But the Borgias is just redundant when you have these guys:
So much for compromise.
A total of 43 Catholic educational, charitable and other entities filed a dozen lawsuits in federal court around the nation Monday, charging that the Obama Administration’s rule requiring coverage of birth control in most health insurance plans violates their religious freedom.
Among the plaintiffs in the suits are the University of Notre Dame and the Catholic University of America, as well as the Archdioceses of New York, Washington, Dallas, St. Louis and Pittsburgh.
***The president’s Catholic allies were pleased, as were some of those who had been complaining. Even the president of Notre Dame, Father John Jenkins, called the announcement “a welcome step toward recognizing the freedom of religious institutions to abide by the principles that define their respective missions.”
But over time, discussions over how to make it work appear to have broken down.
Even taking the actual benefits out of the hands of the religious organization “does not solve our moral dilemma,” said Catholic University President John Garvey in a statement. Garvey noted that, “The only change the ‘accommodation’ offers is that the insurance company, rather than the University, would notify subscribers that the policy covers the mandated services.” But the students and employees would still have to pay for “objectionable” prescriptions and services.
The Obama Administration declined comment on the suits, citing a policy of silence with regard to ongoing litigation.
But Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood, which is among the groups most strongly backing the requirement for contraceptive coverage, said, “It is unbelievable that in the year 2012 we have to fight for access to birth control.”
I must admit I prefer the T&A of the tv series over the pederasty of the real thing.
Mark S.
Has George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, SC joined the suit?
eric
you know who doesn’t have to fight for birth control? George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, SC, that’s who.
The Other Bob
“Even taking the actual benefits out of the hands of the religious organization “does not solve our moral dilemma,” said Catholic University President John Garvey in a statement. Garvey noted that, “The only change
the ‘accommodation’ offers is that the insurance company, rather than the University, would notify subscribers that the policy covers the mandated services.” But the students and employees would still have to pay for “objectionable” prescriptions and services.that will satisfy us is when the Government fully endorses and enforces our relgious beliefs on everyone else reguardless of their own beliefs.”Fixed.
Villago Delenda Est
The red beanie brigade has decided that they are going to fall on their swords over this issue.
Good. A sword needs to be bathed in blood every so often, and I can’t think of a more deserving place to bathe it in than in the bellies of red beanies.
redshirt
Last gasps, I hope. And I say: Bring it on. Let the cloaks of deception fall and monsters stand fully revealed – and thus, we as a people fully revealed.
...now I try to be amused
The Roman Catholic Church and its affiliated organizations are making an excellent argument for single-payer health insurance.
tamied
@…now I try to be amused: And a good argument for non-tax-exempt status.
Villago Delenda Est
If money is fully fungible, that is, if by providing basic health care to women is somehow a violation of the conscience of some, then it’s high time for tax exemptions for all religious institutions to be rescinded. They have a special place, and they insist on ramming down the throats of everyone. No more.
Time to tax them fully for all the services that make their existence possible. Fire and police protection. The court system. Infrastructure…roads, sewers, water supplies. I object to being forced to subsidize organizations I disagree with by having them tax exempt. This argument about fungibility works both ways.
Oh, and I want assholes like Dolan to be frog marched in orange jumpsuits for their criminal conspiracy to protect child rapists.
TooManyJens
Well, yes. Since your objection was supposedly that you were being forced to “cooperate with evil,” now you don’t have to cooperate. “Evil” will just go on its merry way without you getting your hands dirty.
That’s true of anyone buying insurance, not just students and employees of Our Moral Betters(tm). Your students and employees probably don’t object to birth control anyway.
They’re also wrong about how emergency contraceptives work, but just trying explaining that to people.
Arm The Homeless
You really have to wonder whether the GOP, through conservative Catholics, have been itching for this fight, or whether they are face-palming as the petticoat brigade is out front on this issue.
Can anyone honestly say that when an issue regarding the Catholic church is being pushed by the men in dresses, that “child molesters” isn’t the first thing to come to mind? Perhaps it’s just because I am shrill and unkind. But I would wager, not.
Mnemosyne
This is the direction I suspected it was going — conservatives want employers to be allowed to impose their moral beliefs on their employees.
Still waiting for someone to explain why this is okay but a Muslim employer requiring all of his female employees to cover their hair in accordance with his religious beliefs should not be allowed. (Hint: “Because Christianity is a real religion and Islam isn’t” is not a valid answer.)
mcd410x
Preemptive war violates my religious freedom. Who wants to join my suit to get our money back?
Hell, instead of taxes, let’s just donate what we want to the government — if we wind up with too many cans of tomato soup and not enough intercontinental ballistic missiles, well, tough shit.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
Because Christianity is a real religion and Islam isn’t.
That’s the answer. It’s not an intellectually honest answer, but it’s the answer that is implied in this entire thing.
I grew up in Oregon, a notoriously “unchurched” state, where it’s no big deal not to be falling asleep to a sermon on Sunday mornings.
However, in the South, people think you’re funny if you’re not in church on Sunday mornings, falling asleep to a sermon.
That’s what we’re dealing with here.
shortstop
I can’t understand why Francis George has failed to get in on this action. Probably too busy comparing Chicago’s LGBT community to Nazis.
I haven’t yet been able to find a list of all 43 plaintiff entities. If anyone has a link to one, I’d be obliged.
redshirt
I sense many Shibboleth’s a’shaking with the changing of the times. Let them come crashing down as the rotted constructions they are!
Stuck in the Funhouse
WoW wee!!. So this kind of rationale could ban any business doing business with the church, from having anything to do with things they find “objectionable”.
If I didn’t know any better, I might think there is some kind of loose conspiracy goings on, between all religious wingnuts, and other wingnuts as well, to stage a kind of religious coup on the country. Of taking the freedom of religion to stretch way farther than ever before, to cover all kinds of things about American society they don’t approve of. The lawsuits are piling up at the federal level, for about any kind of offense directed at progressive thought in law, and liberty, and doing it by large degrees of separation, spreading in concentric legal circles out from the pulpit. They do have a sympathetic ear in a wingnut SCOTUS, right now. Makes a body wonder, what the hell they are up to.
...now I try to be amused
@Mnemosyne:
Reminds me of the “War on Drugs”, which is really the “War on Drugs the Majority Don’t Use”.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
As an non-Catholic raised kid who went to Catholic schools until 8th Grade? This is beyond reprehensible. As much as I admire their Good Works, their inability to admit pederasty as a massive cancer on the Catholic body politic, while demanding Special Treatment to never, ever allow women the power over their own bodies they find so indefensible, says it all.
They are the Pharisees Jesus talked to and about, 2000 years later — just as addicted to power, just as blind to the truths in the religions they claim to defend.
The vast majority of women will see this asinine act as a clear and present danger. As they should.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, the Founders gave avoiding a replay of the 30 Years’ War in the new world a good shot, but I’m afraid that we’re about to get an up close and personal replay of history here.
The wingtards want it, they want it so bad they can taste it.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Shall we start a lawsuit over having to pay higher taxes so that groups we don’t agree with – Churches – don’t have to.
dmsilev
@shortstop:
Or comparing the LGBT community to the KKK. That one went over real well if I remember correctly.
geg6
Fuck these criminal conspiracists and child rapers. Oh, and once again, all the “liberal” Catholics who are all too happy to fund this shit by showing up in the pews and putting their envelopes in the basket. Every single one of them is complicit, in their crimes and in their efforts to try to force women back into the dark ages.
Comrade Dread
No, you pay for your own (and your employees’) insurance policies. You put money into a risk pool. The insurance company uses that money (which is no longer yours, it’s theirs once you give it to them) to pay for medical care for patients.
Insurance companies, how do they work?
Mnemosyne
@…now I try to be amused:
Given that women are both a numerical majority in the population and that a majority of women of child-bearing age use contraception, I’m not sure what connection you’re seeing.
Violet
And there’s no War on Women, of course. Right George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, South Carolina?
Stuck in the Funhouse
That, and it’s a culture war. With a seeming all out offensive in the works. Where you file wacky lawsuits, and ask questions later.
The Other Bob
Wait. Aren’t a majority of these fine institutions already being forced to do this by state law?
Further – these buisnesses have an out – they can just not provide benefits at all.
Comrade Dread
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I think I object more strongly to my tax dollars being used to pay for drone attacks overseas that tend to kill quite a few innocent civilians.
I wonder if the bishops would have my back if I stopped paying the percentage of my tax dollars that fund the DoD.
Randy P
@Mnemosyne: I’ve had much the same thought, but with including the words “Sharia Law” in the sentence somewhere.
Stuck in the Funhouse
The Catholic Church
Too big to fail?
rikyrah
tired of these pedophile protectors
SatanicPanic
It’s just too bad we can’t deport them all the Vatican City, since they’re so eager to live in a theocracy.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Comrade Dread: I was trying to hit these guys where it hurts. You know, their God: $.
Villago Delenda Est
@Comrade Dread:
Ask Raymond Hunthausen
shortstop
@dmsilev: Right you are — it was the KKK, not Nazis.
Jeff Spender (Wonko the Sane)
Why don’t you guys step in and out of the asylum?
It’s rather nice out here.
Scamp Dog
@Mnemosyne: I think he’s referring to the fact that the “War on Drugs” has harsher penalties for crack (as opposed to powder) cocaine,and that the drug laws are enforced more harshly on minority populations. Although I think his formulation isn’t quite accurate: hasn’t some large fraction of the population tried weed?
wvng
@eric: As a collosal dick, it is not clear to me that George Tierney Jr. of Greenville, SC needs birth control.
yopd1
On a related note: Could a Christian military chaplain decline to perform a marriage between a man and a woman if one of the participants were not Christian?
shortstop
@Stuck in the Funhouse: I fear so, although I wish it were too failed to stay big.
Gotta remember that as unhappy as the U.S., Australia, the U.K. and much of western Europe are with the RCC, Latin America and Africa have its back.
ETA: That will change when we start hearing about the wholesale sexual abuse of children in Latin America and Africa. Since these regions are replete with dirt-poor families who rely on the church for basic necessities–and thus have more incentive to keep quiet–I expect it’s happening on a scale that makes the priest-rapists in the developed world seem models of self-restraint.
Comrade Dread
@Arm The Homeless: No, my first thought is that these types of battles are terrible ones to fight.
There’s a lot of evils in this world. Women using birth control isn’t one of them.
There are better battles to fight. Better causes to strive for than whether or not affiliated (but largely secular) agencies pay into a risk pool that might be used to fund a young lady’s birth control which she might (but almost definitely won’t) use to opt into nymphomania.
cathyx
The Catholic church has to do something to get their numbers up.
burnspbesq
@Villago Delenda Est:
If such a conspiracy can be proven, then I am right there with you.
Got evidence?
MikeJ
People wouldn’t need birth control if they followed the example set by the Church and raped children.
Jeff Spender (Wonko the Sane)
@Comrade Dread:
My grandparents, lifelong Mexican Catholics, have just about had it with this. I listened to my grandmother go off on a rant about the corruption and uselessness of the leadership and it made me blush.
It was righteous.
Comrade Mary
@The Other Bob:
For the motherfucking win.
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
Seeing how you are a collaborator with the child rapists, I owe you nothing.
...now I try to be amused
@Mnemosyne:
I was trying to relate the “War on Drugs the Majority Don’t Use” with your observation that Catholic employers want to infringe on their employees’ liberty in the name of religious freedom, while Muslim employers will not be able to because they’re in the minority.
hhex65
this whole business is crazier than a Jose Whedon screenplay
Xecky Gilchrist
Clearly it’s time for churches to go Galt and stop accepting government money.
Svensker
@wvng:
Wait. Why are you a colossal dick? Just lucky?
Arm The Homeless
@Comrade Dread: The Church has its framing, and you better believe they aren’t going to let go of that bone.
I wonder how much play “Obama is forcing us to fund abortions” will get with the nominal/cultural Catholics? At least the ones who can be swayed.
Villago Delenda Est
In answer to the collaborator’s question, though:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/17/nyregion/17dolan.html?pagewanted=all
For starters. Teh Google, it tells all.
Dolan needs to hang. As does his boss, Ratzi.
Villago Delenda Est
@Svensker:
Poor choice of words, I think.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@burnspbesq: There’s already enough in writing to hang every bishop in America.
But every priestly rape of a child could be on video and it still wouldn’t suffice for you to even condone opening an investigation.
Mnemosyne
@…now I try to be amused:
Ah, okay. I’m still not sure it works, though, because two majorities are being pitted against one another in this case (Christianists vs. women). The religious institution aspect is actually sleight of hand, IMO, because at least one bill that would allow any employer to not cover healthcare that s/he morally disapproves of has already been introduced to the House.
I am also waiting for any of our conservative trolls to explain why “religious freedom” demands that a Hindu radiologist working at a Catholic hospital conform to Roman Catholic doctrine.
(Fixed an adjective)
burnspbesq
@Villago Delenda Est:
I can see you’re lost. Reality is over there.
Ash Can
I don’t think the bishops realize just how far they’re overplaying their hand. They’re going all in on contraception, of all things, the one issue on which the vast majority of Catholics disagree with them. They’ve provided this kind of insurance coverage in (IIRC) 28 states without incident, for years, but now that this regulation is effectively being extended to all states, now they’re kicking up a fuss. “WTF” doesn’t even begin to address it.
The best I can figure is that there are any or all of several things going on here. First, the bishops may be trying to hammer home to the laity the fact that contraception is not allowed by the Church (like the laity is going to care any more now than it has in the past). Second, the USCCB may be figuring that the SCOTUS is going to uphold the ACA, so they can’t just sit back and let the SCOTUS do their work for them. Third, they may be seeing the option of the Catholic institutions simply declining to provide insurance coverage (as Franciscan U. opted to do) as unacceptable — with good reason; students and staff will go elsewhere and the institutions will go poof.
Someone here — and I forget who; apologies — mentioned that the scuttlebutt out of the Vatican is that Pope Ratz is having the Western contingent of the Catholic Church draw the line in the sand here in the US because this is the most conservative (read: bass-ackward) of the Western nations at this point and they have the best chance of gaining traction here. If you ask me, they’ve lit up a big old exploding stogie and are puffing away on it, and I’m just waiting for the fire to reach the charge.
burnspbesq
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Sez you. Humor me. Link to some of it.
Simply put, that’s a lie, and you know perfectly well that it’s a lie.
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
If you’re still a member of HMC, you’re a collaborator.
I KNOW you are a better person than that. Get out. NOW. It’s the only way.
burnspbesq
@Ash Can:
Let ’em litigate. They’re going to lose.
burnspbesq
@Villago Delenda Est:
You don’t get to make that choice for me. In fact, you don’t even get to make that suggestion. It’s my life. You stay the FUCK out of it.
CaliCat
Religious freedom my ass. Where was all this outrage and indignation when innocent kids were being violated in the worst ways by perverted old clergymen?
The Catholic Church is nothing if not consistent in their shameless hypocrisy and blatant misogyny.
Of course, the MSM (including HuffPo) is happy to muddy the waters by calling it “free birth control” when it’s covered under an insurance plan. And I won’t hold my breath waiting for the media to make the distinction that birth control pills are used for a myriad of medical issues.
Mino
The inept Borgia wanna-be, Mr. B00ker, is getting whacked big time. You showed the knife, Mr. B00ker.
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
It’s your choice. You can continue to tacitly support the criminals, or you can stop.
It’s not your faith that is at issue. It’s the support of an organization that has betrayed that faith in a most profound way. The violation of innocents and the explicit, premeditated concealment of that violation.
However, know this: you are the one denying reality. I’m just showing you the consequences.
Mino
@CaliCat: It makes no difference what BC is used for. It’s a part of women’s health. Period.
jharp
@Villago Delenda Est:
What is HMC?
Sounds like you struck a nerve.
Villago Delenda Est
@jharp:
Holy Mother Church.
4tehlulz
@burnspbesq: Don’t be mad. I think it’s cute the way people think their hands are clean here.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mino:
Yes. This.
Women’s health should not be a political football, but it is in play now.
We draw the line here.
shortstop
@burnspbesq:
Hard to say. In the hundreds of comments you’ve made here defending the church at large, members of its upper management, its laity, and/or individual priests, every single one of your avowals that you want justice for raped children has been an afterthought….and always a tepidly expressed one.
Not once have you made a standalone comment expressing dismay, anger, revulsion, horror or pity for what has happened to all these kids. Not once.
I’ve wondered why you just can’t seem to get exercised about what the victims have gone through, while you have no trouble whatsoever flying into rages and snits about what you perceive as unfair treatment of the church and its members.
A more cynical person than I might wonder exactly whose side you’re on and why.
Mino
@Xecky Gilchrist: It’s past time to allow them to buy up blocks of hospitals, too.
DFHs warned that safety net federal monies funneled through religious groups would be corrupting. And, boy, were we right.
jharp
@Villago Delenda Est:
Thank you.
And I agree with you. Anyone supporting the Catholic Church is corroborating with criminals and funding and enabling the raping of children. And the cover ups and the rapes continue to this day.
And that is just plain wrong.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Villago Delenda Est:
Fix’t.
Anyone who follows this cult of assholes who think that they can bugger little boys and still arrive at the pearly gates of heaven needs to have their head examined.
One interesting note: Maybe this explains why the bible stated that only 144,000 male virgins will go to heaven; the priests need a long-term supply of fresh meat.
Ash Can
@burnspbesq: I both hope and believe that you’re right, but in the meantime they’re making a spectacle of themselves the likes of which I haven’t seen in all my 54 years, not to mention burning through a boatload of cash with this folderol. I’m still gobsmacked that this of all issues is the one they’re rallying around. If it were immigration or income inequality or even abortion, they’d get far more of the laity on board. As it is, they’re just isolating themselves.
And I’d love to have been a fly on the wall of the office of the president of U. of Notre Dame when the decision to file ND’s suit went down. Given his track record, I can’t imagine him being a gung-ho participant.
shortstop
@burnspbesq:
Um, you sound more than a little crazy. And not particularly intelligent or mature, though that’s not news.
This is how it works, Frank. You get to be a member of whatever organization you wish. You get to express your opinion fully about that organization in public and private fora. Other people also get to express their opinions about the wisdom of your membership.
Here’s how it doesn’t work: You don’t get to say your piece and then scream like an adolescent when someone criticizes you for it. If you didn’t wish to discuss your membership in the RCC, you had the option of not doing so here repeatedly and at length. Since you have done so and continue to do so, try to take the verbal blows like a man and can the desperate defensiveness.
Mudge
It is laughable for the Catholic Church as an institution to invoke morals at this point. But, that aside I say, give the universities a choice. If they choose not to include contraceptive coverage, they lose all Federal funds. No NSF grants, no NIH grants..nothing, nada. Let them keep their religiosity pure, but recognize that eliminates them from access to public funds.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Villago Delenda Est:
You forgot jails. With priests going to jail, it’s about time the church chips in and pays the bill for services rendered.
Like all taxpaying citizens do.
WereBear
I’d be fine with Catholics getting out of the hospital business. They have made it crystal clean that they will allow a woman to die rather than interfere with any fetus she is carrying. In fact, they excommunicated a nun who saved the life of a mother by being involved with the decision to terminate the pregnancy.
For a hospital, isn’t that doing it wrong?
shortstop
Huh. Two more priests have been removed from ministry in the Philly archdiocese. It seems that both have agreed to “accept a supervised life of prayer and penance.” How about a life behind bars, fellas? That’s where we like criminals to do their penance.
Mino
I beginning to believe freedom from religion is gonna become a big issue in the immediate future. Can we get a Hyde amendment?
Anya
Do we know if George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, South Carolina supports the child rapists and their enablers?
burnspbesq
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’m no longer paying attention to you. You have nothing useful to say on this subject. So you can stop.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@shortstop:
What kills me is that whenever anything ‘big’ happens (Jonestown, Heavens Gate and such), the people who were associated with it are forever known as having been associated with it and the notoriety that comes with it. I’m sure there are lots of Catholics that make this same association, like most people do. But try to tie them to the cult of little boy buggery and supporting it and watch them dive head first into denial.
I saw the hypocrisy as a teen, walked away from the RCC and I believe that my life is better for it.
Villago Delenda Est
I think Burnsie knows, deep down, what needs to happen.
As I said, I think DESPITE the fact that he’s a lawyer (insert a zillion lame and cliche lawyers/professional courtesy/shark jokes here), he’s fundamentally a moral person.
That’s why I find his position so worthy of discussion. He has openly voiced his disapproval of the hierarchy, but he stops short of taking the decisive step to rebuke them.
Admittedly, it’s a huge step for him. None of us can make that decision for him, and I wouldn’t dream of it.
But I can point out the consequences of not taking that huge step. Because the taint, it carries.
What would I do in his situation? I can never say. I think I’d leave in disgust, but then again, my background is not his, and I can’t begin to imagine what it must be like.
I just know that I could not stay, knowing what I know about the situation.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
It was inevitable, had to happen sooner or later. The civil rights battles of fifty years ago would never have led anywhere if the feds hadn’t confronted head-on the assholes claiming that “it is our GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to discriminate in the private sector, even if we’re peddling crucial public services like housing, food, employment and the like!”
In the same way, women’s rights and gay rights were never going to be fully achieved until we stopped tiptoeing around and finally drove a stake through the notion that Catholic and other religious hospitals are somehow entitled not to provide vital services like abortion or contraception – or that employers are somehow entitled not to cover them in insurance plans – or that the federal government is somehow not allowed to fund these procedures because it upsets the red beanies and the Bible Belt freaks. Well, damn the red beanies and damn the Bible Belt freaks, full speed ahead.
burnspbesq
@shortstop:
Apparently you’ve forgotten or ignored the dozens of times that I’ve said that if crimes can be proven, the guilty should go to jail. If that’s too tepid for you, that’s your problem, not mine.
El Cid
So, Republicans want many, many more Latino babies? Conservative Catholics fear that a shrinking white majority won’t shrink quickly enough?
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
Well, there are a lot of others who you won’t be paying attention to, so I’m in good company.
Judas Escargot, Your Postmodern Neighbor
@burnspbesq:
Probably.
But then, they just keep appealing until it eventually gets up to the Roberts court. All those Opus Dei Catholics on SCOTUS are sure to recuse themselves when the day comes, right?
(Of course ACA may very well have been overturned by then, so I guess it’s all moot).
Chyron HR
@burnspbesq:
I want you to stop typing for a few minutes and think about what you just said.
AA+ Bonds
RUNNIN UP ON YA WITH THE FRONT PAGE OF FoxNews.com RIGHT NOW
Couldn’t pass this one up; it shows what has the Romney crew hurting
Hell, even Power Play (“Bain Attacks Get More Awkward For Obama”) drops a fuckin dime:
Someone needs to be editing that dumbass
CaliCat
@Mino: Yeah, I know that and of course it doesn’t matter. But conservatives are trying to make this solely about women’s sex lives and preventing pregnancy for family planning reasons and it’s NOT just about that. It’s important to make distinctions about everything the pill does so people don’t get stuck on that one aspect of it. These actions by the Catholic Church go way beyond the issue of pregnancy prevention for family planning and people need to be aware of this. Of course I know that pregnancy prevention itself is part of women’s health but not everyone does, especially men. I think the media should also educate the public on the fact that many woman need to avoid pregnancy for health reasons but I guess that’s asking too much.
joes527
@shortstop:
Actually, you are completely wrong.
Oh, you are free to say that bbq can’t scream like an adolescent. The thing is, you are no more the king of the universe than bbq is, so your saying it doesn’t make it so.
Feel free to scream like an adolescent at this post. I give you permission.
shortstop
@Villago Delenda Est: I don’t even think the question is whether or not he should leave — who cares? Who can make that decision for someone else? There are practicing Catholics here who have and still do put a lot of thought and honest self-appraisal into that question. As far as I can tell, Burns isn’t one of them; he assiduously avoids true self-examination in all areas, so I’d be surprised if he’s put himself through any uncomfortable minutes looking at this one.
What’s really interesting is why he doesn’t simply blow off the criticisms or defend against them. Becoming inappropriately enraged at the mere expression of these criticisms, as he so often does, is the worst of both worlds: he’s not supporting his position, nor is he letting it roll off him. All he’s doing is demonstrating that he deeply resents being challenged, feels extremely defensive about his church membership, is unable to control his emotions and mistakenly believes that he should have the power to control what others say.
AA+ Bonds
Oh wait I see the liberals are back to attacking the members of a religious group whose near 50/50 split was responsible for the Democratic victory in 2008
Y’all have fun acting out the Republican strategy now and let’s hope Joel Johnson is right and Nobody Reads The Comments
Chris
@Ash Can:
You left out # 4, which for my money is the deciding factor (even if your suggestions, particularly the first one, are also factoring into it):
“The USCCB is at this point nothing but an arm of the Republican Party.” They beat the ever-living shit out of the abortion and gay marriage horses while completely abdicating their responsibilities on every other issue, as we saw in the health care debate where despite officially claiming to want universal health care, they refused to involve themselves in the entire debate, and in some cases, went on to condemn the ACA even after Bart Stupak had killed his own career to write that “no money for abortion” amendment into it.
So yeah, I suspect they’re coming out with this now simply to back their Republican buddies and bring Obama down. Did they miscalculate? I hope so. The number of Catholics who support abortion and contraception gives me hope.
Comrade Mary
One of the few Catholics I still respect is this woman, and it’s not just because she was my infinitely patient and supportive high school principal/teacher.
shortstop
@joes527: Right you are; I should have phrased that differently. Perhaps this:
“You don’t get to say your piece and then scream like an adolescent when someone criticizes you for it without getting laughed off the intertubes.”
or
“You don’t get to control what people can and cannot suggest to you, so stop screaming like an adolescent when someone responds to your own comments with criticism.”
burnspbesq
@shortstop:
Not under Pennsylvania law, unless the victim is under the age of 13 and the rape results in serious bodily injury. The maximum sentence for rape of a person under the age of 13 that does not result in serious bodily injury is 40 years. And if the victim is 13 or older, the maximum sentence appears to be only 10 years, which seems too short for my liking.
But it’s OK for you admit that what you’d really like is for every Catholic priest who sexually assaulted a child to be executed, the corpse castrated, and the dick and balls nailed to the front door of the nearest cathedral. I won’t think less of you than I already do.
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq:
What about the times when the priests DID go to jail and the Church still wasn’t convinced a crime was committed?
From wikipedia:
The point here is they dithered. After the priest had been convicted in a court of law. THEY DITHERED.
“Misread”. Right. Ratzi sat on this for four fucking years. Probably too busy working on the purge of Hunthausen, I’d guess. For offending Raygun.
Comrade Mary
@Comrade Mary: EDIT: Whoops — she’s an Anglican priest now. Yeah, Jo, you fought one hell of a fight, but it was time to go.
beltane
@burnspbesq: However, if the priests in question were smoking a bowl while raping children that 10 year maximum sentence would go right out the window.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@shortstop:
IMO it’s the lawyer in him, it’s the way they’re wired. I think the ‘good ones’ do this for a wider client base (moar munny!), but who really knows.
Just walk on by while reaping the benefits, much like being a member of the Catholic church. ;p
burnspbesq
@shortstop:
I’m sorry; I wasn’t aware that I was required to submit my self-examination for your review and approval. I’ll try to do better from now on.
Violet
I get why men might stay in the Catholic church. It is a male hierarchy, after all. But why do women stay? Especially younger women. The male hierarchy is making it even more clear women don’t count. Why stick around for that?
CaliCat
@burnspbesq:
Yeah, those poor child rapists are the real victims, right?
shortstop
@burnspbesq: “A life behind bars,” dumbass, not “life [sentence] behind bars.” It was paralleling the phrase “a life of prayer and penance,” which the archdiocese apparently thinks is sufficient punishment for one self-admitted child abuser and one whose accuser’s claims were substantiated.
Why does the archdiocese think that? Why doesn’t it want known abusers in prison? And why was your first response to your misreading of my comment a semi-gleeful report that the priests were likely to do little time, followed by the second thought: “…which seems too short for my liking”? Can’t you ever think of the kids before you think of the priests?
Villago Delenda Est
@shortstop:
You make some good points.
I really don’t care if he stays or goes. Not really my business.
But it does shape my opinion of him. I don’t see how you can make change from within an institution that has stood for nearly two millennia and has demonstrated that it will fight any change tooth and nail.
But, you know what they say about opinions. Everyone has them.
/shrug
burnspbesq
@beltane:
Only if they used the doobage to “substantially impair … the complainant’s power to appraise or control his or her conduct by administering or employing, without the knowledge of the complainant, any substance for the purpose of preventing resistance through the inducement of euphoria, memory loss and any other effect of this substance.” That would tack on another ten.
shortstop
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I don’t think so. I know many attorneys whose excellent powers of analysis extend to themselves. On the other hand, Frank daily demonstrates he also has trouble taking in simple concepts that have nothing to do with him, so there’s a balance there.
@Villago Delenda Est: Well, I wasn’t criticizing you for holding that opinion, which is perfectly supportable. I just don’t personally care whether he stays or goes. Neither is likely to have much effect on his anger issues, dishonesty or control freakery. I guess it’s obvious that I don’t share your opinion that he’s a moral person. ;)
burnspbesq
@shortstop:
That wasn’t a misreading. The term “life behind bars” has a generally accepted meaning. If you didn’t mean that, you should have said something else.
As for the rest of your nonsense, you and I are never going to be on the same page, so I’m not going to bother with a point-by-point rebuttal.
Nutella
I know it won’t happen, but crap like this should lose the church its tax exemption. Why? Because many of the institutions now shrieking about that filthy Democrat forcing them to compensate their employees equitably, even the
filthy slutswomen, are already providing birth control in their health plans because they are already required to do so by the states.De Paul University in Chicago does, for example, because they lost their fight with Illinois several years ago. But the local cardinal (same guy who said LGBT activists are like the KKK) is up in arms about that damn Democrat making De Paul do what Illinois is already making De Paul do.
They are making a 100% political stand that has nothing to do with religion. If they gave a shit about religion they’d be spending more time getting their own parishioners to follow church teaching on birth control instead of screaming for the federal government to enforce those teachings on all their Catholic and non-Catholic employees.
burnspbesq
@CaliCat:
Remind me again where I said that.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@shortstop:
Do note that I said the ‘good ones’ with the proper scare quotes.
;p
Mike Lamb
@Comrade Dread: Leaving aside the functioning of insurance companies–read what he’s saying–he can’t allow someone else to pay for certain coverages because he, not the person actually spending the money, finds them “objectionable.”
shortstop
@burnspbesq:
…which, as explained above, changes with the addition of the word “a,” included in my comment because my sentence structure was exactly paralleling the quote from the archdiocese. When was the last time you heard someone say, “My client got a life” or “he’s doing a life”?
I can’t think that your patented inability to ever back down from a mistake–played out here day after day after day–serves your clients any better than it serves yourself. I hope your insurance coverage is hee-uge.
You got nothing.
lacp
This works out pretty well for the Republicans: they can let the Catholic hierarchy do all the heavy lifting and just take potshots from time to time as needed to keep things exciting. Whether they’re smart enough to do that or not, I have no idea.
Mike Lamb
@shortstop: It doesn’t even matter if it has a “generally accepted meaning”, I (and I suspect others) interpreted your post as a statement referencing what you believe to be an appropriate punishment for a child rapist in Pennsylvania at a moral level, not a legal analysis as to the maximum jail sentence available. Why burns had to come in with what could only be described as a defense of the child rapist is beyond me.
Mino
And Dolan is taking a page from his Republican friends and, if they don’t get their way, will hold hostage the poor who look to them for help.
srv
I think this is a good sign. One of those many Catholics on the Supreme Court has made a confession that they aren’t going to overturn ACA and the church is wheeling out Plan B.
Steve in DC
This is just another reason to break the relationship between employment and insurance, it doesn’t fucking work for anyone. Let the government provide the care to everyone and leave it at that, no more arguments over finding certain medical care immoral.
@Violet
There are female wing nuts as well. It’s not just men that think sex outside of marriage is immoral or that abortion = killing babies. Outside of that the Catholic Church does some good. The bishops are not the church. Most Catholics are pretty damn liberal when it comes to helping the poor. Catholics are a pretty solid liberal voting block as well.
Take the bishops out of it and Catholics do a lot of good helping the poor and the sick. We can only hope that one day the leadership of the church changes and reflects the values of it’s members.
gbear
OT but must see. Obama was thrown a question about Mayor B00ker’s remarks at a press conference in Chicago. He runs 99 yards with it for the touchdown spelling out why Romney’s actions at Bain are at the heart of what this election is all about. He just lays it all out. A perfect match for the ad the Obama campaign released about Romney destroying Ampad.
I’ll confess to being both an Obot and a Benenbot. His blog is just nailing everything today, without a single mention of what’s-his-name-jr.
Mino
@Steve in DC: This is just another reason to break the relationship between employment and insurance, it doesn’t fucking work for anyone.
Will anyone insist the minimum wage be raised after giving such a break to business? No. I thought not.
Mino
@gbear: I saw that and I think they should run an ad with B00ker’s remarks and Obama’s rebuttal. It would be the awesome.
Plus it would slap that idiot upside the head but good.
Mino
@gbear: From his speech: …And when you’re president, as opposed to the head of a private equity firm, your job is not simply to maximize profits. Your job is to figure out how everybody in the country has a fair shot. Your job is to think about those workers who get laid off, and how are we paying for their retraining. Your job is to think about how those communities can start creating new clusters so they can attract new businesses. Your job as president is to think about how do we set up an equitable tax system so that everybody’s paying their fair share, that allows us then to invest in science, and technology, and infrastructure, all of which are going to help us grow.
And so if your main argument for how to grow the economy is “I knew how to make a lot of money for investors,” then you’re missing what this job is about. It doesn’t mean you weren’t good at private equity. But that’s not what my job is as president…
That’s pretty killer.
FlipYrWhig
Catholic conservative leadership : Catholicism :: Israeli conservative leadership : Israel. Call out the bastards, but acknowledge that there are non-bastards and even progressives in the organization’s midst.
BTW, I am not Catholic, but a lifelong atheist from a secular family with zero Catholics in it going back as far as can be documented.
Mino
Cory B00ker will be on Maddow tonight.
FlipYrWhig
@Mino: @gbear: Well played!
gbear
@Mino:
Yep, and he was just cool as a cucumber about it. I can’t wait to see villager heads explode.
Raven
Former West Virginia football coach Bill Stewart dies at 59
Patricia Kayden
President Obama needs to stand firm on this. You would think that Catholics would have much more pressing things on their plate — such as preventing priests from raping children. Oh well.
Kathy in St. Louis
@Villago Delenda Est: “the issue was not whether Kiesle should be defrocked but whether he should be granted the dispensation he had requested from the obligation of chastity. ”
Does anyone else see the irony of splitting hairs over this matter when the man VERY CLEARLY was not obeying his vow of chastity if he was criminally,sexually assaulting young boys?
This is why I finally left and no longer consider myself a Catholic, after more than 6 decades in the Church.
Violet
@Mino:
That is awesome.
@Steve in DC:
I’m very aware of the good the non-hierarchy members of the Catholic church do. But at some point, how do you square the good with the bad? If you’re female, how do you keep working for the good within an organization that thinks you aren’t worth much except as a baby factory, and whose leaders want to deny you basic health care.
I get the social stuff (your whole family is there, it’s hard to leave because of peer pressure, etc.) but at some point it seems like younger women would just say, “Enough!” and walk out the door.
Joe Bauers
@burnspbesq:
Oh, what a relief! Thanks. Here goes:
What I’d really like is for every Catholic priest who sexually assaulted a child to be executed, the corpse castrated, and the dick and balls nailed to the front door of the nearest cathedral.
gelfling545
I think the RC church may officially overbid their hand. A good old traditional Irish-American Catholic gent of my acquaintance just said “Don’t even get me started on that nest of vipers”. Oops.
Just Some Fuckhead
@shortstop: I remember when you were too cool for these snits with a dumbass commenter!
EIGRP
@wvng: Are you saying you are the colossal dick, or George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, SC is the colossal dick?
shortstop
@Just Some Fuckhead: You may be thinking of someone else. I am not now and have never been a member of the cool party.
Mnemosyne
@shortstop:
Ironically, if the church had originally handled offending priests the way that Philadelphia seem to be proposing by sending them to an adults-only monastery in the middle of nowhere, it probably would have caused a lot fewer problems than shuffling them around from parish to parish.
Punchy
I just saw a GIANT catholic cathedral in downtown Madrid. If those fuckers could figgy out how to build megachurches, why cant they figgy out how to keep their priests’ junk out of small boys?
jrg
@burnspbesq:
Holy shit, burnsie. I realize how deeply butthurt you get when people point out you enable child molesters, but you do realize you’re commenting on a post about the leadership of your religion forcing their views on employees? Right?
gbear
@Joe Bauers: Some things just need to be said. Thanks for sharing that with us.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kathy in St. Louis:
It’s screamingly obvious that the Church, when confronted with a very unpleasant truth, one that any reasonable person would would have expected a defrocking to come down within minutes, if not days, of a conviction in a court of law, sat on it.
“Well, we’re really not sure that’s an appropriate action…”
The stupid. It burns.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Punchy:
Maybe they were solving FOR getting their junk in small boys?
chopper
@burnspbesq:
sounds like a good start.
Jay C
OK: Serious question (for a change): all these Big Important Catholic Organizations have filed suits in Federal court over the birth-control issue:
How long is it likely to take for
cheap political crapcases like this to filter through the Federal court system? Months? Years?Is this intended to be an election-year “issue”? ‘cuz IIRC, broadly-based cases like this don;t usually get adjudicated within (?) a year??
Omnes Omnibus
A couple of questions for everyone who is harshing on burnsie here. No one of you has a blind spot? A brother you would hide if the cops were looking for him – no matter what he had done? A boy- or girlfriend who was bad for you but you nevertheless loved?
I am not religious, so it would be easy for me to say “Walk away from the Catholic Church; it is too far gone.” I am, however, an American and this leads me to ask: How many people renounced their US citizenship when the US started a war of aggression and tortured people? Or did you say “I didn’t vote for this and I oppose it” like I did. Did you at least refuse to pay some of your taxes? Neither did I. Thoreau did – 160 years or so ago – and they sent him to jail.
Anyway, mote, beam; glass houses, stones; etc.
glitter
@Joe Bauers
Good plan but it suffers from a logistics problem: too few cathedrals to handle the demand.
Interestingly, our buddy Tim Dolan shouldn’t have any problem with this. He explained his absence of criticism of George Bush over the Iraq War and the death penalty by appealing to the argument that, despite millions of dead and wounded innocents in Iraq, since actions like those can SOMETIMES be moral (unlike, say, the horrible genocide of insurance payments for contraception unleashed by Obama on the world) – far be it from him to criticize
CaesarHerodclear moral atrocitiesBush and Cheney, who clearly know what’s best in these matters.So he’s got nothing to say about “sometimes moral” capital punishment for priests who rape little kids.
It’s actually a net benefit for the Church, when you consider how many more people will be visiting cathedrals in the future to appreciate the doors.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
To be honest, I can’t say I renounced my citizenship and stopped paying taxes.
I was saying “I want my country back!” way before the teatards did…because I saw my country teetering on the edge of the abyss to fascism and militarism.
Mainly because like most Americans, I don’t have the resources to say “fuck this shit” and relocate my ass to, say, Singapore.
However, leaving the RCC isn’t nearly as logistically difficult as physically leaving a country after renouncing your citizenship. Especially if you’ve made it clear that you don’t support the hierarchy. Unfortunately, the hierarchy IS the Church, the congregation is not, Vatican II notwithstanding.
jrg
@Omnes Omnibus: There’s a pretty big difference between going to jail, or leaving your home and possessions never to come back, and simply not giving money to a church.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: I know that the analogy is not exact, but for the non-religious what analogy could be?
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t know, but all I know is that if I were faced with such hypocrisy from a church hierarchy, I’d find another church and not support the hypocrites.
Omnes Omnibus
@jrg: Is there really a difference of are we just arguing over the price?
Look, I am just suggesting that for someone to whom a particular religious identity is extremely important, leaving that religion may be as psychologically difficult as leaving a country. OTOH, for me, I wouldn’t have a bit of trouble expropriating every bit of property they ever owned. Two years ago, while I was in Rome, I went to the Vatican Museum and I remember staring a Raphael painting and thinking that just selling off this one painting – which they could replace with another from the vault and never miss – would probably been enough for generous settlements for every plaintiff. I felt very Protestant that day, but it’s easy for me. I am not religious, and my family religious background is Protestant.
Kristin
Jesus, hearing all lawyers painted with stupid generalizations is getting as tired as Catholics complaining that anyone not submitting to their dogma is infringing on their religious liberty.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
dude, you rock. You just fucking ROCK.
I am proud to know you.
jrg
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes, I suppose we’re arguing over price, but if you want to follow that line of reasoning to it’s end, you might as well say that refusing to set yourself on fire to protest the Iraq war is the same as refusing to tithe to the RCC.
Ksmiami
@Villago Delenda Est: But I left in disgust and never looked back
Omnes Omnibus
@jrg: I am not going to go to the mattresses over this. Everyone draws his or her own lines in the sand. But, and I ask rhetorically, where is your blindspot?
zoot
TAKE AWAY THEIR G–DAMN TAX EXEMPTION! I HAVE A MORAL OBJECTION TO SUPPORTING THE F*CKERS WITH MY TAX DOLLARS!
jharp
@Omnes Omnibus:
Got it. Renouncing one’s American citizenship and bailing out on social security and Medicare that I’ve paid into for over 40 years is equivalent to walking across the street and patronizing the Lutheran Church that doesn’t rape children.
Fuck you. Jackass.
Omnes Omnibus
@jharp: Thank you for doing me the courtesy of reading everything that I wrote. Fuck yourself; save the money.
jharp
@Omnes Omnibus:
You are welcome.
Now go on defending and funding those who rape children. And my not renouncing my American citizenship over the Iraq War is the moral equivalence.
Good grief.
Mike
Where’s our version of the French King Charles VIII, complete with his outraaaageous accent?
We already have our own Savonarola. Rick Santorum is pretty much the 21st century version of that guy. It’s too bad that ol’ Girolamo had to be so crazy. He did manage a democratic revolution in Florence… of course, it had all the theocratic strings attached to it… just like Santorum would want.
jrg
@jharp: That’s not what he’s saying. He’s not even Catholic. He’s trying to find some sort of secular equivalent to it in order to help people understand burnspesq’s position.
In other words, he’s attempting the impossible, because, as you suggest, there is no logical or moral reason to support the RCC. The only way any decent person would do it is if they are brainwashed beyond redemption.
Omnes Omnibus
@jharp: Christ, you are a dipshit. Show me any place on the internet where I have defended those who rape children. Show me any place where I have said that I am a Catholic and/or pay tithes to the fucking Catholic Church. Or scroll up and note that I have specifically said that I am not religious. And note that I said the analogy was not exact. You picked the fucking phrase out of the middle of a fucking paragraph. Do you skim for things about which to become outraged?
Read what I fucking actually wrote. Disagree with that if you want, but don’t accuse me of random bullshit based on your lackadaisical reading.
jharp
@Omnes Omnibus:
“And note that I said the analogy was not exact.”
On this we agree. Only it was not even remotely close.
Let’s leave it at that.
jharp
@Omnes Omnibus:
You claimed that not renouncing and continuing to support those who rape children is equivalent to not renouncing one’s American citizenship over the Iraq War.
And your claim was stupid and indefensible. And I called you out on it.
That’s all.
Omnes Omnibus
@jharp: Hey, you led off with the random fuck yous based on an a half-assed reading of something. I don’t even get an apology for the child rape apologist accusation? Sure, let’s leave it at that.
Omnes Omnibus
@jharp: I also asked if people refused to pay part of their taxes based on opposition to the war. And I noted there was a precedent for doing it. Your tax money supported torture. A tithe paying Catholic’s money supported child rapists. Facts. What do you do about them? How do you oppose that with which you disagree? Different people draw different lines in different places. Your line might not be the only correct one.
jharp
@Omnes Omnibus:
Omnes Omnibus Says:
Quit while you’re behind jackass.
Going to fucking jail and giving up your property is not equivalent to walking across the street to go to a church that follows the same belief system but doesn’t enable child rapists.
To a few maybe. But I seriously doubt it.
eemom
@jharp:
No, YOU quit, you self-righteous know-nothing asshole.
There are only two possibilities here: (1) you fail Reading Comprehension 101, or
Nope. Come to think of it, that’s the only possibility.
Though there could, in fairness, be extenuating circumstances — e.g., you’re twelve years old, and haven’t taken that class yet.
Mike
@jharp: I know that for some people, leaving the Church would be bigger than going to jail. It would be tantamount to giving up their soul.
This belief that somehow every sect of Christianity is somehow interchangeable is incorrect. They are not. For Catholics, the faith and tradition of the Church is universal and unique, even if it’s leadership isn’t living up to the high standards expected of it.
For people who spent their whole lives as a Catholic, it’s not as simple as crossing the street to a Lutheran church or what not. It’s not much different than leaving the country and renouncing one’s citizenship–without the tax benefits.
A Humble Lurker
@Mike:
If your faith is so tied to the church, it wasn’t that strong on in it’s own merits to begin with. I say that as an ex-Catholic who is happy to celebrate the Summer solstice at their home made alter in their own home.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@eemom:
Are you yelling in the mirror again?
eemom
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Are you lost again? Here, let me help: the door out your ass is that way =>
Odie Hugh Manatee
@eemom:
What is it with you and your fascination with my ass? Is that all you got?
C’mon now, you can do better than that.
eemom
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
You confuse fascination with limited information. All you’ve had to offer so far this evening is the massive size of asshole that you are. (See Blair Mountain thread infra.)
So, you know, give me something else to work with, and I’ll see what I can do.
pattonbt
@burnspbesq: How definitively childish of you. Must be nice to be so ensconced in smugness. You really have nothing except “la la la la la I cant hear you my fingers are in my ears” do you?
Must be hitting somewhere close to home though for you to play such lame cards, eh?
J R
OK, cut me some slack. I haven’t read any of the comments, but I got something to say.
How many Catholics will be forced to take birth control by the ACA? None! That’s how many. Forcing business entities to provide complete health care to people who want it is not forcing anyone to break their religions proscriptions!!
Not providing complete health care is violating the right to health care of the employee in every way! As usual the right wing projects their desire to limit rights onto the progressive instinct to provide additional freedom and support to the people.
bob h
If this rule is part of PPACA, the meathead Bishops could have saved a lot of legal fees by just waiting until the end of June for the SCOTUS verdict on the law.