    seems like all religious texts tend to say “do what you gotta do to survive and get this thing off the ground” in their early centuries when people are try to snuff them out of existence, because religious texts are political documents.

    what I am trying to say is that some big society-organizing lies are older than others, ho hum, but presidential nominees act the way they act and lie the way they lie and do what they do to ensure their survival.

    i know that “the right would totally do this with Jeremiah Wright so why can’t we” but i think we can all agree that they look stupid when they do that.

    two technocrats with pretty obvious aims, based on polling, for when they get in office, and no secret religious plans to unleash on the world.

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