This image, used to attack Obama for his health care positions, enrages all liberals:
This image, used to attack S.E. Cupp for her positions on contraception and abortion and women’s health issues, only enrages some liberals:
If you can’t figure out why both are inappropriate and offensive, you’re part of the problem. It’s not about liking S.E. Cupp (I happen to think she’s a complete idiot, and this clip demonstrates that nicely). I also happen to think she is pretty much wrong about everything.
And it’s not about whether Hustler has the right to do this or whether it is free speech. I’d like to think it is protected speech, obnoxious as it may be.
It’s about whether or not this is something that is right. It’s about whether you think your sister or mother or daughter or friends should have this happen to them because someone else doesn’t like their politics. And it’s about this.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Keep beating that horse John, I think it moved again.
Sorry John, it’s a porn mag owned by Larry Flynt.
Good luck with that.
salvage
Hustler is just vile shit and this is coming from someone who had to add a server room for his porn.
Zifnab
Nothing says women’s rights like a scene out of Deliverance.
Alison
Thank you, John. I don’t think I can handle even trying to move the debate along this time, but I did want to say thank you for being one of the people who get this, and for telling off those who refuse to.
Villago Delenda Est
John, why the fuck are you giving Larry Flynt exactly what he wants? Attention for his crap?
Why?
Arclite
But, but, but South Park does it!
FlipYrWhig
I can’t believe Cory Booker, Hilary Rosen, and Larry Flynt came up with this in their weekly strategy meeting to determine What Democrats Think.
Ben Cisco
Confused as to why this is a difficult concept to grok. Pretty much all I have to say on the subject.
g
Well…..I agree with you on both being offensive and inappropriate. I agree with
But here’s one thing – I learned about the top picture because it was being displayed in the public square, at a political event. If you read or watched the news or walked in the streets of those cities, you were confronted with it.
Isn’t that a little different than an offensive image placed in a magazine that people have to purchase in order to see it? Particularly a magazine marketed to a limited audience that, in most cases, you have to actively choose to even see it?
Just how did whatever pearl-clutcher that brought it to the attention of the wing-nut world manage to stumble upon it?
kindness
While I agree with the idea John, at least Hustler put a disclaimer right there on the picture.
They aren’t the same. They are close, but not equal.
Just Some Fuckhead
This is exactly what Frumunda was talking about.
GeneJockey
Here’s the thing: Finding that piece of vile misogyny among all the other vile misogyny in Hustler is like finding a needle in a needle stack. I don’t see it being passed around on the lefty blogs by people who then claim not to see the misogyny in it.
The Obama/Witchdoctor thing, OTOH got posted multiple places, emailed etc by people who claimed it wasn’t racist.
Is the SE Cupp picture offensive? Of course. Goes without saying. Is it really the same as the Obama/Witchdoctor thing? Not even close, because of the nature of the source and distribution.
slag
Welcome to our world, dude. Did you miss the 2008 primary? This shit was flying from every direction. And not at a Republican. And I say this as someone who had an anti-Hillary/Penn bias.
Tony J
I’m English and therefore only Liberal in the American sense, but I’m amazed there’s even a question to be asked about this. Of course it’s wrong.
Hubris
The problem, any -isms aside, is this whole crop of people who think it’s possible to be “tough” on the internet. They will never be convinced that ‘shopping a wang into someone’s mouth isn’t AWESOMELY HARD CORE.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Hustler still around?
And yes, it’s pretty vile.
Just Some Fuckhead
Recently my very sexy and practically untapped bloghost suggested both sides do it..
Stuck in the Funhouse
Man, once you get hold of a bone, you don’t let go easy. Of course I’m offended, because this was manufactured porn without the object of derision’s permission. Making it a political attack on liberals, from liberals, because it happened to a political operative on the right, delivered by a pornographer at war with christian fundies, is a way big over reach imo.
And please get off your high horse, when it comes to saying sexist or misogynist, or homophobic stuff. Cause you ain’t exactly the essence of purity on that topic.
I trust my outrage is sufficient to pass mustard, cause if it ain’t, then suck my dick.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
One difference is source and use. The picture of Obama was, again IIRC*, e-mailed out by a Republican state legislator or party official. I think you can argue equivalence when Larry Flynt shows up at fund-raisers on state with Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and Chris Van Hollen.
*and I do
LT
You’re digging in on this. Oh well.
This is equivalent to Rush Limbaugh, after calling Fluke a slut (and lying about her repeatedly, which is just as important) and getting called out on it, saying “Oh look! A Liberal meanie called me a bad name! This proves I’m right!” – and you (and Lindsay and others) saying, “Hmmm, that really is a bad word.”
That, John, most respectfully, is very NOT smart.
You struck out on this. Or are you now going to dedicate your life to ending pornography?
Corner Stone
@salvage: An actual room? Or an external drive?
Joel
They’re both offensive as hell. Not much more to say.
merl
That is disgusting I wonder if George Tierney Jr of Greenville South Carolina had anything to do with it?
Really though that is bad. And it gave the entire right wing another chance to claim victim hood.
LT
@GeneJockey:
“Here’s the thing: Finding that piece of vile misogyny among all the other vile misogyny in Hustler is like finding a needle in a needle stack. I don’t see it being passed around on the lefty blogs by people who then claim not to see the misogyny in it.”
Why the fuck is that so fucking hard to figure out?
lee
See both sides do it!!#
FlipYrWhig
I have just received a tip that there’s a truck stop somewhere with graffiti implying that Andrea Mitchell does sordid things. Unless every conservative ritualistically repudiates that, the only logical course of action is that we should, nay must, continue to talk about it for days on end.
jheartney
John, it’s the Ward Churchill Gambit. An insignificant figure nominally on “our side” has done something boneheaded/outrageous/disgusting, and so we are expected to rend our clothes and ostentatiously read them out of “the Movement.” IOW, a distraction.
Is Flynt a vile person, as evidenced by his Cupp image? Sure. Is there some reason we are required to waste moments from our finite time here on Earth excoriating him for it? Why? Like if we do, it’ll stop him? (No.) Is he unique in being a scumbag? (Hardly.) Are we responsible for what he does? (No.) So what the hell is the point?
Maude
OT, but Bill Clinton had his picture taken with porn stars. I do hope Obama doesn’t have him around for the rest of the campaign.
Nick
Not to say that it isn’t offensive, but there are only so many hours in the day and way more racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. attacks out there than any one person or organization can possibly react to or comment on. And I for one don’t think it’s that unreasonable to say that I’m not going to prioritize getting exercised about attacks by a obviously fringe publication on a very privileged lady who’ll obviously have a large and vocal media/legal support system.
If you want to denounce people who are reveling in it, go nuts, but it’s silly to presume that anyone who hasn’t denounced is tacitly enforcing it. Some of us simply have, what we view, as better things to do with our time.
I’ll be over here worrying about planned parenthood, and poor college students, and fair treatment of the women without a tv gig (especially since fixing stuff for the non-tv gig women will probably sort it out for Cupp too). Someone else can worry about demonstrating liberal commitment to the cause to the satisfaction of the folks who want to move us back to the 1830s.
Villago Delenda Est
@Corner Stone:
Prolly needed a router, a bigger pipe, and a massive RAID array to handle all the bewbies.
Liquid
Note to self: Name my Male Witch Doctor (Diablo III) Obama.
Of course I would bet dollars to a bucket of dogshit that Blizz already added that to their ever-growing (and informative) list of banned names.
GregB
I have it on authority that this picture originated from the computer of Carl Paladino and was forwarded to Larry Flynt.
The last time I checked there weren’t any Democrats giving interviews to Hustler or making the pilgrimage to Larry’s porn store in Hollywood to seek his vote.
I haven’t heard anyone on the left defending this.
George Tierney of Greenville South Carolina
Man, Obama is really buff in that picture.
Comradde PhysioProffe
There’s an important difference, however. The Obama image–and other shitte like it–was widely circulated with approval by substantial numbers of base voters of the Republican Party. I am not aware of any substantial numbers of base voters of the Democratic Party who are circulating that image of Cupp with approval.
So yeah, both are disgusting. But one reflects a lot more about widely held attitudes among a particular political party’s electoral base.
LT
This is all John trying to make up for laughing about rape.
(That’s just wrong. Sorry.)
Villago Delenda Est
@LT:
I wish I knew. The wingtards explode in anger over this, and we’re supposed to get worked up over it?
I refuse to do so, and give Larry Flynt even an iota of attention.
LT
@jheartney: Well said.
lacp
But wouldn’t it all be better if the people in those two photos were reversed? I mean, then one would be homophobic and the other would be gibberish and….oh, I guess not.
geg6
Of course it’s vile and disgusting. What in Hustler isn’t?
I’ll get outraged about it, though, when lefty bloggers and Democratic officials start emailing it around for yucks. Otherwise, you are implying that Larry Flint is on my side. He is not, so I’m just going to continue to be disgusted by Mr. Flint and his magazine, but ignore them both as I always have.
And OT, but Devin hasn’t emailed me about Lil Bear yet. Did she get him a forever family? Because, if not, we’re still interested.
EconWatcher
One thread on this wasn’t enough?
El Tiburon
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yeah, why? Hustler Magazine does not speak for the liberal left. It is not a political magazine per se. It is a smut rag. Who gives a flying fuck what they do? The ONLY people who would see it are people who have no idea who SE Cupp is.
Right or wrong is beside the point. Are you going to flip a gasket if some porno company makes a porno with a Rick Santorum ass-raping a Chris Christie? So fucking what.
The difference between the two images is the Obama image was passed along by so-called respectable conservatives and gives a glimpse into how these people really think about Obama.
The other one is a cheap ploy by a smut merchant to get publicity and is in no way condoned by the left.
*I do own Larry Flynt’s book on free speech or whatever he put out years ago.
Villago Delenda Est
@Liquid:
Well, negrow, which is worgen spelled backwards, and homonyms of it (various misspellings, exotic characters, etc) have been added to the filter. For fairly obvious reasons. The racism of some WoW players is painfully obvious, and they’re proud of it. Must drive Blizz’s CS department nuts.
beltane
@GeneJockey: Everything Hustler has published since its inception is vile misogyny. Does it only become offensive when their vile misogyny is directed at some third-string conservative pundit? I feel worse for the desperate for cash women who are subjected to this in the flesh rather than via Photoshop. Back in 2006 there was a Photshopped image circulating of Osama bin Laden sodomizing Karl Rove but I don’t recall there being this much angst.
If some Democratic party county chairman was sending this image out in a mass emailing, yeah, it would be outrage worthy. But if I’m going to get my panties in a bunch over every offensive image Larry Flynt has produced in his long, sleazy career I would no longer be able to walk.
Linda Featheringill
For several years, I’ve fussed and fumed about people using the word “service” when the correct word was “serve.”
EXCEPT . . in this case, service is the totally correct word. Good for you, Lindsey.
And also good for Lindsey because she is defending someone she disagrees with.
[People still read Hustler?]
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
It’s very simple: attacking any one woman with misogyny is an attack on all women. Period.
You’re saying I should be ok with a misogynist attack on S.E. Cupp because she’s a bad person? Is this battle against Generic Replaceable Fox Bobble-bot #475 so fucking important that we should abandon the fight against misogyny?
I want to see less misogyny in the world. Scoring some cheap points for the current news cycle matters to me about a million times less than reducing misogyny. If that means I’m defending this Fox-bot, then so fucking be it.
Just fucking remember this, assholes: if it’s ok to do this to Cupp, it’s ok to do it to your wife or your mother or your daughter. It’s an attack on womanhood. Don’t delude yourself otherwise.
joeyess
I agree. Both images are wrong. Both are offensive. The only problem I foresee is that S.E. Cupp will now be the Rosa Parks of the conservative movement if we don’t move on and stop clutching this particular string of pearls.
The Overton Window has shifted rightward enough on the issue of women’s healthcare, and I don’t want to see the professional whining of the right wing turn this to their political advantage whenever the question of a woman’s reproductive rights are being discussed.
I believe that only human beings that come equipped with a uterus are capable of making the hard and easy choices of how, why, when and the how many, when it comes to having children. That should be up to her, her doctor, her significant other and her conscience. When this discussion bubbles to the surface again, and you know it will, I don’t want to hear one goddamn thing about S.E. Cupp having to endure the vicious torture of photoshop as a defense for the indefensible: Mainly, white men flapping their gobs about how much they love jeeeesus and everything, including the economy, would magically become simply perfect if we could just end the holocaust of the unborn.
I can hear it now.
Pro-choice argument: “Women are smart and know what’s best regarding decisions about their health.”
Pro-forced birth nut: “that may be true, but did you see what Hustler did to pro-life advocate S.E. Cupp? It was indicative of how ‘the left’ behaves. Oh, and ‘the left’? They eat babies on the 4th of July.”
I know that’s a tad over the top, but the right wing specializes in over the top. In fact that’s how they roll.
I don’t want this to be attached to “the left” as a blanket charge that our argument for a woman’s choice is invalid because S.E. Cupp was smeared in the pages of Hustler magazine. The right wing is very good at this stuff.
It’s a problem.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@EconWatcher:
Sometimes daddy is not satisfied the first beating didn’t improve morale. Especially when enhancing his girl power creds. The emails pour in with salacious praise, and the dude just can’t stop.
debg
@Alison: I second Alison’s comments. Thanks, John.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
john, if you fetch me a sandwich i will let you tell me how outraged i should be.
Djur
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone batting their eyelashes and saying “why, what could possibly be offensive about that picture?” It was intended to offend.
What I’ve seen asked repeatedly and never answered are the following two questions: why it is our responsibility to police and condemn a porno mag, and why is this different from every other time Hustler has made sexualized attacks on well-known figures?
Think of it this way: I’m sure some of the glibbies at Reason are atheists. If one of them called the Pope a “dress-wearing faggot”, would it be our responsibility to condemn him? No, because just because he’s attacking someone we don’t like doesn’t mean he’s our ally. Larry Flynt is not our ally. Call it trash and move the fuck on.
beltane
@El Tiburon: I see this as a case of “Nasty pornographer who has built his decades-long career out of the nasty and degrading treatment of women produces a nasty and degrading Photoshop image of a woman, outrage ensues.”
Linda Featheringill
I do have a question about the Obama paste-up.
Why do people who put these things together always make choices that give Barack very sexy thighs?
Dream on, dream on, dream until your dream comes true.
FlipYrWhig
@Linda Featheringill: But, you know, I don’t see what’s so courageous about it. Yes, it’s A Bad Thing. Let us all say that It Is Bad. It is sexist and demeaning and shouldn’t have happened. Done. Why doesn’t it end there? What else is there to say?
slag
@LT: The problem, which is staring you directly in the face and yet which you choose not to look at, is that these jokers implicated Planned Parenthood in their porno-graphic. Of course of course of course they–and their allies–have to address it. It’s not Cole who’s making this false equivalency. It’s everyone else who has made and is making it.
Besides which, when did we get too stupid to be able to discriminate between the transgression and the transgress-ee? This isn’t exactly rocket science–SE Cupp is an imbecile, a jerk, an asshole, an incredible jackass of the lowest order…but she’s not a slut/bitch/whore/seaward. I’m consistently amazed that this distinction is so difficult for some of us.
You can still SMASH…just be a little discerning in the ways in which you do it. Please.
Villago Delenda Est
@Linda Featheringill:
I’m not sure anyone actually reads it. The original joke is someone “reading” Playboy, of course, but the thing was, Playboy in its golden age actually had a lot of top flight contributors.
Penthouse styled itself as some sort of political alternative journal, too, but Flynt I don’t think ever bothered to try that. To get attention, he’ll do anything tasteless. Look, it works!
Liquid
http://www.diablowiki.com/Diablo_III_Banned_Character_Names
And here I am thinking MingLi for a female wizard or Buliwyf for my Barb were up for review.
Odie Hugh Manatee
What Rush did to Fluke was on a national level and his supporters backed him all the way on it. They tweeted and blogged his bullshit, proud that Rush had stood up to the newest liberal menace. Rush only ‘apologized’ when the level of advertisers fleeing hit critical levels. It was not a sincere apology, it was meant to staunch the flood of advertisers leaving his show.
What Hustler did was in a limited circulation magazine for the eyes of a very limited audience. NOBODY on the left (that I’m aware of) was proudly blogging and emailing that image around to promote it as the right was doing with the Rush/Fluke bullshit. But the right is demanding action from the left on this and what does the left do?
Fall for it, face first.
This is DumberDome; two misogynists go in and I couldn’t care less if anyone comes out afterward.
Tony the Wonderhorse
The Al Franken as a baby pic was also offensive, all such pics are offensive, obviously.
So what? There is nothing else to be done, label it offensive and move on. Why in hell are people dwelling on this? The sooner you stop talking about it, the sooner people will stop looking at it.
Larry Flynt is a pig, a label I’m sure he will embrace, but the people obsessed with this are childish. What he did was legal, and should be, so what is your point besides “it’s offensive?” Move on and grow up.
Clime Acts
@g:
Bingo.
This is such a stupid comparison. Hard to believe Cole is doubling down.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Who’s deluded? What dissenting views are there? If someone kicks a puppy, is it important for everyone to rush to the Internet to register just how bad puppy-kicking is, and the last one who does it is a rotten egg?
satanicpanic
Who are these liberals? Name me one prominent liberal that is defending this
gaz
They’re both disgusting.
One is attempting to make a political message.
The other one is attempting to be a bottom-feeding run-of-the-mill porno.
I find the former offensive, partially because of the the source. It is an attempt to make rank racism part of the political discourse.
The latter is offensive, and is extremely misogynistic. It attempts to turn a political message into a pornographic one, and yes, Hustler should stay the fuck out of politics. If I find it less offensive, it is only because it doesn’t claim to be anything other than wanking material. It’s an offensive and tasteless attempt at satire, from an offensive and tasteless magazine.
That said, they are both disgusting. I’m inclined to take hustler less seriously though.
In any case, I don’t think Hustler deserves the attention it’s getting.
AxelFoley
I guess I’m part of the problem. Fuck the right-wingers. Fuck ’em, male or female. As I’ve said before, the President and other elected Dems have to stay above the fray, but we don’t. This shit ain’t no game–if these wingnut muthafuckas get control, we’re all screwed.
Fuck being nice or polite with them.
JWL
This is reminiscent of the first time I heard the name Paris Hilton. Who is Cupp, and should I care?
Jeff Spender
I concur with John and Allison on this topic.
Clime Acts
@LT:
BINGO AGAIN.
Perhaps he gave his BJ posting password to ABL. That would explain a lot.
dedc79
1) yes both images are horrific
2) no, there is no comparison between what gets circulated by right wing political groups and what appears in Hustler magazine
AxelFoley
@GeneJockey:
Thank you. It’s Hustler. I’ve seen some racist shit in that mag, too, but no one ever bitched about that.
Bizono
Where are the prominent liberals defending this photo? Serious question.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
WHO HAS SAID THAT IT IS OK TO DO THIS TO CUPP?
WHO?
YOU are the asshole for even suggesting this. Get over yourself.
And do not fool yourself: the slime on the right would do the same thing to Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama in a fucking heartbeat, with absolutely no remorse. Then they’d claim that they were justified in doing it because Flynt did it to SE Cupp.
gaz
@satanicpanic: I didn’t see the word “prominent” as a qualifier in the front page post.
I think it’s more of a general point about how some otherwise “progressive” men need to get with the fucking program. Just because it’s targeted at somebody whose views are worthy of contempt that doesn’t make it right.
And there have been plenty of commenters here and in other places willing to go there on this. No honest person can deny that. All you have to do is look at yesterdays thread to find the examples.
And again Hustler’s getting WAY TOO MUCH play over this. It will only encourage more of the same.
joeyess
And This……
robuzo
People above the age of 22 or so who need this explained to them are beyond reason.
LT
@slag:
How does this begin to speak to or against what I said?
And all this “What Hustler did is not appropriate!” Is honestly just cracking me up a little too much.
“What Hustler did is not appropriate!” Just stop killing me, please.
beltane
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Did you know that every single woman who has been gang-raped in an “adult” film was someones daughter, sister, or mother?While I am confident that no one who reads this blog would ever look at pron because it is demeaning to women, there does appear to be a double-standard in this case, perhaps because S.E. Cupp is young, wealthy, and attractive.
Citizen Alan
Hypothetical questions: If Larry Flynt were a wingnut and that disgusting picture featured Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama, Sandra Fluke or any liberal/Democratic female of any importance whatsoever, would anyone on the right be as outraged about it as Cole is? Would a single Republican/right-wing blogger anywhere in America put up two posts condemning the misogyny of Right Wing pornographer Larry Flynt?
FlipYrWhig
@gaz: It’s very similar in concept to the George Tierney, Jr. line to Sandra Fluke about “shut your dick-sucker.” Not clever, not creative, a weird fantasy of control. But I don’t know anyone who would draw any other conclusion. I don’t know what the counter-argument is, or who’s making it.
joeyess
Another valid point.
The Thin Black Duke
Hey, guys?
Will anybody be jabbering about this nonsense next month?
It’s already old news.
Seriously.
Felinious Wench
1. Both images are vile.
2. The context in which the images were used is different, the purpose and audience of the images were different.
3. The subject’s reaction to them was different, and their supporters reactions were different.
4. S.E. Cupp is a person we vehemently disagree with. Myself, I think she’s a moron.
5. The images still are vile.
Any arguments? Anyone find these pictures funny, clever, or full of artistic merit? No?
Excellent. Time for TaMara to post a recipe and for us to whine for Tunch pictures.
dylan
yawn, the only think I’m upset about is that they haven’t done this to Palin or one of their other ‘A list’ wingnuts.
Jeff Spender
@Jeff Spender:
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
Same concept applies. Allowing this kind of stuff to continue, or even tacitly approving it because of who it targets, opens the doors for this kind of behavior to be directed in other places.
I know some people think that by drawing attention to it, we’re somehow playing into someone’s hands. While this may be true, these sorts of things just can’t simply be ignored or they’ll continue.
It’s not a battle you can fight without taking losses.
Alex
A legitimate sociological study could be conducted on what the front-pagers on this site decide is and is not a legitimate controversy-du-jour.
I have a legitimate question for all here. In 2004, the cartoonist Ted Rall — undoubtedly a man of the Left and one whose cartoons have been used on this site by Anne Laurie — drew a graphic that unironically compared Condoleeza Rice to a house slave. It can be found here: http://www.gocomics.com/tedrall/2004/07/05. Is this something that can be debated without reference to the “other side”?
jheartney
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Who on this board is making this argument? I see comment after comment agreeing that’s it’s a loathsome attack.
debg
@merl: I was just thinking, how is this image different from George Tierney, JR. of South Carolina tweeting offensive things to Sandra Fluke? Because I agree with Fluke and don’t like this dimwit?
Amir Khalid
The Juicitariat have already pretty much argued this out, in that 260-comments-or-so thread. Hustler‘s notion of satire is juvenile, crude and transgressive, and in this instance (among many others, I’m sure) it went way beyond the pale; but some here find it hard to work up much outrage on S.E. Cupp’s behalf because she’s a right-winger and seen by the left as rather misogynist herself. I’m with you, though: Cupp’s politics don’t enter into this, this kind of sexist personal attack on anyone is wrong. Hustler‘s right to print it is undeniable, of course. But so is the duty to protest such a cheapening of public discourse, without regard to political partisanship.
@Odie Hugh Manatee: You can’t just shrug and say, “It’s Hustler, what can we do?” You guys are made of sterner stuff than that. I know there’s some alarm that Hustler seems to have positioned itself on the political left. But Hustler doesn’t speak for the left or anyone else. Its only political position is to assert the right to print dirty pictures accompanied by copy that would embarrass even a horny 13-year-old boy. I doubt Larry Flynt disagrees with that.
Patricia Kayden
What did S.E. Cupp say when Limbaugh spent 3 programs calling Sandra Fluke slut, round-heeled, promiscuous, etc.? Did she condemn him or just let it slide like the rest of the Rightwing?
Sorry, I don’t feel sorry for her and don’t really care about this issue. Repubs are very good at dishing it out. Let them cry for their own.
I am absolutely positive that if Hustler had photoshopped a penis in Mrs. Obama’s mouth or Mrs. Pelosi’s mouth or Mrs. Clinton’s mouth, the Rightwing would either be silent or support Hustler.
Nuff said.
satanicpanic
@gaz: fuck those guys. This is not cool. I’m all for using dirty tricks against Republicans here, but not when there is collateral damage to women. Would people be okay with replacing Obama in the above photo with Allen West? Fuck no. Maybe I am agreeing with John then.
Clime Acts
@gaz:
Just because it’s targeted at somebody whose views are worthy of contempt that doesn’t make it right.
Could you provide a link to ANYONE here on BJ saying that the Hustler CUPP image was “right.”
Thanks, I’ll wait.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Bill Maher is a guy with a TV show who has said some stupid and offensive shit, and made a large donation to OBama’s RobertsPAC. To my knowledge, BIll Maher and Barack Obama have never been in the same room. Donald Trump is a guy with a TV show who has said some stupid and offensive shit. Mitt Romney paid him a ring-kissing visit during the primaries, courted and celebrated his endorsement, and this weekend will be co-hosting a large fund-raiser in Vegas with Romney (and Gingrich– guy on MSNBC said this was a negotiation to get Trump to drop his request for a convention speaking slot). See also: Ted Nugent.
So Maher and Trump are both “problematic supporters”, in our post-punk Broderist world.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: It’s a little more like some asshole kicked a puppy belonging to a right-winger, and when some number of left-wingers hear about it, they respond with, “Hey, that guy had it coming. Maybe if he wasn’t such an asshole nobody would have kicked his puppy. Besides, it’s not like the kickers were my friends.”
Suddenly, the whole premise that everybody agrees puppy-kicking is bad is demonstrably not true. This is bad if you don’t like puppy-kicking and would prefer to see less of it.
Of course, there’s a problem with this analogy, which is that most people do in fact oppose puppy-kicking, while I’m not convinced that misogyny is nearly so unpopular. Let’s not bullshit ourselves that misogyny is universally hated, even among lefties.
FlipYrWhig
@gaz: I thought the reaction was more like, “Yes, fine, it’s bad, but does it have to turn into a whole thing, or can we just stop.” I don’t remember seeing anyone say “It’s not bad” or “Haha, bitch got what’s comin’ to her.” It’s bad in an obvious and un-special way. It feels like an argument where people keep shouting but there’s not even a disagreement anyone can spell out.
Keith G
@Alison:
Sorry Alison (and those with similar notions). All you have to do is read the post below yours to fathom your (collective) error.
More often than not, outrage blogging is insidiously stupid and counter productive. Larry Fucking Flint has played you all. What a bunch of morons.
Ian
John, both are inappropriate and offensive. As I said in an earlier thread, I’m just not going to stick up for someone who spends her days bashing me (as a liberal, not me personally). She chose the level of dialogue to engage in. She can fight her own fights, and this Hannity-esque, “Do you not condemn this?!” wailing out of the same people who said, “Right on, Rush!” is the height of lunacy.
David M
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Link or STFU
Liquid
Ahh, it’s a beautiful day in Seattle. Sitting out on the lawn, getting some vitamin D and only the bird to keep me company.
A little rum, a little pot, a little Soundgarden (down on the upside) and a little S.E. Cupp with-a-dick-in-her-mouth.
I am THIS close to nirvana. or maybe it’s the zen thing. Eh, it’s too nice a day to care. Though I am thoroughly enjoying this spirited discourse!
fasteddie9318
To paraphrase Lemieux over at LGM, we really should have seen this coming when we elected Larry Flynt as the head of the Democratic Party.
But seriously, why are liberals, collectively,unable to say that this was an offensive image published in a magazine that specializes in offensive things, owned by a pornographer who represents nobody but himself, and then move on? Why must we wring hands over the details of this, consider and debate the niceties of it, and thereby take ownership of it, just as the VRWC wants? Why is anybody defending this on anything other than pure First Amendment grounds? Why is it so hard to hang Rush Limbaugh’s offensive speech around the necks of all conservatives, but when Larry Flynt (Larry Fucking Flynt!) does something offensive there are liberals standing in line to offer their necks?
fasteddie9318
To paraphrase Lemieux over at LGM, we really should have seen this coming when we elected Larry Flynt as the head of the Democratic Party.
But seriously, why are liberals, collectively,unable to say that this was an offensive image published in a magazine that specializes in offensive things, owned by a pornographer who represents nobody but himself, and then move on? Why must we wring hands over the details of this, consider and debate the niceties of it, and thereby take ownership of it, just as the VRWC wants? Why is anybody defending this on anything other than pure First Amendment grounds? Why is it so hard to hang Rush Limbaugh’s offensive speech around the necks of all conservatives, but when Larry Flynt (Larry Fucking Flynt!) does something offensive there are liberals standing in line to offer their necks?
gaz
@Bizono: #67. Serious answer.
#59 an example of who this post is addressed to.
I’d like to think Foley and others were raised better than this, but I’m so often disappointed by such expectations.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@EconWatcher:
The beatings will continue…
The outraged left needs to start a successful boycott of Larry Flynt and Hustler, just like they did with Rush and his show. Boycott his magazine and bombard his advertisers until they flee, never to return.
Demand a refund on your Hustler subscription! Refuse to restock your sex cabinet with whips, chains, lotions, cremes, leather outfits, rubber sheets and other miscellaneous supplies from his advertisers! Have a Hustler burning party so your leftie neighbors can join you in showing your outrage!
Get back to me and let me know how it went.
Jeff Spender
@Citizen Alan:
I didn’t know we had to base our conduct on what other people are doing or how they react. They probably wouldn’t, but why shouldn’t we be angry when we see something like this? Forget for a minute that it’s even got any political bent to it: what if it was just a woman in public they picked randomly?
This is my point. Hustler will get play with this, but who among us are going to go out and buy a Hustler? Why can’t this issue be one of women being the target of an attack based on sexist tropes?
beltane
@Bizono: No one is defending the f*cking photo, that’s what I don’t get. It’s just weird that after all these years, this is what makes people clutch their pearls regarding Larry Flynt.
Clime Acts
@Jeff Spender:
Hint: The more attention you give this, the more Larry Flynt loves you.
BTW, you’re a blue nose.
Unlike a lot of Puritans here, I don’t think having a cock in one’s mouth is a fate worse than death; much less a FAKE PICTURE of a cock in one’s mouth.
God, people are generally stupid.
pk
John Cole, I seriously don’t get what the issue is here. Who are these people who are saying the Hustler picture is acceptable? Everyone agrees the picture is offensive and Larry Flint is lower than pond scum. Are we all supposed to send sympathy cards to SE Cupp? Start a petition against Hustler? I’ve said that I wouldn’t defend her, because I can’t stand her,but in the real world my defense amounts to less than nothing. But so what? Having said that if I owned a paper I would not publish this crap against anyone. I think the real problem is that while a lot of people hate the image and Hustler and misogyny, and even though condemn the image, they are finding it very hard to feel sympathy for Cupp and that seems to be the real issue. This lack of sympathy is being translated into “you evil misogynists, you think it’s O.K. to behave this way towards women not on your team”. That is republican thinking BTW.
A Humble Lurker
@FlipYrWhig:
Yes. SATSQ.
Also, the whole ‘they just want attention and you’re giving it to them’ ignores the idea that this stuff will keep happening even if it doesn’t get attention. We don’t listen to Limbaugh….but other people certainly do. Ignoring him won’t make him go away.
Hill Dweller
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:Trump has also renewed his birther offensive in the last few days, but that hasn’t stopped Romney from kissing his ass.
Clime Acts
@Alex:
That cartoon was spot-on.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Is it? How many people said the equivalent about this picture? How many people said, “Fox News lady with a dick in her mouth, haha, serves her right for being such a bitch”?
Raven
You want to read what is vile and disgusting, flip back to Paul Fussell.
gaz
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I already boycott porn. Not because I find it puerile. I’m not so pure myself. I don’t like sex and so I have no use for porn, other than maybe the odd humor of it.
People that are pointing out hypocrisy from the right as a justification over this issue are engaging in playground reasoning and missing the larger point. (not saying that’s you, just a general observation about some of the comments here)
Amir Khalid
While we’re on the subject of what’s offensive, should we find this appalling or amusing?
Brachiator
You’re still wrong.
Flynt’s attack wasn’t sharp enough. He should have had a cartoon featuring that fool from South Carolina wiggling his pecker at Cupp and asking, “Aren’t you glad I’m on your side?”
Any conservative, male or female, who did not solidly condemn Limbaugh when he attacked Sandra Fluke cannot turn around and try to invoke sisterhood, feminism, or civility.
It’s bullshit.
Let’s examine the record. Cupp’s reaction to Limbaugh was weak tea.
Typical misdirection. Both sides do it, but liberals are worse.Yada yada yada.
Limbaugh proudly declares that he is speaking for the conservative movement. He has riled up women haters.
Flynt happily wades in filth and influences no one. There ain’t no fucking equivalence.
Misogyny? Misogyny is when, like the recent Mississippi legislator shown on the Rachel Maddow Show, you chortle about abortion being made impossible in the state, and laughing about the prospect of women having to resort to coat hangers. Because you have to do the moral thing.
Cupp could never be my sister or mother or daughter or my friend. By her statements and actions, she would crush my sister, my mother, my daughter and my women friends.
I would not wish her any harm. But this is not just politics as in sitting around in the parlor playing debating games. This is the use of politics to control the lives of women.
I have no more sympathy for Cupp than I would for any conservative, male or female, gay or straight, who actively pushes policies that harm men and women. Because at the end of the day, she has not really offered sympathy to other women. She merely wants space to continue her attacks.
If you want to invoke protections of feminism for people who don’t give a rat’s ass about women, OK, fine. You’re better than they are. The weird thing is that they really don’t care. They will use your civility and compassion against you. And they will continue to crush women.
Is that what you want?
David Koch
The Hustler photo is wrong. I’m glad people are calling it out.
But when are people gonna call out Cupp for her constant disgusting sexist exploitation of women, reducing them to a sum of sexualized parts and promoting the perverted and patently offensive image of women as merely items of sexual pleasure?
http://woody.typepad.com/files/se_cupp_07_large.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc181/anchorbabes/Sep%202009/secupp1-7.jpg
It’s important and necessary to denounce Hustler, but it’s also equally important to denounce Cupp’s degrading and objectifying behavior.
Djur
I just find it hard to work up outrage because if I was outraged every time Hustler published something offensive I would never stop being outraged.
I don’t spend time being outraged by Stormfront, either.
FlipYrWhig
@Amir Khalid: I think there’s an important distinction between “Is it bad?” and “Should I invest energy in declaring myself to be outraged?” This seems like obvious badness, and if my outrage is going to come that cheaply, I’m going to have to live in a permanent state of outrage.
Calouste
The search shows that there are six frontpage posts on Balloon-Juice that use the term “Kochsucker”, which I am sure Cole can explain to us is in no way related to the image in Hustler. Not at all. Not in the same building. Nope.
satanicpanic
Larry Flynt is the new Che Guevara. I’m printing up t-shirts as we speak.
kth
Reprehensible of course; equivalent to the Obama cartoon only if emailed and tweeted by prominent Democrats who then say “sorry if anyone was offended, it was just a joke” when caught.
gaz
@Alex: I don’t care for it when it comes from a position of privilege. That sort of thing is better left purview of black americans who actually have license to engage in that debate.
I’m not offended when the blog field-negro engages in it. I’m white and so I’ll not interject myself in such conflicts, other than maybe to politely observe from a distance. It’s not my place.
This stuff is an altogether different ball of wax – and one in which I have a personal stake.
A Humble Lurker
@David Koch: Well, what’s awesome about us is we can do both at the same time, huh? :)
Jeff Spender
@Clime Acts:
If you believe I’m a blue nose or that I’m puritanical, then you’re just fucking moronic. Seriously, a grade-A moron.
I have no problem with picture of women with cocks in there mouth. I have no serious problems with most kinds of pornography. In fact, my fiance and I just had this interesting discussion about a prude we both know who thinks pornography is inherently degrading to women, which we both think is incorrect (of course, she also thinks our sex life is not…very moral or normal).
You’re just arguing dishonestly, or you’re so incompetent that you can’t tell the difference between an attack on a woman based on sexist tropes and pornography that a woman performs freely.
FlipYrWhig
@A Humble Lurker: But, look, I’m sure at right this very minute someone in America is bullying or demeaning someone else, and if I was told about it, I would say it shouldn’t happen. If I heard about it before you did, would I get to cuff you around for how slow on the uptake you were?
What’s this ritual where we have to measure each other for how quickly and how intensely we use the internet to register our angry, angry outrage over every lamentable thing? Do we get points we can redeem later? It’s weird.
David M
@Djur: Finally an apt description of why I don’t care. The next issue of Hustler contains something offensive? And the last 1,000 issues didn’t? WTF? This is like noticing the sky is blue. Yes, Hustler / Larry Flynt print misogynistic shit, I didn’t realize there were people that didn’t know that.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Amir Khalid:
No, I’m saying: “It’s Hustler. Offensive is their product and it sells. I’m not a consumer of their product, therefore I have nothing to be outraged about or apologize for.”
Yes, what Flynt did was disgusting but everything Flynt does is disgusting. Big shock there, eh? BTW, did we ever take ownership for Nailin’ Palin?
If we did I must have missed it.
Svensker
@GeneJockey:
Yup, pretty much.
Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ
Hilary Rosen must apologize to SE Cupp immediatley.
Schlemizel
I missed the first go-round on this lovely bit of ‘art’ (and it sounds like I am lucky in that).
But from what I read here nobody is suggesting that there is anything OK about the image. I do think some people are not sharing your outrage. I believe (and everyone please forgive me if I am putting words into your mouth) that they do not see this insult to humanity as equal to the Obama picture above or the other examples for reasons that should be self evident.
Is it disgusting? You bet! Should we denounce it? Without a doubt! Is it on a par with the witch doctor, Fluke attack or any of the thousands of disgusting pushed by actual honored members of the modern conservative movement? Not even close. I don’t recall Liberals ever claiming Larry, He has never pretended to speak for Democrats, Liberals have not passed this obscenity around in email chains or on their blogs (well, except for this one ;)) and several other good reasons.
Yes, this image upsets me, what do you suggest we do about it? I’d suggest someone shoot Mr. Flynt but thats been done already hasn’t it? Until liberals and/or Dems take up Mr. Flynt’s support, Occupy makes posters of this image or Hustler becomes the house organ for the Dems this is just another piece of filth foisted on an already degraded population by a sleaze merchant & not comparable at all to the other stuff you mention.
Heliopause
To me there’s no difference between this and, say, photoshopping Jonah Goldberg with a clown hat and nose. There’s nothing wrong with sucking dick as far as I’m concerned, though I would respect anyone’s desire not to be depicted doing it, and I similarly wouldn’t photoshop someone from the other side politically as a clown or with a Hitler mustache or whatever. Well, unless I was really, really pissed off.
Also, Flynt’s been doing this for decades. Bloggers discovering that he publishes offensive shit in the year 2012 is a little weird.
gaz
@Calouste:
Personally, I think that’s an altogether different thing.
A) Cocksucker is not gender specific (at least not to me), therefore not specifically mysogynistic.
B) You’d have to rip on the Deadwood series, as they use that term every three words. You’d also have to condemn all of the colorful variations of FUCK.
C) The most offensive part of the hustler piece is the reduction of a particular person to that of a sex object. While I’m sure that Kochsucker could be parsed and interpreted as such, the simple fact is that for 99.9999% of the population they don’t interpret it as such.
The hustler piece is very targeted, visual, and demeaning in a way a simple epithet doesn’t rise to. IMO, it’s something else altogether.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@David M: Link? Are you reading a different thread than I am? Press F5, that’s your fucking link.
@FlipYrWhig: I just… seriously? Do I really need to link to the people in the last thread, and this one, who are basically saying that this doesn’t bother them because they don’t like the target? If you really want an example, look at Brachiator’s post above mine.
It’s all over the two threads here on the subject, this idea that misogynistic attacks are somehow ok as long as they’re pointed the right way, or at least not worth fighting. My position is that all misogynistic attacks are always pointed at all women. The whole idea behind the photoshop in Hustler is that women who say things you don’t want to hear just need their mouth plugged up with a dick. Cupp was the excuse they used to make this statement; I don’t buy that it was focused on her in any meaningful way.
Why is it so fucking hard to just say, “Yeah, that’s wrong”? I keep reading about how we shouldn’t be defending Cupp like it’s some massive imposition to write, “Yeah, that’s wrong.”
slag
@Villago Delenda Est:
Oh come now. You inhabit these pages with some frequency. There are quite a few off-shruggers in this very thread. Even if they don’t use the word “OK”, they certainly don’t express much sensitivity toward the larger problem.
And while this Hustler image may be an extreme example, the lessons to be learned from it have a variety of applications. We could all point fingers and name (quite a few, in fact) names spanning the years. But what’s the point? I, for one, am just trying to embrace my inner Buddha rather than write a bunch of us off as classless, ignorant muthafuckers. It’s an endless quest.
Eric U.
I think the picture from Hustler is reprehensible. To say that it somehow reflects on liberals is also reprehensible. I haven’t seen one in a couple of decades, but I assume that Larry Flint still publishes a really nasty magazine.
gaz
@GeneJockey:
This is exactly why I believe Hustler does not deserve the Front page attention they are getting on political blogs.
Svensker
@Jeff Spender:
I won’t disagree with your argument with C.A. who is a very strange and disturbed person (misogynist git fits, I think). But I’m not sure how much pornography a woman performs freely. I’m no sociologist and I’m old, so maybe my info is really out of date, but the women I knew when I was younger who did porno/sex worker stuff were pretty screwed up both about it and by it. It was an ugly business and the women — many of whom were making good money — were victims (of their own psychology, of evil boyfriends, of sleazeball producers). Like I said, maybe it’s changed, but I’d bet not.
Johannes
Agreed, John. Protected (legally) speech? Hell, yeah. Wrong as can be? Hell, yeah.
Villago Delenda Est
You know, I’m reminded of one of the late, great George Carlin’s quips:
“How did cocksucker come to mean a bad man when it’s really a good woman? How did they do that?”
Or words to that effect. Can’t find the precise quote.
FlipYrWhig
It feels like this…
X: Did you see this picture? Isn’t it gross?
Y: Yes, it’s gross.
X: It’s more than gross, it’s unacceptable.
Y: Yes, it’s unacceptable.
X: I’m outraged. Aren’t you outraged?
Y: Uh, sure, I guess I’m outraged.
X: Enraged, or outraged?
Y: Um, the first one, I think.
X: You don’t sound like you mean it. Look again, isn’t it awful?
Y: Can we talk about something else?
X: OHMYGOD I knew it! You don’t even care! How dare you sit by and let these things just happen!
Y: What exactly do you want me to do about it?
X: [flounce]
Villago Delenda Est
@slag:
And yet you can’t cite a specific example of this at all.
This is a pretty direct accusation, and I’ve yet to see anyone produce any evidence that it’s perfectly OK. I do know that people who have no problem with the first photo are just outraged, outraged at the second.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: It’s very easy to say “it’s wrong.” Uninteresting, too. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. It’s wrong. What is supposed to happen next?
ETA: I think people are basically saying, Yes, it’s wrong, and no, I’m not sure why I’m supposed to care beyond the part where I agree that it’s wrong.
David Koch
@A Humble Lurker: I’m all for denouncing Hustler. Really. But I never see anyone denouncing Fixxed News, et. al. for their degrading exploitation of women.
http://whatwouldjackdo.net/laurie-dhue.jpg
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8884/fox2c.jpg
GeneJockey
Seriously – both pictures are offensive, okay? I don’t see anyone in 100 comments saying otherwise.I’m not clear on what I’m supposed to be outraged about.
If the Obama image appeared in Stormfront’s monthly magazine (assuming they have one), I wouldn’t be outraged, because I already know they’re a bunch of racist assholes.
The SE Cupp image appearing in Hustler similarly doesn’t outrage me, because I already know they’re a bunch of misogynistic assholes.
If the Cupp image starts getting emailed around by lefties, or posted on lefty blogs by people think it’s okay, or cool, or funny, and then claim they’re not sexist, THEN I’ll be outraged.
Let me know when that happens.
LanceThruster
What is the proper ratio of personal attack to denigrate someone versus the percentage of ridiculing their positions? Sure I laugh when Orange Julius’ name is pronounced “boner” and even to mention his orange pigment is “lookism” to a certain extent (though self inflicted), and the number of times he cries is also mocking something that mostly has no bearing on his retrograde positions on issues…but dammit, mocking them in whatever manner available is tit for tat (is ‘tit’ ok?).
While goofing on Sippy Cupp (the ‘Sippy’ is fun though not her fault her name is Cupp or her initials S.E.) is it beyond the pail to riff on the fact that she is also a ‘ginger kid’?
I agree that Flynt and Hustler are not the coin of the realm in regards to progressive thought, whereas Rush is their pointman.
I love Louis C.K. when he deconstructs the epithat, “Suck a bag of dicks!” He goes on to inquire, “Is that one at a time or all at once?” Vulgarians should not be pilloried merely for being vulgar. And if you want to object to any unfair depiction of people, the sexual BS is just one facet.
Is it OK to shrilly exhort Ms. Cupp to “suck a bag of dicks?” or would it be better to make it gender neutral (suck a bag of sex organs)? Is “suck” too mysoginistic? Is any sexual imagery in a verbal tirade verboten (Make love badly and don’t come, Ms. Cupp!!)?
It would be irresponsible not to speculate as I consider myself the Kinseyian David Broder
LT
@FlipYrWhig:
The after effects of this are becoming nauseating. It’s now “You are not a true Progressive unless you become very outraged right now. Show me your outrage or I will internentfuck your mouth right now.”
Fucking hell.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: To me, it feels like this…
X: Did you see this picture? Isn’t it gross?
Y: Isn’t that SE Cupp? Fuck that bitch, I hope she gets gangraped.
X: Um… It’s more than gross, it’s unacceptable.
Y: Why are you defending SE Cupp? Are you retarded?
X: …
Y: Haha, that stupid ratfucker flounced! Now that we’re done with the trivial shit, let’s talk more about how Rush Limbaugh is a misogynist.
ETA:
@FlipYrWhig: There sure is a lot of pushback coming from these people who don’t care.
Soonergrunt
@geg6:
THIS x 1000.
FlipYrWhig
@slag:
What’s “the larger problem”? People sexualizing women to diminish them? Is there a way to indicate that that’s bad and shouldn’t happen so that we aren’t stuck in this feedback loop where we incessantly gauge the depths of how _really_ bad it is and how we _really_ think it shouldn’t happen?
Dave
This Has Been a John Cole Lecture on Women’s Feelings
…like, no shit the Hustler thing is ugly, and no shit it’s borne of malice and misogyny. Holy shit it’s like a consciousness raising session in here.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Anyone else see the name “SE Cupp” and read it as “C cup”?
What, too soon?
chopper
cole:
dick.
Villago Delenda Est
@Soonergrunt:
This.
And now it’s about time for me to head out with my geek friends who will discuss in mind numbing detail the virtues of MacOS vs. BSD vs. Linux vs. Plan 9. Fortunately, I’ll have beer and pizza to keep me sane.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Eric U.:
Not to mention maybe the stupidest circular firing squad in center left history. And that is going some. A liberal blog enshrining Larry fucking Flynt liberal status, a wingnuts wettest of wet dreams.
gaz
@Clime Acts: I thought about enumerating each response that I saw as a tacit excuse for the hustler piece – then I remembered who it was I was responding to, and I’ll simply provide two links and save myself the time – since you’ll just dismiss them anyway:
https://balloon-juice.com/2012/05/23/shes-right/#comment-3279534
https://balloon-juice.com/2012/05/24/things-i-learned-on-the-internet-last-night/#comment-3281843
Excusing hustler is pretty much the same as an endorsement in my book. It’s not okay anyway you slice it.
Don’t bother responding. Or if you do, do not expect any further responses from me. You consistently argue in bad faith. This is a sympathy response on my part. You get one free a month. That’s it.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Yowza. Facts and sentiments nowhere near in evidence. This is what’s happening here, where some of the participants are all excited to shoot down the vile misogynists, can’t find them, so they make some out of straw and shoot them down instead.
FlipYrWhig
@Dave: It’s like a consciousness-raising session held after everyone’s consciousness was already raised.
David M
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Congratulations!!! You’re simultaneously reading and commenting at different blogs.
GeneJockey
@gaz:
And yet, here we are, all going on and on and on about it.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: There is pushback coming from people who are getting tired of being lectured about the crucial importance of knowing things they already know.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: The accuracy of my dialogue was calibrated to match the accuracy of yours. Both are ridiculous caricatures.
gaz
@Soonergrunt: I can totally get behind that. It’s good to come out against it.
I’d only add that it may be far more damaging to continually post this kind of crap on the front pages of blogs in the first place. Hustler loves this kind of attention, or maybe some people just forget who Larry is.
Soonergrunt
@Odie Hugh Manatee: THIS to everything you said. This whole sad thing has been nothing more or less than which human being, who does shitty things that I despise less.
And the answer is Larry Flynt. Unlike Ms. Cupp, he’s not actively working to destroy opportunity and limit choices for my sisters, wife, nieces, daughter or daughter’s friends that I’m aware of.
@LanceThruster: This makes me less unhappy.
Bizono
@gaz: BJ commentor “G” is a prominent liberal?
LanceThruster
Who among us has not viewed with pleasure Hustler’s “Asshole of the Month” where the picture of the person (male or female) is shown protruding from a “brown starfish” (how do you spell sphinctur?) and agreed wholeheartedly before even reading the copy on why they were @-holes?
Yes, it’s crude and vulgar, and yes it can be considered a sex organ of sorts…but oft times it’s a remarkably apt description.
FlipYrWhig
@GeneJockey: I think at heart there’s a difference of opinion about what rises to the level of outrage. I guess I have a high bar for outrage and don’t think it’s all that important for everything that I agree is bad to be properly ritualistically shunned through some process conducted via blog comments.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Has anyone at the Great Orange Satan expressed outrage at this? I haven’t seen a peep over there about it and they are usually the leading light in whatever the latest outrage is, left or right. Does this mean that everyone there is just fine with what Flynt did to Cupp?
What a crying shame.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: How silly of me to think that misogyny hasn’t in fact been stamped out on the left.
But you know, if you don’t care and you have nothing to learn and this argument isn’t important, then what the fuck are you doing here arguing?
Are we supposed to both believe that Cole’s post was so banal and boring and done that it wasn’t even worth saying, and that it’s so controversial and wrongheaded that it needs all this pushback?
Soonergrunt
@gaz:
@Villago Delenda Est: I had a block quote fail on that post you’re replying to. I’ve fixed that. All the smart stuff was originally said by Geg6. All I did was THIS it.
slag
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Agreed. As E Hauser does a decent (if incomplete) job of spelling out. People seem to be under the impression that, if this picture didn’t exist, then this problem wouldn’t exist. Some of us just see this picture as one of the latest, most extreme examples of this problem. And I think that’s where the real differences are.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Soonergrunt:
Thanks. It seems pretty clear cut to me but I’m surprised at how many people on the left are falling for it.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
A quote from Sandra Fluke:
How silly. Doesn’t Sandra Fluke know that she’s only providing Hustler with the publicity it craves? Doesn’t she understand that by defending Cupp she’s really opposing feminism? Doesn’t she realize that blah blah de fucking blah blah?
gaz
@Svensker:
As someone who has both engaged in porn in the past (to pay for rent and hormone therapy, and someone that has numerous friends and a former longtime g/f in the sex-work industry, I’ll weigh in:
In many, if not most circumstances, it is exploitation, plain and simple.
In some cases it’s not.
Consent is paramount, but is definitely not the whole story, because consent under duress is definitely a dynamic here – generally financial duress, as it was in my case.
However: Ultimately it is up to the individual person who is working in the industry to make that decision. It’s not someone else’s place to decide, and doing so often makes the situation WORSE for the worker (a lot of the laws in my state that intend to protect dancers (from themselves – they don’t say) actually make it far more degrading and force them outside the confines of a safe environment to bring home money.
It’s a complicated situation but the above is a general rule of thumb. The workers themselves get to decide this for themselves.
GeneJockey
@FlipYrWhig:
I, too, have a pretty high outrage threshold.
This is largely because of spending a decade on a forum mostly populated by wingnuts, who were constantly outraged about something. Outrage and victimization – it’s what keeps them going. Always some asshole whom they can somehow associate with the left, and the call for everyone on the left to denounce them, and the accusation that failing to do so means they agree.
Just like this.
Keith
Things can be inappropriate without necessarily enraging me. Maybe if you judge people on whether or not certain things enrage them, *you* are part of the problem. If you let every shitty thing in this world piss you off this much, then I would recommend reflecting a bit more on Andrew Breitbart’s last days.
And good luck playing outrage whack-a-mole; you don’t have enough hands.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: What is “the argument”? That’s what I’m arguing about.
Do you really think the dispute is that some people think “this is bad” and others “this is totally cool”? Or is it between “this is bad and I’m very worked up about it and feel the need to vent publicly” and “this is bad but I’m not very worked up about it”?
What is it that you think people need to learn? To adjust their personal baseline so that they’re more worked up about sexist and offensive images, even though they already had an inkling that sexist and offensive images were kind of bad?
slightly-peeved
@debg:
Mock or condemn George C. Tierney Jr. Of South Carolina for what he said. Condemn Hustler for what they printed. But if you don’t assume Georgie boy was speaking for anyone but himself, then you don’t have to feel any connection with Hustler’s opinions either. The difference between those and the racist Obama pictures was that those were sent by Republican official. The connection with the rest of the party, and the supporters of the party, is explicit.
also, mocking George achieved the goal of making him shut his dick sucker. Nothing gonna make Larry Flynt shut his.
MosesZD
What makes you think I was ‘outraged’ at the Obama picture? I thought it was stupid and racist. I think the Culp picture is stupid and mysogynist.
But I’m not outraged. Politics is pretty fucking rough-and-tumble and those who put themselves in the spotlight are putting themselves in the crosshairs.
Now, when someone is merely asked for an expert opinion, let’s say in a congressional hearing, as a non-office holding, non-punditry witness, then yeah. Fluke was the most recent. But many scientists and professional experts who have been called to give expert testimony have also suffered this defamation by the left and by the right. And I don’t agree with that.
So, my basic rule is if you’re on Faux News opening your yap. If you’re running for office. If you are, by your conduct and profession, fully engaged as public citizens, such as pundits and spokesmen…
I’m not going to be outraged over crap like this. I’m too damn old to get ‘the vapors’ over some incivility and use the fainting couch at this stage of my life.
FlipYrWhig
@slag:
Who is it that you think believes the problem of misogyny doesn’t exist? Who are the “people” you’re distinguishing yourself from? What is it that makes your reaction special? I don’t get it.
rageahol
useful idiots.
that is all.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Sandra Fluke is right. And 99% of us _already know that_. So what is driving all this self-congratulation?
slag
@FlipYrWhig: Look. If you don’t think you’re part of the problem, you really have nothing to worry about, do you? Did ABL write this post? Is there something wrong with your scroll button that you just can’t bring yourself to skip this post if you don’t think it applies to you?
If you agree with the thrust of this post, then you agree, and thus, you have no reason to argue about it, do you? And yet here you are…arguing. You should consider looking into that.
gaz
@GeneJockey: I don’t have a blog front page that is driving click throughs.
Or 2 in under 24 hours.
Todd
Until this week, I had no idea who SE Cupp was, and didn’t care. Now I know who she is, and still don’t care.
The fact that Larry Flynt is a vile asshole doesn’t give Cupp any claim to martyrdom. And Cupp’s asshole status doesn’t make what Flynt did right.
I’m just rooting for injuries all around – its like a Yankees-Red Sox game.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: That’s a good question: what is the argument about? What is it in Cole’s original post or in this one that needs to be argued against?
All Cole said was that the picture in Hustler was wrong. This inspired several hundred comments of whining about it? Why?
It’s like some Bizarro World where the original picture isn’t even worth commenting on, but if someone does comment on it that’s just beyond the goddam pale. What the everloving fuck is up with that?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: What’s driving all this opposition to Cole when he says the same fucking thing?
GeneJockey
@slag:
Are you new to the internet? ;-)
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
I’m not so comfortable with reproducing the image, even with the stuff blurred out, to be honest with you. Gives me the creeps.
GeneJockey
@gaz:
It’s three now.
FlipYrWhig
@slag: I think the vast majority of the people who have posted here agree that the image is bad and that misogyny is an ongoing problem. But I’m being a curmudgeon about the particulars of “outrage” and what kinds of internalized attitudes and externalized actions are supposed to follow. I’m not arguing about p0rnification or misogyny, I’m arguing about outrage.
slag
@Villago Delenda Est:
Are you really sure you want to do this? Really?
Keith G
@FlipYrWhig:
Chest pounding has been a feature of this species since the beginning. (Ironic and meta)
Weaselone
The Hustler image is vile, disgusting and misogynistic. What does it have to do with liberals exactly?
Also, this just reaffirms my conviction that those who decry and condemn smut magazines form a sizable fraction of the readership of said magazines.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: I don’t see “opposition to Cole,” I see annoyance that Cole is belaboring an obvious point and crusading against sexist leftie monsters even though they don’t appear to exist.
ETA: Correction, there are certainly sexist leftie monsters who do exist, but I didn’t see very many this time around.
Tim in SF
I was too quick in dismissing this last night. You’re right, JC, misogyny is always wrong, no matter who is doing it.
However, I’m not going to spend too much energy condemning this condemnable behavior. I think we liberals are usually too quick in rushing to condemn other liberals (or in this case, someone who is an enemy of our enemy) for bad behavior. When given the opportunity, we eat our own faster than the right ever can.
It’s as if we need to establish our we-always-play-fair bona fides. The right never gives us credit for playing fair, and FSM knows they rarely (if ever) condemn equal or worse behavior emanating from their leaders, from Breitbart on down to the lowest O’Keefe.
So, we hold ourselves to a higher standard. That makes us better people than them, but it’s tiring. I’d rather save my ammo (as it were) for targets with a rich history of deserving it, rather than for (ostensible) allies with one-off bad behavior.
That doesn’t mean I approve of Hustler’s attack (and that’s what it is), because I do not. But I’m also tired of tearing down my allies when they fuck up. And besides, there will be enough people screaming at Hustler that I don’t feel the need to add my voice to the chorus.
gaz
@Todd: I know who SE Cupp was through frequent visits to Sadly, No! Yeah – she’s another winger – so what – and I readily enjoy the mockery she receives for her toxic views.
While I can root for injuries all around, and I understand the spirit of it, Hustler will be emboldened, not injured, by the attention.
Arguably SE Cupp will likely be emboldened as well, and was arguably “injured” by this (to use your term). In her case, I’m not sure how she actually feels about it. But I’m fairly certain it will stoke a righteous anger in her and wingnuttia in general.
Hustler felt free to undermine progressive high ground on women’s issues by siding with them against SE Cupp. That’s unfortunate. “With friends like these…” Meh. Fuck them. Either way, Hustler is the only clear winner in this entire mess.
When you roll around with the pigs, you both get dirty and the pig likes it. In that spirit, I’d strongly suggest a moratorium on trashy porno gracing the front pages of the blog. Not that it’s my blog, it just seems to be the best move.
Patricia Kayden
Hopefully, this is the last post we have to read about SE Cupp and Hustler on BJ. I have no idea why we are acting as if Hustler was acting on behalf of or in conjunction with Democrats or the left wing when it published that disgusting photo.
How is Hustler’s action equivalent to Limbaugh, Nugent, or other Righties who make outrageous racist, sexist or homophobic comments? Has any Democrat embraced Hustler or sought its endorsement?
Let’s keep it real, folks!
P.S. I am positive that if I glanced through Hustler magazine, I would find many reasons to be OUTRAGED. Not sure why this photo is any more outrageous than any of the rest of garbage Hustler publishes.
Svensker
@gaz:
I’d completely agree. I think sex work should be mostly legal and it should be easy to get medical help, etc. It’s going to happen whether it’s “illegal” or not, so let’s get it out in the open and as safe as possible. From what I saw of it though it didn’t have very much of the “free strong women who just love giving boys a good time and making an honest dollar” stuff that my libertarian friends (men) always used to barf out.
slag
@FlipYrWhig:
Then you must not be a very careful reader.
FlipYrWhig
@slag: Apropos of nothing, I don’t get the reference here to ABL, whom I have never said one word against and whose stuff I like.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity: I understand that. To be honest, the Obama picture skeevs me out worse than the other one, even four years after first seeing it. I’d have a hard time saying which is worse. Sure, the Obama pic made more public appearances, but it’s possible to say you dislike the Obama pic without starting a controversy.
I’m just glad to see some form of disagreement with the post other than, “Of course we agree with you, Cole, but we’d prefer if you didn’t say so.”
gaz
@GeneJockey: head meets desk.
Keith G
@FlipYrWhig: Speaking of ironic, did someone just become so incensed at what you typed, that they told you to use the scroll button and not read objectionable posts?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig: You don’t see opposition to Cole?
We’ll just have to agree to
disagreedwell in our alternate universes.FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: “Skeeved out” is a paltry attempt to define the terribly racist associations of the Obama image, and if you don’t see that, well, you, sir, are not only part of the problem, you define the problem. I can’t believe you care so little about racism. You just don’t get it. :P
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: I don’t see opposition to Cole’s view that the image is icky, no. I see aggravation at being lectured about it and a desire to clarify who exactly is on the other side.
Danny
@Cole
Of course both pictures are offensive. But your original premise in bringing up (“lefty”) feminists denouncing Hustler and contrasting it to the wingnutosphere’s reaction to Limbaugh was wack from the start. Larry Flynt and his publication has got nothing to do with lefties in general or the democratic party, while Limbaugh is – arguably – the most powerful leader of movement conservatism.
It was positively Broderian in it’s tryhard attempt to find some equivalence between the two events. And now you’re following that up with some positively Greenwaldian bullshit.
FlipYrWhig
@slag: The preponderance of “opposition” is comments like “Yes, it’s bad, but I don’t get why it’s so important to demonstrate outrage and condemnation, and I don’t actually know who you’re fighting with.” That’s really not very much opposition.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@FlipYrWhig:
X: Herp?
Y: Derp.
X: Herp derp?
Y: De derpity doo!
X: [flounce]
J.W. Hamner
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity:
How do you even have the stones to come into this thread when it’s your mockery of “civility in discourse” that gives tacit approval to this kind of garbage?
slag
@Patricia Kayden:
You know how ridiculous this sounds? Hustler linked itself to Planned Parenthood right next to that picture. No. Planned Parenthood–and its allies–didn’t ask for that. But you sometimes get stuff you don’t ask for and have to respond accordingly. It’s not as if, all of a sudden, the left spontaneously went to war with Hustler magazine.
Hustler magazine made a lefty claim in the act of doing something the left has no business being associated with. And so the left would and is doing well to loudly, proudly dissociate itself from that act. Which is all fine and good until people on the left then complain about the left dissociating itself from that act. Which is when the stupid starts flying in earnest.
FlipYrWhig
@slag: @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: At a certain point, outrage fatigue sets in. “I know it’s bad but, fuck, this kind of thing again, do we really have to go through it? Don’t we know the steps by heart by now?” I guess it happened to me quicker than it happened to you.
slag
@FlipYrWhig:
It was a joke in reference to her threads. Which, apropos of everything, were often rife with vaguely sexist commentary.
FlipYrWhig
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: I think that’s a Punch and Judy.
FlipYrWhig
@slag: Well, that’s true, but I didn’t do that, and I didn’t find that sexist discourse was particularly prevalent on this thread.
FlipYrWhig
@slag:
OK, that clarifies something. It makes the argument over “what should feminists and/or the left do to create distance from Hustler,” rather than “is this an offensive image, yes or no?” Because, really, we’re virtually all agreed about the latter.
FlipYrWhig
And, when three or more consecutive posts are from the same poster, me, it is time to go.
slag
@FlipYrWhig: Well, then you would know that there were always always people in those threads frequently complaining that they weren’t remotely interested in the subject matter of those threads. Which is fine (and which I can quite often appreciate). But then, if it doesn’t matter to you, it should, you know, not matter to you.
It’s almost as if people somehow felt implicated even in spite of their protests. Defensive, would be the word I would use.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Flynt mentioned Planned Parenthood in his sleaze attack and Planned Parenthood responds appropriately by stating how disgusting it is and disavowing any association with Flynt/Hustler. Their supporters are right to step up and do the same thing as Planned Parenthood. Controversy over, right? Nope, not on the left! They need to get in on the action too. How the hell did the “left” get dragged into this? Planned Parenthood is not the “left” and they were the ones that Flynt was ‘supporting’ with his shit.
Let the pros handle this, you amateurs are fucking it up.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Odie Hugh Manatee: I’m still trying to atone for Ward Churchill.
Danny
@slag:
I would say that it’s absolutely appropriate for the left to condemn Hustler and Flynt, and inappropriate for anyone to defend Flynt by saying it’s fun or whatever. His shooped image was not close to as offensive as Limbaugh’s behavior towards Fluke, but it was offensive in metaphorically shutting up an inconvenient woman by shoving a photoshopped dick down her photographs mouth.
Having said that, it would be absolutely ludicrous to demand that every lefty organization and individual must volunteer to condemn Flynt or any other person who does something offensive in the name of some leftist cause. We have no obligation to denounce the crimes of Stalinism every time the Revolutionist Communist Party supports some lefty cause du jour. Republicans have no obligation to denounce the American Nazi Party every time the ANP speaks up against affirmative action.
kc
@GeneJockey:
Bingo, thx for saying it.
Heliopause
Let me try to expand on what I find strange about this; it’s strange that the “left” is all of a sudden, in May of 2012, being asked to apologize for Larry Flynt, who has been peddling stuff at least this offensive for almost forty years. It’s roughly equivalent to all of a sudden asking the generic “right” to apologize for Lyndon LaRouche.
LT
@FlipYrWhig: The ABL reference – at least the first one, by the dickwad I happen to agree with on this – referred back to my comment which snarked about ABL accusing Cole of laughing about rape. Which was a truly, truly awful thing to do. (More awful that Hamsher calling Cole homophobic, I’ll add for the fuck of it.)
https://balloon-juice.com/2012/05/24/things-i-learned-on-the-internet-last-night/#comment-3281853
eemom
You’ve really outdone yourself this time Cole. Given the following points which have been made now approximately 8000 times since you started this dumb shit and which you continue to ignore:
1. Hustler does NOT speak for “the left.”
2. The pretense that it does, so as to distract attention from the actual dangers posed by the likes of Cupp, is so reflexive a tactic of Limbaugh and his ilk that they fucking do it in their sleep.
3. And STILL credulous morons like you gobble it right up, fessing up to “left” ownership of what Larry Flynt does as though he were our adopted son –Thank you Rush, may I have another? — and thereby perpetuating the distraction from the actual issues.
4. None of this has anything the fuck to do with finding this or any other pornographic image misogynistic or otherwise demeaning to anybody.
and last but not least
5. Your own history of calling people dicksuckers and the like and otherwise having no problem ever with the use of sexual imagery on this blog to demean those you disagree with.
it’s hard to decide which is more remarkable, your willful obtuseness or your hypocrisy.
eemom
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Now THAT is funny, fuckie.
jamurph
On the one hand, I would like to see a regular series of blog posts in which we defend conservatives from unfair attacks. Maybe if we show them how morally superior we are, they’ll stop their legislative war on women, gays, brown skinned people, and non-christians….
And we shit in the other hand. Let’s see which one results in greater results.
I’m embarrassed to be a liberal. We are the most ineffective and weak assemblage of people in all of history. All we do is fight over stupid shit like this and attack one another. We need to fight more like the right wing does. We need our politicians to be afraid of us like republicans are of their base. Currently, democrats hold us in contempt and I can see why.
Do you like losing? Keep it up.
Porn is anti-woman? FFS, then every straight man alive hates women….
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Just Some Fuckhead:
None of us will properly atone for Ward. I gave up.
Citizen Alan
@Jeff Spender:
Because I have outrage fatigue. Because there are simply not enough hours in the day for me to be properly outraged over an offensive photoshop of a GOP operative when there are right wing preachers openly talking about death camps for homosexuals to the rousing “Amens” of their congregations. The Hustler image was disgusting. It was, however, not even in the top fifty disgusting things I’ve seen and heard from the right in the past few weeks. I’ll do my best to get around to being viscerally outraged about it just as soon as I can.
Danny
@jamurph: Photoshopping a dick down a woman’s (or a homosexual man’s) throat because you disagree with them is a bit offensive, yes. But that’s a problem for Larry Flynt (and everyone who comes out in his support) to deal with – not for “the Left”.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Odie Hugh Manatee: That’s why THEY WIN. And that’s as far as I’m willing to think about it. I’m done with the subject.
Citizen Alan
@J.W. Hamner:
Hustler magazine is “discourse”?!? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Just Some Fuckhead:
/applause
;)
@Citizen Alan:
They have truncated “distance” and “intercourse” into “discourse”, removing the “inter” since operating the mag is a one-man, one-hand operation.
slag
@Danny:
I’m sure the folks at Planned Parenthood will keep this in mind when Stalin endorses their organization.
DougJ, Head of Infidelity
@J.W. Hamner:
Is that snark?
If so, good stuff.
cynn
I am offended by your right to be offended. That is all.
shortstop
Just realized I have never looked inside a Hustler. Does it always look like it had a high-school sophomore designing it? Those fonts!
J.W. Hamner
@DougJ, Head of Infidelity:
Uhm no. You daily rail against the concept of civil discourse and therefore you give tacit approval to people putting out stuff like this. Your post above shows you don’t care about it, so QED.
PopeRatzo
I am absolutely not outraged by the photoshopped image of S.E. Cupp.
I’m outraged by S.E. Cupp. I find her much more offensive than an honestly offensive photoshop job. At least Hustler isn’t pretending to be something that it is not. I’m betting that one of the very first cave paintings were of an image of somebody taking it up the arse.
On the other hand, I am neither outraged nor surprised by the photoshopped image of Barack Obama. I am outraged that so many of the “serious” voices on the Right claim they are not racist.
Snap Quiz: Which of the two images do you think got emailed to more people? The pornographic Hustler magazine image or Barack Obama as an African witch doctor? Which of the two images is more likely to be on the computer of a sitting governor or member of the US House of Representatives? The S.E. Cupp photo from Hustler Magazine or the picture of Barack Obama as a Witch Doctor.
Do not give me that false equivalence stuff. I reject it when Broder does it and I reject it here. The Right and the Left are not the same, and “both sides” do not “do it”.
different-church-lady
@LT: As usual, you appear to be objecting to something, but I’ll be damned if I can decode what it actually is.
cynn
I@PopeRatzo: Easy, it’s the Obama photo; he’s the one with the loincloth.@PopeRatzo:
different-church-lady
Wouldn’t it be easier if we all just said, “You’re so right, Cole,” and move on?
LT
@different-church-lady:
This is actually too much for you?
gaz
@Svensker:
As much as glibertarians are wrong about nearly everything, there are a minority of women in the sex business who feel this way (my ex was one of them, as are more than a few of my friends) Also, it’s an easy gig if you can adopt that mindset. Some can. Mostly I’ve found that of women who don’t need to do it for the money – like my ex. I don’t personally know any men in the trade – at least not closely, so I can’t say boo about them.
different-church-lady
@LT: Hang on, I’ma try to diagram that sentence…
different-church-lady
Okay, after reading about a third of the comments I think I can safely say a whole lot of you take this three-bit blog far too seriously.
LT
@different-church-lady: Oh you poor thing. Did it hurt?
Brachiator
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Bullshit. Cupp is either a woman hater or someone who willingly aligns herself with woman haters. You think that there is some special obligation to extend to her the respect which she would deny other women. I don’t.
At best she is only entitled to the same weak apology that she thought acceptable for Limbaugh to offer Fluke.
And then she should be put in a room, with protection, with all the woman haters like the Twitter moron who still think it acceptable to bash Fluke and other women. I would like to see Cupp and all the other men and women like her held to account for the vile stuff that they have spawned, and which they still have no problem supporting.
C.S.Strowbridge
S.E. Cupp uses sex appeal to promote herself.
She can’t complain if someone then uses that against here.
The two images are not analogous.
different-church-lady
@LT: Did what hurt?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Brachiator: I don’t care about SE Cupp. If she and everyone else at Fox dropped dead tomorrow I’d walk with a little spring in my step.
The thing is, any woman can be humiliated in the way SE Cupp was. Nearly all of them have, or have gotten it worse. Trying to make that happen less often is a more important goal to me than scoring some cheap points on some Fox nobody.
“To hell with SE Cupp” and “to hell with Larry Flynt” are not contradictory ideas.
Villago Delenda Est
@Soonergrunt:
Doesn’t change my opinion of that opinion. It’s right on.
Stop feeding the damn Larry Flynt energy creature.
Villago Delenda Est
@slag:
Still waiting. I’m calling your bluff. Cite a specific example. So far, I’ve yet to see one that explicitly says it’s “OK”. I have seen people not that SE Cupp is something of a self-hating woman herself, and that she meekly accepted the pathetic non apology of the Nazi tub of lard who slandered Sandra Fluke.
TheMightyTrowel
@jamurph: “Porn is anti-woman? FFS, then every straight man alive hates women….”
While I don’t personally agree, this is not the out-there argument I think you mean it to be. It certainly has been argued that many if not most hetero men do not view any woman as fully human, a situation which probably does constitute hate.
Danny
@slag:
I’m not talking about Stalin and PP. I’m talking about me, some random leftie, and a fringe character or organization supporting some leftie cause. Do I have a responsibility to volunteer my disapproval every time some Flynt, Manson or Kervorkian supports a part of the Democratic platform and donates 500$ to Russ Feingold PAC?
J.W. Hamner
@Villago Delenda Est:
Did you not see the 5th post in the thread in question?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@PopeRatzo:
Ummm… both?
What did I win?!
@J.W. Hamner:
You picked Climax as your broad brush to paint everyone with?
Damn that’s funny!
justawriter
So John, can we also expect a front page denunciation of Hustler’s portrayal of Jerry Falwell as having incestuous relations with his mother in an outhouse? Or is our outrage strictly gender based?
J.W. Hamner
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Dude asked for an example and I gave him one. Here’s another guy agreeing with him. And here is another lamenting that she gets to be a victim. Maybe they’re all sock puppets, but it’s not hard to see within the first 50 or so comments why Cole felt the need for this thread.
Karl Rover
When SE Cupps is elected President I’ll care about her photos. Otherwise, there is no comparison and just more both sides do it equivalency nonsense.
Some Guy
You all agree with Cole’s basic premise: This is bad.
Why are you even arguing about this? Why are you guys making shit up?
I see more people outraged at the outrage rather than the damned picture.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Some Guy:
I’m outraged at the outrage at the outrage at the outrage. Nobody out-outrages me at outrage, I stand alone in my outrage.
Though that could be because of my lack of deodorant.
But outraged? YES!
Some Guy
@Odie Hugh Manatee: So you have no reason for berating Cole? I was asking a legitimate question. What was so offensive about Cole’s posts that it required this level of outrage from people like you?
From what I’ve seen, the initial post was Cole examining his feelings about the event. He was not recommending any actions or being very outraged. To paraphrase that post: “I thought nothing of it because I disagreed with the victim, but an enlightening blog post change my attitude. This is bad.”
What is so offensive or rage worthy about that?
gaz
@Some Guy: Because it should have been ignored. Hustler loves the attention. We now have 3 front page posts on it here within a 24 hour span.
Hustler is the only one that has benefited from this whole mess. They don’t deserve the attention. It’s a porno mag – and a particularly trashy one at that. It doesn’t matter what they print.
Some Guy
@gaz:
Why do I care if he is merely seeking attention? Do we ignore all injustices because giving attention to it vaguely, indirectly benefit a scumbag? What is more important: Hustler getting some attention, or liberals showing that sexist bullshit is not okay.
Anyway, just because someone likes attention doesn’t mean that this it is good for them. See Rush Limbaugh or Mitt Romney.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@gaz: If it should have been ignored, then why didn’t people ignore it?
Cole’s first post could have vanished. A couple of heh-indeeds and then gone forever like the vast majority of posts at this site. Instead it got hundreds of replies, most of which tore into Cole for daring to mention it. That’s why we have two follow up posts, not because those pictures are so goddam interesting.
I keep hearing so much about how we need to ignore this from people who are pretty blatantly not ignoring it.
And can we please stop pretending we care that Hustler got attention from this blog? Or at least be consistent and condemn Sandra Fluke for talking about it as well.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Some Guy:
Because the left doesn’t use porn magazines to represent them. This was done by Flynt as a publicity stunt and right wing bait at a time when tempers are high on the right (when haven’t they been?) and John fell into it by responding to it. By talking about it you embrace fighting it, it’s ‘yours’ now. While there’s nothing wrong with that, pornography is here to stay. No amount of fighting is going to make it go away.
John better be ready to decry every single example of misogyny that the right cries wolf about from now on, he’s set the new standard.
Good luck with that John.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Decrying things is so hard. I mean, just look:
“I condemn these pictures of SE Cupp in Hustler as misogynist.”
Holy mother of God, was that exhausting. I don’t know how I made it all the way to the end!
I need to lie down and rest. That exertion might have taken years off my life.
It’s grand that you’re here to warn people away from ever condemning misogyny, since apparently doing it once in public binds you by a demonic blood oath to condemn every act of misogyny that will ever be committed in this or any universe for the rest of time. Also, if you ever condemn someone’s misogyny, it’s exactly the same as saying you’re associated with that person, because nobody ever condemns people they don’t like.
This misogyny condemning stuff is hard. I think I’ll give it up. Then maybe this guy named Odie will think I’m cool.
Anonne
I am of two minds on this. Of course, we should want more civility in our political discourse.
However, this is Hustler we are talking about. It is, in its very essence, vile misogyny.
Hustler has the right to be vile to everyone on an equal opportunity basis. Politically connected demi-celebrities shouldn’t be immune to Hustler’s criticism. Consider all the nameless women that have been objectified that way (and in the flesh) all these years by Hustler. Where is the outrage for them?
As political commentary, it is not acceptable. But compared to what Hustler does to unknown women every day? I don’t see why it’s particularly out of bounds.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Anonne:
Because if you don’t say something about it then it will keep happening! Puppies will be kicked! Or something like that.
It’s a tempest in a toilet.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Do you want a pat on the head to go with that?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Odie Hugh Manatee: No.
Keep up the good fight, man. Hopefully some day nobody will ever condemn misogyny again. It won’t be gone, of course, but you won’t have to worry your little head about it. And that’s the important part.
Anonne
As I commented in the original thread, I object to Hustler ab initio, for its very existence. I find it odd that we are focusing on this one instance of vileness just because it involves a political figure.
If people object to Hustler’s objectification of women in general, then to me it is perfectly fine and natural to feel free to object to it in this instance. But if people generally don’t mind the existence of porn, which by its nature is exploitative of women, I feel that those folks need to check themselves.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Well you just stay right here and fight that glorious fight against pornography, blog warrior, I’m sure that somebody will notice. As it is, this topic has been beat to death here. It’s time to move on and let you real warriors clean up the mess. I do have to say that it’s strange that the rest of the web seems to be mostly silent about this.
Maybe they’re all busy viewing porn?
The Othe Jerome
Some black kids beat up a white kid some where in America the other day (according to fox news) as a black man, it is my duty to condemn the attack whenever a white person demands that I do so….. Even though i don’t know those people. I have to affirm again and again upon demand that beating up people is a bad thing. And if I ever don’t affirm such, it is proof that i agree with the racial attack.
Some person, whom conservatives claim is a liberal, somewhere published some smut about some conservative somewhere. As a liberal, I must denounce that person when ever a conservative demands it. Otherwise its clear I agree. #makestotalsense
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
For fuck sake, if you don’t want to denounce something then don’t.
This leap from “I denounce this thing” to “I demand that everyone else stop and denounce this thing too” is in your head. You made it up.
Why are people being so fucking defensive about this? What the hell is it about Cole saying that he doesn’t like misogynist bullshit that’s making you feel attacked? This makes no sense.
It’s like if I said I didn’t like some movie, and you got offended even though you don’t like the movie either. It makes no goddam sense.
brantl
While this is very offensive, I have to say that S.E.Cupp is one of those people who say that they drive a big, gas guzzling car just to piss off people with “green, tree-hugger inclinations”. In other words, a professional asshole. She has now run into an antithetically dispositioned asshole.
Karma, neh?
Amir Khalid
A lot of commenters here and in the other thread have reacted to this thing by saying, “S.E. Cupp isn’t one of us. Why bestir ourselves to defend her from a crude and sexist personal attack by Hustler, which doesn’t even pretend to speak for anyone?” It shouldn’t matter that Cupp is anti-feminist and in some karmic sense deserves this, or that Hustler is merely doing what it always does. Hustler shouldn’t be doing this to anyone. John Cole is right to criticize those whose sympathies for the victims of such attacks don’t extend to people not of their political ilk.
Kane
But apparently not so inappropriate and offensive that you don’t mind downloading said photos to your computer and posting them on your blog. Spare me the self-righteous indignation.