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You are here: Home / Politifact Calls Harry Reid a Liar; Wishes There Was a Way to Prove that Romney Paid Income Tax

Politifact Calls Harry Reid a Liar; Wishes There Was a Way to Prove that Romney Paid Income Tax

by Imani Gandy (ABL)|  August 6, 20128:55 pm| 101 Comments

This post is in: General Stupidity, Looks Like I Picked the Wrong Week to Stop Sniffing Glue, Our Failed Media Experiment, Romney of the Uncanny Valley

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Politifact rated Harry Reid’s statement that a Bain investor called him up and told him that Romney didn’t pay any taxes as “Pants on Fire.”

Duh.

Dana Houle explains why Politifact is politistupid:

Harry Reid says he heard from someone that Mitt Romney didn’t pay taxes for ten years. We don’t know if what Reid said was true or false, because the evidence that could be easily proffered to settle the dispute is still being held back by Mitt Romney. But Politifact says Reid isn’t telling the truth, so they issued their idiotic pants on fire judgment againt Reid.

The logical problem here is that Politiface is saying Reid is lying, and supporting their claim by citing tax experts who say that the it can’t be true that Romney didn’t pay taxes. But that’s not what Reid is saying, he’s not saying he knows Romney didn’t pay taxes. Rather, he’s saying he was told Romney didn’t pay taxes. If the claim is wrong, it’s person who made the claim who’s wrong, not Harry Reid for repeating it.

Politifact goes on to wonder whether it is likely that Romney paid no taxes:

Still, we wondered how likely it was that Romney didn’t pay taxes for 10 years.

The geniuses at Politi-WTF answer their own question referencing a bunch of gibberish that nobody gives a shit about:

In an Internal Revenue Service study of nearly 4 million 2009 tax returns of filers reporting more than $200,000 in adjusted gross income, 20,752 of these taxpayers — or just 0.529 percent — had no U.S. income tax liability. About half of those did have income tax liability in other countries.

But Romney’s recent income has been substantially higher than $200,000, meaning that the size of his deductions and credits would need to be even larger than for many of those included in this IRS study if his tax liability was going to fall to zero. According to the one full return he’s released, for tax year 2010, he and his wife Ann reported an adjusted gross income of $21.6 million and paid taxes of about $3 million. He’s also released an estimate of his 2011 taxes, which showed income of $20.9 million and a tax payment of $3.2 million.

To gauge tax patterns for even higher-income earners, the best we can do is to look at another IRS study detailing the taxes paid by the top 400 earners in the nation in 2008. To make this list, you would have to have earned roughly $109 million that year. Among those 400 top taxpayers, 30 — or 7.5 percent — had an effective tax rate of between 0 and 10 percent. Given how the statistics are calculated, it’s impossible to know how many paid no taxes, but it’s safe to assume it’s well below 7.5 percent.

Neither study directly addresses Romney’s situation — he falls somewhere in the middle of the two studies — but the data does show that for earners both below and above him, it’s unlikely they paid zero taxes for one year, and it’s even more far-fetched to think they did so for 10 years.

Blah blah no one cares blah blah blah

Gee whiz, Politifact! If only there was someway to figure out whether or not Romney paid any income tax. Some way aside from having the Romney campaign describe what’s in his tax returns. Maybe a rousing game of “Hot/Cold” would do? Wr’ll throw out tax rates and Romney could tell us “Warmer… Warmer…”

There must be some easy way that would answer this question once and for all. Perhaps there are some documents that Romney could provide to the public to answer this wretched tax return question? Perhaps some documents that he provided to the McCain campaign that caused Pepaw to run screaming into the arms of the Wolf-Killah from Wasilla?

There must be something that Romney could do — just can’t put my finger on it…

Just give me a minute – it’ll come to me.

[via Rooted Cosmopolitan]

[cross-posted at ABLC]

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Reader Interactions

101Comments

  1. 1.

    edmund dantes

    August 6, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    And it’s not even like we are asking him to do something no presidential candidate has ever done. We are simply asking him to hold up to his father’s own standard, plus several other candidates since then.

  2. 2.

    taylormattd

    August 6, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    Seriously, those people at poli”fact” are such douchebags.

    Similarly, I could do without the sanctimonious hand-wringing from the likes of Anderson Cooper and John Stewart on this issue. I mean, give it a rest already.

  3. 3.

    cyntax

    August 6, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Maybe a rousing game of “Hot/Cold” would do?

    OK, that’s just funny.

    Can’t get more tire-swingy than Politifact.

  4. 4.

    redshirt

    August 6, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    It’s like reading The Yoga Times. Such contortions! The lengths the media will go to cover Mitt’s flank (band name?) is astounding.

  5. 5.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    August 6, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    Steve Ratner said on MJ that the fact that Romney paid no taxes was not the issue, it was the fact that Romney paid no taxes LEGALLY was the issue. Ratner said that even people in the venture capital world were astonished at the loopholes that Romney used to avoid taxes, the fact that Romney hired a lobbyist in order to pay less property taxes. Think about that for a moment, he actually thought it was financially advantageous to him to hire someone to make sure that he did not have to pay property taxes to fund the firefighters, police and whatever else keeps him safe. This is a guy who is having a secret service detail protecting him 24/7 and yet doesn’t think he should have to pay taxes to pay for that. WHAT THE FUCK?

  6. 6.

    Mister Harvest

    August 6, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    And, of course, Romney has been very careful to say that he “paid tax.” Well, doh, anyone who buys a Snickers bar in a state with sales tax pays tax. The question is, “Did he pay Federal income tax for that period, and at what net rate?” It’s increasingly clear that the answer is not one he cares to discuss.

  7. 7.

    OGLiberal

    August 6, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    For once, Mark Halperin is among those not wringing his hands. His words are “Reid Wins.” Now, this worries me because Halperin is almost always wrong. But it’s strange that even Mr. This is Great News For John McCain can see the potency of this before “Harry, be nice” Jon Stewart. (and I love Stewart and despise Halperin)

  8. 8.

    Redshift

    August 6, 2012 at 9:11 pm

    That is an amazing load of blather that Politifart published. Based on the same logic, we can label “pants on fire” anyone who says that Romney made an income of tens of millions, because extremely few Americans made that much!

  9. 9.

    kc

    August 6, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    Jesus, Poltifact is dumber than a bag of hammers.

  10. 10.

    jl

    August 6, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    Is this some BJ front poster spoof? Srsly.

    Well, you know, you sure wouldn’t find Politifact basing a conclusion on some unnamed source hack expert, would you?

    This is insane.
    It’s a he said she said, and Reid admits, repeatedly, what he said he said. In fact Reid seems to be enjoying the fact that he can repeat what he said he said as often and as forcefully was he wants.

    What is the word for ‘beyond self parody’? Because Politifact just powered straight through the boundary.

  11. 11.

    El Cid

    August 6, 2012 at 9:15 pm

    So, Reid is lying about what someone told him?

    Does this mean that [they’ll say the same about Romney] every time Romney tells an anecdote on the campaign trail about some inspiring small business owner that heroically worked 386 hours a day creating a million billion jobs until the government came in and made him fill out 43 miles worth of paperwork until he went out of business?

  12. 12.

    BGinCHI

    August 6, 2012 at 9:17 pm

    Reid: “Marco”

    Romney: “…”

    PolitiFuckt: Harry Reid has ruined the game of Marco Polo forever.

  13. 13.

    dmsilev

    August 6, 2012 at 9:19 pm

    Fortunately, Reid doesn’t seem to give a shit about the tut tutting coming from the factcheckers, overpaid pundits, bored journalists, etc.. I’m sure he cares about the frothing rage coming from the GOP, but only because it’s so amusing.

    http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/harry-reid-mitt-romney-taxes-10-years.php

    The latest salvo in the intensifying spat comes from Reid’s chief of staff David Krone, who upped the taunts by calling Republicans “a bunch of cowards” and “henchmen for Romney” in an interview with Politico late Sunday night.

  14. 14.

    AkaDad

    August 6, 2012 at 9:21 pm

    Politifail

  15. 15.

    Jay in Oregon

    August 6, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Here’s a hint, Politifact: If your analysis consists of “well, this is what other people in his income bracket would have paid” and “this is what he paid in one of the years that he Reid isn’t talking about,” you’re not fact-checking.

    Here’s a fact: there are documents called “tax returns” that can prove conclusively if Harry Reid is accurate regarding his assertion that Romney has not paid taxes. Unless Politifact is quoting directly from those documents, they should STFU.

    I don’t give a rat’s ass whether I agree with Politifact’s conclusions or not; reducing complex political debates and philosophies down to “pants on fire” and “three Pinnochios” is a complete disgrace.

  16. 16.

    ODB

    August 6, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    Only 1 in 311 million Americans is president. The chances of being hit by lightning are 1 in 1 million. Therefore, we rate the claim that Barack Obama is president as pants on fire. There is simply no way he can be president, given these odds. Consider there are 6 billion people on earth but only one of them is president of the United States. Anyone who would repeat that Barack Obama is president is clearly a liar.

  17. 17.

    jl

    August 6, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    The thing is that if Politifact really dislikes the way Reid is making a political point, say, because Politifact can’t play umpire it is uncivil or unworthy of high civic discourse, then it should write an editorial and say so.

    If Politifact feels that all campaign talk should be facty in the sense that Politifact can issue its little pretend fireman ratings, then they could editorialize on that.

    Or if Politifact has been deluged with requests for a rating, they could explain why they can’t handle that.

    You could agree to disagree, but any of those would make sense and leave some shred of Pfact’s reputation intact.

    But they issue bogus rating on a news story that cannot be rated, and so produce a ‘pants on fire’ that is patent nonsense, or that has its own pants on fire, depending on how charitable you want to be towards Pfact.

    Edit: I am not feeling charitable. What if BJ commenters all asked Pfact to rate Pfact’s rating? With suggestions regarding what is wrong with it.

  18. 18.

    Carl Nyberg

    August 6, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    Has Romney denied the allegation?

    It’s not like Romney has to release his returns to say, “I have paid federal income taxes every year since leaving Bain. At my lowest, I paid $XXX,000.”

    Having a bunch of surrogates say Reid is lying, especially surrogates that haven’t seen the returns seems a bit suspicious.

    But then again, I was suspicious of the case for invading Iraq. So, maybe the problem is me. Maybe I just need to trust Republicans more.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    August 6, 2012 at 9:23 pm

    Um, are we missing the real story here:

    Among those 400 top taxpayers, 30 — or 7.5 percent — had an effective tax rate of between 0 and 10 percent.

    Those are the top taxpayers in the entire country.

    And this:

    “I agree that it’s extremely unlikely that Mr. Romney paid no income taxes for 10 years,” White said.

    So even Politifact’s experts can’t guarantee that Romney – who makes $20 million a year – has paid federal income taxes?!

    BTW, I do hope Romney adopts the defense of “Politifact agrees that it is highly unlikely that I’ve paid no taxes for 10 years.” I think that’s a winner.

  20. 20.

    BGinCHI

    August 6, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    I think it’s extra delicious that if Sharron Angle had only run a passable campaign Reid wouldn’t even be in the Senate.

    Way to go Tea Party Morans.

  21. 21.

    rockhard

    August 6, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    Guess Cole was right. We should just give up and let the GOP win. Cole is always worth listening to.

  22. 22.

    BGinCHI

    August 6, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    @ODB: You know McArdle has done that math in her head already. Without using her fingers.

  23. 23.

    Patricia Kayden

    August 6, 2012 at 9:25 pm

    “There must be something that Romney could do—just can’t put my finger on it…”

    Thanks for the laugh. Hopefully, Romney will continue to act the fool and let this story linger for a few more days (or months). Good going, Reid.

  24. 24.

    butler

    August 6, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    @BGinCHI: Sharon Angle couldn’t have run an passable campaign, because she’s Sharon Angle.

  25. 25.

    BGinCHI

    August 6, 2012 at 9:27 pm

    I’m pretty sure this is the only way Harry Reid’s pants are ever going to be on fire.

  26. 26.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    August 6, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    If Reid was black, Obama would already be required to condemn him.

  27. 27.

    Egilsson

    August 6, 2012 at 9:28 pm

    I’d like to see more of the weak-kneed Democratic leadership back up Harry Reid. Good for him for landing some punches. God bless Sharron Angle.

    Maddow’s segment tonight is pretty lousy too; what’s up with that? It’s almost Villager-esque.

  28. 28.

    dmsilev

    August 6, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    @Carl Nyberg: He’s “denied” the allegation. Specifically, he’s said something along the lines of “I pay lots of taxes”, which of course cause the suspicious-minded among us to note that he didn’t specify “US taxes” or for that matter “Federal income tax”.

  29. 29.

    amk

    August 6, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    I love it that Dirty Harry has set the pants of pundtwits and msm hacks on fire. Obama piled it on today at CT calling mittbot’s tax plan Romney Hood, the exact opposite of Robin hood. Works on so many levels.

  30. 30.

    butler

    August 6, 2012 at 9:31 pm

    And right after this “Pants on Fire” ruling, they give Romney’s lies about the Ohio early voting lawsuit merely a weak “false” instead of the deserved “So fucking false it imperials the very notion of truth”.

  31. 31.

    Patricia Kayden

    August 6, 2012 at 9:32 pm

    @Litlebritdifrnt: Wow, so he even has to pay to get his property taxes lowered?! Is he running for President just for a lower tax bracket? Feels like it.

  32. 32.

    PeakVT

    August 6, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    A helpful comparison.

  33. 33.

    dmsilev

    August 6, 2012 at 9:33 pm

    @amk:

    I love it that Dirty Harry has set the pants of pundtwits and msm hacks on fire. Obama piled it on today atCT calling mittbot’s tax plan Romney Hood, the exact opposite of Robin hood. Works on so many levels.

    Romney Hood robs from the poor and gives to the rich.

    Seems accurate enough to me, but I’m sure Politifactcheck will rate it 4 flaming Pinocchios.

  34. 34.

    jon

    August 6, 2012 at 9:34 pm

    But Romney’s recent income has been substantially higher than $200,000, meaning that the size of his deductions and credits would need to be even larger than for many of those included in this IRS study if his tax liability was going to fall to zero.

    How do they know? Infinite Pinocchios given!

  35. 35.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Romney isn’t human. He’s from the planet Dooh Nibor.

  36. 36.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    OT: it’s a little unsettling to see an entire country bitch about calls.

  37. 37.

    amk

    August 6, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    @PeakVT: Nice. Tweeted.

  38. 38.

    danimal

    August 6, 2012 at 9:42 pm

    If the Vichy Dems and the Beltway Chuckleheads like Politicact are tut-tutting Reid, I have only one thing to say: Keep the Pressure On; It’s Working.

    Seriously, is there any indication these folks understand ANYTHING about ANYTHING? They are so institutionally focused they can’t comprehend that tough politics can be played by the Dems.

    4 Pinnochios? They simply can not prove that Reid is lying. The Pinnochios rating is MORE speculative than Reid’s claim that he was told Romney paid no taxes.

  39. 39.

    xian

    August 6, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    I read some analysis today (OK, it was pasted into a facebook comment) suggesting that Mitt’s big-ass IRA may have also provided some sort of magical offsetting loophole that could have reduced some or many of his tax liabilities to 0.

    Someone else mentioned the blackmail angle. How can we give the nuclear codes to a man who is desperate to keep his taxes and financial history a secret?

  40. 40.

    Thomas F

    August 6, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    I heard from a close friend that Barack Obama was caught cheating on one of his exams at Harvard Law and was academically disciplined. He has the information in his possession, so I’ll just consider it accurate until he proves otherwise!

    Logic games are fun.

  41. 41.

    danimal

    August 6, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    Also, Romney keeps saying he paid plenty of taxes over the past ten years. Do you see the missing adjective? Perhaps someone can ask him if he paid INCOME taxes over the past 10 years.

  42. 42.

    geg6

    August 6, 2012 at 9:45 pm

    This might be the most fun I’ve had with a poltical story since Lady Starbursts of Wasilla burst onto the scene.

    To think she’s a better poltician than Mittens blows my my mind. But it’s true. At last she inspire passion and a movement, even if it was one of crazy people. No one but Reince Priebus (best GOPer name ever) seems to be all that passionate about defending Willard. And as long as Harry Reid keeps throwing punches, the less passion there will be and the more damaged Willard gets. Was it Tbogg who said Reid is honeybadger? Or Benen? Whoever it was is right. Harry’s going out in a blaze of glory, like the boxer he was. I never thought I’d say this, but I could just kiss Harry.

  43. 43.

    xian

    August 6, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    @danimal: right, at this point the whole “Fact-checking” canard has become an instrument for enforcing beltway conventional wisdom.

    To this I say, hey, it’s another day their shiny thing is Romney’s taxes or whether it’s fair to say something about Romney’s taxes or Republican denials and counterattacks about Romney’s taxes and oh have I mentioned Romney’s taxes?

    I *love* that Reid’s spokesman waited till today to respond to the Sunday morning attacks on Reid. This draws it all out yet another day.

    Me, I heard Romney wrote off a lot of child sacrifice to the Carthaginian god Ba’al in the go-go ’90s.

  44. 44.

    El Cid

    August 6, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    I think it’s extraordinarily unlikely that Mitt Romney has millions and millions of dollars.

    The median individual income in the USA is about $50,000.

    About 93% of Americans have an individual income under $100,000.

    C’mon — how likely is it that Mitt Romney had incomes of, like, tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars?

    That’s wildly improbable. I’ll have to give it Four Falstaffs.

  45. 45.

    Anton Sirius

    August 6, 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Is it just me, or did PoliticiFact just admit that they have a tap on Harry Reid’s phone? Because otherwise they have no way of verifying if what he said was true or not.

    Dumbass O’Keefe got arrested for trying something like that to a sitting senator. I think the FBI needs to get involved here.

  46. 46.

    xian

    August 6, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    @Thomas F: good luck with that one. It’s sure to tear down the presidency.

    Funny how wingnuts are able to mouth the responses fed to them by their masters but cannot understand the real context of the situation. Every time they scream “college transcript” I laugh and laugh.

  47. 47.

    cyntax

    August 6, 2012 at 9:52 pm

    @Thomas F:
    I can haz false ekwevilanzies?

  48. 48.

    El Cid

    August 6, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    @Thomas F: Some guy told me Mitt Romney paid a bunch in taxes. I would say something, but, I don’t know if I believe him. He won’t gimme no evidence to back it up. So I guess it’s just hearsay.

  49. 49.

    Cacti

    August 6, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    @danimal:

    Also, Romney keeps saying he paid plenty of taxes over the past ten years.

    Yep.

    Sounds an awful lot like weasel words from a guy with something to hide.

    “I paid plenty of taxes” =/= “I paid federal income taxes”

  50. 50.

    pseudonymous in nc

    August 6, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    When a GOPer says something false, it’s a 100% fact that the GOPer said it, and that will do for the press.

    Reid’s just playing by those rules — it’s a fact that he said it’s a fact that a Bain investor told him about Rmoney — not those of Bullshitifact or the other fact-upchuckers.

  51. 51.

    xian

    August 6, 2012 at 9:54 pm

    @efgoldman: I think Ba’al was Canaanite or Phoenician originally?

    btw, anyone catch Obama’s line today about how Romney’s tax plan is like reverse Robin Hood, or “Romney Hood”?

  52. 52.

    Cacti

    August 6, 2012 at 9:55 pm

    Also too, I heard that Joe Lieberman has deigned to tell us that Harry Reid is “over the line”.

    If whiny Joe disapproves, then you know it must be working.

  53. 53.

    MikeJ

    August 6, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    @Thomas F: They disciplined him so harshly he became president of the HLR.

  54. 54.

    El Cid

    August 6, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    @xian: They think he’s Kenyan because when Obama speaks, he isn’t a dumb person’s idea of a smart person, he’s a smart person, and they cannot comprehend him.

    So while you and I hear an Obama speech and understand what he’s saying, all they hear are these sounds zooming in and out and they see his lips moving and they know he’s just mouthing gibberish, because in their heads these words all are collapsing into gibberish.

    And therefore they need to know how a man speaking such absolute gibberish can possibly pass a college class, given that most of them know very little about how to pass a college class, especially really difficult classes.

  55. 55.

    e.a.f.

    August 6, 2012 at 9:56 pm

    poli facts, sounds more like poli anna time. Dreaming in colours or some such thing. All Harry Reid said was,some one told him…… It is like passing on gossip. Mr. Reid didn’t say it was a fact. Only Romney can prove it one way or another. It could be this is a ploy to have Romney release his taxes but I don’t think he will.

    When some one who is running for the presidency of the U.S.A. doesn’t want to hand over his tax files it would be reasonable to conclude there is a reason for it. The reason is most likely much more than $77K for the horse’s medical costs. I would suggest the deductions might be so large & frequent he isn’t paying much of anything & he doesn’t want it to cost him the presidency. He might find that not telling is going to cost him the prsidency anyhow. Anyone that secretive probably won’t be the most open presiden the U.S.A. has had.

  56. 56.

    Mnemosyne

    August 6, 2012 at 9:58 pm

    @Thomas F:

    Yes, if only there was an easy and common way for Romney to disprove these scurrilous accusations, a way so common that every presidential candidate since his own father has done it.

    Nah, there can’t be any way that Romney could prove what he paid in taxes, or Romney would have done it already. Only an idiot would let something so easily disproved fester in the press for so long.

  57. 57.

    El Cid

    August 6, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    @pseudonymous in nc: People seem to forget that particular detail, both in terms of the story and in terms of twisting the knife.

    Or, less melodramatically, Reid is like Obama sitting behind Romney on the bus, and now they both keep interrupting Romney from bullying the little poor kid in front of him by tapping his ear or throwing some tiny thing at the back of his neck, and then instantly looking like they weren’t doing anything.

  58. 58.

    amk

    August 6, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    @Thomas F: You neither know logic nor games.

  59. 59.

    amk

    August 6, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    Frank Rich tweets

    The Adelson taint may yet surpass Romney’s buried tax returns as a political fiasco. This won’t stay in Vegas.

  60. 60.

    Cacti

    August 6, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Shit, Romney wouldn’t even have to release his tax returns to prove he paid federal income taxes. He could just release records from his financial institution(s) showing payments and dates to the Dept of the Treasury.

  61. 61.

    shortstop

    August 6, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Looooovin’ Mitt is easy cause he’s comical…and every time that he…ooh…I’m more and more amused. Pass the popcorn, Minnie.

  62. 62.

    gvg

    August 6, 2012 at 10:07 pm

    Politifact doesn’t seem to understand what a liar is-someone who knowingly tells what isn’t true. that means that Reid would have to know as in have copies of the Romney tax return and I doubt that plus politifact would have to have actual reasons to think Reid knew for certain that there was nothing in the allegations. Unless they think no one told Reid this story and I don’t see how they could know that.

    They also seem to be missing the main point. I think I’m pretty typical and I just don’t care about Reid. I want Romneys’ tax return. Every presidential candidate I remember in my life has released quite a few. Its an amazingly important position that impacts my life directly in many ways and I want to know. He is taking too much flack on these hiding them. there is something there. At this point I won’t accept a substitute. Even if he wont release them before the election and loses, I STILL want to see them whenever they can be pried lose as I have to assume ably we need to reform the tax code in someway. But I want to know.
    Why waste fuss on Reid? There are many people saying the same thing and coming up with other damaging possibilities too. Even shutting up Reid just isn’t going to stop this.
    The thing that gets everyone is that he’s been aiming for this and running for years. How could he not have cleaned up his returns before he got to this point? It’s so stupid. I guess he is so isolated that he didn’t realize early on that people generally were likely to get mad about this? He has never been hungry or worried about money in his life I guess.

  63. 63.

    Cacti

    August 6, 2012 at 10:08 pm

    My theory has always been that he was one of the tax cheats that was on UBS’s list of names for the IRS. The fact that he closed his Swiss Bank Account right around the time they started naming names is a giant red flag.

  64. 64.

    JasonF

    August 6, 2012 at 10:09 pm

    Politifact justifies their rating by saying “Reid has produced no evidence to back up his claim other than attribution to a shadowy anonymous source.”

    There is a concept in the law called “spoliation of evidence.” Briefly, it means that if I have relevant evidence in my possession and I destroy it, the finder of fact (i.e. the judge or jury) is entitled to presume that the evidence would have been unfavorable to me. Less commonly — but on point here — it is also considered spoliation of evidence if, rather than destroying the evidence, I simply refuse to produce it.

    Were the question of Mitt Romney’s income taxes being tried in a court, it is very clear that spoliation of evidence would apply, and would lead to a finding in Harry Reid’s favor.

  65. 65.

    shortstop

    August 6, 2012 at 10:10 pm

    Although I’m certain that the election will come and go without Mitt having released his returns, I predict that the pressure will amp up to such a degree that he’ll try a Stennis Compromise. He’ll offer some specially prepared “financial summary” or “tax snapshot,” the country will laugh in his face, and he’ll huffily respond that he found a reasonable solution that should have satisfied everyone, but now he’s not giving us anything because of our prying hostility.

  66. 66.

    Cacti

    August 6, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    @JasonF:

    Politifact justifies their rating by saying “Reid has produced no evidence to back up his claim other than attribution to a shadowy anonymous source.”

    In other words, Politifact insists that Harry Reid prove a negative.

  67. 67.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 10:20 pm

    @Cacti:

    The fact that he closed his Swiss Bank Account right around the time they started naming names is a giant red flag.

    It would be if it were a fact. Take a look at Schedule B to the 2010 return.

  68. 68.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 10:22 pm

    @amk:

    Oh yeah. If the full story of all of Sands shenanigans in Macau is ever told to a grand jury, people will get indicted, and Adelson may be one of them.

  69. 69.

    Brian R.

    August 6, 2012 at 10:42 pm

    @amk:

    Great, now I have an image of Adelson’s taint. Thanks.

  70. 70.

    Brian R.

    August 6, 2012 at 10:43 pm

    @ODB:

    Well done.

  71. 71.

    Brian R.

    August 6, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    @Thomas F:

    Logic games are fun.

    Once you get a grasp on logic, get back to us.

    Romney has iron-clad proof on this matter in the form of his tax returns. To use your awful analogy, Obama would have to be sitting on videotapes of his work on those exams or something.

    This really isn’t that hard, but please, continue to tie yourself in knots over it. The rest of the country will be over here pointing and laughing.

  72. 72.

    MikeJ

    August 6, 2012 at 10:55 pm

    @Brian R.: Obama does have his transcripts he could release, but it;’s really not needed. He graduated magna cum laude. Not what would happen to anyone caught cheating.

  73. 73.

    Keith G

    August 6, 2012 at 10:57 pm

    The truly beautiful thing about what Sen Harry has done is that what he said does not have to be true. So, fact checking is of no strategic importance.

    It is a ploy, a trick, a goof. It is an “in your face” tease. Here, Reid is not being Dirty Harry. He is being Bugs Bunny. He is being a wascally wabbit to Mitt’s Elmer Fudd. The more the GOP or others complain, the more people get to contemplate Romney’s financial choices.

    The only thing that gives me a bit of pause is the tendency that the GOP has of taking things that the Dems have done, multiplying it by 1000, and using it to club the Democrats senseless. as they do the same thing as payback.

  74. 74.

    karen marie

    August 6, 2012 at 11:07 pm

    @Mister Harvest: Maybe the taxes Romney is talking about are foreign taxes.

    How come I get fired when I screw up like the morons at Politifact instead of bringing home The Big Bucks?

    So how does someone in the top 3 percent of America’s income earners finagle their income tax burden down to zero? For the majority of them, it’s all about donating to charity, investing in local and state governments, earning money overseas and writing off doctor bills.

  75. 75.

    Ed Drone

    August 6, 2012 at 11:19 pm

    @xian:

    Mitt’s big-ass IRA…

    That IRA troubles me a lot. The rules for IRAs say that the upper limit is $6000 per person per year. Since the overage from that point is tax-free, being in an IRA, it seems to me that Rmoney must owe taxes on every penny over that $6000 limit. Tell me why he doesn’t owe, please.

    Even with a low rate, the taxes on $100,000,000 – $60,000 (assuming 10 years of the IRA) would pay down the national debt a good chunk, I’d think. And the PENALTIES on those dollars wouldn’t hurt (US) anyway.

    So can someone make sense of this?

    Ed

  76. 76.

    LesGS

    August 6, 2012 at 11:21 pm

    @efgoldman: Marduk was the Babylonian’s head dude. Ba’al just sort of means “lord,” so yes, a ba’al Hammon was the chief god in Carthage.

  77. 77.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 11:22 pm

    @karen marie:

    writing off doctor bills.

    Naah. An individual can only deduct medical expenses to the extent that they exceed 7.5 percent of AGI. This only happens if one is very poor or very ill.

  78. 78.

    Redshift

    August 6, 2012 at 11:35 pm

    @Ed Drone:

    Tell me why he doesn’t owe, please.

    The limit is just on what you put into it, not on the value it grows to. The most plausible explanation I’ve heard is that Bain structured the shares in some of their deals to be part high-priced “preferred” shares, and part low-priced shares that were supposedly riskier. Since they were the ones determining the share prices, the low-priced shares could have been undervalued (not as risky), so employees could put them in their IRAs and have them increase in value massively when the company was sold.

    I may be remembering some of the details incorrectly, and IANA financial professional, but the general idea is an arrangement that is technically legal, obviously goes against the spirit of the IRA law, and also obviously something that ordinary investors would never be able to do. There are probably other possibilities, but they would probably all fit that description, which is why Mitt would rather we don’t find out exactly how it happened.

  79. 79.

    horatius

    August 6, 2012 at 11:41 pm

    @BGinCHI: She can always catch gastritis later. Retroactively.

  80. 80.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 11:44 pm

    @Ed Drone:

    A handful of observations re Romney’s IRA.

    (1) If, as seems likely, it was a SEP-IRA, then he could put in the lesser of $30K or 25 percent of his Schedule C income.

    (2) There is a pretty strong consensus among tax pros that what Romney must have done is to stuff his IRA full of deeply subordinated stock in risky (e.g., heavily leveraged) ventures, and value it for tax purposes using a liquidation-value approach. If that stock had little or no right to share in corporate assets if the enterprise was liquidated on the valuation date, but had a big right to share in future appreciation (if any), all you need to do to get the value down right close to zero is be a teeny bit aggressive on the discount rate that is used to value future cash flows. This is plain-vanilla tax planning for hedge fund and private equity guys. Statutes of limitation have probably run on every year prior to 2008.

    (3) Romney hasn’t avoided any tax on the earnings in his IRA. All he has done is taken maximum advantage of the same deferral that you and I get on earnings in our IRAs. The minimum distribution rules (Internal Revenue Code Section 401(a)(9)) kick in in the year that he turns 70 1/2, and he will have to start taking it out and paying tax on it.

  81. 81.

    Chris T.

    August 6, 2012 at 11:47 pm

    Of course Romney paid taxes! He has so much money in foreign bank accounts, there can be no doubt some of those foreign governments made him pay them some taxes!

  82. 82.

    Ajay

    August 6, 2012 at 11:50 pm

    @Ed Drone:

    You are correct that 6000 IRA limit is what an individual is allowed to contribute to. An IRA can have assets from other retirement plans from previous jobs, including 401(k), Sep-IRA etc, which have higher than $6000 limit.

    Regardless, this cant reach the amount Romney currently has in IRA. However I am pretty certain he didnt do anything illegal. I am certain he did the following: instead of putting cash in retirement account, he put highly depressed stock of the companies that Bain owned in the account. Very likely he knew that stock is artifically depressed. Penny stock that he had in his retirement plan than jumped many folds as those companies were bought out etc. Thats why you see the amount as large as 100Million+ in the IRA.

    He basically is playing the system. Congress should have had a limit on max amount in a retirement account(perhaps few millions) as it was meant for retirement for an individual. Since there is no limit, Romney can have billions in his IRA and its all ok.

    It doesnt make him crook, but simply someone who is taking advantage of loopholes and shows he has no idea or concern with what it takes to run a country. He thinks running a country is like running a hedge fund.

  83. 83.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    @Chris T.:

    there can be no doubt some of those foreign governments made him pay them some taxes!

    That’s not necessarily true. It is not uncommon in bilateral tax treaties for the source country to cede exclusive jurisdiction to tax interest, dividends, and royalties to the residence country. However, in Romney’s case we know he paid some foreign tax in 2010 because it says so on the return, and we know he paid some foreign tax in 2009 because he carried unused foreign tax credits over to 2010.

  84. 84.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 6, 2012 at 11:53 pm

    Dennis Moore Dennis Moore riding through the moor
    Dennis Moore Dennis Moore on his horse Concorde
    He robs from the poor and gives to the rich
    Stupid bitch

  85. 85.

    burnspbesq

    August 6, 2012 at 11:59 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Fail.

    It’s “Dennis Moore, Dennis Moore, galloping through the sward.” “Moor” doesn’t rhyme with “Concorde.”

  86. 86.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2012 at 12:01 am

    @burnspbesq:

    Well, I could have just looked it up in “All the Words”, but I was being lazy.

    I’d say something else, but I’ll let others do it for me.

  87. 87.

    Dean Booth

    August 7, 2012 at 12:06 am

    What Reid said is similar to 90% of reporting today: “A source close to X, who wishes to remain anonymous because duh, says that X is __________.” PFact seems, then, to be saying that 90% of reporting is pants-on-fire worthy. Being gossipy drivel is different from being false.

    P.S. Give ’em hell, Harry!

  88. 88.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 7, 2012 at 12:13 am

    @Dean Booth:

    That was pretty much the thrust of the humor-impaired dipshit that is Richard Cohen of Kaplan Prep Daily.

    Suddenly, Harry Reid is despicable for using the same technique that the Village does when a source doesn’t want to be identified.

  89. 89.

    burnspbesq

    August 7, 2012 at 12:22 am

    Sigh.

    Rachel is playing “a plague on both your houses” riffs on Harry Reid.

  90. 90.

    Liam

    August 7, 2012 at 12:26 am

    But Romney’s recent income has been substantially higher than $200,000, meaning that the size of his deductions and credits would need to be even larger than for many of those included in this IRS study if his tax liability was going to fall to zero.

    Yeah, he’d have to do something totally crazy and unpossible like donate millions of dollars a year to a religious organization of some kind.

  91. 91.

    Toschek

    August 7, 2012 at 12:32 am

    I fucking give up. I’m just gonna vote D, give money and I’m done with this blog shit.

    Seriously guys, get out, get some air, be happy.

    Kessler, politifact, all this shit. You’re wasting your lives and you’ll regret it one day.

    Peace.

  92. 92.

    Pinkamena Panic

    August 7, 2012 at 12:51 am

    @Toschek: Your concern, she is noted, mon ami.

  93. 93.

    El Cid

    August 7, 2012 at 12:53 am

    @Toschek:

    You’re wasting your lives and you’ll regret it one day.

    Ha! Shows what you know. Many of us regret it right now, and will continue doing so.

  94. 94.

    Shygetz

    August 7, 2012 at 12:54 am

    By the same logic, shouldn’t they require Romney to back up his claim that he paid all taxes he was legally required, and give him a “Pants on Fire” rating until he does? I mean, both sides etc.

  95. 95.

    eemom

    August 7, 2012 at 1:07 am

    @burnspbesq:

    Rachel is playing “a plague on both your houses” riffs on Harry Reid.

    What, this shit is STILL going down? I thought I made it clear 8 hours ago that the Harry Reid concern trolls can go fuck themselves.

  96. 96.

    xyzxyzxyz

    August 7, 2012 at 1:33 am

    I can’t get past the first couple of sentences at PolitiWhatever that claim Reid states that Romney payed no taxes. That’s not what Reid said. End of discussion….you’re f*cking wrong. I’d make some snide comment that journalists should take courses in logic, but that would be giving the lame f*cks at PolitiWhatever the courtesy of being labeled journalists. Just wait for the next Romney f*ck up where they will parse his words to be “half truth”. They’re from Tampa, right? Global warming can’t come fast enough for these f*cks to drown. One thing came of this, another $250 to Obama. Sorry. There are a lot of f*ucks in that…but golly they make me mad!

  97. 97.

    Hart Williams

    August 7, 2012 at 9:13 am

    PolitiFact:

    “Harry Reid really has to put up or shut up,” Romney said following a speech in North Las Vegas, Nev., according to CBS News. Romney added, “Let me also say, categorically, I have paid taxes every year — and a lot of taxes. So Harry is simply wrong. And that is why I am so anxious for him to give us the names of the people who put this forward. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to hear the names are people from the White House or the Obama campaign.”

    This is reproduced uncritically, WITHOUT fact checking, because only ONE action can prove whether Harry Reid was right or wrong.

    Harry Reid is a liar who must “put up or shut up,” because he can’t be trusted, but Mitt Romney says, “trust me.” Is there something a wee bit amiss in this, when PolitiFact says “Harry Reid, you have not PROVEN your allegation,” and then reprints uncritically Romney saying “trust me”? Double standard much?

    PolitiFact does not hold Mitt Romney’s transparent lie, distortion and absurd assertion to ANY FACTUAL OR ETHICAL STANDARD WHATSOEVER.

    Ladies and germs, what we got here is a “fact checking” outfit that doesn’t fucking know what a “fact” IS.

  98. 98.

    The Other Bob

    August 7, 2012 at 9:35 am

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Steve Ratner said on MJ that the fact that Romney paid no taxes was not the issue, it was the fact that Romney paid no taxes LEGALLY was the issue.

    It is not only that Romney used legal means to pay little or no taxes, Romney wants to reduce his own taxes even further than current law. He wants to pay less taxes than his already ridiculous low sum. That is the real issue.

  99. 99.

    El Cid

    August 7, 2012 at 11:29 am

    @eemom: Rachel was not doing a “both sides” thing — she was mainly doing a piece on the amazing transformation of Harry Reid from field mouse to field cannon.

    She played the game by pointing out that Reid’s allegations had no proof behind them yet, and so were “irresponsible,” but (a) there was no indication to me that she seriously gave a shit, and (b) the prior show she had pointed out that Mitt Romney had done the same exact thing in his earlier races.

  100. 100.

    JasperL

    August 7, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    The discussion about taxes is a bit frustrating because most of the discussion is of “deductions” and IRAs and things ordinary Americans understand. That’s not likely how Romney might have gone years paying little if any federal income tax.

    The IRS has identified dozens of ways Romney might have avoided (legally) or evaded (illegally) taxes from his Bain gains. They’re called “listed transactions” and have names like BOSS, Son of BOSS, COBRA (a type of Son of Boss), and Subpart F Income Partnership Blocker. They are sham transactions that fit within the letter of the law but are engaged in solely to avoid or evade tax. Because they have no “economic substance” the IRS has succeeded in denying the tax benefits of many of these sham transactions. There is a list of them, the IRS updates this list regularly. The big accounting firms earned $millions of fees per taxpayer from marketing these techniques that often involved offshore accounts, and were often used by investors selling highly appreciated, closely held stock. And the transactions are what you’d expect from modern Wall Street, i.e. incomprehensible to the ordinary human being.

    Furthermore, the people engaging in them might not show up in the IRS databases as being one of the “Top 400” earners. The losses from the sham transactions wipe out actual gains, netting to a number of zero or close to it that would be reported as “income” to the IRS. Behind the reported “income” of approximately zero might be $10s or hundreds of millions in actual gains.

    So when Politifact uses the “income” data from IRS to examine the Reid claim, they’re being misleading at best because Romney’s reported income was ….likely near zero for the years in question. Worse, they, somewhat incredibly, can’t find a tax “expert” who has the slightest bit of insight into the ways the super wealthy avoid/evade US income taxes.

  101. 101.

    Cartman

    August 7, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    What am I missing?

    Politi”Fact” makes a baseless claim without any facts to back up their claim and then uses that baseless claim as the justification to claim that someone else who they claim made a baseless claim and doesn’t have facts to back up what they say is a ‘liar’.

    By Politi”Fact” standards, Politi”Fact” is a liar.

    And did I miss who wrote the smarmy Politi”Fact” attack on Harry Reid?

    An anonymous writer attacks Harry Reid’s anonymous source?

    Sleazy Tampa Bay Times and their Republican propaganda arm Politi”Fact” should be forever discredited, along with it’s journalists, editors, and owners.

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