Douthat at the Times:
“…[T]he G.O.P. remains the most plausible institutional vehicle for conservative ideas about health care…”
Sullivan complains that the Obama plan for the most part just took the Republican alternative to Clinton-care and changed the byline with White-Out and a Sharpie. Well, der. Ezra:
Chuck Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, was saying things like “I believe that there is a bipartisan consensus to have individual mandates,” and “individual mandates are more apt to be accepted by a majority of the people in Congress than an employer mandate.”
And it wasn’t just Grassley. A New York Times columnist by the name of Ross Douthat praised Utah Sen. Bob Bennett for “his willingness to co-sponsor a centrist (in a good way!) health care reform bill with the Oregon Democrat Ron Wyden.” That health-care reform bill was the Healthy Americans Act which included, yes, an individual mandate.
Like usual Sullivan’s point misunderstands what ‘conservativism’ means these days. An idea qualifies if and only if it gets in the way of something that Obama wants to do. Lindsey Graham literally went from praising the mandate one week to anathematizing it the next when Obama had the nerve to endorse the stupid thing. In that instant hating on exchanges and the mandate became a conservative poisition, in exactly the same way that the mandate qualified when Nixon and Lindsey Graham marched it out to counter liberal healthcare plans.
So yes, Ginny, Romney HQ really does have all the conservative ideas for healthcare, because whatever idea Obama proposes tomorrow you know the GOP will crap its pants and scream itself hoarse. That, in a nutshell, is conservatism.
pragmatism
the asshole remains the most plausible corporeal vehicle for smelly gasses.
Violet
Exactly. Conservatism = the opposite of anything President Obama supports. I know I’m not the only one who wishes he’d come out in support of breathing.
Valdivia
I didn’t read Sully as complaining, mostly stating the fact that for all the complaining Obama instituted a Republican plan that is now toxic with them so how can they say this now?
But. YMMV.
rlrr
@Violet:
I’m old enough to remember when Conservatism = the opposite of anything President Clinton supports.
CW in LA
@Violet: My hope is that he’ll get on the teevee and implore everyone, “For the good of the nation, and as a personal favor to Michelle and me, please, whatever you do, don’t drown yourselves in vats of raw sewage.”
buckethead
Or, more simply, as Cleek put it long ago:
https://balloon-juice.com/2010/07/17/just-another-failed-ideology/#comment-1893941
“today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today: updated daily.”
Keith
I’d rather take Sully pining for a conservatism that is no longer practiced by the GOP than reading any more of his screeds about how circumcision is “genital mutilation”. And if he resists the urge to change the color scheme on his site to show solidarity with some cause with people who have no idea who he is, all the better.
The Dangerman
Oooh, oooh, oooh! I have it! The conservative idea is to not do jackshit about {insert topic} other than cutting taxes and entitlements.
/horshack
geg6
Well, just got back from seeing O at CMU. Despite almost 100 degree heat, thousands came out, the president was in fighting mode, and the crowd, filled with all ages, was with him. TPaw was holding a counter rally down the street at Soldiers and Sailors Hall. According to a Pitt police officer, a couple dozen white people of late middle to old age showed up. And their rally was inside with air conditioning.
Sorry to go OT and step on your thread Tim.
Valdivia
@Keith:
I so agree. The whole circumcision thing gets on my nerves.
Gin & Tonic
@Keith:
How is that inaccurate?
From Segen’s Medical Dictionary: “The destruction or removal of a portion or the entire external genitalia, which may occur in the context of a crime of passion or as part of a cultural rite”
geg6
@Valdivia:
Yeah, what the hell is that all about? I mean, I don’t care since I don’t and will never have kids, but what’s so awful about it? I don’t know much about it (not having the appendage myself), but I understood that there are pros and cons to both circumcision and not circumcising based on health and hygeine concerns. And unlike female circumcision, it certainly doesn’t make sex painful or every man I’ve ever slept with hid the pain very, very well.
Haydnseek
@rlrr: As am I. Except for gutting welfare. They were cool with that. Also ultra-draconian drug laws. They were cool with those as well. I take your point, but in many ways Clinton was the best friend Repubs ever had.
srv
This is what happens when you steal other peoples’ ideas.
should have just called it Nixoncare and let Teddy spin on it.
rlrr
@Haydnseek:
The “against anything Clinton was for” mindset likely led to 9/11 (terrorism was a Clinton problem, so none of his anti-terrorism initiatives needed to be pursued).
Mr. Longform
Poor Ross can’t stand it when people won’t do what Jesus wants them to do: pull themselves up by their own sandal straps, keep their loaves and fishes to themselves, let the blind and lame figure out how to get along in the free market, and if you can’t help getting too lefty/compassionate, then turn yourself in to the Romans. And you really should nail yourself to the cross, you lazy free-loader.
And Sullivan would say “Amen” except for the foreskin part, which come to think of it, shouldn’t the free market require you to cut off your own foreskin, too? What happened to rugged individualism?
trollhattan
@geg6:
Because irony is one of the (many) things Sully doesn’t do, he skirts the fact that (male) circumcision significantly reduces HIV transmission despite being rather chatty about life as an HIV-positive man. Trying to draw parallels with female circumcision is more than a stretch, it’s insulting.
geg6
@Gin & Tonic:
What I find offensive is that he likens it to female genital mutilation. First, female genital mutilation is just another more horrifying way for some sick male cultures to keep women under the complete and utter control of men. And it makes sex without pain pretty much impossible. Circumcision is not about control nor about inflicting pain where there should be pleasure. They are not equivalent.
Tonal Crow
Fixed.
Martin
Well, not really. And if we keep looking at it that way, it’s going to keep looking shitty. But that’s really not true.
There’s a lot of parts to HCR. Most of it is very liberal. The expansion of Medicaid is unbelievably huge and very, very not conservative. A lot of the regulations are very liberal and look like what Clinton proposed. Other parts are borrowed from universal systems around the world. I don’t think the rollbacks on Part C could be considered conservative given that the GOP pushed very hard to get those particular expansions. Nor was the drug price negotiation that the GOP very specifically went after during the Part D expansion.
But HCR is like building an arch – all the pieces need to be there for it to stand. And the most controversial pieces have always been the pay-fors and how to make sure everyone is participating. Those look relatively conservative.
There are also a host of other conservative proposals tossed in because, well, they were good ideas and because the Dems were making a good faith effort to get Republicans on board. Didn’t work, but the ideas aren’t bad ones – for instance the
Death Panelsliving will/POA efforts. And a lot of the ideas really are quite neutral – I don’t know if you’d call the expansion of medical records a particularly liberal or conservative idea. It’s just a good idea that’s been championed by both sides.Jay in Oregon
@Violet:
I kept wishing that the Obama administration would institute a moratorium on the sale of seafood from the Gulf Coast after the Deepwater Horizon spill, because the Tea Party would have had a big ol’ seafood party to just prove him wrong!
Gin & Tonic
@geg6: I never said they were equivalent, and I don’t read Sullivan, so I’m not up on what he’s ranting about.
But I believe in the proper uses of language, and I don’t see what is inaccurate about the technical term when applied to the involuntary surgical removal of a part of a boy’s genitalia.
MattF
I count at least three thread-jacks here in 19 comments (health care->conservatism, conservatism->Sullivan, Sullivan->circumcision). Is this a record?
NonyNony
@rlrr:
That’s not quite true, at least not as I remember it.
Because when Clinton decided that he supported Welfare Reform the Republicans didn’t immediately switch to hating it. They passed it and let him sign it.
And when Clinton decided he supported NAFTA the Republicans didn’t decide to hate it. They passed it and let him sign it too.
In fact, I’m of the opinion that some of Obama’s current problems with Republicans being against anything he’s for – including positions they previously held until quite recently – is directly related to how Clinton operated. Clinton never let the Republicans take credit for anything. He gave them some significant victories on things they’d been fighting for through at least the 1980s if not earlier but he took the credit for them, and that pissed them off royally.
I don’t think that’s even most of the problem that Obama has with the GOP these days (His main problem is that he’s a blackity-black-black-black President and that drives a good-sized chunk of them nuts just by itself, and I think that the massive failure of GWB drove them around the bend as well), but I think it contributes to why they were never able to come to the table and compromise. Any compromise was expected to be viewed as a victory for Obama because that’s how it worked with Clinton – even when the Republicans got what they wanted.
ETA: And what’s REALLY sad/funny about that is that Obama would not have actually worked that way. He’s not Bill Clinton – it would have been in his best interest for a number of reasons to make it appear that Republicans were getting concessions and that he wasn’t completely happy with the final result but that it was “what he could get through a bi-partisan process”. Obama’s not the glory-hound that Clinton is/was.
spongeworthy
I’m sure everybody here’s comfortable believing conservatives were all lined up and gung-ho for an individual mandate until Obama proposed one. The actual story is here:http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/02/09/rick-santorums-1994-alternative-to-the-individual-mandate/
I’ll warn anybody who was considering clicking over that there may be actual facts at the link.
A lot of people are opposed to ObamaCare because they see it as a path to single-payer. Many around the President have said as much. I know single-payer is no curse word here, but to a lot people it’s just going to be another failed entitlement.
A good health care proposal wouldn’t be 2700 pages long, and I think many of you know this. Businesses don’t understand it, but they do fear another albatross, another intrusion.
Violet
@rlrr: Conservatism also = anything Reagan said or did, plus anything they wish he’d said or done. Conservatism essentially equals a pony called Ronald Reagan.
Culture of Truth
It seems like a problem for Obama and progressives, but it’s really a problem for the GOP, because it you follow politics closely, they seem utterly insane, but if you follow it casually, they seem completely crazy.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@geg6:
Well, I do have the appendage, and as the recipient of a circumcision, I am a very satisfied with my aftermarket modification and am quite happy my parents ordered it for me even if I was too young to speak on the subject. I’ve read that the sacrificed portion of skin holds oodles of extra, sensitive nerve endings that supposedly enhance sexual pleasure, but I’m here to tell ya – if sex felt any better than it already does to my foreskin-less self, I don’t think I’d have ever come out of my bedroom as a teenager.
Napoleon
@NonyNony:
There is no doubt that this is true.
trollhattan
@spongeworthy:
What are the first failed entitlements?
Gin & Tonic
@Violet:
Except for all the stuff he said or did which they now disagree with, which goes down the memory hole. Like his SS tax “reforms” of 1983.
trollhattan
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn:
Thread now won.
Ash Can
@Gin & Tonic: If you believe in the proper use of language, then you’ll be mindful of the fact that the term “genital mutilation” has a negative connotation. And if in fact foreskin removal had adverse physical effects, which the word “mutilation” implies, then we’d have a lot of doctors and fathers speaking up in maternity wards to prevent baby boys from being circumcised. As it is, the vast majority not only don’t do this, they consider it a good idea.
Amir Khalid
@geg6:
The WHO (that is, the World Health Organization, not Pete Townsend’s band) recommends circumcision as a hygienic practice that reduces the likelihood of HIV infection for a man’s partner. And, of course, if you’re a devout Jewish or Muslim parent, you don’t get to opt out of circumcising your sons. I do remember my own circumcision (done in a hospital, with local anesthesia) as painful (guess where the local was injected) but not a cause of any emotional trauma.
ETA:
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn: This.
Calouste
Maybe Sullivan is still right about what conservatism means these days. What we do know is that the GOP are no longer conservatives, they are reactionairies.
Omnes Omnibus
@MattF: Don’t forget your meta-jack.
Napoleon
@spongeworthy:
Wingnut alert. A clueless jackass spewing talking points is among us.
You do realize, don’t you, that not only is the way a bill is formatted means there are a lot less words on a page then you would find in a book but because it also has to describe where it is making changes, and in the case of the ACA it was making changes to dozens (hundreds?) of differant chapters of the USC this componded the problem. Only a complete moron judges whether the law is good or not based on its length.
Martin
@spongeworthy:
Of course it’s a path to single payer. But everything is a path to single payer, including doing nothing. Single payer is inevitable. It is the only system that has ever worked.
Ever.
Republicans used to at least acknowledge this – if obliquely – and proposed things like the mandate to provide a graceful path to it without throwing the entire insurance industry on its head.
Napoleon
@trollhattan:
Nice catch. Wasn’t Ted Nugent spewing that same line today in an op-ed piece?
Violet
@Gin & Tonic: That’s why I added this part:
Reagan did it and they now like it? Great!
Reagan did it and they now don’t like it? Ignore it, or claim it was his one mistake in an otherwise glorious, magnificent career.
Reagan didn’t do it and they wish he did? No problem! Either claim he would have been for it or claim he did it and ignore anyone who says he didn’t.
There’s a Reagan solution for everything!
Martin
@Napoleon:
No, he’s right. A good health care proposal would be 100 pages. But a good health care proposal wouldn’t have to worry about propping up a million elements of a failing healthcare system while it worked its way to being a good healthcare system.
PPACA is a remodel, not a rebuild. Rebuilds are clean and straightforward. Remodels are messy, compromised, and half-assed. A good health care proposal would be a rebuild – but there is no political courage to do a rebuild – which is why they pretty much only happen after major catastrophes.
trollhattan
@Napoleon:
Only a complete moron &/or Hermain “3-page-bills” Cain judges whether the law is good or not based on its length.
I realize a Venn diagram will have Herm’s little dot completely enveloped by the complete moron cohort’s REALLY BIG circle.
MikeJ
@spongeworthy:
It should probably be much longer. 2700 pages isn’t really very long, especially when formatted as bills are with very little text on a page.
It’s a hell of a lot easier to get through than Ulysses or even Infinite Jest or Gravity’s Rainbow.
Tim F.
@Martin: The bill has plenty of components, sure. The GOP tried to make an issue out of everything in the bill, plus the length of the bill plus what color pen the president used to sign it. Baloney hysteria about Medicare even won them Congress back. However, the mandate polled well, and someone came up with a legal argument that righting justices could choke down, so that’s the hill they chose to die on. And that most outrageous of components was precisely, exactly what we borrowed from the Republicans.
Patrick Phelan
The boys at Read it and Weep – who had DougJ on their program when they were doing Atlas Shrugged – mentioned this as the Point Guard Fallacy when they were reviewing Glenn Beck’s monkeyshit. That just because it’s shorter doesn’t make it better.
It’s been a while since I’ve listened to their podcast, sadly, but I can quite clearly remember Alex saying that he wants a bill to be as long as it needs to be to address what it’s addressing, and Chris mentioning that he wants the entire tax code to just be an acrostic that, along the side, spells out “T A X E S”.
Chris’s point was satirical. It is sad how many would agree with him.
bemused
@Violet:
Love this.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
“Male genital mutilation” is a bad term for circumcision because it’s both inexact- it could cover anything from circumcision to emasculation- and a dishonest attempt to hook the anti-circumcision goal to attempts to end female genital mutilation. While I don’t necessarily support circumcision, it is a relatively minor procedure that may have some small health benefits and leaves function essentially intact. There is some female genital mutilation that’s about as minor- removal only of the clitoral hood- but it’s the tiny minority. Most FGM is drastic and results in a substantial loss of sexual function, which is one of the goals.
Implicitly comparing the two as part of an anti-circumcision drive is dishonest and belittles the much more severe damage involved in most FGM. It’s classic Andrew Sullivan. Things that affect, or potentially could affect, people like him are a critical national issue. Things that can’t or won’t affect him or people like him are only meaningful if he can somehow hitch his own interests to them.
Napoleon
@Martin:
It would still be significantly longer then what you are saying, but point taken, but that is not his point. It is likely safe to assume that your proposed rebuild is something along the lines of single payor (or at least replace everyone’s insurance with one scheme instead of having a bunch of differant schemes depending on if you get it from your employer, are in the military, are poor, are over 65, etc.)
But its pretty clear that is not what he is suggesting.
Mark S.
What would happen if we spiked Douthat’s coffee with truth serum?
Haydnseek
@rlrr: I absolutely agree. They intentionally disregarded intel from the Clinton administration that was later found to be quite credible, but because it came from his people, it was shitcanned, because after all, we can never do anything that might be seen as a win for the Dems. I merely pointed out a few instances in which the results of “triangulation” fucked over tens of thousands of people.
Violet
@Martin:
Several European countries have different systems. People can choose from among a wide variety of plans from various health insurance companies. The catch is that the companies are heavily regulated so seem to operate more like utilities of old than for-profit corporations like we have today. The Netherlands has this system and it’s been rated the best health care system in Europe for the past several years.
Amir Khalid
@spongeworthy:
It was mentioned at the time that, despite that daunting page count, the draft PPACA had a lower word count than Harry Potter and The Order of The Phoenix. Republican legislators could surely take the time to read and understand important legislation — a critical part of their job.
Martin
@Tim F.:
Indeed. Just as an added spin to the whole debate, the mandate was one of the larger disagreements between Clinton and Obama during the debate. For all we know the opposition to the mandate is just Clinton-Derangement-Syndrome 2.0. Obama’s attitude was that if you make access to health insurance easy enough, people will just buy it. There’s a bit of truth to that, but it’d still cause a LOT of people to opt out. People are often just plain stupid.
Gin & Tonic
@Ash Can: “Vast majority”? According to the aforementioned WHO, the global prevalence is below 30%. In most of Europe it is well under 20%, in Scandinavia mostly in single-digit percentages.
Martin
Obama death hugs old white lady!
Grab your gun everyone!
Peregrinus
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn:
I also have the appendage – in my case, while I could speak for it, there were no cons presented that might make me decide against the operation, as I was eight years old at the time.
Unlike in your case, those oodles of nerve endings may have been necessary. I’m told there’s a chance the operation may have been botched, in the sense that it seems to have made the appendage in question fairly insensitive – but I think part of that is that it was done in Puerto Rico, and even people who know better seem to think that it’s tantamount to getting it done in a half-pitched tent in the marshiest reaches of the Louisiana bayou. In the middle of a hurricane.
So I am somewhat sensitive to the argument that circumcision can be harmful, if not done properly, and I don’t necessarily agree with it being done involuntarily – more men are speaking out about it, though not exactly a sizable bloc – but it’s certainly not comparable to female genital mutilation.
spongeworthy
@Martin: I think by “everything”, you mean “anything my friends and I would consider”.
In fact, if you follow the link in my original comment, you’d see there were several proposals that didn’t move us toward single-payer.
And when you say single payer is the only thing that works, a lot of people think of second-rate nationlized health systems that do no tprovide the level of care and the outcomes that productive members of society feel they earned. Until that can be addressed, you’re going to meet a lot of resistance to “the only system that works”.
Remember, 35% tops call themselves “conservative”. Close to 60% hate Obamacare. It may just be that these non-conservative skeptics are afraid of another failed entitlement that cheats them out of quality care.
Martin
@Violet: If you regulate it to the point that it resembles single payer, then it’s effectively single payer. I’m not saying that system won’t work in the US (and it probably will have to work given the political costs) but you’re going to wind up more or less in the same place, with more or less the same assaults on liberty and death panels and whatever other bullshit the paranoid right want to cook up.
Culture of Truth
The GOP has gone so round the bend of reality that their strongest argument is “under Obama’s plan people COULD GET SICK AND DIE IS THAT WHAT YOUR WANT??!!?!11?”
TooManyJens
@spongeworthy:
a) [citation needed]
b) How many of the people who oppose it do so because of fictional provisions that they think are in the bill, like death panels and abortion funding?
c) How many of the people who oppose it do so because they want something like single-payer, not anything the GOP might have to offer?
Napoleon
@spongeworthy:
Funny but the vast majority of those systems have better health outcomes then in the US. That is just a fact notwithstanding the propaganda piece you link to.
Martin
@spongeworthy:
No, by everything I mean everything.
Health care is a non-competitive market by it’s very definition and structure. It cannot ever be made competitive at the most fundamental level, which is Medicare A hospitalization/major medical. We already have the mandate that killed once and for all any notion that competition was possible and it was Reagan that pushed it through.
You can have competition above that level – at the level of Medicare B Medical Insurance, and lots of other countries have that, but at the most basic level – the level that you have to provide care to people who themselves have no ability to participate in the market – there is no alternative to either single payer or something so closely resembling single payer that you might as well call it single payer.
Haydnseek
@spongeworthy: Right. The same way it’s “failed” in every country that has adopted it. Citizens of those blighted lands can barely contain their amazement that we have the system we do. It’s capital punishment on a grand scale, and you don’t even need to commit a capital crime to suffer the death penalty! Brilliant!
spongeworthy
@Napoleon: Actually it is exactly what I was saying, which is why I suggested that people here (some) would agree. I’m sure we’d disagree what direction that 100 page bill would take us, but either way, he’s nailed my point better than I could have.
The 2700 pages does frighten business. They’ll need lawyers to read the damned thing and they’ll need lawyers to CYA. That’s only good business for lawyers.
Regardless of which direction this fabled 100-page overhaul would take us, at least those doing the hiring and building and growing could know and understand what they were getting themslves into. I think it’s shameful that some of you can actually convince yourselves otherwise.
Gin & Tonic
@spongeworthy:
As opposed to the moochers, who should just sit at home and die.
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Well
The Order of The Phoenixis not exactly svelte, and I’m willing to bet that its readability index is radically higher than the PPACA*. Besides, the Republicans didn’t really need to read it in order to decide whether to vote for it; just knowing that the Democratslikedacceptedtolerated it was enough proof that it was completely unacceptable.*I will refrain from comparing the maturity level of the average Harry Potter reader to that of the Republican Caucus.
Napoleon
@spongeworthy:
Really, because 2 polls have come out in the last several days showing support for the law reaching around the 50% mark.
Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads
@spongeworthy:
Except to all the people who use it that would have stayed sick or injured or worse without it.
No? So what is the acceptable page limit? And can just one of you short-attention-span semi-literate wingnut jack-asses explain why many pages=worst thing ever?
Businesses are already seeing lower rates. Bet they hate that way more than the double-digit yearly increases in rates that have become the norm.
Martin
@spongeworthy:
All change frightens business. All of it. Whether it helps them or hurts them, it changes the rules of the game, and they don’t know where that leads. Its pointless to focus on the point that it frightens them when everything frightens them.
Redshift
@spongeworthy:
Really? Care to provide a link? I mean, if it’s been said by “many” such people, that shouldn’t be hard. I know there are Democrats who have expressed that hope, but people “around the president”?
If you mean “failed” in the same way as the “failed stimulus,” i.e. declared a failure by a conservative disinformation campaign, despite any facts to the contrary, then I would agree.
What is the significance of the number of words? Can you tell me how many words are in any other major law? Why do you think that a major overhaul of a significant area where there are already numerous government programs and regulations should take a small number of words?
The assumption that in our heart of hearts, many of us must agree with you already on that point is particularly special.
And your statement about businesses is yet another ludicrously broad assertion without evidence. Based on surveys I’ve read about, there’s a wide variety of opinion. Sure, they’d like nothing to change about how they have to deal with health care, but that’s not an option; dealing with health insurance companies has been getting worse and more expensive for decades and would continue to do so without intervention.
I grew up in the DC area. Whenever any issue comes before Congress, you’ll see ads from some business group or another screaming that voting the wrong way will destroy their businesses and do great harm to the country. And you know what? It never does. If there are business owners moaning about a change, the only conclusion you can reliably draw from that is that something is changing that affects businesses.
danielx
And which conservative ideas about health care would these be, precisely, aside from letting poor people die and denying coverage to those with pre-existing conditions?
Fuck Ross Douthat. Why? Because fuck him, that’s why.
Clearly the heat is making me even more cranky towards conservative pundit horseshit than usual, and that takes some doing.
Haydnseek
@Gin & Tonic: Thank you. Say what you want about Ronnie, but the list of policies he advocated that make present-day wing nut heads explode is quite long. He wouldn’t last two weeks in the current Repub primary process. And yet they continue to venerate him. Go figure.
TooManyJens
@Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads:
How many pages does it take to write, “Free Markets, Bitches!”?
Ash Can
@spongeworthy: You do realize that your link leads to a writer at Forbes who has, in fact, documented in great detail the fact that Republicans have a long history of supporting the individual mandate, right? Or do you not consider Republicans in general to be conservative?
Also, if you knew anything about how laws are written, you would understand that the manner in which they are written needs to be exact, hence their wordiness. And laws that make bigger changes accordingly incorporate more words. In other words, damn right a major piece of legislation needs to be 2700 pages long. If a politician or bureaucrat doesn’t feel like reading a bill that long s/he should find another line of work. And if an employer or insurance professional is too lazy to look the bill up on the White House web site and get the synopsis, then s/he shouldn’t be in business.
spongeworthy
@Napoleon: Thing is, what you call a fact is not really a fact. Every study that doesn’t have us in the top 5 that I have ever seen uses “access to care”–by which they mean “free”–as a measuring stick. And they use infant mortality, which is measured here far more stringently than elsewhere.
When outcomes are measured, we always do quite well. What’s more, nobody who’s ever been in a European hospital thinks, “Well, this is about as good as it gets.” No, Sloan-Kettering is about as good as it gets. Cleveland Clinic is about as good as it gets. Americans feel they ought to be able to go to the Mayo if they can swing it, and socialized medicine means no more Mayo as we know it.
trollhattan
@TooManyJens:
One super-awesome cocktail napkin.
trollhattan
@spongeworthy:
You’ll have a lot of fun proving this one. Putz.
TooManyJens
@Redshift:
The hell they would. How many business owners actually think that they way they deal with health care now is ideal? Whether or not they think the ACA is the right change, I think most of them know that something has to give.
spongeworthy
@Gin & Tonic: You know, that’s really your problem, not mine. I don’t have to go out and sell a huge entitlement that says everybody gets the same healthcare, regardless of whether they are moochers or productive workers. Proponents of single-payer will need to explain why there are no beds at Mayo, no research at S-K, no good doctors practicing at Beth Israel.
Good luck with that.
TooManyJens
@spongeworthy:
Seriously, who TELLS you this shit?
The first person who figures out how to explain to right-wingers that setting a floor does not mean everything is identical should win a goddamn Nobel Prize.
spongeworthy
@Martin: I don’t agree that everything frightens business. I agree that everything you and your friends think up is likely to!
But, even if I concede their timidity, I still wouldn’t ever understand why you’d think it pointless to address the cause of it.
Ash Can
@Gin & Tonic: Fair enough; I was thinking only of the U.S. when I said “vast majority.”
Redshift
@spongeworthy:
No, access to care means affordable, which means you can get it without going bankrupt. Why shouldn’t that be the measuring stick? If you want to leave out everyone here who can’t afford to get treated and compare that to the system in every other major industrialized country that covers everyone, then it might be possible to make our system look good. Consider that a fair comparison seems quite bizarre.
And your statement about infant mortality is pure bullshit. I eagerly await your explanation of more and less “stringent” ways of measuring infant mortality, and links to sources about how in other countries, some infant deaths apparently don’t count.
Gin & Tonic
@spongeworthy: “Nobody”? That’s a tough standard.
My father had advanced cancer care in a top-name Northeastern US teaching hospital. My son had an extraordinarily complex hematological problem in a top-name teaching hospital in a single-payer country while a temporary resident there, including treatments costing many tens of thousands of dollars (which, of course, he did not have to pay.) I saw no difference in the level of care. Absolutely first-rate in both places.
Valdivia
@geg6:
Thank you for that report. Love hearing on the ground news from our people rather than the MSM.
More on the circumcision thing once I’ve had a drink! ;)
Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads
@TooManyJens:
Good point! I think if they had their way, ALL law and regulation pertaining to “the job creators” would be “Do what thou wilt.” And that would fit on one page, too!
Peregrinus
@Ash Can:
Some of which might be due to old state laws. I’m not an expert, but I have heard it mentioned as a cause for infantile circumcision by people here and there, who I don’t think were from the same state.
Redshift
@TooManyJens: Fair enough, I meant more that they’d like everything to be better without any change that might be bad for them. ;-) My point was that businesses always fear change, but they don’t have the option of no change.
danielx
@Gin & Tonic:
Yeah, and all those tax increases which were totally passed without Reagan’s consent or knowledge. They never happened either, since since everybody knows Reagan was canonized for cutting taxes.
smintheus
Speaking of Obama hatred, just get a load of the right wing haters on this Hill report. The story of the poor woman’s death was like catnip to them.
WeeBey
New troll needs better material.
Calouste
@Amir Khalid:
You make the mistake thinking that Republicans in Congress are doing a job rather than holding a sinecure.
Roger Moore
@TooManyJens:
1200.
spongeworthy
You’ll have a lot of fun proving this one. Putz.
Hah! Well, you got me there. I cannot prove this about everybody or much of anybody. It is an opinion, a fairly solidly reality-based one, but just an opinion.
I suppose that, for a lot of you, beating Europeans out of their tax money so you get patched up for free would enhance the experience. Maybe, for those, that would make it as good as it gets!
A lot of very sick people come here when their life is on the line. That tells me–and a lot of others–something, and they don’t want to lose it.
Gin & Tonic
@spongeworthy:
Right, because if single-payer is adopted, all those brilliant researchers at Memorial and those brilliant surgeons at the Hospital for Special Surgery will take their talents and move to … where? Shanghai?
Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads
@spongeworthy:
The “cause of it” is that they can’t seem to nut up and act like the rugged entrepreneurs they always claim to be when they need to justify taking 90% of the pie.
You have a legislative cure for that? Maybe a serious cut in corporate welfare would teach those corporate moochers to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Redshift
@Violet:
Minus anything they’re sure he couldn’t have said or done, because it is now considered un-conservative.
Really the Reagan-worship is just another argument from authority. It’s like Scalia’s “originalism” — insisting he decides based on what the Founders believed, which never amounts to anything other than “I find a justification for what I want to believe, and I win because I say the Founders believed it.” So of course Reagan would support whatever conservatives now believe, so you have to believe it too, because Reagan that’s why.
spongeworthy
@TooManyJens: If there is a proposal under discussion allowing for a many-tiered level of care under single-payer, you should cite it here.
MattR
@spongeworthy:
How would you address their fears? You can’t say that we should come up with a different set of changes that will appease/satisfy the businesses, because we are operating on the premise that any change will scare them.
@spongeworthy: Even if I concede that top end hospitals here are better than in single payer systems, that is insufficient for me to think that single payer systems as a whole are worse than what we have here. Providing A+ care to the top 5% is meaningless if it results in B- (or worse) care for the other 95%. I would much rather have A- care for everyone.
@spongeworthy: If there is a proposal under discussion that would take us to single payer in any fashion, you should cite it heree.
les
Ya know, this is pretty much true. There are no contemporary conservative ideas about health care (at least in the US), and the GOP is the perfect vehicle for empty rhetoric and “philosophy.” That Douthat boy is sharper than I thought…
Redshift
@spongeworthy:
No, only conservative assholes like you would think that “stealing” from someone else would “enhance” the experience of being in the hospital.
pseudonymous in nc
@spongeworthy:
O RLY? Larry Eliison has the world’s biggest yacht. No yacht is as big as the yacht owned by a rich American. That doesn’t make a fucking difference to the Americans who aren’t Larry Ellison.
(Never mind that plenty of European hospitals are among the best in the world.)
trollhattan
@spongeworthy:
As Colbert might put it, you’re self-nailed.
http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-canada-health-care.html
Also, too, quick quiz. You have a sudden illness and fall to the sidewalk. Would you rather be in:
1. Birmingham
2. Vienna
Discuss.
spongeworthy
@Redshift: I have avoided responding to any comments here that aren’t worthy of a response, but I’ll make an exception for you.
If you don’t understand the infant mortality issue in healthcare assessments, you are too ignorant to discuss them. I am not your Google–it is mosty likely on your taskbar. Use it, and quit beclowning yourself in front of your friends here. Many of whom–I guarantee you–read your comment and crginged, thinking, “We’re not all this dumb.”
What’s more, even broke-ass moochers get top-quality care here in the U.S.. If it were not so, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Go learn something!
Ash Can
@spongeworthy: You think you’re using facts, but all you’re doing is fling opinions and assumptions around. You’re trying to peddle an Ayn Rand producers-vs.-moochers world view to a bunch of people who long ago saw through that crap and identified it as the morally bankrupt dystopia hooey it is. If you can start at least providing some links that contain sound evidence for your arguments, we might start taking you seriously. As it is, you’re just making yourself look stupid.
Calouste
@spongeworthy:
You mean like how life expectancy in the US is ranked 30-40th in the world? That kind of outcome?
Redshift
@spongeworthy: If you’re that ignorant, go do some homework rather than demanding other people do it for you. Most if not all single-payer countries have add-on insurance that you can buy, and private facilities that provide additional levels of care (even in Britain, with its government-run NHS.) It is not necessary to deny some citizens basic care in order for you to be able to buy more extensive care.
pseudonymous in nc
@spongeworthy:
That a bunch of Americans are suckered into believing that they can buy miracles? The American Way of Medicine translates “where there’s life, there’s hope” into “where there’s hope, there’s a big fucking bill.”
A friend of my family went from Europe to a hospital in New Jersey for experimental cancer treatment, having remortgaged his house and cashed out his retirement to pay for it. It gave him, at very most, an extra three weeks.
Violet
@spongeworthy:
A lot of Americans go abroad for medical treatment. It’s called medical tourism. I personally know several people who have had various types of medical treatments abroad. The treatment quality is just as good as what they could have gotten here and even factoring in the airfare and hotel accommodation, it’s significantly cheaper.
pragmatism
@spongeworthy:
or they are underinformed or misinformed regarding their choices. like you.
MattR
@spongeworthy:
Bullshit. They get the minimal care they need to get them out of the emergency room.
Here’s my question. If you oppose moochers using your money and resources to get health care, why do you buy into health (or any other non-mandatory) insurance in the first place? If you get back less than you put in, then other moochers are taking advantage of your money to get coverage. If you get back more than you put in, then you are one of those moochers.
Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads
@spongeworthy:
Moron. Obamacare isn’t “socialized medicine.” And Obamacare does not say that doctors can’t accept patients who can pay cash. Those who can afford it can go ahead and buy whatever care they feel like paying for. What Americans feel is that if they are sick, they would like to be able to see a doctor. Your ideal system is “rich people get the best, everyone else can fuck off and die.” Seriously – “moochers” versus “productive workers” when talking about access to healthcare? Fuck you, and fuck your murderous fealty to the 1%.
Only modern conservatives cheer for the death of the uninsured. It doesn’t make you a rugged individualist lover of liberty – it makes you a sociopath.
trollhattan
@Violet:
Yup, including freaking India. World’s Best Healthcare(tm) system evidently includes affordable airline tickets.
gogol's wife
Why are people having a discussion with this person? I have learned a lot from the discussion, though, I’ll admit.
trollhattan
@gogol’s wife:
Practice for my inlaws. Keeps my refutation/tolerance skills honed.
Plus, it’s kinda fun poking at it with a stick.
Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads
@spongeworthy:
A lot of sick Americans cross the border into Canada to get health care. What does that tell you?
Ash Can
P.S. And this fucking POS iPad is making ME look stupid with its fucking goddamned auto-correct and utter lack of word processing functionality. I hate this little goddamned piece of shit, and am kicking myself for posting a comment without first re-reading it carefully.
spongeworthy
@pseudonymous in nc: Hey, again, your problem not mine. You’re the one who has to go out and tell Americans that nobody can have a yacht, no matter how hard they’ve worked.
aimai
@spongeworthy:
How is “infant mortality” measured “more strictly here” than other places? Are we calling more children dead? You are a complete and utter tool. I don’t even know how you get to the end of some of those sentences they are so nonsensical. Infant mortality is a measure of how many children die, within a given population, during they time they are infants. It isn’t “measured differently” in one country than in another.
aimai
AxelFoley
@Napoleon:
He’s able to write complete sentences?
pseudonymous in nc
@spongeworthy:
Your problem, Randroid manchild, is that you think people should just shut up and die. Grow the fuck up.
Valdivia
I can’t believe all these comments later, and no one has mentioned the nym of our troll today. It’s like a mock invitational!
smintheus
@gogol’s wife: People here don’t seem to understand the concept of the ‘troll’.
Gin & Tonic
@spongeworthy:
Please explain how a 57-year-old man with a family history of colon cancer who lost his job three years ago and his UI and COBRA have run out gets a colonoscopy.
Redshift
@spongeworthy:
Fine. I did a quick Google search, which you claim would make your point clear. I found the CIA World Factbook, the WHO, and various other organizations listing infant mortality rates. And I found a Fox Business article and various right-wing blogs declaring that there’s a major problem with the way infant mortality is measured.
So in other words, yet another case of wingnuts crowing that they’ve discovered a fatal flaw that people who deal with health statistics for a living just missed, all because the results don’t match their “we’re number one!” ideology.
In case you haven’t noticed, my “friends” here are cringing at someone’s assertions, and it ain’t me. Your repeated declarations that everyone who disagrees with you really secretly agrees with you are seriously delusional. People here aren’t exactly shy. If you have such a need to have everyone agree with you, you might be better of going back to the wingnut bubble.
spongeworthy
@trollhattan: Who beclowned themselves? From your own source, the Obamacare-loving AARP, that suckfest of entitlement moochers with few equal: I don’t deny that some well-off people might come to the United States for medical care. If I needed a heart or lung transplant, there’s no place I’d rather have it done.
This is what “outcomes” boils down to, and your comment redefines FAIL. Too funny!
Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads
@gogol’s wife:
Speaking just for myself, I am feeling a little bit under the weather today. It is making me cranky, so I am a little less able than usual to ignore the aggressively obnoxious ignorance and cruelty.
spongeworthy
@Violet: Hah! Too funny! They get routine procedures done overseas cheaper. What’s more, they pay for it out of pocket. I’ll bet they look around the recovery room and they don’t see a single native of the country they’re visitng.
Why? Because the natives get government healthcare for free! But they don’t get what the medical tourists get.
Do you think this somehow proves that we need to adopt a foreign system of healthcare?
God help us.
Gin & Tonic
@gogol’s wife:
pseudonymous in nc
Pongo’s just pulling stuff from his ass now. PLONK.
spongeworthy
@Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads: Way to beclown yourself. I had referred to single-payer, not ObamaCare. Your whole rant was wasted on a stupid mistake that you made. FAIL
MattR
@Valdivia: I was going to ask the ladies to evaluate if it was an accurate nym.
@Gin & Tonic:
Marry a Canadian.
@spongeworthy:
I am not surpirsed that you would focus on the anecdote and ignore the actual data.
trollhattan
@spongeworthy:
Now, don’t be distracted by the pretty and informative graphs and slow. down. and. actually. read. the. entire. piece.
There’s a good boy.
spongeworthy
@Calouste: You mean like how life expectancy in the US is ranked 30-40th in the world?
Just an awful effort here. Mortality stats have nothing to do with healthcare outcomes. Mortality stats include inner-city shootouts and hunting accidents, not outcomes from people who enter the HC system
Just terrible.
Cap'n Magic
@spongeworthy: Well all know about the sheikhs and the multi-millionares coming over here to Mayo, Clevland Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Mass General, UCLA, etc etc.
Now how many in the median income ranges from the EU come here? Got a cite? And of those, how many pay out of their own pocket-or have it paid for (like Ontario citizens who cross over the border into Detroit?)
DougW
@Napoleon: TrollWin!
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@spongeworthy: Oh look, Pimples McFrycook thinks he can judge us. Isn’t it adorable?
Good job, kid. Good effort. And next time don’t overcook my hashbrowns or I’m having a talk with your manager, capische?
spongeworthy
@aimai: Yes, it is.
Why won’t any of you who know these people are wrong speak up and spare them–and yourselves–the embarassment? Just something like, “Actually, the Hated Troll is right only about this. Only live births are included in infant mortality stats, and many countries do not call it a live birth if the baby doesn’t make it out of the hospital.”
I’m not much on guilt by association, but at some point…
The Sheriff's A Ni-
MAH GAWD, KING! THAT’S CAP’N TRAGIC’S MUSIC! ITS TROLL ON TROLL COMBAT!
danielx
@spongeworthy:
Dude…give it up. You just gave your whole shtick away with that “moochers or productive workers” labeling. It seems safe to assume that you are one of those folks who thinks the sun shone out of Ayn Rand’s asshole, and also safe to assume that “moochers” are those who are unable to obtain insurance except through ACA or Medicaid, with those on Medicare also being moochers.
And on that ‘entitlement’ business? As far as I’m concerned, I’m ‘entitled’ to Social Security and Medicare in the same way that my heirs would be ‘entitled’ to the proceeds of a life insurance policy upon which I paid the premiums…since I’ve been contributing to both since I started working summers when I was 14 years old.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
They stick their head up their ass, the same way a particular poster here is doing.
spongeworthy
@Redshift: You could have saved a lot of pixels of you had merely written, “I actually did Google it–turns out you’re right. But since I don’t want to believe it, I choose not to.”
Lurker
@MattR:
spongeworthy’s pinning everything on the PPACA’s Waiver for State Innovation, which allows any state to replace Obamacare in 2017 with their own customized system as long as they offer the same level of coverage or better for the same amount of money or less.
Vermont could not wait to jump on single-payer, so Vermont will implement a single-payer system in 2017.
spongeworthy must expect the remaining 49 states to also throw out Obamacare’s Massachusetts-style system in favor of a Canadian-style style system in 2017. (SNARK) I can totally see Louisiana and Florida following Vermont’s lead, here. (END SNARK)
Violet
@spongeworthy:
Then you’d lose. The folks I know were treated in a hospital frequented mostly by people from the country they were visiting. It wasn’t some special medical tourism wing or anything. Just a typical hospital in the country. And much cheaper.
What are you even talking about? This sentence makes no sense.
I think it proves that our medical system is broken and extremely expensive for the average person, if they can afford to engage it at all. I think it also proves that we need to improve our health system so that people can engage it in an affordable manner and not just go to the ER with an emergency only to find out they’ve got stage 4 cancer that was easily treatable had it been caught in a routine check, a check they obviously couldn’t afford to get done.
The whole system we have now is a mess and that’s why people end up going to other countries. If we had affordable quality care here, who would want to go somewhere else?
gogol's wife
@Jebediah, The Cornstarch of the Comment Threads:
Okay, I am trying for a FOURTH time to express sympathy with your comment. I too felt the urge to answer this piece of dirt, but suppressed it.
I now realize that the reason I haven’t been able to post my comment is that I was speculating about the possible identity of the piece of dirt, and the names I was using have been banned. So my comments were marked as spam.
MattR
@danielx: He still hasn’t been able to answer my question about why he has no problem with the moochers who pay $X for health insurance but get more than X dollars of care?
joel hanes
@spongeworthy:
socialized medicine means no more Mayo as we know it.
You must be intending an alternate meaning of “socialized medicine”, one unknown to me.
If you think putting a floor under the health care available to the average citizen will prevent affluent citizens from spending more to get better care, you’re really confused.
If you had said “fully commumunist medicine”, in which the State owns all the health care facilities and directly employs all the health care workers, your statement would be closer to factual.
trollhattan
Damn, this is becoming Rushlike. Reminds me of “She wants so have so much sex….” while sweating and bouncing up and down in his really big chair.
spongeworthy
@Lurker: Or I could have just been taking John Conyers’ word for it: http://www.youdecidepolitics.com/2011/03/15/democrats-obamacare-is-the-platform-for-single-payer/
trollhattan
@AxelFoley:
Admittedly it takes Ted a long time because he only writes with bullets, ala dot matrix printer.
spongeworthy
@MattR: Because it is a dumb question. You seem to have a twisted concept of “insurance”.
Cap'n Magic
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: When it comes to being a troll, spongworthy’s a piker (In the ancient days on CompuServe, we’d call his postings ‘making a strafing run.’)
spongeworthy
@Violet: The last 2 paragraphs I completely agree with.
trollhattan
@gogol’s wife:
It’s got a very familiar patois and persistence and failing grasp of facts and logic, doesn’t it?
Keith
@Gin & Tonic: It is taking a religious ceremoney thousands of years old and reducing it to the perjorative for the sake on inflaming opinion on it. It would be like me calling the Eucharist “drinking some booze”. Semantically correct, but it pisses the hell out of religious adherents, and that is part of Sully’s schtick.
danielx
Okay….enough troll baiting.
spongeworthy
@Cap’n Magic: I have been around here a long time. Years.
Mostly to point and laugh.
I don’t understand why some of you don’t at leat try to temper the others. They make you all look silly. And when I do engage on issues, which is always, the name-calling starts anew. Why, it’s almost as if you guys are using a mechanism to block out unpleasant realities…
MattR
@spongeworthy: But there is no actual proposal from Conyers so you don’t know if it would allow for multi-tiered care on top of a single payer model.
Lurker
@spongeworthy:
Your dream of single-payer for all Americans is only possible if all 50 states use the Waiver for State Innovation to replace Obamacare in 2017 with single-payer systems. Vermont is only one state.
Do you honestly think Florida and Louisiana will choose to create single-payer healthcare systems for their citizens in 2017?
Jebediah
WordPress, stop tossing my fucking comments!
Violet
@spongeworthy: So you agree the system is broken and needs fixing? After all your “We have the best system of healthcare in the world!” comments? Okay….
JPL
When ACA was being debated, Bozo Boortz had a show and spoke about the French folks flying over for him replacements because they had to wait so long for one. Someone mentioned that most hip replacements are covered under Medicare and the next day without skipping a beat, he changed it to knee replacements. Still not good but better. haha
We will always have levels of health care. If you live in them hills in West Virginia, the local hospital is going to have difficulties doing a heart transplant.
MattR
@spongeworthy: If it is so dumb, you should have been able to explain why that is so in the time it took you to tell me it was dumb. So how exactly does my example differ from your scenario?
Cap'n Magic
@spongeworthy: And I’ve been involved in online communities for over 30 years, before there ever was an Internet. BFD.
Now how about an answer to that question I posted to youback a bit?:
Jebediah
@gogol’s wife:
I just re-shortened my nym and that seems to have solved my disappearing comments, although they were fine before, so WTF?
Troll isn’t worth re-typing them. Short version is this guy is a case of arrested adolescence – he doesn’t care about anybody other than himself. He thinks not caring what happens to other people makes him a Rugged Libertyguy rather than a sociopath.
The fact that everybody benefits from a healthier populace doesn’t matter – life is good only if somebody else is suffering.
Ruckus
@Amir Khalid:
At 7yrs old I shared a hospital room(tonsils) with another 7yr old who was having a circumcision. He was all cool with the idea until he came back from surgery at which time he was not at all happy. Too late! Anyway my thought is I’m fine with having had one as an infant, don’t think it would be such a great idea much past 4-5 months old.
The Other Chuck
circumcision and a new troll people won’t leave alone. i’m about to go freelance mohel on you fuckers with a goddam sawzall.
Valdivia
@MattR:
so not. also, too. pretty dated. circa Elaine in Seinfeld.
Ruckus
@Ash Can:
As it is, you’re just making yourself look stupid.
Isn’t that one of the goals?
If not my world view needs to be recalibrated.
Cap'n Magic
@spongeworthy: Wow: for you to have the mendacity to post a link as to one of the architects not only of the HDHP but also of the CFMA is breath-taking. And here I thought _I_ was an idealist….
Ash Can
@The Other Chuck: LOL! My excuse is that it’s too fucking hot out, our air conditioner doesn’t work, and the heat is making me very cranky. However, even I got tired of the troll’s shit after a while.
gogol's wife
@The Other Chuck:
LOL
Cap'n Magic
@The Other Chuck: Careful where you wield that sawzall, bub. You may hit a Republican.
And miss.
Gin & Tonic
@Ash Can: My excuse is I was bored and had to sit at work until 6:15 when the place was practically empty and nothing was happening. Now that I’m home with an ice-cold beverage in my hand, things are looking up.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Really? I’d put Charing Cross, St.Guy’s, or Addenbrooke’s up against any U.S. Hospital like UCSF or Mount Sinai.
As an added bonus, for those U.K. hospitals you won’t get a bill equal to 25%+ of your net worth after visiting if you’re self-employed.
General Stuck
This thread is spongeworthy.
Cap'n Magic
UGH. The New Republic shows that the Ugly American stereotype fits to a T.
Boatman
@spongeworthy: You are now a joke.
Boatman
@spongeworthy: I’m starting to smell Doug.
Dougie, are you trolling us again?
Cap'n Magic
Also, too, for you dog owners.
Turgidson
@spongeworthy:
…not sure if serious…
Terry
@Gin & Tonic: I see both this and Hitchens’ passion about not indoctrinating children religiously as in a similar realm.
Terry
@trollhattan: Disagree. I am a circumcised-at-birth 64-year-old heterosexual man.
I am not angry at my parents. They didn’t do it to my brother, who was born a year later. It’s just that they had a Jewish physician for my infancy, who did it as a matter of course. And, how could I be mad at him? That would be useless.
But, I wish it hadn’t happened. I know it makes some negative differences. And, shouldn’t it be my decision?
I have three adult kids, two women and one man. None of them was mutilated.
NR
Nope. That’s the Democratic party.
A moocher
@spongeworthy: I am very interested in your interesting perspective and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Now go fuck your mother.
SoINeedAName48
BJ’s endless Sullivan bashing is not only tiresome …
It’s sophomoric and damn annoying.
Grow Up and GIVE IT A REST!
Dexter's new approach
The U.S. system does some things really well. Mostly cancer detection/treatment/outcomes and other and things like that. It does poorly in cost, basic care, prevention, access and equality. The things the U.S. does poorly are much more important overall. And most broadly, the general approach (lower taxes, high inequality in all areas of life) has led directly to a less heathy society vs. other nations. A great system couldn’t right that alone, but the ACA is a start. The single payor is where we land in ~10 year I think.
I was (am?) a healthcare industry analyst for 10 years, so I’ve seen a lot of crazy shit. The system is really fucked. (I won’t get in to my personal favorite: the false “innovation” argument, that even the most innovative companies spend much more, often multiples, on marketing than R&D.) Put politely, what Rs refuse to acknowledge is healthcare systems lack most of the basic tenets of a “market” needed to function effectively as a private market. It’s never a buyer and a seller coming together to agree on a price with good information. It’s so far from that it’s actually much closer to the opposite. So more free market is just going to mean higher prices and more/better HC for the well off and less/worse for the rest.
James Gary
@Dexter’s new approach:
Not qualified to comment on your analysis (although it pretty much jibes with what I already knew.) Love the X reference in your user-name, though.
Dexter's new approach
@James Gary: @James Gary:
I love that some here remember that song so well. X, still really good, I actually drank underage in a gritty Chicago ring-suburb bar called Giggy’s Gozy Corner. I looked like I was 15, it was scary, but I still remember it so it was cool I guess.
slightly_peeved
@spongeworthy:
Then you should stop. UNICEF corrects for the difference in reporting, and the US CDC doesn’t think the differences in reporting would have affected the US’s low international ranking in terms of infant mortality.
@Dexter’s new approach:
Funnily enough, this is the one area where the US government funds a lot of research, relative to the rest of the world. So if anything, it’s a further vindication of the role of government funding in improving healthcare.
Haydnseek
@The Other Chuck: We have a winner!