I have to marvel at the cleverness of the latest effort from MS Bellows at the Guardian, who has related the Romney voter fraud issue (he voted in Massachusetts in 2010 even though he apparently didn’t live there) with Romney’s reluctance to release his taxes:
Many (many, many, many, many, many) theories have been advanced to explain why Romney keeps refusing to produce any returns prior to 2010, ranging from “voters might learn he’s wealthy” (which voters already know) to “he underpaid his church tithe” (doubtful).
None of them is really satisfactory, because none of them posits Romney concealing any facts more harmful than the blowback he is getting for not producing more returns. The problem may be that all of the prominent theories (with a couple of under-noticed exceptions) assume Romney is trying to conceal facts about his finances. Like the purloined letter pinned prominently in plain sight, what Romney’s really hiding might be something more mundane: the home address written on the top of the tax form. That address that might reveal a connection between the “tax returns” brouhaha and the “voter fraud” fizzle – which may be the strongest explanation of all.
While we’re on this endlessly fascinating topic, David Simon has a good piece pointing out that a 13% tax rate is outrageous even if it is true. Most of us have paid far more than that for the entirety of our adult lives.
Shawn in ShowMe
True dat, even Avon Barksdale paid that much once Stringer laundered the drug money.
JPL
I blame those lucky duckies who are supporting a family on 30,000. If they would just pay twenty percent in taxes, Mitt could afford another tax cut.
R. Porrofatto
The Romney/Ryan budget plans aims to ultimately do away with all estate, dividend, and capital gains taxes. Since they also want to drastically reduce taxes on corporate income (60% of corporations pay no taxes as it is), almost the entire tax burden of running the country will be shifted to wage income only, and that’s the intention.
So eventually, a Paris Hilton can inherit her hundreds of millions, have it earn millions in dividends and capital gains during her lifetime, and leave what would likely be an even larger estate to her children without paying a penny in taxes on any of that income, ever. And then it’s the kiddies’ turn. Perhaps someone in a profession of inquiry, say, journalism, might ask Romney or Ryan why the working incomes of office workers, teachers, service workers, etc. deserve to be taxed for the good of the country while the incomes of millionaires and billionaires are sacrosanct.
Remember what Leona Helmsley said, taxes are for the little people. It’s class warfare, folks, and guess who’s losing the war.
(Want to raise your blood pressure? Read Perfectly Legal by David Cay Johnston on how the ultra-wealthy manipulate the tax system designed by their bought and paid for legislators to avoid paying taxes right now, before any Romney-Ryan giveaways.)
Toni
In australia we pay much higher but i would like to learn more about usa taxes please explain
victory
While a lot of the Romney tax release issue is about transparency, a big chunk, IMO, is about extending the Bush tax cuts for all but the top bracket.
It’s harder for Republicans to fight against raising the top rate when Obama can point to Romney and say, “How is raising the top rate to Clinton era rate going to kill the economy when the top earners are already only playing 13%?”
Triassic Sands
@JPL:
Why be cheap? No tax cut is big enough for the job creators.
MattF
I can see why Romney isn’t releasing his tax returns. Releasing the returns will not end the questions about his wealth– it will only focus the questions and give them a factual basis. That’s why Harry Reid’s kick to the Romney testicular area was so effective– it was specific and factual.
arguingwithsignposts
@R. Porrofatto:
With a couple of notable historical exceptions, when have the non-wealthy not been losing the class war?
hep kitty
Anyone see the clip of the guy yelling at Ryan at a townhall: “why did you lie about accepting stimulus funds?” and then holds up his Romney/Ryan sign and rather dramatically rips it apart. On Ed Show last nite.
I want that in an ad.
HRA
I have not revealed what my thoughts were on why Romney was not offering more tax returns and now I see it in print. Anyone else would have known not to mess with the Brits.
Yes, 13% is outrageous. The point is none of us paying much much more cannot quit working. It’s our means of survival.
maya
Rmoney , and, his millions, are citizens of the world. They can vote wherever they damn feel like, for Pete’s sake.
Linda Featheringill
Question: Do US Representatives routinely release their financial information? I’ve read that Senators do.
If members of the House do release all of that, then Ryan’s release of the last two years covers him pretty well.
Doesn’t cover Romney, of course.
Triassic Sands
That was my reaction to Romney’s proud announcement about his tax rates. After all those years being self-employed and paying the full 15.3% for FICA (a bit less in earlier years), I compare that to Romney’s millions and his anemic tax rate and wonder, “Doesn’t this guy understand how bad it looks for him to have paid only 13%?” (Of course he doesn’t. He’s an entitled plutocrat with no conscience or empathy.)
The other thing I find outrageous is his attempt to inflate his perceived tax rate to 20% by saying “if you count my charitable contributions.”
WTF? No, Mitt you horrible idiot, I don’t count charitable contributions as taxes, especially since they’re deductible and allow you to pay even less in taxes. Not to mention the fact that they are mostly to a religious organization whose beliefs and policies I find ridiculous and don’t support at all. Worse still, since Romney’s income is primarily from investments, he doesn’t pay any FICA taxes on all those millions he rakes in without having to lift a finger, punch a time-clock, or work overtime to make ends meet.
George W. Bush: Worst President Ever
Mitt Romney: Worst Human Being Ever (who ran for president)
hep kitty
I haven’t commented on the whole voter fraud thing either because there has been so much focus on how much he did or didn’t pay, I had to wonder if I was just overreacting, but hey, it’s a huge deal.
Oh, but we keeping hearing about voter fraud being so prevalent, what’s one more? Even if he’s running for President. meh
dmsilev
@Linda Featheringill: Tax returns, no. There’s a financial disclosure thingy that provides a rough estimate of wealth, but it allows statements like “trust fund worth somewhere between 1 and 20 million dollars” so it’s only a very rough guide.
Linnaeus
My first question after I heard the 13% figure from Romney was, “13% of what?” Dollars to doughnuts it’s not 13% of his full income.
mai naem
I am so pissed off that the Dems are not out and out saying that this is shit that this ashsole only paid 13 percent. Are you fcuking kidding me? Seriously? This mofo left the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.holding the bag several times with his Bain ripoffs and he thinks it’s reasonable to pay thirteen fcuking percent? Then the mofo’s wife scrunches up her face real ugly when some brown skinned reporter asks her about the tax returns. And, Anne Romney seriously looked ugly, literally and figuratively in that interview. Anyhoo, getting back to the tax thing, this mofo uses this country’s court system to his benefit. His church uses this country to his benefit. He gets what we all get. Food regulation/FDA/INS/Education/Police etc. and furthermore, he gets more because he’s wealthier as far as free police checks for his house security system checks etc.
Sal
13% is low, but I doubt most people will get worked up about that. The general attitude is likely to be “Wish I could do that – would if I could”. The perceived level of tax complexity/arcaneness that allows Mitt to pay that rate is just seen as an example of strangling government bureaucracy typical of Washington. That Mitt is part of the class that’s created this system to game it for their own benefit, and would accelerate that gaming, is a hard argument for people to sustain, or at least personify in Mitt. It’s not that people don’t necessarily recognize the unfairness inherent in the system, it’s that they take it as a given.
Brian
Not to rain on the parade, but I doubt ‘Most’ of us have really paid an effective rate of 13%. As a DINK making well into the 100’s I am still a full percent below that with a very conservative estimate.
Charlie Dodgson
@Linnaeus:
True dat. If it was 13% of adjusted gross income, that makes me even more curious to know how much gross income was diverted, and by what means, into that astonishing $102 million IRA…
Tom The First
Here are my two pessimistic theories in which Romney really doesn’t have anything to hide in his taxes:
A) He’s playing rope-a-dope and goading the media and liberals into a lather about them, then releases them, everything is (relatively) kosher and says the equivalent of “happy now?”
B) He’s just a privileged prick who won’t stoop to answering the directives of the “little people.”
I don’t think either is likely… he’s probably hiding something, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s B.
burnspbesq
The amazing thing is that Romney considers himself over-taxed.
Palli
We know he falsely claimed Massachusetts residency to vote.
What is his address on the 1 and 1/2 years of tax records he has provided?
I know for me, Romney is the poster boy for the class war and his tax records will just show how many battle fronts the Class War should have.
A candidate for the presidency of a nation who has these vast stores of money doing nothing but making him more personal wealth must be pathologically disengaged from the conditions of the national economy and callously disrespectful to the society of American citizens (let alone the world). No wonder his campaign script is weak and limited.
rikyrah
he never says the 13 percent is FEDERAL INCOME TAXES.
neither he, nor Miss Ann EVER SAY FEDERAL INCOME TAX
Maude
The accounting firm of Ernst Young is saying that if the Bush Tax Cuts are removed, there will be I think it’s 700,000 jobs lost.
Romney owns the Ryan budget.
Palli
@Tom The First:
B is a given.
R. Porrofatto
@arguingwithsignposts:
Almost never, but there have been times when the destructive impact of wealth and greed has been tempered for the common good, almost entirely through pressure brought upon and through government. We have child labor and minimum wage laws, for example, but it took a lot of fighting (and in some cases, dying) to acquire enough power to force the issue. The political strength of the middle class in this country peaked in the 50’s and paralleled the rise of labor unions. The more recent evisceration of labor unions and the pitting of workers against each other has left the majority of the country powerless against the forces of greed, to the point where they want to do to child labor and minimum wage laws what they did to banking protections like Glass-Steagall.
In countries where workers have a modicum of power — Germany, Sweden, France, etc. — quality of life for middle- and working-classes are much better than here, and the class war, if not winnable, is at least capable of being fought.
Sorry, I seem to have prattled on.
Greg
@Brian:
If true, you are very unusual. Most people in your position are paying closer to 16% as an effective rate.
See here: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/18/us/effective-income-tax-rates.html
mai naem
@Brian: My guess is that that’s between your mortgage tax deduction and your 401k and whatever your retirement stuff. Purely guessing on my part. You aren’t going to have your retirement deductions forever and you aren’t going to have your mortgage deduction forever either. Mitt outright owns his homes and he’s beyond the 401k/retirement stuff. BTW, Mitt still says taxes not federal taxes so for all we know this is state, property and federal taxes. Furthermore, you aren’t running for president. Mitt’s been running for essentially eight years.
Hill Dweller
@Maude: Is that jobs figure for all the Bush tax cuts expiring, or just capping the tax cuts at income $250,000 and below?
Matt McIrvin
He may be thinking that this is just some inverted version of birtherism: if he releases ten years’ worth of returns we’ll just ask for twenty years, or demand that he get the originals back from the IRS, or produce a version with different kerning, or do some other kind of dance for our amusement. Better to show strength by just refusing.
Except… if that’s so, why does he keep bringing it up?? Obama never made that mistake, unless he was making a joke or something.
I think he’s basically just a very, very rich man who also happens to be a really bad presidential candidate.
hep kitty
OT, but I just found out that my account with Old Navy has gone into collection. Why? Because they fucked up my address and I never received a statement.
My initial balance: 12.50
My current balance: 12.50 + finance charges + late fees = $126.00
Kristin
I consider it a major victory that the kerfuffle caused Romney to admit the 13% number. That, in itself, has me really fired up.
hep kitty
Oh and fuck these people who don’t seem to give a damn about Romney’s taxes. They are the ones who whinge on and on about taxes. So, you know, how do regular Americans who pay much more feel about that, in terms of fairness?
So sorry that we just had to bring this to the forefront, republicans. I’m so sorry it hurts your feelings but, you know, you kinda started this whole thing after all.
Hill Dweller
@Matt McIrvin:
This is what made the Obama campaign’s request for just 5 years of returns so clever. They told the Willard campaign if their boss released 5 years of returns, they would stop talking about his returns all together.
The Obama campaign knew Willard would still say no, completely undermining his purported concern.
dmsilev
@Brian: I just checked my return from last year, and I’m paying 15%. That’s federal income tax divided by total income (not AGI). Of course, the total tax payment is higher than that due to SS/Medicare/state taxes/etc. Since Romney’s income is primarily non-wage, his SS/Medicare tax payments are going to be a tiny fraction of his total load, which will be conveniently forgotten in any discussions of this sort emanating from the MSM.
mai naem
@Tom The First: I used to think that but there is no way you are going to let it go on this long. There is no way you would hide behind your wife’s skirts. No, the way Anne talked there’s something pretty awful, nomination killing info in those tax returns.
Davis X. Machina
And why wouldn’t he? He’s running as the nominee of a party that would like to zero out capital gains taxes, corporate income taxes, and estate taxes.
Wages, not so much. If you’ve got wage income, there’s something wrong with you. Because work is, Genesis tells us, a punishment for sin.
wrb
My newest theory is related to this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/17/opinion/in-thrall-to-sheldon-adelson.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&
Dude is compromised, and not just just with Adelson.
If he’s willing to openly embrace someone as dirty as Adelson, what has he been willing to for a buck in private?
Goes back to the “the only morality is stockholder profit” MBA/Vulture Capitalist ethos.
Lolis
@hep kitty:
You can try reporting it to the Consumer protection agency run by Cordroy.
Brian
@mai naem: No yea it is totally the mortgage deduction and state and property taxes that bring me down, and I wish they’d just remove the mortgage interest deduction. But saying most when I earn almost 3x the median household income is probably wrong.
Bill Arnold
@Brian:
but I doubt ‘Most’ of us have really paid an effective rate of 13%
Brian
@Greg: Yes Most people in my position, but most people aren’t in my position, so I am guessing most people are paying well below by 12% effective. I am fortunate to have the income I have and live in a high cost living area (if you count that as fortunate) so my Mortgage interest and property taxes take a lot off the top.
mai naem
@hep kitty: If you let it wait long enough in collections, they’ll offer you the forty percent of the balance deal, just make sure you get a signed deal on the forty percent deal or they’ll flip it to another collection agency and you’ll be back at square one. I had a situation with Discover which started with the annual fee which I didn’t pay because I didn’t use the card and I wasn’t even checking the statements because I figured it was 0. Ended up getting to $200+ and I let it go to collections because I thought it was crazy. Paid the 40 percent because I didn’t want it on my credit report. OMG. Will never get a Discover card again!
Mike
Just for the hell of it, I looked at my taxes from last year – federal income tax + FICA considerably more than 13%. Then I thought, should I add in state income tax (5%), does Mitt pay that? Of course not! He chooses the state to file where there is no state income tax.
Eric U.
Excluding SS taxes from this is improper, I think.
raising SS taxes back in ’83 and using the proceeds to pay for income tax reductions for the rich was an act of genius. So the little guy is now paying half of Romney’s tax rate in SS taxes alone. More than Romney if you recognize that the employer’s half of SS taxes really come out of your pay. My wife and I hit the income level where they start taking away tax benefits but are still paying full boat on SS. We’re comfortable, but I think Romney should be paying at least as much as I am.
leinie (iPad)
@Triassic Sands: This. That bullshit line about charity is just such insulting crap.
Your religion is a choice, Mittwit. If you are counting your tithing as charitable, I disagree. You don’t pay tithing cuz you think it’s going to help someone else, you pay tithing to help YOU. Your God says it must be paid, and your temple recommend and place in the Celestial Kingdom depend upon it. All that means you pay it for your own selfish reasons. Plus, your Church doesn’t toil in poverty because it gives everything away to the needy, that is one damned wealthy corporation that the Presiding Bishop has (or whatever they are calling it these days.)
Your charitable contributions in no way make up for the outrageous belief you have that taxes are for others, and you’ll enjoy all the benefits of the commons without actually having to contribute to them.
1badbaba3
@Kristin: …and into the trap he goes…
hep kitty
@Lolis: Thanks, I’ll make a note of that. I’m trying to get this pain in the ass resolved b/w the agency and Old Navy but if I have to pay the rest and/or it affects my credit rating I’ll definitely take it further.
It’s just absurd that I have to expend more time and energy to fix this thing than they do or will, and it was their mistake to begin with. You have to go through all that automated shit and by the time you get to a real person you find yourself yelling at some person who is making $7.00 and hour and whose job it is to get screamed at.
I was a little upset, to say the least but I apologized to the girl for getting so upset and told I knew she was just doing her job and it was not her fault. I actually have never gotten that upset.
But it totally pisses me off that you are actually set up to be furious by the time you get through to someone and then they have to take the heat. I don’t WANT to get that mad. I’m normally a very compassionate person!
Fucking free market my white ass.
One of my first thoughts was that I sure wish CPB would do something about this shit.
Palli
if people had any self-respect at all and cared a grain about the world we live in
hep kitty
@leinie (iPad): I want to know what they do with that money besides putting kids on bikes to hunt down lonely people and lie to them. Do they help poor people, what else do they do?
WJS
I think this is the real deal. The Obama campaign evidently picked up some hint that there’s the possibility of voter fraud and that’s why they reduced their request to cover 2009 and 2010 so that they could correlate that with Romney’s voting record.
There’s also a Romney vacation home in New Hampshire–how hilarious would it be if THAT was the address used on his taxes instead of a legal one in Massachusetts?
Roger Moore
@burnspbesq:
I’m sure he thinks that anything is too much. Got to drown government in that bathtub, after all.
wrb
@Eric U.:
It sure would be easy to eliminate this entitlements “crisis” by eliminating the $110,000 cap on the income that is taxed and maybe instituting some means testing.
POOF! Horrible, dreadful crisis all gone.
Maude
@Hill Dweller:
What I heard was raising taxes. I’ve heard it before. It may be at Bloomberg.com. I heard it on Bloomberg radio.
It’s the old job creator junk.
Roger Moore
@hep kitty:
They build, maintain, and staff giant edifices to their religion. The spend it on trying to take right away from gays. They invest a big chunk of it in all kinds of money making ventures. And a little bit of it gets spent on actual charity for poor Mormons.
hep kitty
An observation about cleaning up after rich people, specifically bathrooms, by Barbara Ehrenreich, when she worked undercover for a maid service. After a paragraph on cleaning their revolting toilets (which I will spare you):
GregB
@WJS:
NH has no income tax which would certainly make a tax dodger like Mitt inclined to use that as his primary residence.
mamayaga
@wrb:
Actually, there already is some means testing in both SS and Medicare. If you are a retiree with income over a certain amount (I think ~$70K) you have to pay income taxes on up to 80% of your SS payments. In Medicare, if your income is over ~$80K you pay more for your monthly Part B premium. First year after I retired I paid the tax on SS because I’d had payments from my former employer in the previous year.
geg6
@Brian:
Never married, no kids, can’t and never could afford to do other than rent. I make tens of thousands less than $100k. I actually sat down and, using a tool on the Obama website, calculated my rate at 18%. And that didn’t include my SS/Medicare taxes, state taxes, local taxes, or sales taxes. The fact that anyone who makes that much more than me, whether tens of thousands more like you or billions more like Mittens, is a fucking disgrace. And that’s without even getting into how pissed I am that these people plan to cut off Medicare to people born after 1957 and I was born in 1958. I’ve paid into SS/Medicare since I was 14 years old and these entitled bastards want to take that away from me with an $8k coupon?
eyelessgame
Huh. I didn’t pay >13% until fairly recently. The first year I made over $100K, I paid less than $7000 in federal income tax. Federal income tax is scandalously low.
leinie (iPad)
@hep kitty: Oh, those kids on bikes pay for the priviledge of hunting you down. It gets subsidized now, but they pay. I have a nephew doing that right now, and he had to save for it. I thought saving for college would be a better use of those funds, but I’m just the atheist black sheep in a family of Mormons, so what do I now?
Roger nailed a good chunk of it, but the Mormon church is very secretive about what they do with their money, and I’ve been out of it for a while. Part of it goes to their buildings, but I can also remember as a teenager doing fundraisers to help raise money for an addition to our building, so I don’t know if they now fully fund that stuff or not. I’m pretty sure they have asserted that their new multi million dollar retail property development in downtown SLC wasn’t tithing funded but as Mitt has amply proven, upper echelons of Mormon hierarchy lie, so I don’t believe them.
Steve
@Brian: I guess it’s the mortgage. My income starts with the same number as yours, but I rent and my rate is twice Romney’s.
Jay in Oregon
@hep kitty:
This is an article linked to in an earlier thread:
How the Mormons Make Money
Ben Franklin
Don’t think this has come up at BJ….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/17/mitt-romney-tax-returns-voter-fraud-theory
If Romney is guilty of voter fraud, game over.
Living in his son’s basement? HAR !
The Dangerman
Romney’s a lawyer and not completely stupid…
…so why would he commit a felony just to vote for Scott Brown? Not buying this explanation; 2009 amnesty (that McCain didn’t see) makes much more sense.
eyelessgame
My federal income tax, the first year I made >$100K, was under $4000.
My tax return from around 2002, let me show you it.
(well, let me show you fictional numbers that are close to representational. I’m not running for office, for Pete’s sake.)
$100000 Salary of single income, married, three children.
$ 89000 Deduct $11K for 401K
$ 74000 Self, spouse, three kids: $15K standard deduction
$ 62000 Home mortgage interest deduction, $1K/mo
$ 60000 Pretax medical expenses of $2K
$ 56000 Charitable donations of $4K
$56000 on tax tables becomes $6900 federal income tax.
But wait. $1000/child tax credit.
$3900 federal income tax owed on a salary of $100K.
Our. Taxes. Are. Too. Fucking. Low. It’s not just millionares. We. Are. A. Nation. Of. Goddamn. Whiners about taxes.
amk
@The Dangerman: That’s my take too. mittbot’s tax rate or voter fraud is not the real issue here, real to make a big difference that is. He did a criminal act and got the amnesty for it. Whether that disqualifies him from contesting is the question. But since the Obama campaign is pressing with it, mebbe they have something on this we do not know about.
Davis X. Machina
@The Dangerman: Dude, he did it for a bro. It’s a bro thing. Sacred.
Roger Moore
@Steve:
That’s the big thing, but not the only thing. Once you get a mortgage, you have enough deductions to make it worth itemizing, and then you suddenly get some real value from your charitable contributions, state and local tax deduction, etc. The worst part is that it doesn’t actually do that much for housing affordability. Everyone can get it, so it just drives bidding wars rather than making housing much more affordable.
Ben Franklin
@The Dangerman:
Indeedy. My snark needs polishing.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Brian:
I think you’re making a mistake common with higher-income people in that you’re assuming that people who make less money than you do pay less of their income in taxes. In fact, middle-income earners pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes because they aren’t eligible for the tax breaks you get.
The people paying a lower percentage of their income in taxes than you do are almost certainly making more than you, because that’s how our system is currently set up.
Amir Khalid
@Ben Franklin:
Already discussed in a previous thread.
hep kitty
@leinie (iPad): They are pretty secretive about themselves in general, aren’t they? Just what goes on in the temples and their beliefs.
It wasn’t so long ago, the last 2 elections I believe, Dem candidates were regularly grilled on their faith.
And we’re not supposed to ask about Mormonism or the financial dealings of the church. So much as breathe a word about it and you will be struck down on both sides for being a bigot. You make a good point, and I think it’s all very relevant to the election.
Amazing, it was so terribly relevant, so crucial to the media, those last two elections, to crawl inside the brains of every Democratic candidate with regard to their religious beliefs. The republicans, not so much.
The Dangerman
If I’m reading my history right, the 2009 Amnesty was the result of an agreement in August 2009 with UBS…
…so, inside of 8 months in office, did Obama cut Romney’s balls off with this amnesty deal? Now, THAT’S some 11D chess.
hep kitty
I think you tried to inject logic in there which was your first mistake :)
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
No, sorry, already being discussed in this very thread.
pseudonymous in nc
There’s that old, true, line that it’s expensive to be poor, because you can’t afford to take advantage of bulk discounts or buy things that are made to last.
Being part of the working poor also means you don’t get the tax bennies aimed to keep the middle class happy (mortgage/health/charitable) let alone those for the capital-gains class, in spite of the guff spewed out about moochers and parasites. You also have a higher relative burden from sales taxes. The US tax system is still set up so that the people who can most afford to pay have the best chance to avoid doing so. Because jarb cree-ay-turrs and shit.
Patriots pay their share.
hep kitty
@Ben Franklin: This, again. Not that I don’t think it’s a major issue, but we can move off the subject of taxes. What will the whiners have to whine about then? Voter fraud? Now, not so much?
hitchhiker
This is such a beautiful thing.
Simple message: The system is rigged, the system is rigged, the system is rigged. Rich people have paid lobbyists to rig the system so that they stay rich no matter what they do. Romney is the problem, not the solution. He won’t let us see his taxes because that’s what they would show. We can’t trust him.
I mean, it’s fun to speculate about what’s in those returns, but in the end it doesn’t really matter. That simple message is the subtext of the whole conversation, and one of the reasons Ds are so happy to keep talking about it.
catclub
@eyelessgame: I thought medical expenses are only deductible if greater than 7.5% of AGI.
Or is that the amount that is above the 7.5% of AGI?
Of course, when you say that that $100k is the income of a family of five, No one expects the tax rate on it to be the same as for an individual filer.
You also did not include the 7.5% FICA tax.
WereBear
I know, we have heavy medical expenses, not much money, and we still don’t reach the point where we can deduct it.
GregB
@hitchhiker:
The whole GOP argument is predicated on the idea that the rich are paying too much in taxes and the people below are not sharing the burden.\
Mitt Romney lays waste to that concept.
wrb
@hep kitty:
I sure as hell don’t see why.
One religion affects how one will act. Mormons should get no more of a pass than those rooting for firey death an rapture. It matters.
I think that so far people have been far to gentle about the Mormonism thing.
eyelessgame
@catclub:
Elision. It represents $2000 in a flexible-spending plan.
you’re right I left out FICA. But that’s a different collection box from “federal income tax”. It’s not part of the “income tax rate” that everyone talks about and that Congress lowers every time a Republican makes noise. Also, FICA taxes are not too low. :)
I’ve known smart (but underemployed) people who wanted a “flat tax, no deductions” because they thought they were paying too much income tax, who I had to *show* them, on their 1040EZ, that they were in fact paying zero federal income tax. (They were part of the 47% and didn’t know it, see.)
hitchhiker
@GregB:
Yes, their tactic has been to convince the middle economic strata that poor people are the ones who’ve successfully worked the system. (See, Queen, welfare)
Funny thing happened as a result . . . the wealthy actually did rig the system. Their income grew at 7 times the rate at which middle class income grew in the last 30 years. Then the economy blew up, and a lot of people who used to be middle class fell off a cliff. Those arguments about what poor people get away with are less compelling when it’s you or your kids or your parents who suddenly are trying to figure out how to make ends meet.
Simple message that is the inversion of the one they’ve been selling: The system is rigged in favor of the rich, because they paid lobbyists to make it that way.. Romney is the problem, not the solution. We can’t trust him.
Waynski
@R. Porrofatto:
Not at all. I thought you tackled a complex subject quite succinctly.
Smiling Mortician
Yes, but it becomes less outrageous the more it’s bandied about, ironically. People get used to it. I wonder if Mitt’s plan with his stonewalling and then squeezing out unverified claims like the 13% rate is a way to soften up the ground so that the ultimate revelation (if it comes) is greeted with, “Well, it’s not that much worse than 13%, after all . . .”
JPL
@eyelessgame: My son makes more than 100,000 and owns his own home and he only paid sixteen percent. He dittos your sentiment. We have become a nation of anti-government whiners.
OT..Earlier today I found this comparison of the candidates medicare plans at the Washington Post.. link
It was on the front web page but someone must have complained cuz now you can only find in using the search engine. Must’n highlight the plans you know.
Shawn in ShowMe
What’s the likelihood that releasing several years worth of federal tax returns would have become a tradition of George Romney hadn’t started it? I’m thinking slim and none. George Romney, when he was running AMC, used to give back part of his salary and bonus when he thought they were too high. Mitt hides millions overseas so he doesn’t have to share a dime with the American worker. He shrieks in horror at the term ‘income taxes”.
When I imagine what Mitt and his father’s relationship must have been like, I think of the elevator scene in Wall Street where Charlie Sheen blows up at his dad for defending the union workers instead of betraying them. Mitt must think his father was a complete sap. If he wasn’t George Romney’s son he would be free to say so. But he is George Romney’s son so the optics would be horrible.
Brachiator
@R. Porrofatto:
Johnston’s books and articles are essential reading for anyone who wants to get a clear idea of how the tax system works, and how it has been skewed to benefit the wealthy. He may also have a blog or website with shorter articles. All essential reading.
BTW, I recall reading that Paris Hilton is not in line to inherit big bucks from the Hilton Estate. She actually has to work for a living, and although she often gets no respect, she has demonstrated much more savvy and resilience than someone like Lindsay Lohan, who seems intent on squandering her talents, and is much less dishonest than Donald Trump.
Kristin
@eyelessgame:
If you don’t have kids and a mortgage, you’re pretty much screwed. I know from experience.
forked tongue
When can we start referring to him as “probable two-time felon Mitt Romney”?
quannlace
And in my experience, the rich are the shittiest tippers. Especially the dudes.
Emma
@Brachiator: I never thought I would hear myself say it, but Paris Hilton has parlayed her name into an empire, while, it seems, keeping a sense of humor and a sense of proportion about her own importance. Mitt’s litter could take lessons.
Origuy
@WereBear: I think his “pretax medical expenses” are contributions to a Flexible Spending Account. These accounts can be used for things that insurance doesn’t cover, like deductibles, co-pays, etc. The problem with these is that you have to estimate what you’ll need at the beginning of the year, and anything left over, you lose. It worked out great the year I needed a dental implant. The previous year, not so much.
WereBear
@Origuy: Thanks, I get it. So, it’s another Republican scam based on perfect knowledge and eerie prescience that they claim everyone should have?
Shoulda known.
JGabriel
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mistermix @ top:
Why must we settle on only one theory of why Mitt won’t show us his taxes? Can’t they all be true?
It makes much more sense to me that Mitt is afraid of publishing his 2009 address, while having it confirmed that he committed voter fraud, took tax amnesty in 2009, paid 0% or less in taxes some years, and cheats on his tithing.
Can all these theories get along? Why can’t they be friends?
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Ruckus
@The Dangerman:
Isn’t possible once again to be the last choice, all of the above? Asshole lies about everything else and with ease. I’m not giving him credit for doing anything correct. One doesn’t hire gangs of lawyers and tax accountants to find ways to do what most people do. You do that to figure out how not to do what most people do. You do that to get away with whatever you can. Read it some where that his tax return(the one released) is over 200 pages. I used to file returns for my corp with lots of capital equipment and even with all the different depreciation schedules it ran something like 20 pages. Of course my income wasn’t even in the same galaxy as mittens.
A side note. I once asked my accountant how to avoid paying so much in taxes. He said no problem. It would cost me twice as much to prepare and when, not if, I got audited, he would win every battle. But the cost would be more than the taxes so just pay your fucking taxes and be a good citizen. It was very good advice.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
Her future is at least a bit up in the air. Great Grandpa Conrad tried to give away the family fortune in his will, but Grandpa Baron successfully contested the will. Now that Baron is getting on in years, he’s apparently decided that Conrad had a good idea about giving the family fortune to charity, but he’s applying his own experience and giving it away while he’s still alive and can defend his plans to do so.
That said, my impression is that he’s not leaving the family completely on their own. I think he’s saving a small percentage (but still substantial sum) for his descendants. I get the impression that Paris has some kind of trust fund or other arrangement so she won’t be completely destitute if her own endeavors don’t pan out. And I’m pretty sure that the dumb blonde act really is an act; she’s sharper under that exterior than she’s letting on.
ETA: My reason for paying attention is that my building at work was endowed by the Conrad Hilton Foundation. There’s always a hope that there’s more where that came from, especially if the family patriarch is giving away most of the fortune.
JGabriel
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Origuy:
I don’t know if it’s part of PPACA or was instituted earlier, but I don’t think you lose over-contributions to health care savings accounts anymore. I believe they either roll over, or you can pull them out and pay the taxes on them.
Can anyone with tax experience confirm or refute? JMN? Bueller?
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? Martin
@quannlace:
The best way to get and stay rich is to not spend money. The rich know this better than anyone. They are the worst economic drivers because they take VASTLY more of each dollar out of the economy.
The optimal macro situation is that all debt is against appreciating assets (so no car loans, no credit card debt, just mortgages, college loans, business loans) that everyone has savings just enough to prevent non-appreciating debt (so even poor people have at least a few months of savings and a minimal but sufficient retirement account, and rich people don’t have $100M IRAs) and all other income gets spent.
Poor people are currently bad economic drivers because they lose too much of their income to the financial system – fees, credit card interest, etc. and rich people are equally bad economic drivers because they divert too much to that same system, where is performs almost no economic work. Honest to god, it’s the middle class that have the balance just right – they don’t earn too much that they just hoard money, and they don’t earn too little that the vampire financial system bleeds them dry.
Yutsano
@JGabriel: It’s not really a tax issue, but it was announced at my work last year that at least some of the HSA plans being offered were no longer use or lose. I can’t imagine that going over very well with the HSA holder, after all if you didn’t use it they just kept the money.
Thoughtcrime
@JGabriel:
Unused portions of HSA accounts roll over. You don’t want to pull cash out because then you’ll pay a distribution penalty in addition to taxes.
“Funds can be withdrawn for any reason using checks and debit cards, however any withdrawls that are not used for qualified medical expenses are subject to a 20% penalty as well as income taxes. The 20% penalty is waived for people age 65 and older or those who have become disabled. Income taxes still apply in these situations but there are no additional penatlies. These rules are very similar to the ones governing other tax sheltered accounts such as IRAs.
Any funds withdrawn for qualified medical expenses are always tax free. You must however keep documentation pertaining to all qualifed medical purchases. A lack of documentation can be grounds for the IRS to rule that funds were not used for qualified medical expenses and the account holder would be subject to additional penalties.
When an account holder dies, the funds transfer to the beneficiary designated on the account. If a surviving spouse is the beneficiary, the funds will transfer on a tax free basis.”
Ruckus
@eyelessgame:
Our tax system was designed by Rube Goldberg. Take layer upon layer of crap so that few knows how it works and those with money can hire people to finagle their way through it and save them from paying evil taxes.
I’m not arguing for a flat tax at all, we need progressive taxation, but maybe a discussion of the numbers and questioning why and how we use taxes as a social policy control might be nice.
Cermet
If asswipe romeny released his taxes that included the year they had the amnesty program for illegal tax havens, then he’d be toast – period. That is the sole reason and why he will NEVER release his full returns further than the year after that program. Even his base would have a shit fit if he was guilty of tax evasion and used an amnesty program to get away with it. That is why Obama used the five years because it covers the amnesty program.
BobS
@amk: That’s what I’ve been thinking. After all, the IRS is a part of the federal government that Obama sits at the top of.
bemused
I was just reading some excerpts to DH from the Guardian article and he said maybe Mitt was actually living in Kenya.
Yutsano
@Ruckus: Canada does not have a mortgage interest income tax deduction, yet they have near the same rate of home ownership as the US does. That would suggest that lowering or even eliminating the deduction would have little impact on home ownership rates, so as a social policy it may not be necessary.
1badbaba3
@hitchhiker: You knw there is no way they wanted to have this conversation in an election year. But here comes “inevitable Mitt” and his Prom date, the lovely and virtuous Miss Citizens United walking right into the frame those hippies in the park were selling last fall, and here we are. The public’s war lust has faded. The war on Obama is a bore. They’ve run out of distractions, and have the temerity to run an uber capitalist this time after all we’ve been through. They can all DIAF. Sooner rather than later.
@The Dangerman: 11D chess, indeed.
Nutella
@wrb:
Any time a Republican whines about that we need to say that we’re waiting for everyone who said anything at all about Rev Wright to apologize to him and to the American public for poisoning our political discourse. Then we’ll leave the Mormons alone.
wrb
@Cermet:
Bet there are more
max
@Triassic Sands: Mitt Romney: Worst Human Being Ever (who ran for president)
Hey, I don’t like Mitt at all (and I feel bad for the Mormons that the Confederate party went for this loser and not someone else), but the worst human being to ever (credibly) run for President has to be John C. Calhoun. And I’d have to stop, throw up and then support Mitt in a two-man race with Calhoun.
Anyways, back to the OP. Revealing his tax returns would make a hash of the case against raising taxes on rich people along with the case for lowering the rate. If Romney’s rate is so low, how can lowering it further help the economy? The Laffer curve is supposed to indicate that there’s a rate that’s well above zero where cutting taxes decreases revenue. (That’s not the way the R party believes, but that’s the case for the supposed credibility of Laffer.) And then…
NH has no income tax which would certainly make a tax dodger like Mitt inclined to use that as his primary residence.
Actually, I was thinking that most of Mitt’s money that lives in America mostly lives in Utah, so that the taxes paid go to a state government controlled by the Church. On the other hand, you might be right. Which would would be an awkward thing to reveal in both Utah and Mass, particularly from the time he was governor. Extra bonus pain: he’s probably playing ducks and drakes with the state reporting requirements in Mass. and elsewhere.
So if he revealing the returns, not only would he be seriously embarrassed at a minimum, but it could trigger audits/investigations all up and down the line. (They don’t go poking into every return, particularly since Congress ordered the IRS to go harder on the little people than the rich people, but if the returns become public data, then investigator/auditor types would have no problem playing compare and contrast with state returns.)
And that’s even if he just invoked some dodgy exemptions. Things go downhill from there.
Meantime, given the great care which McCain took to indicate that Romney had paid all his taxes that were legally due without saying anything else, and given how Mitt handled the data dump, I’m going to say that Reid is accurately reporting what his source said and his source is telling the truth, whether that’s the truth about what Mitt said or from seeing the actual returns. So, basically Mitt didn’t pay much or anything in taxes from 1999-2009 or so.
(BTW, I think the explanation for what happened with Bain (Mitt claims he was negotiating a retirement package between 1999-2002 – given that he owned the place lock, stock and barrel, I’m guessing he must of stopped by occasionally and borrowed the key to executive washroom so he could stand in front of the mirror punching himself in the face while arguing with himself over the issue) is simply that he took delayed taking the package from Bain for as long as possible so as to minimize his tax liability. But he had to take the package in 2002 because he was running for governor.)
(Also: back at the beginning of 2011, he should have known he was running for president, so he should have just sat on his money. And he would have had no income. No income, no capital gains, no real tax liability. Thus, a competent campaigner would’ve had his 2011 returns out the door in January, or by Valentine’s Day at the latest. It’s August – where’s the damn return?)
There’s also the optical problem of the fact that if Mitt’s overseas money was living in the Cayman’s and whatnot, Mitt’s money was probably hanging out on the beach with drug cartel money. When you’re evading taxes, or hiding your drug money, or covering up your Ponzi scheme, there’s generally only one kind of place to go, and that’s the same place everyone’s money like that goes.
Summary: Mitt revealing Mitt’s return would be a political PR disaster, might open him to being forced to pay extra in taxes, and might possibly expose him (and other people who have seen the returns) to criminal liability.
AWKKKKKKWWWWAAAARRRRRDDDD.
max
[‘That’s why he’s trying to keep all off the table.’]
Ruckus
@Yutsano:
That’s probably the biggest one, at least for most people. I took a job 2500 miles from where I lived once. Within 6 months I purchased a house. Some asked me why. Mortgage tax deduction was the answer. I lived in that house for over 10 years and between tax relief and what I sold the house for, my rent cost was negative, even with little value appreciation.
But as you well know there are others. Many others. Many, many, many others. Most of the thousands of pages of tax code if I’m not misinformed. And many of them are very specific, a certain company or very small group of people.
RSA
@Sal:
Right, the complexity of the tax code gets in the way, as well as the general lack of understanding of marginal tax rates. (How many presumably educated people do you hear saying something that suggests they think that beyond a specific threshold, their tax rate goes up on all of their income?)
Here’s one workaround for conveying the bigger picture: I find an online U.S. tax calculator. I plug in $20 million as if it were ordinary wages. I enter no other information except that I’m filing jointly. I’m told that I’d owe $6,965,714, which is just under 35%.
But Romney gets away with 13.9%. The rich aren’t like you and me.
xian
@max: and when we finish beating Mitt like a rented mule, the Republicans will decry how a decent man was destroyed by Chicago-style thugs and “the politics of personal destruction.”
Nutella
Maddow points out that trusting someone to tell the truth about taxes is not only foolish in general but in Romney’s case we know for a fact that he has lied about his taxes before so we really shouldn’t believe a word he says. He had to pay back taxes to Massachusetts after he was found out.
via RawStory
Peter
@JGabriel: HSAs have always rolled over, but what they’re talking about is a FSBA, which is a whole different thing. I have no idea if they were changed in PPACA, though. I used to work customer service for a company that provided them, but that was in the Bush years.
JGabriel
@Yutsano, @Thoughtcrime, @Peter: A belated thanks to all of you.
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Triassic Sands
@hep kitty:
They’re a boon to the underwear industry.
Paul R
@JGabriel: What about the box that asks for “Occupation”? I wonder what years mentioned Bain?