I’ve never seen any of her movies, but I used to pretend that I had seen Harry Met Sally and argue with people about how bad it was and what a rip-off it was of “Manhattan”. I wanted to see it, but I just can’t take Billy Crystal or Meg Ryan, and Harry Connick is not a new Frank Sinatra (though that is what the world needs now). I’ve read some of Ephron’s stuff and it’s very funny, and she’s very funny in this obituary piece.
Reader Interactions
102Comments
Comments are closed.
Southern Beale
I loved When Harry Met Sally but I thought it was closer to a rip-off of Annie Hall than Manhattan.
DougJ
@Southern Beale:
Doesn’t someone rush off to get someone at the end and fail, like in Manhattan?
As I said, I’ve never seen Harry Met Sally, I just don’t like those two.
If it had been Sandra Bullock and Jeff Bridges, I would have seen it.
shortstop
I have a book of her essays/columns written in the 1970s; got it at the Brandeis book sale a couple of years back. The issues in it seem quaint now but are fascinating from this point in time. She was very, very earnest then, but the book has moments of real humor, even if it’s the heavily telegraphed type that takes longer to set up than the payoff may merit.
MikeJ
@DougJ: I think someone rushes off at the end of Sleepless in Seattle, but I’ve never seen WHMS. And frankly, I’ve only seen SiS because some girl wanted to bang me and put on the dvd after getting me liquored up.
D0n Camillo
@DougJ:
If it had been Jeff Bridges and Tom Hanks, I’d have gone to see it. They would probably have had to change the title though.
Raven
@DougJ: So you haven’t seen the fake orgasm scene?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-bsf2x-aeE
beltane
I really, really disliked “When Harry Met Sally”, but then again, romantic comedies about annoying yuppies was never my cup of tea.
Violet
@DougJ: I can’t remember the exact ending, but, spoiler alert!, they end up together in the end.
I love “When Harry Met Sally.” I can understand not liking it if you don’t like the actors, though. For instance, I absolutely do not get Andie McDowell’s appeal, outside of being sort of attractive. She just comes across as vacant and shallow to me. I love “Four Weddings and a Funeral” but never ever understood why ANYONE would be interested in her for more than a quickie. She’s so dull. Her being an object of desire just seems so contrived it somewhat took away from the film for me.
handy
@D0n Camillo:
Brokeback Sally?
dr. bloor
This thread should be titled “in which BJers comment about how movies they obviously haven’t seen rip off other movies.”
DougJ
@D0n Camillo:
I hate Tom Hanks. All downhill after Bosom Buddies.
Clark
Maybe it’s been too long since I’ve seen When Harry Met Sally, but I can’t see how it’s a Manhattan ripoff.
DougJ
@DougJ:
Maybe Jeff Bridges and Peter Scolari.
Keith G
Curiously not surprising.
beltane
@Clark: It wasn’t at all like Manhattan or even much like Annie Hall. If anything, it was more like the precursor to the episodes of Seinfeld featuring George Costanza and Susan.
PurpleGirl
I liked an earlier book/movie she wrote — Heartburn. Her early essays were very good too.
Bobby Thomson
I can never be sure if you’re trolling, but I thought I was the only one who couldnt stand Billy Crystal and hadn’t seen that movie (except that one scene that wasn’t funny the first time).
Grover Gardner
I HATED “Mixed Nuts”–leaden direction–but she was extraordinary. Reading the obit made me think how much she’ll be missed. I’m feeling nostalgic… :-)
Grover Gardner
And DougJ–you’ve NEVER seen any of her movies?? Shame on you. :-)
Valdivia
I can’t stand Meg Ryan either but have some affection for When Harry Met Sally. Though that movie is not at a rip off at all of Manhattan. Two different universes. Manhattan is a classic, the other film is typical RomCon Americana!
I liked Julie/Julia a lot.
Schlemizel
I happen to really like WHMS, its a sweet little film with some decent acting in parts. I don’t see the comparisons to Manhattan, & Annie Hall is a bit of a stretch. Didn’t care for ‘Sleepless’ and hated ‘Mail’ (which was a rip off of ‘A Shop Around the Corner’). Enjoyed her novel ‘Heartburn’.
Overall she was funny and entertaining and given the Hollywood (and American) culture that women really are not those things I think she deserves a lot of recognition for her career as well as her writing.
shortstop
@PurpleGirl: Heartburn was based on her marriage to Carl Bernstein, right?
I think the funniest thing NE ever said was that David Gergen couldn’t be Deep Throat because he’s six-six or something–too tall to run around meeting people in low-ceilinged parking garages.
JGabriel
I was never a fan of Ephron’s films, but I have two collections of her journalism from the 70s and she was a very good essayist. I liked her. She will be missed.
.
Valdivia
@PurpleGirl:
Heartburn is particular good with excellent casting.
JGabriel
shortstop:
Yes, but Ephron didn’t direct that one. It was directed by Mike Nichols. Epron did the screenplay, though.
.
Larkspur
She earned her living writing stuff. I will always be impressed by that.
PurpleGirl
@shortstop: yes
geg6
Damn, I really liked Nora Ephron. Saw most of her films (though not all are good), of which WHMS is probably the best. Read a lot of her stuff, especially in my young militant feminist phase back in the 70s, and I loved that she had a sense of humor which, it seemed, so few of the prominent feminists of the time had. But I seen and read her interviewed numerous times. She was hilarious and smart and powerful. And someone, I could tell every time, who would be a fucking blast to hang around with, drinking wine and just talking. I could see her as someone I could relate to and who, despite her great personal success, who never forgot who she was or who never bought into any of the hype as so many of our elite/celebrity class does.
RIP Nora.
J.W. Hamner
@Violet:
My irrational hatred of “Four Weddings and a Funeral” is largely rooted in the implausibility of Andie McDowell as Helen of Troy.
EDIT: Also… have seen several of Nora Ephron’s movies. Not a huge fan, but she seemed to do good work and I hope she lived a full and happy life.
noodler
Wow, pretty sad here. I like a good romcom and whms is easily top ten. She did my blue heaven which is fantastic mob comedy (as an italian, i’ll say) and michael was quite enjoyable too.
Back to whms tho, kinda lived it. Kinda waiting for the last scene…
Watching it again tonight.
beltane
@noodler: I thought My Blue Heaven was hilarious. It was all I could think of duing 2008’s arugulagate.
Ohio Mom
The obituary says she wrote about everything that ever happened to her but she didn’t. I followed her work and she never mentioned she had a chronic disease.
She was funny, insightful and had good politics. It’s a downer, knowing there’ll be no more things from her to read.
Linnaeus
@JGabriel:
My mom had the book Heartburn. I read it when I was 14 or 15, I think. Pretty funny.
gogol's wife
@Ohio Mom:
Right, I had no idea she was ill. I loved Sleepless in Seattle but didn’t see any of the other ones, except bits of When Harry Met Sally. I can’t stand Billy Crystal either, although I don’t mind Ryan. Now I’m intrigued about My Blue Heaven — what was that? I’ll have to ImDB it.
noodler
@beltane: it’s a veg et able . Sweet potato parmegean. Yep its in my store of knowledge.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
She was a delight to read – sharp, witty and insightful. I’m much more of an action film than a romcom fan, so I’ll let the rest of you compare her films to others you may or may not have seen. She’s a writer I’ll miss.
Violet
@J.W. Hamner:
I can’t stand her in anything. She used to be in some hair color commercial and I’d even get annoyed if I accidentally saw that. She’s just so…vacant. I don’t understand why anyone would be interested in her for more than about thirty seconds. And who in the world casts her in any films? She can’t do much beyond scream and look vaguely concerned.
Valdivia
@Violet:
she started out as a model. Then she was cast in Greystone The Legend of Tarzan but they dubbed her because they thought her accent made her sound not right for the part and that was some huge scandal. After that she kept being cast though I too never thought she played anything beyond neurotic pretty well: I think her only decent outing was Green Card.
Nicole
When my husband and I got married, we chose Harry’s New Year’s Eve speech to Sally as one of the readings.. It was great fun hearing the wedding guests start laughing as they recognized it.
Ohio Mom
@gogol’s wife: I was thinking mainly of her last two books of essays, both on getting older and being old — “I hate my neck” and “I remember nothing.” She wrote about friends dying, and what it was like to experience ageing, but carefully left out that she had a form of leukemia. I always thought she was a lot more guarded than she appeared.
hal
I loved her article about the Apthorp in NYC. It just helped feed a fantasy of living in NYC in a fantastic apartment for dirt cheap, that is until the times catch up with you.
Jewish Steel
On the Tom Hanks/Meg Ryan tip: Joe Vs The Volcano? It’s surprisingly good.
Esp the first 15 minutes.
lamh35
I loved Julia & Julia. Stanley Tucci & Meryl Strep how can I not love it.
lamh35
http://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/06/26/nora-ephron-friends-colleagues-remember/
kc
Who could have predicted that a bunch of hipper-than-thou assholes would weigh in immediately at the top of this thread to let us all know how much they hated WTMS. Or were too hip to have even seen it.
DougJ
@kc:
Awesome!
Mnemosyne
I think people tend to forget that When Harry Met Sally was the first in the cycle of “new” romantic comedies of the 1980s because so many subsequent movies ripped it off. It’s kind of like how it’s hard to watch Godard’s Breathless and really understand how new and innovative it was at the time because everyone else has been ripping it off for 50 years.
Heartburn is the perfect book for B-Jers: snark and recipes in one compact package.
brettvk
I liked the book Heartburn and had to steal my copy back from an ex who tried to abscond with it for the recipes. But I thought the movie suffered from the decision to portray the leads as WASPs instead of Jewish. Ephron’s movies — meh. I dislike Billy Crystal so much it spoiled WHMS for me, although like everyone my age the orgasm scene is engraved in my memory.
rikyrah
she wrote some of my favorite romantic comedies.
RIP, Ms. Ephron.
lamh35
@kc: Well, not me. I love Sleepless in Seattle and I even like When Harry Met Sally. I don’t care if it makes the hip kids like me less…
Oh and Tom Hanks is what of the best actors of his/our Tom..”Philadelphia”, “Cast-Away”, “Forest Gump”, “Big”..come on
ETA: “Sleepless in Seattle” is in my top 10 Romantic movies ever. I own it on DVD, I watch it when it comes on TV during Christmas and I rewatch it whenever I feel in the need for a nice cute non-threatening simple rom-com.
pk
I liked WHMS, I like Meg Ryan, Billy Crystal and Andy McDowell (Ground Hog day was the best)and WHMS is nothing like Manhattan. Cannot understand the hate.
MikeJ
@kc: If it makes you happy I haven’t seen any of the recent underwear pervert movies either.
jl
Sad news, Nora Ephron was a sharp and funny writer. I’ve seen most of these ‘Rom Com’ movies, and they kind of blur together for me after awhile, like the one where the chic kept faking orgasms at weddings.
So, snark, OK? I’m hip dammit.
Except there is always a scene that makes me tear up and sniffle. That is embarrassing, but I can’t seem to help it. Always some damn touching moment(T) (that I should see from a damn mile away). But it always happens, even if I think overall the movie is dumb.
Been one or two where I tear up from laughing at the mess.
Pie-lady
Doug,
you might try reading some of her old essays, as others have suggested. She has gotten off some good zingers over the years. For example, referring to the Nixons as “chocolate-covered spiders”, and then there was her description of Sally Quinn’s philosophy of journalism: “Being blonde doesn’t hurt”.
SFAW
I kinda feel the same way about some other so-called “good” films.
For example, I would never see “Raging Bull” because Joe Pesci’s character in “My Cousin Vinny” was not realistic.
And that film “Rashomon” – I mean, couldn’t that guy make up his mind as to what REALLY happened?
And after reading uncounted bloggers talking about a “Potemkin village” etc., I don’t know if I could ever see “The Battleship Peterkin” (or whatever).
And that ridiculous “Seven Samurai” – what a rip-off of “The Magnificent Seven”! Just like he copied “Fistful of Dollars” when he made “Yo! Jimbo!” (I think that was its name).
There’s plenty of others, but I think you see where I’m going with this.
So, yeah, I TOTALLY get where you’re coming from (or whatever it is you hipsters/hepcats say these days).
Valdivia
@jl:
that’s the mark of a good RomCom–even if you see it coming you still cry.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Yes, but how about another folk singer?
DougJ
@SFAW:
Was that supposed to be funny?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@DougJ: To what are you replying?
ETA: Now the comment has shown up, I see.
MattR
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Sorry, I already have a hole in my head.
hamletta
I don’t understand where Andie McDowell comes off as Helen of Troy in 4W&F. She’s just a pretty lady that Hugh Grant is taken with in one story line.
I love (almost) everything Nora Ephron ever did. No one can recreate Grant and Dunne, or Grant and Russell, or that other couple. (You’ve Got Mail will stand as a flat-out abomination, and I actually like In the Good Old Summertime.)
But she understood how to sell the romantic comedy to today’s audiences, and she did it with verve and snap.
Her parents were script doctors back in the day, and I remember reading an essay she wrote about her mother rising up from her (near) deathbed and saying, “I shoved that tampon in my twat and told him, ‘Harry, invest in Tampax, and you’ll never go broke.'”
That is fucking hilarious. And true. Just ask Tex Sensenbrenner.
SFAW
What other choices do I have?
Ironic? Snarky? Droll? Iggerant? Stupid? FP-worthy? Moore Award contender?
trollhattan
Her movies never connected with me, but I always found her delightful in interviews and considered her somebody “I’d like to know.”
RIP Nora.
Nicole
@Valdivia: Very true. Romantic comedies all have predictable endings. It’s the journey getting there being fun to watch that makes a great rom-com.
Valdivia
@Nicole:
Exactly, and for me, there is a very American way of doing Rom Coms that I enjoy. And as people have noted here, Ephron was the one who modernized it. As I said WSMH is a movie I am very fond of, and enjoy watching even if I am not a big fan of Meg Ryan.
slag
Enjoyed both WHMS and SiS. I was just today describing to a friend that scene in SiS where Tom Hanks cuts in front of the cab line when he lands in NYC, and in the midst of the ensuing chaos suddenly shouts, “Money!”, and proceeds to give everybody some cash so that they return to business as usual. I lived that scene yesterday afternoon (in a very different context), and immediately thought to myself, “What does this situation remind me of?…Oh yeah…that scene in Sleepless in Seattle!” and then laughed out loud. Thanks, Nora Ephron, for making my life seem funny to me!
Thymezone
Great post. Did I ever mention what a really fun guy you sound like?
WHMS is a fucking classic, dude. Get a clue.
hamletta
@Nicole: Exactly.
Watching Cary Grant lean his chair back in The Awful Truth and show his ass never fails to crack me up.
And of course his ex-wife, Irene Dunne, needs to prostitute herself with a cheesy nightclub act where she sings about The Wind, and air jets blow her clothes off!
And nobody ever wants to marry Ralph Bellamy, God bless ’im.
SFAW
Careful – I think he’s a mite touchy about this.
DougJ
@SFAW:
Now that you two have weighed in, I’ll just wait to hear what Clime Acts and matoko-chan have to say.
Yutsano
@DougJ: That was harsh dude. Funny, but harsh.
SFAW
I guess I’m supposed to be cut to the quick or something.
Be a good boy and let me know if you figure out what was going on in #55. Fortunately, I will not be grading your response.
Nellcote
You’ve never seen Silkwood? Shame on you.
RIP Norah Ephron
joes527
@Jewish Steel: This.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@DougJ: Haven’t they both been banned?
SFAW
Oh, is THAT what his comment was about? (Of course, maybe it wasn’t a veiled threat.) I guess if I had known they were banned, I woulda picked up on that one earlier. Thanks for the info, Nostra.
DougJ
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
I think they just comment under different names than they used to.
MaryRC
@Schlemizel: “You’ve Got Mail” was more of a remake than a rip-off of “The Shop Around the Corner” since the author of the original play that inspired both movies was credited as one of its writers. It is very similar, the scene where she’s waiting for him in the coffee shop is especially close to the original scene in TSATC. “You’ve Got Mail” didn’t have half the charm of TSATC, though, and I blame Meg Ryan and her footie pyjamas for that. What a pill she was.
Yutsano
@DougJ: If so they’re hiding very well. And several posts lately have been personal bugaboos for one or the other. Subtle, they ain’t.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Yutsano: That’s what I was thinking too.
Amir Khalid
@DougJ:
m_c is back? But no one has called me a “maftoon” lately.
canadian shield
The best movie Andie McDowell was in was groundhog day IMHO. It was such a good movie, it made her seem like a good actress…
Yutsano
@Amir Khalid: MAFTOON!!
(feel wuved now?)
Irony Abounds
Frankly, imho, WHMS is a movie that people who want to appear intellectual love to hate because it was popular, and well, if something is popular it must be low brow and therefore an intellectual must hate it. It was a great movie, and there is nothing wrong with a good Romantic Comedy. Everything has its place, and if you want 2 hours of escapism from real life, there is nothing wrong with that. As for Meg Ryan, I’ve never understood why it is so terrible to be a “good girl.” Do we really want our women to be full of angst, hard as nails and slutty? Attractive, not stupid (neither Sally nor her character in SiS were lacking in intelligence), genuine and willing to love and be loved doesn’t strike me as bad combination in a wife. Of course, she felt cursed by the characterization and had to start playing more “complex” roles, including the obligatory sexually out there misfit, and promptly fell off the map.
Kris Collins
OK, I can understand the antipathy to both Ryan and Crystal, they are both annoyingly mannered in their performances and limited in talent. (Full disclosure: I like both actors.) Nevertheless, WHMS, is a great, classic RomCom, primarily because of Ephron’s brilliant writing, but also bwcause of Reiner’s direction and fabulous supporting performances by Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby. Frankly, I think it’s pretty obnoxious to rant against a movie you’ve never seen and compare it to films.you aparrently know nothing abit,
. (A rip-off of “Manhattan?” Are you effing kidding me? Your friends must have thought you were either insane or an idiot.)
Anyway, Ephron was enormously talented and she will be greatly missed. My condolences to her husband, the also brilliant Nicholas Pileggi and the rest
Of her family and loved ones.
Kris Collins
PS: Please forgive.and ignore the weird typos I’m writing this on my Android phone and I can’t even begin to explain how nearly impossible that is.
bend
My dad quit When Harry Met Sally during rehearsals and my mother never forgave him.
Sigh.
You could have lied about seeing Richard Dreyfuss and Meg Ryan getting together.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Lawrence O’Donnell had a nice tribute to Ephron this evening.
Schlemizel
@noodler: I didn’t know that was hers! I love that movie. Its stupid and silly and Steve Martin leaves toothmarks all over the scenery but it is fun to watch. May have to dash over to IMDB to see what else she did I don’t know about.
SFAW
Now, now, be nice to him. He was auditioning for the latter-day version of “I Heard That Was Good/Bad”, and this was his screen test (so to speak).
“All right, Mr.
DeMilleCole, I’m ready for my close-up”Schlemizel
@Jewish Steel: I think Joe Vs the Volcano is one of those “its so bad its good” movies. But you are right about the first 15 minutes. That who bit about Joe dragging himself into the miserable office it fabulous.
daize
@MattR: Now you just need somewhere to go and be surly.
bemused
People are pretty harsh on Meg Ryan and Andie MacDowell, (Groundhog Day, Michael, Crush) Sometimes light movies with some very funny scenes are just the ticket when one’s brain is tired after a long, much too serious week. I’m not a huge Tom Hanks fan but The Money Pit is a favorite old movie at our house as well as Funny Farm. Whatever happened to Madolyn Smith who was in Funny Farm? I don’t recall her from any other movies.
KXB
I was a teenager when WHMS came out. I enjoyed it then, and still enjoy it. What struck for me is the idea that it can take years to fall in love. Love at first sight never made sense to me then, and makes even less sense now. You can have instant attraction, but I always found those feelings were not returned in kind. I also liked My Blue Heaven – where have you gone Rick Moranis.
BTW – I graduated from the University of Chicago, and from my experience, few of the women looked like Meg Ryan. The faux-intellectualism of Billy Crystal’s character was on full display by most of the men, and I would have to include myself in that bunch.
KXB
BTW – I graduated from the University of Chicago, and from my experience, few of the women looked like Meg Ryan. The faux-intellectualism of Billy Crystal’s character was on full display by most of the men, and I would have to include myself in that bunch.
mellowjohn
@noodler: “my blue heaven” makes a great double feature with “goodfellas” – based on husband #3’s book “wiseguys.”
divF
Sad news – I’ve been a fan of Ephron’s ever since I read “Wallflower at the Orgy”. The Carrie Fisher quote in the WaPo obit was particularly touching. Fisher and Bruno Kirby are the ones whose lines in WHMS Ms. divF and I always quote to each other (“tell me I’ll never have to be out there again”). “Julie and Julia” was a pitch-perfect tribute to Julia. But I think that she also resonated with Julie as an echo of herself as a young woman striving to be a writer.
JR in WV
D J,
Have you ever seen Harry Connick in person? One of his tours was the last show I took my Dad to, and he loved it so much, because it was a great “big band” production with soloists cutting each other, horn players swinging their instruments, right out of a 1947 (or ’37) nightclub.
Frankly, I thought Frank was overrated, especially the last 40 years of his singing career. And he was a despicable character, a wannabe mobster, throwing his weight around, acting like a bully anytime he wasn’t on stage.
Harry, on the other hand, is a great guy, good singer, plays piano very well while he’s singing, which Frank couldn’t do at all.
So there!
JR
MaryRC
@bemused: In fairness to Ryan, she was good in WHMS and SIS. But in You’ve Got Mail, her character was insufferably twee, even to the way that she dressed, and I think both Ephron and Ryan have to be blamed for that. When Ryan’s character says “I love daisies, they’re the friendliest flower”, I’m reminded of P.J. Wodehouse’s Madeleine Bassett who says things like the stars are God’s daisy chain, or every time a fairy blows its nose a baby is born.
Splitting Image
The odd thing about reading all of the negative comments about Crystal and Ryan (and MacDowell) is that the writers seem to be completely failing to appreciate why Ephron was so well respected.
It’s because of the fact that When Harry Met Sally had such a great script (i.e. the one Nora Ephron wrote) that two lead actors who were at best acquired tastes seemed to stand out so well. Andie MacDowell benefited the same way In Groundhog Day.
I used to love When Harry Met Sally, and I watched it again recently for the first time in quite a few years. I didn’t enjoy it as much because I remembered so many scenes line by line that it made the experience a little weird. I get the same feeling watching Monty Python movies. But it is still a terrific picker-upper.
I disagree that it is a rip-off of Manhattan, or Annie Hall. It’s probably more accurate, if unkind, to describe it as a pastiche of several Woody Allen films. His influence is obvious, but Ephron had a different collection of neuroses than Allen did. And other commenters are correct that it helped spark a rom-com revival and it has been imitated so many times since it was released that it’s hard to appreciate how original it seemed at the time.
HyperIon
I first discovered Ephron in the pages of Esquire in the late 60s. At least that’s when I think “The, Uh, Problem” was published. It was her response to a newly introduced product: vaginal deodorants. That was a long time ago.
Oh, and obviously DougJ, your post is more confirmation of my already deeply held opinion that you’re an idiot. How nice that others are noticing! :=)
YellowJournalism
No clue she had been ill. SiS is the soft fuzzy blanket of movies. And I truly mean that in a good way. When Harry Met Sally is most likely the better movie but not my favorite. You’ve Got Mail isn’t the disaster many make it out to be (Not here; most have been pretty fair and accurate.), but I really wish it had been a little less “Yay for the big corporation!” and all.
And Steve Martin in My Blue Heaven is hilarious.
Vincent ‘Vinnie’ Antonelli: Arugula. I haven’t had arugula in six weeks.
Supermarket Manager: What’s that?
Vincent ‘Vinnie’ Antonelli: It’s a vegetable.
Okay, that quote isn’t funny, but it does make think of the BJ Foodies!