I hate to say this, but neither of the images John spoke of enrages me all that much. Some completely inconsequential idiot photoshops a picture of Obama, who cares? They are who we thought they were. Some slightly less inconsequential idiot photoshops a picture of S.E. Cupp, that’s a a little bit worse because it was in a magazine with some circulation. I guess that does make me kind of mad, but enraged? Larry Flynt is who we we thought he was.
What made Rush Limbaugh’s remarks about Sandra Fluke so disturbing is that Limbaugh is taken seriously in Washington — BriWi calls in to his show to kiss his ass, Mark Halperin hangs on his every word, Republican Congressmen speak his name in whispers (what higher praise can there be). If Don Surber had made some dumb ass remark about sex tapes on his blog, I would not be mad, I’d just laugh at him, wouldn’t you? It’s not so funny when one of the most powerful men in the Republican party says it, though.
Look, if you ask me to sign something that says Larry Flynt should apologize, I’ll sign it, put it to a vote, I’ll vote for it, but what I won’t do is play ball (ditto for whoever made that Obama witch doctor photoshop). People say dumb offensive stuff all the time, and it’s tiring and time-consuming to spend all your time denouncing people you’ve barely heard of, whom you’ve never voted for, whose magazine you’ve never read. I don’t see how we’re all responsible for it. I don’t see how it’s constructive for us to pretend that we are responsible for it. Unless the person has 10 million radio listeners and half the Village on his tip 24/7, or something like that, I just don’t give that much of a fuck.
Omnes Omnibus
Don Surber still has a blog?
Raven
Me too, fuck it all. Don’t mean nuthin.
Liquid
Good enough for government work.
That or The Right Way, The Wrong Way, or The Army Way.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Common sense, it’s a good thing.
BGinCHI
I agree, Doug, and I’d add: when it makes or affects policy, then it’s time to get serious about it. This shit about feelings isn’t unimportant, but if it doesn’t lead to a cultural or policy change, then it’s just white people problems.
If you say the phrase “Larry Flynt is a sexist,” you’re wasting your time. It’s not much more useful than “Rush Limbaugh is an asshole.” True, sure, but “Rush Limbaugh is the motive force behind destructive GOP politics” is a step in the right direction.
Raven
Noot on Mitt on Tweety:
“Mitt Romney is a lot like Eisenhower,” he declared at one point. “He is a very good organizer. He is a very methodical person. He is prepared to systematically do what he thinks is right for the country. And I think he might turn out to make a surprisingly good president.”
Asked later about the idea that Romney was making his personal wealth the chief case for his campaign, the former speaker replied: “That’s what George Washington would have said.”
MosesZD
Pretty much. Public figures getting trashed… I just don’t care.
OTOH, I think private figures, scientists, professionals asked to testify for Congress, as Friends of the Courts, etc., getting this treatment is bullshit. They’re, by-and-large not out their selling themselves for a buck or for power.
BTW, I’d love to see Bill Donahue (the Catholic League asshole) get this treatment. If I believed in hell, and I had the power, I’d reserve the hottest part for him. Fucking peodophile, child-raping apologist…
But I digress…
Politically Lost
This would describe my reaction to the episode more closely than the “rage” mentioned.
However, NOBODY should have to defend or apologize for whatever Larry Flint decides to print. There seems to be an attitude that people other than Flint need to take responsibility for what he’s done. That’s just wrong.
freelancer
Doug, you’ve always been more Napalm,
whereas Cole has been more Silly Putty.
I can’t take a third thread of this topic anymore. Last night, I kind of got caught up in a kerfuffle and catching up on sexism and misogyny in the secular/atheist movement. The MRA/anti-feminism bullshit backlash against growing awareness and suggested action taken to address harassment has been staggeringly disappointing as someone who feels part of a group that identifies primarily by a commitment to reason and rationality.
I don’t mind it so much on the political side because those who oppose us are comprised primarily of individuals like this.
rageahol
the people falling over themselves to “call out” Mr. Flynt are doing nothing but giving him oxygen. they clearly haven’t given a shit about anything else he published in the last 30 fucking years (and why should they?), because i havent seen them venting their spleens about it every time he does something offensive, which is often.
it’s just a bit odd that this comes up in response to a professional-victim’s shock-and-dismay at the extent of protected speech. especially since that can and will be used to undermine the war on women narrative, whose actual effects are far more wide-ranging, and far more hideous.
own-goaled again.
useful idiots.
Linda Featheringill
It would be nice if we could kill the activity of slut shaming any female you happen to disagree with, but that may not be possible. That’s been going on for a long, long time.
Revenge? Sure. Why not. Make assholes pay for being assholes. But what could we say about Flynt that hasn’t already been said?
Waynski
This, Doug. If you’re getting outraged about what someone says/posts who’s by his own definition “a clown” (i.e., Flynt) and not by someone who actually does haz power (Limbaugh), you’re chasing the shiny. And that’s what the powerful want. Not that Flynt’s in league with them, but it’s equally unhelpful to get overly annoyed about it. They feed on that kind of weakness. Divide and conquer.
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@Linda Featheringill:
Exactly!
The Thin Black Duke
Don’t worry, Jake–it’s Hustler.
Bip
Really? What about George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, South Carolina? What platform did he have, other than saying stupid racist, misogynistic shit on the twitters?
Steve in DC
I don’t find all of these things “the same”
1. Random idiot creates a stupid and offensive photoshop and passes it around: Who fucking cares? We can all do that and plenty of us like stupid stuff just for the dirty laugh.
2. Larry Flint\Bill Maher says\publishes\airs something extremely offensive: Sightly bigger deal as it’s major media doing it, but again who truly cares? These guys are setting out to be shocking, and NOBODY let’s them have any sort of impact on policy. Furthermore these guys go after people with power and fame who can defend themselves.
3. Rush crusades against a random student: Huge deal. The power dynamics are pretty bad here and people form policy based off what he does.
In general I think we are overly PC and sensitive and find this extremely negative. But there is a difference between a random person cracking polish jokes, a comedian doing it on the air, and the defacto leader of a political movement doing it.
Of course “both sides are the same blah blah blah”.
Steve in DC
@MosesZD
I’m pretty sure Flint has gone after the church. I seem to recall his depictions of Church figures fucking their mothers and other such crap was part of the lead up to him being shot. And that didn’t stop him either… he just kept on going.
Baud
I haven’t really followed this “controversy” because I too think it’s stupid. However, I don’t want to see conservatives portray Flint as a “liberal” without some push-back.
TheMightyTrowel
I guess i’ll jump in here too… outrage isn’t necessarily the emotion i feel but accusing people of being outraged, or feeling too strongly that something is offensive (see prev 2 threads), that reeks of classic tone-argument derailing.
As a woman who engages politically, it’s disheartening to see how quickly the communities around you can shrug and reduce you to a couple of damp orifi the second you voice an opinion out of step with theirs. I hate defending Palin, Bachmann and others because I hate what they bring to political life, but I do it because if we allow sexual shaming to be used against any woman, it’s open season on all women – we have no ground to stand on from whence to shout at the Limbaugh’s of this world.
Using sexualised imagery, vocabulary and threats (and let’s be honest here, ‘we don’t like what you say so we’re gonna shove a d–k in your mouth that you didn’t put there yourself’ is a threat)to shut down women’s political engagement is a toxic, but effective and highly traditional strategy. Fuck that, y’all.
gaz
Why doesn’t BJ just create a paypal bleg for hustler at this point?
fuckin’ hell
beltane
I am offended by Larry Flint because without him I would never have heard of S.E. Cupp. Damn you, Larry Flint.
JenJen
I find the photoshop of S.E. Cupp offensive, and unnecessary, but as DougJ said, Flint’s gonna Flint.
I’m not enraged or freaked out about stuff like this, ever. I always think it’s unfortunate, and juvenile, and why can’t we have nice things, but I know this much for sure: down the road sometime soon, some influential GOPer is going to say something outrageously sexist and offensive, and nobody’s going to be able to get a word in because we’re going to get buried in false equivalencies again, and this Cupp thing is just another log for the fire.
I’m sure others have pointed this out already, but let it be known that from now on, it is just zombie lie fact that liberals didn’t have any kind of problem with the SE Cupp Hustler photo no matter what and it’s exactly the same as with Bill Maher and all the liberals, so who are they to complain when blah blah blah.
GeneJockey
@gaz:
gaz, I think at this point, we’re dealing with a Heisenberg situation.
Bip
I guess I just don’t get it. How hard is it to say “Yes, that picture is misogynistic, Hustler is terrible, Larry Flynt is an asshole and sure as hell doesn’t speak for me” in this situation? Why are so many people making excuses for why it’s okay to use sex as a weapon against women as long as it’s a woman you don’t like?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I did not know that, but I can say it changes my minimum high regard for that smug, preening fuck not one iota. At least the late Monsignor Punkinhead could play the regular guy for five minutes or so if you didn’t know anything about him or politics.
cokane
Well said.
Plus you are moving the focus to what people say away from what powerful people do or have not done.
GeneJockey
@Bip:
This is pretty much what everyone’s saying, though there are some folks trying really hard to ignore that fact.
burnspbesq
I’d be willing to bet a small sum of money that Obama will laugh when he sees that photo. It’s soooo far over the top.
Crazy people do crazy things. Not much can be done about that.
Just Some Fuckhead
What the hell is wrong with a chick with a dick in her mouth?? Has this site gone completely gay?
Evolving Deep Southerner
You got Tarantino on the brain, son.
Litlebritdifrnt
Rather awesome twitter connect via Corey Bookers timeline
Followed by
Amazing what twitter can do
Raven
@Evolving Deep Southerner: sup dawg?
TheMightyTrowel
@Just Some Fuckhead: yup. everyone here. gay for you.
Evolving Deep Southerner
@Raven: Living the dream in Raleigh, my friend. Is the Classic City still standing?
Jethro Troll
Offensive?
Corner Stone
Speaking of rageful things:
US drone strike kills 10 in North Waziristan: officials
“The officials said most of those killed were Uzbek insurgents. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to talk to the media.”
Please notice the link describes it as “five” militants killed, but the summary says “10” alleged militants killed.
But hey, “most” of those killed were militants.
John - A Motley Moose
I, for one, am outraged. Larry Flynt deserves to be ostracized by all decent people. Oh, wait…
Rt
I know nothing about SE Cupp, but DJ could just be my Cooksferry Queen.
Raven
@Evolving Deep Southerner: Yup, in that wonderful time when everyone is gone.
agorabum
@Bip: People jumped on George Tierney Jr, because that was having fun at the expense of a jerk. It started small by observing that a douche (GT Jr) was a douche. But when the douche asked the internets to stop calling him a douche just because he was a douche, and threatening legal actions for printing what he had actually said (truth-libel), that’s when the intertrons decided to collectively mock him.
Larry Flynt has a much better understanding of free speech rights than Mr. George Tierney…
ShadeTail
I think DougJ and Mr. Cole are both right. Yeah, this gets a yawn and “what would you expect from them” reaction from me. Still, it can’t be denied that it’s seriously wrong to deal with women in that manner.
joeyess
Fucking finally. Thank you, Dougj, Head of Infidelity.
Context. It’s im-fucking-portant.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Bip:
Fix’t.
Maybe they’re customers and they want Larry to know that they are outraged about this. Larry has finally crossed a line that he shouldn’t have. If they’re not his customers then maybe they want to let his customers know that they are outraged.
Either way, the guys will still buy Larry’s crap because they pay for pictures of chicks with dicks and Larry delivers! I bet Larry’s circulation expands after this latest free advertising binge.
PhilK
I haven’t seen the original allegedly-disgusting photo – just the ones with stuff blurred out. It looks pretty lame – if I hadn’t read all about it here, I’d guess she had a toothbrush in her mouth.
I think some people are getting bamboozled here. I don’t feel anybody owes anybody else an apology for what Larry Flynt does.
Jeff Spender
Сфтэе
Oops! Heh…Russian keyboard (talking to my fiance…)
Anyway, can’t we just agree that young people like me still feel that they have to fight every battle because we’re still idealistic?
I’m probably going to have this attitude soon enough, but I don’t think it makes me a useful idiot because I want to talk about this in the vein of sexism against women for being in the public sphere.
Bip
@agorabum: Sure, I get that it got a lot funnier when he flipped out at the internet calling him a douche. But it still just started as a post saying “Look, this guy is a douche, this is the kind of bullshit women get thrown at them when they get involved in politics”. It wasn’t a statement on a public figure or a leader of a political movement – it was just an example of sexist, douchey behavior. I don’t understand why people are so apathetic or in some cases even defending this instance of sexist douchebaggery and not the other.
rageahol
@JenJen:
see, that’s the thing. This is going to be used as a cudgel (and from the looks of it, it is already) regardless of what people do or say about it. standing with ms. cupp is not the answer, because you give fuel to the blazing victimhood fire that burns in the souls of movement conservatives, AND you make it look like you give a shit what larry flynt prints.
if you ignore it, then the only people complaining about it will be movement conservatives. rather than the worst case, that is the BEST case scenario. the conservatives are always pissing and moaning about porn anyways, so it fits the existing narrative. the nominal left avoids giving a shit, avoids implicitly endorsing a jackass, avoids contributing to the victim-gasm, while the right continues to mewl about how unfair and wrong it is that porn exists.
handy
DougJ, trolling BJ since forever.
Bip
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I didn’t realize progressivism meant looking at the world with all its injustices and stupidity just to shrug and say “What do you expect?” I thought it meant standing up to entrenched power indifferences and calling out bigotry wherever appropriate.
Just because something isn’t surprising doesn’t mean it’s not worth fighting.
JenJen
@rageahol: Pretty much. But ignore it or not, SE Cupp is still gonna come up every single time a GOP-type says something authentically outrageous. That’s about all the thought I’m willing to devote to this topic: predicting the utterly predictable.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
I don’t blame anyone if they don’t give a fuck about this story. Not giving a fuck about it is a perfectly rational and productive response.
But if you don’t give a fuck about something, you should also not give a fuck when you notice that someone else does give a fuck. It shouldn’t be a problem for you that someone else gives a fuck. You shouldn’t give a fuck.
Guess what, if you felt the need to tell everyone else that they shouldn’t give a fuck either, and that it bothers you to see how much they give a fuck, I have to conclude that you give more of a fuck than you’re letting on.
I don’t give a fuck about football. Yet, somehow when I see football threads, I’m not compelled to jump in and say, “Why do you people give a fuck about this? Don’t you know you shouldn’t give a fuck, like me?” If I did, people could fairly conclude that I do, in fact, give a fuck.
tl;dr version: If you don’t care, then don’t care. If you’re talking about it, you care. Don’t be disingenuous about this.
Stuck in the Funhouse
This country gives wide legal berth to political speech of all sorts of nasty and demeaning content. And unlike in other western democracies, almost all of it is covered under the 1st amendment, safe legal harbor of political players, that anything goes.
Aside from the especial nastyness of both the Obama witchdoctor photoshop, as well as photoshopped pics of a conservative political activist, I tend to support our version of free speech in the pol arena, say rather than the British versions of slander and libel.
But what really pisses me off in the case of Ms. Cupps, was the fact that it was commercialized for profit by Sleazeball Flynt, under a guise of pol speech. If he had put in on a blog, or some other political venue, then ugly as it was, it was still protected pol speech. But he didn’t do that. He included it in his for profit porn magazine, to be sold as sex and porn, and being solely manufactured porn product, and without Ms. Cupps permission. That, should be against the law, if it isn’t, and I would support a successful lawsuit by Ms Cupps used for such purpose. Against her will.
But people telling me my emo isn’t sufficient enough, after me saying it was offensive, is all bullshit by moralizing twits trying to elevate themselves somehow. And passing judgment on my ‘progressive/liberal creds. Fuck that kind of shit.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Bip:
Then go after Flynt if that is the progressive bone you want to chase but IMO it’s nothing more than a distraction. We can all agree that Larry is one sick and twisted dude, right? We can also agree that he has a right to do this, just like you have the right to make him feel financial pain for doing so. That’s the way it works today. Rush ‘apologized’ to Fluke because of the financial pain, not because he was sincere.
See if you can make Larry hurt the same way and get back to me after you fail.
That is, unless you are going to cancel your Hustler subscription. If so, then kudos to you!
gocart mozart
Look, if you ask me to sign something that says Larry Flynt should apologize, I’ll sign it, put it to a vote, I’ll vote for it, but what I won’t do is play ball (ditto for whoever made that Obama witch doctor photoshop).
Lev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I lost any respect for the guy after he couldn’t say “yes” when Dave Letterman asked him if he believed in climate change. Useless.
Raven
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Who gives a fuck what you “conclude”?
jheartney
Larry Flynt is powerful? In what universe?
Ms. Cupp is a regular on Fox News. Flynt is a legendary dirtbag and porn magnate. AFAIKS She’s probably higher up on the influence ladder than he is.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Raven: You really gotta wonder about someone that goes on and on about not liking football.
Heliopause
Interesting you say this, as Balloon Juice has had epic threads the last couple of years about inconsequential idiots saying/doing racially questionable things.
gocart mozart
Have the crack whores who spread their legs in his magazine weighed in on the matter yet?
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Do we get football threads where Cole screams at us for not being sufficiently enraged by whatever the Ravens or Patriots just did?
The answer is “no”, right? I’m not 100% confident, though…he’s never done that, has he?
jheartney
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
Old saying: “Never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.” Never truer than here. Flynt would get more out of a lawsuit than Cupp, even if she won.
Just Some Fuckhead
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity:
Hard to say with John. He’s like a ping pong ball, flying every which way.
JohnK
So Limbaugh’s is spoken in whispers (what higher praise can there be). Do we have a Richard Thompson fan in the house?
Stuck in the Funhouse
@jheartney:
You are probly right. Being a pol activist, she is, I suspect, counting her chips as we speak, delivered by liberal angst somehow turning Larry Flynt into a liberal lion gone off the rails, with her pol opponents forming a nifty round firing squad to boot.
Just Some Fuckhead
I bet Larry Flynt is one of the Jane Hamshers of the Left.
gocart mozart
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
Actually, what Flynt did is protected speech.
See Hustler Magazine, Inc. v. Falwell – 485 U.S. 46 (1988)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0485_0046_ZO.html
Bip
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I don’t have to “go after” him. All I have to do is point out that he exists, that he’s terrible, and that his comments fit right into a comfortable pattern of using sex to slur female politicians, which has taken about a whole five minutes on this site so far. That’s all any of the previously mentioned bloggers have done – pointed out that he exists, that he did a sexist thing, and that that’s bad. It’s not that hard.
@jheartneye: “legendary dirtbag and porn magnate” is a hell of a lot more power than I personally have. And yes, there’s a power indifference when your political opponents’ first instinct is to reduce you to a sexual object to diminish the worth of anything you have to say, just like there’s a power indifference when your political opponents’ first instinct is to reduce you to a racial caricature to diminish the worth of anything you have to say. That’s how privilege works.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Raven: Not you, clearly.
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity: I don’t know. If he did, I wouldn’t notice. Because I don’t care.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@gocart mozart:
Oh well, that is that then. Seemed like such a good idea.
kth
Flynt was instrumental in running Newt Gingrich out of office, as well as his successor Bob Livingston. Also outed smarmy moralist Henry Hyde as an adulterer, iirc. So I feel like, since as a liberal I benefited from Flynt’s muckraking in the past, it’s pretty important to denounce this latest bit of ugliness. If it were a porn merchant less identified with opposition to the right wing, maybe I wouldn’t care as much (maybe not).
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Bip:
You’re stating the obvious, do you feel better now? Did you accomplish anything other than build blog cred among those of a like mind?
No. All you did was draw attention to it. If “the left” had ignored this then down the road every time some winger dragged it out they would say ‘What the fuck are you going on about? Something in Hustler offended you? DUH!!’ No, now the left can respond with ‘Oh yeah, that was horrible but I told some blog that it was bad and that Larry didn’t speak for me!!’
Yeah, that’s a winning answer.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Bip has group inoculated us.
Yay Bip!
reflectionephemeral
As to the relatively peripheral matter of Limbaugh’s influence, we should recall that Bush pere et fils called in to wish Rush a happy anniversary a bit ago (radio-show-related anniversary, not re: any of his marriages), and that Bush Jr. appeared on Rush’s show as part of his book tour. The interview “was, not surprisingly, marked by excessive flattery and deference and a complete lack of follow-up questions.”
It’s not just the lowly GOP congressmen who need to bow and scrape before this guy. It goes all the way to the top, and all the way to the ostensibly sane Bush Sr.
Bip
@Odie Hugh Manatee: What’s the alternative? Am I supposed to ignore it? Pretend it doesn’t exist? Decide it doesn’t matter? Will that make it stop, if I just avoid talking about any instance of misogyny when supporting the target doesn’t directly benefit me?
David Koch
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Larry Flynt isn’t a racist like baby jane http://static.flickr.com/98/205223068_c28b83fbe2_o.jpg
slag
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity: If I remember correctly, the entirety of Cole’s first argument was pretty much “she’s right” about this: “Using sexualized attacks to silence women is antithetical to the struggle for reproductive rights.” Hardly worthy of controversy. And yet, it generated controversy. As do so many seemingly uncontroversial statements that involve sexism and racism. Who’s being overly PC now, DougJ?
sick of this
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
You’ve made your argument, repeatedly.
Do you feel better now? Did you accomplish anything other than build blog cred among those of a like mind?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I hate shots.
@Bip:
If you’re going to do this then be prepared to do it daily, it surrounds us. Don’t just do it when it’s cool to do so, get out there and actively fight it every single day.
Because anything less means that this is just so much lip service designed to make you feel good about yourself right now.
eemom
The reason it’s impossible to have an intelligent discussion of this is that people keep confusing unrelated issues. Maybe there is something to be said for law school after all. Who’d’a thunk.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Since when is stating the obvious a problem? It doesn’t seem to bother anyone when we’re saying that Republicans are poor economists or that Mitt Romney is a sociopath. Those are acceptably obvious things to say. But pointing at some misogyny and saying, “That’s misogyny and it’s bad stuff,” is unacceptably obvious? What’s the big difference?
I also like your idea that disgusting ideas just go away if we ignore them. That’s adorable.
@slag: No, the real problem with Cole’s post was that it was so uncontroversial that people got offended by its banality. As we all know, the worst thing any writer can do is say something agreeable.
slag
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
This is true. Remember that time Cole called Balko a “glibertarian”? Holy hell did he catch it from the commentariat for that one. I had to close my eyes.
jheartney
@Bip:
But Flynt didn’t attack you, he attacked SE Cupp.
suzanne
I don’t get why so many of y’all are so willing to just say, “Larry Flynt’s gross, whaddyagonnado?” and leave it at that.
Feminists have pretty much been shouting from the rooftops that this sort of thing being socially acceptable (and yes, even in Hustler, this is apparently pretty socially acceptable) actively harms all women. I don’t give a fuck about S. E. Cupp. This isn’t about harming her. It’s about harming me, and political figures who happen to hold opinions while female, and all women in our society. So can we please dispense with the BS that these sort of battles aren’t worth fighting, merely because someone that we don’t agree with was the lightning rod?
Westboro Baptist Church is gross, with a great deal of regularity, and yet, somehow, in the middle of all the talking about my pets and football and cooking, I manage to find the time to say so. Jesus.
suzanne
I don’t get why so many of y’all are so willing to just say, “Larry Flynt’s gross, whaddyagonnado?” and leave it at that.
Feminists have pretty much been shouting from the rooftops that this sort of thing being socially acceptable (and yes, even in Hustler, this is apparently pretty socially acceptable) actively harms all women. I don’t give a fuck about S. E. Cupp. This isn’t about harming her. It’s about harming me, and political figures who happen to hold opinions while female, and all women in our society. So can we please dispense with the BS that these sort of battles aren’t worth fighting, merely because someone that we don’t agree with was the lightning rod?
Westboro Baptist Church is gross, with a great deal of regularity, and yet, somehow, in the middle of all the talking about my pets and football and cooking, I manage to find the time to say so. Jesus.
Raven
Did you know if you click the little blue arrows it takes you to the top of the thread?
lacp
If I were outraged enough about this incident to do something about it, I’d get off my fat ass and do it.
Being outraged in a blog post (or even more irrelevant, being outraged in a blog comment)is not “doing something.” Outrage = disapproval + wanking.
Raven
@suzanne: twice no less
Stuck in the Funhouse
@slag:
It created controversy when moral scolds, like say you, expressed their dissatisfaction that those saying the image was offensive, were not emoting enough, or outraged enough, or articulate enough in their outrage, to suit you. Handing out grades to some expected level of mind read liberal emo purity, or something. And now measuring some perceived opposition to Cole as some kind of guide post to some unliberal outcome.
Cacti
I heard the point made on yesterday’s thread, “How is Larry Flynt different from George Tierney, Jr. of Greenville, South Carolina”?
George Tierney, Jr. has no economic incentive to say what he did. Exposing him brings him personal embarrassment.
Larry Flynt is a shock-merchant. Exposing his latest offense brings him publicity and $$$.
Larry Flynt wants you to talk about how he “crossed the line”. George Tierney does not.
lacp
@Raven: I’ll be damned. Learn something new every day.
Raven
Shit, the cat rescue thread is dying.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, is it?
Djur
What exactly made this sexist material in Hustler so notorious that it got coverage on Balloon Juice, Sandra Fluke responded to it, etc.? The only time I’ve actually looked at a copy of Hustler it had Tipper Gore dressed up like a prostitute (ah, the ’90s). I’ve heard tell of similar content for basically any person that Larry Flynt does not like — obviously, it goes back to the infamous Falwell parody.
I am legitimately interested in why I am hearing about this. Where did the story break? How did it get legs? Did Flynt promote it himself? I’m just not used to hearing reporting on the contents of pornography. The previous time I recall was Hustler’s Palin porn, and that was heavily promoted by Hustler.
Lev
I’m all for awareness, and I don’t need to be convinced about the amount of shit that women have to put up with that men don’t. But this is politics. In politics, if you want something to stick, you have to find the right targets to attack, which is to say powerful ones, ones people know, ones who have influence and respect. Then you get them to hit back, which elevates you, and you can start to do damage. Rush Limbaugh’s Sandra Fluke comments, perfect example. He just couldn’t let it go, kept on being an ass, and it hurt him badly. Larry Flynt, bad example. Sure, he’s something of a celebrity, and he has a magazine that I’m sure is completely flopping financially just like Playboy is, but he’s a terrible target. This guy’s magazine has been reducing women to sets of orifices for decades, making the cheesy outfits and themes of Playboy seem humanizing by comparison (and only by comparison). It’s fish in a barrel. What’s more, by making him a legitimate topic for debate, you elevate him.
slag
@Stuck in the Funhouse: You know what’s cute? The fact that you don’t know when you’re being scolded and when you’re not. Or, on second thought, maybe you do know.
Here’s a hint: If you didn’t do it, you really shouldn’t raise your hand and say you didn’t do it. The only person accusing you is you, jackass.
Cacti
@suzanne:
So what do you recommend?
Social censure? Good luck shaming a porn publisher.
A boycott? Most people don’t buy Hustler to begin with.
Honus
@TheMightyTrowel: I agree. However, Flynt hasn’t done anything more misogynistic or offensive than Ted Nugent does repeatedly and I don’t recall Obama thanking Flynt for his endorsement or Flynt appearing at rallies with joe Biden. Or Flynt being made an honorary member of congress like rush limbaugh. Flynt is a pornographer and doesn’t pretend to be respectable. I don’t see a lot of powerful democrats lionizing and kowtowing to Larry Flynt.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@DougJ- I could hardly stop laughing reading this, because I couldn’t get through those lines without hearing Dennis Green’s voice.
suzanne
@Cacti: I recommend that we say that this sort of joke is not acceptable in polite society, and then not make/tolerate similar jokes in the future from anyone else. This isn’t about Larry fucking Flynt or stupid S. E. Cupp. It is about elevating the level of discourse. I am at a loss why a bunch of people who call themselves progressive don’t think that’s worth doing.
shep
Well Cole was a conservative. General disgust seems sufficient for your typical DFH.
OmerosPeanut
Thank you. Someone finally remembers that in a population over 300 million, if only 0.00001% of people are complete dickwads with an internet connection on any week, this still means more than 30 “outrages” that we’re supposed to get riled up about every single week.
Let’s save ourselves the stress and focus on the dickwads whose actions actually matter.
Just Some Fuckhead
@suzanne: http://www.change.org/petitions/stand-with-s-e-cupp-against-hustler-s-misogyny
Stuck in the Funhouse
@slag:
So now we can’t comment on what is being said on this blog, without some kind of personal standing of the bullshit being dumped in general.
It is true that I try hard these days to stay out of blog fights, unless addressed to me. But sometimes the bullshit just gets too much and the persons delivering it start making generalizations that need to be confronted.
You were asked several times last thread to provide evidence of your allegations of some commenters claiming what happened was okay by them, and you couldn’t provide those, so the mind reading and grading commenced of general impressions, signaling some kind of backdoor approval of what Flynt did, via some subjective contrived standard of insufficient outrage beyond people simply saying it was nasty and offensive.
SteveM
I’m unable to feel rage because within 24 hours (12 hours?) of this hitting the Net, everyone across the political spectrum had spat in Flynt’s face and offered Cupp a hug. \
There are millions of fucked-over people who don’t get any backup, ever. I’m going to concern myself with them. I think everyone else on the Internet has this Cupp thing covered.
Raven
@suzanne: Polite society? Level of discourse? Wow. I am all over the idea that this kind of stuff is wrong but good luck with that.
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@SteveM:
You just don’t get it, do you?
Just Some Fuckhead
Or hell, we could shoot him again.
handy
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity:
What is it here?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@suzanne:
Using Larry Flynt’s stunt as a teaching moment? I’m sorry but that’s just hilarious. I am as disgusted as any good person would be, but I just don’t see this as a teachable moment. Not when Larry is profiting from it. There was no ‘lesson learned’ here, thus there is nothing to teach. Pornographers are going to do disgusting things to women, it’s what they do. In our country, they have the right to do that.
You can rail against it all you want but you may as well be shouting into a canyon.
I do wish it was otherwise. If wishes were fishes…
GeneJockey
@suzanne:
Largely because nobody has come up with an answer to ‘Whaddyagonnado?”, apart from ‘Get upset about it.’
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Dude, nobody is measuring your outrage level and scolding you about it.
The scolding here started when people got angry at Cole for writing about this. He condemned Larry Flynt, and this pissed people off. Why? Why should anyone be pissed off, annoyed, or bothered in the slightest by this? Why didn’t that thread sit at 30 comments? Why is the argument over whether or not it’s ok to condemn Larry Flynt for doing something despicable still going on? Why would anyone feel hassled by this?
Why did so many people take Cole’s first post as some kind of attack on them? He attacked Larry Flynt and his defenders. If that shoe doesn’t fit, then quit trying to crowbar it onto your foot.
jheartney
@suzanne: Hustler Mag is to become polite society? You are ambitious.
Raven
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Citation please?
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@handy:
I don’t know, do you?
Cassidy
The number of people who would be hurt by the policies that Cupp goes on television and supports far outweighs her little fee-fees. Oooh. She was photoshopped with a dick in her mouth. That’s so much worse than all those women without OB/Gyn care because of people like her. That’s so much worse than people losing unemployment and students in debt for life for daring to get an education and ….so on and so forth. Fuck her with a photoshopped dick.
suzanne
@Raven: The only way to achieve that level of civility in our discourse is to model it ourselves, and to denounce/shun the offenders. (ALL the offenders.) Considering how ingrained misogyny is in our everyday lives, it’s certainly a long process, but there’s no reason it can’t or shouldn’t be done. (Unless one is a “progressive” dude who just HATES being PC, which is something I read on this blog with alarming frequency.) It used to be okay to say and do a lot of things that aren’t acceptable now (and rightly so), so it’s not like it’s impossible.
Bip
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Why would you think it’s ‘cool’ do to do right here, right now? These threads are full of condescension towards anyone who thinks it’s worth saying that it’s wrong to use sexualized attacks against women you disagree with. That’s the only reason I’m posting here now.
@jheartney: I’m female. He attacked SE Cupp by pointing to her gender to say that she’s not worth anything beyond what sexual pleasure she could bring to him. That affects me, because even if he agrees with me on contraception, the moment I disagreed with him on anything else he could use the same attack against me. And if such attacks are widely considered permissible in the public arena, anyone else who disagreed with me could use the same attack as well. Attacks on sexual desirability, sexual proclivities, and strangely in many cases both at once are pretty much par for the course for women who say controversial things in public. That’s why I want to reinforce the idea that using sexual attacks women is an inappropriate and cowardly thing to do.
@lacp: Oh, okay, I give up. Blog comments are worthless and there was absolutely no point to you posting that just now. I assume you’ll quit the threat to revel in your ennui for the next few weeks.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Raven: You… you don’t actually know what those words mean, do you?
Is it one of the questions that’s supposed to be cited? I just made those up. Source: my fucking brain.
I’m afraid I don’t have a published source regarding whether or not Stuck is being monitored by the PC police. So… I guess you got me?
???
lacp
@GeneJockey: Well, JSF @103 has a link to a change.org petition. Probably not nearly as effective as wagging one’s finger at fellow blog-commenters, but, hell, you go with the outrage you have, not the outrage you wish you had.
Cassidy
@suzanne: My honest opinion? It hasn’t worked. Liberals and progressives have for years tried to “elevate the discourse”. Every dumbass with an opinion got a seat at the table to say their peace even when we knew they were stupid. And then we didn’t acknowledge they were stupid, but said some mealy mouthed bullshit about “how that may be their opinion, but blah, blah, blah”. If we’re honest, we helped create this both side have valid views bullshit we see on the news. We refused to believe we were dealing with cretins and mouth-breathers until they took over Congress.
So, honestly, fuck that shit. We let them when the public battles for way too damn long and it’s time to get dirty.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
So who was defending Larry Flynt, directly? I was sawing logs for the first thread, but the second one, what I saw was folks like you being asked to back up claims of commenters defending Flynt for what he did. Maybe it is there, but I didn’t see it. Folks were simply saying it was wrong and ugly, but not at the top of their outrage list. For whatever reason. And complaining about giving credence to Flynt being some kind of person on our side. Cole made the accusation that some liberals were not as outraged as he would like them to be, or think they should be, and dragging the pic of Obama in as a witchdoctor for comparison, that some folks rightfully called bullshit on.
So again, tell me where people have “sided” with Flynt? Or have said they like what he did, or think it was justified, or not offensive. The rest is just contrived standards set for the purpose of argument with straw men.
lacp
@Bip: Have you written a letter to the editor of your local newspaper yet? Have you called your local congressperson’s office asking for a statement? Have you even signed the online petition referenced by JSF (note: I have, and I’m not even a self-righteous properly outraged asshole like you)? Or do you think you’re speaking truth to power, that the innocence of youth is challenging the callous cynicism of age…in fucking blog comments? Get a grip.
Raven
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Better than tell him, cite the passage, Baron Douche.
too late, Miami wins, I sleep.
Heliopause
@suzanne:
Interesting you say this, as Balloon Juice has had epic threads in recent years about whether ALL the offenders, even inconsequential idiots, should command our attention. Interesting that you say this and that Doug has come out for “who cares.” I mean, given the recent history of Balloon Juice and all.
handy
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity:
LOL goodnight DougJ.
J.W. Hamner
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
I have no idea what you said in last night’s thread, as I did not participate, but why exactly shouldn’t I be able to pass a moral judgement on you, or any other, for your reaction to this particular incident?
I’ve certainly had liberals accuse me of not sufficiently caring about “the lives of brown people” when I’ve not denounced various Obama with sufficient fervor. I would say that’s their right to express that opinion, and, indeed, it’s a powerful indictment that has made me think twice.
Misogyny is a huge and pervasive problem that only gets worse when people like you and DougJ go “meh” even when you put “let me be clear that I disapprove of it…” in front. If that picture doesn’t piss you off, then I accuse you of not having your priorities straight. Is it surprising that a misogynistic enterprise made a misogynist political statement? No. But can I judge you harshly for not being outraged nonetheless? Yes, absolutely.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: I never claimed that anyone was defending Flynt, so that’s a question you’ll have to ask someone else. I never claimed anyone was siding with Flynt either, at least nobody here. I honestly don’t understand why you think that’s my position.
Go back and read the first post. Here, I’ll help you. Tell me where he attacked anyone for not being outraged enough? Yet this post, which I’m assured is agreed upon by everyfuckingbody, got people angry. The comments are full of people who are mad that Cole would even talk about it. Why?
Why are you mad? Why is anyone mad about this? Someone in the other thread likened what Cole did to condemning puppy-kicking. You know what, I seriously doubt that a post condemning puppy-kicking would garner so much anger (or annoyance or whatever is motivating the blowback).
I’m not trolling you, man. I honestly want to understand this, because I just fucking don’t.
Bip
@lacp: Then what are you complaining about? I only wanted to address the people who decided sexism didn’t matter as long as they didn’t like the victim – if you don’t think that’s right either I don’t know why you’re laughing at the people in comment threads who say so. If you think comment threads are worthless I’m doubly confused about why you’re here.
Cassidy
@J.W. Hamner:
So this is what you cancel your Hustler subscription over? They grossed me out over a decade ago.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Raven: Um, ok. My citation is Cole’s first post. There’s a blue clicky-click over to the right if you scroll up. You put the arrow-man over it and press that button on the knobby buttony thing. No, the other button. The button on the left that’s next to the wheely thing.
I say again, ???
lacp
@Bip: Not really complaining, commenting on what I saw – if I have complaints about something on a blog, I go elsewhere. Don’t think there actually are too many people here that are the ones you indicated you’re directing your comments to. And I’m here for the entertainment, the same reason I go to most blogs.
I do want to apologize to you for my intemperate language; I don’t usually do that. Sorry.
danielx
Flynt is exhibiting about the same level of civility as that man from Greenville South Carolina. I thought GeorgetierneyofGreenvilleSouthCarolina was an asshole, and Larry Flynt is just as much of one. More so, since Larry Flynt has made a career and become wealthy by being a sexist asshole. I’ve commented on other threads to the effect that ‘we’re not them’, and Larry Flynt doesn’t speak for me. But…realistically?
An apology from Larry Flynt? Don’t hold your breath.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I am annoyed at both pictures, and the people who made and distributed them, because they keep us from talking about what is important. There have been nearly 400 comments related to these pictures while a recall election of real importance is going on in Wisconsin.
I don’t forward the Obama picture and I wouldn’t forward the Cupp picture. I think we should boycott Hustler and all its advertisers. Does someone want to figure out who those advertisers are.
(About 15 years ago I bought some playboy magazines from a man at a garage sale. They were dated in the mid 70s. In one of them was a picture of Terry Bradshaw advertising hair care products.)
J.W. Hamner
@Cassidy:
Hustler a red herring. We’ve had multiple examples of allegedly progressive men in recent years either making misogynistic comments about female political opponents or looking away and whistling while other people make them. This is not a small deal, even if this time it’s Hustler and not Bill Maher or Ed Schultz.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Sandra Fluck was on LO’s show with Martin Bashir hosting. Sandra had the bully pulpit and she didn’t take the chance to tear into Flynt! Nope, all that time on there and Sandra was silent when American women needed her the most.
NOW it’s time to get angry!
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Was she asked about it? No? Snark fail. Try again.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Can’t say that I’m mad about anything other than Flynt manufacturing porn using a woman who did not give permission for him to use to make money.
And I already listed some of the complaints people had in addition to condemning Flynt, which I’m fairly sure most everyone did, but having the second post for the purpose of ridiculing imagined commentariot persons defending what Flynt did, or exhibiting some contrived standard on how much and why they weren’t condemning Flynt as much as Cole would like. Though with that many comments, a few could be expected to, but I didn’t see it, nor can anyone link to them.
What I saw was commenters condemniing what Flynt did, but folks expressing also their separate dislike of Ms. Cupps politics. Which I think is in bounds, and a mitigation toward any personal sympathy they may have for Cupps as a victim of Flynt. Those are separate things, imo, and that lack of personal sympathy is not a statement that should be conflated with any judgment concerning disapproval of what Flynt did.
Or they can’t stand Cupps, but also at the same time think the image was a bad thing in and of itself.
suzanne
@Cassidy:
The above is an example of the kind of thing that Larry Flynt’s antics help to make acceptable.
Cassidy
@J.W. Hamner: I get that, and I understand the misogyny claims, but I also think that we don’t live in a black and white world. Cupp’s sexuality, being a young, pretty girl, is why she’s trotted out on stage as a conservative.
Daniel Tosh does a bit in his stand up, that I think is interesting. He brings up the phrase “there is no excuse for domestic violence”. Then he goes into you’ve come home, one kids dead on the floor and she’s holding the other underwater, is it okay to smack the shit out of her then. It’s a funny bit, told by a guy who revels in his dickitude. But for me it does bring up some valid points. If a female pundit/politician, etc. uses their sexuality to espouse viewpoints that will harm a large majority of women who are already under attack, why do we give a fuck about this one?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I can’t believe Bashir missed his opportunity to take Fluke to task for talking about those Hustler pics on Twitter. She should have known better than to mention it at all, since talking about that pic is a fucking horrible thing to do. Apparently.
Seriously, where in the fuck is all this angst coming from? WHY WAS COLE WRONG TO TALK ABOUT THE PIC IN THE FIRST PLACE? And don’t give me some weak-tea horseshit about how Cole’s C-list blog gave too much attention to the country’s most notorious publisher.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Bip:
The problem is timing. One of my favorite sayings is Timing is everything. It is and the Republicans are experts are pricking the left and getting them ‘out of time’. This is one of those occasions. I understand the outrage but embracing that outrage right now is interpreted by the right as embracing Flynt. Rather than pointing out the obvious about Flynt, stating that this is disgusting and expected from scum like him, leaving it at that, the left has to rush out and fall all over themselves over in decrying it.
As if he is one of their own.
While the right points and laughs at their stupidity.
@J.W. Hamner:
Does Obama have to be asked about something before he will speak about it while at the Bully Pulpit(TM)?
No, I think not.
Cassidy
@suzanne: Really? This is where we’re drawing the line? Several years of bigotry and comparing Michelle Obama to an ape and barely coded calls for violence, but we’re going to circle our wagons around this one?
J.W. Hamner
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
Eh, there was one the 5th comment of the thread. And here’s another agreeing that it’s ok if it’s a conservative since they don’t get mad when it happens to a liberal.
See suzanne above for a one in this very thread.
It doesn’t really take a whole lot of looking.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Well, you said you skipped the comments of the first post. Which is fine, they were shit.
Cole was responding to the assholes in that thread. If you’re not one of those, he wasn’t talking about you.
Cacti
@Cassidy:
Not just that, but we’re going to demand that Larry Flynt elevate his level of discourse, and by Gawd, he will capitulate.
Somebody shoot me in the face.
Bip
@lacp: You’re right, while I have seen people saying she deserved it for being anti-choice most people I’ve seen here have just said it doesn’t matter because everyone knows Hustler is run by assholes. I guess my point is it’s frustrating to watch people who should be on my side act like sexism is not worth calling out because it’s the status quo – I feel like we should all be in agreement that it’s wrong, and it’s aggravating when people take the time to post comments on a blog saying it’s not worth the time to care enough to at least say “that’s wrong”.
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Uhhh, how is “stating that this is disgusting and expected from scum like him” not “decrying it”?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Well, you said you skipped the comments of the first post. Which is fine, they were shit.
Cole was responding to the assholes in that thread. If you’re not one of those, he wasn’t talking about you.
Bip
@lacp: You’re right, while I have seen people saying she deserved it for being anti-choice most people I’ve seen here have just said it doesn’t matter because everyone knows Hustler is run by assholes. I guess my point is it’s frustrating to watch people who should be on my side act like sexism is not worth calling out because it’s the status quo – I feel like we should all be in agreement that it’s wrong, and it’s aggravating when people take the time to post comments on a blog saying it’s not worth the time to care enough to at least say “that’s wrong”.
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Uhhh, how is “stating that this is disgusting and expected from scum like him” not “decrying it”?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Well, you said you skipped the comments of the first post. Which is fine, they were shit.
Cole was responding to the assholes in that thread. If you’re not one of those, he wasn’t talking about you.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Because this isn’t a porn blog?
Bip
@lacp: You’re right, while I have seen people saying she deserved it for being anti-choice most people I’ve seen here have just said it doesn’t matter because everyone knows Hustler is run by assholes. I guess my point is it’s frustrating to watch people who should be on my side act like sexism is not worth calling out because it’s the status quo – I feel like we should all be in agreement that it’s wrong, and it’s aggravating when people take the time to post comments on a blog saying it’s not worth the time to care enough to at least say “that’s wrong”.
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Uhhh, how is “stating that this is disgusting and expected from scum like him” not “decrying it”?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Well, you said you skipped the comments of the first post. Which is fine, they were shit.
Cole was responding to the assholes in that thread. If you’re not one of those, he wasn’t talking about you.
Bip
@lacp: You’re right, while I have seen people saying she deserved it for being anti-choice most people I’ve seen here have just said it doesn’t matter because everyone knows Hustler is run by assholes. I guess my point is it’s frustrating to watch people who should be on my side act like sexism is not worth calling out because it’s the status quo – I feel like we should all be in agreement that it’s wrong, and it’s aggravating when people take the time to post comments on a blog saying it’s not worth the time to care enough to at least say “that’s wrong”.
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Uhhh, how is “stating that this is disgusting and expected from scum like him” not “decrying it”?
suzanne
@Cassidy:
Because attacking her in that manner makes it increasingly acceptable to do the same to other women.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Stuck in the Funhouse: Well, you said you skipped the comments of the first post. Which is fine, they were shit.
Cole was responding to the assholes in that thread. If you’re not one of those, he wasn’t talking about you.
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
It’s interesting that you believe I’ve expressed some desire for this Hustler photoshop to be a “teachable moment”. I don’t recall asking for Sandra Fluke to give us an hour long lecture on what it means to be a progressive and a feminist. Well, actually I suppose it is teachable in a sense… it’s teaching me a lot about commenters and front pagers who are making a big deal about how little it means to them and how mean it is for other people to judge them harshly for that.
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
It’s interesting that you believe I’ve expressed some desire for this Hustler photoshop to be a “teachable moment”. I don’t recall asking for Sandra Fluke to give us an hour long lecture on what it means to be a progressive and a feminist. Well, actually I suppose it is teachable in a sense… it’s teaching me a lot about commenters and front pagers who are making a big deal about how little it means to them and how mean it is for other people to judge them harshly for that.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Bip:
Forget it, it just isn’t worth it. Rage on! :)
@J.W. Hamner:
I’m confused, are you Suzanne? People sure are having difficulty keeping shit straight today.
Jesus Christ people, over a fucking pornographer? Get real! My God, no wonder the left is such a bunch of pansies and lets the right march all over them.
Oh, I’m sorry for slandering pansies! My bad.
Cassidy
@suzanne: I understand where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree. The picture was gross, of course, but I don’t see the equivalence to the attacks women have been under. She, and conservatives in general, use her sexuality as a cover for blatantly misogynistic attacks. There hoping that people will be distracted by the eye candy and not pay attention to the bullshit coming out of her mouth. I have no sympathy for her. What she preaches directly and negatively affects the lives of every woman in this country every day.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
You are bad, very bad. Flowers, like sunsets, have feelings too.
I’m going to bed.
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I don’t see what is so hard. You couldn’t care less about misogyny and this makes you a bad person and outs you as a non-liberal. Simple, eh?
eemom
@Cacti:
Me, I’m just going to keep reading until Teh Stoopid busts my brain. Shouldn’t be long now.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@J.W. Hamner:
When you look in a mirror, do you see a sack of hammers?
suzanne
@Cassidy:
There’s oodles of feminist literature on the subject making this very point.
All of that is true. Which is why we could all say, “S. E. Cupp is a dangerous, horrible asshole,” and avoid this whole kerfluffle.
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
You have yet to make a serious comment towards me, so I just have to work with the idiocy directed my way. When you want to talk like a big boy let me know.
jheartney
@Bip:
I think what we’re actually saying (and you’re having a hard time hearing) is that ostentatiously “calling it out” accomplishes nothing. Flynt not only doesn’t care about being called out, he actually likes it; in fact it’s the point of the exercise.
by and large, we are.
Well, if it makes you feel better, sure it’s wrong. But don’t be under any illusions that going on about how wrong it is will elevate Hustler’s “discourse.” As to other venues (say BJ), I think you can be pretty sure that juvenilia sexualizing our female opponents isn’t going to become acceptable just because Larry Flynt has been doing it for over 30 years.
Cassidy
@suzanne: Can we call her the “c word”?
I’m kidding. Seriously, I wouldn’t. Just trying to lighten it up a bit.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@J.W. Hamner:
You’re starting to catch on Skippy. Good for you! Little steps and all that…
@Cassidy:
“Conservative”? Dude, that’s harsh.
LanceThruster
For the record, here’s Flynt speaking for women’s equality at HuffPo and getting a fairly good response. I don’t want to throw him under the bus just because his visuals can be from a very narrow perspective.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/LanceThruster/what-ever-happened-to-equ_b_709265_59857122.html
J.W. Hamner
@jheartney:
What I think you are saying is that it accomplishes nothing for liberals politically to call out Hustler for misogyny. Indeed, maybe it is a net negative as conservatives try to use it as a false equivalence. I think I agree with that statement, even if I’m just guessing if it is what you mean.
However, in what way is calling out misogyny “accomplishing nothing”? I have a hard time processing that. Isn’t it simply the right thing to do? I’m not arguing that Cole should be combing the backwaters of the internet for examples of misogyny in Diablo III forums, but what possible harm is there in defending a conservative woman from misogynistic comments from political detractors? No, “the Left” has no part in whatever terrible things Flint says/does, but does that absolve us of the responsibility of speaking out against misogyny? I don’t think it does.
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Apparently it’s all fun and games until I argue that your lackadaisical attitude towards the issue is tantamount to a lack of concern for misogyny. Well whatevs… go back to blowing bubbles in the kiddie pool while the adults talk.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@J.W. Hamner:
Good guess, that’s exactly what we’ve been saying like, forever. Congratulations!
If this was Salon, MSNBC, Daily Kos, or any other REAL political outlet, outrage from the left would be appropriate. But a pornographer ostensibly working on behalf of liberals? Puh-leez. Pornographers don’t speak for me and even if they did there isn’t a damned thing I say that is going to change Flynt into a ‘proper’ gentleman.
I don’t buy his products, nor those of his advertisers. Pornographers have been doing this forever and nothing you say or do will change that. Sex sells, no matter how disgusting it is. Sometimes it sells specifically because of how disgusting it is.
Welcome to reality. Keep flailing away at the wind if it makes you feel better but don’t expect me to think it wise of you.
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
So quantify how many points this costs Obama or the generic Democrat? Do you think this hurts their approval with women somehow? With independents? How exactly does the attack add go? “When Hustler Magazine…”
The next thing you learn about politics will be the first thing.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@J.W. Hamner:
Missed this one, maybe it was in mod, or something. But I think I’ve answered your question in recent comments on this thread, addressed to other commenters.
Though I do not think I told you or anyone else that they ‘couldn’t” condemn me for anything I say here. Of course, I also have the right to response to such charges, in whatever way I want.
lacp
@J.W. Hamner: Maybe it’s a question of the appropriate forum. Speaking out against misogyny (and I haven’t seen anybody deny that this was a particularly blatant example) is called for in a society that too often ignores it. Who are you speaking out to here? This blog is a pretty well-defined, closed community; I would be very surprised if at least 95% of the commenters and lurkers didn’t agree with Bip and you about the general point that actions dehumanizing women are wrong regardless of context and can’t be allowed to hide under an ideological flag. The other 5%…well, good luck. Commenting here is really preaching to the choir, though, isn’t it?
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
should have been “shouldn’t” though the meaning is mostly accurate.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@J.W. Hamner:
I just remembered that I’m talking to a bag of hammers.
Flail away at the wind but please, DO let me know if you accomplish anything.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@lacp:
But… but… sputter… they’re doing something about it by posting here that they don’t approve of it! How dare you oppress them! What do you mean that it isn’t effective preaching to the choir here?! Now they can bookmark it and pull it out whenever they need to prove what good people they are to someone on the internet!
Internet cred is everything these days, don’t leave home without it.
Some Guy
@J.W. Hamner:
Don’t bother. This one isn’t trying to understand. There is so much fake outrage on this issue, and it isn’t come from the likes of Cole. His initial post wasn’t even an outrage post. It was him documenting his attitude to this event.
J.W. Hamner
@lacp:
Absolutely the 600 comments on this topic (or whatever) are basically that and essentially worthless… however the original objection was that John Cole even posted about the topic. While I’m sure mainly liberals read this site, based on the traffic this site gets and how it is routinely cited by both left and right… it is not an insignificant thing that Cole called out the misogyny.
Strictly from a political perspective… I think at the very least, if in 3 months some right winger says “GOP War on Women!? What about when the Left attacked S.E. Cupp!?” You can say a) it was Hustler, not “the Left”, and b) it was roundly denounced immediately by numerous prominent liberals. I honestly think the worst “political downside” would be ignoring it.
From a longer view, while I don’t think there are any but an insignificant fraction of liberals who approve of what Hustler did… I do think there are a fair number of male progressives who would go a milder misogynist route to attack a conservative woman… probably without thinking. Will they think twice after reading Cole’s post? I don’t know, but I’d like to think so… and it’s hard to see how it would hurt.
Some Guy
@lacp: Have you ever been in an ABL thread where she talks about sexism? I would be surprised if even half the commenters actually gave a crap about women’s rights. Sexism is still a major problem in the Left. Male privilege and all that.
Some Guy
@lacp: Have you ever been in an ABL thread where she talks about sexism? I would be surprised if even half the commenters actually gave a crap about women’s rights. Sexism is still a major problem in the Left. Male privilege and all that.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Train wreck occurs on the right:
The right doubles down and throw themselves headlong into the flaming wreck, claim that there’s no wreck and that they’re roasting marshmallows while decrying the mean lefties trying to deny them their freedom to have a good time.
Train wreck occurs on the left:
The left and right both enthusiastically throw themselves into the flaming wreck and everybody claims that they’re victims.
Some Guy
@lacp: Have you ever been in an ABL thread where she talks about sexism? I would be surprised if even half the commenters actually gave a crap about women’s rights. Sexism is still a major problem in the Left. Male privilege and all that.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
A blogger is preaching to the choir?! This is something I must argue against for a solid day! How dare that blogger!
Is it normal for the choir to whine continuously during the sermon? I’m a filthy atheist, I don’t know how this church stuff works.
lacp
@Some Guy: I’ve seen the responses you’re talking about – it seems to me that it’s the same people over and over again, though, and that they’re not really a large number. Although they are assholes. No question about that.
Some Guy
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
The is usually more music.
Silver
Why is everyone dumping on pornographers? For fuck’s sake, it’s not like they are PEGs…
I even know some women who do it!
(Making, directing, flming porn, not private equity. Women in porn get treated and paid better than women in private equity do.)
FlipYrWhig
So is misogyny over yet? I figure if we all do our part here, we’ll be about two-thirds of the way towards eradicating it by morning.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
Ha ha, those stupid feminazis think that condemning misogyny will totally make it vanish overnight, but I can see through their tricks! This is not a stupid strawman at all! Take that, feminazis! /whack /whack
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Can we take a moment to think through the praxis of how “condemnation,” here, you know, leads to something, or is it mostly a matter of condemning as many things as quickly as possible? What’s with the one-up-person-ship?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: Or maybe its a matter of seeing something that sucks and saying, “Hey, that sucks.”
Normally around here saying that sucky things suck is considered ok. For some reason this time it isn’t. Why is that?
Do you go into open threads about fucking TV shows and ask people where they’re leading with their opinion on Mad Men? Or is that only a pertinent question when talking about misogyny?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Keep going, the last post wins the battle. I know you can do it, don’t give up.
ETA: I noticed one small blurb about this at Redstate and not one comment about it. Obviously the outrage needs to be cranked up a bit more on the left so the right notices.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Ha ha, you answered someone’s direct question! Now I will mock you for being a loser for still posting on this thread I’m still posting on.
Jeenyus!
Maybe if you keep posting here for another 24 hours you’ll have me convinced that you don’t care.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
I’ll deny it anyway, so why bother? It’s your move, the battle isn’t over yet!
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Somebody said they don’t like misogyny! Break out the Mountain Dew boys, we’ve got a loooong night of trolling ahead of us.
It’s a rough job, but somebody has to fight for justice.
/didyoueverknowthatyouremyhero
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Everyone already said that the sucky thing sucked, so then we got to enjoy a second round of people painstakingly and earnestly explaining that the sucky thing REALLY sucked and it ate away at their conscience that the sucky thing continued to suck and it made them very, very angry and/or sad. Do we have a lot of threads here where someone says they like dogs, and then someone else says they REALLY like dogs, and that it’s their mission in life to make sure they never rest until everyone, including all the dog-likers, knows that dog-liking is the best? There’s a weird heroic quality to this one. Which is kind of amazing, given that virtually no one disagreed with your premise, and yet you still managed to dream yourself into a dragonslayer of leftie sexism, a leftie sexism that nobody evinced at any point. But now I know that the next time I found a multi-million-dollar empire on exploiting women’s bodies, it will have been mean of me.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@FlipYrWhig:
Damn it, now Baron has to come in and make the last post again so he can remain triumphant in his war to erase misogyny in porn.
I really had high hopes and now they’re dashed unless the blog warrior can save us all.
Deb T
In the news this morning, they put a new security camera on the bust of Rush (rush of bust) in Jefferson City Missourian Hall of Fame (I think it’s in the capitol building), because they think someone may try to vandalize it. There is no such camera on any of the other busts (Mark Twain, Walt Disney, etc.). And of course, they had to close the installation ceremony fearing protestors might interrupt the cememony.
Hmmm, interesting.