Render unto me a break.
Mitt Romney is so full of a shit that somebody really ought to call waste services and have his ass hauled off to a toxic waste plant:
“Our church doesn’t publish how much people have given,” Romney tells Parade magazine in an edition due out Sunday. “This is done entirely privately. One of the downsides of releasing one’s financial information is that this is now all public, but we had never intended our contributions to be known. It’s a very personal thing between ourselves and our commitment to our God and to our church.“
You know what, asshole? If you didn’t intend for your contributions to be known, you shouldn’t have run for president.
And by the way? You can’t send your wife out to talk about how super awesome and honest you are, and have her gush about how you give ten percent of your income to the LDS Church and then two weeks later claim that you want to keep the amount you donate to the church private because of Jesus.
Come on, bro. You cannot be serious.
[read full post at ABLC]
Mike in NC
Patriotism used to be the last refuge of a scoundrel, but apparently it’s now religion. No surprise there.
PsiFighter37
Aside from being on the tax amnesty list (which I feel like is a certainty if they won’t release 5 years of returns), I bet Romney hasn’t tithed the 10% that the Big Guy on Kolob demands. He even admits in the interview that he’s crying about how much he has to donate, but not for the same reasons (super-awesomely-spiritual) that Ann does.
What a goddamn phony. Every excuse he comes up with makes him look increasingly skeevier.
Redshift
He’s really channeling Jon Lovitz more and more — “would you buy this as the reason I have to keep everything secret?”
beltane
Mitt is setting up a nice pitch for his coreligionist Harry Reid to hit out of the park.
Jon H
So does this mean there are no LDS contributions on the tax forms he *has* released?
Or does this mean he was skimping in the years that haven’t been released, and only puffed up his contributions on the last couple of years to look good?
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane:
And he’s too fucking stupid (and self absorbed) to realize it.
This man has no business at all running for public office if he’s unwilling to release this information. Voters have an absolute right to know these things, and reject someone who refuses to inform them. It has everything to do with his fitness for office, as his father realized.
mclaren
Once again Romney draws attention to the fairly strange practices of the Mormon church. It’s not every religion that demands a direct 10% cut of all its members’ earnings before taxes.
Most of the types of religions that do this kind of thing are Jonestown-style cults. Once again, methinks this is going to leave a very sour taste in the mouths of the Christian evangelical fundamentalists who make up about 60% of the Republican voters.
Patricia Kayden
Why not keep everything super duper secretive by not running for the Presidency?
Rich2506
Yeah, I saw the statement by Ann
I would make such a lousy interviewer because I would totally crack up and start laughing at that! Yes Ann, you can be a religious person and do the tithing bit and still be totally rotten and evil person. It’s nice to think that being religious also means you’re good, but just ’cause you’re one doesn’t mean you’re the other.
Michael G
Boy if only there was another well-known Mormon named Romney who had run for President, who *had* released his taxes, thus revealing his donations, and we would have an established precedent for this kind of thing.
Lancelot Link
Patriotism used to be the last refuge of a scoundrel, but apparently it’s now religion.
Religion is usually the first.
Ash Can
Only slightly OT, via LGF, Joe Arpaio is going to speak at the GOP convention too. There is no fucking way this convention doesn’t turn out to be a total embarrassment to the GOP (whether they realize it or not).
Anya
I actually dislike Ann Romney more than I dislike her husband. To paraphrase Madeleine Albright, there should be a special place in hell for women who willingly participate in the oppression of other women.
mai naem
Romney has not given the ten percent. LOL. Freaking hilarious. A church leader not tithing appropriately. He’s going to release a good tax return for 2011 with a high tax rate and then if he loses he’ll turn around and turn in a corrected return with a much lower rate.
Mr Stagger Lee
Great Father from Kolob, father of Jesus, creator of Moroni, sage of the Prophet(may peace be on him))Joseph Smith, create O Thy Lord, thy servant George Romney a god, so he can come back to Earth and zap his son with a thunderbolt to his ass. Do this Great Father from Kolob, and I shall praise thee forever and ever.
And I believe that the garden of Eden was in Jackson County Missouri.
pseudonymous in nc
Hey, Mittens: if you want your tithing to be secret, don’t claim it as a charitable deduction on your fucking taxes.
hhex65
that’s a clown candidate, bro
beltane
@Ash Can: The Republicans saw that poll showing Romney getting 0% of the Black vote and they’re hoping to build on that by aspiring to get 0% of the Latino vote as well.
Anya
@Ash Can: Maybe they’ll “accidently” cut off his microphone when he starts on the birther stuff. That way they’ll have their cake and eat it too.
ant
The 10% thing is just bazaar to me.
I’m an atheist as an adult, but growing up, we were Jehovah’s Witnesses.
There, one of the elders would give an accounting of what the Kingdom Hall had paid, and how much money it had in the bank every Thursday at the Thursday night meeting.
Everyone was expected to contribute. There was a small contribution box at the back of the Kingdom Hall that folks would put their money in. I don’t think we put our names on the envelope even.
The amount given was left to the person giving. Those who were poor could contribute in other ways like cleaning the Hall, and lawn maintenance, or any donation of their time that benefited the congregation. Donated time was considered more valuable than money.
Extra money that was left over went to headquarters in New York. They distributed what was needed to congregations that were in need/poor.
When I hear how other churches do it with lists of names and amounts shown to everybody and percentages and whatnot, it just seems so odd to me.
Linda Featheringill
@pseudonymous in nc:
Amen.
mai naem
@Ash Can: I hope Jan Brewer(AA-Arizona) gets to talk too, right after somebody’s been boozing her up.
@Anya: Ann Romney totally comes across an entitled member of the mean girls. I have to wonder what work she did at the temple as part of her required volunteering. I cannot see her doing any kind of cleaning chores. I can’t even see her doing Sunday School or childcare. She doesn’t come across as sharp enough for office work. Really, the only thing I can see her do is supervisory work, like a white glove test, followed by administering a tongue lashing to the person who didn’t pass the white glove test.
Hill Dweller
Maddow had a segment showing all the times Willard and his Stepford Wife told the interviewer that they gave 10% to the church. They were telling anyone who would listen.
Now we’re supposed to believe it is secret?
Yutsano
@Ash Can: Please tell me he gets a prime time speaking spot. Bonus points if he strokes out on stage!
drm
Victor Fleischer has examined some of the documents posted by Gawker. His conclusion differs from that of Dan Primack (Gawker’s worthless ‘Bain Files’.) Make your own judgement as to who might be better qualified to opine on this topic.
Romney’s Management Fee Conversions
Note that some of the Bain transactions questioned by Fleischer are as recent as 2009. Since it is now a freedom of religion issue for the candidate, apparently the topic will now remain off limits for the small minded people, who really ought to know better than to question Mitt.
Chuck Butcher
ABL, sure he is serious,
Fuck You I Am Rich And You’re Not
Ann Rynd
Prick iz hiding either: how much more he’s giving to the church than he’s paying in taxes or how much less than the 10% tithing that he’s supposed to be giving to the church that he has people thinking he’s been giving or: BOTH. Probably screwing both the church and the gov’ment. This zit has serious mental issues. You can see them in those hooded sadeyes which he also tries to hide.
Roger Moore
@hhex65:
FTFY
Steve
By offering yet another lame excuse they give the story another day of life. Well done Mitt.
Ash Can
@Anya:
With all of Sheriff Joe’s fans in the hall, and them most likely packing concealed heat? The poor Tampa Bay Lightning will have to play the first three weeks of their season in fucking Wilkes-Barre while their home rink gets rebuilt.
pseudonymous in nc
And seriously, I fucking hate the charitable deduction in principle. I know that it matters for charities, but I like the system in the UK where charities add up what they get over the course of the year and the Treasury tops it up with the tax that would have been paid on that amount.
Every year, Mittens tells the IRS just how much he gives to Mormonia, Inc., and as a result, gets to pay even less in tax than the pittance he pays on his dodgy portfolio.
@ant:
I was raised in the Catholic Church, and Catholics (at least, in my experience) put cash in a basket.
Linda Featheringill
@Hill Dweller:
When I was growing up, I knew several people that I thought were faithful with the tithe. But this wasn’t talked about and certainly not discussed with strangers.
If tithing is a spiritual act, then it really should be handled in quiet rooms.
But aside from that, paying tithes is not a substitute for paying taxes. And really, NOBODY cares how much you give to your church [or place of worship].
LanceThruster
The man is such a colossal and insufferable boob, you just know he never rose up through the ranks of his church hierarchy if they actually had any integrity.
Wait. What? The man was a bishop and stake president?
[gulp]
Roger Moore
Fixed so even Mitt can understand it.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Rich2506:
@ant:
Seems they missed Jesus’ lesson about earning their rewards on earth versus earning them for heaven.
Yutsano
@Linda Featheringill: This ad infinitum.
Roger Moore
@Hill Dweller:
Mitt is apparently willing to share percentages, but not absolute amounts.
burnspbesq
On his 2010 return, he claimed deductions for cash contributions of $1,525,000 to the LDS Church. He reported approximately $21.6 million of adjusted gross income.
Maybe my calculator has gastritis, but that seems to work out to slightly more than seven percent.
LanceThruster
@ant:
As a fellow atheist, I am fascinated by such stories. I hope you can expand on it some time. I also like the focus it seemed your JW congregation(s) put on what was being done with the funds.
I drifted out of Catholicism without a lot of fuss. It would be my understanding that such a separation would be a little more problematic with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Uncle Cosmo
@pseudonymous in nc:
First thing that occurred to me when I saw this thread. No one has to know how much you gave, not even the IRS–so long as you aren’t using it as an excuse to lower your tax bill.
But of course the self-entitled empty suit has to have it both ways–stiff the gummint & stifle the electorate.
@Anya: No need to cut off his mike when their housebroken media poodles can simply cut away to a commercial or interview or something. Arpaio blathers his hate-poxed arse off for the benefit of the hatemongering crowd & no one outside the hall ever sees the footage. Win-win for the Thugs.
Ann Rynd
In my catholic church once a year at mass the pastor would read a list of the yearly donations given by each family. What a scam that was. It was a kind of blackmail. My face is turning red just remembering it.
The Republic of Stupidity
And therein lies the problem, dunnit?
He and his handlers know damned well they’re not pulling the wool over our eyes…
To paraphrase the old joke about the two guys camping who hear a bear right outside their tent, Mitt doesn’t haven’t have to fool all of us, just enough of them…
danielx
Ranks right up there with Lloyd Blankfein claiming that Goldman Sachs is doing God’s work.
BillinGlendaleCA
@mclaren: Many churches strongly suggest tithing(10% of gross income), however what is different about the LDS church is they demand it and require proof. For lowly members(working stiffs)a pay stub will need to be shown to the ward’s bishop to maintain the family’s temple reccomend. Dubya Mitt’s income is so complicated that he might be able to fudge this.
@PsiFighter37: I’m starting to think that Dubya Mitt isn’t meeting his tithe as well.
Tractarian
This is hilarious. Great stuff, ABL
burnspbesq
@drm:
Bottom line: Fleisher fails to explain his theory, and if it’s assignment-of-income, he’s wrong.
The Dangerman
@Ann Rynd:
I’m beginning to wonder if Romney needs to go pass a physical or something; this excuse is so lame that I’d be far from shocked if he really did have some health issue. In poor people, this might be considered dementia; in the rich, it’s eccentricity (unless you’re fucking running for President).
arguingwithsignposts
Ok, I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but I should point out that there’s no *requirement* that you deduct charitable contributions on your taxes. Mitt could give 10 percent and just say he didn’t take the deduction. Hell, he probably wouldn’t even know it was gone.
Cheap bastard.
ETA: And I see this has already been addressed.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Redshift:
All Ann or Mitty need to add to their statement is “Yeah, that’s the ticket!” and it would be totally believable!
Redshift
@burnspbesq:
And that’s of AGI. I rather doubt that tithing is supposed to be calculated after deductions.
Valdivia
Render unto me a break. Classic. Love you ABL.
amk
@pseudonymous in nc: Tweeting that.
PurpleGirl
The Lutheran congregation I belonged to used envelopes with each family’s name on them and we placed them in a basket during the service. People could also give without using an envelope. We, however, kept the amount given as confidential — only the people who opened the envelopes and counted the money knew what was given and the treasurer kept the information in a list when envelopes were used. We were encouraged to give 10% as a pledge but if we couldn’t afford that, it was give whatever you can. One reason for the pledging a specific amount was so that the treasurer and the trustees knew how much money would be available at any one time to cover bills and expenses (oil, salaries, water bill, etc.).
ant
@LanceThruster:
I wanted to play basketball in high school. I wasn’t allowed to, due to “worldly association”.
One day, I stayed after school, and played in a pickup game just before basketball season. My mom got so mad at me for directly disobeying her orders that she packed up my clothes in garbage bags, and dropped me off at my dads house. He was a nonbeliever.
I was 16 years old.
I got to play then. It was a very destabilizing experience, due to how sheltered I had been up until then, and then not having all the people I knew around any more.
The networking and support provided among the JW’s is quite extensive.
I didn’t talk to my mother after that for 10 years. I never got over it.
She hated herself after that as well, and drank herself to death. She died 4 years ago from liver failure at age 52.
Dennis SGMM
He could redact the tithe line on his tax returns and release the rest, couldn’t he? Repeat after me; UBS, UBS, UBS…
suzanne
What routinely cracks me up about Mormons is how the vast majority of them seem to think that any hostility from their church comes from ignorance. “Go to LDS.org, not all those ex-Mormon websites that are full of lies, and read all about us!!!” I, who knows more about LDS Temple ceremonies than a lot of actual Mormons, have been repeatedly told that the reason I “hold misconceptions” is because I don’t know anything. (Never mind that I told some of my LDS friends about what was going to happen on their wedding days because their family and friends wouldn’t tell them.) I always want to loudly point out that if they opened their financial records and let non-Mormons into the Temples, they could see if it really is ignorance that causes the hostility, or if we really think they’re fully shit.
Waynski
OT — And forgive me everyone saw this already, but Charles Pierce leaves the blog for a few hours and Esquire publishes the worst foreign policy hackery yet written. I thought I was reading an ad:
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/
suzanne
@mai naem:
Is that in tribute to her recovery status or her highest educational level achieved?
Cacti
Someone should ask Mitt if his tax returns are “sacred, not secret”.
That’s the stock phrase they teach Mormons to tell people why they can’t talk about the temple rituals.
Waynski
Also too, back OT. Is there an In-trade line on Romney getting through one day without lying?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Waynski:
From the tag on the bottom of the post:
You were, essentially, reading an ad.
Violet
Did you see this bit:
BillinGlendaleCA
@suzanne: I’m gueesing the later. I don’t think Jan does meetings.
Hill Dweller
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I might actually read Grenell’s drivel just for the inevitable take down in the comments.
Pierce attracts a smarter clientele at his blog. Politico it ain’t. If Grenell didn’t know before, the comments under his first blog entry should make it obvious that weak propaganda will not going to go unanswered.
YellowJournalism
@Ash Can: Anyone taking bets on the N-CLANG! moment happening during that speech?
suzanne
@Violet: That’s how I feel when I give some money to Amnesty International or the ACLU or Doctors Without Borders or kiva.org. All of whom do more good work with less money than the LDS.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I was reading over at an ex-Mormon forum and they are talking about Rmoney’s tithing. One comment there just might explain why Rmoney wants to hide his tithing to the Mormon church.
One other thing is that some of the comments in other threads about tithing indicate that 10% is the minimum you are supposed to give. It seems that if you give more then the hope is that you may be looked on favorably by the church and its deity, especially in the afterlife.
It would really look bad if Rmoney was paying out more in tithes than taxes, that’s for damned sure.
Dennis SGMM
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Nice catch! A church where you can buy a better afterlife; how stupid does someone have to be to believe that?
Dave Trowbridge
FWIW, Teresa Nielsen Hayden at Making Light (who grew up LDS), has thoroughly debunked Mitt’s claims.
amk
mittbot today
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney said Thursday that most big businesses in the U.S. are “doing fine” and attributed their success in part to savings they get by keeping money in “low tax havens around the world.”
Romney’s assertions resembled President Barack Obama’s declaration earlier this summer that the “private sector is doing fine.” Republicans, including Romney, pounced on the president’s comments and cast them as an indication that he was out of touch with the nation’s economic struggles.
“Big business is doing fine in many places,” Romney said. “They get the loans they need, they can deal with all the regulation. They know how to find ways to get through the tax code, save money by putting various things in the places where there are low tax havens around the world for their businesses.”
Tom65
George Romney tithed, too. Try again, Mitt.
Roger Moore
@Violet:
Wow, Mitt is an asshole. On of the functions of giving money to your church is to acknowledge that your success depends on God’s grace, not just your own work. I guess Mitt is reluctant to admit that he had God’s help in building that, not to mention the government.
Suffern Ace
@Dennis SGMM: As everyone knows, the afterlife isn’t for sale. However, the Bain Infrastrure Opportunity Fund offers high net worth individuals the opportunity to collect tolls on the primary transit route to heaven. It purchased the land and stairway from a lady who had not efficiently tapped the revenue potential and unlocked the value through a 1000 year sale/leaseback arrangement with god himself. It glitters for him know,
Dennis SGMM
@Dave Trowbridge:
I wonder if there’s even a chance that Mitt could piss off the Saints with this. If he decided that those parts of his increase that went directly to offshore tax havens wasn’t subject to tithing then he’d be in some serious hurt with his coreligionists.
Villago Delenda Est
@Suffern Ace:
win!
Dennis SGMM
@Suffern Ace:
What Villago Delenda Est said.
Ash Can
@YellowJournalism: I’m surprised only by the fact that it hasn’t happened yet.
Dennis SGMM
@Ash Can:
I’m not. The flensing of Todd Akin is a reminder to never directly say what they’re all thinking.
Dee Loralei
@Suffern Ace: Beautiful, that needs to be front-paged, tweeted and go viral!
Digital Amish
Growing up Catholic we gave in envelopes with the family name on them. The totals were published once a year. Made for interesting conversation. Religion is weird.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Dennis SGMM:
Stupid enough to believe in an angel named Moron, umm… I mean Moroni!
KeithinOhio
I have one question. How much longer are the American people going to put of with this PATHOLOGICAL LIAR?!?! This is unpresidented, but yet he is a few braindead votes away from the Whitehouse. I don’t get it.
? Martin
Mormon attitudes toward money are very different from, well, all other religions.
Dennis SGMM
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Joseph Smith had at least the decency to warn away those with any sense. L. Ron Hubbard counted on the ridiculous and he sadly underestimated how much ridiculousness enhances religion.
Roger Moore
@Suffern Ace:
Dear Bain,
Can you hear the wind blow? And did you know your stairway lies on the whispering wind?
Villago Delenda Est
@? Martin:
Are they actually Mammon worshipers?
Why not? Most “conservative Christians” in this country actually are. Anyone who subscribes to the “prosperity gospel” is essentially a Mammon worshiper.
JasonF
That’s not all Romney is hiding. His Lordship has declared questions about Todd Akin are now off limits.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/08/23/mitt-romney-todd-akin-interview-cbs4-denver-shaun-boyd/
Villago Delenda Est
@JasonF:
He’s walking a very thin line here, between the GOP establishment that blanches at Akin’s violation of the first rule of Fight Club, and the savages who revel in outright misogyny and broomstick up the ass sexual morality.
Akin said, in plain English, what the GOP believes, and when people hear it stated that way, they are repelled.
YellowJournalism
@JasonF: But will we still be able to ask the most important question of all in a major political race:
Boxers or briefs?
(Or in his case, magic long johns?)
karen marie
@mai naem: No, no, I think perhaps the problem is that Romney tithed 10% of his gross income and voters are going to discover that is a larger amount than the 13.5% of net he paid in taxes.
bootsy
When you baptise a Jew who died in the Holocaust, it’s like you gave 10% of your earnings that day to charity.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Dennis SGMM:
An angel named Moroni would be enough to scare me away, especially when that supposed angel is a reanimated corpse from New York that is carrying plates containing the Book of Mormon.
karen marie
@Waynski: I saw a tweet from the author promoting that and sent him back a raspberry.
Waynski
@Odie Hugh Manatee: “An angel named Moroni would be enough to scare me away, especially when that supposed angel is a reanimated corpse from New York.”
Is Moroni from Brooklyn or Queens? God forbid Staten Island. I knew a Moroni once. I think he’s related to Guiliani.
Waynski
@karen marie: Well done.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Waynski:
Nope, Manchester, NY. Maybe they lived in Queens or Brooklyn and moved there for retirement. ;)
RadioOne
What the hell is up with Jon Lovitz? He hasn’t done anything remotely entertaining in over 20 years, and now he’s going on CNN and Fox and saying his “small business” entertainment company is failing because nobody remotely cares about Jon Lovitz anymore, and we’re supposed to give a shit? We’re supposed to blame Obama for Jon Lovitz’s failures?
Waynski
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Perhaps because Joseph Smith rooked them out of some money and then claimed God was speaking to him, they smelled the upstate crazy and figured the city might be more logical.
I didn’t know Moroni’s sister Jenna but I heard she was successful in the acting business. TGS or some shit.
The prophet Nostradumbass
There’s an amazing amount of bullshit pseudo-scholarship surrounding the LDS church. The Wikipedia article on the angel Moroni is a good jumping-off point, though you could probably pick any random Mormon-related article as a starting point.
Waynski
@RadioOne: Well, of course, Obama’s responsible for all white people’s failures… Hollywood Republicans are both rare and peculiar. They should all be in a petting zoo.
Ruckus
I still don’t understand why so many are saying it’s only one thing, tithing, underpayment, amnesty. With conservatives if there are multiple choices it is always, All of the above.
He can not be so stupid to believe hiding his tax returns, which the longer it goes on makes him look guiltier, is a better alternative than what’s in them.
Yutsano
@Ruckus: Plus HE KEEPS BRINGING IT UP. He doesn’t just let it be and move on to his next
lieattack on Obama. He just has no clue how it looks to regular Americans. That and he must believe he’ll win the same way he won the primary. I’d kill to have a reporter ask him about the White Horse Prophecy too.J R in WVa
@burnspbesq
Burnspbsq… – if he used gross income to compute his percentage of tithing, which is how the Angel Moroni intends it to be ; and if his gross income before deductions was $30,600,000 which is a reasonably larger gross income, then his per cent of tithing is only 04.9836601 % !!!
So Holy Jehosophat Willard RMoney is stiffing the church by half what is expected of a farmer, or rancher, or oil billionaire, or rich layer-off-of-gainfully-employed workers. Wait, aren’t jillionaires expected to tithe MORE than people turning wrenches for $35/hour take home?
Wait, wait, wait!!!
He’s stiffing his own cult for tithing? Shouldn’t the Angel Moroni be striking his family and associates for his sinning?
Are we approaching the reason Hurricane Issac has been arranged to approach Tampa Bay next Monday?
Could all Sainted Ann Rmoney’s health problems be caused by the irreligious actions of her Gods=blessed Holy Husband?
Is the Republican Party being struck to its Knees by Holy Willard’s blasphemous and sacreligious idolatry worshipfulness towards unapproved Idols?
AAAA [Associated Anxious Athiests OF America] want to know!!!
Gods of our Fathers help us in this dark hour of our need!!!
I’m saved from my unbelieving eyes by teh actions of Willard RMoney!!! Bless Moroni for casting the scales from my eyes!!!
The Godsless Democratic worshippers of Mammon are as nothing compared to the mighty forces unleashed by the sinning of Willard! We can all be cxaved by following his terrible example and giving 60%, NO 90% *** no – 110% – YES, all our money AND then some to the good brothers of Salt Lake, so they will gild the Temple with pure gold to show the hujmble beauty of Gods’ Church, and all his chambers filled with Angels of Beauty and Power!
Saved, all of us, by seeing the terrible example of RMoney’s sinnfulness and Gods’ terrible judgement against him.
We are Saved! Vote for Obama to get your own terrible judgement from their Gods.
Wait, did get I spme of that backwards? Someone help me out here to untangle that message from upstairs!
Burnspbs1q, can you translate this into common American English for to save us?
Thanks, brother…
I’ll be better in a little bit. I just need some more sleep, just a little more of that bedtime tipple, thats rightr e
er
huh.
anyway, it made sense when moroni said it. I’ll get it better in the mornin. Maybe I was touched by a Moroni for just one minute there in the bed. Or somethin’ like dat;.
Raven on the Hill
Extended analysis by excommunicate Mormon Teresa Nielsen Hayden, here.
Frederick
It’s not only Ann who’s bragged that the Romneys give 10% of their pretax income to the Mormon Church. Romney himself did so in a January 2012 interview with David Gergen – also published in Parade Magazine, no less!
[Gergen] Do you tithe on a regular basis?
[Romney] Yes. I’ve given away 10 percent of what I’ve earned, pretax.
[Gergen] That means you’ve given millions of dollars to your church so far?
[Romney] Absolutely.
http://bit.ly/tQ0Ph8 Romney is a pathological liar – and a really bad one, to boot.
Bobby Thomson
@ant: Damn.
kay
I just want you to IMAGINE the conspiracy theories on the Right if the Obamas had refused to release tax returns.
I’m actually proud of liberals and Democrats. Our speculation is so incredibly boring and mundane.
There would be a whole movement on the Right by now, and books, and rallies, and leaders.
They’d all be on cable TV weekly.
Dennis
950 pages of Bain/Romney tax and financial information released yesterday, and people here are still howling for more.
Mitt and Ann Romney are right, no matter how much information is released, people won’t be satisfied.
300baud
“Render unto me a break” delights me entirely.
J.D. Rhoades
They have their own newspapers, their own private TV news network, their own network of websites that will be telling then Crazy Joe’s a misunderstood statesman. They won’t feel a moment’s embarrassment.
In 1992, I was still on the fence, proudly independent, and was even considering voting for Poppy Bush. Two things moved me solidly into the Dem ranks: the Republican convention and the Democratic convention. After Patrick J. Buchanan’s “Culture War” speech, Rich Bond telling me “We are America and you’re not”, and Pat Robertson raving like a street person about how the Democrats were plague carriers, I decided I wanted nothing to do with these people. But I didn’t have Fox News telling me what great prophets these assholes were.
Applejinx
Wow. I get it, now.
He took amnesty for felony tax evasion making him an admitted felon, AND he has other tax evasion issues that are still out there and may also be felonies, AND he is applying the same logic to his CHURCH despite being a church leader.
May not be tithing half what he ‘should’, but there’s something in there where he’s taking a legalistic (not mormonistic) interpretation of ‘increase’. No way is he over-tithing. No WAY. He would not have got to where he is wealth-wise if that was him. It would be totally out of character for the guy.
He’s not LITERALLY crying with regret every time he gives money to God (!) but that’s because he’s satisfied that he’s weaseled out of as much tithe as he can get away with, and STILL he is bitter about it, still resentful. His wife ain’t, I think she’s serious, and it’s a form of generosity though I hate what the Mormons do with that money.
Mitt Romney took amnesty AND is still tax evading AND is tithe evading AND was deeply involved in setting the tone for Bain AND is an unthinkable kajillionaire. Because that’s what an unthinkable kajillionaire IS. Normally your rich inheritance kid is a Dubya Bush and pisses the money away stupidly. Not Mitt. Mitt is savagely greedy and allows nothing to interfere with his greed- not the law, not ‘decency’, not God.
Maybe he DOES cry with bitter resentment when he tithes. Nice guy! Nice church leader! Mormons should be careful what they ask for when they encourage worldly success to support their aims.
He’s weaseling on the tithing, just as he’s cheated on his taxes. I would bet cash money on this if I was certain that his wealth could not buy total secrecy on this fact. I fear maybe it can- it’s hard to overstate how much wealth he did amass. This is how that’s done.
debbie
@ Jon H:
In his mind there is. When Romney first announced he’d looked at his tax returns and confirmed that he’d paid at 1east 13% for each of the past 10 years, he also said (and no one bothered to pick up on it) that if you added in his charitable donations, his tax rate was close to 20%.
What’s the mind set of a very wealthy man who equates donating to charitable causes with paying a tax?
Applejinx
@debbie: The mindset I’ve just described in the post above yours?
Hello. Is that an inadvertent admission he’s tithing less than seven percent, or does he mean other charitable donations?
*doubletake* wait. WHAT other charitable donations could he possibly be making?
Jinchi
Of course, he didn’t have to declare his contributions on his tax returns, anyway. He did that to get a reduction in his tax rate.
Jay in Oregon
@Applejinx:
After the joke about crying when writing the check to his church, I became convinced that he’s short-changing the collection plate.
Now I’m starting to wonder if he’s been skimming off of the collection plate to boot; charging a few extra “management fees” here and there, overvaluing property that he sells to the church or undervaluing property that he buys from the church…
It would totally fit his M.O. to be lining his pockets with money tithed by poorer Mormons. And Utah has an extremely high rate of financial fraud.
quannlace
The answers Mitt & Co. give in interviews? He may as well we pulling them out of a Bingo ball machine.
**Rattle-rattle-rattle**
B-2 “I’m a great guy. I give so much to my church. So trust me on those tax returns.”
***Rattle-rattle-rattle”””
G-4 “I can’t release my returns. You’d see that I give so much to my church!”
Bingo? Bingo, anybody?
Dennis
@Jinchi:
And Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and every other House and Senate Democrat could also write a check to the IRS for an additional amount that would bring their marginal tax rate up to 39.6%, which they say would be the ‘fair share’ for everyone making what they do.
But they don’t.
Applejinx
@Jay in Oregon: That I doubt, I don’t think it goes that far. I think he pushes the rules to the limit, cheats the government, and weasels on tithing without setting out to actually ROB anyone so directly, certainly not his church.
To my mind there’s a distinction between plausible and implausible, and applying the same weasely attitude to tithing is plausible and supported by his joke (his wife wouldn’t have made that joke, it would be sort of unthinkable).
Bain’s been described as vulture capitalists, not pirates. They’re exploiting and bending the rules with glee, not ignoring them. Their glee is partly self-righteous that they are so clever: just robbing people, they’d see as crude and beneath them. Mitt isn’t robbing his church, he just sees himself as cleverer than it.
hep kitty
Private, private, private! Secret, secret, secret. That’s the Mormon church for you.
What have I been saying? It’s all about the church, my friends. It goes much deeper than anyone, esp. libs, dares to go. What a bunch of wimps we all are.
jayjaybear
@RadioOne: Him, Dennis Miller and Victoria Jackson. There was apparently something in the water at SNL in the late 80s.
Ruckus
@Yutsano:
He can not be so stupid to believe hiding his tax returns, which the longer it goes on makes him look guiltier, is a better alternative than what’s in them.
I forgot the /snark tag.
He really is that stupid. As someone once said stupid is as stupid does. And mittens does stupid. He does stupid very, very well.
LanceThruster
@ant:
Ant. I’m very sorry for the pain that caused everyone and I thank you for your openness in sharing your story. Though it is said that getting atheists on the same page is like herding cats, I have found a very great bond with them and hope you do too. When I was the advisor to the student atheist group on our campus, I always found it remarkable how students from all over the world from some pretty restrictive theistic countries, cultures, and families, took much pleasure and relief from the freedom to simply disbelieve. Many had to keep this secret from their own families. I enjoyed the discussions with them (and you) very much and it makes me so much more appreciative that skepticism is accepted and coming into its own.
I’ve written about it here before, but I was fortunate to have a Catholic priest at our Confirmation ceremony (the sacrament pledging yourself to God and Catholicism) say, “If going to church is a burden, if you don’t get anything out of fellowshipping with others on Sunday, for God’s sake, don’t go.”
It took awhile for that to kick in (around college), but kick in it did.
Again, thank you for relating your history here in BJ.
I think about the only thing I miss about the Catholic chruch, was feeling part of that committment to social justice (something someone else here reminded me was at one time a big deal with them) and working communally to try to make the world a better place.
The dogma itself is not something I miss in the least. Love does not come from some invisible Sky Daddy, but from each other.
rikyrah
Willard pimped the church to draft dodge.
You’re shocked that he would pimp the church to try and weasel out of the tax returns?
IMO, the Mormon reasons for not releasing the tax returns are thus:
1. it will be shown that he paid more in tithes to the Mormon church, than in taxes to the country he wants to be elected President.
2. it will be shown that he did several business deals with the Mormon Church, and used their TAX EXEMPT STATUS to get out of paying MILLIONS IN TAXES.
but that he would try and pimp the Mormon Church doesn’t shock me.
LanceThruster
@rikyrah:
An essential point that needs to be continuously hammered home.
Uncle Cosmo
@Dennis:
Blowing smoke again. The tax returns of those nasty ole Democrats are public knowledge–you have a problem with what methods they used to legally avoid paying the top rate, have at. We’d do the same for Willard–if he ever released even the 5 years the Obama campaign has asked about. When you run for office but you won’t let the public see your tax returns, the default presumption is that you’re hiding something that’s illegal, immoral, and/or politically devastating. And it would be irresponsible not to speculate on just what’s being hidden–which we will be happy to continue. Willard can stop the speculation at any time by simply releasing the goddamned returns.
Remember, as Nixon found out to his eternal disgrace, it ain’t the crime that they clobber you for, it’s the coverup.
fuckwit
Oooh oooh ohh, Rethug projection again!
Ten bucks says he gave NEXT TO NOTHING to the church, percentage-wise, and he will lose all the Mormon votes he would otherwise have gotten, and possibly be excommunicated on top of that.
The fundies take tithing VERY seriously. Refusing to give your fair percentage when everyone else is busting their ass to do their part, is a SERIOUS OFFENSE.
If he releases those returns, or if they get leaked, he’s fucked with the whole religious constituency.
Popcorn, please.
Yutsano
@Dennis:
Because IT DOESN’T WORK LIKE THAT. The IRS does not accept donations. Tax rates are set by Congress, and by law any overpayment is returned to the taxpayer. Or used to credit any outstanding government debts. I choose to believe you know this, otherwise you’re too thick to share my planet’s oxygen pool.