That Steve Almond NYT editorial John wrote about is so dumb that it deserves a little more piling on, IMPBO. This is especially weird:
[T]oo often we serve as willing accomplices to this escalation and to the resulting degradation of our civic discourse. We do this, without even meaning to, by consuming conservative folly as mass entertainment.If this sounds like a harsh assessment, trust me, I’m among the worst offenders. Yes, I’m one of those enlightened masochists who tune in to conservative talk radio when driving alone.
I don’t know any liberals in real life who listen to Rush Limbaugh. Not many of you commenters seem to either. Yes, I (and some of you) check up on the worst offenses on Media Matters, but is that really causing an epidemic of Rush-listening? I don’t think so. I just can’t see how having a few masochistic hippies listen to Rush Limbaugh occasionally makes any difference at all, one way or the other.
I guess the guy’s argument is “I listen to Rush Limbaugh, therefore a lot of other liberals do, and that jacks up his ratings”. But where’s the evidence that a lot of other liberals do?
Criticizing liberals for seizing on Limbaugh’s slut comments is beyond stupid. That’s how we won that debate, it was a step towards increasing the reproductive rights of women. If that’s not “hard work of genuine political action”, then I don’t know what is. When Jah gives you Rush, make RushAid, and liberals did a damn good job of making it that time.
Finally, there’s this:
We have to seek out those on the right willing to engage in genuine dialogue and ignore the rest.
Who the fuck is he talking about? If he thinks Bobo and his other totebag favorites are substantially different from Rush, he’s nothing more than another of the right’s useful idiots himself. The reasonable conservatives come down on the same side of every important issue that Rush does, even if they show more Hayekian humility in arriving at the conclusion. Iraq, austerity, health car, you can go through the list. They may disagree about soda bans, or evolution, or whether we should keep the penny, but I’ll bet you ten thousand dollars, all these reasonable conservatives are happy to have shock troops, whether they admit it or not.
schrodinger's cat
Yes ignoring the swift boat attacks worked so well for Kerry. What an idiot.
Linnaeus
Careful there, DougJ. You’re not being Very Serious in this blog post.
Yutsano
“I never look back darling.”
– Edna Mode
Xenos
I used to listen to Jay Severin in Boston a decade ago. It was not so much of a guilty pleasure as a tonic… there really was no fascistic depth that he would not go to. A bracing example of the pure, sociopathic conservative id. Either he was a pure sociopath or he cynically assumed an army of massholes were. After a while I realized that this was a distinction that made no difference.
His persona, certainly, is central to the staffers and lifers backing Republican ‘moderates’ like Romney and Brown. If you vote republican, these are the completely amoral narcissists you are putting in power.
wonkie
I actually thinkthe “reasonable” conservatives are a quantum jump worse than the unreasonable ones. The so-called reasonable ones provide cover and quasi-plausible rationalizations for the same policies as those supported by the unreasonable ones.
Face it: they are all thugs.
That said I actually do know liberals who routinely listen to wingnut radio. I don’t understand it.
Jewish Steel
I think the Reasonable Republicans he’s searching for all have a (D) after their name.
Carl Nyberg
Why should liberals go looking for dialog with people of “good faith” on the Right?
If they want to have a “good faith” dialog, why aren’t they coming to us?
BTW, what are the principles on which this “good faith” discussion be based?
Honesty? Trust? Respect?
schrodinger's cat
@wonkie:
So true, Bobo is infinitely worse than Limbaugh.
BGinCHI
Almond’s column deserves just one word:
Slacktivism.
Do-nothing liberals who fret about guilty pleasures instead of getting off their asses and trying to make small differences where they can. But instead, write a column, get paid, and then slink away.
Almond has a history of contrarianism that is pretty thin. He eschews having an agent because he’s a maverick, or something. That’s pretty much his claim to fame other than mediocre novels and stories.
zombie rotten mcdonald
The Reasonable Republicans….are Democrats.
Dammit, Jewish Steel!
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Jewish Steel:
Here in Misery we call them Governor Jay Nixon and Senator Claire McCaskill. They are both Reasonable Republicans.
You show me a Reasonable Republican with an (R) after his or her name and I’ll show you somebody about to be primaried out of existence by a Teatard candidate.
taylormattd
Editorals of that kind are so terrible. They feed right into the mentality of these elite media stooges that fancy themselves moderate and above-the-fray.
Piling on these fuckers is totally warranted. This is the kind of shit that encourages the media to remain part of the conservative disinformation machine. It is the reason a full third of the country is both deeply stupid and intractably republican.
JPL
Glenn Hubbard wrote an oped in a German paper criticizing the administration abroad. Raise your hand if you heard about that on tv or the radio.
Now raise your hand if you heard about Hilary Rosen’s comment about Romney’s wife.
Steve Almond is a fruitcake.
Culture of Truth
“You’re bad – I know, because I’m bad like you are!”
as they say in Airplane, christ, what an asshole.
Brachiator
I don’t listen to Rush anymore; there ain’t no point. But he is not the only conservative talk show out there. I’ll listen to a range of other programs, not so much because I care about the hosts, as much as I am curious about the opinions of callers.
Hell, sometimes I’ll even listen to moonbeam conspiracy radio, although this is more out of desperation and insomnia. But once I was somewhat surprised to hear an actual scientist on one of these shows talking about actual real science, because the show is practically the only forum in the country that would give him a long block of time to actually talk about the subject.
If you don’t understand their arguments, desires and fears, you can never even begin to try to change their minds. Worse, you might find that some of your own beliefs and attitudes are not entirely supported. Go figure.
Linda Featheringill
So this guy has lived under a rock for the past several years, right? Or perhaps he is from another planet? As schrodinger’s cat said, Kerry and supporters ignored the swift boat stuff and see how that turned out.
But perhaps the best answer came from Carl Nyberg. If the Republicans want good faith discussions, they can come to us.
Pfooey.
NancyDarling
Years ago, I recall Ted Koppell saying he listened to Rush for the humor???
Keith G
The reality of partisan politics that I have grown up with for many decades is the need for a relentlessly effective counter punch. There is no kumbaya circle where we pass around the talking stick. Added to that is an unfortunate bit of hard wiring from early human history to be more attracted to dynamic and assertive certainty than to calmly expressed logic.
That said, I do wonder if there is a way for Democrats to spend more time forging agreement on a central, muscular message of mission (policy focused) and a little less time playing defense.
Metrosexual Black AbeJ
@Brachiator:
My feeling is that I probably should listen to the winger radio sometimes for the reasons you mention. I can’t make myself do it.
Litlebritdifrnt
I routinely listen to Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingrahm and my local drive time RWNJ host on my local station. “Know thine enemy” and all that.
SatanicPanic
I know a few not-so-bright liberals, but none that are stupid enough to listen to conservative radio.
Jewish Steel
Besides, that’s what TBogg and Rumproast* are for. So I don’t have too, you dig?
ETA: *amongst others
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@schrodinger’s cat:
So true. At least with Limbaugh, you realize that he’s a hyper partisan hack using the current media landscape to his financial and political advantage. Fine, let him live and die in the free market of ideas.
OTOH, Bobo is the poster child for what’s wrong with the ostensibly free press in this country. His danger is far more insidious than Limbaugh’s blowhardedness.
El Tiburon
Steve Almond is a Nut!
His thesis is only correct in that if you write something so god-awful stupid, and you claim to be a liberal, you will get a lot of attention for it.
Look, at this point in time it does almost seem like Media Matters has done their job. To continually point out the shit that is broadcast from Fox, Rush et al is to continually announce the sun will rise.
But I am glad they (and all of the others) continue to keep the pressure on. David Brock is a true American hero, imho. We need more of this and more aggressive tactics as well.
Culture of Truth
I believe Brian Williams said he listens to Rush everyday. That crap will rot your brain.
catpal
that guy thinks it is “reasonable” to listen to Rush-gasbag make Nasty disgusting comments about a young woman, who is speaking out about Reproductive health policy.
He thinks that makes him more enlightening? wth.
Culture of Truth
I would agree, but do people take Bobo seriously? Tom Friedman, maybe.
Ben Cisco
@Culture of Truth: “He ain’t got no sense nohow.”
This Almond fella, he’s nuts.
muddy
@Metrosexual Black AbeJ: I have tried, on occasion, but end up shouting, “You’re a liar! That’s bullshit! How dare you!” etc and then the dog gets upset that I am upset. My BP is in the basement (88/50) and I would like to raise it, but not like that.
I feel like Elmer Fudd when the top of his head blows off.
Yutsano
@Litlebritdifrnt: I got forced into listening to Rush by my youngest brother while driving to my last doctor’s appointment. He actually sounded unhinged. There was no internal consistency or logical thought pattern, just random right-wing tropes. Is that normal or was he really on the Oxy that day?
BTW my brother listens cause he finds Rush hilarious, but in the traffic accident/rubbernecking sense.
El Tiburon
@SatanicPanic:
Yes, but how do you find out about the latest survival gear and seeds to store in your shelter?
muddy
I never heard of this Almond idiot before, and am sorry that I have heard of him now.
schrodinger's cat
@Culture of Truth: He is on NPR, PBS and has a column in the NYT. Apparently he is the liberals’ favorite Republican.
:Headdesk:
SteveM
Pauline Kael never really expressed amazement that Nixon won even though nobody she knew voted for him. However, Almond seems to be saying precisely that about Rush (and, by extension, Fox and Regnery and the whole wingnut media edifice): that they can’t possibly be popular because no one he knows is part of their audience, except as hate-listeners/watchers/readers.
schrodinger's cat
I have not heard Limbaugh, except for clips that make it to the TDS, thanks but no thanks. Others can listen to the obnoxious sputtering gas bag. I need my sanity.
patrick II
I occasionally listen to Rush, Savage, Kudlow, et al. In part just to see what the enemy is saying and curiosity about how effective their propaganda is. I know so many people who have been turned to the dark side by talk radio and Fox. And dark side is appropriate. We all have good and evil in us, and they make a direct appeal to the evil — to fear and hatred mixed in with just enough fact or seeming fact to build a very tight, orderly view of the world. A world where we are each better off with “self reliance”, where there is a natural order co-ruled by the invisible hands of God and Adam Smith that decides whether we are rich or poor, and any consideration of other people is socialism that corrupts the natural order.
And something I think we tend to underestimate — the constant personal mocking of people with different views, and especially powerful democrats. Conservatives don’t just disagree with Obama, or Hillary, or Carter, they think of them with the disdain heaped upon them in the thousands of hours of disparagement they listen to.
It is a tough combination to deal with — a world view combined with disdain for those who might hold any different world view.
It is a long term, well thought out campaign. Steve Almond is an naive child if he just thinks this is going away if he just puts his head under the covers.
Culture of Truth
I actually listened to Rush for a summer in the 1990s, off and on. He was less insane and was catching hell from his fans for supporting Nafta.
Clearly, he’s lost his mind, though he seems normal compared to this Savage character. They’re all on in NYC, though lately the station seems to be mostly hawking nutritional supplements.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@zombie rotten mcdonald: Today’s Democrats are almost all politicians who would have been classified as liberal Republicans (Nelson Rockefeller, Lowell Weicker, Eisenhower) back in the day. I register as a Democrat, and vote for Democrats, but I don’t fool myself that the current strain has much if anything in common with the New Deal or Great Society Dems of the past. Until the economy really crashes or the socialisst workers revolution comes, I make the best of a bad choice—but I haven’t forgotten what a Democrat used to stand for, either.
PeakVT
@Culture of Truth: Bobo wouldn’t have multiple platforms from which to toss his polished turds if somebody didn’t take him seriously. And I think that a lot of less politically involved moderates and liberals take him seriously on account of which organizations give him a platform.
Culture of Truth
Bobo is so bland though. I read him and immediately forgot whatever he said, if anything. That doesn’t happen if you Krauthammer or listen to Rush.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Ben Cisco:
That was funny the first couple of times.
Brachiator
@Metrosexual Black AbeJ:
Perfectly understandable. There are some hosts who absolutely disgust me.
But I’ve had the belief pretty much since junior high school that I could not adequately understand (or demolish) other points of view if I didn’t listen to them. And I suppose many of my friends come to the same view from different directions. A friend of mind would regularly listen to Dr Laura, even though she discounted almost all of her advice.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@El Tiburon:
I don’t need to listen to Rush for that; my RWNJ brother and brother-in-law keep me fully informed on the food supplies, shelters, and weapons required to survive the coming collapse of civilization which will be caused by the radical blacks in power.
I’m so fortunate in my family.
JPL
@Comrade Scrutinizer: That is why I called him a fruitcake.
Doug, You should do a post about Romney’s economic adviser committing treason during a time of war. Maybe Jake Tapper will scan the posts today and mention it. Yeah, I know we liberals gotta be polite but we could at least discuss the piece.
Culture of Truth
I wish there more rational conservatives. Not only are Rush, Hannity etc., extremist and even batshit crazy, but it’s all based on lies. They’re running against these fictional Dems and a hallucination of Obama. It’s maddening.
Quincy
Republicans created an illegal government propaganda office under Reagan to prop up their heinous Latin American wars. Republicans used voter suppression and judicial despotism to steal an election. Since 2010, Republicans’ top priority has been disenfranchising Democratic voters and eliminating unions, Democrats’ top institutional fundraiser/organizer. Republicans have bluntly lied about the motivations for those two latter actions with such appalling success that a majority of the country now appears to believe said disenfranchisement and union busting are necessary. Were all of these things done by “reasonable Republicans” because they were done quietly and without Rush-like obnoxiousness? If so, reasonable Republicans need to be stopped at all costs and by any means necessary. If those weren’t “reasonable Republicans” than who gives a fuck about reasonable Republicans, liberals need to devote their full attention to fighting the fuckers who are in the process of destroying the American Republic.
Jewish Steel
@Brachiator: I don’t disagree with giving good thought to the other side of an argument, being critical of one’s own point of view. But can’t Republicans be understood heuristically? If I get their philosophy and position generally, do I need to listen to examples of it over and over again?
Yutsano
@JPL: That’s actually a big deal. That column was borderline sedition.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@JPL: Fruitcake shows a little creativity. “Nuts” is just too damned obvious to be consistently funny.
Triassic Sands
The only time I’ve ever listened to Rush Limbaugh was on those occasions I was driving cross country and out in the middle of Kansas Rush seemed to be on every station. Even so, my tolerance was very low and I soon preferred silence to Rush’s vile stupidity.
However, I know some lefties who claim to listen to Limbaugh. I can’t understand why anyone would waste their time and for anyone with an ounce of smarts, I’d have to think Limbaugh would cause an unhealthy increase in blood pressure. I guess there is a strain of political masochism that causes some lefties to tune in. It seems like a bad idea to me.
muddy
@Quincy: Sic.
Comrade Dread
I have. I have talked to genuine conservatives who listened to me. Who agreed with me that large corporations and the wealthy were buying our government wholesale.
Who agreed, when I explained to them, that Obama was not a socialist and was a very moderate president who has more in common with Bill Clinton and George HW Bush than Stalin and Hitler.
Who agreed that cutting government spending in the middle of a recession and adding millions of former teachers and other government employees to the unemployment rolls was economically stupid and counterproductive…
Who were outraged by the wage stagnation of the last 30 years on the middle class…
And then promptly told me they were going to vote for the Republican party anyway.
Reasonable Republicans who could be convinced by policy arguments and facts have already left the party. Those still inside are rare and about as well received by the GOP as the ghost of Teddy Roosevelt would be if he showed up at the GOP convention carrying a big stick.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
All joking and snark aside, this Almond guy is a moron. Pure and simple. This is an illustration of what happens when you give a guy with a sub-mental IQ (plus a degree) a column in a major newspaper.
He’s pushing 90. Maybe.
Valdivia
I thought this guy was an idiot when I read about him yesterday but DougJ is right, he needs to be hit like a fucking pinata because $#@$#^()
Brachiator
@Jewish Steel:
Good question. I tend to think that at some level if you don’t take the time to understand why other people think the way they do, you will underestimate them and can end up being very unpleasantly surprised.
Keith G
@schrodinger’s cat:
It may be more of the case that Brooks can be counted on to communicate his views using inoffensive verbal paragraphs without drooling all over the mic. I often disagree with him, but I do appreciate that the conservative voice reaching my ear is not expressing anger or hate – and unfortunately that is rare.
David Hunt
@Metrosexual Black AbeJ:
I hear you. The average time it takes Rush Limbaugh to say something so disgusting that I immediately switch stations is about thirty seconds. I’d say the median time was twenty seconds.
eric
Strikes me that the calling card of a sane republican would be disavowing rush and hate-talk radio in favor of civil discourse. The absence of any systemic criticism of the far right’s hateful rhetoric tells me that there are no sane republicans anymore. Worse, to the extent that one might qualify, say John Danforth, his name no longer appears on the Rolodex because he does not matter anymore. perhaps Brent Scowcroft — remember when everyone thought he would talk sense to W on behalf of poppy bush? This guys will do nothing to impact their own economic interests.
danah gaz (fka gaz)
@Keith G: He mixes in some large words to go along with his meaningless platitudes. It’s plain jane faux intellectualism to make his readers feel like they haz a smart. I won’t begrudge him his success. It works. There’s a lot of morons out there, and apparently most of them read the New York Times.
ETA: I’m not saying Brooks is dumb. He’s not – his readers are. He’s a classic grifter and that takes a modicum of intelligence. Almond is dumb.
JPL
@Yutsano: It is not surprising that the overseas papers are paying more attention to the piece but really, really can’t we have some coverage.
The nytimes now has the story..
Schlemizel
@NancyDarling:
Brian Williams says he listens every day. Your librule media at work!
Back in the day bartcop used to listen to the bloated gas bag every day & dissect the sludge he was spewing. It was honest and complete debunking of the flaming turd. But it was crude and oh so impolite; I’m sure these poor dears couldn’t handle it and little Sully would need extra cushions on his fainting couch.
Valdivia
@JPL:
what did this guy say? for those of us who didn’t read it. I have read him before and thought he was a total hack, but that’s just me being impolite.
Steve
I’m not sure if that’s the guy’s argument or not, but to be clear, Arbitron has no magical power to determine what station your car radio is tuned to. Unless you’re one of the few people voluntarily reporting their listening habits, whether you listen or not has no impact on Rush’s ratings.
Jewish Steel
@Brachiator:
Vide 2000, 2004, 2010. Gottcha.
I was born on 3rd base in the understanding Republicans game; raised by a bunch of them. The face they showed to the world was more Rockefeller, but they all voted Goldwater when asked to do so.
JPL
@Valdivia: Hubbard wrote an oped in a German paper critical of the President’s advice concerning the European economy. The reason he wrote it in a German paper is because of Merkel’s stand on austerity.
edit..If the euro collapses, it will harm the US economy. Of course that’s good news for Romney.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Metrosexual Black AbeJ: Move to Texas. You can hear all of the arguments without having to go near the radio.
eric
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): just go to yahoo comment boards and voila…same arguments …
Soonergrunt
is just fucking impossible.
I’m sure somebody has already noted this, but in case they didn’t, I direct everyone’s attention to what is one of the better summations of the problems with dealing with Conservatives today, and the attendant fawning over ‘bipartizanship’ from our very own host:
jwb
Oddly, Jay Rosen has been pushing this piece on both FB and Twitter. For instance, from Rosen’s FB page:
Keith G
@PeakVT:
As I alluded to above, it may be more of a case of there being a very shallow bench for these platforms to turn to. Once you get past Brooks and Frum who is next? Geo. Will, Huckabee, Gerson, Krauthammer, Noonan, Continetti?
SatanicPanic
@eric: I spend a lot of time there because not only do I get to keep up on their latest stupid talking points, I get to mock them in real time.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Comrade Dread: We all want Republicans who will punish the party for going off of the deep end, either by voting Democrat or not voting. But, other than a few prominent exceptions, they will never do that.
Brachiator
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
I have relatives in Texas, many of whom are conservative, but not Republican. I have rarely heard their views adequately put forth on the radio, or anywhere else. The same is largely true of the liberal relatives as well.
Valdivia
@JPL:
thanks for the summary. Saw a bit written on Bennen’s joint. I loathe Republicans. All of them.
eric
@jwb: how about one name of a liberal that enables Hannity, Rush, or Romney…one name…what is REALLY happening? they are trying to hamstring the Obama campaign in advance so that Obama does not go as hard after Romney as Newt did or as hard as Romney will go after Obama. If Obama goes all out, there will be no race and that just cant happen….worse still, the public might even appear to give Obama the so-called mandate to implement more liberal fiscal policies and they cant have that. They are just playing the refs before the game.
Jewish Steel
@jwb: Rosen? Really?
Villager zombies must’ve got to him. Shame to lose him to the other side.
Yutsano
@Valdivia: The money quote:
Basically he’s politicking for austerity and Willard. “Short term transitional assistance” means eat your austerity and like it, cause it will help my boss win. Fucker.
eric
@SatanicPanic: they are so predictable too….a story that mentions air earth fire or water….anti evolution or climate change deniers….as sure as the sun goes around the earth, these folks are there to spout nonsense.
Valdivia
@Yutsano:
I don’t think there are enough rusty pitchforks to do to this guy what he deserves. ugh.
MattF
Almond doesn’t seem to realize that the problem isn’t inside his head. Introspection is not the way Republicans will get defeated. How can that be hard to understand?
jwb
@Jewish Steel: Rosen does sometime takes what I consider very naive stances, but usually I can chalk those up to the field he is working in and the fact that he’s trying to influence media types as much as anything. With this case, however, I’m genuinely perplexed.
Linda Featheringill
@danah gaz (fka gaz):
Easy on the age thing, okay?
Almond, BTW, is 45 years old, according to wiki.
Yutsano
@Valdivia: BTW there is no English translation for the column yet. So that might limit the reason for no post yet.
Michael57
Go ahead, pile on. This has got to be one of the most misunderstood op-eds ever. How many of you actually read it, instead of relying on the lame synopses here?
What Almond is calling for is an energetic and goal-oriented sixties-style liberalism that isn’t defined by the whack jobs it’s reacting against, but instead by a strong and positive vision for the future. Why is he wrong?
While we’re busy being correct & logical and congratulating each other about it online, the right is stealing and destroying the country. They’ve moved the national conversation so far to the right that they can get away with calling a moderate like Obama a wild-eyed radical. It has been our job to stop them, and we haven’t. Almond is calling us (and himself) out on that. He’s saying we’re too smug, too satisfied with being right, too addicted to childish but entertaining food fights with nutjobs to get much actual work done. He’s saying we feed them every time we react to them.
I guess I’m a troll now, huh. But this is one of the worst examples of group-think I’ve ever seen on Balloon Juice, one of the two blogs I go to every day for news and commentary. And I still maintain that if the NYT hadn’t pasted that stupid and misleading headline onto the article, Cole never would have written about it, and this entire circular firing squad never would have happened.
SatanicPanic
@eric: It’s kind of fun to go to threads where cons will show up but won’t have any sort of prepared talking points, like parenting threads. Boy, do they get pissed when someone calls them out on their bonehead ideas. I admit it, I am a troll.
Ash Can
Steve Almond is full of shit. Bad behavior needs to be called out and challenged. Also, I’m detecting a distinct “both sides do it” vibe to his piece, for which alone he should be kicked to the curb.
@Comrade Dread:
And what’s their answer to the obvious question of “Why?” given all that precedes this? Do they give any kind of explanation that makes any sense, or is it just willful ignorance?
Metrosexual Black AbeJ
@jwb:
The stuff about going on Hannity was fine. I can see why Rosen liked that part.
Valdivia
@Yutsano:
I hope it gets widespread criticism. Then again the Village seems intent in giving Romney a pass. I need a drink.
Heliopause
I don’t read minds so I don’t know exactly, but I’ve been assuming that he’s recommending exactly what Obama did the first 2-1/2 years of his term; make nice with Republicans and eventually pass legislation that Joe Lieberman and Arlen Specter will agree to.
This freakout over Almond’s column has been something to behold the last couple of days, since one of his suggestions, which prompted a “who the fuck” from you, has simply been to replicate Barack Obama’s governing strategy of 2009-mid 2011.
Jewish Steel
@Michael57:
Who here has said this particular aspect of his message is wrong?
You keep implying that no one has read the article, or understood it. I don’t see that at all.
RandyP
I used to listen to Rush. I actually used to laugh occassionally. More often, screaming at the radio had some twisted entertainment value. I turned his show off when I heard him singing a song about how ugly Chelsea Clinton was. “My god”, I thought, “it’s bad enough when other 13-year-olds do that to each other. What can possess an adult to mock a middle-school kid, let alone on national radio?”
So it’s been a few years since I thought of him as entertainment.
Jewish Steel
@Michael57:
My guess was you were Almond’s mom.
taylormattd
@Heliopause: That’s not a bad point.
I would argue, however, that there is actually some value in having the president mouth such platitudes, whereas there is no value in having half-wit moderate-fetish opinonators drone on about the issue.
The goal should be to get the *media* to stop repeating the whole “both sides do it” type of falsehood.
Egg Berry
@Michael57:
I read it, and I still think it’s horseshit. Ignoring these people will not make them go away. Going on Hannity won’t do a damned bit of good, either.
Do you have any idea what “60s-style liberalism” was? A reaction to Vietnam, rampant poverty and segregation by race and sex.
Mnemosyne
@Michael57:
Because energetic and goal-oriented sixties-style liberalism assumed that groups would always be able to bring outside pressure to bear on politicians without liberals actually having to get their hands dirty and become politicians themselves.
Conservatives were smarter — they realized that if you could replace liberal politicians with conservative ones, there would no longer be any public pressure that could be brought on politicians to vote for liberal programs, because they (and their voters) would be able to ignore that pressure.
It has been my opinion for a while now that the biggest failure of the left in the 1960s was abandoning electoral politics on the assumption that outside pressure would always work. Now we’re having to try and re-build those abandoned electoral politics while leftovers from the 1960s squawk that if we just give their 40 years of failed strategy one more try, it’ll totally work this time.
SatanicPanic
@Michael57: I totally disagree. I took your advice and read it and I think DougJ and Cole have it pretty well summed up. This guy gets his facts wrong, engages in magical thinking, has no understanding of human nature and is pointlessly, and without evidence, giving nasty people the benefit of the doubt. His ideas about what we should do are nothing more than platitudes “hey, let’s examine our own views and try to get people to like them!” as if no one on our side ever does that.
Metrosexual Black AbeJ
@Heliopause:
Good point. OTOH, having exactly 60 seats made it the one time in recent political history where it was worth it it to propose stuff even the Burkean moderates would go for. Even then, I’m not sure it was the right strategy overall (I think it was right on HCR, not right on the stimulus).
RandyP
@Michael57: I read it in the dead-tree edition just before turning to the puzzle and a couple of hours before seeing commentary online. My basic reaction wasn’t so virulent, more of a WTF?
samuel
I guess this is the sort of nonsense people write about when they have nothing to write about. “Obama might not win because he’s black”. Gosh, now there is a subject that nobody has thought about writing about before…..LOL!
This goes for both the blogger and the story they are referencing. Get a real job!
JPL
@Valdivia: True.. Treason doesn’t have quite the sex appeal that Rosen’s line about Ann Romney not being a spokes person for working women.
Here is a guardian article link
I remember the good old days when it was awful to criticize a sitting President during a time of war on American soil.
slag
Remember when Bobo blamed liberals for the Bush Administration’s torture agenda? Ahhhh…good times!
The big difference between Limbo and Bobo is that Limbo approves of and even incites the excesses of the radical right while Bobo uses the excesses of the radical right as a bludgeon against liberals.
In that sense, it sounds like the author of this editorial and Bobo have quite a lot in common. Imagine our surprise.
Comrade Dread
Generally, it’s decades of indoctrination in “Government isn’t the answer, government is the problem” and “tax cuts make the economy more productive which benefits everyone.”
Cutting through that kind of cognitive dissonance is difficult.
I can’t really get that angry with them though, because it took me 12 years to work past the political lies I had assimilated into my own beliefs and see them for what they were.
Egg Berry
@JPL: Photo caption:
These people just never go away.
Michael57
@Egg Berry: What it wasn’t was a reaction to whatever segregationists and Birchers were saying during each 24-hour news cycle. Get it now?
Violet
@Culture of Truth:
There exist, but they’re Democrats.
Michael57
@Jewish Steel: Good one, actually.
reflectionephemeral
@Comrade Dread:
Yep, that’s exactly right.
Republican affiliation has been entirely severed from any policy views. Small-government conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and foreign policy conservatives all left the party (or were pushed out, like Bruce Bartlett) in the Bush Jr. era. (We can tell that no one with beliefs is left in the GOP because 75 percent of Republicans– vs. 28 percent of independents– approved of Bush Jr.’s performance as he left office).
With the end of any policy-based rationale for feeling an emotional connection to the Republican Party, we’ve seen a reversion to pure identity politics.
Inertia, resentment, personal enrichment. I don’t think there are any other reasons that anyone votes Republican.
Violet
@Valdivia:
They may be giving him a pass now, but ultimately I think they’ll turn on him. He doesn’t interact with the press well and they don’t like that. Plus he’s not fun. He’s actually a bit weird and creepy. No one wants to have a beer with him, and not just because he wouldn’t be drinking beer. Ultimately the press want to be with the cool kids and Romney ain’t it.
Brachiator
@Violet:
Villagers want to be where ever the power is.
I mentioned before an interesting interview Robert Redford gave to BBC 5 film critic Mark Kermode. When Redford was doing PR work for the movie The Candidate, news about a little event, the Watergate break-in was happening.
The wise, cynical reporters told him that both sides do it, it was no big deal, nothing would come of it, and no serious reporter was really interested in digging into it, not because they were afraid of Nixon, but because he obviously was going to cream McGovern, and nobody wanted to be left on the outside.
The Villagers will never really turn on Romney if it looks like he has a good shot at winning. It’s not like these goobers have principles or anything.
Egg Berry
@Michael57: Yes, they didn’t have the internet and 24-hour news back in the day. Maybe you forgot that. Get it now?
nastybrutishntall
@Brachiator: Yeah, but that takes all of 1 minute, once a year maybe, in the Echo Chamber. Here’s all you need to know:
1) You are NOT inferior because you were born working class or poor, have a low IQ, and/or a poor education
2) This is because you are A) white, B) Christian, and C) American, because
3) America is Awesome, because God made it Awesome though his tireless workers, the Old White Fathers, and through writing The Constitution of The Declaration of Independence of the Bill of Rights through their hands, or at least the important parts, such as the 2nd (the Gun One), and the Other One that Rush likes that has Something To Do With Liberty.
4) America is, and always will be, Awesome, so long as it stays exactly as it was 100-200 years ago. The more we criticize those who want to change America, the more Awesome America becomes. The more Awesome America becomes, the more Awesome we become as Christian White Americans, because this is our country, and suck it.
This never changes.
Comrade Dread
@Violet:
Unfortunately, the timing of this turn probably wouldn’t happen until midway through his second term when they had nothing to lose and started to see him as a lame duck. Sort of like Bush/Cheney didn’t really start getting an adversarial press until 2006, when the writing was on the wall.
And Romney could do a lot of damage between 2013 – 2018 if he is elected.
someofparts
Where are our shock troops?
Or rather, why do the professional democrats keep throwing them overboard?
Aw hell, we all know the answer to that one too, don’t we.
russell
I quit listening to conservative stuff because I got sick of being pissed off all the time. It’s a pointless, frustrating, crazy-making exercise with no upside.
And the more pissed off it makes you, the happier they are. Seriously, f**k that, and f**k them.
I recommend taking nice walks and playing with your kids or your dog instead. Learn a musical instrument, or a foreign language. Plant a garden. Take a nice nap.
The world will be a better place.
Zach
I like to listen to Rush on car trips when I’m in an occasional FM dead zone. I listen until the next commercial and move on, which usually takes somewhere between 15 seconds and 2 minutes.
Heliopause
@taylormattd:
The platitudes don’t enter into it. Lieberman and Specter et al set the limits of the agenda. That’s what happened in the real world, not Platitudeland.
@Metrosexual Black AbeJ:
By 60 you mean Lieberman, an independent who campaigned for McCain, Specter, who was a Republican at the beginning of ’09, Kennedy, who died and was replaced by a Republican, Byrd, who died and was replaced by an asshole Dem, Franken, who wasn’t seated until July 2009, plus assholes Nelson-Landrieu-Lincoln-Pryor-Bayh…but I understand what you’re driving at.
If the Dems were to attempt anything of substance right now (they won’t because of the election and other reasons, but if they were) the limits would be defined by the likes of Brown, Murkowski, Lugar, Alexander, John’s BFF Manchin, and so on. And Obama would do that and you all would praise it. Looking ahead, if Obama is re-elected and wants to accomplish anything in his second term he will be working with the types I just listed and your reaction will not be a hearty “WTF.”
Brachiator
@nastybrutishntall:
I know that this is the Limbaugh/Hannity/Fox News version, but ya know, real people, even conservative people, are less easy to pigeonhole.
And the funny thing is, that dope conservatives have equally reductive views of liberals.
You’re right. This never changes. Too bad.
Deb T
What does IMPBO mean???
nastybrutishntall
@Brachiator: As you know, we are talking about the RW pundits and their message. So I’m not really sure where these wild swings you’re tossing are meant to land. Unless you are Steve Almond, in which case I’d suggest you find a day job quick.
As for the listeners whom you seem to want to defend, they listen because they want to feel superior, which comprises two components: 1) being right about what they believe to be good and true, and 2) being better than Those Other People, a broad category which features a rotating cast of characters. Since #2 is in doubt in the first place, it can be best established by making others appear more obviously inferior. Since life is established as a zero-sum game among survivors, the lower status of others directly increases one’s own worth. This is important, because upward mobility is dead and there’s rarely any other way to get ahead if you’re a dumb shit in the middle of nowhere with an 8th grade reading level and a completely skewed idea of how the rest of the world actually works, except by making others look even shittier and more ignorant than you are.
There. Is that better?
Neldob
Who are the Left’s shock troops? GreenPeace? Do we need a few real Communists?
slag
@Brachiator: I find it hilarious that you’re listening to rightwing radio to get a more nuanced opinion about conservatives. And then claiming the rest of us are the ones with the low opinions of conservatives. If it makes you feel any better, I’ll do conservatives the (probably undeserved) honor of assuming that they’re not well-represented by their media. But will you do the same?
Keith
You ask:
Probably here – a surprising 10% of Limbaugh listeners self-identified as liberal in this Pew Research survey from 2008.
pewresearch.org/assets/publications/1102-1.gif
Why?
Who knows – maybe it is on at work, in the background, unavoidable.
Maybe they want to listen.
Maybe the self-identified liberals are fiercely masochistic.
Brachiator
@nastybrutishntall:
@slag:
Not quite what I said, but let’s take this on for a second. What’s the point of attacking conservative listeners to talk radio? You can assume that they are your implacable enemy, and never try to win them over or understand what they want. Now what? If they get defensive and vote against your interests in sufficient numbers, what are you going to do, besides whine and snark?
And if I recall, John Cole used to be more or less on the other side politically. Are you just hoping for random “come to Jesus” moments by other conservatives? Or was he just your enemy until he wasn’t anymore?
You seem to think that seeking to understand someone’s opinion is the same as accepting it or defending that position. I would suggest that you re-examine your assumptions. It’s really not that difficult a proposition.
You are not making sense here. I don’t have much use for most talk radio hosts. But I am curious about people. I like to hear what they have to say for themselves. I may not agree with it; I may even attack the shit out of it later, but I don’t have this fear that if I listen to conservative talk radio, my ears might explode, or that I might get infected with conservative cooties.
I did not just say that “the rest of you” have low opinions of conservatives. I said, very simply, that often conservatives are under-estimated and that there is sometimes expressed a reductive, stereotyped view of who conservatives are and what they believe.
I don’t believe that “the media” has a responsibility to serve or represent any particular ideology. And talk show hosts like Limbaugh exploit the fears and sensibilities of his audience. That ain’t representation. I don’t think that the few talk show hosts who are liberal stoop to this level of bullshit.
Would you want them to?
Patricia Kayden
Actually, I have friends who watch Faux News so that they “can keep an eye on the enemy”. While I don’t agree with them and cannot stomach Faux News because its stories are full of out and out lies, I respect what my friends are saying.
Someone on the left has to watch Faux News and listen to the Limbaughs and Becks to challenge their lies. Just won’t be me. Kudos to Media Watch and other such entities that do an excellent job of exposing Rightwing lies.
bergman
Say ‘totebagger’ as an insult a few thousand more times. That’ll be effective.
elftx
Stand your Ground might apply in this instance.
J R in WV
I listen to Limbaugh in self-defense, whenever I’m in a car while he’s on the air.
Rush will let liberal listeners know when the right-wing intends to rid the electorate of moderate voters.
That’s when we Democratic voters will need to protect ourselves from the right wing nuts. If you are more educated than average, or drive a foreign car, etc, you need to watch for the warning signs that precede kristallnacht.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Deb T: Is My Penis Bright Orange?