Via Sullivan and John Gehring at the Faith in Public Life blog comes this link (pdf) to the weekly bulletin of the Blessed Trinity Catholic church in Cleveland, Ohio.
On page 2, Father Doug Koesel takes aim at the Vatican and its attack on the Leadership Conference of Women Religious in a column which can truly be described as righteous.
I think it’s important to highlight this, first as a counter to those who, whenever the Catholic church is so much as mentioned on here, screech that anyone who remains in the church is a criminal co-conspirator, and also because it provides a fine counterpoint to the reports that Cardinal Timmy Dolan is a bare-faced, shit-pants liar who paid pedophiles to retire and then lied through his pointy teeth about it.
However, the most important reason is because, in the current environment in the Catholic church, this is a fine example of a brave man standing up to be counted on the side of the angels and bugger the consequences.
You should go and read the whole thing, but this will give you the flavour.
This is what annoys American Catholics. The Vatican is hypocritical and duplicitous. Their belief is always that someone else needs to clean up their act; the divorced, the gays, the media, the US nuns, the Americans who were using the wrong words to pray, the seminaries, etc. It never occurs to the powers that be that the source of the problem is the structure itself. We can say that now with certainty as regards the sex abuse crisis. It was largely the structure of the church itself, the way men were trained and isolated, made loyal to the system at all costs and not to the person, that gave us the scandalous cover-up.
US nuns work side by side with the person on the street. They are involved in their everyday lives. Most cardinals spent less than five years in a parish, were never pastors, are frequently career diplomats.
Religious women in the US refuse to be controlled by abusive authority that seeks to control out of fear. They realize that Jesus taught no doctrines, but that the church, over time, developed what Jesus taught in a systematic way. Nuns have always tried to work within the system. This time their prophetic voices may take them out of the system. They may take a lot of Catholics and a lot of their hospitals, schools, colleges, orphanages, prison ministries, convents, women’s shelters, food pantries and, of course, the good will they have earned over the centuries with them.
This investigation is not about wayward US nuns. It is the last gasp for control by a dying breed, wrapped in its own self-importance. It is a struggle for the very nature of the church; who we are, how we pray, where we live, who belongs, why we believe. The early church endured a similar struggle. The old order died. The Holy Spirit won. Happy Pentecost Sunday!
I think the Vatican has bitten off more than it can chew attacking the nuns. There’s nothing scarier than a nun in a bad mood, and I imagine those rosary beads hurt like hell if they get you in the nuts.
taylormattd
I think I may have clicked on a movie like that once.
Tommybones
Sister Ann once lifted me off the ground by my tie for not filling in a word correctly on a spelling test. She scared the hell out of me. I hung there for a few seconds, feet dangling.
Bubblegum Tate
Wow, that guy pretty much eviscerated the Vatican power structure. Good for him–I hope others will follow his lead. And I hope he’s prepared for all the hatred he’s about to have to endure from those who pledge fealty to that power structure.
Clark Stooksbury
Perhaps, “bugger” isn’t best choice of . . . oh never mind.
Todd
I’ll lay in a prophetic statement – that this priest feels the wrath of the Panzerpope within the next 5 days, and will be de-butted by the end of next week.
My vision is prolly a helluvalot more likely to happen than that of FatimaX3.
Watusie
Also today in Catholicism: the emergence of the smoking gun that proves that Cardinal Dolan is a lying child-rape enabler.
Why this isn’t getting more coverage I do not know.
I’ve been puzzled by him leading the charge against sluts and their slutty pill in such an aggressive and over-the-top manner.
Now I get it – he knew the shit was going to hit the fan eventually and was strategizing about how to get the right on his side to come to his defense.
I suspect that he will soon be joining Bernard Law in retirement inside the walls of the Vatican in order to escape prosecution in this country.
http://thinkprogress.org/polit…..e-priests/
srv
The only question is whether The Rat will use extra-judicial policies like he did in Central America. He must be miffed there aren’t any death squads in Cleveland on his speed dial.
Violet
Oh, boy. Another Catholic post. Change the church from within. Fix it by leaving. Priests are evil. Not all priests are evil. Nuns are the real church. Nuns are enablers.
I’m tired before this thread even gets started.
Cato
The future of the RCC is in the Global South. That’s who they play to.
It will be interesting to see how progressives react when Christianity becomes, essentially, a black and brown religion.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, I cheer for Father Doug Koesel.
I hope he’s got his insurance paid up.
The hierarchy doesn’t like this sort of attitude.
He may well find himself defrocked without the $20,000 incentive that the child rapers got from Dolan.
Jeff Spender
@Cato:
I’ll still be an atheist who calls out religious hypocracy and doesn’t let them get away with bullshit.
Why should color matter?
Cato
@Jeff Spender:
Because, I think, progressives have historically been harder on Christianity than Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism because it’s been identified with the White Man and 19th Century imperialism.
Notice the hand-wringing about “Islamophobia” and the Chinese repression of Buddhist Tibet, but hardly a word about persecuted Christians in Muslim countries.
Steeplejack
@Watusie:
Your link seems to be broken.
Holden Pattern
@srv:
Assumes facts not in evidence.
Jeff Spender
@Cato:
Or, maybe, it’s because it’s right here in our faces on a daily basis.
And last I knew, I was just as outspoken about fundamental Islam as I am about fundamental Christianity.
Methinks you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Cato
@Jeff Spender:
There are some that are just as outspoken (I’m thinking of Sam Harris especially) but most focus on Christianity.
Linda Featheringill
I read the piece in the bulletin. It’s a work of art: short words, simple sentences, unwavering loyalty to the plain truth.
Bravo!
Cato
@Jeff Spender:
Question:
Do you have a problem with newspapers publishing satirical cartoons of Muhammad?
Dave
Some guy in Cleveland defended… Nuns? Holy shit, where do I convert?
reflectionephemeral
@Cato:
This is silly. People are more wont to criticize what they can affect. US conservatives spend more time being critical of Barack Obama than they do of Bashar Assad. That doesn’t mean they think Assad > Obama, it means that they live in a given context.
Jeff Spender
@Cato:
Honest answer? No. In fact, it is well within their rights and I’ve actually written about this before at length.
But just because they have the right to do it, doesn’t mean that they should just do it because they can. As much as I hate to say it, extremists are dangerous. They really should consider the consequences of publishing such things and be prepared to deal with them.
It’s basically a call in which you put the right of free speech against a responsibility for public safety.
Cato
@Jeff Spender:
I can respect not publishing them for fear of violent retaliation. What I don’t like is when people say we must not publish them lest people are offended.
The fact that South Park can lampoon Jesus but not even DRAW Muhammad out of fear of retaliation does show that some religions are more violent than others, though.
dr. bloor
@Cato:
Your logic-fu is weak, Grasshopper.
Mike in NC
Oh, yeah. Many of us still bear the psychological scars, decades later.
Jeff Spender
@Cato:
This is sensible. If we limited what we can publish and produce based on what offends people we’d never be able to say anything.
A larger problem is that it gives religious freedom more consideration than freedom of speech or freedom of expression. I will respect a person’s right to believe in a god or have religious faith, but I refuse to respect those beliefs just because they’re religious.
The Bobs
“anyone who remains in the church is a criminal co-conspirator”
Yes, they are. Where do you stand?
Show me someone with actual power standing up to the hierarchy and I might change my view.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jeff Spender:
DING DING DING DING DING!
burnspbesq
Well done, Father Doug.
Thanks for the post, Sarah.
And don’t miss the Knights of Columbus Spaghetti Dinner on Sunday night. That should be a blowout for the ages.
burnspbesq
@The Bobs:
Give me a reason to care about your view, and I will.
Villago Delenda Est
@reflectionephemeral:
This is the sort of elementary reasoning that shitheads like Cato refuse to accept, because they know, deep down, that their positions are utterly unreasonable and tribal in nature.
red dog
@taylormattd: I don’t think the guys in charge have big enough balls to get in a fight with nuns.
Jennifer
@Cato: That’s crappity crap. Look, there may BE more religious extremists who are Muslim because 1)it’s the religion of over 1 billion people, most of whom are poor and many of whom are illiterate and 2)because of #1, more of them end up in extremist madrassas thanks to the lack of public education.
But there are plenty of Christian extremists as well. Perhaps you don’t remember how The Life of Brian was blackballed from the pulpit 30 years ago, or how when John Lennon said “the Beatles are bigger than Jesus Christ” people organized record-burnings, but more recently there have been abortion clinic bombings, doctor murders, etc. If those don’t seem as spectacular as the 9/11 attacks, perhaps it’s because the goal and the perceived “enemy” are different.
As for Buddhist extremists, I don’t have any idea what that would even look like. Is a Buddhist extremist one who does nothing at all?
Jeff Spender
@Cato:
See, now this is just not sensible. It ignores hundreds of years of Christian brutality and violence–as well as things lone nuts do even now.
It also fails to take into account that most Muslims I’ve ever known disagree vehemently with violence and the extremist point of view.
How many Muslims do you actually know? I’ve spent time in Dearborn, just to give you some clue as to my experience.
beltane
It’s good to know that Cato is a troll of all trades. I wonder if the RC Church pays better than Romney.
Jeff Spender
@Jennifer:
…Mind = blown. They meditate themselves right out of existence.
satanicpanic
@Jennifer:
Self-immolation.
srv
@Tommybones: I’m kinda torn too. The nuns were way meaner than the priests or brothers.
And the stories my uncles tell…
Jeff Spender
@satanicpanic:
Ah, I get it. The noxious fumes of burning human flesh represent an assault on American values of ignorance and no icky things in public.
Splitting Image
@Cato:
It already is, as far as I’m concerned. It dawned on me several years ago that most of the influential Christians that I admired as having a positive impact on public policy (Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, etc.) were melanin-enhanced.
There are plenty of good counter-examples out there, but the simple fact is that non-whites outnumber whites in the world by a considerable number. They would end up outnumbering whites within the Church even if North America and Europe were not shedding members as fast as they are.
Progressives who trash the Church will continue to do so regardless of who is the next Pope or who is the next guy to take up Pat Robertson’s mantle. A better question might be what will happen to denominations like the Southern Baptists that are devoted almost entirely to maintaining a segregated congregation. That’s going to get harder and harder as time goes on.
satanicpanic
@Cato: The fact that South Park can lampoon Jesus but
not even DRAW Muhammaddoctors can’t perform constitutionally protected medical procedures out of fear of retaliation does show that some religions are more violent than others, though.satanicpanic
@Jeff Spender: I’m just sayin’- lighting yourself on fire is an extreme measure.
Jennifer
I’ve heard people talk about mean nuns in Catholic schools, but the only nuns I’ve ever met I met in adulthood; my thought about those particular nuns was that they were very special people – in the very best way.
gwangung
@Cato: And is that a major factor in the progressive community?
Um, don’t think so….
gwangung
You mean like Liberation Theology?
Jeff Spender
@satanicpanic:
No, it really is. I just don’t like to think about people setting themselves on fire as a form of protest, so I snark about it.
You’re right, of course.
dr. bloor
@srv:
The nuns weren’t trying to get in your pants.
aimai
@Cato:
this is such complete and utter bullshit I wonder you can choke it out. We talk about Christianity because its a force in this country, for political harm in this country. I don’t bring up Chinese attacks on Buddhism very much in my daily life because the Chinese aren’t interfereing directly in my health care. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with Theocracy and the specific attempts of the current Catholic hierarchy (whatever color and whatever citizenship) to apply specifically Catholic theology to my secular life. When the Chinese or the Tibetan Buddhists or the Muslims of Egypt or of Iran try to impose their particular theories of politics and morality on my personal life I will definitely speak up. Meanwhile, I continue to advocate for religious freedom and freedom from religion around the world when necessary. This has zero to do with race or bigotry and everything to do with the refusal of American Christianities to accept second place in a secular society.
aimai
satanicpanic
@Jeff Spender: Me neither. It’s really tragic. It does take guts though and no one is physically hurt. I wish suicide bombers would follow their lead and try not to harm others, at the very least.
Cato
See? My point about how soft the Left is on non-western religions is proven by the constant repeating on this thread that Buddhism is inherently non-violent. Some of you guys need to read Zen at War.
Oh yeah, and the guy that gassed the Tokyo subway in the ’90s? Buddhist.
jl
As RC spreads in the ‘global south’, and as their incomes rise, things will probably play out much as they do in the whitey tighty ‘global north’. And I will surely advocate for equal rights and women’s reproductive health for the black, brown, yellow and whatever, in the global south as well.
We have had an experiment in the Philippines, and boy, they are such uptight Jansenist prudes, it is scary.
Ha ha. I am scared.
Were the old Catos such laff riots?
But first, has anyone investigated the spoof troll hypothesis? I have never seen DougJ Handwaver of Blog Jobs and Cato in the same place at the same time.
Rita R.
Bravo to Fr. Doug. Writing that took guts, because, as others have said, I expect he’s going to have a ton of crap come down on him soon, especially if that link goes viral. If that’s what most priests — and bishops and cardinals and the pope — were like, I’d still be a practicing Catholic instead of disgusted and enraged by all of it.
I also got a chuckle out of the hipster Jesus drawing a few pages further back in that bulletin. Made me think of “Buddy Christ” from “Dogma” and the priest character played by George Carlin, himself a former Catholic school kid from the Bronx (same high school as my dad) who caught on to the BS early on.
srv
@Jennifer: That’s the flying nun generation.
Good times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxDA9VsQG4
The yardstick is just epic. I broke two and that was just elementry school
jl
@Cato: Definite spoof troll territory.
satanicpanic
@Cato: Aum Shinrikyo was not Buddhist, come on. I don’t have any particular love for Buddhism or any other religion, but it’s a real stretch to say that Buddhism is some ominous force in the world today. You’re trying to paint Islam as a particularly violent religion so clearly you are not of the opinion that all religions are equally dangerous.
Cassidy
@jl: I’m just gonna go with dumbass.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cassidy: Yeah, dumbass. Might be a spoof as well, but definitely a dumbass.
Litlebritdifrnt
My DH just pointed out to me that the top show on ESPN right now is the National Spelling Bee. That is so cool.
jl
As crusty old second prez John Adams wrote to Jefferson, all the great religions started with a spark of divine truth. But being earthly creations, from a religious perspective, all earthly religious institutions are fallible and corrupt, and the earthly religions become corrupt, even if the core of their teaching retains some worth.
So, the earthly religious institutions must either periodically reform themselves or expire amidst the filth of their own corruption.
I think Adams made this observation about the same time he, a good Christian boy and faithful founder of a Christian Nation, opined that the Vedic Hymns were the purest and noblest expression of religious truth he had ever read, and asked Jefferson where he could find an English translation of the Upanishads.
Anyway, it’s in here someplace. I will have to dig up my copy and give some quotes some time.
The Adams-Jefferson Letters
The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams
http://www.ibiblio.org/uncpress/excerpt/cappon_adams.html
Chris
@Cato:
Utter horseshit. Liberals relate to Christianity and Islam differently for the simple reason that the political battles in this country involving the former aren’t remotely similar to the political battles involving the latter. Christian organizations are attacked when they try to deny gays the right to marry, adopt and serve openly in the military, for wanting to deny women the right to an abortion and access to contraception, and for, in the case of people like Mike Huckabee, openly demanding that the Constitution be rewritten to fit the word of his “living god.”
Muslim organizations are attacked for trying to build YMCAs.
Conservatives see liberals responding differently to two extremely different types of situations, plaster it all over the airwaves and squeal “SEE! Libruls love Muslims more than Christians! Political correctness! Liberal bias! Oppression!” Etc etc etc.
Show me a time when Christians are under attack for wanting to build a YMCA in Manhattan, and I suspect most liberals will defend their right to do so just as they defended it when it was Muslims. Show me a time when Muslim organizations are anywhere near as politically powerful as the Christian Right in this country and try to use that power to restrict the rights of American women and American gays, and I suspect most liberals will attack them for it just like they attack Christians. Right now neither of these things is the case.
(In Muslim-majority countries, American liberals DO attack Muslim organizations for doing these things. Back in the 1990s, the women’s rights lobby (you know, those same faggy Muslim-loving feminazis we all know are traitors to America) was virtually the only group in Washington lobbying against the Taliban. Not the Christian Right, not the libertarians, not Fox News or the NRO – these guys were nowhere to be seen. And the feminists did it successfully enough to sink an oil pipeline deal that the Clinton administration had supported).
In short, the entire “waaahh, they love the darkies more than us” thing is utter bullshit, though naturally the conservative base eats that shit up as yet another reason to wallow in self-pity. But who are we kidding, they’ve never needed much of a reason for that.
slag
If it makes anyone feel any better, I dislike all religionists equality. Except for Buddhists. Those guys apparently kick ass.
maven
Mohammed; in any mood.
Brian R.
@Cato:
Or, maybe it shows that some religions strongly encourage the use of religious icons depicting their revered figure — festooning their houses of worship with the figure’s image represented in statues, pictures, mosaics, stained glass windows and, in a place of central honor, his broken body nailed to a cross … and some other religions don’t.
One encourages icons, the other forbids it. Simple as that.
It has nothing to do with whether or not one is more violent or not. Christianity has been the motivating factor behind epic waves of violence, from the Crusades to the Inquisition … to the 20th century bombing of abortion clinics and murders of doctors. The fact that no Christian has killed someone for producing an image of Christ doesn’t change any of that.
Brian R.
@Rita R.:
It already has. We’re reading it here.
He’s going to catch hell for this, so it might be nice to drop him a line: [email protected]
Mnemosyne
Given that the infamous “Muhammed cartoons” were published multiple times in multiple newspapers over a period of months before the desired violent reaction occurred, I don’t think it proves the “Muslims iz skeery and violent!” thesis as well as conservatives seem to think.
More like, if you repeatedly insult someone to their face over a period of months, eventually they will punch you. Crying about how awful and violent that person is afterwards means you’re a whiny-ass titty-baby who’s not willing to accept the consequences of his actions, not that the person who punched you is dangerously violent.
Uncle Cosmo
You think maybe Ratso will dip into petty cash & offer Fr. Doug a few thousand smackers to leave quietly, just like Timmy Dolan did with the child molesters?
Hell no, you’d say, & you’d be right. Among other things, Fr. Doug doesn’t sound like someone who could be bought off.
My guess is that if he’s lucky he’ll get a midnight call from one of Ratso’s thugs telling him he’s being transferred to some moth-eaten parish in the middle of nowhere & he needs to STFU if he knows what’s good for him. If he’s unlucky, said thugs will simply dig up some parishioner who can be conned &/or bribed into falsely accusing him of some repulsive crime for the glory of Holy Mother Church–& the persecution & eventual unfrocking of Fr. Doug will be hailed by Ratso & Co. as showing how serious they are about cleaning up HMC…
Svensker
@Mnemosyne:
Pertikularly if you’ve been bombing the shit out of their countries and killing, maiming, torturing, and imprisoning their citizens. Tends to make people a bit testy. Except for Muslims, apparently, who are not like any other humans and who don’t love their families, have no respect for human life and don’t mind being insulted, killed, etc. They’re so odd, those Muslims!
Ronnie P
Well, I have to say Cato has a point. Buddhism might seem peaceful and progressive in theory (don’t they all), but it isn’t s squeaky clean as some seem to think.
More like, if you repeatedly insult someone to their face over a period of months, eventually they will punch you. Crying about how awful and violent that person is afterwards means you’re a whiny-ass titty-baby who’s not willing to accept the consequences of his actions, not that the person who punched you is dangerously violent
I couldn’t disagree with this more. I feel no obligation, as a liberal, to respect the Muslim belief that images of Muhammed are insulting.
Heliopause
How do you know the Deity is not on the side of the hierarchy?
PhoenixRising
@Heliopause:
Matthew 7:16.
Father Doug is my aunts’ pastor. I’m not at all surprised at this bulletin.
dopeyo
@Heliopause: “…the Deity is / is not on the side of the herarchy??
i think what’s-his-name-the-nazarene said something somewhat negative about the establishment of his day, the scribes and pharisees, that they were whited sepulchers, immoral, etc.
i think he also said “go and make disciples of all nations” but i never saw any instructions to go set up shop in rome for a 2,000 year run on high-priced art and fashion. and deviant sexuality.
gian
By declaring war on behalf of the 13th century on the modern american catholics, ratzinger and his henchmen are really running the risk of becoming irrelevant. That is the essential risk I see them ignoring. The less the church deals with the reality of how people actually live, when it doesn’t have the power of the state to impose it’s will, the more it will be ignored. I think perhaps John the 23rd understood this. Ratzinger doesn’t. And modernity will hit the third world too. Brazil may celebrate carnival before lent… but I’ll bet they use the pill and condoms too
Heliopause
@PhoenixRising:
@dopeyo:
Matthew 23: 2-3
How do you know the Deity is not on the side of the hierarchy?
Mnemosyne
@Ronnie P:
No one’s saying you have to. But repeatedly shoving the same images into someone’s face over a period of months while going, “What, does this bother you? Does this bother you? Does this bother you?” is a remarkably assholish thing to do, and if the person you’ve been doing it to decides to punch you in the stomach, don’t come crying to me about how meeeaaannnn they are for not letting you taunt them indefinitely.
There was severe, deliberate, and calculated provocation in the Muhammad cartoon controversy that took place over the course of several months, and yet people in the US talk as though one cartoon was published and suddenly people started rioting out of nowhere.
forked tongue
Uh, I’m sorry if this steps on anyone’s corns, but [screech] anyone who stays in the church is a criminal co-conspirator.[/screech]
You just pretty much lost me, SP&T.
burnspbesq
@forked tongue:
You’re not stepping on my corns. I already knew you were an idiot.
forked tongue
Uh wow, that really wounds. Who the fuck are you?
middlewest
So, just to be clear, after centuries of theists claiming to have a monopoly on human morality and a magical source of ethical guidance, I’m supposed to cheer and applaud some group of them for figuring out that child rape is bad, and somebody should probably do something about it.
Nathaniel
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/us/cardinal-authorized-payments-to-abusers.html?_r=1
Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan of New York authorized payments of as much as $20,000 to sexually abusive priests as an incentive for them to agree to dismissal from the priesthood when he was the archbishop of Milwaukee.
Questioned at the time about the news that one particularly notorious pedophile cleric had been given a “payoff” to leave the priesthood, Cardinal Dolan, then the archbishop, responded that such an inference was “false, preposterous and unjust.”
But a document unearthed during bankruptcy proceedings for the Archdiocese of Milwaukee and made public by victims’ advocates reveals that the archdiocese did make such payments to multiple accused priests to encourage them to seek dismissal, thereby allowing the church to remove them from the payroll.
gaz
Good on Father Doug Koesel. Maybe when Dolan or the other miscreants tell him to kindly STFU and/or get lost, he’ll realize what a hopeless endeavor this is. He may as well scream at a hurricane.
The catholic church has been broken for years, possibly since it’s inception. The pope is an inherently unchristian idea – Christ does not need a vicar. A vicar if anything is a man acting in place of god. Anyone who is even remotely familiar with scripture will understand what man in place of god means. Nothing good comes of that. The institutionalization of faith cannot lead to anything other than the corruption of faith. To put barriers between a person and christ is to come between a relationship between a follower and jesus. The catholic church is broken. It was never designed for anything other than control of people in any case. If anyone can’t see the evil in the phrase “Holy Roman Empire” they really need to have their head examined.
A long history of pederasty, torture, anti-humanism, and the amassing of political power and wealth by an institution that seeks to confine god, and dole it out in doses on it’s own terms?… This is what it looks like. Gee. Hoocudanode?
gaz
@slag: Jesus and Buddha carpooled.
Fortunately, Buddhism never got adopted as a dominant social club in this country, or we would have managed to ruin it as well.
FTR, Christianity works best when the people around you are trying to kill you for it. (half snark)
gaz
@Heliopause:
I’d say that an informed perusal of the New Testament would clear up any confusion in that regard.
Gex
Man, I look forward to the day when Catholics like this drive the culture of the church. That will be a good day.
Sort of like gay rights, Catholic rights will come when old white men who were born when only old white men had power die out. And right now I’m just feeling a lot of compassion for the laity. The current state of their church must be painful and difficult to endure.
sparrow
@Cato: Very true. Plenty of massacres on all sides. Therefore: Religions is bullshit. Always has been. I wish I could live to see us outlive it. (If we do.)
Pseudonym
@Mnemosyne: Severe provocation? Oh please. It was a collection of cartoon images. According to the all-knowing wikipedia, 139 victims were killed in protests, mostly by being shot by the police, and mainly in Nigeria, Libya, and Afghanistan. How many Nigerian, Libyan, or Afghan subscribers do you think the Jyllands-Posten had? So much for being an insult to a person’s face. It was a severe, deliberate, and calculated overreaction to a very minor provocation. People on this blog routinely and deliberately insult each other all the time (calling all practicing Catholics co-conspirators in child abuse, for example), but I haven’t heard anything about John Cole’s house being burnt down.
Sarah, Proud and Tall
@forked tongue:
In real life, I’m an atheist who hasn’t darkened a church for over twenty years. I just happen to believe in the slightly nuanced argument that, even though much of the heirarchy of the Catholic church is evil, it’s just possible that there are good people who might choose to stay in the church for reasons of faith, or because the church (not the hierarchy) is where they do their good works, or in the (however misguided) belief that they can change things from the inside, or just because they are 70 year old nun with no savings and nowhere else to go.
I think that suggesting those people are as bad as the pedophiles just because they didn’t instantly throw over their beliefs is just wrong.
neil
This guy’s life is going to get pretty complicated very soon. Good luck to him.
Cermet
Sorry but the pope has no nuts, so that bastard is safe, I guess. As for the Cradinals of Sin, they too have no nuts, except those monsters that try and put children’s nuts into their mouths.
grumpy realist
@Cato: You think that Aum Shinrikyo was Buddhist? Man, do you have THAT wrong….
Little known fact, but Aum Shinrikyo was based off the writings of Isaac Asimov. A religious fruitcake in Japan thought he should try to bring the Foundation into reality. Mix with a whole bunch of wafflely New-Age goodness, get used as a cover by North Korean spies, appeal to bright and earnest young people who can’t see any other way forwards–and you get the Aum Shinrikyo.
(I lived in Tokyo during the whole debacle and one of my friends is a reporter who researched the Aum Shinrikyo in detail.
ET
I went to Catholic school for 6 years and have a few thoughts:
I went their for an education. The nuns that I did have were there to teach, not be politically active. I don’t think my parents would have sent me to a school where the nuns were more concerned with political activism on my parents dime than they were about teaching.
Rome wants its nuns to be more political but it should look to its own history because being political didn’t always work well for them.
I just can’t take Rome serious on this – they have ZERO moral authority. One the one hand they are basically whining/yelling about the consensual sex and abortion but at the same time covering their ass if not outright condoning the pedophilia of its male clergy. The one is purely private matter and the other can seriously damage a person and their faith. Obviously the message here is that for Rome its the sex not the soul that is their primary concern.
Forum Transmitted Disease
South Park has drawn Mohammed. On multiple occasions. The troll dumped his talking point in here and not a one of you even thought to see if it was true or not.
Heliopause
@gaz:
An informed reading of the entire New Testament would do quite the opposite. Note from the exchange above how easy it is to cherry-pick desired passages to “prove” very different conclusions.
The hippie Jesus is built on the same sand as the conservative Jesus, selection bias. The real lesson of an informed reading is that these are disparate texts written by people with differing agendas. It’s no wonder that everybody, from American liberals to the Pope himself, can project their own desires into it.
It’s great that liberal Catholics are trying to clean some of the medieval nonsense out of their church, but constructing a mythical Jesus as justification, using the same methods that the conservatives do, is delusional, and cedes ground to the authority of ancient patriarchs who invented all this stuff in the first place.
gaz
@Heliopause: Interpretations aside (and yes, I basically agree with you on that point – broadly speaking) there is no interpretation of the scripture which allows for the covering up and of child-rape within their ranks, and no interpretation which allows for attacking the very people they’ve victimized (which the church hierarchy continues to do to this day).
I could go on, but that simple point is by itself unassailable.
gaz
@Heliopause: Interpretations aside (and yes, I agree with you on that) there is no interpretation of the scripture which allows for the covering up and of child-rape within their ranks, and no interpretation which allows for attacking the people whom they’ve victimized (which the church hierarchy continues to do to this day).
I could go on, but that simple point is by itself unassailable.
gaz
sorry for the duplicate. I went to edit, and it decided to make a whole separate post out of it. FYWP.
gaz
@Gex: They’ve had what, 1700 years to get their shit together? I’m not holding my breath.
xian
@Jennifer: they look like Tamil separatists.
Heliopause
@gaz:
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. The crimes of the RC hierarchy aren’t really relevant to the question of how we should read ancient texts.
gaz
@Heliopause: I disagree in that I think that the degree of disregard of scripture, in the name of spin control, at the expense of the victims is ENTIRELY a relevant point of discussion when it comes to the leadership of an institutional religious order. These people are placing their organization above god, above the well-being and safety of their members, above basic decency and well outside the teachings of Jesus. It’s not only relevant, but entirely indicative of where their priorities lie. Also, considering Ratzinger himself is involved in this mess, he’s not beyond judgement.
gaz
@Heliopause: Just to be clear, my initial response to you was not intended to move the discussion into the subjective nature of how we read ancient texts as such, but more an observation of how the Catholic Hierarchy has quite simply shown very little concern for the actual teachings of Jesus Christ. While my initial response was a rhetorical shiv, and a bit glib, unpacking the broader point I was getting at wasn’t about how we interpret the texts. Rather, it was about the fact that regardless of what rubber ruler you use, the Catholic Hierarchy is only interested in the teachings of Jesus so long as they dovetail with their own goals and ends. Any interpretation of the New Testament leaves the Catholic Hierarchy with a lot to answer for. They are vain, callous, self-serving, and fundamentally running afoul of the laws of both man and God, particularly God. The reason – the quintessential reason they get away with it is because they are wealthy and powerful. Humility in the face of man and God is a foreign concept for the Hierarchy. Respect for God’s law is lost as well. Love seems entirely absent from the minds of the Catholic power structure, as if it’s a quaint notion to them, rather than the entire point. Their hearts are hardened. The nuns at least, generally seem to get that, at least to an observable degree. It takes some serious contortion of scripture to justify the acts and nature of the Catholic Hierarchy. That’s my point, unpacked.
Heliopause
@gaz:
Again, I’m not sure of the relevance. I asked how anyone knows what side the putative Deity is on, and the answers I got were as predictable as the rising sun; He’s on my side because I found Bible verses that I like. I’ve persistently argued against doing this, as you know. You can argue separately that abuse coverups mean that God hates the RC hierarchy. Fine, but you’d have a hard time reconciling scripture with the notion that the first thing they should have done was call the cops. We can also ask the question, why can’t the Deity be on the hierarchy’s side even if we stipulate the deficiencies you list @99? But that would open up vast new territories for argument and I don’t think I want to go there.
gaz
@Heliopause:
I didn’t quote scripture, I quoted general principle. I was general enough that nobody who reads the New Testament could disagree with the sentiment I expressed. I explicitly avoiding delving into the game of scripture quoting (as I nearly always do). I even vetted all of my arguments with a missionary and religious studies major, and bible translator – one who works with SIL. I’ve done about as much as I can do at this point to present an honest and thoughtful argument. Why can’t God be on their side despite the deficiencies I list in 99? Because in every single case where those same deficiencies were present in the new testament the people who had them were called out by Christ himself. I dare you to find a counter example. If they repent, and if they change, that would be different. But that’s not the case. They have willfully abandonded God
gaz
@Heliopause: Also, as per the New Covenant, God does not hate people. I never said God hates these people. But God does not take the side of those that choose to abandoned his message in furtherance of their own goals.
gaz
@Heliopause: ” but you’d have a hard time reconciling scripture with the notion that the first thing they should have done was call the cops”
That’s a strawman. I never said that either.
On the rape angle, it’s the unapologetic covering up, and the continuing legal assault on the victims groups like SNAP that are indicative of a systemic and willful lack of repentance for their enabling of abusers. I’m also not saying they shouldn’t have called the cops. But the way that they’ve handled it speaks to a fucked up set of priorities. The rape thing is not the only example, just a blatant and obscene one.
“But that would open up vast new territories for argument and I don’t think I want to go there.”
And you’d be very wrong. I’m quite happy to go there, either on protestant or even Catholic grounds.
KS in MA
@Jeff Spender: Another of the larger problems is that the violent retaliation tends to be aimed at people who had nothing to do with drawing/publishing the cartoon.