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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Excellent Links / Monday Evening Open Thread: Rachel Maddow, Thinking Person

Monday Evening Open Thread: Rachel Maddow, Thinking Person

by Anne Laurie|  July 2, 20125:55 pm| 59 Comments

This post is in: Excellent Links, Open Threads, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome

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Via Charlie Pierce, Ben Wallace-Wells at Rolling Stone has a good read on “Rachel Maddow’s Quiet War“:

… The morning after the correspondents dinner, with most of the capital hungover, Maddow shows up to work, as a panelist on Meet the Press. Appearing alongside her is Alex Castellanos, a Republican media consultant who served both George W. Bush and Mitt Romney, an embodiment of the clubby, insider pundit culture that Maddow abhors. When she begins to talk about gender disparity in pay – “Women in this country still make 77 cents on the dollar for what men make” – the genteel Castellanos, a master of the form, simply denies that this is true. Women in the workforce, he insists, make just as much as men; liberals are just “manufacturing a political crisis.”

Maddow knows immediately that Castellanos is lying to the audience… “This hasn’t just been sold to Alex by someone briefing him on the subject,” she thinks to herself. “This is something that has actually been sold to Republicans – this is a vision of Republican World.”

The tricky part is knowing what to do about the lie. Chris Matthews would erupt in thunderous outrage; Keith Olbermann would dissolve into a knowing sneer. But Maddow’s skills are different: She strives not for the expression of political anger but for its suppression, to distance herself from the partisan debate rather than engage it, to steward progressive fury into a world of certainty, of charts, graphs, statistics, a real world that matters and that the political debate can’t corrupt. Maddow’s producers say, unexpectedly, that the closest analog for her style as a broadcaster is Glenn Beck, whose abilities as a performer she very much admires. Though their worldviews could not be more different, Maddow and Beck both attempt to pull off a similar trick: to reflect and redirect their audience’s rage at politics without succumbing to it. What Maddow is trying to build is a different channel for liberal anger, an outsider’s channel, one that steers the viewer’s attention away from the theater of politics and toward the exercise of power, which is to say toward policy. On-air, like Beck, she is almost relentlessly cheerful. “Anger is like sugar in a cocktail,” Maddow tells me. “I’d rather have none at all than a grain too much.”

But this time, apparently, she lets a grain too much show. “Rachel, I love how passionate you are,” Castellanos says, coolly pivoting the argument from the facts to her barely contained fury.

“That’s really condescending,” Maddow replies.

This is Maddow’s battle with television: to try to bring a different, more objective model of inquiry to a world of political talking points. Later that week, conferring with her staff, Maddow recounts what had actually flickered across her mind in that instant with Castellanos. “I wanted to say, ‘Are you saying I’m cute when I’m angry?'” she recalls. “But I didn’t, because when you’re a woman on television, you can’t even say the word angry.”

[My emphasis.] Apart from the never-ending battle, what’s on the agenda for the evening?

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Reader Interactions

59Comments

  1. 1.

    Mino

    July 2, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    Since this is an open thread, perhaps someone can help me. I’m seeing ads for free online public school classes, with school supplies all provided. Charter is never mentioned. What’s the deal on this? Bait and switch or is it legit? Who is running this?

  2. 2.

    pragmatism

    July 2, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    i’m seeing ads for the La Quinta Inn & Suites. An oldie but goodie joke: La Quinta means “behind the Denny’s” in spanish.

  3. 3.

    lamh35

    July 2, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    MEDIA ALERT: If anyone missed the Women’s USA Gymnastics Olympic Trials, it is now on NBCSP digital channel. Check ur tv guide.

  4. 4.

    BGinCHI

    July 2, 2012 at 6:08 pm

    Rachel might also have pivoted and did what Jon Stewart did that time on Crossfire: make everyone take a step back and account for how the medium is the problem with the message. Those Sunday shows are wired for the status quo. So of course they favor Republicans, but what’s worse is that they favor arguments that are short on argument, and even shorter on facts and the careful analysis that takes time.

    She was not just frustrated by Castellanos the dick. She was frustrated that she was on a show that has no self-consciousness of what it is part of.

  5. 5.

    lamh35

    July 2, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    Just got some bad news from my fam in NOLA and just wanted to post some food for thought that’s on my mind and it kinda correlates with the whole healthcare discussion we are having in the wake of the ACA decision by SCOTUS

    Man, one minute you have beaucoup time to do any and everything you want, so you push this back, and postpone that…you can always do it tomorrow but life is unpredictable. The good health you have today can be gone tomorrow and time is up. We all know that life is short, but sometimes I think we forget that life is just as unpredictable as it is short. The saying “don’t put off for tomorrow what you can do today” is so true.

  6. 6.

    Valdivia

    July 2, 2012 at 6:10 pm

    I just don’t see the Beck comparison at all. But maybe that’s just me.

  7. 7.

    Trentrunner

    July 2, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    I would just like to remind the audience that Jon Stewart was every bit as condescending to Rachel Maddow in her interview with him as Alex Castellanos was to her on MTP.

    Also, Andrew Breitbart is still dead.

  8. 8.

    Derelict

    July 2, 2012 at 6:13 pm

    On the agenda this evening: Pork Chops!

  9. 9.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    July 2, 2012 at 6:14 pm

    @lamh35: We (most of us) forget that all too often, I suspect. Good thoughts for you and your family.

  10. 10.

    dr. bloor

    July 2, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Kind of an interesting dilemma she was faced with: is it possible to rip an asshole a new asshole?

  11. 11.

    PeakVT

    July 2, 2012 at 6:17 pm

    Somewhat related to Mino’s question, Felix Salmon posted an interesting riff on the education discussion at the Aspen “Ideas” Festival.

  12. 12.

    Valdivia

    July 2, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    @lamh35:

    important to keep in mind always–live every day as if it counts. hope things are ok.

  13. 13.

    sb

    July 2, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    @Trentrunner: Date or link? Not saying it didn’t happen but she’s been on several times and it would save me a search. Or, you could just say, “find it your own damn self” in which case, yeah, I’d give it a shot. :)

  14. 14.

    sb

    July 2, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @Trentrunner: Date or link? Not saying it didn’t happen but she’s been on several times and it would save me a search. Or, you could just say, “find it your own damn self” in which case, yeah, I’d give it a shot. :)

  15. 15.

    SiubhanDuinne

    July 2, 2012 at 6:30 pm

    @lamh35:

    Thinking of you and your NOLA family.

  16. 16.

    Some Loser

    July 2, 2012 at 6:32 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    Jon was being condescending to Maddow? Why? I know he has become a “Both-Sides-Do-It” professional left, but he actually engaged her rudely?

  17. 17.

    jl

    July 2, 2012 at 6:33 pm

    I can see the Beck comparison in terms of attitude and delivery. Beck stays civil, he cares, he shows he cares, he does ‘thoughtful’, he jokes. He is concerned, and fearful for all us, including his misguided opponents. Beck emits symbols and sounds that appear to be facts data and numbers.

    Beck cares about his audience, wants to empower them, enable them to find, learn, think and reason for themselves.

    And, diagarams, people, diagrams. Arrows.

    If only Beck were not insane, or a cynical manipulator, or both.

    Beck allows the audience to see him struggling with the horror, fighting with himself to keep his wits, his temper, his civility. We witness Beck struggling with himself to remember, his evil and/or misguidd oppponents are human too, even though they are attempting to lead us all to destruction.

    I can see how Maddow would admire the presentation and persona of Beck, if not the substance.

    Can’t happen but I would love to see Maddow give a presntation on the Beck school of reactionary agitprop. Her take on his fake crying style (which I do not think is something Maddow admires or would try) would be interesting.

    If Maddow does in fact admire Beck’s presentation style, I have no problem with it, as long as she keeps the facty stuff on the up and up.

  18. 18.

    Alison

    July 2, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    @Some Loser: I’m thinking this might be referring to the interview she did of Jon not long after his stupid DC rally thing…in which he did do quite a bit of whiny, hispter ennui “I’m so above it” malarkey, IIRC…

  19. 19.

    jl

    July 2, 2012 at 6:41 pm

    @Valdivia:

    thanks for reminding me. I forgot to say I have not had the stomach to watch the guy for years, and only watched clips of his last couple of years on Fox TV.

    I have no idea what he has been doing on the internet.

    And from the clips of his radio show, it is more aggressive than his TV show.

    Sorry if I gave the impression I know what Beck is doing now. But I could not resist riffing on the more touchy feely aspects of the Beck School of Crazytalk.

  20. 20.

    Hypatia's Momma

    July 2, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Re-reading Digger.

  21. 21.

    BGinCHI

    July 2, 2012 at 6:43 pm

    Can we get a post on the fucktards at factcheck.org or are we finished calling out those assholes?

    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/factcheckorg-not-swayed-by-obama-letter

    Jesus F Christ.

  22. 22.

    Valdivia

    July 2, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    @jl:

    No worries. I am still in shock just from having gone to his Becknalia here in DC so from that I just can’t see Rachel being anything like him. Grandiose know-it-all and delusional! :)

  23. 23.

    Valdivia

    July 2, 2012 at 6:47 pm

    @BGinCHI:

    I know and this is even more proof that the liars and the aiders and abetters are FactCheck!

  24. 24.

    PurpleGirl

    July 2, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    @lamh35: Whatever happened, lamh35, you have my condolences.

    What’s the old saying: Eat, drink, and merry for tomorrow you may die.

  25. 25.

    jl

    July 2, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    @Valdivia:

    Oh yeah, that was you who reported that out right here in the comments. You are braver than I, and I could pass easy for one those folks, if I were older, cut my hair, and could keep a straight face, and keep my mouth shut.

    Belated thanks for your report.

    Now I feel bad for making fun. I find Beck himself funny, and can see why Maddow would study his style (assuming that is not some inside joke of Pierce’s), but what he tries to get riled up in people is scary, and dangerous. I take that very seriously.

    And I think Beck believes not one word of it. He is a dangerous showman.

  26. 26.

    YellowJournalism

    July 2, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    @jl: I think Beck didn’t used to believe it, but that last year on tv convinced me that he either had a mental break or started believing his own lies.

  27. 27.

    jl

    July 2, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    @BGinCHI:

    Well, gosh, Mitt just had ‘full legal control’. Such awesome responsibility. How could poor corporate Titan Mitt keep track of all that was going on? Consider poor Mr. Dimon.

    Fact check was right to dismiss.

    I like that Obama camp sent out copies to other news organizations, so whenver something blows up in Factcheck’s faces, it will be noticed.

    I also like the fact that Factchesk notes it pissily, as if that were some kind of sneaky and disrespectful thing to do.

    Slight noted noted on my end, Factcheck, thanks, it gave me a chuckle that I needed right now.

  28. 28.

    Hill Dweller

    July 2, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    I would just like to remind the audience that Jon Stewart was every bit as condescending to Rachel Maddow in her interview with him as Alex Castellanos was to her on MTP.

    A ‘better’ example is Stewart’s treatment of Nancy Pelosi last time she was on his show.

  29. 29.

    Valdivia

    July 2, 2012 at 6:58 pm

    @jl:

    I confess I went mostly because I was going to have a first row seat (a friend was doing a big think piece on Beck and got press passes) and because I have long been interested in the intersection of religion and politics. Yet not even that interest prepared me for what that was like. You could feel the hatred buzzing in the crowd, and even more, the way he had guided, fomented it.

    Rachel doesn’t seem to be to have it in her to be a Prophetess. I love that about her. I am deeply suspicious of those promoting utopias, one reason i adore Czelaw Milosz.

  30. 30.

    Hypatia's Momma

    July 2, 2012 at 7:00 pm

    Later this evening, I’ll be draining the water from a can of no-salt-added tuna to give to a neighbor whose cat is dying of liver cancer. He likes tuna-water and isn’t drinking nearly enough right now, so it will be both a nice treat and some badly needed liquid.

    The cat is 9-years old and when my neighbor first got him, weighed 22 pounds. Neighbor got him down to 16 and kept him there for some time and then he was diagnosed with hyper-thyroidism. Now he weighs ~5 pounds and will probably die this week.

    A small reminder for anyone who ever has pet food or medications or other good supplies that they no longer need: Neighbor is going to donate the remaining medications to the group with which he volunteers: Fix Our Ferals. These people are wonderful; they helped me with two cat colonies in dire need of medical care a few years back. Local shelters, some vets, and most rescue groups will generally be happy for the help!

  31. 31.

    scav

    July 2, 2012 at 7:05 pm

    mmm, so now GlaxoSmithKline got a $3bn fine plus guilty plea too, after poor old Barclays, you’d almost think the bureaucracy was creaking back into swing or something. Need to keep those dominoes firmly propped people or the “there’s no need for govt inquiries” becomes, “well, at least a strongly worded meeting or two”.

  32. 32.

    jl

    July 2, 2012 at 7:06 pm

    @Valdivia:

    If the piece was on Beck, it should have been on the intersection of religion, politics and a successful media business model.

    @YellowJournalism:

    The transformation of CNN Beck into Fox Beck, in that amount of time, indicates to me it is money and showbiz for him.

    That he is faker and must maintain kayfabe at all times, the more reason for someone like Maddow to study him closely.

    I was going to say something about what it says about Beck as a person, but don’t feel like going there right now. Need to understand how to control and limit his influence, though.

  33. 33.

    Linda Featheringill

    July 2, 2012 at 7:09 pm

    @lamh35:

    Are you in the process of losing someone, or have you already lost him/her?

    {hug}

  34. 34.

    Maude

    July 2, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    @jl:
    Beck has always done this. He has a pattern. He keeps going until he is over the top.

  35. 35.

    trollhattan

    July 2, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Somehow I can’t envision Rachel aping whatever the liberal version might be of Beck’s Woodrow Wilson rant, ending with “Oooh, I hate that guy!”

    Glenn Beck always reminded me of a Valley Girl, without the mall knowledge.

  36. 36.

    burnspbesq

    July 2, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    @scav:

    Interesting that it’s GSK that ended up getting nailed. It’s hard to think of a big pharma that has never done any off-label marketing. DOJ could probably have gotten any of them.

    Pure speculation on my part, but it may simply be a matter of GSK being unwilling to deal because of a corporate culture thing about believing your stuff doesn’t stink. GSK has a long history of fighting losing battles with both the IRS and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.

  37. 37.

    Yutsano

    July 2, 2012 at 7:20 pm

    @trollhattan: OT: Did you hear Saab might get rescued?

  38. 38.

    The Tragically Flip

    July 2, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    The comparison to Beck was pretty specific to Beck’s happy warrior shtick, not to the content and nature of the information presented.

    Rachel is my go-to response for “both sides r the same” morons. Show me the right wing Rachel Maddow.

  39. 39.

    Ben Franklin

    July 2, 2012 at 7:22 pm

    This is Maddow’s battle with television: to try to bring a different, more objective model of inquiry to a world of political talking points.

    Here’s the problema. That issue will NEVER go away. The attention span of the American Public has been imprinted with the early learning of five 2-minute commercials within 30 minutes of programming.

    Short attention spans are the issue, and that ain’t likely to improve.

  40. 40.

    GxB

    July 2, 2012 at 7:23 pm

    @Valdivia:

    Boy am I with you there… cool, detached, facts, and this whopper: “reflect and redirect their audience’s rage at politics without succumbing to it…”

    The man was weeping on his desk last I saw him…

    Definitely applies to one, but sure as hell not the other.

  41. 41.

    geg6

    July 2, 2012 at 7:27 pm

    Well, I don’t know. Just re-watched the Bill Maher show from a couple of weeks ago when she was on with the Fonzie of Freedom. Her absolute disgust and disdain for him came through quite clearly and she wasn’t smiling.

  42. 42.

    trollhattan

    July 2, 2012 at 7:29 pm

    @Yutsano:

    No, do tell! is this something even newer than the build-electric-cars-with-the-Chinese thing? Basically stopped following them awhile back because it was too complicated and painful, in equal measure.

  43. 43.

    GxB

    July 2, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    @jl: Nope, I’m honestly trying to see the connection but just can’t manage – they both got the ultracon thick rimmed glasses thing going on, beyond that I got nothing.

  44. 44.

    Roger Moore

    July 2, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    @scav:
    It would be nice if fines for this kind of thing were big enough that they couldn’t be covered by cash on hand. If they don’t have to make special provisions for the settlement, it’s either not big enough, or they need to declare a bigger dividend.

  45. 45.

    Yutsano

    July 2, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    @trollhattan: Now it’s a Hong Kong/Japanese consortium that’s interested. Apparently they want to start electric only but eventually bring back the gas-powered cars. And the parts division is now fully owned by Sverige. Very interesting.

  46. 46.

    quannlace

    July 2, 2012 at 7:41 pm

    I love Rachel Maddow. If I only was a les…..and 20 years younger

  47. 47.

    jl

    July 2, 2012 at 7:42 pm

    @GxB:

    I can’t see maddow getting into pumping lead at the shooing range either, but check out the clip in the first page of the article.

    As I was forced to admit that I have not watched Beck recently, and was to some extent riffing to ridicule Beck.

    But, watch an interview with Beck as a guest, and then one of Maddow. I wonder if more similarities in how they want to appeal to the audience would be apparent.

    I will have to check it out myself before I say for sure, but just an idea for now.

  48. 48.

    Bago

    July 2, 2012 at 7:49 pm

    Maddowblog is silly, accurate, and contrite. How can you go wrong?

  49. 49.

    scav

    July 2, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    @Roger Moore: Yep, but I’m a cheap date: I’ll take these too-long-absent-from-our-lives lawsuits and hope they’re the thin end of the wedge. Better than the nothing degrees kelvin we had although still cold. I’m also dumb and mean enough to enjoy the possible fighting among themselves dynamic that might get going with the Schwab lawsuit looking for its pound of flesh Libor / Barclays — a situation that furthermore seems to involve as many as 16 banks, lawsuits on two or three continents and takes place over 5 years, so maybe there’s room for hope that that GSK is only the first to go.

    ETA: Edited because I seemed to have two replies hopelessly jumbled.

  50. 50.

    gbear

    July 2, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    @Ben Franklin:

    Short attention spans are the issue, and that ain’t likely to improve.

    Have you ever noticed how when Rachel wants to make a point on her show, she repeats the same point at least a half-dozen times? She’s aware of the TV viewer’s attention span and makes sure that she pounds the message over and over to get it through. It’s one of the things that bugs me about her show but I know why she’s doing it so it’s OK. It’s one of the things she’s picked up from watching FOX.

  51. 51.

    mike in dc

    July 2, 2012 at 7:56 pm

    Bob Somerby can’t stand her for some reason or other. I guess she hasn’t done enough complaining about the press mistreatment of Gore, maybe.

  52. 52.

    GxB

    July 2, 2012 at 8:25 pm

    @jl: RS flash no worky on my end, but I’ll take your word for it. I guess the reason I find the whole premise of the quoted piece above at once laughable and offensive is that I try to be a substance over form person. I know Rachel and say, Keith Olbermann, have very different deliveries of a similar message and would judge one to be “superior” to another, but I don’t really concern myself with it – I’m more into the message itself.

    The reason I find the comparison offensive is, to analogize, “Barack Obama and Jerry Falwell have so many oratory similarities…” Now on the superficial levels I guess it’s true, BHO does get a ol’ time preacher thing going on from time to time, but I found Falwell to be a loathsome toad, a dishonest charlatan, and a fear-mongering bigoted puke…

    Anyhoo, I’ll try to cut this short, I don’t want to let folks use analogies that leave the reader to draw their own connections, especially when one is admirable, and the other deserves their own circle in Hell. Yeah, yeah, I’m ascribing values to peoples worth, but I’ll stick with my initial assessment – nothing but very cosmetic similarities link Beck and Rachel, and it’s the differences wherein all the pithy substance lies.

  53. 53.

    The Other Chuck

    July 2, 2012 at 8:33 pm

    @jl:

    Beck allows the audience to see him struggling with the horror, fighting with himself to *keep his wits*

    And losing. Horribly. The guy literally did a show with puppets.

  54. 54.

    MariedeGournay

    July 2, 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Don’t worry honey, Freud argued that “ongst” is the price we pay for civilization: and you are so fucking beautifully civilized.

  55. 55.

    Chukwu

    July 2, 2012 at 9:05 pm

    Best part about Rachel Maddow (Apart from her truly incredible and consistent acts of journalism): She loves booze. I want to get rip-roaringly drunk with her off well-made cocktails.

  56. 56.

    tam

    July 2, 2012 at 9:12 pm

    I love Rachel, but what she’s saying is not accurate:

    In 2007, women’s median annual paychecks reflected only 78 cents for every $1.00 earned by men. Specifically for women of color, the gap is even wider: In comparison to men’s dollar, African American women earn only 69 cents and Latinas just 59 cents.*

    I know it’s easier to say 77 or 78 cents for every dollar, but for women of color, it’s much worse, and that needs to be mentioned in these discussions.

    *Source

  57. 57.

    Valdivia

    July 2, 2012 at 9:20 pm

    @GxB:

    very late but did want to say your comment about substance over form–very much where I am at.

  58. 58.

    A Humble Lurker

    July 2, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    I don’t know how you can compare Beck to Maddow unless you have your head up your ass. You can’t even say they’re both not angry; when was the last time Rachel screamed at someone over the phone for asking an uncomfortable question?

  59. 59.

    brantl

    July 3, 2012 at 8:11 am

    Maddow is really the best we’ve got. Chris Hayes is a close second. They are both treasures.

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