Haaretz has a long and insightful response to Romney’s visit in the form of an open letter. The whole thing is worth a read, but the core of it is that they don’t think that American Jews, who are a traditionally liberal voting bloc, are going to be swayed by Romney’s bromance with Bibi. They do think evangelicals are going to be all over it, but that brings me to another question about the “traditional” Republican voter.
Growing up, I heard a lot of skepticism towards Israel by Main Street Republican types. These are conservative Christians who, as far as I know, had no anti-semitic leanings, but were a bit isolationist and skeptical about the amount of money we were spending in Israel. The sight of Romney outsourcing our foreign policy towards Israel to the Israelis themselves would be a reason for them to at least reconsider their vote for Romney. I don’t know if this type of voter still exists, and I know that it’s a very delicate mission to try to characterize any politicians’ allegiance to Israel as going too far, but isn’t the spectacle of Romney’s “yes sir, yes sir, three bags full” performance in Israel nauseating to someone?
Brian R.
The type of voter you describe might well exist, but most conservative Christians these days are ardent supporters of Israel because they believe that full Jewish control of Jerusalem — and, oh yeah, the subsequent destruction of those same Jews — is an essential precursor to the Rapture.
When Mitt bows and scrapes and promises to give Israel whatever Bibi wants, in these eyes of these voters, it’s not anymore humiliating than making silly noises to a pet to trick them into getting in the car for a trip the vet’s office.
They know who the boss is, or at least who they think it is.
Villago Delenda Est
I think actual conservatives were driven out of the GOP some time back. It’s now all radical jeebofacists, Rand worshipers, and neo-confederates, with a sprinkling of just plain crazies with no identifiable tribal markers.
Valdivia
It’s definitely nauseating to me, and I am probably more pro-Israel than a lot of people on the left here (I am a Rabin/Peres kind fo Pro-Israel person), and it was to a lot of Israelis who think Bibi doesn’t walk on water. The vibe I got was that Israelis felt that Israel was just a prop for his campaign.
PeakVT
In other words, you miss Republicans.
Kevin
Meh. I’m surprised more people aren’t commenting on Mitt saying “Jews are good with money” and praising Israeli socialized medicine. But the day is young.
Schlemizel
There has been a huge sea change over the last 30-40 years on Israel. Don’t discount the amount of real antisemitism amongst the wingnut haters back in the day. I lived in a very Catholic city & there was a very close relationship between hating Jews and hating Israel. Liberals supported Israel in part because they were yet another minority that the majority wanted to crush.
The major change – IMHO – occurred when it became obvious that Israel has no particular interest in peace with its Arab neighbors but instead want to crush them and take their land. In the case of Israel’s nutbag right, all the way to Iran which they believe Yahweh gave to them.
This attitude has cost them the support of many liberals and, since the real position of conservatives is “if liberals are against it we are for it!” they have hopped on with both feet. It helps that this also feeds the mania of the end-time Xianists and the blood lust of the “bomb ’em all ta Hell” wingnuts.
Valdivia
@Kevin:
because of course it is only tyranny when enacted by the usurper kenyan communist!
Mustang Bobby
It’s not a whole lot different than the bowing and scraping the Republican candidates do with the Cuban exile community in Miami: it makes a small group of Hispanics happy and therefore they — the Republicans — think they have the whole Latin vote sewn up. (That doesn’t hold true even in Miami-Dade County.) I doubt Romney’s trip will move the Jewish vote to his column, and most people will see this as major sucking-up to a cranky ally.
liberal
Yeah, but the point here as usual is that while American Jews are very liberal and will not vote for Romney by and large, American Jewish leaders and wealthy individuals are another matter entirely.
liberal
@Schlemizel:
That seems unlikely—that’s been obvious since at least the early 1980s Israeli invasion of Lebanon, which is 30 years ago.
Much more likely is just cultural evolution on the subject, e.g. the printing of The Israeli Lobby, perhaps spurred by the end of the Cold War, plus the Internet which allows those of us who think the US/Israel relationship is nuts to reinforce each other.
NotMax
“Main Street Republican types” are less frequently sighted than the dodo since the Dominionist/teabagger/fundamentalist/neocons/whackadoo elements co-opted the party.
4tehlulz
At least he’s somewhat consistent in his economic worldview:
tl;dr: TEH ARUBZ R LAZY LOL
Hidden Heart
Mistermix:
Short answer: No.
Long answer: You’ll want to read Slacktivist‘s archives for the full story, but evangelical America has been completely captured by the prophetic analysis that started with folks like Salem Kirban and Hal Lindsey and is currently championed by Tim LaHaye. To be skeptical about the wisdom of American support for Israeli militarism would be, for these folks, quite literally to question the word of God about everything. It’s integral.
This is a change, of course. But it’s one that’s been…well, the 1970s really are a generation and more ago now. It’s a done thing, and is very unlikely to change until something topples the entire End Times racket. I’m actually not being flippant when I say that underwriting Israel’s right wing is part of holiness as generally understood in American evangelical Christianity.
Hill Dweller
Willard can act like Bibi’s lapdog, but there is nowhere to go in terms of policy. Sure, he can claim to want to bomb/declare war on Iran, but all Obama has to do is explain that would likely lead to $6.00 a gallon for gas in the US.
People love war until they have to make a personal sacrifice, however small.
Villago Delenda Est
The first time Likud came to power, that’s when the change happened.
Furthermore, the rise of the tiny seriously wacko Religious parties in Israel, which due to the way Israeli elections work, become the ones who make or break coalitions, has resulted in all sorts of changes that many Israelis don’t care much for, but have been rendered powerless to stop.
Then there’s the very disturbing trend on the Israeli right to stop just short of demanding trains take Palestinians to “relocation camps”, to free up land for new Jewish settlements.
NotMax
@4tehlulz
1) The figures Mitt gives are wrong.
2) “economic vitality”, Mitt, is kinda, sorta, ya know, vitally dependent on not having imports, exports and goods and services embargoed.
Todd Dugdale
We hand over the equivalent of $1.5 million every single day to Israel. They are (by far) the largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid.
This ‘staunch ally’ has not militarily participated in any of the conflicts that our country has been involved in over the past 30 years. Israel has, in fact, undermined U.S. foreign policy by supporting (arming and training) the militaries of African and Central American dictators that went too far even for us.
4tehlulz
By the way, I would like to say that I admire Mitt for torching any chance for peace in the region with such efficiency.
Usually, people have to work up a sweat to cause this much destruction. I hope John Bolton’s underwear is OK.
PeakVT
OT: this is crazy: India power outage hits 350m people. The equivalent in the US would be about 90 million.
Judge Crater
Islamaphobia is the ruling emotion for the core Republican voter (and Fox News viewer).
I don’t think they have any real affection or allegiance for Israel or Jews. But, they do enjoy watching Israel kick the Palestinians around and talking tough about Iran. I think they view Israel and its Likud thugs as sort of a “special ops” outpost in the long war against Sharia law and the Muslim Brotherhood, both of which (they believe) are infiltrating our government and our nation.
It’s lizard-brain politics – the nuances of diplomacy and kissing up to Bibi Netanyahu are lost on them.
FormerSwingVoter
@Judge Crater:
Fixed that for ya.
Conservatives are very, very angry, and they basically have no idea why. All conservative media does is tell them why they’re angry.
magurakurin
@Hill Dweller:
six dollars would be cheap
$7.00
$8.00
Not to mention the horrible cost in human life and every other cost associated with what would be a long and bloody war.
This issue alone is reason to do everything possible to ensure that Rmoney never becomes president.
PurpleGirl
@Kevin: From the Times article it seems that he didn’t acknowledge that Israel has a national health plan of some sort. He praised their lower costs.
NotMax
Somewhat dependent on how the term is meant, and whether referring to cumulative aid and/or grants, credits and direct military aid over time.
In raw dollars, Afghanistan is the #1 foreign aid recipient per annum. Israel has not been the largest annual</i recipient since 2004.
MazeDancer
Supporting Isreal is supporting the Apocalypse. It is being a “True Believer”. There are Christianists in the South who “won’t vote for Obama” because he hasn’t visited Jerusalem. Going as a candidate doesn’t count. He has not visited the Holy Land as President, and this they say is an insult to (their kind of) Christianity.
Now this is also a cover for their racism. But it is the kind of thing they all say to each other and everyone agrees it’s terrible.
NotMax
Repost to fix FYWP.
@Todd Dugdale
Somewhat dependent on how the term is meant, and whether referring to cumulative aid and/or grants, credits and direct military aid over time.
In raw dollars, Afghanistan is the #1 foreign aid recipient per annum. Israel has not been the largest annual recipient since 2004.
Donut
@Kevin:
I wonder how they get 10% greater efficiency than us? Their system includes a job killing mandate, strict regulatory oversight, AND death panels. Hmmmmm.
Cassidy
Yeah, like they have ever given a shit about that. Republicans love the troops like Michael Vick loves dogs.
Judge Crater
@FormerSwingVoter: I stand corrected. Islamaphobia is one of the many expressions of their fear and loathing.
chopper
dunno how much shoring up this shit will do with the jeebofascists, they still don’t trust mittens very much. but god, if his saying he’d essentially outsource his mideast foreign policy shop to another government doesn’t turn off a shit-ton of other voters, this grand experiment in democracy is fuckin over.
seriously, when has a candidate ever said that his foreign policy would be determined by a different country’s leader? WTF over.
Maude
@Cassidy:
Vick could be Romney’s VP.
4tehlulz
@Maude: They could sell portable dog fights for your car.
NotMax
@NotMax
Feel compelled to add that when talking about foreign aid dollars to Afghanistan, they are the #1 recipient above and beyond and excluding U.S., and NATO military costs.
amk
Seriously, israel is not going to be on the top of their minds when voters, both left & right, pull the lever on Nov 6th. So all this chickenhawk shit from mitt will get him zilch on the voting front and has only further alienated the ME countries. In short, he fucked up.Yet again.
Schlemizel
@liberal: 1980 – which about when the intent of Israel to dominate rather than co-exist became evident. The Internet, as we think of it now, was not around for another 20 years. While it helped the process was well under way even as early as the 1988 Conventions.
John
The fact that there’s a bunch of crazy pre-millennial dispenssationalists who believe that Israel needs to own Jerusalem in order to bring about the rapture doesn’t really speak to the opinions of the numerous Catholic, mainline protestant, and Mormon Republicans, who believe no such thing. Even many evangelicals don’t really believe in that stuff. I’m unconvinced that the opinions of Tim LaHaye guide the opinions of the rather substantial percentage of the Republican coalition who are not pre-millennial dispensationalists.
ETA: I think the bigger reason for general Republican support for Israel has to do, as others have said, with Islamophobia, and is to a great extent a product of 9/11.
pseudonymous in nc
@NotMax:
Or living under arbitrary military rule that means four-hour waits at checkpoints or having your family olive grove burned down overnight or your water supply contaminated because reasons. Mittens is just tapping into the nasty streak of sentiment that sees Israel as a sunnier version of New Jersey, separated from Teh Ayrab Savages.
@PurpleGirl:
Israel has a German-style system which predates the state: mandatory coverage from one of four health funds, all not-for-profit, highly regulated, funded by taxation and additional grants from the government. There’s guaranteed issue, community rating, the works.
deep
You’re an anti-semite for even suggesting that there is anything wrong with American-Israeli relations.
Steve
The vibe I get is that the whole “evangelicals support Israel because they want to bring on the Rapture” thing is pretty overstated, and maybe even a little insulting.
NotMax
@John
Beg to differ about Jerusalem¹, as those views are part of the founding tenets of their faith and preached from the book just as commonly today as then.
¹unless you refer specifically to the belief in the concept of ‘rapture,’ which gets into divisions between pre-millenialists and post-millenialists
PurpleGirl
@pseudonymous in nc: Thanks for the details. I knew Israel had a government plan of some sort but wasn’t sure of how it worked. I find it ironic that we support Israel’s health scheme and wanted to put in place a government-paid scheme in Iraq while also absolutely denying that we need something similar here at home.
RP
@deep: Grow up. This kind of preemptive argument is pointless and obnoxious.
Frankensteinbeck
@amk:
He did it for financial support. Period. Adelson is willing to pay $100 million for genocide against the Arabs, and Romney will take that money.
@Judge Crater:
I think this is right. Currently conservatives are universally angry, but for a long time they’ve viewed Muslims as the enemy, and Israel is our champion against them.
Chris
@Todd Dugdale:
That’s not undermining, that’s just filling in for us by supporting people we can’t be seen supporting.
Friendly proxies like that were popular in the Cold War. The Soviets used countries like Cuba and Libya for the same effect (e.g. Castro sending troops for fight in Angola).
Sly
@Villago Delenda Est:
They didn’t stop just short of that when it came to Sudanese asylum seekers, who the Israeli right characterized as infiltrators and parasites as they demanded their forced deportation for reasons that scream horrific irony.
RP
@Steve: Yes — there aren’t that many evangelical true believers. Most people on the right support Israel for a much simpler reason: Israel is part of our team, and the Arabs are not. And, of course, a big part of the reason the Arabs are not is racism/islamophobia.
Cacti
@4tehlulz:
Well, for Mormon Jesus to return, the Third Temple has to be built. So that Dome of the Rock thingy will have to go.
Hidden Heart
It’s not a matter of wanting to bring on the Rapture. It’s a matter of believing that this is an obligation laid down in prophecy as surely as Isaiah prophesied the coming of Jesus and Jesus prophesied his own death, resurrection, ascension, and return. Their leaders who believe it have been loud and public for a long time now, and their leaders who don’t believe it have all gone silent or changed their tune.
And although it’s only a matter of doctrine in some evangelical, fundamentalist, or pentacostalist denominations, you’ll find the Left Behind series and its non-fiction counterparts in Catholic, Mormon, and mainstream Protestant bookstores just as in the religion section of chain bookstores of a secular nature. The stuff sells, well, reliably. A lot of Christians who hold their beliefs in a non-fanatical kind of way nonetheless pick this junk up as part of their background culture.
Schlemizel
@Maude: NO! Rmoney should prove his deeply held belief that corporations are people my friend and name Koch Industries as his Veep!
Cassidy
The very existence of that bigoted death cult is an insult to the decent tenets of humanity and civilization. The sooner it dies, the better.
Ash Can
Good fucking grief. Just what this country needs — to be proxy-run by a foreign warmongering despot.
In all seriousness, I have a hard time being like the hair-on-fire types who insist that a so-and-so presidency would out-and-out destroy the country. I don’t think there’s any question that a recognizable America would remain after a Romney presidency. But damn, it would be a nasty hardship for this country, with a lot of people dying at home (from hunger, exposure, pollution, dangerous working conditions, and lack of health care) and abroad (from wars), and millions more pushed into poverty and homelessness. And this is not to mention an even bigger chunk of our future flushed down the porcelain convenience, via defunding of education. Not a pleasant prospect.
Hidden Heart
Bah. Comment stuck in moderation because I used a synonym for “background” that is a word used to describe a bunch of Brian Eno’s music. I forgot that it contains the name of a popular prescription drug. Sorry. No intent to spam.
Schlemizel
@Steve: At least it would be if there were not several evangelist spokes clowns for the GOP on record saying exactly this. The reunification of Jerusalem is a precursor to Christ’s return & therefore should be encouraged.
Joey Maloney
@chopper:
Mitt’s shoring up his support with Adelson’s checkbook. Anything else he gets out of this is gravy.
Amir Khalid
Alas, I was unable to read the story at the link. I’m not a Ha’aretz subscriber.
Sly
@MazeDancer:
In other words, the same people who believe that the President is a secret Muslim are deeply offended that he hasn’t taken a pilgrimage to the Middle East.
NotMax
@Cacti
And Romney, as the equivalent of a bishop in his church, is required to accept it as veracity and to do all he can to promote it.
To do otherwise he would be branded both a heretic and a hypocrite.
Soonergrunt
As others here have noted, Rmoney didn’t say anything about the fact that Israel’s health care system is socialized medicine. He damn sure isn’t going to say anything about the fact that their health care system, and the people who run it have interpreted Israeli law so broadly as to deliver free abortion on demand.
amk
Juan Cole – 10 reasons why Romney’s Israel trip is in bad taste.
wrb
@Schlemizel:
That is my experience too when I was young liberal supported Israel and Jews because they were seen to be oppressed and deserving of compensation for what happened while conservatives had nothing good to say about those they called “hebes,” “yids” and “jew boys” (in my schoolyard almost all insults implied homosexuality, Jewishness, or the possession of an Italian complexion.)
Now the positions of right and left have largely reversed.
I think shared Islamaphobia and a liking of Israel’s refusal too seek that icky liberal thing called peace has more to do with it that the rapture. Israel has been treating Palestinians like our right would like to treat all Arabs. They’ve bonded.
Soonergrunt
@RP: you might need to check your snark meter.
Roger Moore
@liberal:
Good point. It’s entirely plausible that the major point of the trip was to please Mitt’s money men, especially Adelson, rather than to appeal to any broader constituency in America. Mitt has been running a money-intensive, top-down campaign, and he obviously needs a lot of cash to keep it going. If that means auctioning off our policy on Israel to Sheldon Adelson, he’ll see it as a small price to pay for the Presidency.
LosGatosCA
@Villago Delenda Est:
Crazy is the tribal marker. Plus hate.
'Niques
So, apparently, rMoney is not content shipping OUR jobs overseas — as president he’d also outsource HIS OWN.
Chris
@RP:
Exactly.
FYWP for not letting me post this last time, but –
Changing demographics in American society explain a lot of this. Jews, like Catholics, became much more accepted by American society over the course of the last hundred years. That made it possible for conservative WASP fanatics to ally with conservative elements in those communities against perceived common enemies. Fast forward to today and you’ve got Republicans making the Catholic Church’s right to dictate health coverage into a defining issue. Supporting the Israeli right wing is the same thing.
And no, it’s not religious, not exclusively, because Ayn Rand said exactly the same thing back in the day – Israel is “civilized” (read: white), Arabs are “savages” (read: darkies) and so we must support Israel.
catclub
@Villago Delenda Est: “has resulted in all sorts of changes that many Israelis don’t care much for, but have been rendered powerless to stop.”
Sounds like the filibuster here. We are also not powerless to stop it, but there are opposing forces that desire it.
Likewise for the choice to empower microparties.
catclub
@Joey Maloney: “Mitt’s shoring up his support with Adelson’s checkbook.”
I really really hope that Adelson’s checkbook is shown to be filled with money directly from China. And directed by the Chinese.
fuzz
Couldn’t agree more with the people saying it goes beyond the rapture/religious angle and is more because of the Intifadas and the notion that Israel is on ‘our team’ against the Arab/Muslim menace. There is also, among people who really support Israel, this perception that it’s still the 50s and early 60s and Israel is somehow still the underdog surrounded by powerful enemies that outnumber them.
RP
@Soonergrunt: No, I get that he was snarking. But everytime the subject of Israel comes up, someone has to make this same stupid joke: “I guess if we criticize Israel we’re anti-semites, ha, ha!” It’s an attempt to preempt any sort of discussion of anti-semitism and portray anyone who raises it as a serious issue as a nut. It’s no different from some righty saying “oh, I guess I shouldn’t criticize Obama or you’ll play the race card.”
Amir Khalid
So I’ve just read the Grauniad’s report on Mitt’s speech at the Monday night fundraiser, and God damn that lying son of a bitch. Not only does he overestimate Palestine’s per capita GDP by an order of magnitude, he attributes the economic gap between them and Israel to the latter’s cultural superiority. Yeah, Israel’s superiority: as shown by its long-standing policy of strangling Palestine and its economy in every way possible.
Chris
@fuzz:
Ironically, during that time period is was France, not America, that was Israel’s biggest backer. Backing underdogs really isn’t our strong point, it seems…
catclub
@Ash Can: “Not a pleasant prospect.” It is not so bad. Remember that the Black Death did wonders for the prospects of the peasants who survived it.
You seem to have at least three of the Four Horsemen in your comment.
Sideshow Bill
@magurakurin:
/snark
geg6
@Schlemizel:
This is exactly how it went with me. Started out as a huge Israel fan in my youth, reading everything I could get my hands on about the founding and contemporary political leaders. The PLO was, in my youthful opinion, awful and horrible and my feelings were confirmed by Munich 1972.
For a long while, in the late 70s and early 80s, Israel fell off my radar. I didn’t pay attention to it much and I thought it was as it had always been there. I woke up during the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Since then, there are few countries for which I feel more loathing for how they operate than Israel. I want my country to stop being Israel’s enabler and abused girlfriend. And, with the takeover of the government by the ultra-right, I wish we’d just cut all ties, especially any foreign aid.
I actually know quite a few American Jews who feel the same way. Some even more radically than me.
Linda Featheringill
@Steve: #39
It wasn’t meant to be a compliment. Simplistic? Maybe. But it does explain a lot of stuff.
dead existentialist
@Amir Khalid: Rmoney is almost comical that way IF the truth weren’t so fucking sad. American blacks were hard workers prior to 1863.
This fuckwit is making little Bush look smart.
fuzz
@Chris:
Yup, it was France that gave them the reactor and basically built the Israeli Air Force too. I might be wrong but I think even in 67 the IAF was flying Mirages and not F4s.
Frankensteinbeck
@Amir Khalid:
Yes. It is disgusting. Netenyahu is an abominable genocidal monster, and Romney is happy to fall into line with him for 100 million of Adelson’s money.
Frankensteinbeck
@Amir Khalid:
Yes. It is disgusting. Netenyahu is an abominable genocidal monster, and Romney is happy to fall into line with him for 100 million of Adelson’s money.
Culture of Truth
Do we foresee a day when conservative WASPs, Catholics and Muslims make common cause?
Chris
@fuzz:
Yep. The stars of the 1967 war were the Mirage III on the Israeli side and the MiG-21 on the Arab side.
The two countries came together because they figured they had a common enemy in the form of Arab nationalism, which the French were fighting in Algeria.
NotMax
2fuzz
The entire “rapture/religious angle” is, of course, not a sole cause. Hearty agreement with you on that.
Precious few things in life can be traced back to a sole cause.
However, the integration of people who advocate it as a sole cause, prime cause or fetish for the gullible, and allowance of their stances without dispute as a trade-off for support erects unmerited restrictions and provides an unattractive basis for rationalization when pushing blinkered policy.
NotMax
@fuzz
The entire “rapture/religious angle” is, of course, not a sole cause. Hearty agreement with you on that.
Precious few things in life can be traced back to a sole cause.
However, the integration of people who advocate it as a sole cause, prime cause or fetish for the gullible, and allowance of their stances without dispute as a trade-off for support erects unmerited restrictions and provides an unattractive basis for rationalization when pushing blinkered policy.
karen
@RP:
Can’t it also be possible that some of the people on the right support Israel simply because a lot of neocons are Jewish?
Chris
@Culture of Truth:
Already happened in the Cold War. In the culture war between secular left wing Arab nationalists (personified by Nasser) and conservative religious Muslim fundamentalists (personified by our good friends the Saudis and organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood) we were very much on the side of the fundies.
Granted that was foreign policy. Domestically? Muslim Americans were a Republican leaning voting bloc all the way through 9/11: can’t say how much of that was from the religious conservatives in the group but I imagine a lot of it was.
Villago Delenda Est
@Hill Dweller:
Draft dodging vermin like Cheney and Romney think war is just grand.
Cacti
@NotMax:
Actually, Romney’s last position in the Mormon Church was the functional equivalent of an Archbishop in the RCC. A “Ward” is the Mormon equivalent of a Parish, and a “Stake” is the Mormon version of a Diocese.
Mitt was the “Stake President” for the Boston area, with 9 local units under his jurisdiction.
You don’t become a Stake President in the Mormon religion without being well-connected. Had he not gone into politics, they likely would have continued to run him up the chain with Mission President as his next stop.
Culture of Truth
Mitt was the “Stake President” for the Boston area
He was a Mittstake for all of Massachusetts.
wrb
@karen:
Makes sense vehement right wing arguments are made entangled with vehement pro-Israel arguments.
It is too much to ask their average reader to pick them apart. “A spoon full of sugar helps…”
RP
@karen: I was referring to the average republican voter, not pundits and political officials.
Ruckus
@NotMax:
“Main Street Republican types” are less frequently sighted than the dodo since the Dominionist/teabagger/fundamentalist/neocons/whackadoo elements co-opted the party.
I have to ask the questions, what happened to the “old conservatives”? And where did all those whackadoo elements come from? Did they just spring out of the ground?
This is the republican party. Is it nuts because it has crazy followers or because it has crazy leaders?
The answer is both. As it has been for the last at least 60-80 years.
scav
@Amir Khalid: Yep, ‘zactly. My sirst stop is always the Guard and after that one, I was made even more irate by the Times Roman Crickets Chorus (not surprised, angered. Maybe they’ll catch up in a few months). I would so love for there to be official consequences for playing with fire in that tinderbox and merely using the region as a cheaply animated backdrop for a few ads . . . and an ATM with a not-so-coded password.
liberal
@wrb:
That’s fine, but compensating Jews for crimes committed by other Europeans by taking land from Arabs was always a funny way of going about it.
FormerSwingVoter
You guys are overcomplicating this.
Right-wingers do not support Israel because they think it will bring about the rapture. Some do, but they are in the minority.
Right-wingers support Israel because Israel’s foreign policy has, as its primary goal, maximizing suffering against brown people.
If you want to know how conservatives will react to an issue, imagine the one possible solution that would maximize human suffering. Conservatives will argue for that thing as the greatest moral good. This tactic can determine conservative ideology on any topic with roughly 98% accuracy.
wrb
@Ruckus:
Most of the ones I know have gone quiet but are still voting Republican. They’ll let the wackos have the social issues as long as taxes and regulation are kept down. They mostly accept fresh water economics, so they think the republican prescriptions are right. After all isn’t there an economist from Stanford who’s always saying that they are. And Krugman is short and fuzzy.
They might privately believe that climate change is real but they favor arguing that it isn’t because they figure it is less bad than the result of acknowledgment: an orgy of self-serving rent-seeking (privilege-seeking) by lawyers, regulators, experts, scientists and urban planners.
liberal
@Schlemizel:
It really started well before that, and appears to have been part of Labor’s plans, too.
As far as the Internet goes, that’s true, but Chomsky was writing about this stuff at least as early as the early 1970s. So it depends on what “obvious” means. In a similar vain, it took more than a decade for people both start paying attention to what we were doing in Indochina, and then also rebel against it. Nowaways, people were against the invasion of Iraq in substantial numbers before it even started.
liberal
@wrb:
What joins all right-wingers together, of all stripes, is a hatred of progressive taxation.
wrb
@liberal:
“Creative” is the preferred term.
liberal
@Chris:
I briefly met a Palestinian American who said a lot of them voted for W because Clinton et al. weren’t very good on the Israel issue.
Whoops.
Sloegin
3 flags were in my community church when I was growing up. The US Flag, a Christian flag (white with blue corner in the upper left like the blue field on the US flag, with a red cross in the field) and a flag of Israel.
Didn’t think much of the symbolism growing up. I think a lot more on it now. Folks in that church may not have had any truck with the idea of jump-starting the apocalypse because God couldn’t manage it himself, but they bought the rest of the pre-millennial dispensationalism, rapture, etc hook line and sinker.
But that’s not even really the deal here. Mostly US-Israel relations for the Christian community are bound up with the idea of Israel being the Holy Lands, as in ‘the Crusades were a pretty good idea’ Holy Lands. It’s all God and Country for them, and Israel is pretty much a 51st state, because how could it not be?
liberal
@fuzz:
Chomsky claims that US support for Israel (supplanting France etc) came in the wake of the 1967 war.
liberal
@RP:
You’re wrong.
RP
@liberal: Thanks. Good to know.
Ruckus
@wrb:
And you are making my point for me. They still are republicans. They know their leaders are batshit crazy but they still vote for them. They are enablers. They are the good cops that do nothing about the bad ones, the thick blue line. Are they better because you know them and don’t think they are bad people, maybe just misguided? They vote for crazy people. They vote against their own best interest.
And what about the batshit followers? Did they not vote republican when the majority didn’t think conservatives were batshit? Are they not happy that their batshit leaders are in charge. This is a country where we only have but two realistic choices in the voting booth, dem or repub, unlike a parliamentary system where there are multiple, realistic choices. For the last 60-80 years at least the choices have been painfully slowly advancing progressive or batshit. That’s it.
You are with us or against us.
Tehanu
@Sloegin:
My parents were a “mixed marriage” – Chicago non-observant Jew marries Texas ex-Congregationalist — so I grew up with essentially no religion at all. My husband’s family were Baptists and I remember actually being startled when my late mother-in-law mentioned that some friends had taken a trip to “the Holy Land.”
Barry
@Brian R.: “When Mitt bows and scrapes and promises to give Israel whatever Bibi wants, in these eyes of these voters, it’s not anymore humiliating than making silly noises to a pet to trick them into getting in the car for a trip the vet’s office”
Or luring the beast onto the altar while sharpening the sacrificial blade.