John’s earlier post brought back some memories that were well tamped down.
But if you ask the modern GOP, I pay too much in taxes, and we do too much for the girl in line in front of me and Lolo Jones. We’re just a seriously fucked up nation.
Here, let me fix that for you:
But if you ask the modern GOP, I pay too much in taxes, and we do too much for the girl in line in front of me and Lolo Jones. We’re They’re just a seriously fucked up nation group of people.
I have no problem paying my taxes to help people like that young mother. Not so very long ago, while we were both in college, Soonerwife and I had to apply for TANF. My part time job at $8.00/hr and GI Bill and drill pay weren’t making the ends meet for a family of four. As most of you know, I was a surgical technician for a while both in the regular army and as a civilian after I got out. At some point in there, stressed out of my mind, I passed the Surgeon the wrong syringe during a procedure, and the patient almost died. My boss, a wonderful, caring person, fired me the next day because she and I agreed that my future wasn’t in the Operating Room anyway and this way I could get assistance if I needed it, which I couldn’t if I resigned.
We took out college loans, I took classes I had no intention of even trying to pass to get the full-time GI Bill payment, and we both sold blood plasma, and we still couldn’t pay the rent and the tuition and the books and the fees and the utilities and the clothing and the food unless we took out every penny we could get in college loans or we applied for whatever aid we could get. We were on TANF and unemployment for two semesters, and it was so degrading having to go to the office and stand in line, and get all these lectures about personal finance and responsible parenting. After that, we took out every penny in student loans that we could. I dropped out of school and volunteered to go to Iraq because my wife was always the smarter one and we figured her degree would be worth more in the long run, and if something happened to me, I had SGLI and she and my children would be taken care of.
I did anything I could to avoid the humiliation and degradation that we subject the poor in this society to because a debased, morally corrupted minority demands that we do this to the less fortunate. It is the flip-side of the prosperity gospel so popular with the white conservative crowd–God rewards the just with material wealth under this belief, and conversely punishes the morally weak with poverty. This cruelty to the poor is God’s Work, you see. I’m not much of a Christian anymore, but if Christ is the actual Christ of the bible I grew up reading, these people are in for one hell of a shock.
Most of the people I met in those offices were white divorced mothers, but some were young fathers trying to keep their families together. I never met anyone who was gaming the system, but they must exist because all of these people with fancy cars tell me so.
The real moral failing of our time, the real thing that makes us, as John stated earlier, “a seriously fucked up nation,” is that people who think that giving more to the rich will make them work harder and giving less to the poor will make them work harder are given any voice in the nation’s affairs at all.
And one more thing-correct me if I’m wrong, but DNC did NOTHING for Wisconsin Dems and the recall. Not one thin dime from me until Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is out as DNC chair. I’ll target my giving to individual races. Feel free to use this as an open thread in addition to the topic.
EDIT: And I’m wrong about DNC and Wisconsin. Thoroughly wrong. Good. I’m glad to be wrong on that score.
Baud
You’re wrong. Talk to Kay.
Scott P.
The DNC spent at least $1.4 million on the recall.
ruemara
You’re not wrong about TANF or the BS on GI Bill pay. Wrong on DNC efforts on WI’s behalf.
maven
I sit in amazement at the slaughter in my old tromping ground and how fucking stupid democratic leadership is.
Simply unbelievable. Where does one start?
A mere four years ago we owned the message; now our leaders can’t even verbalize it.
And it Isn’t all Fox news fault!
Spaghetti Lee
Could I at least put forth the theory that the DNC not doing enough for Wisconsin was that they were not being malignant or dismissive of local Democrats, but that it was a tactical error (that they hopefully won’t repeat) revolving around not having Walker talk about Obama’s national Dem shock troops blah blah blah out of state money blah blah blah? (Of course Walker would be nowhere if it weren’t for out-of-state money, but this wouldn’t be the first double standard regarding the two parties)
Stuck in the Funhouse
@maven:
I’m pretty sure WI has more registered dems than republicans, and with the vote looking like a landslide in a very high turnout election, seems to me it is the dem voters who voted for Walker with the problem here. Unless WI democrats are so fucking stupid, someone from the national party needed to hold their hands and wipe the drool off their faces, to get them to vote for the democrat. I mean, that is just a thought you might want to consider, before blaming nefarious dem leaders. Whomever they be.
Steve
I appreciate Soonergrunt’s willingness to self-correct, but really, isn’t it worth doing a little bit of research before making an angry pledge to never send another dime somewhere? Really now.
I find the worst thing about being a Democrat is not the losing, it’s the circular firing squad that ensues after every tough loss. There’s always someone who didn’t do enough, let’s go hate on them!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Spaghetti Lee:
__
No. Voices of moderation and sanity were expressely left out of the invite list for the gloomfest. Party crasher.
__
And may I say, having lived thru the 1972 national election as the first election I was old enough to pay attention to and understand at something resembling an adult level of comprehension, you people are a bunch of weenies if you think civilization is going to collapse just because of tonight’s result. Now 1972, that was a beatdown. And yet somehow, 40 years later, here we are. Still.
lamh35
@Stuck in the Funhouse: I saw somewhere that part of the exit polling said that 17% of the voters in WI were Obama voters who voted for Walker.
Frustrating to hear about WI results. But with all the crazy polling, it’s why I tried my darndest not to get caught up in the exit polling. If anything, I’m more mad that the networks called the election and there was still voters in line waiting to vote. It smacks of disrespect.
I guess I’m gonna stay away from pol shows and maybe the lib blogs for the rest of the week.
Right now, I’m watching “Push Girls” on Sundance Channel. It’s about 4 girls who are in wheelchairs and all they want is to be treated as normal people. They are frustrated about being in a chair, but they are not letting being wheelchair-bound limit their lives. they wanna live life as normal as possible.
It’s inspiring and let’s you see what real frustration is.
Good night guys. Going back to work tomorrow.
Soonergrunt
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
@Steve: Sometimes that person who didn’t do enough may be most easily found by looking in the mirror.
I’m glad DNC put money in. I’ll send them a check soon enough. But this was a tactical error with huge strategic implications in not being in for more than they were.
One wonders if there really is a complete break between this society, and the people who built it and maintain it. The war on public sector unions goes full throttle tomorrow morning, and right behind it is the civil service system, and what’s left of private sector unions.
Mnemosyne
@Steve:
Yep. People seem way more pissed at the OFA workers in Wisconsin and Debbie Wasserman Schultz than they are at the conservative billionaires who poured seven times the amount of money into the state than Democrats could afford.
PGFan
What an excellent, heart-felt post. The phrase “moral hazard” has the same affect on me as George Bush talking used to have – I just want to scream. The people who pontificate about “moral hazard” need tomatoes thrown at them; rotten, slimy tomatoes.
This is a painful and bitter night. I certainly hope Walker goes to jail — that will be some comfort. But we’re going to have to listen to republican crowing for awhile and it is going to be very hard to take.
I salute the folks who fought the good fight in Wisconsin — they will hurt the most. I hope they know that people all over the country ache with them.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@lamh35:
Given the results, I don’t doubt this exit poll stat. Which pretty much confirms, that for a lot of dems, (that looks about right for the end result) the salient issue was not over Walker, nor his assault on unions and other odious policies, but more a distaste for having this recall, for the reasons of policy disputes. I don’t agree with this sentiment, due to the fact of outside agitating by the corporate world by republicans and their deep pockets, and the sickening patronage Scott Walker has paid them. Especially the Koch brothers. But I think it is a legitimate reason for dems to vote against the recall by voting for Walker. It is stupid, imo, but a valid position for these folks.
Spaghetti Lee
I’d like to point out that, as of this writing, Walker’s margin has shrunk to 55-44, with large portions of Milwaukee and Madison not in yet.
Make of that what you will. I’d say it’s at least not going to be an embarrassing blowout, as we’re getting closer to the margin that got Walker elected in the first place.
BruceFromOhio
I dropped out of school and volunteered to go to Iraq because my wife was always the smarter one and we figured her degree would be worth more in the long run, and if something happened to me, I had SGLI and she and my children would be taken care of.
This is the cold calculus I want every single one of these soulless criminal ratfucking Republican leaders to endure every single day of their miserable fucking lives.
I run hot and cold on DNC & DSCC, too. Thanks, ActBlue, for being the stable friend that helps me through these long nights.
Thank you for your service, SG, and may Gaia bless you, your families, your lands and your loves.
fuckwit
Actually, the moral hazard is in bailing out too-big-to-fail banks and corporations and the rich.
What drives me nuts is how the rich have co-opted and completely up-is-down’ed the core tenet of the labor movement: labor busts its ass WORKING and the idle rich are the vampires and leeches living off of the work that labor does– that the RICH are lazy, whereas the poor work their ass off.
It’s actually true. If you have capital, then your MONEY makes money while you sit on your dead ass and do nothing. If you don’t have captial, you actually have to work for a living.
Somehow, that got completely reversed. In American mythology today, the rich are hard-working “job creators” and the poor are idle lazy bastards laying around eatting bon-bons and driving in Cadillacs.
George Orwell would have been impressed: freedom is slavery.
Spaghetti Lee
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
Yeah, but (and I’m someone who has some doubts about recalls as a political weapon) if you feel that way, as FlipYrWhig said in another thread, why bother actively going to the polling place and voting for Walker. Just stay home. A massive turnout drop will tell your story if you insist it be told.
I mean, I’m trying to obey my own rules here and not be angry. Disagree with the recall if you like, but why vote for Walker?
Spaghetti Lee
Here’s a story to bring us back together: http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/kosher-sex-celebrity-rabbi-shmuley-boteach-wins-nj-9-gop-primary.php?ref=fpb
Culture of Truth
I started worrying about this election when the drive to blame Wasserman-Schultz for a possible loss began a few weeks ago.
I agree this was important and the national group should help out if it can, but really, don’t start a recall of your governor unless you’re prepared to see it through.
BruceFromOhio
@fuckwit:
The “Slavery is Freedom!” gig is pretty impressive, too.
Greyjoy
@fuckwit: I think you mean “slavery is freedom”. Since that’s about where we’re headed.
EDIT: Jinx.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Soonergrunt:
Do you really think Obama getting personally involved or the DNC going balls to the wall, would have changed the outcome? I don’t, not even close. And yes, the wingers will be howling tomorrow, and we will see if that has any real national impact on the coming POTUS election. I don’t think it will for a second, but we will wait and see. But at least the wingers howling and trying to nationalize this election result, will not have the added effect for their effort, of tying Obama to the WI result. Most people don’t like do over elections, just over policy diffs, and tonight they weighed in, at least enough of them in one state.
piratedan
@Mnemosyne: well it was great that they had a chance to recall Walker, but then it got local….
Feingold seemed like an obvious choice (at least I heard him speculated here a bit) but he sat on his hands and refused to unite the party due to some issue with impurities with his bodily fluids or the like… then the guy who couldn’t beat this scumbag the last time still couldn’t muster enough support to beat the huge onslaught of out of state cash and the stepford voters of the GOP and their preference for their own bastard tyvm.
I feel bad for the folks of Wisconsin and especially those that have lived through Mr. Walker’s reign of terror and what will surely be “payback time” to come. Sorry you couldn’t convince enough of your neighbors that what happens to your fellow citizens can also happen to you.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Spaghetti Lee:
Because the message I keep getting from this entire fucking country is ‘GOP might screw around and screw you and me over sometimes, but the DEMS AND UNIONS ARE THE WORST MOST DIVISIVE AND DESTRUCTIVE THINGS EVER AND NEED TO DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!!
Enough of this country simply can’t suffer hippies and Dems to live, no matter how much they get personally fucked over by the GOP and their policies or how much they say they actually support ‘hippie’ policies before they find out Dems favor it.
lamh35
Walker won 36% of Union Households. That seems high right?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/05/us/politics/wisconsin-recall-exit-polls.html
RinaX
@Mnemosyne:
Pretty much.
Also, all I can do is shake my head as the same firing squads appear to be forming already. What the hell are people going to do after 2016?
BruceFromOhio
@Greyjoy: My timestamp can beat your timestamp, aka, great minds et al.
@Mnemosyne: :
See Calculus, daily, as explained above.
Mouse Tolliver
@Spaghetti Lee:
Not to mention people are STILL VOTING in those counties as of a few minutes ago.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Spaghetti Lee:
Dunno, you will have to ask the dems that did go to the polls and vote for Walker. I think that is stupid behavior over some misbegotten ideas on recall elections, and the sensible thing to do would have been to stay home, imo, if they didn’t like the recall.
I would hazard to say, those 17 percent of dems were acting on anger for whatever reason, by voting for Walker. It is their state, and they have the right to vote how they want.
To add. This was a state election for a state office, and nothing whatsoever to do with national office. Other than what people want to stretch it for that purpose. I’m not going to, because it was a state election for a state office. I don’t think many swing voters will either, for the coming national election.
David Koch
Boston beat the Heat in Miami to go up 3-2 in the series.
If only Debbie Wasserman-Schultz had attended the game the Heat would have won.
Linnaeus
@lamh35:
No, that pretty much follows the pattern. For example, McCain got 39% of Wisconsin union households.
David Koch
Hitler >>> Himmler >>> Heydrich >>> Debbie Wasserman-Schultz
Spaghetti Lee
@lamh35:
Interesting bunch of numbers. I think the kicker might be that 46% of people who voted voted for Walker in 2010, compared to 35% for Barrett. (The rest didn’t vote the first time, etc.) I’m also always amused by personal political ID numbers. I’d like to meet the 13% of liberals who voted for Walker, or the 15% of conservatives who voted for Barrett.
Another interesting number-Barrett won people making less than $50,000 57-43: that was one of his bigger demographic victories. And 91% of this electorate was white, so there’s a lot of poor white people out there voting Barrett. So can we maybe hold off on the ‘deluded white trash fooled into voting GOP’ narrative? If we need bad guys, they are who they always are-rich suburban fucks who voted Walker because they know they’ll be getting a cut if the Kochs take over.
Linnaeus
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
I agree with this. Neither a Walker defeat nor victory was going to have the resonance that a lot of people thought it would. Which doesn’t mean that this wasn’t an important election, but I would caution about drawing too many conclusions from it.
Spaghetti Lee
@David Koch:
Boston won? Crap.
Hill Dweller
@Stuck in the Funhouse: I suspect the Obama campaign knew a lot of his supporters were against the recall on principle. The exit polls seem to confirm their suspicions.
Union households voting for an avowed union buster is mind-boggling.
Beauzeaux
I don’t think there are many people scamming the welfare system and I don’t care if they do. It’s much more important that everyone who needs help gets than it is to filter out the occasional gamer.
Of course that’s the difference between a leftist and conservatives. They’d rather deny help to any number of people just to make sure than no one “took advantage” of the system. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work.
Water balloon
The worst part is Erin Burnett smirking her way through CNN’s coverage. The whole panel is overjoyed by Walker’s win. Just shows Americans desperately want the whole Tea Party program according to Gloria Borger. Banana Republic here we come.
BigSouthern
I’m sure there are people gaming the system because people game every system, but at this point my whole response to people who bring it up is “So the fuck what?”
I’m tired of living in a country where aid and access to the ballot are increasingly becoming some sick perversion of Blackstone’s formulation: rather a hundred innocent people go without than one person walk away with an extra $5 a month in TANF money.
And honestly, if I was in a position of need and had the means I would game the fuck out of the system, if for no other reason than the system games the fuck out of the people trying to access it. Some – maybe even most – of the social workers and case managers might be decent people, but I’ve heard way too many stories of people seeking benefits being out and out lied too about their status or eligibility or how much they were allowed to request. And when they aren’t being lied too, they’re being treated like criminals by the people who are supposed to be helping them.
One of the best analyses of the modern welfare system in America I’ve ever read was by Dave Simon in “The Corner.” He really nailed the fact that just trying to get continued access to benefits can be like working an 8-hour shift if the people involved feel disinclined to properly do their job.
Steeplejack
@Spaghetti Lee:
If you mean in agreeing that Shmuley Boteach is a colossal dillweed, then yes.
Percysowner
I was raised Unitarian, which is Christian only because it was founded when Christianity was predominant. I didn’t study the Bible. I do know that somewhere Jesus said “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven”. I sometimes wonder how all the rich Christians forget that part, but they do.
Personally I don’t believe in heaven or Hell. Heaven would get boring and no good parent would punish a child for eternity for any “sins” that could at most last for their lifetime. They may have to face everyone they ever hurt deliberately and feel the pain they inflicted, but eternal suffering makes God a sadist and a bad parent, so no, just no.
I do have a fondness for the idea of reincarnation. I can happily imagine the Mitt Romneys and other rich people who think so little of helping others coming back as a minority woman with no welfare, food stamps, sex ed, decent education or any way to find a way to improve their lot. I’m probably wrong, but just in case I vote for every school levy, every bond issue, pay my taxes without complaint, give to Planned Parenthood, Doctors Without Borders and the ACLU. as well as candidates who try to make life better for everyone. If I’m right about the whole reincarnation thing, I hope to come back to a universe where the majority of the electorate voted the way I do and I get to live with the choices I have made.
Sorry for rambling, but really don’t all these good Christians READ the Bible?
Spaghetti Lee
@Steeplejack:
Why yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Three cheers for colossal dillweedism!
lamh35
Good night BJ.
I’ll just leave you with the figures for Walker (~$40mill) and Barrett (~4.5mill). I believe most of the money for Walker came from Koch bros/pacs.
The Dem PACS have just not had the same fundraising prowess. I guess we don’t hae enough millionaires to contribute. But what I want to know if how much of the DNC war chest did people expect the DNC to use on one state (which the POTUS will likely win in November). There is an old song lyric that says “nothing from nothing leaves nothing”. The money just was not there on the DNC side to be able to contribute.
BTW, Why didn’t Feingold run for Gov? I suspect he would have been better than Barrett against Walker.
Spaghetti Lee
@lamh35:
$40 Mil to not even $5, that’s just astonishing. Before anyone starts blaming Obama or Barrett or Wasserman-Schultz or anyone else, I want them to think about what those numbers imply.
El Cid
If the social system isn’t set up to help the community of the righteous feel moral disgust at their social inferiors who failed to make the right and moral choices that the righteous did, what good is it?
Sure, there’s a certain rationality to trying to remove barriers to peoples’ worthwhile development, but this also robs one of the ability to know that (a) this barrier didn’t detain me because I was smarter and more moral and favored by God, whether or not said barrier was ever in my way; and (b) it makes me nervous that those I’m sure are inferior will escape punishment, and more importantly, escape my sneering gaze.
David Koch
Because he knew he would have lost. Walker’s approval ratings weren’t bad (51-47). You don’t dislodge an incumbent with 50-50 ratings.
Plus, Feingold wants to run for president in 2016 and he doesn’t want another loss on his record. It’s kind of hard to raise money when you can’t win your own home state.
David Koch
I blame the loss on Obama’s drone strikes distracting “the base” last week.
Quarks
@Mouse Tolliver: I believe you both, and that the margin is going to shrink. Largely because it’s been steadily shrinking.
The problem is that people, in part thanks to a media that trumpets original impressions, tend to stay with the original impressions — which in this case initially looked like a complete blowout with Walker getting well over 60% of the vote.
It would certainly help if the media would let people finish voting before trumpeting these impressions, granted, but I don’t see that happening.
satanicpanic
I’ve been there too SoonerGrunt. One thing they are right about though- going through this does make you stronger. At least, it made me angrier. At the Republicans. Fuckers.
Spaghetti Lee
I generally like Josh Marshall, but he can be a wanker sometimes. Here’s his latest post at TPM:
These are bad times for incumbents across the country and, frankly, around the world. A governor convincingly (we still don’t know the exact margin) winning a recall election is a big deal.
To his credit, he goes onto say that Obama’s still cruising in the polls, but still: Did Thomas Friedman ghost-write that?
Linnaeus
@Hill Dweller:
From the perspective of a longtime union member and activist like me, it’s definitely frustrating. But one thing you find out as you do labor work is that for some union members and union households, their membership in a union isn’t particularly salient for them. They may not care much for their union, but belong to it as part of the job, or they may be mildly supportive, but don’t find it an important part of their identity.
Omnes Omnibus
@Spaghetti Lee: Three governors ever recalled. Great statistical pool to analyze.
catpal
and the Repugs just want to keep Punishing the poor. “PA Gov. Corbett’s plan to start means-testing food-stamp recipients” — bar households with eligible assets of more than $5,500, and $9,000 for those with an elderly or disabled member, from receiving the federally paid food stamps.”
but at the same time – the Repug Corrupt Corbett just gave $1.7 billion tax break for Shell – of Royal Dutch Shell that made an astronomical $31 billion in profits in 2011.
I work with the Disabled and Seniors who will now need the local Food Banks even more. It is heartbreaking.
so the best we can do now is to donate to the Food Banks and orgs like Feeding America, etc.
Culture of Truth
I confess I’ve lost track. How many Democratic Governors were recalled tonight?
Spaghetti Lee
I’m going to try to leave out one last piece of candy for the doom-sayers. Walker’s winning right now about 54-45. Assuming that Barrett doesn’t pick up more votes from late-reporting Milwaukee or Madison precincts (a big if), that’s within a margin of error of his current approval rating and winning margin in 2010. The difference can, I think, be mostly chalked up to local political weirdness, anti-recall sentiment, and down turnout on the left.
Now, the fact that a little more than half a state would elect Scott Walker in the first place is itself a problem. But what this all says to me is that whatever you take out of tonight, it’s not that Wisconsin’s political makeup has changed. It’s not like thousands of Wisconsinites observed his first two years and said “Yes! I’ve seen the light! I suddenly hate unions and love Republicans!”
He won basically the same people and places he won before-just enough to win the whole thing. The news coverage will be annoying for a few days, but in terms of large political changes and future strategies, not much has changed. Wisconsin is not suddenly Alabama. Walker is no more invincible than he was before.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@Spaghetti Lee:
deleted, nevermind
Elie
@Soonergrunt:
Honestly — how is it the responsibility of the DNC but not, somehow, the responsibility of all the working class wisconsinites to remove this divisive and horrible Governor who is against fairly supporting the working class? Sorry folks — this is wisconsin’s loss and I am pissed that there fucked up shit and cluelessness will have a splash effect on other democratic races, etc. The wisconsin workingclass democrats have some ‘splainin’ to do — for themselves… Who the hell are these people and why oh why was this their decision. Sorry — I am not seeing how money along guarantees this. THIS is the most important question. Also, what did Wasserman-Schultz know that we didn’t know ? Clearly, there was a reason that the national support from the Dems was not strong. Why?
hitchhiker
That was a great post, soonergrunt.
The things we ask of poor people, I swear to God. Do other countries shame and punish the fuck out of people this way?
Spaghetti Lee
@Elie:
The Wisconsin working-class did its job, assuming you interpret under $50K a year as ‘working class’: that demographic went Barrett 57-43. You want to blame someone, blame the rich fucks in the Milwaukee suburbs. That’s almost 80-20 Walker territory, and there’s a lot of people who live there.
Elie
@Spaghetti Lee:
Yeah, I am taking notes but not buying it. Tell me why after all the effing effort to get signatures and all that, that THIS is the results? Why effing bother?
Seriously. Something very strange happened and more analysis will need to be done before anyone who is progressive can have any sense of understanding — forget comfort. An idiot — a divisive, hateful idiot was re-elected. Before, not everyone saw how hateful and idiotic he was. No excuse for that this time. They saw it, and still voted for it — again. Sorry that says something to me. Cheese heads. Yep. Lots of holes and a faint smell of fermentation and rot.
Elie
@Spaghetti Lee:
Well for Pete’s sake, didn’t the wisconsin dems and unions have those stats before they took this up?
Its jiu jitsu — while a loss is sometimes just a loss, some losses can mean more. They effing knew they were doing this in an election year for the Presidency and that a bad result could make a lot of things bad. Why are the Democrats always such stupid strategists? Its clear this should have never been undertaken
tam1MI
@Spaghetti Lee:
We’re fucked come November?
Spaghetti Lee
@Elie:
What ‘they’ are you talking about? Like I said, by the numbers, the people that voted for or against Walker voted for or against him this time. Some of them didn’t vote at all, and unfortunately more of them were Barrett voters in 2010 than Walker voters. The number of people who were convinced to vote for Walker by what they’ve seen is practically nil.
I know there’s a tendency after a loss like this to dismiss entire states as nothing but idiots, but even if that were a good strategy, there’s no evidence of it here. Walker hasn’t fooled anyone new since he’s come into office. The people who hated him still hate him and voted against him. The mostly wealthy suburban crowd who did vote for him liked what they saw, just like they did in 2010. I’m afraid I’m not understanding your complaint here.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
I just need to add too…I just don’t buy the bullshit of Dems voting against the recall on principle. I don’t mean that I don’t think people voted that way. I just don’t buy the fucking mindset, because everyone here knows if it was the other way, there’d be no fucking bullshit ‘vote against the recall on principle’ nitwittery. It’d be all full throat ‘KICK THE FUCKING DEM UNION SCUM BUM OUT OF HERE!!’ from top to fucking bottom.
I just….fucking….god, what the fuck……
Spaghetti Lee
@tam1MI:
You’re just a little ray of sunshine aren’t you?
I sort of agree with what you said that we should be allowed to be bitter and angry tonight and put on our game faces again tomorrow. When tomorrow comes, here’s my advice: Saying “We’re fucked we’re fucked oh god we’re fucked just cancel it they win we lose”? That does precisely nothing. It’s worse than nothing. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy and a sign of weakness, not to mention an annoying personality trait.
Here’s my take: Scott Walker, we came within 5 points of making you only the 4th recalled governor in American history, and you’re not even a felon (yet): your policies just suck that bad, so your own state decided to give itself a do-over at kicking you out of office, after just a year. We came pretty damn close despite you polluting the airwaves with money from out of state sugar daddies. So enjoy those nice comfy governors’ mansion bedsheets while you can, bucko, because your ass will be on the line again before you know it.
Spaghetti Lee
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
Well, that’s a counterfactual. If people really were actually voting against ‘the recall’ on principle, they’d vote for the hypothetical incumbent Dem, i.e. for the status quo. You may think that’s just a cover, but there’s no way to prove it.
killer
I dont care how much DNC spent. That you thought they did nothing means they did nowhere near enough. SHultz is the woerst kind of loser and I fear we will lose the senate because of her.
tam1MI
You’re just a little ray of sunshine aren’t you?
Yeah, I’m just a bag of monkeys tonight. ;)
In my defense I’m sick, I can’t drink, and I live in a Republican controlled state and I’m terrified they are going to come after me next and now there’s nothing to dissuade them.
I sort of agree with what you said that we should be allowed to be bitter and angry tonight and put on our game faces again tomorrow. When tomorrow comes, here’s my advice: Saying “We’re fucked we’re fucked oh god we’re fucked just cancel it they win we lose”? That does precisely nothing. It’s worse than nothing. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy and a sign of weakness, not to mention an annoying personality trait.
Yeah, I’ll be better tomorrow. But on the other hand, waving away negative results because they don’t conform to our happy vision is not going to make them go away. This election should really be a wake-up call to the DNC. 17% of so-called “Democratic” voters went to the effort to go to the polls and fuck over their own. That’s a problem that can’t be waved away. There is now bad blood between the Wisconsin Democratic Party and the DNC over a perceived deficit of support here. That’s also a problem that will have to be addressed. We can’t assume Wisconsin is in the bag because of this or that or the other exit poll. It is in enemy hands, and could well go for Romney this November. Every action plan should start with that reality in mind.
Here’s my take: Scott Walker, we came within 5 points of making you only the 4th recalled governor in American history, and you’re not even a felon (yet): your policies just suck that bad, so your own state decided to give itself a do-over at kicking you out of office, after just a year. We came pretty damn close despite you polluting the airwaves with money from out of state sugar daddies. So enjoy those nice comfy governors’ mansion bedsheets while you can, bucko, because your ass will be on the line again before you know it.
The one silver lining I see here is that Dems in Wisconsin have become real activists. Hopefully that can make a difference going forward. :)
Cacti
Soonergrunt, this race was a total turkey.
How many resources should the DNC have wasted on a candidate who now has the distinction of losing 2 gubernatorial elections in 20 months?
satanicpanic
If anything this race shows that it’s hard to unseat an incumbent and you need a good alternative
Spectre
This is further proof that working people should never trust the democrats. They already got sold out on pretty much every other thing, as did progressives.
Now the finally stab in the back. While honest, true believer democrats thought they were actually going out to fight, the Party left them for dead. Outspent by 30 million, and they couldn’t even get Obama to lift a fucking finger for them. Besides a tweet of course!
Disgusting. This will demoralize the good guys and embolden the union busters.
Thanks for nothing Dems.
Cacti
@Spectre:
And Predator Drones! Don’t forget the Predator Drones!
Fade22
I’ve never commented here before, but this post struck me so close to home that I just feel compelled to. I’m currently a grad-student at directional school in Michigan, and the student loan situation you outlined feels so familiar. The loans are basically my only means of support, and to be honest they’re helping to support a whole family. Unfortunately, I was recently thrown out of the food assistance program because the graduate assistant position I earned, pay taxes from, and spend 20+ hours a week working at doesn’t qualify as employment necessary to keep my benefits. I was told I could appeal, but honestly who has the time. I know that I don’t. I’m holding down a full course load (3.95 g.p.a.) in our school’s public administration program. On top of that, I’m working with my sister full-time, to take care of my mother who suffered a stroke and my father who has begun going blind. Thank God (or the FSM) for the help the administration gave to the Big Three, because without it we’d really be up against it. Unfortunately, even with the “gold-plated” UAW benefits, getting sick in this country can wipe you out financially. I basically sleep for 4 hours a night, and it’s still not close to enough to make a dent in the hole we’re in. And my real problem is that I honestly have no hope for the future. Does anyone out there honestly expect us to have a functioning government anytime in the near future? The right-wing always complains that the poor need more skin in the game. Well, for the love of God (or the FSM) skin is all I have, and it’s all in on our society being able to actually function. Functional government, it appears, is something that the far-right simply cannot tolerate. Sorry, if this reads like a ramble. I’m taking a break from an assignment due in 16 hours and just needed to get that off my chest.
Spectre
LOL. Msnbc has Lawrence O’Donnell leading off his broadcast with: “The big winner tonight? President Obama!!!”
How absolutely disgusting.
Mnemosyne
@satanicpanic:
I’d love for someone to show me an election where “Anyone But [Incumbent]” actually worked to oust the incumbent, especially when the election is being run as Round 2 of the previous year’s election with the same two candidates.
satanicpanic
@Spectre: Not even just words! Only a tweet!
Spectre
@Cacti:
I don’t see the relevance of your sarcastic jab, other than that the cost of 1 predator drone > the money the party put into this race.
satanicpanic
@Mnemosyne: I can’t think of any off the top of my head. I’m sure they’re out there, but they’d pretty much have to be of the dead girl/live boy sort.
Spectre
@Cacti: Howabout half, instead of 1/10th?
Cacti
@Spectre:
The recall ended up as Barrett’s unsuccessful vanity project. Who knew that a majority of voters wouldn’t want to elect the guy they rejected 20 months earlier?
Spaghetti Lee
@Cacti:
So Barrett’s gonna be the fall guy. Good to know.
Spectre
@Cacti:
You’re right. It was so hopeless that the Republicans decided to out-spend your party 7 to 1.
Such nonsense. This race was winnable, and the republican economic blitzkrieg is a sign of how winnable it was. They don’t throw that money in there for nothing. You also discount the power of a properly run campaign.
The union workers were considering a general strike to fight back against Walker. They were told “no don’t worry, trust us democrats, we’ll recall him”.
lol chikinburd
@tam1MI:
This may be the strongest argument in favor of attempting the recall in the first place. Hundreds of thousands of previously relatively-apathetic people have become veterans of political combat, and have learned a ton in the process.
As for the strongest argument against: yeah, it would have been nice if the DPW had put out some feelers beforehand to learn about how recalls would have been received under what circumstances and find this out before committing to a plan, but that ends up more of an indictment of their messaging strategy than in their decision to recall. The misconduct in office was there, in the form of repeated instances of the administration’s contempt for the law and the state (and Federal) Constitution, and it seems stupefying why they didn’t lead with it more instead of the policy stuff that was obviously policy stuff.
Cacti
@Spaghetti Lee:
I guess we could blame the underpants gnomes for him losing two elections for the same office in less than two years.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cacti:
Well mostly, I’m saying why does there even need to be a fall guy, at least on the Democratic side? I mean, it’s not like I think we need to or should run the guy again in 2014, but I also don’t see the need to blame him.
Cacti
@Spectre:
The voters disagree.
Anne Laurie
Soonergrunt, thanks for writing a great & most eloquent post. I hope someday (many years from now, of course) your kids have a chance to read & appreciate it. I still have my dad’s stories in my head, but he wasn’t a guy to write things down, and sometimes I regret that…
As for Wisconsin, and Walker, tomorrow is another day.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Anne Laurie:
Knowing the way the world works now, by this time tomorrow unions will have been outlawed in Wisconsin and the GOP will have already drafted the plans to do so federally, because why not, they have the total fucking carte blanche to do it now.
Caz
I take issue with your presumption that somehow the discussion of part of all this is “giving more to the rich, or giving less to the poor.” It’s offensive that our govt thinks that letting rich people keep their own hard earned money counts as giving them anything. The only thing our govt does is take….usually. However, when it comes to the poor, our govt does give. It gives what it has taken from the rich. It’s like an unconstitutional robin hood, where they rob peter to pay paul. Except we will soon have more pauls than peters, at which point the system collapses. Half of all Americans pay no taxes, while the top couple pct. pay most of the taxes. Meanwhile, the lower half receives almost all of the handouts.
Govt is creating a society of dependence, where most people are dependent on govt, thereby giving the govt control of them, while the rest are simply considered servants of the state, working hard and earning the govts money to hand out to the pauls.
Something has to give, and you’re sure not helping solve the problems!
Cacti
@Spaghetti Lee:
I’m saying that once Barrett was the nominee again, it was waste of time. The optics of the guy who lost fair and square wanting a mulligan 20 months later, just looked like so many sour grapes. The voters apparently agreed.
Spectre
@Cacti:
“we lost without trying, therefore it’s good that we didn’t try!”
God, the idiotic apologetics are dumb on a regular basis, but tonight it must be pathological.
Cacti
@Caz:
Taxing is unconstitutional?
Please repeat 9th grade civics, then wake me up.
Yutsano
@Cacti: It’s like the Sixteenth Amendment never happened. Without it I wouldn’t have a job!
Caz
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Carte blanche?? The dems controlled everything for the first half of Obama’s term and they accomplished squat. Now there’s a republican House and dems refuse to cooperate or even slow down their spending spree. Meanwhile, states, which are also in dire financial straits, have taken responsible measures to shore up their economies, e.g. Walker’s “union busting,” which is nothing more than slightly equalizing public employees with their private sector counterparts, and making them pay (omg!!) a nominal amount toward their own benefits.
Our national debt is approaching a doubling under Obama, and the spending spree shows no signs of abating.
So what do you expect we should do? Keep spending at insane levels until we are literally bankrupt? This madness has to stop, but I don’t hold out hope the D’s will get it anytime soon – after all, every measure proposed at the state or fed level to curb spending and rein in govt is met with an elitist, entitlement, self-serving attitude, so the bleeding continues.
Wake up, people!
Cacti
@Caz:
Please cite your evidence in support of this position.
Yutsano
@Caz:
You keep failing at this. A sovereign state can never go bankrupt. If we wanted we could print off enough money to pay every debt tomorrow. We don’t because that causes a whole world of other issues, but bankruptcy is impossible for a country. Unless you’re in the Eurozone. Which we’re not.
Caz
@Cacti: Uh, that robin hood phrase had a deeper meaning than apparently you could gather. There’s a lot more going on than taxation in case you hadnt noticed. Its not just taxes that are being used against the rich to create a class of dependents in this country. You’re still missing the point by a mile. Keep trying!
Cacti
@Caz:
Yes, the wisdom of bumper sticker claptrap was always lost on me.
So, how about that evidence that “half of all Americans pay no taxes”?
Soonergrunt
Caz, who just cannot apparently get enough Kochsucking in, doesn’t seem to understand some very basic things about economies.
Rich people almost never actually “earn” anything. They might be sharp enough to see an economic need to be filled, and like a project manager, they might then be sharp enough to figure out a way to marshal some resources to fill that need, but the actual earning is done by the people who design the thing, make the thing, move the thing, maintain the thing, and dispose of the thing, whether that’s the thing that filled the economic need or the things that went into the thing that filled the economic need.
Rich people, and especially people who are engaged in activity such as stock trading and other second and third order economic activities are parasites on the economy, not motivators of the economy. Like all stupid people, Caz refuses to see that if nobody’s buying, then there is no demand, and no products are being sold. Rich people do not create jobs. Demand for goods and services does that.
Secondly, the government is spending far less now than at any time during the Bush failure, of which Caz is no doubt very proud, but possibly not dumb enough to admit.
Mnemosyne
@Caz:
Really? So, to be clear, the town or city you live in has:
No police department
No fire department
No roads
No sewer system
No public schools
No public libraries
No local government
No bridges
No highways
Yes? You live in a field with a gas generator, well water, and a septic tank and never leave your own property? You never, ever, drive on a paved road, or go to the mall that uses the city’s sewer system and electrical grid, or have mail delivered by the US Postal Service?
Though I do love the irony of people using the government-financed internet to bitch and moan about how the government doesn’t do anything.
Soonergrunt
@Yutsano: Not only that, but Caz apparently loves him some failed Eurozone economic policies. The only countries that saw any significant economic growth this last year were the US and Switzerland, neither of which engaged in bullshit austerity measures. Germany’s economy actually shrunk by 0,1%
Europe’s unemployment rate tops 12%. Unemployed people don’t buy things. People who are worried about their jobs don’t buy things either.
Soonergrunt
@Mnemosyne: Not only that, but just about every single hero of these stupid motherfuckers got rich primarily by servicing government contracts and bids. The railroads wouldn’t even fucking exist without the government subsidizing them with huge land grants, rights of way, and their own subsidized pension system, to say nothing of special rights during wartime.
Without the railroads, there never would have been a steel industry.
Even Carnegie, Rockefeller, and Morgan paid their taxes and made sure to give their money away.
The rich don’t actually do anything useful, except possibly to assist the economy to distribute activity. Even that effect is tempered by the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few.
Mike G
Punishment-conservatives are loudmouth experts on things they know nothing about. Cadillac-welfare queens join other right-wing fantasy characters like “country club prisons”, strangely never described as such by anyone who has been a resident.
Or “lazy, overpaid teachers”. One wonders why there are so few punishment-conservatives joining this profession they constantly portray as cushy and lucrative.
Greg
@Hill Dweller: Some people don’t like their unions and wouldn’t mind seeing them busted. Remember, for a lot of jobs you have to join the union (or at least get dues deducted) if you want the job. Others like their union just fine, but like their guns/hate women and minorities more.
Fade22
I think my comment ended up in moderation purgatory, so I’m trying again.
I’ve never commented here before, but this post struck me so close to home that I just feel compelled to. I’m currently a grad-student at directional school in Michigan, and the student loan situation you outlined feels so familiar. The loans are basically my only means of support, and to be honest they’re helping to support a whole family. Unfortunately, I was recently thrown out of the food assistance program because the graduate assistant position I earned, pay taxes from, and spend 20+ hours a week working at doesn’t qualify as employment necessary to keep my benefits. I was told I could appeal, but honestly who has the time. I know that I don’t. I’m holding down a full course load (3.95 g.p.a.) in our school’s public administration program. On top of that, I’m working with my sister full-time, to take care of my mother who suffered a stroke and my father who has begun going blind. Thank God (or the FSM) for the help the administration gave to the Big Three, because without it we’d really be up against it. Unfortunately, even with the “gold-plated” UAW benefits, getting sick in this country can wipe you out financially. I basically sleep for 4 hours a night, and it’s still not close to enough to make a dent in the hole we’re in. And my real problem is that I honestly have no hope for the future. Does anyone out there honestly expect us to have a functioning government anytime in the near future? The right-wing always complains that the poor need more skin in the game. Well, for the love of God (or the FSM) skin is all I have, and it’s all in on our society being able to actually function. Functional government, it appears, is something that the far-right simply cannot tolerate. Sorry, if this reads like a ramble. I’m taking a break from an assignment due in 16 hours and just needed to get that off my chest.
asiangrrlMN
@Soonergrunt: Preach, SG. Your story is a sobering one, and it’s beyond infuriating to hear the Republicans talk about ‘the poor’ as lazy, shiftless, worthless people who just need to try harder.
@Fade22: Ugh. I hope you get a break soon ‘coz you deserve one. You can’t give skin you don’t have, and yeah, fuck the Republicans for wanting people in your situation to suffer even more.
Baud
@Steve:
FTFY. The DNC thing was discredited days ago…on this blog…yet here we had to do it again.
Br. James Patrick
SoonerGrunt.
You go right on believing in the Christ of the Bible, that you read about as a kid. He is still there, and His followers may have crazy political types among them, loudly getting attention, but He also has many others who work among the poor, feeding them, and teaching them ways of getting out of the systemic poverty that oppresses them.
Believing that God blesses the rich is a very old fallacy, given new prominence here in the prosperity Gospel belt, but as you say, Jesus hung out with the poor, and despised.
He would (in my opinion) struggle to communicate with many of His followers around here, since their worldview is so incompatible with His teachings.
Br. James Patrick
kay
Sooner, the DGA would be the entity that would give, and they did.
The DNC is the national org.
I really think there’s some confusion between the DCCC ( which is Right-leaning, IMO) and the DNC ( which is fairly representative of Democrats, nationwide, IMO)
Unions didn’t put as much money into this as they did Ohio (even adjusting for population:Ohio is twice as big as Wisconsin) because they knew it was a very heavy lift. It just was. It’s hard to recall a governor who’s at 50%.
I supported them 100% but it was a long shot, and long shots are brave and bold BECAUSE they’re likley to fail.
That Other Mike
Does Sully actually blog anymore? I’ve just been clicking through on the links over at the Daily Beast, and he just seems to quote wodges of other people’s work, with maybe one sentence of lead-in text.
And the more annoying part of it is that he actually gets paid for this shit; the Daily Beast et al are basically paying through the nose for a really crappy link aggregator managed by a hipster douchebag.
Joey Giraud
@Soonergrunt:
My favorite is Ross Perot, the anti-government-spending billionaire who got rich off of crony government contracts.
( payroll processing for the military, IIRC )
If the election machinery and the elected officials who oversee the election had integrity, then Walker would have lost.
Someday Americans will accept that and fix it. But for now it’s just conspiracy nut stuff.
Interrobang
I spotted this on PostSecret on Sunday: We stole the election. Our opponents laid bare our actions and no one believed them. Soon we steal the recall. No one can stop us.
Food for thought…
Clean Willie
@David Koch: How about this: If the Celtics outspent the Heat by a factor of 7, criticizing the Heat’s ownership-management would be a pretty natural thing for Heat fans to do.
Shithead.
someofparts
Thank you for that idea about supporting good specific candidates. There are sure to be plenty of good candidates around the country I can help.
I’ve reached the point where I just can’t support Obama. For me the final straw was Don Siegelman. Obama not only covers up for the attorneys and the judge who railroaded him, but asks for a 20-year sentence! I don’t know enough profanity to do my outrage justice. Siegelman is a political prisoner in jail for the crime of being a successful Democrat.
Howlin Wolfe
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: That’s a good point, TLTIABQ.
I had a thought earlier today. The billionaires who are bankrolling the ideological bubble that has a stranglehold on our national discourse spend millions, amounting to billions over time, to keep the ideological bubble inflated. The election spending, the think tanks, the propaganda outlets, etc., are expensive, and will keep getting more expensive as reality makes the bubble more untenable.
If these plutocrats are smart, they may figure out that the money they spend doing that will be better spent on the general welfare, i.e., taxes, charity, or production of goods and services that benefit the economy as a whole. If they think that they can wipe us out, they’re wrong, as you astutely pointed out, so they’ll either have to keep paying more and more for the bubble reinforcement, or start working with us. The first choice will end badly us and possibly the world; the second gives us a fighting chance, anyway.
Fade22
@asiangrrlMN:
Thank you for the kind words. I’ll be honest, my frustration with the entire situation is at epic levels. Most days this is what life feels like. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvcee2Dqk4I