I’ve paid scant attention to the “Fast and Furious” furor for one simple reason: There’s an inverse relationship between an issue’s importance and the ferocity of the wingnut circle jerk surrounding it. The details of the case sound vaguely fucked up in the sense that it’s generally a bad idea to supply vicious criminals with powerful weapons, and it sucks that innocent people ended up dying when the criminals predictably used those weapons.
The whole sorry episode sounds like a textbook case of blowback, and you could find countless examples by examining bone-headed initiatives undertaken by any number of large organizations, be they public or private sector. The CIA’s weaponization of Osama bin Laden is just one such example.
But had I paid more attention, it might have occurred to me to wonder why the wingnuts were wanking so frantically over a case involving gunplay, as if that were a bad thing. (I mean, aside from the fact that both the President and the Attorney General are not white.) Now I get it:
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
The clip is about 18 minutes long but worth watching in its entirety if you haven’t seen it. It’s perhaps also worth noting that the lunatic who pulled this whole “Fast and Furious is a ploy to gut the Second Amendment” conspiracy straight out of his ass, “Fox News expert” Mike Vanderboegh, is indeed a pinwheeling-eyed crazy person who has authored McVeigh-wannabe fap-fiction that would make the writer of “The Turner Diaries” blush.
“Fox News expert” Mike Vanderboegh is such a compelling author of militia fap-fiction that he inspired a pack of gun-fondling crackpots to hatch an anti-government terrorist plot late last year. The plot was foiled by the fact that the four plotters had only around a teaspoonful of brains between them.
You will likely be unsurprised to learn, as I did, that this gubmint hatin’ Anwar al-Awlaki to the white sheet set has time to produce fap-fiction for gun-fondlers and inspire members of the US House of Representatives to waste millions of tax payer dollars on paranoid wingnut gun control fantasies because he receives a monthly government disability check. Didn’t see that one coming, did you?
[X-posted at Rumproast]
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Well I for one am shocked to learn that an outspoken Libertarian is on the government hand out.
That almost makes him a grifting butt munchers who would do anything for a dime, but we know Libertarians are serious people, not grifting butt muncher who would do anything for dime. Silly liberals.
Steve
It’s interesting that the guns from the Fast and Furious operation are the sole known exception to the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” doctrine. Somehow Eric Holder is personally responsible for the death of that border patrol agent, because the murder weapon came from a DOJ operation. But in literally any other context, the idea that someone who sells or provides a gun is responsible for the crimes that may be committed with it is complete anathema to the NRA types.
Steve M.
You know, if that crusading liberal 60 Minutes show were still on network television, it would do a profile on this appalling guy and his ties to the right and the GOP, and tell us evetything you and Rachel just told us, and that would be the end of his influence.
Oh, wait….
Bubblegum Tate
Yes, the whole “it’s an insidious plot to gut the Second Amendment” theory has been pulled wholesale out of the collective wingnut ass, but that’s exactly why they’re so fervent about it. It’s like creationism or “tax cuts always increase revenue” or “Planned Parenthood makes all of its money off abortion”–it’san article of faith, an emotionally held truth that cannot be denied and should not even be thought about, much less questioned. It couldn’t possibly be any other way for them.
c u n d gulag
No, I’m shocked.
SHOCKED!
Shocked, that someone who hates government would still be willing to accept a check from it.
Why, one would think this person’s a functional feckin’ idjit, or a hypocrite! But, I repeat myself…
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
Maddow’s been really good on this. I’ve taken to watching her again.
The militia angle is an interesting Blast from the Past, actually… I remember that’s where most of the mischief came from during the Clinton era of black helicopters, UN takeovers, and an odd tendency to think The X-Files was a documentary.
Two decades on, and they’re even less attached to reality, yet seem to have more power than ever.
Gods help this Republic.
Cacti
Speaking of gubmint haters who lurves them some gubmint checks…
Ron Paul tells Sam Stein that he collects Social Security retirement benefits, despite comparing the program to slavery.
Of course, that’s on top of his $174,000 congressional salary and federal employee health benefits.
Linda Featheringill
Motives are difficult to discern. I’ve heard several suggested for Issa & Co., none of them flattering.
I realize that he thinks that Holder is uppity, in addition to the AG’s ties to Obama. But if Issa is hunting for somebody to dominate, he probably picked the wrong prey.
If I were Holder, I’d put some people investigating Issa and pick up all the dirt I could find. Then I would make several anonymous phone calls to several local police departments and make accusations. Maybe send along a bit of proof. Some of it would probably stick. The aim, of course, would be to hound Issa until he wound up in jail.
But Holder may be a nicer person than I am. He probably is.
That’s a shame.
J.W. Hamner
You know, the world of the conspiracy theorist/fox news viewer is certainly much more exciting than the world I live in.
What’s particularly devious about this alleged plot to gut the 2nd Amendment is that it requires the complicity of the Bush administration since they started the whole gunrunning sting thing in 2005-2006.
Keith
So now it’s OK to take Social Security because it was his money to begin with? Well that’s an interesting take on it.
Mnemosyne
Not only that — it turns out that the acting director of the ATF (because of course the Republicans have blocked the appointment of a full-time agency director) has a certain something in common with Obama and Holder.
It’s black folks all the way down!
Also, too, I have no doubt that the ATF fucked this one up, but good. From what I can glean at Wikipedia, it sounds like this was one guy’s pet project that he managed to sell to both Mukasey and Holder. You can argue that Mukasey and Holder are ultimately responsible since they’re the ones in charge of the DOJ, but that’s not the same responsibility as the guy who pushed for the project has.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@c u n d gulag: No! No! I am far more SHOCKED than you are over Libertarian mouching.
gene108
Michelle Bachman was on C-SPAN’s Washington Journal at 8:30 am, as I was leaving for work.
She’s great at spitting out RW talking points.
It became pretty transparent to me the whole fuss about all the leaks the NY Times get and the stuff about the ATF gun program gone wrong is to reinforce the stereotype that Obama/Democrats are weak on national security.
She did come out with a new talking point, in the few minutes I watched/could stomach and that’s David Axelrod, Obama’s political adviser, sits in on Obama’s “Terror Tuesdays”, which is when the President decides who to execute.
Her point is former members of Congress or former Congressional staffers are not allowed to sit in on these top secret meetings, in the “most secure room in America”, where the President decides who to kill, so why is his political adviser in on these meetings?
Also, too how is information getting out from these super top-secret meetings that are held in the “most secure room in America”? Is there something else going on here the Obama Admin isn’t being honest about?
It’d be irresponsible not to speculate.
EDIT: Also, too seems they are just going back to Clinton-era redux in this election cycle, with all these conspiracies and trying to convince folks Obama’s weak on defense.
Also, also too their economic plan is “designed” to tackle problems from 30 years ago, which aren’t happening now.
Why don’t they just create a Zombie Reagan and Zombie Taft to handle things. They don’t have any new ideas anyway.
Mnemosyne
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
The Lone Gunmen did manage to thwart an attack on the World Trade Center involving an airliner being flown into the building a few months before 9/11 happened.
But nobody could have predicted that anyone would do that, no sirree!
Villago Delenda Est
Wasn’t the object of “Fast and Furious” something of a sting to find gun dealers who would be more than happy to sell guns to Mexican drug cartels? Is the problem here for the 2nd Amendment types not really who the guns were sold to, but the fact that it was identifying who sold the guns?
Cacti
@gene108:
Separation of powers. How does it work again?
slag
Wow. Way to go, Rachel! The brick of aluminum cell phone analogy was so right on.
WereBear
I suspect that is a great part of its appeal.
It explains the fantasist/believer’s own lowly status (them durn liberal elitists keeping the white man down!) AND explains the strength and reach of their deadly tentacles (they are everywhere! trust no one!) AND provides a thrill even in the midst of mundane shopping for ammo and MRE’s.
Strike a blow for freedom from the easy chair, indeed.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Mnemosyne:
I will confess to having actually watched that pilot (I think it was in March).
Except the plane in that episode was remote-controlled, and the intent was to start an anti-Terror war to enrich the defense contractors. Funny how Chris Carter’s career pretty much ended after that series was cancelled.
My main problem with 9/11 conspiracies (or X-Filesy conspiracies in general) is that they presuppose a competence from higher-ups government that has never been in evidence.
SatanicPanic
@Steve: I have been wondering about this myself. So he sold some guns… why is this bothering people again? Don’t guns make everyone safer?
Keith
@gene108: Too bad the answer to MB asking why Axelrod wasn’t “Because Karl Rove was in charge of rebuilding New Orleans”
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Villago Delenda Est:
I hear bells ringing…
Piratedan
@Mnemosyne: Loved that show, unhappy that it didn’t get much love, thought that the shows featuring them were some of the best in the whole X-files series.
Chris
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
The X-Files certainly picked the right time to air.
Re the power/paranoia discrepancy, like I’ve said before: the thing I see in teabaggers that reminds me of the old fascists isn’t the racism per se, it’s the paranoid lunacy that goes with it. Hating “the Jews” is one thing, but actually believing that “the Jews” control the world (even as you strip them of their ability to control so much as their own lives) makes you a whole other degree of lunatic. And it’s that lunacy I see in the teabaggers.
WWStBreitbartD
Wow Maddow is a dishonest hack.
Most of the video was about Vanderboegh
Took 7 and half minutes to get to Fast and Furious and she talked about it for 30 seconds, blamed Bush and covered up the 300+ people killed.
“If you don’t know anything about Fast and Furious you are forgiven.” because NBC/MSNBC has been trying to ignore. the story
Fox News is not the only one who covered Fast and Furious.
CBS’s Sharyl Attkisson coverage has been excellent and was awarded the RTDNA National Edward R. Murrow Award for Excellence in Video Investigative Reporting for the “Gunwalker”
Also Overlooked if Eric Holder lying to Congress 3 times.
The ATF does not gunwalk in a letter to SEn. Grassley (retracted by the DOJ)
Holder only knew about gunwalking for a few weeks (Revised to a few months)
Bush AG knew about gunwalking. (retracted by the DOJ)
bemused
It’s very disturbing that Republican legislators are so stupid they fall for any conspiracy theory or made up crap on the internet, no matter how insane. If it fits their mindset, facts, smacts. Abortions cause breast cancer, yadda, yadda.
Conservatives friends and relatives consistently send me internet hoaxes even though I send them snopes and other debunker links back. Now they think that if the email hoax ends with snopes said it’s true at the bottom, it must be real. I rarely get these emails from liberals. It may just be my experience but Republicans seem much more gullible and susceptible to the internet rumor mill.
catpal
Thank you Rachel Maddow for a sane voice in media.
Can we get the News Media to ask “does Issa want to be the next Ken Starr and spend over $100 MILLION investigating everything about a president he doesn’t like”
Villago Delenda Est
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
This is absolutely the problem with 9/11 conspiracies. They presuppose that the deserting coward and Cheney were that competent. What they WERE competent at is taking that incident and making political hay out of it, and that was mostly Rove. As for planning the whole thing, please. They crippled the occupation of Iraq at the beginning by insisting on not planning for an occupation of Iraq and firing any General (like Shinseki) who suggested that planning was needed, and the planning involved numbers of troops well beyond what were available.
Villago Delenda Est
@WWStBreitbartD:
Ah, the cretinous dogshit drools over its keyboard and demonstrates what a shithead it is, to the amusement of us all.
catpal
OT but the outcome of this story made me smile today.
Fundraising goes viral for victim of school bus taunting
horrible kids Bullying a grandmother is so sad. my local newspaper commenters would assume only poor, non-white children behave this badly.
Villago Delenda Est
@catpal:
Greece is the word!
amused
@Villago Delenda Est: But the troll makes an important point – no one but Fox and its rabid fan base was talking about the new Whitewater crap (or fap, actually), which pissed them off no end. Issa managed to get the silliness on the front page of every paper with the contempt vote and Obama’s citing of executive privilege gave the story a nice hook to blame him with, or at least allow them to plant the “what is he hiding?” seed. Now, the right can use the “cover up” meme at their leisure. It’s always about catapulting the propaganda so it’s “out there.” Same as it ever was.
Piratedan
@WWStBreitbartD: did not this entire program start under the previous administration, yes or no?
did not the previous administration invoke “executive privelege” rights over previous investigations to their affairs, yes or no?
I’m not gonna try and compare the tragedy of government screw ups, be it the loss of life for mexican citizens and US Border Patrol agents or US and British troops and Iraqi civilians because I would just as soon not have our government be involved in either of the schemes, but your faux outrage at one and not the other is telling and doesn’t reduce our cynicism that your motives are less than pure and more about counting coup.
lacp
@catpal: Instead of gunwalking for Los Zetas, why didn’t AG Holder make sure that Karen Klein was strapped? WHAT DOES HE HAVE AGAINST WHITE GRANDMOTHERS? Once again, black people are the real racists.
The Dangerman
I’d bet next week’s paycheck that his “weapon” of choice is a snub nosed model…
ChrisNYC
So funny that Issa times this for right before the healthcare decision comes out. Gets credit for being an asshole, from his misinformed base, and doesn’t have to worry about anyone paying attention after next week. They are real screw ups these GOPers.
Cacti
@Piratedan:
We don’t even need to mention Iraq.
Where was the Republican outrage when 3,000 people died after Bush brushed off an August 2001 PDB entitled “Bin Ladin Determined To Strike In U.S.”?
Villago Delenda Est
@gene108:
Mind you, Reagan was, effectively, a Keynesian, although he was more into the less efficient stimulus of military spending (buy weapons that have no economic utility, save conquest and plunder) than infrastructure investment, which they pointedly cut back on, to include infrastructure maintenance…let’s defer these bridge upgrades/repairs for as long as possible.
The result is the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis.
catpal
@lacp: that is what we will see next, the need for Stand Your Ground by the kids on the school buses.
Sly
A more believable conspiracy theory is that gun manufacturers funnel millions of dollars into the NRA to scare their members that Obummer is gonna take their guns, so they better go out and buy more guns from the gun manufacturers. Why doesn’t the NRA disclose its funding sources? WHAT DOES WAYNE LAPIERRE HAVE TO HIDE?
Sloegin
Does gun oil contain some hallucinogen that I’m unaware of?
That’s near as I can figure about some of these gun noots.
ChrisNYC
Sort of OT but I watched Game Change recently. What a bunch of bull that narrative is. Steve Schmidt and Nicole Wallace so shocked and alarmed at nutso Sarah Palin. How could such a nasty silly candidate rise in the stately, honorable GOP? The big thing that they show Palin saying is that Iraq did 9/11. All the GOP bigwigs in the movie are all horrified — where would she get such an idea!? We know of course she got it from their dear Cheney, who was pushing that line through 2009. So tired of the “wow look at our crazy base” nonsense from the GOP.
The Dangerman
@Villago Delenda Est:
Which is why I think Pawlenty is DQ’d for the VP gig; it would give Obama too much of an opportunity to talk about his jobs program and dangerous bridges. Then again, maybe “Good and Pawlenty” is the best choice of a bad lot.
These Right Wing conspiracy crackpots are really quite something; in the past, they had Clinton rubbing out more than one of his aides (Foster, Brown) and they had Clinton rubbing one out (ok, perhaps caught red handed on that “one”).
handsmile
@Villago Delenda Est: (#28)
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@WWStBreitbartD:
Be silent, troll, lest I Beseech my Mighty
VolcanoPotato God to Banish Thee And Thy Cheetos from Thy Mother’s Basement.Cassidy
Why is the consensus that F&F was a bad idea? The implementation was obviously fucked, but the idea sounded like a decent one, in theory.
bemused
@The Dangerman:
In several ways, T-Paw would fit with Mitt. It’s not a tax, it’s a fee, raid school funds to “balance” the budget, kick the due bill down the road and lousy job numbers.
Villago Delenda Est
@handsmile:
Hey, credit where credit is due. He had the able assistance of his chief recruitment officer, George Walker Bush.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Steve: Guns don’t kill people, black attorneys general working for black presidents kill people, even if it is done by the previous administration.
handsmile
@Villago Delenda Est: (#48)
You mean Crown Prince Abdullah’s BFF?
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushabdullahhands.htm
arguingwithsignposts
FTFY
Paula
Iran-Contra
Arming of Osama Bin Laden
Paula
@Steve:
couldn’t agree more
Jebediah
@WWStBreitbartD:
OT, but the answer to the question posed by your nym is “Continue to decompose.”
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
And then poor Chris Carter couldn’t sell The Lone Gunmen‘s pilot episode in international syndication.
@Villago Delenda Est:
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
I don’t know about the conspirators within the government being super-competent. The X-Files tended to depict them as arrogant, overconfident, and often working at cross purposes to one another. Remember, in the end they were defeated by a rogue FBI agent whose closest associate had trouble taking him seriously.
different-church-lady
Apparently the meme is taking hold that the ATF actually gave the guns. Let’s not reinforce it.
Frankensteinbeck
@gene108: and @Villago Delenda Est:
But ZOMBIE Reagan would have a rotting brain and lurch around as a stiff, shambling caricature of his former self, spouting the same words over and over with no context. ‘Tax cuuuuts! Tax cuuuuuts!’ He would also produce the kind of visceral ‘uncanny valley’ discomfort when seen that humans experience from moving corpses.
In summary: They ARE running zombie Reagan this year.
(Little worried this will double post.)
gene108
@Cassidy:
The really unaddressed point is why do Mexicans have to buy guns in the U.S.?
You figure Mexico is such a “lawless” country that it’d be easier and cheaper to buy guns there, without having to import them from America.
Frankensteinbeck
@gene108:
For wingnuts, the answer to that is easy. Everything is better in America, so they come here to buy BETTER guns so that they’re packing the latest military hardware like any wingnut wants to.
I have no idea what the actual realities of the situation are.
The Ancient Randonneur
Did a real live Army LTC actually says this, or is this just Michael Vanderboegh running his mouth:
Army CID are you reading this stuff? You might want to get some clarification on just what he is encouraging his adopted sibling to partake in. Just sayin’.
Citizen_X
@WWStBreitbartD:
Wait, are you actually denying that MORE GUNS = LESS CRIME? Heretic! Burn him!
The American market supplies thousands of guns to Mexican gangs every year. Mexicans view border smuggling issues as two-way: drugs go north, guns go south. Thus their news always refers to drogas y armas, drogas y armas: drugs and guns. We (really, American gun sellers) are selling plenty of guns to drug lords anyway, without Federal help. This operation was an attempt to track that traffic.
Just trying to explain to you what you’re mad about.
Citizen_X
@The Ancient Randonneur: That jumped out at me, too. $10,000 says it’s just pulled out of Vanderboegh’s ass.
trollhattan
Speaking of guns(pbut) and Patriots(tm) Joe the
PlumberWould-be Congresscritter informs us the Holocaust was a result of Gun Control. Or something like that.i.e., If only Europe’s Jews had been armed to the gills….
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2018478640_apuscampaignvideoholocaust.html
Mike Lamb
My question is what is the end game here? I mean, obviously they want to get rid of Holder and embarass the admin. But what’s the vehicle to get them from Point A to Point B? My suspicion is that these types of law enforcement activities (i.e. allowing illicit materials back into the “stream of commerce” so to speak in order to make a bigger case/catch bigger criminals) is probably fairly frequent. Obviously, this one went very wrong.
With that said, it seems to me that we would need to see a lot more (sane) connecting of the dots, including that but-for “Fast and Furious”, numerous people would still be alive, before a conclusion can be reached that there was criminal impropriety in the DOJ.
Jebediah
@trollhattan:
Makes sense. After all, Germany totally avoided conflict with countries that had armed armies.
J.W. Hamner
@Mike Lamb:
I presume conservatives just want to force Holder to resign by making it a big enough distraction for the White House that they feel it’s hurting the reelection campaign… not to actually see Holder brought up on any kind of charges.
Villago Delenda Est
@Citizen_X:
The operation was an attempt to track that traffic.
That’s the problem the wingtards have. They were looking for the suppliers…usually fanatical 2nd Amendment types who are funnels for the small arms industry’s products.
Mnemosyne
@Cassidy:
It sounds like this specific operation was a bad idea, though it’s not clear whether the problem was the planning, the implementation, or if something else unforeseen went wrong.
I don’t know that anyone is arguing that sting operations are bad by definition. They’re definitely tricky to run and the people involved really have to know what they’re doing and what they want to accomplish.
But I think some of the people on this thread are right: what Republicans are pissed off about is that the DOJ was investigating American gun-runners who were selling guns to Mexican gangs. Americans should be allowed to sell any guns they want to anyone they want! Second Amendment! Second Amendment!
@gene108:
IIRC, it’s because “lawless” Mexico has better (and tougher) gun control laws than we do, so it’s a lot harder for criminals to get hold of guns. But it’s quite easy for criminals to find US gun sellers who are happy to sell them whatever guns they want.
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
@WWStBreitbartD: Concern troll is very concerned.
brantl
This Wahlberg merde-sucker represents me. I am so embarassed.
WWStBreitbartD
@Mnemosyne:
FTFY
Criminals just buy them from the corrupt Mexican police and can terrorize the civilian population at will .
No one want to refute Holder 3 lies?
The ATF does not gunwalk in a letter to Sen. Grassley (retracted by the DOJ)
Holder only knew about gunwalking for a few weeks (Revised to a few months)
Bush AG knew about gunwalking. (retracted by the DOJ)
WWStBreitbartD
@Piratedan:
It failed under Bush so they stopped it.
Obama/Holder brought it back, put it on steroids, removed any safeguards and did not tell the Mexican Government.
different-church-lady
@WWStBreitbartD: I’m pretty damn sure neither Bush nor Obama knew much about it at any point.
You got three choices here: (1) discuss without the bullshit (2) Get cut up for your bullshit (3) Wander on back to your little agrregator project before #2 happens.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@WWStBreitbartD: Most Mexican police can’t afford their own guns, let alone get extra ones to sell to criminals.
WWStBreitbartD
@different-church-lady:
Still waiting for the cuttin up
What is BS? If Obama is not interested in Gun Control why did he use the bogus 90% of Mexican guns stat?
Obama Repeats ’90 Percent’ Stat for U.S. Guns Recovered in Mexico
Mnemosyne
@WWStBreitbartD:
And where do those corrupt Mexican police get those guns to sell to the criminals? They ain’t buying them from Russia.
Mnemosyne
@WWStBreitbartD:
So, just to be clear, you see absolutely no reason why American gun dealers should be prohibited from selling guns to criminals in Mexico, and any attempt to reduce the flow of arms from American gun sellers to Mexican drug cartels is “gun control”?
Jebediah
@Mnemosyne:
Maybe his position is that the 2nd Amendment (the wingnut interpretation, of course) applies to Mexican drug cartels?
ETA: Clearly you are a typical librul racist who racistly wants to deny Mexicans the right to have our Constitution apply to them. It’s right there in the Bible – “and God said let there be the 2nd amendment.”
spongeworthy
@Villago Delenda Est: They were not “looking for the suppliers”. They directed gun dealers to sell to known trafficers–this is fact. The guns were coming from gun shops, going over the border with no plan–none–to track them.
What’s more, when border agents attempted to track the weapons they were told to stop. When they complained they were told to STFU.
All this is known to people following the story. A quick look at CBS’s coverage would allow you to avoid these simple mistakes.
apocalipstick
@The Dangerman: Is he red-handed because of the chafing?
Mnemosyne
@spongeworthy:
Given that the operation was being run by ATF using ATF’s plan, this is proof that Holder is personally responsible … how, again?
As I said above, this was a major fuckup by ATF and clearly means that agency needs a good top-to-bottom cleaning. Getting a permanent director instead of a series of interim directors would be a big step in the right direction. But I’m still not getting how this was Holder’s operation that he needs to go down for.
Given the area of the country where this terrific plan originated, it looks like maybe the deputy director of the ATF needs to lose his job (you know, the guy who was actually in the Arizona bureau before his promotion), but that ain’t gonna happen anytime soon. He’s the wrong color for the Republicans to be calling for his head.
oldswede
Nancy Pelosi said today that all these attacks on Holder are payback for Justice investigating GOP voter suppression schemes.
This sounds like the real deal here, not the gun smokescreen.
oldswede
WWStBreitbartD
@Mnemosyne:
US State Department under H. Clinton/Obama.
US approved large escalation of legal gun sales to Mexico
apocalipstick
@spongeworthy: Actually there was a plan to track them. It involved radio transmitters (the prototype was made with parts from Radio Shack, I believe), but no one took battery life into account. When the batteries died, so did the transmitters.
Mnemosyne
@WWStBreitbartD:
Gosh, yes, clearly it’s hypocritical of the US government to sell guns to the Mexican government while trying to prevent US gun dealers from selling guns to Mexican drug cartels. After all, Those People are all the same and you just can’t trust those shifty Messicans, amirite?
(Edited because it needed more of a rant)
Mnemosyne
@apocalipstick:
Jaysus. What a frickin’ comedy of errors.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@oldswede:
Not a few of us thought and said that yesterday and today. But did she really say that, out loud, in plain English, when there were reporters around?
(SOUND OF TYPING)
Why yes, yes she did.
AA+ Bonds
So I guess this is one of those things where good liberal Democrats put their game faces on so they can safely :( about it in years to come
Yknow, like the Tonkin Gulf fraud
AA+ Bonds
AA+ Bonds
Just so – and the textbook will point out that Democrats, when confronted by their principles during an election year, hid under the bed and magically developed a shit ton of trust in federal cops over the drug war for just long enough
Pandemoniac
@Piratedan:
It is important to differentiate between the programs (Wide Receiver, Gunwalker, F&F) and the tactic of gunwalking (sending guns into Mexico instead of interdicting them). F&F started during Obama presidency and included the practice of gunwalking. Wide Receiver (and who knows how many other, we won’t know because Issa won’t look into the Bush Admin) included gunwalking.
The AG under Bush (like Holder) knew about the program but not the gunwalking. And the gunwalking is at the crux of it all. There is no evidence that the ATF director (acting because Republicans have filibustered or shot down every nominee since gunwalking became controversial. Every. Single. One.). There have been 5 “acting” directors since this BS began.
The original gunwalking was not approved by ATF directors or DOJ. There is no evidence that gunwalking was ever approved by any of the 5 acting directors or anyone at DOJ. After tons of docs, emails, wiretap summaries, DOJ testimony, ATF testimony, there is no evidence that the gunwalking was ever approved by anyone other than the field agents in the Phoenix ATF office. Why didn’t the directors know about gunwalking? My guess is 5 directors in 6 years. Bottom line: no testimony that shows that anyone from U.S. Attorney in Phoenix (Burke) on up ever approved the tactic.
Yes, and did not initially allow Meyers and Rove to testify before congress, fought to make sure there was no transcript of their testimony, ultimately had to concede that U.S. attorney Iglesias was right when he said the DOJ hiring and firing was not based on performance or, you know, any notion of Justice. DOJ officials lied and evaded inquiries despite the piles and piles of evidence that they were lying. In the end, they had a big resignation party and we wound up with the turnip Mukasey. This isn’t even getting into any of the myriad of other invocations of ExecPriv or the conviction of one of Bush’s closest advisers, done in for doing his master’s bidding. As many here are wont to say: grifters gonna grift.
Edit: you won’t get the Breitbrats to admit their guys are sitting in jail or failed despite all of their invocation of Executive Privilege. Strange because the criminality of the Bush and Reagan admin is a badge of honor for that kind.
different-church-lady
@WWStBreitbartD:
Damn near everything you’re saying here.
But to be fair, about 85% of what everyone else is saying is BS too.
Looks like it’s going to be another summer of having dishonest, bullshit arguments about serious subjects.
different-church-lady
@Pandemoniac: Ah… finally someone comes along who’s more interested in fact than narrative.
Speaking from the point of view of the bed vetters, that is.
Let’s face it, we all know what the game is here: Holder fucked up not knowing about the program and now it’s all about milking the vague confusion in the public mind for maximum humiliation to the administration. The GOP is going to lie to the public about what happened and the Dems are going to lie to themselves about whether it was serious.
In a sane world we’d be having a debate about whether this is enough of a fuck up for Holder to step down. But this is not a sane world, and it will be made deliberately less sane in the months to come.
spongeworthy
@Mnemosyne: It wasn’t just ATF. Again, common knowledge to those following the story.
And falling back on this “blunder” excuse isn’t cutting it either. The program worked exactly as it was designed to. What nobody can tell us is why it was designed this way and who authorized it. I don’t know if Holder should go down for this, but he sure has been stonewalling. Why?
As is commonly the case, if they’d come right out and said, “This guy here authorized this pile of crap and it was a sorry-ass mistake”, all this would be over. Why didn’t that happen?
different-church-lady
@spongeworthy:
Oh, you’re just precious.
Pandemoniac
@WWStBreitbartD:
When ATF agents don’t get approval for gunwalking from the field supervisors, or from the directors of the ATF, or from the DOJ attorney in Phoenix, or from anyone else in the DOJ (either Bush’s flunkie, Mukasey, or Att. Gen. Holder) one can only assume that field agents will follow directives. So Holder was wrong, but did not lie, as far as he knew agents were not allowed to gunwalk. He had to amend that to say that gunwalking was happenening against the stated policy of the ATF and DOJ. Steeeerike One.
Terry was shot in December. Agents traced the gun and warned Supervisors and DOJ that it came from gunwalking that was not approved by anyone. Burke ended the operation when he announced indictments in January. In the following weeks (in February) Holder found out about the gunwalking and ordered an Inspector General investigation into who in ATF or DOJ approved the tactic (nobody did). In early March he testified in the Senate about the Inspector General investigation. In May he told Issa’s committee that he had only known the operational details that included gunwalking for a few weeks but didn’t know the exact date, either way, well after the operations had officially ended. He said that when he was asked how long he’d known “about” F&F, he assumed the question was asking “about” gun walking. He admitted that he had been briefed about F&F, as had Issa months before without being told about the details about the gunwalking. None of the emails, wiretap summaries, documents or testimony by agents, ATF supervisors, U.S. attorneys, DOJ officials ANYTHING indicate that any of this is false. Steeeeeeerike Two.
Since Mukasey received a memo detailing a “first time” gunwalking program in Project Gunrunner, most people would assume that Mukasey knew about it, especially since ATF agents objected to the notion that this was the “first time” “gunwalking” had been used as a tactic. But if they say he was too stoopid to connect the dots. Whatev. Steeerike three.
Thank you for playing. Come back anytime.
Snip. “Aw, did you see that? I just chopped off your head again! Your head’s rolling. You can’t even see it ‘cuz your eyes are on your head!”– Monsterhouse
Pandemoniac
@WWStBreitbartD: Question: wasn’t all this started under a previous administration?
Wait. Make up your mind did they know about it or not? First you said Mukasey was too stoopid to realize from the memo he got that a “controlled delivery” and subsequent discussions of gunwalking were NOT proof that he knew about it. How could they stop it if’n they didn’t know ’bout it?
And it failed? They didn’t prosecute anyone, did they? Too busy getting thrown in the slammer, something lying to congress about politically motivated firing of U.S. Attorneys. Under the Att. Gen. Holder, people were indicted, convicted and 5 folks plead guilty. I know your kind might shudder at the thought of people getting locked up for breaking the law, shit happens, eh?
They brought back Gun interdiction, yes. They brought back Law enforcement, yes. Gunwalking no. ATF agents did not get approval from anyone in the Obama administration for gunwalking.
There were never any safeguards. Ask agent Terry or any of the thousands of Mexican Citizens that were murdered using these weapons. You mean the Bush Admin. didn’t know about the gunwalking and somehow managed to tell the Mexican Government that they were engaged in this tactic that they didn’t know about? Really? If you think (hypothetically speaking here) that the Mexican government was always warned of gunwalking by the Bush Admin, you are wrong AGAIN. Warning the Mexican government happened as an afterthought.
Snip
fuckwit
Also, Issa is in a REAL BIG HURRY to get this contempt thing done before the election, not only to distract Holder from prosecuting Civil Rights VRA cases, and to make for FAUX “News” fodder to rally the base, but also because Issa knows– really knows– that come January 2013, Speaker Pelosi will not be wasting time on this, and might actually be investigating banksters instead– or even Issa himself.