Mistermix covered some of this earlier on the Wisconsin recall, but I wanted to expand on it. The good news: Turnout in Wisconsin was massive yesterday. The bad news: the election wasn’t about Scott Walker at all, but whether or not recalls over policy were even appropriate…and Wisconsin said “no”.
Republican Gov. Scott Walker has won the Wisconsin governor’s recall over Democratic Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, holding onto his job after his push to slash collective bargaining rights for public employees sparked intense statewide backlash.
Walker’s win caps a chaotic year in Wisconsin, marked by heated demonstrations, endless campaigning and a flood of outside money, all of which vaulted the state from ordinary battleground to Ground Zero of the national political debate — and elevated Walker to national superstardom among the Republican faithful.
Walker was favored from the outset, bolstered by an enormous cash advantage, and a firewall of support from national Republican figures.
And Walker went on to win by pretty much the 7 point margin all the polls were predicting, 53-46. So what happened? It’s actually quite simple if you look at the exit polls. The final question there was the key to the entire recall election. When asked “Do you think recall elections are appropriate” some 60% of Wisconsin voters said “Only for official misconduct” and another 10% said “never”. And despite the allegations of Walker’s shadowy dealings, the 60% who said that policy wasn’t a reason to recall Walker voted 68-31% for Walker.
That was your ball game, right there. Scott Walker’s $30 million plus convinced voters that a recall over policy and allegations alone was unusual (it was) and unprecedented (also true given only 2 other sitting governors being recalled) and harmful to the democratic process (something I’d have to agree with). Walker’s massive cash advantage painted the recall process itself as the bad guy here, not Barrett and certainly not Walker himself. All but one of the down-ticket Republicans survived their recall as a result. Some 18% of folks who favor Barack Obama in November voted not for Scott Walker, but signified that the bar of recalling Walker had simply not been met.
Anyone who tells you this has to do with unions, President Obama, the economy, jobs, Mitt Romney, same-sex marriage, the transit of Venus or the season finale of Mad Men is full of crap. This recall election was about precisely one thing — the recall election itself — and it lost pretty resoundingly. That’s it. That’s the entire election. Republicans spent a huge amount of cash convincing people to vote Walker as a protest against being able to exercise their rights to vote to be able to remove a sitting politician. They used tens of millions to define the election on terms favorable to Walker and the GOP, and it worked as intended as
all nearly all incumbent Republicans survived.
I’m very surprised that the number of people who voted for Walker in that 60% of people who said a recall was only appropriate for official misconduct was roughly two-thirds. it should have been 80%+. Walker would have won by 15-20 points, except massive turnout in Democratic areas of the state limited the margin to just 7 points. And even then, a significant percentage of Democrats voted not for Walker, but against the recall process. Barrett didn’t have a chance in hell with $30 million in ads going “You don’t want to be responsible for such an awful precedent on recalls, do you?” even with the better than 2008 turnout. As mistermix said, it was a heavy lift in the first place and the Dems get credit for making it as close as it was.
End of story.
Correction: looks like the Democrats took the Senate. Racine seems to have recalled their senator, by about 700 votes.
Dems get credit for making it as close as it was.
State Dems get credit for making it as close as it was.
Oh. Well then. That is good news, I conked out about 11 PM and didn’t see anything about the Racine Senate vote.
Walker stuff still stands, however.
Remember one thing this election did do, beyond losing the battle (Walker) but winning the war (flipping WI Senate to Dem majority) is highlight the Citizens United debacle that the Supremes decided was a good idea for Republican Americans.
Don’t think this was lost on even most casual observers. How that perception evolves between now and November is critical. Right, DNC? Right? Oh… they
can’twon’t hear me.
Actually, I have a hard time seeing this as a bitter loss if the Senate switches to Dem hands. This guy was dangerous with both houses in his pocket and, without them, he’s neutered.
Stuck in the Funhouse
Yup, pretty much this, Zandar. In a nutter shell.
It’s already started……
Obama’s team, which has been on the ground organizing but hasn’t spent money on advertising for months, signaled this week that it believed the state had grown more competitive. In May, campaign manager Jim Messina had said Wisconsin was trending toward the president. By Monday, he was listing Wisconsin as “undecided.”
There’s no doubt now that Obama will defend his turf. Not that he has much of a choice.
Late for dinner
The recall didn’t take down the main target but it did allow for a change in the WI Senate. Democrats now have a 17-16 lead by winning one of the four Senate recalls on the ballot. That may be a more important win down the road to block Walker from any other mischief.
So I don’t see the recall as a total loss (even though the media is portraying it that way).
John M. Burt
Walker keeping his seat will make the trial more interesting.
There’s a pretty good chance he’ll be indicted. Will those who said recalls should only happen in case of misconduct, especially Republicans, then put up? I’m not holding my breath.
What I find disheartening is that of the 60% of WI voters yesterday who said in exit polling that the only proper grounds for a recall is “misconduct”, 68% voted for Walker. Forget the ongoing investigations (presumably some of those voters would be OK if the results drove him from office eventually) but why does that ~40% of all voters (& there is no reason to suspect the results would be any different most anywhere else) not consider lying through one’s teeth to get elected & then ramming through one’s hidden agenda “misconduct”? Because they agreed with the agenda & didn’t give a rat’s arse how he got into the position to implement it? Sad.
ETA: “me” beat me to it in many fewer words, kudos.
Funny how when the governor’s name was Grey Davis the GOP line was a recall vote was a stand for democracy and against tyranny (sigh)
A brave attempt at spin.
If you’d been paying attention, that $30 million didn’t say word one about the recall being the bad guy. It clearly said unions, Democrats, and Tom Barrett were Satan and they won.
The DNC and Obama let Wisconsin go. Why the hell should they vote for him in November when he abandoned unions and Democrats now?
We are screwed beyond belief right now and you’re taking about recall election itself being the bad guy?
You’re even more of a stupid moron than I suspected. Can we get some analysis from somebody with a higher than room temperature IQ please?
Derrrrrp derrrrrrp. Voters will have reasons for voting against you when you run a piss poor campaign and let yourself get outspent by 30 million, deerrrrrp derrrp.
You don’t get credit for that. You get blame because your party has once again sold out working people.
“End of story.
Stuck in the Funhouse
@John M. Burt:
Yea, I forgot, Scott recently graduated from ‘a person of interest’, to a ‘target’ in a corruption investigation. Stay tuned, Part Deux, the Walker soap opera, As the TeaTard Turns.
To the right, it is never misconduct when it is THEIR team doing it. Sure, it is misconduct if the other team does the same exact thing, but when my team does it…. it is..um… MY TEAM, that’s what! Suck it!
For those 18%’ers? Temporary insanity? I don’t get that.
Hmmm. Maybe Progressives should have thought about this ahead of time.
Sorry, just a bit cranky from months of seeing tweet after tweet making this vote into The Most Important Vote Ever and promising victory, not to mention the deluge of emails seeking money. I’m tapped out.
It’s like, if Walker had come out and said: “I hate blacks, hispanics, poor whites and Jews”, he would’ve lost by a landslide. Despite that not constituting some form of executive law breaking.
Why? Because that is politically anathema. Accordingly, the democrats failed to do the same to his far more harmful union busting policies and school cuts.
They got outspent, and shocker: The dems are a party that bust their fair share of unions too. See Obama’s failed education policy.
@John M. Burt:
And no matter what kind of smiley face we try to put on this, it still sucks that Walker is still the governor of Wisconsin. He lied his way into office.
You should’ve seen the hilarious stunts at his friend ABL’s blog, where they started posting weird birther style rumors about Walker.
Now all of a sudden it’s proof of democrats strength that they LOST. LOOOOL
Next, Squealer will tell us all about how they actually pretended to lose, just to win in the end!
It’s telling that this propagandists first post on the subject is happyspin for democrats, instead of the actual IMPACT on the working people of Wisconsin, and nationally.
Everything Spectre has said +1.
Corporate Dems screwed Wisconsin. Obama didn’t lift a finger to stop it. Not a damn finger cause he’s one of them.
America is going to burn for the next decade and by then the Rethugs will have permanent control everywhere. It’s morons like you who enabled them to do it.
There’s the end of your damn story, you ignorant ass.
Stuck in the Funhouse
From the insult to injury files
Barret might want to consider packing it in, the pol career thingy.
Where did all the “pro-union” concern trolls come from?
Copied and pasted from another thread: FWIW, in the cold, hard light of day, I think that the failure of the recall in WI comes down to three things:
1. Dislike of the recall process. Some see it as unfair and think that someone, once elected, is entitled to serve out his term. Others found the process to be too expensive.
2. Guns. There is a sizable faction in Wisconsin who are single issue voters on guns. Probably the most effective adds that were out there were the Sportsmen for Walker signs. It is virtually impossible to convince some of these people that Dems have no interest in taking their guns. Hell, some of them hunt with Dems but still think that their lifelong hunting buddy is the dupe of the Madison liberals who really are going to take the guns this time, just you wait and see well not me they’ll get my gun when they pry it from my ….
3. Liberals, Unions, Madison, and Milwaukee. In rural and northern Wisconsin, there can be a palpable dislike of anything to do with the big cities (sports teams excepted). Farmers can be very anti-union and the anti-liberal campaign of the past 40 years has taken root in many parts of the state.
I think it took a combination of the three factors for Walker to win. This is one reason I am not all that worried about Obama’s chances in the state. Factor 1 will not be in the mix. Factors 2 and 3 are always there and are one explanation of why the GOP wins some statewide and national races in the state.
I agree with you 100% Zandar. As soon as I saw that Exit Poll last night, I thought, all for nothing. Although control of Senate is good.
Republicans spent a huge amount of cash convincing people to vote Walker as a protest against being able to exercise their rights to vote to be able to remove a sitting politician.
I’d only disagree mildly here: I called it mentally for Walker as soon as Wis. Dems decided to renominate Barrett. He lost last time, why would he win this time. Unfortunately, doing so very much played into the notion of ‘rerunning the 2010 election’. I dunno that Falk would have won, but she would at least have been different. (And the choice of Barrett over Falk may very well have effected the union vote.)
So anyways, the D’s ran the same dude that lost last time, turnout went up some and we got… almost exactly the same result. (Barrett lost have a point.)
Strategically, though, Walker is neutered legislatively (just like Obama is). This may not matter before the election, but the D’s are now setup to hold the state Senate. So the odds are good that Walker’s agenda is done until 2014.
Meanwhile, Walker is NOT Romney, and we had some real results indicating that when turnout goes up again in November, Obama will have Wisconsin locked.
The butthurt here for the D’s is all in the shift in the amount of white men without college degrees supporting the R, but I think we can agree that that group has been kind of screwed by the Great Recession, so I don’t think it’s a surprise.
As for the massive spending – well, here they’re running just oodles of commercials for American Crossroads just like they were in August last year and as near as I can tell, they spent a lot of money on a handful of nothing.
So, for my point of view, given that people bombarded with the same ad over and over again, eventually figure out why it’s looney, if the rich white billionaire club wants to spend oodles of boodle telling people they were stupid to vote for the black guy because getting screwed by Romney would be so much more pleasant, I say let ’em.
We just need some better commercials. (Dem commercials are usually just too damn nice. We need to pull ‘Daisy’ out of mothballs, because the R’s deserve it if anyone does.)
[‘Oh, the hissyfits they’ll have.’]
I’ve seen the John Doe stuff and it is interesting but….
will Badgers see this as bad conduct for Walker, or as Dems being mean and inappropriate?
He beat Barrett by more or less the same margin he in 2010. You’re saying this is only because so many Democrats and independents are opposed to the recall process? Looks to me more like the same people voted the same way.
Two data points:
1) This recall election was about recall elections
2) National Dems pretty much stayed out of it.
Maybe these are related. Is it possible that Dems not contesting this as a national issue is related to the GOP’s threats to remove Obama if he’s re-elected? Just sayin’ it’s possible.
I’d be interested in knowing how much sentiment there was that out-of-staters were trying to reverse the results of Walker’s election. I would guess a sizeable amount. To the point where a greater involvement of the national party might actually have lost votes? Quite possibly. Which might explain why the DNC tried to stay out of it until the outcries of the base forced its hand.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
This, seriously that’s head up your backside thinking to do the same thing that failed before and do it again. Jesus on a pogo stick that’s this blog’s main critic of the Republicans. Suck on that concern trolls.
Remember Gray Davis of California? The Republicans only won Davis’ recall, against their own best efforts mind you, because Arnold Schwarzenegger was able run because of the open ballet.
Stuck in the Funhouse
And for the concern trolls, more evidence that Obama is doing very well out there iN the rest of the country, as well as Wisconsin.
And this pol shift of former so called “swing states” to solidly dem ones, is seen across the board. Here in my state of NM, that voted for Bush, the gap toward OBama and dems is even wider. We are now talking about VA and NC being swing states, once GOP strongholds. This is real, whatever the reason, and the widening margins of these former swing states (IN A ROTTEN ECONOMY), suggest it is more than simply the match up of Romney V Obama. And while the numbers don’t yet appear wide enough in places like Ohio, and Florida to move them out of the swing state column, the current Obama leads in those states ought to give the wingnuts a big case of the vapors, for this and coming elections.
Now back to the regularly scheduled. WHERE IS MY OBAMA? HE SOLD US OUT, ALL OVER AGAIN IN WISCONSIN
The way things are going right now I’m pretty sure the voters will save Obama the trouble of having to worry about impeachment.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
Again with Mittens we have perfect example of a self absorb political party in action.
You have an incumbent – Obama who is on shaky ground (mind you nothing like Walker) so who do the Republican’s run? The man who utterly, absolutely, equivocally personifies everything Obama was elected to stop. All because it’s Mitten’s turn. Talk about not paying attention.
Then you’re unaware that exit polls in Wisconsin, polling voters that gave Walker a comfortable win also gave Obama a safe lead over Romney. I don’t think you should be so certain.
@RossInDetroit: Intelligent people question. Stupid people are always certain.
And the exit polls had this a tie too. You’ll excuse me if I put you in the “as dense as Zandar” category.
Obama screwed us. Come November it’s his turn. Then maybe we get somebody liberal.
@Uncle Cosmo: Something like two-thirds of Walker’s money came from out of state, while about a third of Barrett’s did. But Walker did aggressively sell the idea that meddling liberals from outside Wisconsin were trying to take him down.
@Someguy: Four elections–2010, the Supreme Court debacle, the earlier recall of state senators and this–seem to provide evidence that Wisconsin’s voters are deeply entrenched in their positions, at least on state government, and it’s very hard to move them. The national election should play differently.
Well, as usual, folks are blaming Obama because he didn’t show up. The Dems are not going to have any extra money for anything. Obama did 3 fundraisers Mon & he’s doing 4 fundraisers today. He’ll be outspent by Billions of dollars. The DNC nor Obama have extra money.
His appearance there would not convince people a Recall was ok in this case.
Why didn’t Barrett spend his money trying to convince voters that a Recall was just? Why in Hell would you have a Primary one month before the Recall? How do you think that helped your side?
I read that one reason Obama didn’t want to show up was because instead of collective bargaining the issue, everyone was attacking the bad economy & lack of job creation as the issue against Walker. The message Obama was delivering was the economy was improving & we were adding jobs. That’s why Obama stayed as far away as possible. Makes sense to me.
Also, he donated all his paid OFA Staff & Volunteers so it’s not like Obama did nothing. They said they were 1/2 the ground team. You would have lost a lot more if you hadn’t had them.
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
You are your own best parody. You respond to the charge that the democrats have sold out workers in the state by saying: “DON’T WORRY, OBAMA CAME OUT FROM THIS LOOKING GOOD!!”
IT’s simply mind boggling. Almost as mind boggling as Squealer arguing that this loss was a demonstration of STRENGTH by the democrats.
It would all be so very hilarious if not for all the real suffering involved.
Forum Transmitted Disease
I love how the narrative is “Dems lost”. Flipping the Wisconsin Senate is the only victory we needed yesterday, and we got it.
Walker can keep his seat warm until he goes to jail. Fine with me.
Seems a lot of people in WI do not understand the difference between impeachment and recall.
Jesus H. Christ. I live in a town that promotes itself as hippy with a slice of dippy on top. The papers are full of letters & comments blaming fiscal woes on evil unions and evil city employees. If I were in charge, I’d go on strike faster than you can say “suck it, libs” but I’m not. People, even supposed sustainable living, I’m disappointed in Obama, I’m against the next war, I don’t even use honey, liberals, HATE UNIONS. Even people who are in unions are anti-union. I’m looking at you, cops and public maintenance workers. If this was going to work, we needed all hands on deck in Wisconsin agreeing that recalling Walker was a must. People won’t care until their republican representative does shit to them personally. When it’s kicking teachers and other public workers, they can be as liberal as they want and still feel, fuck those guys, they make too much.
Edited to reflect: I’ve also heard enough snippets of rightwing radio to see that this was sold as Democrats attempting to remove Walker over policy disagreements and not a real valid recall. If that’s what your enemies are saying, your job is to make the case that it was valid. Money can’t overcome bad messaging.
I live near but not in Wisconsin, and I hadn’t thought about the “referendum on the referendum” angle before. We can (and will) discuss the post mortems ad infinitum here, but it’s up to the WI state Dems to act on them. Looking forward, hopefully the state senate will remain in Dem hands after November; that should greatly limit the damage Walker can do. I think that’s pretty big in and of itself. Also, we’ll see where the John Doe investigation leads. Maybe Walker will end up doing a Blago, but the wheels of justice turn slowly.
A mess, but not quite as big a mess as it could have been, thanks to Racine. The key now will be maintaining the new status quo in those state senate races going into November.
I don’t buy this spin at all. Weren’t there two ballots, the first one being the yes/no decision on the recall? If that’s how folks really felt, shouldn’t the recall have been shot down in the first round?
I know the real answer is the big money did a brilliant job of framing the issue as they did, and that mere logic would gain no traction against it. Just venting.
Are you really this fucking stupid?
Cat the primary is part of the recall process in Wisconsin’s constitution.
Zandar, as a former pollster, I think you are wrong a hell.
These exit poll results don’t mean a damn thing. Yeah, voters say they are considering three pursuing philosophical questions about the appropriateness of a recall, but ninety percent of them never considered this before. Anyone who had is a political junkie who voted for their preferred candidate.
Walker won because he had the following:
Talk radio shilling for him
An older, whiter voter base from an of cycle election
A GIANT FUCKING PILE OF MONEY
We didn’t lose this because Wisconsin voters are afraid of the precedent, or because of the ground game our the DNC or Bill Clinton. People vote for outcomes, and they will lie to pollsters and themselves about why.
Stuck in the Funhouse
Get away from me with your braindead troll shit, Herr Blowfeld. I will skin you, stick an apple in yer piehole, and barbeque your sorry ass like it was the 4th of July on my personal bonfire of inanity.
Not that you have a plan for this other than knocking down insufficiently pure Democrats, of course. “Maybe” we get somebody liberal. It could happen! Fairy dust is powerful shit!
Meanwhile, the rest of us will be busy trying to make reality work for us as well as possible, thanks. Even though it’s all compromised and imperfect and doesn’t make us feel good all the time about how much better we are than all the sellouts.
But they can and do get away with this two-facedness with ease. Our media sucks, and so does our Citizens United politics.
Things will apparently have to get worse before they get better. But can the US survive the worse part with the shreds of democracy intact?
@Mike S.: Only about 540000 signatures were needed to put the recall into motion. Over 900000 verified signatures were submitted. More than a million voted against Walker. Different standards.
You have to admit it rivals the spin expertise of Republicans
“Obama screwed us. Come November it’s his turn. Then maybe we get somebody liberal”
This is by far the most ignorant comment I have seen on Teh Intertubez in a long while.
@Brian R.: I pied Knockabout some time ago, so I don’t know what he’s saying. Did he really say this? Holy crap. Somebody tell that poor slob that Gus Hall is still dead.
Stuck in the Funhouse
Why don’t you and your spoof concern troll buddy, go play in traffic somehweres.
@Karl: I agree here. If the recall process itself was what they were voting against, the Dems wouldn’t have taken over the Wisconsin Senate *through the recall process*. I’m sure glad they took the senate though. Next best thing and ensures that Scott Walker can’t just ram his union-busting agenda through. Scott Walker will have a nice taste of what Obama is going through with a Republican House and Dem Senate. Wisconsin just voted for political paralysis.
Via the LA Times, this 2009 recap of the Davis recall. Note how the GOP was moved into action by that darling Rep Darrell Issa (R-Vista).
Such total IOKIYAR. Arghh.
@Omnes Omnibus: How was your lunch date?
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
lol. So you think the spin is inept?
I’ll tell him about Gus Hall right after I break the news to him that there actually was a slight difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush, and that his brave protest vote for Saint Nader didn’t lead to the triumphant presidential election of Dennis Kucinich in 2004 like he hoped.
Christ, what a fucking moron.
The stock market seems to like the Wisconsin results, so another silver lining in the cloud to cheer everyone up.
Also tell him we have a bunch of Bob Shrums on the National helping to bring another
The election results from Wisconsin depress me.
I’ve enjoyed reading the comments in this thread, along with the arguments, but think one factor hasn’t been discussed thoroughly:
Do you think that money made a difference? Turnout was terrific so obviously GOTV was effective. I think the message was clear. The big difference seems to be money spent on advertising.
It doesn’t matter how much money the Dems cough up, with “unlimited corporate cash” the Reps can accumulate more. Does it matter? Can an election be bought?
[and we should no longer believe CNN exit polls]
Oh OK I didn’t know that. I just thought that having a candidate ready to go would have been helpful. It’s hard to recover from a primary that quickly and regroup.
@schrodinger’s cat: Fine. It was actually just coffee. Also too, it was far less painful than reading some of the idiots on this thread. I don’t know why anyone who has ever been in the state bothers to comment; the instant experts know better anyway.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
I’ll bet my right foot and my left asscheek that those 17% of supposed Dems and Obama voters who voted ‘For Walker’ and ‘Against the Recall’ won’t actually vote for Obama come November. If those twits can actually stomach Walker that much, I can’t imagine less than half going wobbly at the ‘both sides same thing, so give the new guy a chance’ bullshit I keep seeing formerly stalwart Democratic friends fall under
It just feels like the last year or so has simply been the GOP punching the Dems in the face, screaming, “WE WIN FOREVER, FUCKERS, NOW DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!” and the country standing around in a circle, cheering deliriously for ti.
Edit: Goddammit brain, type right, don’t say the exact opposite of what I’m trying to say.
And Obama isn’t a center right moderate Republican? Wake the hell up people. If the country has to burn before you understand the so be it.
@Omnes, thanks. I must have confused the primary with a referendum. Nevermind!
Stuck in the Funhouse
I didn’t spin anything, providing hard polling data for my assertions. I pretty much called the end result days ago for WI, and the spin is morons like you and Blowfeld trying to turn WI into Obamafail. version 5,234. You are an idiot. Spin that. LOL
@Knockabout: Always easy to spill other people’s blood when you know Mom won’t kick you out and will continue to fund your Jeno’s pizza rolls and Little Debbie cakes. Bring on the revolution! Knockaindoors is 100 percent behind you from his perch in the ass-shaped dent on the couch!
Obama and the democrats have:
– refused to back card check, which could’ve strengthened Unions pre- walker, and nipped this in the bud.
– Continued to bust unions through a disastrous education deform policy.
– Continued to lay off public sector workers.
Obama refused to campaign for the recall early on, before the primary, right at the height of the anti-walker momentum
Daley was going around telling people to back off this struggle.
Democratic politicians talked the unions out of striking, with the empty promise of a recall (that turned out to be a mugging).
Democratic politicians backed a guy that already lost to Walker, instead of labor’s preferred candidate.
The Democratic party hung the struggle out to try, getting outspent by 30 MILLION.
Democratic operatives are now trying to spin this defeat for labor, as a victory for the party and Obama, who somehow was “leading from behind”.
I get that a lot of you still like democrats as the lesser of two evils, I really do. But on some level you actually have to care for the people involved, and their legitimate grievances against the sellouts that have led them astray.
Is is your formula, Knockabout?
“Obama screwed us + come November it’s his turn =
maybe we get somebody liberal.”
Yeah, to try and deal with the smoking wreck that is Mitt’s Amercia (c). Great. Thanks.
The 2004 campaign brought out the Swiftboat lies which were effective primarily because Kerry’s Team took so long to respond, but specifically because the response was limp-wristed.
Americans, in any state, want decisive, strong Leaders. They despise the appearance of weakness. Getting mean is not perceived as mean, but strong. They don’t get as concerned about a bad decision(outcome), as they do about a weak, reflective, tender-hearted process that leads to a makeshift accomodation to satisfy all the parties involved.
Obama better have the chops to bring it like he did with Bin Laden over the next few ;months, and that includes taking risks with the ‘muddle’. They respect it, even if they lie in poll interviews about negative politics.
@Knockabout: Destroying the village to save it has a long and illustrious history of not working.
Mike Flannigan weighs in in his usually merciless way the Wisconsin Recall election in “Wisconsin Brain Death Trip.”
Davis X. Machina
@Felanius Kootea: For lot of people the state government is the governor. The legislature is just noise. So a recall of the first may seem heavy-handed, un-democratic, whatever, while the recall of a legislator is just yawn….
@Linda Featheringill: Well since we don’t have a Governor Meg Whitman in California, or a Senator Carly Fiorina, and we’ve never had a President Steve Forbes, I’d say it’s not as easy to buy elections as it may seem. Money goes a long way, definitely, but it isn’t everything. I think Barrett wasn’t the right candidate for the job in the minds of voters, period. Cheer up – Wisconsin Dems won the Senate, which means Scott Walker is going to have to compromise or be stuck doing nothing. That isn’t a trivial thing.
What does “caring for the people involved” constitute if not donating and volunteering for the recall effort (which a lot of people here have done)?
I don’t think yelling that the DNC or somebody should have come up with $30 million more to drop into this race proves that someone cares more. THEY HAVE A LOT MORE MONEY THAN WE DO. They have a lot more money than we do because three decades of policy — largely Republican but yes, more Democratic than we’d like — have concentrated wealth at the top and the people at the top want to keep their boots on our necks and are willing to spend money electing guys like Walker to further that goal. We can’t make the kind of money they have just materialize.
Oh, and the people involved aren’t Knockabout and his couch-warrior ilk, who can just DIAF.
But tonight I say, we must move forward, not backward, upward not forward,
and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.
“Daley was going around telling people to back off this struggle.”
Looks awfully like he was right, doesn’t it?
Davis X. Machina
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Some of them certainly will. We had something like one in four Obama voters also vote for Susan Collins for Senate in 2008.
@cat48: Control of Senate means that it was NOT all for nothing. In fact it helped achieve the major point of recall, in that it now makes Walker unable to push anymore of his thefts through the legislative process.
Ignore the blather coming from the media , who would have you believe that this was a disaster for the dems and that it means the end of the world . By Nov. this will just be another totally forgotten bump in the road.
Proud progressives sat out the 2010 Election to punish Obama so we got a bunch of Wingnut Governors & a Wingnut Bircher/Teaparty House & a few Senators.
If they set out this one, Right to Work for all States as Romney has endorsed this & Deminted already has the Bill ready PLUS the Ryan Budget.
That’s exactly what an Obama cultist would say. This time, it will be different, because Dennis Kucinich!
I’m with grandpa john @86.
I think the news that the Dems took the state senate back is getting way too little attention. As Joe B. would say, this is a big fucking deal. While there’s lots of mischief Walker can do on his own, now that the senate is controlled by Democrats the real bleeding can be stopped.
I’m wondering if at least some voters didn’t conclude that giving the GOP complete control over state government was a complete failure, and voted for recall in spite of their reluctance.
And if, as seems at least possible, Walker is indicted his whole edifice may come crashing down. So we’ve got that going for us…
Hear, hear. Control of the Senate means WI won’t become a right-to-work state. That makes a difference in the real lives of workers in Wisconsin.
I agree with that. I think that’s wonderful that Walker can be obstructed now.
I didn’t mean to say there shouldn’t be a recall. It’s the insistence that Obama should have spent huge money and visits on it that I disagree with. Frankly, his PAC is a joke. The Dems just don’t have a lot of money. Obama is spending huge money on infrastructure in swing states. He’s out spent now.
Maybe you’re right. Perhaps it isn’t an open-and-shut case of the big bucks win.
That would be good.
Recall Walker petition 1,000,000
They must have gotten the signatures of just about everybody who wanted to recall Walker. And Barrett got their votes.
Then you, as President, must inspire those proud progressives, sir.
That’s what Commander-in-Chief means
@gbear: “He lied his way into office.”
unfortunately, I think you could get over 70% of voters to say that this is what politicians do.
Just don’t ask them if their favorite politician is like all the others.
Congress: 95%+ incumbent re-election rate.
11% national approval rating. Cognitive dissonance, we’re soaking in it.
@Corner Stone: The meme that never dies.
Again, let’s be charitable and say the Republicans are 5 times richer and more powerful than the democrats (absurd but let’s pretend).
Your party still get outraised and outspent by more than that margin. That’s an intentional lack of effort.
The only high powered support sent in, is the current biggest enforcer of corporatism orthodoxy,Mr. Third way himself- Bill “Romney has a sterling record” Clinton.
Your party hierarchy backed a guy who not only lost, but pushed his own form of austerity as an “alternative” and purposely alienated himself from the workers after he won the primary.
And now operatives like Squealer are going around trying to spin this as a victory! Pathetic, and dangerous. This is a betrayal that should be a wakeup call to many of the workers.
You’re raining on some outrage parades by mentioning that
@Ben Franklin: Always strikes me as weird that people who complain the loudest about the common folk not having a voice (and they mostly don’t) subscribe to a strictly hierarchical notion of political leadership.
Stuck in the Funhouse
Along with unspoken, but sometimes spoken, secret admiration for GWB, and the ‘decider’ bullshit. Progressives were against Unitary Executive, before they were for it. go figure.
@Spectre: So your thesis is that the Dems really hate workers, are tanking on purpose, and we need to make them pay by … doing WHAT, exactly?
@Spectre: I don’t know, buddy. Sounds like there’s an “intentional lack of effort” on the part of the “workers.” Otherwise, they would have “outraised and outspent” everyone and ridden their gleaming ponies to victory, right?
@Spectre: Let me know when the worker’s party starts getting organized and has a viable chance. Until then I don’t see much point to your ranting.
@Stuck in the Funhouse:
It’s also surprising how many 1960s liberals loved the whole idea of a ‘strong president’, a la FDR. Then Vietnam and Watergate happened.
The democrats needed to win more than one seat in order to avoid the Republicans retaining/retaking control in the November election, which they are expected to do (especially now).
They won’t even be in session until then! There was no victory.
I think that instead of putting their faith in these sellouts, the unions should’ve gone ahead with their first instincts and unleashed the strikes.
This is a key lesson. Don’t let the democrats walk you into a slaughterhouse the next time this happens.
@Spectre: Wait, the results of the November election are already decided? I guess we should all stay home then!
….nah, won’t give you the satisfaction.
They’re not, but there is such a thing as political reality. In order to stop the high likelyhood of republican control, the dems probably needed 3 pickups. Instead, they failed to do that, and suffered a massive defeat more likely to embolden republican power in that state, and nationally.
The senate seat gain will literally have 0 positive effect. This was not a victory.
POTUS is not a figurehead, yet. Republicans seem to be headed that preferential path, because they just need him to sign legislation.
CIC is not passe and the PEOPLE listen for direction and guidance the same way they listened to FDR on the radioi. He is supposed to be their voice.
@Spectre: OK, this is a reply I can work with. I do think that you are way, way overestimating the separation between “the unions” and “the Democrats”, and underestimating the ability of the unions to make their own decisions on tactics rather than just being led around by politicians. I don’t think the unions surrendered their agency to the politicians — I think they made a decision. Maybe the unions made a mistake. But if so, they have some responsibility for that as well, not just the Great Democratic Satan.
I think your post is pretty revealing of the mindset held by many democrats. It can’t possibly be that your party in anyway wronged these people (while you conveniently ignored the evidence piled up).
Instead, it must be that those ungrateful workers (that I thought your party claimed to care about), didn’t properly subordinate themselves to the marching orders of the benevolent corporate millionaires that run your part.
Sounds like how the Stalinists used to spin the failures of the enlightened “vanguard”.
@Davis X. Machina:
There seems to be some incredulity that 17% of yesterday’s voters can make Walker and Obama fit into their brains as both yes votes.
But as Davis points out, this sort of thing isn’t uncommon (though the percentage here seems high). Ticket splitting is easier if you’re an independent.
Yes independents tend to lean and tend to have more party ideology/tribalism than they’ll cop to, but they are also easy ticket-splitters.
I don’t buy the crap that we’re a center-right nation. But I do think we’re largely a center/moderate nation. The GOP has lurched far right, and the Dems have been painted as far-left (and sometimes held a brush).
The guy/gal who sees themselves as a moderate might accept the “recall is for malfeasance” argument and also plan to vote for Obama. There’s a well known incumbency bias, y’know.
You sure are desperate to spin this as a total Republican victory even though the state senate swung to the Democrats.
It’s so fascinating how many trolls come here claiming to be “leftier than thou” while spouting right-wing talking points. Just a co-inkydink, I guess.
I definitely blame the union hierarchy as well. The thing is though, that the union bosses ARE inseparable from the Democrats. They are almost all enablers, sellouts, or straight up democratic operatives.
It’s not a particularly unique problem in Wisconsin. It’s unfortunately the case everywhere.
Likewise, I make a separation between true believer democrats that honestly wanted to help workers out in the recall campaign, and the party leaders. In both cases, it’s the leadership that’s making the damaging moves.
Let’s see — unions have enormous power in strikes that can shut the whole world down, Dems are wusses, this was a massive defeat for Dems and can lead to GOP victory in November, ignore that state senate pickup because it means nothing…
Nope, I’ve never heard sentiments like these from Republicans, including from GOP ratfucker operatives. Ever. Uh-uh.
ETA @ Mnemosyne #114: My sentiments exactly.
The state senate won’t be in session until the next election. An election in which it is almost certain the Republicans will retake control, especially after yesterday.
That’s not spin, it’s just fact. Just like pointing out failures in foreign policy doesn’t make one an enemy of the state. See how that works? That’s how that works.
Your “with us or against us” crap is the real republican talking point.
Corporate millionaires gave $40 million to Scott Walker. So your complaint is that corporate millionaires didn’t have enough influence on the election and if Democratic millionaires had only spent more, workers would have voted for the Democrat?
I’m hearing no legislation of any kind will occur until after November.
If that is true, how does taking the Senate matter if they are booted out by Super Pac money?
And it’s “almost certain” that Republicans will retake control because … why, exactly?
And of course, as if irony’s corpse hasn’t been abused enough, the Walker administration is looking into privatizing public lands that are currently accessible for hunting. So Sportsmen for Walker are even more goddamn stupid than your point 2 would indicate. I blame Obama.
I’m saying that there’s a reason your corporate millionaires didn’t step up, and that it was foolish for workers to trust your party to deliver.
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Exactly, but you don’t really expect the media idiots to understand the long game do you?
no edit for me. did not see Spectre’s comment.
Good God, I do not want you on my team.
Let me Google that for you.
Because the contested seats will be in areas freshly redistricted by Walker and the republicans, and polling data indicts that their Gerrymandering did the trick.
Nope, I’ve never heard sentiments like these from Republicans, including from GOP ratfucker operatives. Ever. Uh-uh.
I can see from your perspective you are to the Right of myself. So take your Posse and gtfoot.
Ah, so if only Democratic corporate millionaires had stepped in and spent more, then Walker would have been recalled and all would have been well. Because nothing ever goes wrong when the “right” corporate millionaires buy elections.
And your links proving your assertions are …
@mds: People will blame the liberals at the DNR. Gun nuts are nuts.
Yes. When you get outspent, you lose. I’m glad we can agree. You’re barely coherent at this point.
@Spectre: So there is no room in your analysis for the possibility that the unions looked at the uncertain (to say the least!) results of a strike, weighed them against the certain hardship to their members in already hard times, and decided that their odds were better with a recall?
Again, maybe that was a correct analysis and maybe it wasn’t, but you seem to think that the decision can’t possibly have been made honestly or in good faith. That the Democrats/union leaders only lost because they threw the game.
Because all those people who didn’t like the idea of a gubernatorial recall are going to vote out their Democratic state senators in a regular election?
Meanwhile, even temporary control of the senate isn’t actually pointless. You think there’s zero chance that if he still had control, that puffed-up high-flying little shit Walker wouldn’t call a special session to ram through anything he might have missed on his “Fuck Wisconsin and Give it Away to the Koch Brothers” list? Last night, one of his henchmen was certainly blathering about all the monstrous shit that still needs to be inflicted on the state. Why wait on the vagaries of November, and an electorate likelier to be voting a “D” ticket? For that matter, why wait on a grand jury? It’s not like Dale Schultz had a problem with most of Walker’s agenda.
You should really learn what you’re talking about before instinctively defending your party.
Walker has redistricted the seats up for grabs in November, and the Senate won’t even be in session until then.
Not really, the Senate is out of session until November when Democrats have to defend an open GOP-leaning seat, two more competitive seats in Green Bay and Kenosha and the two freshman who won recalls last year.
There are now GOP seats in play, but there are five Dem seats including one GOP will almost certainly win.
The seats up in 2012 are the ones that faced the recall last summer.
Wonder why Californians didn’t feel the same about recall elections.
And the senators who are elected in November will be sworn in when, exactly?
From the Journal-Sentinel article:
Wasn’t there some kind of news about Van Wanggaard after last night’s election? Nah, couldn’t be, since you’re telling me that his VICTORY in November is inevitable.
Presumably January. Why do you ask?
January, when the Senate goes back into Session.
From the Salon article, which was written before the election:
Yep, clearly Republican victory in November is inevitable and Democrats should just give up now.
Like I said, funny how your message from the “left” turns out to be identical to the one right-wing trolls like Taco are promulgating.
Well, as a Californian, I find the idea that Wis voters think recalls are uncivil unless “for cause” to be bullshit. The Repubs out here had no problem with ginning up the recall of a Democratic governor for no good reason at all except that they didn’t like him–and stuck us with a former action-movie actor. So to me, it’s more the old Repub double standard: OK when we do it, but bad when Dems do it.
The democrats did not win 2 to 3 seats. Hence why the gerrymandered districts will help republicans retake control.
English, do you speak it?
Huh, wasn’t it right here in this thread that someone correctly pointed out that holding the Senate prevents Walker from calling a special session to ram through more shit?
It’s almost like some people keep screeching the same things over and over, impervious to any facts offered to them in response.
And if we’d picked up three, you’d be declaring the magic number is six. You know, when you do absolutely nothing to win elections, and all your words and actions have the certain result of losing elections, people begin to suspect that winning elections is not actually your desired end.
@Ben Franklin: I didn’t say the president was only a figurehead. I said I reject your adopting a strictly hierarchical view of political leadership when it’s convenient for you.
So the current legislature goes back into session in November, but the new senators aren’t sworn in until January.
Most people would see that as giving Democrats the opportunity to block Walker’s legislation in that lame duck session, but in your wisdom you have shared with all of us that those months between November and January don’t actually exist, so therefore Democrats don’t really have control of the state senate. Thanks for sharing.
Also who said anything about giving up? What a blatant little propagandist you are.
It’s not that “we should just give up”. It’s about “let’s be real, we didn’t win enough seats to stop their rigged districts from swaying the balance in November”.
You can try all you’d like though. I’d love it if we kept trying to do things in places like Texas, but I realize that’s not going to happen any time soon.
Again, your “with us or against us” talking about has been cliche since ’03. You fool no one.
@OzoneR: Out of curiosity, is it typical for Wisconsin’s Senate to be out of session from now until November, or was this gamesmanship in the event the recall didn’t go as the GOP hoped?
Yes, Republican VICTORY in November is inevitable. I don’t know why we don’t all have your far-left wisdom to see that Republicans always win, so there’s no point in opposing them.
@Spectre: Your reality filter scores again. The entire point of my comment was that you are not operating rationally if you think that people share your view in sufficient numbers to prevail electorally. It’s magical thinking, made worse by the fact that you clearly do absolutely nothing to organize workers politically.
You’re the one saying in June that it’s inevitable that the Republicans will take back the state senate in November. So your advice is that Democrats fight really, really hard even though they will automatically lose in November?
Someone here is pushing propaganda, but it ain’t me.
Sweety, the legislature isn’t back in session until January.
You’re in a hole. Stop digging, or at least stop hitting yourself in the face with the shovel.
Is this the part of the discussion where you just continually throw your own feces?
Sure. I think if someone gets shot in the head, that it’s almost certain they will die. That doesn’t mean the doctor shouldn’t at least try to save him.
Likewise your argument is: “Guys this is a great victory, because we’re going to win districts that Scott Walker personally gerrymandered in favor of republican candidates”.
Good luck with that one. Your party betrayed workers, and organized a catastrophic defeat for progressives and working class people.
@mds: Wisconsin’s public lands are awesome, so I hope to hell he doesn’t succeed, but I’d really like to see him made a good, well-publicized try at it and shove that effort down his rifleman supporters’ throats.
Rob in Buffalo
Walker is “neutered” because the Dems hold a one seat edge in the Senate, with another Senate election coming up in 4 months? OK. Even in the interim, do we know that all 17 Dems in the Senate will oppose walker’s agenda?
@Rob in Buffalo: They all left the state rather than let Walker vote on legislation last year. Not to mention a Republican turned on a vote for a crucial portion of Walker’s Kochsucking agenda. So yes, they are a united caucus. For once.
it’s generally not atypical for a state legislature. New York legislature is out of session from July through January. New Hampshire only meets once a month I think.
@Rob in Buffalo:
it doesn’t matter, nothing is happening until after the next election anyway
@OzoneR: I know state’s are often out of session for quite some time. In this particular case, it seems odd though for its length and the timing (I’d think you go out of session later in the year due weather, holidays, etc. etc.)
That’s great, but useless if said legislation gets through in January.
When it comes to big issues, i.e. the state budget, winning the Senate now is completely irrelevant.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
“While there’s lots of mischief Walker can do on his own, now that the senate is controlled by Democrats the real bleeding can be stopped.”
Also makes it more likely Walker will be focused on getting on the 2016 Pres. election ticket, ‘cos if he’s gonna be a lame duck. If 18% of the vote was Dem but anti-recall, then he doesn’t have much chance of reelection in 2014.
Expect more social conservative dog whistle proposals from Walker.
@OzoneR: ever hear of special called sessions, which the governor could do if he had a senate majority.
@OzoneR: As has already been mentioned above, the special session option now no longer exists for Walker; it did before.
Rob in Buffalo
OK I see now. So whether Walker is in fact neutered depends on the November elections, when half the chamber has to run, including at least one of the new Dems elected in the 2011 recalls.
Ah, so Republican VICTORY is inevitable, but Democrats should burn $40 million in Wisconsin just to make you feel better. Gotcha.
My argument is that there was a huge grassroots effort in Wisconsin that came very close to recalling their governor, a feat that has never happened before in Wisconsin and has only happened three previous times in the entire United States. Why this grassroots effort is now supposed to slink home in defeat and stay home in November because they lost this particular battle is beyond me, but it seems to make sense in your tiny brain.
You mean like when you rant about how the Democrats “betrayed” the working class by not having millionaires spend $40 million to buy the election?
You mean like when you rant about how the Democrats “betrayed” the working class by not having millionaires spend $40 million to buy the election?
Xactly. Force must be met with greater force.
Shut. The. Fuck. Up. You’re an obnoxious turd.
Shook loose $30 Million in trickle down too.
The Original Raven
And when Scott Walker starts firing state employees by the hundreds, and cutting the salary and benefits of the rest down to next to nothing, will it still not be about unions? When he turns Wisconsin into a right to scab state, will it still not be about unions?
Circle, circle, circle…
Well, it’s beginning to look like he’s going to have to spend huge money on it anyway, or write it off completely and hope he make up the electoral votes elsewhere. So I guess it comes down to whether or not you think the money would have been more effectively spent to blunt Republican momentum at the outset and secure union support, or in a desperate holding action to try and keep Wisconsin at least nominally blue. I personally would have preferred the former (bear in mind that even if unions across the board don’t believe they were lied to betrayed, they have next to no resources left to do GOTV for Democrats in November. meanwhile the Republicans have set up campaign offices in nearly every country, and the money is still pouring in. That difference is going to have to be made up somewhere, and that is going to cost big bucks), but I suppose an argument could be made for the latter. Keeping your powder dry and all that.
I don’t think that’s what he was saying, I think what he was arguing was that since Walker and the Republicans supposedly gerrymandered all the seats up for grabs this November, all he’ll have to do is wait until January and then he can start right back in with destroying the lives of nurses and teachers, because the Republicans will have total control again. I think he’s got a point here – if the Republicans do retake control of the Wisconsin legislature in November, that gives Walker another full year to do his worst. And that’s assuming he doesn’t get re-elected.