Every time I see this sticker on a car, I get a little irritated, because it means somebody gave MoveOn some money instead of sending it directly to the Obama campaign. In this particular transaction, MoveOn is a middleman that’s not adding any value–they’re just skimming a bit off the top of the enthusiasm for Obama and taking it as their own.
That might not be a majority opinion, but if you’re sympathetic, then you might be interested in my simple theory for one part of the reason that Netroots Nation is so hostile to the Obama campaign. It’s because they wanted to be a middleman delivering net-centric activists, and the Obama campaign cut them out of the picture.
In 2012, Netroots Nation, the Daily Kos and Markos Moulitsas himself are essentially irrelevant to the Obama gameplan. No major names from the Obama campaign attended or spoke. In fact, there were hardly any elected Democrats there (Sheldon Whitehouse was probably the biggest name among them.) Nancy Pelosi, who had been a regular, was a no-show, as was Harry Reid.
In the early years, when big-name Democrats attended their convention, the Kossacks were positioning themselves to deliver “a tremendous and growing number of citizens gathered every day in the virtual world to raise their collective voice and proactively influence their government”. I think the Clinton campaign would have let them handle “net outreach” if Clinton had been nominated. After all, the Clinton Internet and social media efforts were far less sophisticated than the Obama campaign’s.
Instead, the Obama campaign of 2008 built an Internet connection machine beyond the imaginings of probably even the Kos staff. People could blog at Obama’s site, the campaign connected with activists through their accounts on the site, and the net was used to mobilize activists in blue states to work in swing states, in many cases virtually via an Internet-mediated call system. MyBarackObama.com, not DailyKos.com, was where you went in 2008 if you were an Obama supporter. After watching what the Obama campaign built, other establishment Democrats saw how it was done, and most decided that courting Netroots was more trouble than it was worth.
I don’t think this is the only, or even the main, reason for the Netroots anger against Obama, and certainly I have to make a distinction between the attendees I met there, who support Obama and enjoy NRN, and the Obama critics who also attended. But I do think there’s something to it.
Big Wayne
MoveOn gave those stickers away for free in 2008. I know because I got one. So: premise false.
Maude
TO the critics of Obama at NN, it’s about them. They don’t care what has been done or that 30 million people have healthcare that didn’t before the ACA.
the Conster
Who wants to make a special trip to hear a bunch of powerless adults whine and threaten to
cut themselves and run away fromstay home in November? You spend your time working with the people who’ve promised to have your back, and the nutroot purity progressives ain’t them.cathyx
Don’t worry about the bumper sticker. I live in a blue state and I’ve never seen it before.
As to why no big politicians came to NRN? They didn’t want to answer for their spineless positions.
robertdsc-PowerBook
IIRC, that sticker was given away for free.
Schlemizel
Mixy – I spent hours door knocking in ’08 as part of an effort organized & funded by moveon. Whatever dimes they take away from Obama & the Dems worked miracles here as our efforts not only guaranteed the state to Obama but turned 3 state senate seats that had been held by the GOP forever.
Because the state was already going to BHO there was very little organization done here. We need all oars in the water this year particularly.
Schlemizel
@the Conster:
That is hilarious around here given the number of purity trolls we have who complain about every single person or organization that does not believe what the poster believes. Make a list of commentors on the left from as far left as you can think to as far right and you can bet they have been blasted on BJ for not being pure enough.
@robertdsc-PowerBook: Yes, there were free – but they hurt our fee-fees so they must be condemned and ostracized!
fasteddie9318
@robertdsc-PowerBook: Lulzzz but hippies are TEH SUXXORZZ AMIRITE?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
One of the Abbreviated Pundit Roundup pieces yesterday on DK was called People Who Wish They Were Working On Obama Campaign Complain About Obama Campaign. Kind of sounds like what you are talking about.
Personally, I get the impression that DK was hoping to fix a lot of things when Obama got elected, just like Obama was planning – Markos’s thing yesterday was deportations. They may not have been exactly the same set, but there was a lot of overlap. Then reality, and whatever you call Republicans, hit, and Obama spending his political capital on health care and the stimulus meant that fewer other things could be accomplished. Once again, I blame Republicans.
Betty Cracker
“Internet activism” couldn’t even wrest blue CT out of the grasp of that mewling, backstabbing bastard Joe Lieberman. (By the way, no matter what else happens in 2012, at least that son of a bitch will be gone. So there’s that.)
Cromagnon
Who cares what the nutroots say or think or do? They’re as irrelevant as Glen Greenwald. Pissing in the wind
Marty
Sometimes if you live in a red state, you can’t put ANY Obama bumper sticker on your car. When I had an Obama sticker in 2008, my tires got slashed — twice!!
katie5
@Schlemizel: There are purity troll aplenty not to create them at BJ as well. NRN and DK are not monolithic machines. They’re a heterogeneous group of people who are working for progressive causes. I see nothing wrong with maintaining a big tent that accommodates the multiple thems and us.
burnspbesq
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
That’s mostly it. A lot of people on the left spent 2008 convincing themselves that Obama was a lot of things that he never really was, and the actual Obama couldn’t have lived up to their expectations for fantasy Obama even if he’d had veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress and seven Supreme Court justices to the left of William O. Douglas.
the Conster
@Schlemizel:
All I know is that when the purity trolls organize themselves and run enough candidates that win enough seats to form a bloc in the House that can force progressive legislation to be passed, and if Obama vetoes it, I’ll take their criticism of him seriously. Otherwise, they’re just an annoying whine.
fasteddie9318
@Cromagnon: Are you sure? Because for as much whinging as they generate around here, I just naturally assumed that the Jane Hamshers of the Left must have extraordinarily great amounts of power and influence on national politics.
serge
I think MoveOn’s done a great deal of good. Apart from that, with the endless solicitations from DCCC and DNC, who often do harm, I give to the candidates directly whenever I can. Whether through ActBlue or on a candidate’s website. Then I have a better idea who’s getting what.
Schlemizel
@katie5: My point exactly.
Lawnguylander
Remember how beloved Elizabeth Edwards was by liberal bloggers and commenters? She figured out that if you flattered certain people they’d love you for it, she just way overestimated the value of that love. That’s how the Edwards campaign ended up in a completely unproductive fight with that Donohue asshole. Hiring a couple of bloggers, at least one of whom was a complete idiot, what could possibly go wrong? I can just imagine the argument behind the scenes when John figured out their mistake, “NOOOOO, we’ll never make it to the White House if we fire Liss!” I remember following a link someone left over at Rumproast once and came across that Lambchop dickhead from Corrente and some other nobodies’ nobody named Ian Welsh lamenting the fact that the Obama campaign had gone around the likes of them and what a big mistake that was. Yeah, Obama was stupid to ignore the massive influence of the political world’s version of LARPers. Its Kosplayers, if you will. Not having a dedicated staff for outreach to the furry community was arguably a bigger mistake.
rlrr
@burnspbesq:
This.
Obama ran as a centrist and is attempting to govern as a centrist. Expecting him to have done otherwise was wishful thinking. Having said that, he was, and still is, better than the alternative.
Schlemizel
@the Conster:
Yes, and the correct response is to whine about them?
By your criteria nobody here has a right to whine either since we have not elected any progressives either. Maybe if we all stopped whining about each other that would be better?
serge
@Marty: No shit…I had my car keyed, back to front, both sides in 2006. I still had a Kerry sticker on my car. Now, it could have been because I drive a SAAB, or it could have been the political statement, or it could have been the fact that I live in South Carolina. It happened where I live which is one of the most desired, and affluent, islands on the coast. Go figure.
I wear the scars as a badge of honor.
GregB
Marco Rubio is very upset. President Obama is pitting us verse them he says. America has never been this way he says.
How dare Obama pit Democrats against Republicans.
It’s never been done and it is an outrage.
rlrr
@GregB:
Marco Rubio has a sad?
Obama must be doing something right…
the Conster
@Schlemizel:
Every time my kids whined I imitated them, and they hated it, and heard themselves like I did so they stopped and learned to communicate more productively. We’re all after the same thing, but some of us need more productive communication skills.
jprfrog
@katie5: That would be just fine if they wanted to join those of us who have, like me, been around long enough (12 presidents going back to FDR) and been bruised enough (born into the Old Left, walked picket lines and stuffed envelopes for Henry Wallace when I was 8) to learn that half a loaf is better than none. And that you don’t get people to join you by pissing on them.
I never thought Obama was a “progressive” in the mold of FDL or DK or (certainly not!) Glenn Greenwald (yes, I hate the Patriot too, but you have to pick your battles). And the puerile cater-wauling I hear from the far left would be wryly amusing if it didn’t aid the thunder from the far right.
Folks, we are on the brink of fascism , American style(and unlike the German version, possessing nukes), and if like the German Communists the left co-operates with the right to destroy the center, we can look forward to winning the social struggle with clubs and rocks. The far left may win in the long run, like the German Communists, but at the the price of 50,000,000 dead they were rewarded by 50 years of the Stasi. History may repeat as farce, but I doubt hear anyone will find it funny this time.
Carl Nyberg
Do you consider labor unions middlemen and skimmers?
When the Obama campaign deals with the citizens directly, the citizens have very little power to hold the Obama administration accountable.
When the Obama campaign deals with the grassroots through Daily Kos or Move On, the grassroots have more power to hold the Obama administration accountable.
This seems pretty obvious to me, but maybe some people need help seeing it.
But some people like the Obama administration and the Democratic Party moving to the Right on economic issues. And they may see accountability to Democratic Party activists as a bad thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@cathyx: Okay, what is/are the spineless position(s) that Pelosi is afraid to defend?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@burnspbesq: I think it’s more of an expectations of what can be accomplished thing myself. Most presidents get to pull off one or two big things during a term, and most of them aren’t trying to pull the country out of a major recession during that term. Obama started out at a -2 because of the economy and because of the Republican treason. He managed to get some stimulus through and avert a complete economic collapse, the ACA passed, and DADT repealed.
I have said before that the worst think for Obama is that he took over the presidency right when the recession started, rather than after a couple of years like FDR did. What it meant politically is that anything he did to fix the economy could be argued that if he had not done it, the economy would have fixed itself anyway. Politically, people needed to feel the effects of Republican failure. But they didn’t, and so they don’t think it was as big of a deal as it was. And that clouds a lot of their reasoning on what could be accomplished.
FlipYrWhig
@Lawnguylander: Melissa McEwan complained that the recent Star Trek film didn’t make Captain Kirk a woman. When it was pointed out that would be extremely unlikely because these are well established characters, she wrote a piece that continually revisited the refrain “I demand more.” Quite an eye for talent, that Edwards campaign.
GregB
@rlrr:
Every time I hear a wingnut fluffing Rubio I tell them that according the standards of accomplishment for Obama set forth by the wingnuts, Marco Rubio has done nothing in his life.
He went to college, became a lawyer then became a politician.
rlrr
@GregB:
IOKIYAR
FlipYrWhig
@jprfrog: Greenwald as “progressive”… Hmm. He’s very invested in limiting executive power and protecting civil liberties, which is certainly commendable, but not something particularly close to the heart of progressive priorities, IMHO. Or, to put it another way, he’s not really a “bleeding heart,” which I find central to the categories of liberal and progressive.
Carl Nyberg
BTW, infrastructure outside the Obama name list helps elect progressives and Democrats across the country.
Putting all eggs in the basket of presidential politics will guarantee Republicans control Congress.
If we are going to make society reflect our values, we need to build the infrastructure to advance our values.
Don’t like Move On? Fine. Get active in some other organization.
But don’t limit your giving or your activism to presidential politics.
Punchy
I suspect that if this comment were to be written next week, the “have” becomes a “had”.
katie5
@jprfrog: These guys are not members of the far left. There is almost no far left in this country. To be far left is to resemble the members of the far right, who are willing to transform their rhetoric into action. No, what you’re talking about are tribes of kids and codgers. Both will eat their young if they’re sufficiently pure/loyal to the cause.
Is Obama progressive? No. Did FDL and DK think candidate Obama was progressive? They did not. But they were willing to help elect him, even as they thought they could fix them (as someone mentioned earlier). Could they fix him? Possibly. The gay movement certainly was able to fix him a bit. So the whining (especially if it coherently tied to action and money) works sometime.
As to your last paragraph, it’s hard to disagree.
David in NY
I got a MoveOn bumper sticker because it was the only one I could find easily (don’t know where the hell the Obama people were pushing theirs, but it wasn’t obvious to me). Think I got a bunch for essentially nothing, but don’t remember the details. And MoveOn actually tries to do stuff.
redshirt
So sad/infuriating. Because of my Aunt in the hospital, my father – the Colonel – stayed at my place last night. Intelligent man, but life long Republican. He was wavering in 08, but after discussing MaineCare and how his sister would be kicked to the curb if the Republican governor of Maine got his way (he was all for MaineCare!), I then dipped my toes into the waters of his larger belief system. So maddening! I brought up Citizens United and how it’s poisoning everything even further (after he mentioned hightened partisanship – because of the Democrats) and he immediately countered with: SOROS! MoveOn! Both sides do it! He even brought up Bush’s head on a stake in Game of Thrones.
I ended the conversation. So pissed.
That said, I realized shortly thereafter he’s done a terrible job brainwashing his large family – he’s the only Republican among 10 kids and three wives. Take that, old man!
FlipYrWhig
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I think similarly — the financial collapse probably made it easier for Obama to win, but it also created a situation where whatever plan he had for what to do as president had to be ripped up and tossed. Bush and Gore got to spend a long time talking about their dueling plans for what to do with The Surplus (sigh). McCain and Obama weren’t airing competing visions about how to handle the Great Recession — if they had, the great SOC1ALisM! freakout probably would have run its course before it perverted the whole process.
Raya
Donating to MoveOn, or other “middleman” orgs, isn’t necessarily about just supporting Obama. First of all, as others have said, MoveOn’s efforts around election campaigning take in more than just one candidate (so instead of only donating to Obama, you’re donating to an organization that will identify and help out other candidates who support the policies you believe in). Secondly, and more importantly to me — if I just give money to Obama, he doesn’t know why I gave it, or what policies of his I support; there’s no feedback mechanism. Whereas if the money is funnelled through MoveOn (or ActBlue, or whatever), it’s clearly labelled as coming from the “progressive/liberal wing” of the Democratic party. It can’t be mistaken for Blue Dog money and used to show that I support his drones in Pakistan, or whatever.
I prefer to give via orgs that send a clear message about what specific policies I support. I’ll donate directly to a candidate if (a) I like ALL their positions, or (b) they do something specific that’s good and I want to be part of a wave of “thank you” donations that act as a reward mechanism. Otherwise, my money goes via orgs that attach a message to the cash.
David in NY
Boy this whole discussion is revolting.
Warren Terra
As the very first commenter says, in 2008 MoveOn was giving those stickers away in return for a few mouse clicks; Obama campaign stickers had to be bought, or picked up at the campaign office, if they had any in stock (they often didn’t have much campaign swag; when I was doorbelling, I got two buttons, one for me and one for the first kid who asked if he could have it). The campaign’s gotten smarter about this in ’12, I’ve been sent three bumper stickers of two different designs, and two are on cars.
As to the more general point, I have mixed feelings. The problem with MyBarackObama.com is that Barack Obama owns it. I happen to be an Obot, but as institution building that’s questionable; the classic example is the Green Party, who thought that by running Ralph Nader they could build the party and get a million or more voters – but Ralph kept his contact lists, and didn’t turn them over to the party. One more group of people he could screw, I guess.
Also, it’s important to have organized ideological groups that are broadly compatible with the overall Democratic framework but fight like hell for their flavor of it – more attention to workers’ rights, or to civil liberties. The problem with MoveOn and with NN isn’t that they’re separate, it’s that they’re fairly ineffectual, especially the latter.
As Schlemizel pointed out in the case of MoveOn, these independent Democratically-aligned organizations can even muster their own volunteers, who can be vital to the effort, and organization like that does take money. The classic example there is the unions; union members are mustered to support Democratic campaigns, but unions haven’t been subsumed into any candidate’s campaign. I guess I’m pretty skeptical of your denunciation of outside political-activism groups.
Van
I went to a Moveon meetup here in VA after the 2010 elections. At 54 I was one of the youngest people there. Unfortunately, everyone wanted to hold protests. I would have preferred voter registration drives, or youth outreach. Still Moveon does do some good. They did have online get out the vote operations, and some of the commercials they run are ok. Still they seem to be drifting with no real strategy.
Daily Kos is ok. They have good front page articles and good election analysis. Sometimes they are critical of Obama, but they’ve toned that down quite a bit. For a while there were giant flamewars between Firebagger types and Obama supporters, but Markos took over and put a stop to a lot of that.
I’ve worked some with OFA(Obama For America)and they seem to have the right idea of building a nationwide political machine for electing Democrats. This is good if we can make the Democratic party more progressive.
Overall the problem for Progressives, Liberals, the Left, is their is no overarching strategy for making this country more politically progressive. Some of this is due to the purists on the left. Most of the people in this country are probably liberal, but conservatives have managed to convince them they’re conservative. Groups like Moveon should run commercials pointing out all the good things liberals and progressives have done for this country like the 40 hour workweek, ending child labor, Medicare, Social Security, etc. It works for the Oil companies.
FlipYrWhig
@Warren Terra: That all makes sense — but why would the outside group then put out campaign stickers like these that downplayed the actual outside group?
ant
daily kos has trouble just being an interesting blog these days.
the website has no influence at all on anybody’s opinion anywhere. full stop.
mk3872
I replied to my spam emails from MoveOn saying that I’m saving my $$ for Obama directly and not giving to MoveOn. Because I completely agree that they’re skimming off of Obama supporters and their goals are not fully aligned to mine and Obama’s.
HRA
http://leanforward.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/15/12238478-us-to-stop-deporting-and-grant-work-permits-to-younger-illegal-immigrants?lite
Yep, my president has done it! Yeah!
Waiting for the whining…
kc
Well, I’m certainly glad I didn’t pony up any money to send you and DougJ to that suck-ass netroots conference . . .
devtob
Here we go again, organizing a circular firing squad.
The vast majority at DKos and NN are liberal Democrats who want to help elect Democrats who support liberal values.
Most certainly including Obama.
And people like Mazie Hirono instead of Ed Case in Hawaii, for example.
Calling them “nutroots”, as Hannity, etc., do, accomplishes nothing.
FWIW, urging people to not vote for Obama is a bannable offense at DKos.
Jennifer
Eh, I think you miss the mark if you think the Dems didn’t turn out for NN because “Obama cut out the middleman.”
The Dems didn’t turn out for NN because in the wake of Citizens United, NN is superfluous to their campaign cash needs – they’re having to look to the deep pockets to even try to compete. Compare and contrast with 2008, when Obama was mostly citizen-financed in his campaign (which was, after all, the entire reason Roberts and company legislated from the bench to allow the cronies who own the GOP to buy elections). With what they’re up against campaign finance-wise, they don’t have time to waste on purity trolls (not that NN is all purity trolls, but they are a feature); they’ve got to be using that time to raise money.
low-tech cyclist
The whole point of Daily Kos, it seems to me, is to have a game plan for increasing the political power of progressives in this country, and bringing us together to execute that plan as best as we can.
Kos’ game plan in the past had been “more, better Democrats.” A good plan, it seemed, but something went wrong with it in 2010, and the economy wasn’t all that went wrong.
I’ve been waiting ever since for a debate over there on what went wrong with the plan, and how it could be improved.
The obvious thing is primarying. In 2006, the Kos/Hamsher crowd backed Ned Lamont against Lieberman, and Donna Edwards against Al Wynn. A good start, but at some point the primarying effort has to be a bit more widespread and a LOT more systematic, so that the threat of a primary is predictable in a way that encourages Dems to vote the way we’d like.
IOW, you’d want to have some metric, maybe a couple dozen key votes, that Dem Congresscritters will be rated on, and ranked in either absolute terms, or (preferably, IMHO) relative to how Democratic (or not) their district was. And make sure the 5-10 Dems that scored the worst were certain to be primaried.
Then everyone would know that there was a limit to how often they could vote with Republicans before they fell into the getting-primaried zone, and would be motivated to stay out of the zone. Which would have the additional effect of shifting the zone itself further left.
This should have been done years ago. If I’m not mistaken, Atrios proposed something like this 4-5 years ago.
Xantar
@Van:
I would argue that the reason we can’t make the Democratic party more progressive right now is because of the Republican party. The GOP is the party of batshit insane reactionary policies unrooted in reality. That means the Democratic party is the party of everybody else who places any kind of value on facts and on making government work. This includes a lot of conservatives. Until the GOP starts consistently losing and realizes it must moderate or die, we have to live with conservatives in our party while also keeping the wingnuts at bay. Unfortunately, that often means enacting progressive policy is going to take lesser priority for the time being.
Warren Terra
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s fair enough – but remember that in 2008 those were (so far as I know) the only free Obama/Biden stickers, and by far the easiest stickers to get ahold of, free or not. So maybe they didn’t their own name on there prominently because the point was just to get “Obama/Biden” stickers on cars.
gussie
The problem with MoveOn is all the circular firing squads.
That’s why I come here.
Just Some Fuckhead
That is some funny shit. This was pure gold:
“they’re just skimming a bit off the top of the enthusiasm for Obama and taking it as their own”
My hat is off to ya.
FlipYrWhig
@low-tech cyclist: I think the likely outcome of that effort would be the bad Democrats trouncing the more progressive primary candidates. There aren’t that many cases where Democrats are too conservative for their districts. Lieberman was a great example, and Wynn too, but I don’t think it happens very much that the people want a plucky outsider but there’s a centrist careerist clogging up the works and voting with Republicans. Also, you’d need to field and staff up A LOT of candidates. It’s an interesting idea but I fear it’s quixotic.
katie5
@gussie: Well said. Let’s hope we don’t create another one here.
Violet
@ant:
Yeah, the rec list diaries are really a mixed bag. One of the top diaries on the rec list over the last day or so was a 42 year old guy who has stage IV cancer. I know that’s a terrible diagnosis and he was looking for advice and support, which he got, but for a blog that is supposed to be about “electing more and better Democrats”, it seems a little off topic. Someone here made the observation that “community” was one of the few things DKos had left and this sort of thing seems to back it up. The guy seems like a really nice guy and I hope he got good advice and gets a full recovery. It just seemed kind of strange to me.
I might also add that Markos had a top listed diary on the rec list titled “Why I hope Bob Kerrey loses”. So much for electing MORE and better Democrats. Bob Kerrey isn’t a good enough Democrat, so let’s hope he loses and turn over the Senate to the Republicans. Okay, then.
FlipYrWhig
@Warren Terra: I think that was the point, just getting stickers on cars, and I won’t fault that. But if the point is to channel the energies of a subset of Democratic voters, and brand them, and push them, it seems like you’d want to have swag that blazoned the name of your group at least as big as the name of your candidate.
FlipYrWhig
@Violet: Hoping Bob Kerrey loses also flies in the face of Markos’s enthusiastic backing, back in the early days, of candidates like Brad Carson in Oklahoma and Stephanie Herseth in South Dakota.
Kerrey is often an irritant. Manchin is much worse. And even so, they beat the alternative. Either beat them in a primary, or hold your nose and choose them in the spirit of harm reduction.
Mino
…you don’t get people to join you by pissing on them…
Perhaps you might apply that equally to yourselves.
And people, particularly women, are quickly learning that state governments can harm them as much or more than the federal. Obama has not and seems not to plan to nationalize this election, so Move On and other liberal organizations may be more important in local elections than Obama.
I do not support blue dogs, so I donate through Act Blue to individuals.
Mino
@low-tech cyclist: I certainly wouldn’t expect the DNC to go along with anything like that. The DLC has just shifted over to the DNC.
Van
@Xantar
I agree with you to some extent. But now is also a good time to start playing offense instead of defense. What conservatives have done is build a huge messaging machine designed to play on peoples tribal and cultural loyalties. It started under Reagan with the ‘latte sipping, Volvo driving liberals’ meme. And the ‘Cadillac driving welfare queens’, etc. Also the amount of money it costs to win elections makes many Dems depend on corporate Pacs to win elections. But the big thing is liberals need to learn how to turn out the vote for non presidential elections.
FlipYrWhig
@Mino: The DNC’s goal is for Democrats to win. That includes conservative Democrats when that’s who’s running. (I.e., ideology isn’t their primary consideration.) At this point all Republicans are conservatives practically across the board on every issue, but that uniformity isn’t true of Democrats.
Taylormattd
Hahaha, awesome.
And you think that thereisnospoon post was something. Oooooh, are you ever in trouble now.
Taylormattd
@devtob: Um, no they aren’t. Either a majority or a clear plurality of the self-labeled progressive blogosphere hate Obama’s guts, and have for years. But you already knew that.
Sentient Puddle
@low-tech cyclist:
Yes, and in your prognosis, I think you’re making a fundamental error that Kos and much of the rest of the netroots are making as well. To illustrate, let me rejigger the game plan a bit:
Step 1: More Democrats.
Step 2: Better Democrats, while maintaining the results from step 1.
Mino
@FlipYrWhig: The DNC never puts its finger on the scale in a Democratic primary??
Taylormattd
@Lawnguylander: Omg, remenber that insane post from Matt Stoller (or maybe it was Bowers?) on that very topic? He was convinced Obama would lose based on the lack of emails that were directed to him.
jlow
Nothing is more funny than an internet circle jerk making fun of an internet circle jerk for being an internet circle jerk.
ploeg
Uh, no. More likely the Clinton campaign would not have had any “net outreach” worth speaking about. As we have witnessed, unless the outside group is packing millions and millions of dollars in cash, letting some outside group handle a substantial portion of your campaign is some kind of stupid.
The netroots issue has something more to do with a genuine divergence of styles and interests: Obama is governing in a way that he finds comfortable and that he thinks will maximize the chance that he is re-elected, and many don’t like it.
Samuel Knight
Wow, it’s so productive to spit on Kos and others when they’re down.
Because Obama’s centerist strategy has worked wonders for the economy and his popularity.
But more basically because you know almost every one of the net roots folks knows that they were played for fools in the Obama – Clinton match up. They were suckered by a pro-Joe Lieberman Senator who had absolutely no intention of being a progressive.
And now as we stare at the very real possibility of a GOP takeover in November – to gloat about it is asinine.
devtob
@Taylormattd: There is a major difference between disappointment and hatred.
And there is no data to back up your absurd claim.
Rob
The Tea Partiers would never tolerate the scornful, dismissive attitude from the Republican leadership that the progressive base endures from the Dems on a daily basis. Respect them, give them what they want or they’ll support somebody else. Plain and simple. Time for us to do the same. I applaud NN for holding the Dems’ feet to the fire. I am taking a page out of the Tea Party playbook and NOT voting for Barak Neville Obama this year. We have to take back our party before we can take back our country.
Phil Perspective
@ant: The fact that you are posting about it proves you are lying. Also, if they didn’t have any influence, why do you, and the FP, keep posting and complaining about it?
gelfling545
@jprfrog: I keep (though I should know better) getting into discussions with a few young friends who sob that they just can’t support Obama because he doesn’t believe in every single thing they do. I have tried repeatedly to explain that there are not, at this time, any possible candidates who believe everything they do and who also have a chance of actually being elected. I have asked them to name names of whom they could support that a majority of citizens might vote for but no one seems to have any idea. Now I’m at the point where my next argument might be “What, are you stupid?” I’ve seen presidents come & go since Kennedy and there never has been one yet with whom I agreed on everything.
the Conster
@Rob:
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you’re a white man.
Phil Perspective
@FlipYrWhig: Kerrey will be just as bad as Manchin. And it’s timely you mentioned him. You should read this:
http://nyti.ms/Ntixjx
Just make sure you have a barf bag handy.
Dan
@Rob:
With brilliant logic like that, I can’t possibly imagine why the NN crowd gets no respect.
People trying to f*ck my kids over because Obama didn’t give them a nice enough pony don’t deserve my respect.
slag
Et tu, mistermix? And on a Friday even!
Tell you what…next time you feel the need to spout this kind of nonsense, take a second to think about all the ways in which you might be wrong and write about that instead. Maybe start by trying to get your basic facts straight and go from there. You never know…you just might learn something from the experience.
taylormattd
@devtob: Uh huh.
For example, it is merely an expression of “disappointment” calling Obama the assassinator in chief, claiming his supporters would gleefully cheer on Obama if he raped a nun live on TV, and calling them the dumbest motherfuckers in the world.
No hatred there at all.
Also, it was merely disappointment back in 2007, you know, before he took office, when those exact same people spent all of their time calling him an “empty suit.”
beemer
@Carl Nyberg: And that’s the way the Obama campaign wants it. Unconditional support without the ability to pressure from the left.
beemer
@Dan: A nice enough pony? Obama has done a spectacularly shitty job leading on health care and the economy, bending to right-wing bullshit at every turn. Only now is he starting to make any noises opposing these idiotic positions, and after his abandonment of “fierce advocacy” and the public option, I see no reason to trust him.
He’s a damned sight better than any Republican, but I want no part of a cult of personality.
amk
The fact that nancy pelosi gave the finger to the nutroots is telling. Circle jerk wreaks a draining pool.
Julia Grey
Sigh.
I could slap those producers for putting out that tidbit. Just SLAP ’em.
Gus diZerega
Move On is not perfect but they and other progressive groups were trying to build a base for more than a single politician and a single election.
I guess that is too difficult a concept for you to grasp.
devtob
@taylormattd: Anecdotes are not data, so a few extreme anti-Obama things on the Internet do not prove that “a majority or a clear plurality of the self-labeled progressive blogosphere hate Obama’s guts, and have for years.”
mistermix
If I had this post to write over again, I’d skip the MoveOn paragraph.
I don’t doubt those who say they got that sticker for free, but google it, they’re for sale, so some have paid, plus if MoveOn gave it to you for “free” as a member, you probably donated something that indirectly paid for it. And I don’t doubt that some MoveOn efforts have been effective, but I have a couple of on-the-ground examples from 2008 where they helicoptered in to my district and generally made a mess.
But it sure got in the way of my main point about Netroots/Kos and Internet advocacy.
taylormattd
@devtob: Anecdotes are, in fact, data, when there are like 8 total big boy bloggers, and they all hate Obama almost all the time. And it’s beyond ludicrous to say one needs a double blind scientific study to determine whether a group of people (far more than is representative in the normal population) at FDL, HuffPo, Greenwald/Salon, TalkLeft, Atrios, Daily Kos trash him all the time.
And since when are the leading lights of Netroots Nation “a few” of the people in the left blogosphere?
sviscusi
@Taylormattd: It was Stoller deftly showing his political acumen in a prescient post called Obama is done.
devtob
@taylormattd: “There are like 8 total big boy bloggers, and they all hate Obama almost all the time.”
So Markos and Atrios “hate Obama almost all the time”!?
Enough bizarro world for me, bye.
LarryB
What’s up with MM and progressive activists? The party stiffs them in quixotic pursuit of the illusory ‘centrist’ independent vote and it’s their fault? Talk about blaming the victim.
Rev. Jeff
I’ve got a move-on.org Obama-Biden sticker and I paid/donated not a dime for it. I get what you’re saying about middle-men but for my part, and others too I’m sure, we grabbed it because it was there and free.
Trakker
Look, can we just stop wasting energy criticizing every liberal or lefty organization? At this point we’re getting beaten and outspent and losing ground every day and we can’t afford it. We need imagination and ideas, we need leaders who have the smarts and talent to turn this country around. I’m deeply disappointed by Obama, but I’m stuck with him and I know he’s the best of the two choices we have. I’m just thankful for every American who is working for a better country even if I don’t agree with them on everything. Let’s fight after we vanquish the Republican Party.
Bill in Portland Maine
I enjoyed meeting three U.S. Senators there (Whitehouse, Cardin and Sherrod Brown) as well as the gaggle of Representatives who attended. Future Senator Elizabeth Warren was delightful. And Obama’s NN-specific video, while nothing to write home about, was still appreciated—he didn’t have to do that. Howard Dean, Van Jones, Paul Krugman and Eric Schneiderman were all great. It was one of the best NN conventions, I thought, and the movers and shakers in Providence really rolled out the red carpet. Your point about the kingmaker effect may have validity, but so what? People learned a lot, networked a lot, and had a fucking blast. San Jose will have a challenge living up to Providence.
And just to put myself on the record: OBAMA IN 2012 WHOOOOOOO! ! ! ! ! ! !
–
FlipYrWhig
@Mino: I didn’t say that. But they don’t withhold support if the disfavored candidate wins. Jon Tester and Jim Webb both defeated inside-track candidates, and the DNC proceeded to help them get elected in the general.
FlipYrWhig
@beemer: “I want no part of a cult of personality” is the heart of all the “netroots” and other assorted leftier-than-thou bullshit. Yes, you’re a brave and independent minded thinker, a critic, not a conformist, not a sellout. Here’s your cookie. Now that you’re done basking in the glow of your own independent spirit, there’s work to do, so grab a mop.
steve
I give money through kos, act blue, etc, because otherwise my money goes into a giant bucket, and I have no voice. I am not happy with the Democratic Party establishment, and I want them to know my money is coming from the left wing. It is not the result of a bunch of highly-paid consultants running ad buys in some market, it is not a result of some carefully crafted “triangulation” strategy. They are only getting my money reluctantly, because the alternative is much worse.
When Kos, Digby, etc deliver a big virtual check to a candidate, they know where that money came from, and they need to know the money might not arrive next time if they piss me off.
BruinKid
@Violet: And a lot of us, me included, disagreed strongly with Markos in that diary.
General Stuck
Good post, MM
Nathanael
Premise false (as noted by others) and theory false too.
People “on the left” are ticked at Obama for (a) copying right-wing Republican policies (not on everything, but on many things), and (b) acting as if the Republican leaders are reasonable people who can be negotiated with, rather than the nihilistic, destructive lunatics which they actually are. The two points are related.
To the extent to which Obama does *not* do (a) and (b) he regains left-wing support.
I donate through ActBlue (’cause, you know, it provides easy credit card processing) directly to House candidates, state-level candidates (Secretary of State candidates are particularly important), and during the coordinated recalls, the Wisconsin Democratic Party.
The money can make a much larger difference at the lower levels. Plus which, it’s much easier to find candidates who aren’t doing things you hate. :-)
Nathanael
@Van: “Most of the people in this country are probably liberal, but conservatives have managed to convince them they’re conservative. ”
I have tried telling people that at this point, with FDR having been elected 80 years ago, *liberalism is conservative* in the true sense of the word ‘conservative’, and so-called political “conservativism” is actually radical right-wing extremism.
It’s true.
Nathanael
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): “Then reality, and whatever you call Republicans, hit, and Obama spending his political capital on health care and the stimulus meant that fewer other things could be accomplished. Once again, I blame Republicans.”
I blame the Senate Democrats who respected the most-holy and worshipful rite of the filibuster — rather than abolishing it (which can be done with 51 votes) and *actually getting stuff done*.
Unfortunately, due to the bogus 60-vote bullshit, I don’t even know *which* Senate Democrats refused to abolish the filibuster. Why? Because they can vote “yes, abolish the filibuster” secure in the knowledge that the 60-vote rule will mean that it won’t be abolished even if 59 of them vote yes.
I am therefore forced to support only Senate candidates who explicitly promise to abolish the filibuster.
David Koch
This.
You remember that wacko left blog Open Left (which is now — surprise, surprise — defunct). The vaunted idiots on the front page would openly complain that Obama wasn’t reaching out to the NN.
David Koch
@devtob:
Since when? I was reading an open thread three weeks ago and it had the usual nut jobs saying obama is worst than bush and how no one should vote for him.
David Koch
@Nathanael:
Some of that is true. But they disliked him long before he became president. The truth is they don’t really care about policy, they’re far more interested in red meat.
I mean, for example, Elizabeth Warren supported the bank bailout, opposes decriminalizing pot, doesn’t support single-payer, is hawkish on foreign policy, etc., etc., yet she gets a complete pass.
Did you know that when Howard Dean ran in 2004 he opposed the public option, opposed single-payer, opposed withdrawing from Iraq, opposed cutting the bloated pentagon budget, yet declared balancing the budget to be a top priority. It’s true. But he got a pass on all of that shit.
Did you know the sainted john Edwards, the runaway hero of the 2007/8 blogosphere voted for the bankruptcy bill, voted to repeal Glass-Steagall, voted for so called “free trade” with China, and co-authored the invasion resolution with Joe Lieberman. And yet, with a hideous voting record like that, the Netroots worshiped him.
The big difference is that Dean, Edwards and Warren gave/give the netroots a steady diet of red meat, covered in blood. OTOH, the speech that made Obama a national figure, “there are no blue states, there are no red states, there is only the United States” — they hate that vegan shit.
If Obama reached out to them and made them feel important and provided them with big slab of red meat every 2 weeks, he could get away with all the shit Dean, Edwards, and Warren got/get away with.
Ian
On the rare occasion when I come to this place, I disagree with the posts, but agree with the tagline.
“Consistently wrong since 2002.”
RNYR
You know, for people who complain so much about progressives whining, you sure do whine an awful lot about progressives.
Just sayin’.
RNYR
On a broader point: re-electing the President is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for progressive policies being enacted in this country. In order for those policies to come about, work has to be put into electing House & Senate candidates, and to build the bench at a local level.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the President’s re-election isn’t the be-all and end-all of progressive politics. And yes, MyBO was a phenomenal achievement, speaking as someone who worked to elect him starting in February of ’07 — but there’s tons of organization that’s taking place outside of that, and has been taking place over the last decade…at places like, yes, Daily Kos and MoveOn.
Moreover, the organization that takes place outside OFA/MyBO provides an outlet for those folks who are disenchanted with the administration, but want to participate in the political process. I don’t know about you, but I’d much rather have those folks working to elect progressive/left-of-center Congresswomen & Senators than going off to flack for the Green Party candidate, say. And as I wrote above, ultimately that helps everyone — I’m guessing that in crafting the ACA, say, President Obama would’ve much rather have dealt with a bunch of Sherrod Browns as opposed to Joe Liebermans & Ben Nelsons.
From my perspective, it seems like you want to have it both ways: you want all hands in on re-electing the President, and then, when the President does something that parts of the base are unhappy with, you hector them to “make him do it” — ostensibly by electing more progressive folks to Congress, I think. Well, it’s a mite hard to do that if all hands are in on the President’s gig! :-)
Anyway, just a few thoughts.