A reader’s query to the Grauniad’s liveblog, and Scott Murray’s answer:
“After the Denmark-Portugal result,” begins Simon McMahon, “a 3-2 win for Holland tonight followed by two 0-0 (or 1-1, 2-2 etc) draws in the final group games would see all three teams finish level on points with identical goals for and against. Maybe a long shot, but it could happen. What do the rules say?”
__
Well, should this happen, it will go down to Uefa’s magnificent national team coefficient ranking system. That would be good news for Germany (No3 in Uefa’s system) and Portugal (No5) but not so good for Holland, or the Dutch, who are No 8, or Po’ Denmark, a lowly No13. These coefficients are calculated by Michel Platini, who pulls the numbers out of the back of his trousers “multiplying each country’s results from two and a half tournament cycles by their respective weighting factor, added up and divided by five (corresponding to the sum of the weighting factors)”. England are No1, incidentally. Platini might actually pull the numbers from the back of his trousers.
5.
pseudonymous in nc
Käsekuchen. The Dutch public don’t expect much, either.
(The cheese counter at Albert Heijn is, um, interesting: you have a dozen different grades of gouda, and that’s about it.)
Oooooo…That volley by Ozil a few minutes back was even more dangerous on the second glance.
9.
handsmile
Right on cue, almost like a vaudeville routine, the notoriously fractious Oranje has descended into recriminations, “Wesley Sneijder slams ‘pathetic egos’ in Holland team”:
While Sneijder calls for team unity, “We have to stop living on little islands,” he is also threatening to “stand up against” disgruntled teammates. Rafael van der Vaart, for instance, is pouting that coach Bert van Marwijk (father-in-law of team captain and reputed Nobel Peace Prize candidate Mark van Bommel) “has has preferences [and] I am not part of them.” (Personally I have no sympathy whatsoever for van der Vaart considering who he goes home to.)
It’s all too sadly predictable, like Lucy and that other kind of football for those of us dazzled by Holland’s potential. If only the squad could visit one of those Amsterdam cafes….
Meanwhile, die Mannschaft waits patiently to put in another shift, dutifully workmanlike but usually effective.
Gods, the colours! It looks like the Irish flag is trying to eat itself.
I guess I’m gonna go with Germany, if only because I’ve been there a few times. And because cheering on Germany whilst in England is always a fun thing to do.
Huh? If you’re in the States, you should just be able to click and watch. If you’re running a pop-up blocker, disable it. If you’re at work, you’re SOL.
30.
lol chikinburd
Answering my own question after looking at the Dutch roster: They’ve got nobody. Might as well throw the dice on a 2-1-5-2 and replace Willems, Heitinge, and one of the useless holders with their whole surplus of attacking midfielders.
Does the German team have anyone with an actual German name other than Schweinsteiger?
Gomez? Khedira? Ozil? Podolski?
These are Germans?
33.
HE Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist
Speaking of Handkaese mit Musik, I’m in Frankfurt today with a bunch of Brits. They will cheer on the Dutch only because they aren’t Germany. I don’t care about football, so it’s all amusingly irrelevant to me.
Hand cheese with music. I could swear I saw Hand Cheese With Music open for Couch Flambeau and Big Black back in the day.
36.
pseudonymous in nc
Well, well, well. You can’t say that the Dutch deserved it, but that was a quality finish.
37.
Amir Khalid
@J. Michael Neal:
I’m pretty sure they’re all German citizens. In the thread for Germany’s first match against the Czech Republic, Randinho and I were talking about how for years Germany didn’t have a player of Turkish ancestry other than Mehmet Scholl (whose dad was ethnic German). Until very recently Germany preferred white European players for the Mannschaft, even those born elsewhere, to Turkish-German players.
“He responded ‘well, I’m sorry your table cloths got ripped off, wadded up and thrown in the back room’ and I took it as mocking,” she said. “We’re the ones he’s wanting to get the votes from, you’d think we would have been treated better.” She says the whole experience left her wondering. “With how he treated me, is that how he’s going to treat others? You know, if he gets in office is he going to be that way to us little people?”
The cafe owner had earlier dealt with Perry and thought he was gracious and sincere.
42.
Amir Khalid
Dirk Kuyt is finally on for Arjen Robben. They should have started Kuyt. That guy works his ass off for any team he’s on, every single time. He always did at Liverpool.
I’m trying to remember how I got around this. It doesn’t even ask me when I want to watch footay. I don’t have cable in my apartment, but I’m pretty sure ESPN3 is on our cable system.
And anyway:
Gomez – German mother, Spanish father
Khedira – German mother, Tunisian father
Ozil – grandparents emigrated from Turkey to Germany.
Podolski – father of German origin and was living in a town that was part of Germany before WW2 (1937). Such people get/got a fast track to German citizenship. Family emigrated to Germany in 1987 when Podolski was 2 years old.
(And anyway Polish sounding names have been around in the Ruhr region since 1900. Roughly 500,000 emigrants did have an effect. So for a German Podolski doesn´t sound “foreign”.)
Following your logic people with hispanic sounding names shouldn´t play for US national teams? Likewise British, French or Dutch national teams shouldn´t include anyone from former colonies?
Why is that normal for every country except Germany?
And you should be a bit careful here. :)
“These are Germans?”
Is there a prominent American politician with an American mother but foreign father around?
So, the Dutch need to beat Portugal and have the Germans beat the Danes, right? That would put Portugal, Denmark and the Netherlands all on 3 points and the Dutch would be guaranteed at least a tie on goal differential at -1.
I guess it depends upon what the tiebreaker after goal differential is.
@Detlef: Jesus fucking christ. Following my logic means that sometimes there are oddities to note in the world and make gentle fun of. Everything beyond that is your own imagination.
48.
catclub
@smintheus: “The cafe owner had earlier dealt with Perry and thought he was gracious and sincere.”
The terms ‘gullible’ and ‘what a maroon’ spring to mind.
Also, the Python sketch on the Piranha brothers in which the line is: “He was a charming and erudite companion, who knew ‘ow to treat a female impersonator.”
49.
Amir Khalid
@smintheus:
That’s terrible. I suspect Mitt was attempting a joke to defuse the tension, and, given his less-than brilliant humor-fu, made the usual complete hash of things. And the cafe owner is right to suspect that a guy who comes off as an entitled dick might well actually be one.
50.
pseudonymous in nc
So, the Germans are through, though they haven’t locked up victory of the group, and need at least a point against Denmark to do so: they’ll know their potential Group A opposition by the time they play, so they may go into that match with an eye on that.
The Dutch aren’t mathematically out of it, but I don’t see enough quality in the side to deliver a miracle.
51.
Amir Khalid
@catclub:
Mind you, that might mean only that as stupid as he is, Rick Perry can at least remember his manners when sealing with the public.
@J. Michael Neal: Sami Khedira was born in Stuttgart, Mesut Ozil was born in Gelsenkirchen (he’s third generation German), Podolski was born in Poland, but his grandparents were born in what was Germany before WWII and Gomez was born in Riedlingen in Baden-Wurttemburg.
Many years ago I remember watching a US WC qualifier and when Eric Wynalda’s name was mentioned, my brother-in-law commented that it didn’t sound like an American name. I said unless it was a name like Sitting Bull or Cochise, any name would not sound truly American. He laughed.
Glad to see Germany moving in that direction.
53.
Mark S.
Why do the commentators keep saying Germany is through? If Portugal wins and Denmark beats Germany say, 5-0, wouldn’t they lose on goal differential?
54.
dwreck
@J. Michael Neal. Sorry to miss the facetiousness, though I guess others are just humorless as I am. I have just heard the whole “get some actual Germans” spiel meant seriously a few too many times over the years (it started with people talking about Klose and Podolski) and have gotten a short fuse about it. It doesn’t help that as an American living in Germany, over the last year I have heard a number of other Americans complain about trying to find “real” Germany in the larger cities, because apparently there were too many immigrants and too few pairs of Lederhosen, or something.
Here’s a remarkable stat about Mario Gomez – he’s only been in possession of the ball for 22 seconds in the tournament so far. He’s scored three times.
57.
Villago Delenda Est
apologies to all for mentioning the wrong verb in the quote :P
58.
handsmile
Germany is such an impressive side; coach Joachim Loew has developed comprehensive versatility. Each half demonstrated almost a different style of play, with variable demands placed upon midfielders Ozil, Schweinsteiger and Khedira, and yet they delivered so effectively, so efficiently.
German defenders, excepting the world-class Philipp Lahm, remain the squad’s vulnerable rank, however, and Boateng’s suspension against Denmark isn’t helpful. I’m sure Germany would have liked to rest certain personnel on Sunday, but with Denmark’s real chance to advance now, Loew won’t have that luxury (at least to start.)
A calamitous if not, with RVP’s goal, catastrophic situation for the Netherlands. But with the weaknesses of its back line so baldly exposed, van Marwijk has dire squad selection problems that the all-important match against Portugal doesn’t make easier: a midfield with vanBommel and deJong or a midfield with vandeVaart and Kuyt. And Huntelaar must start.
Yet even with mathematical chances and Michel Platini’s trousers, I expect my BJ ESPN brackets to be all in tatters by Sunday evening.
OT – remaining charges agains John Edwards dropped.
I always thought the case was weak as hell. Apparently DOJ agrees.
61.
Paula
Brilliant Orange: The Neurotic Genius of Dutch Soccer, by David Winner, is probably the go-to book for anyone interested in the history …
Haven’t read it myself, but it comes highly recommended by those in the know.
62.
Bill Murray
@Mark S.: first tie breaker is head-to-head even in a 3-way and Germany has beaten both. Second tie breaker is goal differential, third is goals scored
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SRW1
Leberkäse
flukebucket
Gouda for obvious reasons.
anibundel
Mmmmm…port salut.
Amir Khalid
A reader’s query to the Grauniad’s liveblog, and Scott Murray’s answer:
pseudonymous in nc
Käsekuchen. The Dutch public don’t expect much, either.
(The cheese counter at Albert Heijn is, um, interesting: you have a dozen different grades of gouda, and that’s about it.)
Freddie deBoer
Hup Holland!
Keith
Muenster
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Oooooo…That volley by Ozil a few minutes back was even more dangerous on the second glance.
handsmile
Right on cue, almost like a vaudeville routine, the notoriously fractious Oranje has descended into recriminations, “Wesley Sneijder slams ‘pathetic egos’ in Holland team”:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jun/13/euro-2012-wesley-sneijder-pathetic-egos
While Sneijder calls for team unity, “We have to stop living on little islands,” he is also threatening to “stand up against” disgruntled teammates. Rafael van der Vaart, for instance, is pouting that coach Bert van Marwijk (father-in-law of team captain and reputed Nobel Peace Prize candidate Mark van Bommel) “has has preferences [and] I am not part of them.” (Personally I have no sympathy whatsoever for van der Vaart considering who he goes home to.)
It’s all too sadly predictable, like Lucy and that other kind of football for those of us dazzled by Holland’s potential. If only the squad could visit one of those Amsterdam cafes….
Meanwhile, die Mannschaft waits patiently to put in another shift, dutifully workmanlike but usually effective.
Should be a cracking affair, this match.
Valdivia
I am with Germany today.
Lee
Anyone have a good live stream link?
SRW1
GOMEZ
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
GOMEZ!
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Lee:
ESPN’s site has been streaming every game in the US.
http://espnfc.com/us/en
Mark S.
Beautiful!
Gus
I’m thinking more like “hash or lagerbier.”
SpaceSquid
Gods, the colours! It looks like the Irish flag is trying to eat itself.
I guess I’m gonna go with Germany, if only because I’ve been there a few times. And because cheering on Germany whilst in England is always a fun thing to do.
Villago Delenda Est
Limburger
SRW1
And Mario does it again.
Villago Delenda Est
@SpaceSquid:
“Don’t talk about the war!”
anibundel
Watching the Netherlands fall apart like this is ugly.
pseudonymous in nc
2-0, and the Germans look like they can score at will.
Mark S.
This is getting ugly.
SRW1
@Villago Delenda Est:
You mean “Don’t mention the war!”?
SpaceSquid
@SRW1: Don’t mention the misquote about “Don’t mention the war!”
Man, I’d hate to be the Netherlands right now. Not because of the score, but because of global warming.
lol chikinburd
Who else can Holland bring in at left back? Willems is getting devoured.
Lee
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Thanks but DirecTV is not one of the options :( BAH!
Keith
@Gus: Hash, then. The kind that bubbles under heat.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Lee:
Huh? If you’re in the States, you should just be able to click and watch. If you’re running a pop-up blocker, disable it. If you’re at work, you’re SOL.
lol chikinburd
Answering my own question after looking at the Dutch roster: They’ve got nobody. Might as well throw the dice on a 2-1-5-2 and replace Willems, Heitinge, and one of the useless holders with their whole surplus of attacking midfielders.
SRW1
@lol chikinburd:
It looked like Huntelar and vand der Vart were warming up already before half time. So, the Willem problem may have to do with a stark talking to.
J. Michael Neal
Does the German team have anyone with an actual German name other than Schweinsteiger?
Gomez? Khedira? Ozil? Podolski?
These are Germans?
HE Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist
Speaking of Handkaese mit Musik, I’m in Frankfurt today with a bunch of Brits. They will cheer on the Dutch only because they aren’t Germany. I don’t care about football, so it’s all amusingly irrelevant to me.
J. Michael Neal
van Persie!
lol chikinburd
Hand cheese with music. I could swear I saw Hand Cheese With Music open for Couch Flambeau and Big Black back in the day.
pseudonymous in nc
Well, well, well. You can’t say that the Dutch deserved it, but that was a quality finish.
Amir Khalid
@J. Michael Neal:
I’m pretty sure they’re all German citizens. In the thread for Germany’s first match against the Czech Republic, Randinho and I were talking about how for years Germany didn’t have a player of Turkish ancestry other than Mehmet Scholl (whose dad was ethnic German). Until very recently Germany preferred white European players for the Mannschaft, even those born elsewhere, to Turkish-German players.
SRW1
@J. Michael Neal:
Does Mueller count?
Lee
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
It prompts me to enter my cable provider. I disabled AdBlock and at work I’m exempted from the proxy.
I went into the gym for a bit and just watched it on the TV’s they have in there (better quality as well).
dwreck
@J. Michael Neal, I guess you and the German far right might agree. Great company you’d be keeping.
smintheus
No other open threads, but this deserves to be flogged around: A cafe owner complains that Romney’s people treated her “arrogantly” when they used her cafe for an event. When she complained about it, the response from Romney himself seemed snide.
The cafe owner had earlier dealt with Perry and thought he was gracious and sincere.
Amir Khalid
Dirk Kuyt is finally on for Arjen Robben. They should have started Kuyt. That guy works his ass off for any team he’s on, every single time. He always did at Liverpool.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Lee:
I’m trying to remember how I got around this. It doesn’t even ask me when I want to watch footay. I don’t have cable in my apartment, but I’m pretty sure ESPN3 is on our cable system.
J. Michael Neal
@dwreck: Gee, do you think maybe is was JOKING?
I’d be more impressed if they went to full birthright citizenship, though what they have is certainly better than pre-1999.
Detlef
@J. Michael Neal:
Astonishing question on an American blog.
And anyway:
Gomez – German mother, Spanish father
Khedira – German mother, Tunisian father
Ozil – grandparents emigrated from Turkey to Germany.
Podolski – father of German origin and was living in a town that was part of Germany before WW2 (1937). Such people get/got a fast track to German citizenship. Family emigrated to Germany in 1987 when Podolski was 2 years old.
(And anyway Polish sounding names have been around in the Ruhr region since 1900. Roughly 500,000 emigrants did have an effect. So for a German Podolski doesn´t sound “foreign”.)
Following your logic people with hispanic sounding names shouldn´t play for US national teams? Likewise British, French or Dutch national teams shouldn´t include anyone from former colonies?
Why is that normal for every country except Germany?
And you should be a bit careful here. :)
“These are Germans?”
Is there a prominent American politician with an American mother but foreign father around?
J. Michael Neal
So, the Dutch need to beat Portugal and have the Germans beat the Danes, right? That would put Portugal, Denmark and the Netherlands all on 3 points and the Dutch would be guaranteed at least a tie on goal differential at -1.
I guess it depends upon what the tiebreaker after goal differential is.
J. Michael Neal
@Detlef: Jesus fucking christ. Following my logic means that sometimes there are oddities to note in the world and make gentle fun of. Everything beyond that is your own imagination.
catclub
@smintheus: “The cafe owner had earlier dealt with Perry and thought he was gracious and sincere.”
The terms ‘gullible’ and ‘what a maroon’ spring to mind.
Also, the Python sketch on the Piranha brothers in which the line is: “He was a charming and erudite companion, who knew ‘ow to treat a female impersonator.”
Amir Khalid
@smintheus:
That’s terrible. I suspect Mitt was attempting a joke to defuse the tension, and, given his less-than brilliant humor-fu, made the usual complete hash of things. And the cafe owner is right to suspect that a guy who comes off as an entitled dick might well actually be one.
pseudonymous in nc
So, the Germans are through, though they haven’t locked up victory of the group, and need at least a point against Denmark to do so: they’ll know their potential Group A opposition by the time they play, so they may go into that match with an eye on that.
The Dutch aren’t mathematically out of it, but I don’t see enough quality in the side to deliver a miracle.
Amir Khalid
@catclub:
Mind you, that might mean only that as stupid as he is, Rick Perry can at least remember his manners when sealing with the public.
Randy Paul
@J. Michael Neal: Sami Khedira was born in Stuttgart, Mesut Ozil was born in Gelsenkirchen (he’s third generation German), Podolski was born in Poland, but his grandparents were born in what was Germany before WWII and Gomez was born in Riedlingen in Baden-Wurttemburg.
Many years ago I remember watching a US WC qualifier and when Eric Wynalda’s name was mentioned, my brother-in-law commented that it didn’t sound like an American name. I said unless it was a name like Sitting Bull or Cochise, any name would not sound truly American. He laughed.
Glad to see Germany moving in that direction.
Mark S.
Why do the commentators keep saying Germany is through? If Portugal wins and Denmark beats Germany say, 5-0, wouldn’t they lose on goal differential?
dwreck
@J. Michael Neal. Sorry to miss the facetiousness, though I guess others are just humorless as I am. I have just heard the whole “get some actual Germans” spiel meant seriously a few too many times over the years (it started with people talking about Klose and Podolski) and have gotten a short fuse about it. It doesn’t help that as an American living in Germany, over the last year I have heard a number of other Americans complain about trying to find “real” Germany in the larger cities, because apparently there were too many immigrants and too few pairs of Lederhosen, or something.
Randy Paul
@dwreck: What you said.
Amir Khalid
Sez the BBC liveblog:
Villago Delenda Est
apologies to all for mentioning the wrong verb in the quote :P
handsmile
Germany is such an impressive side; coach Joachim Loew has developed comprehensive versatility. Each half demonstrated almost a different style of play, with variable demands placed upon midfielders Ozil, Schweinsteiger and Khedira, and yet they delivered so effectively, so efficiently.
German defenders, excepting the world-class Philipp Lahm, remain the squad’s vulnerable rank, however, and Boateng’s suspension against Denmark isn’t helpful. I’m sure Germany would have liked to rest certain personnel on Sunday, but with Denmark’s real chance to advance now, Loew won’t have that luxury (at least to start.)
A calamitous if not, with RVP’s goal, catastrophic situation for the Netherlands. But with the weaknesses of its back line so baldly exposed, van Marwijk has dire squad selection problems that the all-important match against Portugal doesn’t make easier: a midfield with vanBommel and deJong or a midfield with vandeVaart and Kuyt. And Huntelaar must start.
Yet even with mathematical chances and Michel Platini’s trousers, I expect my BJ ESPN brackets to be all in tatters by Sunday evening.
Mark S.
@Amir Khalid:
That’s incredible.
jheartney
OT – remaining charges agains John Edwards dropped.
I always thought the case was weak as hell. Apparently DOJ agrees.
Paula
Brilliant Orange: The Neurotic Genius of Dutch Soccer, by David Winner, is probably the go-to book for anyone interested in the history …
Haven’t read it myself, but it comes highly recommended by those in the know.
Bill Murray
@Mark S.: first tie breaker is head-to-head even in a 3-way and Germany has beaten both. Second tie breaker is goal differential, third is goals scored