I watched Liz Warren’s speech with my mom, who is from Boston last night. I thought the speech was very good. My mom said “I can see why she’s losing to Scott Brown.” I said “But with that touch of Oklahoma accent, she comes across as more Real Murkin than you’d think.”
My mom said “You think they like that accent in Boston?”
For this, and other reasons, Liz Warren plays better nationally than she does in Massachusetts. If she loses in November, it doesn’t mean that her message and persona don’t work on a bigger stage.
Elizabelle
Interesting.
Villago Delenda Est
Alas, she’s got a point there. In a world where policy discussion gets shunted aside for pure surface impressions, that’s a telling one.
Steve
I adore Elizabeth Warren, but she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I’d love it if her message was a winner, and I sure hope it will be, but I’m prepared to entertain the possibility that it isn’t.
I’m reminded of Alan Grayson, who of course was a much different person, but had this in common: he argued the way progressives think a Democrat ought to argue. And he got thumped pretty soundly. You can tell me it was a Republican wave year, sure, but wait to tell me that until after he makes his electoral comeback. I’ll be here.
I really hope Warren wins and has a long and successful career in politics, but contra DougJ, I think if she loses this race she’s finished from an electoral perspective. This is Massachusetts, and if you can’t win there as a Democrat, you’re doing something wrong.
Hunter Gathers
It’s kind of hard to beat an incumbent pickup truck, as long as the pickup truck in question answers every question with either ‘How ’bout those Celtics!’ and ‘Who wants to pork my daughters?’. Of course I expect the pickup truck to develop engine problems when it comes time for the debates, but the barn coat will take up the slack and remind every white male looser in the state that Warren is a shrill person with those icky lady parts that no one wants to see pose nude in a magazine.
Marc
Listen to your mother. As I watched Warren’s speech last night, I thought “she would be kicking Scott Brown’s ass if she had a Massachussetts accent.”
It sucks, but there you go.
WarMunchkin
Checking TPM Polls, it’s showing Obama having 53% in MA. That’s pretty low, no?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Elizabeth Warren was better than I expected and I hope she gets to ride some coattails in November. I don’t like Ted Kennedy’s seat being held by that lightweight Scott Brown.
I was nonplussed by Sandra Fluke. Something about her facial expressions struck me as cold.
scav
@Steve: Except she’s not losing as a Democrat there in MA, she’s losing for not overcoming the MA insider or the highway tic. MA may consider itself the sin qua non if not here than nowhere of the Democratic party but it may just possibly be kidding itself. Politics and regions are getting a little changeable. Oh, could anyone explain the MA purists fell for Romney again?
Just Some Fuckhead
I think it’s more likely Massachusetts is conservative and Teddy Kennedy’s machine was cheating all those years.
Ash Can
This highlights an eternal inconvenient truth in politics that way too many people forget or ignore — it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference how great a pol is; if s/he can’t win his/her own district, then it doesn’t help anyone. In Warren’s case, the race is still tight and it still looks like she has a shot. But she needs to run a hell of a campaign, and can’t let up for a minute.
Comrade Jake
There does seem to be this sense that she comes across as not really being from MA or even New England, not being able to speak about the Red Sox, etc.
That and I assume there’s some fair amount of misogyny at play in MA in general. “That Scott Brown – he’s a winnah!”
Davis X. Machina
I’ve got two union-member brothers who’ve ‘liked’ Scott Brown on Facebook. One of them works for a firm whose workforce shrank by 70% during the recession, and whose customers historically were 50%-70% auto parts suppliers.
They love the truck. He understands them, them and all their exurban neighbors who are disproportionately one-truck contractors and other very-small businessmen.
The GOP in Massachusetts is based on Poujadisme, not theocracy. That’s how you get Romneys as governors.
Steve
@scav: MA has elected plenty of moderate to liberal Republican governors over the years. They’re not exactly known for electing Republicans to federal office, though. Even in the House, where every state pretty much has a conservative district somewhere, MA has not had a single Republican in Congress since 1997.
Look, I’d love to be wrong. I think she’s great.
Seonachan
Harshbarger redux. Earnest, honest, smart person from somewhere else vs. familiar empty suit incumbent from across the street. Brown’s phony shtick is ripe for eviscerating mockery but the Warren camp can’t or won’t pull it off.
Chinn Romney
Scottie’s got ad’s all over the air ways.
He’s stylin’ in athletic gear, strutting down a dock as he announces he’s going to save the fishing industry. If they want to fish themselves out of existence, who are the guvmint to stop them.
He’s cruisin’ in his pickup, telling how he’s going to save … something else. Forgot what that is, but my, he looks hawt behind the wheel. He’s learned from Bush though, the cod piece reminds hidden. It’s always best to leave something to the imagination, doncha know.
He’s pinning medals on soldiers in another spot. He did a tour of Afghanistan in his duties as an LTC in the Guard. I believe the tour lasted about 38 hours, but gosh darn, he did it.
Damn straight he’s kicking the Professor’s bee-hind. She’s only got, like, 2 teevee ads out there. And it’s the same old lecture in both of them.
Since I relocated from Eastern MA to the Northern Worcester Hills, as they like to call them, I’m seeing this State with new eyes. I even ditched the pompuous ‘Commonwealth’ descriptor. We’re second rate, and well on the way to joining the rest of the country as third rate. But hey, this means you’ll want to have a beer with us very soon, that’s the main thing.
BGinCHI
This is a fucking depressing thread.
Jesus, can there be no progress? It would be nice if people knew how to be afraid of electing politicians that gave them the shaft. Americans have the luxury of mostly getting away with voting against their self interest. Which impacts those more vulnerable than they are. And who they then blame for everything.
The cycle, it’s vicious.
EconWatcher
My wife and I didn’t care for her delivery at all. To me, instead of projecting confidence, she had an air of breathlessness and desperation in both her voice and her gestures. She was imploring rather than persuading.
I wouldn’t compare her to Michelle Obama or the Big Dog, because that would be unfair. They’re both once-in-a-lifetime naturals. But compare her to a neophyte like Fluke. Fluke left me wishing her speech was longer. With Warren, I wanted it to be over as soon as possible. YMMV, but I found it almost unwatchable.
Let me add, I think Warren is brilliant, and has already accomplished a great deal in the field of financial regulation. I want her to win. But she just isn’t a good pol, in my opinion.
scav
@Steve: She may or may not make it in MA, I was disputing your assumption she’d not make it anywhere else if she didn’t manage MA. She’s got enough of a national base already that she could try elsewhere, not everywhere but some localities are less hung up on accents and where your fore-daddies attended High-school.
joes527
The Massholes will get the government that they deserve.
Fuck them for doing it to the rest of us though.
fanshawe
Is there any other big city in America as hilariously parochial as Boston?
Mnemosyne
@Comrade Jake:
Someone was saying yesterday that the polls are showing a HUGE gender gap between Brown and Warren. Interestingly, though we don’t have all that many people from Mass. who post here, it was showing up after Warren’s speech last night — generally speaking, women seemed to love her and men seemed neutral to cool towards her after seeing her speak. Not entirely sure what that’s all about.
Davis X. Machina
@fanshawe: All cities are. New York is 8 million people living in 400 villages.
BGK
Is Massachusetts really that tribal? Pierce, earlier:
Maybe the Irish in my family were just wired differently, maybe it was geography (New York vs Boston), or maybe it was all the strong women, but my 20-years-dead Irish-American grandfather probably would’ve punched Cosmo Brown in the face and bought Elizabeth Warren a beer.
The Ancient Randonneur
I would say that Warren’s problem also stems from a tide of old thinking. Just because a man is registered to vote Democratic doesn’t make him a feminist, or even tolerant of strong women in general. Quite a few men, yes even those of a less conservative strain, STILL have a problem with women who don’t “know their place”. Remember the often over-the-top hate of Hillary in 2008? I suspect most women do. Just like racism, misogyny is not dead.
Disco
I can’t stand Warren. I don’t know why that is, maybe the annoying granny way she looks over the top of her glasses.
Sandra Fluke delivered an outstanding speech. She should have been the lead-in to Clinton instead.
jwb
@EconWatcher: It reminded me of a lot of sermons I have heard in suburban churches. Basically, I thought it was fine, I knew I was supposed to be inspired by it, and occasionally I was, but mostly I thought it was just kind of boring. Oddly and probably for the better, I didn’t detect much of the professor in it.
Cacti
I think we need to acknowledge the elephant in the room about librul Mass.
They have a real problem with electing wimmins to their highest offices.
Bob R.
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s not just a surface impression. Things like accents (and smells and images) convey meaning.
Democrats in Massachusetts have spent their entire lives being maligned by people speaking with that accent. They’ve seen that no matter how off-base or bad tempered those words are, people will think it’s OK because that twangy accent represents “Real Americans” – a group that never seems to include them.
may
Part of Warren’s problem in MA is that she is female.
State politics is a boyz club.
jwb
@Mnemosyne: Yes, and Brown polls better with men than Warren does with women. I guess trucks really go to the lizard brain of men or something.
Amanda in the South Bay
Why are so many blue collar men idiots?
R. Porrofatto
She gave one of the best, most hard-hitting speeches at the convention, and we’re talking about her accent. Good lord, our political discourse is infantile.
Saint Timonious
I live here in MA, I’m a Warren supporter, and I’ll vote for her. I have to say, though, that Scott Brown is honestly a very likeable guy. He shows up to local events (5Ks, Portuguese festivals) without a large (if any) entourage, gets recognized, and just “aw shucks” his way into people’s good graces. He’s done it twivce in my neighborhood, and I live in the hinterlandsof western MA (near Springfield). I’m not saying she has to go to diners – far from it. She should ask her local volunteers what’s going on in terms of local events, and just show up. Soemone will recognize her, and the conversation will start. And got to three events a day minimum. I know she walked in the same parade as Brown in MArlborough, but sheesh, go to the Big E and have some farmer (mostly hippies out here anyway) gush over her and start a buzz.
(Some GOP putz will mockingly start saying “ooo, lookit, she’s tryin’ to get some ah that Frenchy frisson…!”)
I hope that when she kicks his ass all over the debate stage she gets a bump in the polls.
catclub
@fanshawe: Probably lots.
New Orleans comes to mind. So does Pittsburgh.
Alex S.
Some people need to start taking Scott Brown seriously.
Jay
I think President Obama could play a bit of chess here.
I trust he knows Elizabeth Warren is needed in public life, so how about this: she loses…
HOWEVER.
POTUS, if he is reelected, puts John Kerry in the cabinet (as more than a few people thought he would at the start of his first term), thus freeing up Governor Patrick to put Warren in the seat before she ages out of being a freshman senator.
Were Warren appointed to the seat, I think she could, COULD eventually face a Democratic Primary (a la Specter) to test her strength. I can’t think of any Democrat in the MA House delegation who could beat her, and MA Republicans have whom, exactly? Richard Tsei isn’t a lock in his House race, and somebody like Bill Weld (besides being forgotten by a number of MA voters) hurt himself by running for office in another state after being a fairly successful GOP MA governor.
Come to think of it, Vickie Kennedy could beat Warren, but I bet she’d only run if President Obama asked her to.
xian
off-topic, check out glenn kessler’s latest mathphobic “factcheck” of clinton’s speech. he adds 3.8 and 1.5 million, subtracts 1m as already counted and then says it does not equal (or exceed) 4m, distracs with an unexplained sidenote about the 2.5/1 ration of cuts to tax increases, somehow claims that reducing interest on debt doesn’t save the government money, waves his hands to claim none of the other cuts are real, and then basically takes a dump and a bow.
hep kitty
Well that’s just sad, considering the alternative. Good God. Accents matter more than character, brains, accomplishments, and an unwillingness to show some skin for a few bucks?
MA might as well be the south.
BGinCHI
@Disco:
Just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any worse.
The Thin Black Duke
@Alex S.: That’s correct, unfortunately. And I’m glad that Mitt Romney is running for president this year instead of Scott Brown. Depressing, ain’t it?
jwb
OT, Unlimited Campaign Cash, Inc., seems to be throwing in the towel in Michigan. Didn’t know that they’ve apparently already conceded PA as well. What’s most interesting is the economic calculations that serve as the premise of the article, suggesting that the SuperPacs appear to be suffering a cash shortage.
Violet
@EconWatcher:
Yes, this. She was imploring. I love her, but she needs a speech coach pronto.
While we’re being superficial about Scott Brown and his truck and Red Sox gear, Elizabeth Warren needs to grow her hair back out. Here’s a photo of what she looked like a short time ago. I remember when she showed up on the Daily Show with her new haircut and I didn’t think it worked for her. The old haircut is cute. Makes her look like a cute, smart woman, which is much less threatening to those men who want to vote for a truck.
rlrr
@jwb:
I wonder if the know Romney is doomed and they’re going to concentrate on the down ticket races and 2016…
hep kitty
Damn, and I thought I was a picky a-hole, “I hate this/that person’s delivery” Overall, it’s a good convention, not everybody is gonna blow it out of the sky like FLOTUS.
Elizabelle
@Mnemosyne:
re the Warren gender gap:
I’m thinking Massachusetts is ripe for a Lysistrata-style intervention.
No lioness on cheese graters, ladies.
Cassidy
@hep kitty: Boston has a very defined identity. The identity wins over rational logic any day of the week. If the Dems really want to win and keep the seat forever, they need to find another liberal, Irish-American white guy. It sucks and I love Warren, but is what it is.
Todd
Yes. “One of Us” is a very powerful thing, even when the “One of Us” doesn’t necessarily square up with your political views.
peorgietirebiter
@BGK: Doesn’t Pierce also say (without irony or snark) that Scott Brown is a remarkably likeable guy? That, along with a ton of outside money presents a formidable challenge. She may be absolutely right but people still have to want to listen to her and then believe what she saiys. Not so easy.
Elizabelle
Thinking Elizabeth Warren might remind some men of the lady boss who really IS smarter than they are?
And who wins a lot of discussions, on the merit of her arguments?
Men brag about marrying up, but I don’t know how many are secure enough to translate that to their workplace.
Alex S.
@The Thin Black Duke:
That was my thought as well. Here’s a republican with a potential national presence. The Dems need to stop him now, just like they needed to stop Rubio, but no… they had to run that Dem instead of endorsing Crist, and now we have Mr. “prominent latino republican”.
Donut
Gotta agree with Doug’s ma on this one. She started off so flat, and it took her such a long time to juice up and get into it. A few minutes in, I found my mind wandering and rather than being focused on the content of her speech, I kept thinking her cadence and delivery just were not appropriate for the moment. Dont grt me wrong. She says all the right stuff, she has done great work, and I support her and will kick some more cash down to her nonetheless, but I think her chances are dwindling. I dunno how many converts she won over last night. I suspect not many.
Kirbster
Scott Brown would rather remove his own spleen with a melon baller than admit he’s a Republican who votes with the nutty Republicans in the Senate at least 98% of the time. His “vote for me because I’m nice bi-partisany guy who drives a truck” campaign grates on my every nerve.
Dave
OK, no. Oklahoma has nothing to do with it. Her problem last night was that her ethos was insipid and pretty obviously a put-on. (I was surprised, and I had never heard her speak before. I realized she comes across better in print.) She spent the first half of the speech trying to “connect” emotionally and with anecdotes in a traditional feminine way. I would suggest she does not do that believably, and I don’t know why she tried. She doesn’t do “common people” well because what she actually sounds like is not Oklahoma but a Harvard professor.
The only moments where she was actually persuasive was when she was talking about billionaires strutting around demanding that we thank them. She should have told a story about the economy, using some numbers, and from her experience at the CPFB, to lead up to that. She should have wonked out and gotten angry about it, but instead she gave us what looked like an unstable, warbling auntie persona. I think she’s in trouble if she doesn’t start playing to her strengths.
Shawn in ShowMe
@The Ancient Randonneur</a
That’s why I’m skeptical about the love for Michelle Obama, a woman who rarely talks about her professional life, who is happy to be perceived chiefly as a her husband’s help-mate and loves children and puppy dogs. Now we know in reality she’s more than that but her public persona is June Cleaver. Who doesn’t love June Cleaver?
Sure Michelle Obama is loved, but for lots of men that love is conditional. In an alternate universe where she actually relished campaigning, direct confrontation with men, and ran for office, the “love” meter would drop substantially.
gogol's wife
@fanshawe:
No. Short answer.
The Ancient Randonneur
@Elizabelle:
I suspect “marrying up” is the equivalent to “having a black friend at work”.
Cacti
@Todd:
It is powerful. And part of the reason Romney is such a tough sell is he seems like a “them” to so many, even on the R side: weird religion, socially awkward, doesn’t seem to come from anywhere in particular, etc.
Anya
I was born in Brigham and Women’s Hospital but people keep asking for my birth certificate. I got asked when I was applying for a passport and whenever I do anything that has to do with government. Why wasn’t Romney asked for his birth certificate ever? I rate his statement “mostly false.”
Elizabelle
@Dave:
Agree with you. She improved and connected once she got to the banksters and Main Street.
SFAW
Warren’s speech was aimed at the national market, not the MA market. She was talking as a Caped Consumer Crusader, not a pol who will work hard for MA, etc. Annoyed the crap out of me that she (or whoever) chose that tack. I am hoping that she can clean Brown’s clock if they ever have a debate, but I think she squandered a major opportunity. (I’m probably being overly-harsh in my assessment, may revise it later.) I hope I’m wrong re: squandering; having her in the Senate would be an excellent thing.
As far as politics in MA: semi-agree re: boy’s club. But Martha Coakley’s campaign was the political equivalent of Plan Nine from Outer Space, in terms of quality. She thought winning the primary was all she needed to do. I’m of the opinion that Mike Capuano would have kicked Scott Brown’s butt, but we’ll never know.
In addition, the Commonwealth (FSM save it!) has had a major redneck streak for more than 20 years, so it’s not completely surprising that Rethugs keep getting elected.
It doesn’t help that Mayuh Menino pulls the “kiss my ring (or whatever) or I’ll support the Republican” routine, far too often. He did it to Scott Harshbarger – well, that was because he hated Harshbarger – and I think has sent signals he’ll support Brown. (Maybe he’s already said so?)
So, MA is not quite the monolith the Rethugs paint it, but it would also be nice if the Dems could run a competent campaign once in awhile.
Seonachan
@Jay: The governor doesn’t appoint people to vacant senate seats anymore. They changed the law when Romney was gov, fearing he’d appoint a Republican if Kerry won the presidency. Now it’s a direct election to fill the remainder of the term – that’s how we got Brown in the first place.
danah gaz
“I watched Liz Warren’s speech my mom, who is from Boston last night”
I was trying to wrap my head around this sentence, which did not make any sense to me.
Luckily my spouse pointed out the problem…
“I watched Liz Warren’s speech with my mom, who is from Boston last night”
Apparently, it was just too early for me to decode.
DougJ, you need a copy editor. =)
Violet
@Dave: I agree. She didn’t really connect until she got to the banksters. She needs to play to her strenghts–wonkiness, finance, taking down banksters. That stuff is sooo easy to relate to people’s lives. You just have to do it.
Mr Stagger Lee
@The Ancient Randonneur: Very True, Boston a “liberal” city had some of the most violent reaction to busing in the 70’s. The famous picture of a white guy spearing a black man with the American Flag, did not happen in Georgia or Mississippi it was Boston. The book, Common Ground: A Turbulent Decade in the Lives of Three American Families. by J Anthony Lukas was a great story about the desegregation.
Todd
@Elizabelle:
No, some people just have a hard time connecting with other folks outside of their circle of friends, family and professional associates. Just looking at this thread, it sounds like women have as much of a problem with her as men do.
Regrettable, but true. I suspect it has a lot to do with subliminal factors that are difficult to address – certain movements, speech patterns, habits, choices of words and accents can (especially in combination) be really irritating.
SFAW
@danah gaz:
Maybe Yglesias can help him?
SFAW
@Chinn Romney:
Holden? Gahdneh? Lemminstah?
Davis X. Machina
Massachusetts is politically fissiparous, in some cases along fracture lines that go back before Ratification, to the days of Shay’s Rebellion. The state really isn’t Boston-plus-a-few-suburbs — it’s complex. Gerry Studds, for example, kept getting elected by a bunch of fishermen and Portuguese and retirees down the Cape, liberal as he was, gay as he was. Silvio Conte had a seat for life in the Berkshires, in the most Democratic state in the Union.
It’s complicated.
Skyway
@BGK:
I am not a fan of Scott Brown. His handlers are masterful at presenting him at the right
time and place, in the appropriate cap, sports jersey, barn coat and always in the damn
truck ….Complete with mileage. With him, no substance, an opportunist at every turn.
He is far more concerned with the photo op.
Elizabeth Warren is the exact opposite…substantive, clear, earnest.
She is hugely popular in the western suburbs of Boston. Her delivery and slightly
“prissy” image can be difficult to get beyond but it is well worth the effort.
While not a natural politician, she has an incredibly strong
and important message. Perhaps last night’s successful speech will ignite MA
Voters and bring her victory.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Don’t discount the town versus gown aspect of this election, either.
The ‘This Old House Voter’ loves Scott Brown. On the roads here, every contractor’s truck seems to be emblazoned with those annoying “He’s for us” stickers (which begs the question, who’s us, kimosabe?.
Here’s your typical blue collar MA voter: He hates the Kennedys. He’s racist, because he’s competing with cheaper Hispanic immigrants for work (Blacks got shut out of the trade unions decades ago, but the Hispanics just ignore the unions and work anyway). He thinks the sun shines out his ass because he owns a little business (that, more often than not, he inherited from his dad). He essentially uses that business to cheat on his taxes (which is how guys who make $60K on paper manage to afford boats, summer homes and Harleys). He’ll bitch about the ‘lazy bums on welfare’, but the wives whip out their MassHealth cards at my wife’s drive-through pharmacy in their ‘company cars’ (almost always a Mercedes or a Lexus) with no sense of irony or shame.
He also despises those knowledge-workers who drive the economy here, including ‘Harvard weenies’ like Elizabeth Warren. I suspect that on some level, they do sense that they’re going to be left behind as the century moves forward.
Regarding accents: Scott Brown’s is fake (this place is like the UK in some ways– a true local can narrow down your hometown just from the accent sometimes). And I learned early in life that dropping back into my native Somerville/Cambridge accent when hiring a contractor can save me 20-30% on the bill.
That’s your Scott Brown voter, folks.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
comment in moderation, odd.
test.
Cassidy
@Todd: I think something else is that when Warren speaks, and I’m not including last night as I didn’t see it, she comes across as very…shaky, like ADHD, constantly moving. For me, I like it. I’m ADD and I get it. But I can’t help but think that her mannerisms remind people of neurotic or weird science types they’ve seen on TV or movies. Or maybe I’m sleep deprived.
The Ancient Randonneur
@Mr Stagger Lee: Yep. One of my best friends is a Southie. The stories he told me of the very open and rampant racism he witnessed in South Boston were a real eye-opener. The :South was very much alive in Southie. It has changed but the old resentments have not completely dissipated either.
SFAW
@Davis X. Machina:
Yeah, but that was because of his GTO.
“Fissiparous”? WTF? I reject your superior vocabulation skills, and substitute my own edumacationable discourse. Or somethin’.
Kirk Spencer
@fanshawe:
Savannah.
? Martin
I was a bit worried about this one:
It’s a slow engine, but at least it still running steady. Nice news to report leading into the big guy’s speech, and allows him to keep the momentum off of Clinton going.
Cassidy
OTOH, if she can get the Dropkick Murphy’s to publicly endorse her, she’ll have the election won immediately.
Chinn Romney
@SFAW:
Westminstah.
Anya
This thread is depressing. That’s all….
Gin & Tonic
@Kirk Spencer: “Big city”?
General Stuck
OT
Run, my little wingnuts, run till there’s no where else to run.
4tehlulz
Question for fellow Massholes: Has anyone heard a Warren commercial on the radio? I haven’t.
SFAW
@Chinn Romney:
Ah, Westminstah – Ashburnham’s (or maybe Hubbardston’s?) snootier suburb.
Chris
@The Ancient Randonneur:
Yep.
It also partly explains Palin’s success. The fact that she was a fucking dumbass played well with a certain type of man, and that type tends to vote Republican.
MazeDancer
@Marc:
So true about the accent.
Frequently – especially when it’s on radio or I’m not seeing the TV screen – Elizabeth Warren sounds exactly like Peggy Noonan. Have even thought it was Noonan talking before saw that it was Warren.
I am happily voting for Elizabeth Warren, proudly sporting her (very boring) bumper sticker on my car. But last night I could appreciate her speech intellectually, even admire some of the lines, and greatly admire her. But felt no fire. Deval Patrick – burning, roaring fire. Where do I sign up? Elizabeth Warren, golf clap.
If her steel and smarts were translated through any kind of Boston sounding tone, she’d be miles ahead. Instead she sounds like a school marm. Lecturing. The Gepetto glasses don’t help either.
It’s an Information Age. Every aspect of delivering information is essential. Not just the ideas. The package is the content. And if she can’t roar, then she needs marketing that does. A really hooky rallying cry. Something that lets her sound as exciting as she is policy wise.
Linnaeus
Folks might be interested in this analysis of Warren’s campaign by Alec MacGillis in The New Republic.
hep kitty
@Cassidy: I’m sure this is a poor comparison, but it puts me in mind of the southern elite and upper middle class sort of attitude; they would never admit to voting for a teabagger b/c teabaggers are fire-breathing, boorish and crude crazies. They think they are above that sort of thing some how. They’ll keep their vote to themselves.
They’re like the Romans were, it’s ok to beat your slave, just don’t beat him to death b/c that would show a lack of control and class.
Culture of Truth
I agree, there was a bit of imploring there.
Agree also, that if Brown prevails it will be as much because he is likable as it is his views on policy and stuff like that.
I’ll say this too, Brown’s alleged moderation aside, you can’t say Massachusetts has not been given a clear choice in this election.
aimai
@Jay:
Oh for fuck’s sake people, including Obama, begged Vickie Kennedy to run and she wouldn’t. That ship has sailed. I can’t believe people think that the obvious ploys weren’t tried at the time that Kennedy died. We never would have been in that fix if Vickie Kennedy had been willing to run instead of Coakley. Never.
Warren is the candidate we have and she was, on paper, and in many ways, a damned good candidate–she’s the thinking voter’s candidate. However, Brown is the bluff, hail fellow well met sexy candidate and she can’t beat that. You can’t beat sex with the brain unless a whole lot of people stand up for her and for women and for the national impact of the election.
Instead of appealing to the asshole white would be truck driving voter in the burbs if she can flip the hundreds of thousands of brazilian voters in the commonwealth she can get in. But I don’t know what the outreach to that community looks like. But those voters probably don’t distinguish between Brown and her in the same way that working class white men distinguish between them. Both are “upper class” “white” candidates and Brown’s glad handing probably doesn’t affect them.
aimai
SFAW
@4tehlulz:
I don’t think there’s much need for radio commercials when you’re running for Mayor of Newton.
dr. bloor
@Saint Timonious:
This. Scott Brown is a fucking idiot savant, with his singular talent being retail politicking. He’s locked up the substantial number of MA residents who still can’t believe their governor is Ni-CLANG, and relates well enough to enough others to pull it off.
If Obama really wants Warren in the Senate–and, for that matter, Murphy from CT and Cicilline from RI–he’s going to have to drop some coin and pay some visits to the region over the next couple of months. Getting Big Dog to drop in wouldn’t hurt a bit, either.
JGabriel
__
__
FYI, link to video of Elizabeth Warren’s speech.
.
Brachiator
@DougJ:
This does not follow logically from your mother’s comments. It would be interesting to hear more about her reservations about Warren.
And if Warren loses in November, she may not get the opportunity to get to a bigger stage.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Kirbster:
This is what she should be running against. Not the likeable guy but against the party, what it represents. Hang that like a noose around his head. Others have done it, it’s not that hard. Wash, rinse, repeat.
DougJ
@Alex S.:
He’s a great politician. Hats off.
Cermet
Her accent is an issue? Have we gone that low? Like the Brits and their requirement that anyone in the highest office must have an elite accent really tells me a lot about a people. Not a good thing – really, a very poor thing. That news is just depressing. Makes me realize how much more enlightened New Yorkers are compared to the people in Massachusetts.
Chris
@Mr Stagger Lee:
This.
That was possibly the biggest part of the backlash against civil rights. As long as civil rights was about telling silly country hicks in that weird far-off land “the South” to get their shit together, no one else cared all that much. When the feds started telling restaurant owners and hotel managers in Boston, New York, Los Angeles etc that they weren’t allowed to discriminate either, that’s when the shit hit the fan.
vtr
I’m from northern New England. Whether or not I enjoy someone’s Oklahoma accent depends on what’s being said. Elizabeth Warren, yes; Jim Inhofe, absolutely not.
hep kitty
@Cassidy: not saying Brown is a teabagger, just skeevy and undeserving of Ted Kennedy’s seat
SiubhanDuinne
O/T, Tom Brokaw was rushed to a Charlotte hospital this morning after appearing on Morning Joe. He felt light headed. Abundance of caution, he is apparently tweeting he feels better now.
hep kitty
My God, please be kind to E Warren! We can’t even get a Dem to run against anybody down here! We got nothing, absolutely nothing. It’s pathetic.
SFAW
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
Yeah, except the last time they tried it, the TV commercials were about as helpful as the Demon Sheep. Ooohh, Scary Republican!! Ominous-sounding voice and all that shit. And the Rethug (I think it was Brown) just played the out-of-touch-negative-campaigner-who-has-the-DNC-doing-a-hatchet-job-on-poor-little-me card, and effectively neutralized those ads.
One hopes someone with a triple-digit IQ will address this, instead of the usual Dem campaign people.
Marc
@Cermet: Well if there’s one thing that’s going to move voters in the rest of the country, it’s hearing how much more enlightened you New Yorkers are.
NCSteve
@WarMunchkin: No, it’s not low. It’s the interval that’s significant, not the ornidinal values.
TPM’s polling regression thingee is showing Obama ahead of former Massachusetts governor Romney by 12.7%. It’s 53% Obama vs. 40.3% Romney. If Romney had a shot at more than half of the 6.7% in “dunno/won’t tell/other” territory, he’d already have them.
Because, again, he was their last governor. There is no additional info about Romney that could make them all break Romney’s way.
SiubhanDuinne
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
Might have been “ph@rm@cy.”
Cassidy
@hep kitty: I can see the comparison. I don’t know how close it is up north, but the other factor is that Southern identity politics revolve around an unspoken caste system as well.
@Cermet: Ummm…did you just start paying attention? Identity politics has been around since the first elected office.
General Stuck
I don’t think Warren loses in November. I think dems for once, nationally, have coalesced around a working man’s theme, that is pitch perfect for this election. And overall blue states are gonna be very blue, and the toss ups are former electoral domains of the republicans. Though it would help immensely if there was a very good jobs report tomorrow. If that happens, the election is over with a blue turning of indie voters, with dems keeping the WH and Senate, and the focus is on the long shot of winning back the house. Focused democrats? Solidify’d message? Imagine that if you can. There is your second coming and secret weapon all rolled into one.
hep kitty
@Todd:
I totally don’t understand this. I’m a southerner so how many times do you think I run into a Barack Obama or any successful black man down here? I
wasn’t a huge fan, quite frankly, but that was because I felt he was too conciliatory to the other side, not because I could not relate to him on a personal level b/c we had different experiences and backgrounds. I sure as heck wasn’t voting for McCain!
I just cannot understand that kind of thinking at all. Perhaps it’s because I have never belonged to a tribe of any kind.
I thought MA was much more open-minded. Another assumption blown out of the water.
Woodrowfan
can we get Bobby Valentine to endorse Brown??
GxB
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: I’ll give this observation an upfist, Sconny style – it sorts out a lot confusion in this neck of the woods too. There’s a fuckton of people here smart enough to know going R is just slashing their own throat, but so hung on the lizard brain reactions to teh blah, ‘n’ wimmins, ‘n’ the ghey, plus the eggheads always tellin’ us whut we can and can’t shoot… it overrides their self preservation instinct. Thanks man.
Gin & Tonic
@dr. bloor: Cicilline is not running for Senate, he’s running for re-election in RI’s 1st CD. Sheldon Whitehouse is the sitting Senator that’s up for re-election this year.
I don’t think Whitehouse has a serious risk of losing. I think Cicilline does. Brendan Doherty is popular and a strong candidate.
Shawn in ShowMe
@MazeDancer:
Except if you’re a dude. Then you can look and sound like Joe Lieberman or Mitch McConnell.
Spatula
I live in Boston and will be voting for Elizabeth Warren. Her presence on the ticket is my motivation for bothering to make it to the polls. While there, I’ll vote for Obama. If Warren wasn’t on the ticket I probably wouldn’t bother.
I am both shocked and grossed out that Warren is struggling against Scott Brown. I’ve only lived here five years however, and I’m learning this state is not nearly as liberal as its always been portrayed by the right wing.
Either way, the Obama administration’s plan to do away with Liz Warren is working out just as planned. Rather than kicking ass from a powerful perch as head of the CFPB she created, she is fighting for her political life against Scott Brown and will likely lose, thus becoming immediately irrelevant.
Well played, Mr. Obama.
Jay
@Seonachan:
Brain fart brought on by an early-morning haze.
My mistake.
I still don’t know if Warren would be fatally wounded by a loss this time, though.
Kerry goes cabinet and Warren faces a Dem primary (?) against someone from the House Delegation. Better than even money she wins that.
Then, who on MA’s Republican bench beats her? Some suburban mayor someplace? Kerry – freaking – Healey?
dr. bloor
@Gin & Tonic: Uh, yeah, I know. I live in Cicilline’s district. And he does have a good chance of losing. The point being that anyone who thinks NE is automatically Blue, this year or any other, really isn’t very familiar with NE.
Whitehouse is going to clean up.
Ding dong
The problem with Warren is that she does not smile enough and she does not use humor. She needs Al Franken to write her some standard funny lines. She has to do that because Brown comes across as an aw shucks happy go lucky positive guy.
PaulW
Dear Bostonians:
FUCK YOUR ACCENT.
If you’re refusing to vote for Warren because of how she says “y’all” instead of “pahk ya cah by the yahd”, then you deserve another six years of being represented by Grover Norquist’s lapdog.
Signed:
A Floridian Whose Accent I’ve Been Told Is Mid-Atlantic But Am Not Sure About It.
hep kitty
The large law firms I worked for might have 2 black attorneys out of 50-something, if you’re lucky.
Another Halocene Human
BINGO, DougJ.
I also said the same thing last night as we were watching her at work. (Yeah, I have a cool workplace… some days.)
She sounds like my mom, who is from Oklahoma, and who also doesn’t play well in Massachusetts.
It was clear that the crowd loved her to death, though.
I told my coworkers her problem is that after all that time a) she’s not a politician and b) she never learned to fake that baaaawston accent like the Kennedys did. After all, they’re from the posh section of Brookline, but they knew how to win elections.
(Hell, I didn’t grow up in the City, but learned to fake it for a job. My ‘suburban’ accent was incomprehensible to some of the customers.)
SFAW
@Marc:
Well, it’s about time you figured that out. We’ve been trying to ‘splain that to you yokels for years, but you don’t seem to get it.
@Woodrowfan:
And maybe get Armando Benitez to give Brown’s closing statement at the debate(s)?
Cassidy
@Spatula: Is there any nutty conspiracy theory you won’t entertain?
hep kitty
To append my previous comment: the large law firms I worked for might employ 2 black attorneys for every 50 or so, and that’s if you’re lucky.
Spatula
@R. Porrofatto:
Yes, indeed.
Matt McIrvin
By the way, fellow Massholes, today is the state primary election. Warren is currently running unopposed for the Democratic Senate nomination, but you ought to come anyway and vote for the state legislature and that wacky, wacky Governor’s Council.
Another Halocene Human
Massachusetts is like another planet politically. Dukakis’ campaign was doomed in the heartland by being dubbed the “Massachusetts” guy, even though the Bushes were as Eastern Mass as anyone, while Warren’s ship is sinking in Boston for never having lost that Middle West accent.
She not only sounds like my mom, she went on stage and went into a slow boil like my mom. She’s like an alternative universe version of my mom (who is also very good with finance/numbers and majored in journalism in college) except not woohoo! crazy. Which doesn’t make me fall all over her but does make her interesting to watch, I guess? All the mixed feelings.
NCSteve
The outright bigotry of a lot of people from the Northeast for anyone who speaks with any accent from any U.S. region south of Jersey and west of Ohio is the single most irritating, yet potentially useful, thing about dealing with people up there.
Ding dong
You are stupid. You do realize obama needs the senate in Dem hands to have any leverage with the house right and it is far from a safe dem senate right? Right?@Spatula:
Ding dong
You are stupid. You do realize obama needs the senate in Dem hands to have any leverage with the house right and it is far from a safe dem senate right? Right?@Spatula:
Ding dong
You are stupid. You do realize obama needs the senate in Dem hands to have any leverage with the house right and it is far from a safe dem senate right? Right?@Spatula:
Gin & Tonic
@dr. bloor: Sorry. It sounded from the context like you were saying Cicilline is running for Senate.
dr. bloor
@Spatula: @dr. bloor:
Five years. That’s quite a learning curve you’ve got there, sport. Most people pick up on the political dynamics after listening to Dennis and Callahan for twenty minutes.
Also, too, the reason Warren is running is because she won the fucking primary.
Joel
Let’s not go bashing my home state too much, shall we?
Massachusetts has a proud liberal tradition, beginning with abolitionism and the Massachusetts 54th. The city of Boston, for all its flaws, is one of the most consistently liberal cities in the United States. That said, like everywhere in America, you still have at least 40% GOP identity and plenty of dickbags among them.
Martha Coakley thought she could waltz into office and fucked us over good and well. Elizabeth Warren has not been running a campaign that inspires her volunteers – I know some – and if that’s the case with the people on the ground, how is that going to play with voters? I’ll leave it for you to decide.
Chris
@PaulW:
I don’t even need to read what comes next to agree with that.
nixnutz
I asked my dad, who’s a life-long Massachusetts Democratic hack/hanger-on–worked for Dukakis, has held various town-wide positions, frequent delegate etc.–about Warren a year or so ago, when she first showed up on the scene and he was not excited about her. I’m sure he’ll vote for her, where he wouldn’t vote for Coakley because of her record, but he felt that she was an outsider who’d been foisted on “us” and she hadn’t hired anyone he knew.
Now my dad’s a big-time crank but the TNR link seems to back that impression up; she seems to have failed to court the Mass. party lifers and that’s an army of potential volunteers, etc. who are not really on board.
I think it sucks because she’s a great candidate but it seems like an unforced error.
hep kitty
Damn, from all the comments I am reading, it appears MA is just every bit as shallow as the south.
And oh yeh, I remember what happened in Boston back in the early 70’s now, I had forgotten. I remember my mom being kinda smug about it since she was sick and tired of everyone acting like southerners were the only racists in America.
We got put in our place a lot earlier. The Nawth, not so much.
Matt McIrvin
…oh, and bring ID just in case they’ve put you on the “inactive voter” roll for some reason.
It happened to me because I forgot to send in my town census form, but the poll workers muttered darkly that it had been happening to some people for reasons that remained mysterious. At least once I filled out the affidavit saying I live where I live, I got a real ballot, not some dumb provisional thing.
With luck it’s taken care of now and won’t bite me in the general election (this is a good reason to vote in special elections and primaries, just to ping the system and make sure it’s working).
Patricia Kayden
Poor Warren. Accents, Native American ancestry, female parts. She’s qualified for the job and will do better than someone on the opposing team. We don’t want the Senate in Repub hands.
hep kitty
And no, I don’t like every little thing about Warren’s style. There are things I’d like to see her do differently, but I’m not going to be all down on her b/c of that. I’m not the one putting my @$$ on the line.
GxB
@Cermet: I’ll remember that the next time I’m told to “engage in self relations” in a Brooklyn accent. At least they didn’t tell me to “go poun’ chowdah…”
Spatula
@Cassidy:
dupe.
Matt McIrvin
@dr. bloor: “Also, too, the reason Warren is running is because she won the fucking primary.”
Actually, no: as stated above, the primary is today, so she hasn’t won it yet. But she was clearly stronger than all the other potential candidates, who dropped out long ago.
By the way, as far as I can tell, all the noise about how she’s losing is on the basis of a single PPP poll (and a perception that she ought to be hugely winning). We wouldn’t go by that in the presidential election.
Another Halocene Human
@Seonachan: Now, now, HARSHBARGER’s mistake was investigating corruption among the real power players, the South Boston machine Democrats. For that they, stabbed him in the back and set the machine to vote REPUBLICAN.
Thus we got Paul “Bumbles” Cellucci as governor, who probably had more to do with Massachusetts being 47th in job growth during Romney’s term than Romney did. The state lege, which quite literally does whatever it wants, LOVED Cellucci. He and his friends made a hash of the treasury, throwing transit into the pit with the Big Dig in an attempt to hide cost overruns while the treasurer’s childhood friend “Trixie” (“tricksy”? can’t make this up) Trischetta was stealing money out of the unpaid check fund and laundering it through his construction business. As we say on the NE Corridor line–unFUCKINGbelievable!
I went to a union event and this smug South Boston operative was talking about EFCA (never actually explained what it was… the unions never did, even though it’s important, and now it’s dead) and started bragging about Southie’s GOTV the vote efforts and I heckled him. Oh yes I did. Youuuuuuu fucking cowards and shits.
Btw, I believe that Boston City councilman who is in prison right now is innocent. The Machine has people on the inside in the FBI–I mean how do you think Whitey stayed out of a jail cell all those years?–and Chuck Turner wasn’t a team player so they put him away.
Spatula
@Cassidy:
Hmmm…nice try there, equating political strategizing and manipulation with “conspiracy theories.”
So…your assertion is that strategy=conspiracy=never happens?
She was elbowed out, from a sphere for which she is ideally suited into one in which she is awkward. The big boys are evil, but they’re not stupid.
feebog
@ Comrade Scott’s agenda of rage:
Agree completely. She should be running against Mitch McConnell and the Boner. Hammer home just how obstructionist the Republicans have been and that Brown has stuck with them on every single important vote.
BTW, I checked the polls; essentially tied until mid August. The last two, including a PPP poll have her down by 5 and 6. This is not a huge gap to overcome. She has a substantial war chest, so the ads are on the way. A few good ads and a couple good debate performances could turn this around.
JMS
What someone in Massachusetts ought to explain is why they can’t get someone to run who would crush Scott Brown? I don’t mean this as disrespect to Elizabeth Warren, although I’ve never warmed up to her–I feel like there are a bunch of liberals telling me why I should like her rather than feeling the love directly, and that never works out well in politics. Still, she wasn’t the most obvious choice, and I read her candidacy as a case of “nobody else was going to do it”.
So what gives, Massachusetts? Did Ted Kennedy suck all the air out of the room? Surely in such a state there must be some ambitious and charismatic Democrat who would be salivating over the job and could trounce Scott Brown, given the states overwhelmingly Democratic lean. If not, why not?
Can't Be Bothered
Jesus christ, I hate you people sometimes.
Rampant Yeti
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: Plus infinity. Perfect description of my Masshole blue collar neighbor. And last week, added to the Brown bumper on his truck was an “I built this sign.” Um, no. Even granting the Repug spin on this, pretty sure it was your Dad, Francis.
1badbaba3
Oh, I’m sorry, I was looking for the kicking ass and taking names thread. Instead I seem to have stumbled into the whiney dweeb thread. Do carry on, you whiney beasts. Don’t forget to wear you galoshes.
Alex S.
@DougJ:
Just to be clear, I didn`t mean you when I said “some people”, but those who like to reduce Scott Brown to appearance. That includes another front-pager though.
SFAW
@Can’t Be Bothered:
Jesus Christ, NOW what?
Brachiator
@The Ancient Randonneur:
Not really. I do remember her sometimes shambolic and divisive primary campaigning.
Yes, but I’m not sure that this is the only thing at play here. I’m still interested in why DougJ’s mother (who I will presume is not a man) understands why Warren is not connecting.
The irony here is that we’ve just had thread after thread of men and women gushing over how Clinton thrilled the crowds as he delivered his message. Then people want to turn around and note that Warren “is not a politician” and it doesn’t matter if she cannot speak to the people, and if the voters don’t just fall in line and vote for her, it’s their problem, not hers.
It’s gotta be more complicated than that.
Another Halocene Human
@Just Some Fuckhead: Oh yeah? The Greens got 15% in downticket races in 2002.
However, you do have the conservative exurbanites, who are probably pissed now because being out there isn’t quite the deal it once appeared to be. White flighters fleeing like five Black people. (They’re just scary like that.) Independent contractors who don’t get that their high wages don’t come from their clients–there are rich clients in Florida you stupid bitches, you know, the place where you party?–they come from a strong union movement. Some of these dickwads don’t know where their prosperity comes from.
Do they outnumber the highly educated, highly liberal folks orbiting the, like, 500 universities per square mile in Eastern Mass? I don’t know.
As for Kennedy cheating, it’s often been said that South Boston cheats, but South Boston alone doesn’t carry the state at such margins, nor does it explain a Dem sweep of congressional districts. Let’s not forget West-Central Mass–Amherst–is more liberal than Boston, thanks to the five major schools out there. Kennedy was despised by some, beloved by most, and, as independents explained to me, he had seniority, which got a lot of things for our state.
SFAW
@1badbaba3:
Actually, this is “Getting Hit on the Head” lessons. What you want is next door.
Another Halocene Human
@Chinn Romney: Yeah, you’re right about the industrial devastation, but don’t say second rate by US standards–let’s keep some perspective here–I mean, how would you even grade Florida on that scale?–25th rate?
dr. bloor
@Gin & Tonic: Sorry. I’m a little cranky this morning, as you might have discerned.
dr. bloor
@Matt McIrvin: I stand corrected–I knew she was the last candidate standing. A knee-jerk response on my part to the assumption of others that Obama or anyone else squashed some obviously-superior-would-be-killing-an-incumbent-by-fifteen-points.
Fuck Coakley. That is all.
Another Halocene Human
@Brachiator: Yes, but I’m not sure that this is the only thing at play here. I’m still interested in why DougJ’s mother (who I will presume is not a man) understands why Warren is not connecting.
Women can win in Mass although there does seem to be a +5 males environment. Warren’s not connecting a) because she’s an angry lecturer, reflecting a personal style that is out of step with her adopted state, but probably plays really well in Tulsa. (Kennedy got angry and would pound the table but it was righteous anger than included you, not a slow boil that seems a little, hmmm, uncontrolled (?) to someone raised in the NE just because we don’t know what’s going to happen next? Or maybe that’s just me.) But she also still has that strong Midwest accent without even a touch of Massachusetts. Mass voters are accustomed to pols who promise to represent THEM. Even if they are doing good for the entire country, it’s from a base of their district. Living in that state for years and failing to connect?
Hell, Warren went on about her early life and never mentioned going to college, earning her PhD and becoming a professor at Harvard. Never told an anecdote about living in Mass. She reeks “not a politician” and her mind is clearly in those senate hearing rooms as she railed against Jamie Dimon & the rest of the WS gang. But where does she give tribute to Mass, explain why she loves it?
DEVAL PATRICK did. He is a fucking carpetbagger and I couldn’t understand why everyone voted for him gleefully (I had left the state by that time). But in his speech on Tuesday he talked about an elementary school in inner city Boston. He exuded pride in Massachusetts, and people from Mass want to hear that. Mass is the center of the universe and Boston in the Hub, and we have “not invented here” syndrome like crazy because our place is the best place in the universe. Warren doesn’t seem to fucking care. And that’s the worst sin for a politician running for political office in Mass.
She’s like a more focused Jill Stein. Jill Stein got 3% of the vote.
James Hulsey
@fanshawe: St. Louis, where the standard question when meeting someone new is, “Where did you go to high school?”
Another Halocene Human
@Another Halocene Human: Also, too, much of the reason Romney is despised in Mass has nothing to do with what he did as governor (weak governor state, anyway). It was that he tried to distance himself from Mass, starting with same sex marriage, to position himself for national office. Mass residents took the insult personally.
Another Halocene Human
@dr. bloor: I’m glad Coakley lost. She’s horrible.
Another Halocene Human
@EconWatcher:
Yes, you really got it with that note about her sound of desperation. She is great as an activist and we really needed her on the consumer credit watchdog agency. Last night I noted she was as serious as a heart attack. Even Lilly Ledbetter “got” that political aspect more as a seasoned activist. But then again, Warren has become the standard bearer for liberals and lefties angry at the plutocracy and, well, we ARE losing. Badly.
Another Halocene Human
@fanshawe: Maybe parts of the deep South.
hep kitty
My opinion of MA has diminished somewhat. I never thought they would prefer pickup trucks over integrity and smarts. They have defiled his seat with this skeevy bastidge and they’re not even ashamed b/c they’re going to vote for him again. WOW, never saw that coming, never.
Hate to beat a dead horse, but it sounds like the south, that’s a real shame.
Brachiator
@Another Halocene Human:
Sounds like she is a shitty candidate, and would be equally shitty even if she were a male.
Which is too bad, since she has much to offer.
BTW, this Mass as the hub of the universe thing reminds me a bit of the movie Ted, which often comes across as a kind of cracked love letter to Boston and its wacky insularity and tribalism.
Also, BTW, I don’t think an angry lecturer style would play well in Tulsa.
Another Halocene Human
@Bob R.:
Trudat. And as I said upthread, she never once tries to include people from Massachusetts in her speech, not even to say “I’m one of you” but “I respect and admire you” in even a small way. Ranting about some people in different town’s consumer credit difficulties doesn’t accomplish that, btw. She never stuck in a human moment of coming to Massachusetts and finding out about our unique ways. And that’s deadly.
I almost wonder if she doesn’t want to be there, doing that. If, like my mom, she actively dislikes people from Mass. She did say she never expected to be running for Senate. Maybe she doesn’t want the job.
Maybe that’s what the “Cherokee” slur is really about. Not just hysteria by the WASPs who know they are living on Indian land, who flip out every time an Indian activist’s protest gets carried on the news. Maybe it’s because her desire to connect with other Natives at Harvard was a signal for her inability to fit in in New England and adapt to the local culture, that she wants to be in a Western enclave because she can’t adapt and connect to the broader Cambridge community.
That’s really sad, if so.
different-church-lady
Her real problem is that at some point she’s going to have to start talking about Massachusetts. Yes, I know last night was a convention speech, and as such ought to focus on national issues. But the obstacle here is almost the same as 2 years ago: Brown talks about MA and why MA voters should vote for him. When people talk about the damn truck they’re indicating that they completely miss his strength. It’s not his image, it’s that he makes an appeal to the residents of the state that he cares about the state. This is not Warren’s strength.
1badbaba3
Fuck the polls. Listen to all the reichwing whinging going on in the media. That’s how you know she’s doing well. Look at all the trolls oot and aboot today, They’re everywhere. Sack up people. We’re winning. They’re losing it all over the place. And after tonight they’ll be just about done. A little shakin’, a little tenderizin’, and down the hatch.
Mike in NC
I spent the first half of my life living in Boston and female politicians have a huge, HUGE disadvantage running for statewide office, no doubt about it.
pseudonymous in nc
Judas Escargot pinned down the ‘This Old House’ voter demographic, and there’s the whole thing about WEEI being a de facto Brown propaganda station. Mass is a fucking parochial state in things political.
Another Halocene Human
@Amanda in the South Bay: status anxiety.
seriously.
they are eager to have a pol tell them lies, tell them sweet little lies to assuage their status anxiety which flares when they interact with men from professional backgrounds, etc.
If you ever listed to Click and Clack carefully, they engage in a ton of self-deprecating humor revolving around status anxiety as blue collar men in that most white collar and overeducated of towns, Cambridge. (Don’t believe it… North Cambridge is working poor and heavily Hispanic. I would say lower middle class but I don’t think that exists any more.)
ETA: Ted Kennedy was a genius at tapping into class consciousness, which turns that anxiety into a passion for creating a more fair and just world, instead of sending it on a hiding to tribalism and wingertude.
different-church-lady
@Another Halocene Human:
Had a ton to do with Kerry-Healy being the worst candidate the GOP had put up in ages.
different-church-lady
@Another Halocene Human:
The irony here being that they’re both MIT grads and could probably outthink 80% of the drivers of any Lexus brought into their shop.
Mnemosyne
@Kirbster:
Anne Laurie was saying yesterday that his ads don’t even use the word “Republican” — he claims he’s an “independent.”
That’s pretty obviously where his vulnerable spot is — link him to the nutty votes he’s made in the Senate rather than the soothing “independent” things he says when he’s not in Washington — but that can be a tough sell in itself.
Another Halocene Human
@SFAW: Capuano was a great guy. Guess he didn’t kiss the right rings or whatever. Coakley rode in with the establishment and that was that. The Mass Dems have been a one-party system for too long and are failing under the weight of their own corruption and cronyism.
They need to split in two but right now everyone is too scared. Something will happen, though, and the reckoning will be awful.
dogwood
Warren is actually doing better than I expected her to. I remember getting my ass handed to me on a thread a year or so ago when I expressed the opinion that she wouldn’t be a strong campaigner. She’s not a particularly strong campaigner, but she’s better than I expected. Warren’s problem is that she is too “one note.” She appeals strongly to the anti-Wall Street economic fairness voter, but she doesn’t frame that one note in a way that would bring others to her point of view or make them look at the economic situation in a personal way. As they would say in Hawaii, she doesn’t know how to “talk story.” If she doesn’t tie Scott Brown directly and specifically to votes that have hurt the middle class and working class voters of Mass., she will continue to underperform. And she needs to get off the poor girl from Oklahoma schtick and turn herself into a Massachusetts fighter. I haven’t seen any evidence that she gets this, but I haven’t given up hope.
Brachiator
@different-church-lady:
RE: If you ever listed to Click and Clack carefully, they engage in a ton of self-deprecating humor revolving around status anxiety as blue collar men in that most white collar and overeducated of towns, Cambridge.
Bam! Exactamundo.
Also, too, Click and Clack never tried to hide their educational backgrounds, and the whole point of the show was that behind the humor they were expert auto mechanics who knew their shit.
Double also, too, they never talked down to women callers or had any patience for the BS that car enthusiasm was male specific.
Another Halocene Human
@different-church-lady: Eh, could be. The state GOP put up tons of bad candidates. Like Mitt Romney. Patrick was in good with the lege before he even started and I hate the lege so that was reason enough to hate him, but I wasn’t there and it wasn’t my call. Guess I’ve come around.
Matt McIrvin
@dr. bloor: Yeah, there really wasn’t anybody who’d obviously have done better, absent Ted Kennedy rising from the grave.
Matt McIrvin
@Another Halocene Human: Deval Patrick’s first year or two were rough; he made a lot of political rookie mistakes. I was surprised that he got reelected so easily. But he seems to have gotten it.
Another Halocene Human
@dogwood: And she needs to get off the poor girl from Oklahoma schtick and turn herself into a Massachusetts fighter.
That story about herself not only doesn’t resonate with Mass it seems to accentuate her differences from us. And we know she did go to college and all that so it’s weird. Massachusetts has a much higher average age of first marriage, so, no, we don’t relate to being married as a teenager, and the voters she’s trying to appeal to are proud of their level of educational attainment. I think Boston has the most people with college degrees per capita. Even Scott Brown voters send their kids to UMass. (They’re the ones in the Amherst police blotter with underage DUIs. Same shit they pulled in Boston or Malden, minus the friendly neighborhood cops who protected them all those years.)
Sometimes “just relax and be yourself” isn’t appropriate advice. :DDD
Cassidy
@Spatula: Dumbass.
@Spatula: Yeah, because believeing in bullshit fantasies and conspiracy theories is the sign of intellectual prowess. I’m just amazed that everything that happens in your world is an “Obama’s fault” moment. When you spill some of your juice do you blame Obama for the lid not being on tight enough?
@1badbaba3: You are mistaking whining for blogospheric navel gazing. We’re wanking here in the way that only political junkies can. But, the reality is that everyone wants to see Warren win, gain a Senate seat, and get the chance to turn her esteemed intelligence and wonkishness into Senate do-gooding. But she’s behind and while she has a decent chance of winning, she’s aliberal, running in a liberal state, losing to a truck driving northeastern redneck.
Bokonon
I am a New Yorker married to a woman from New England … and I swear, my wife dings me at least once a week for being “wrong” culturally or not conforming to a New England social or tribal norm. Since we now live several thousand miles away from that culture, I just point and laugh (which further demonstrates what kind of an irreverent New York a**hole I am). But you can step on New England boundaries without even realizing it.
Good thing my wife and I love each other, because we definately annoy each other.
I lived in Massachusetts for several years, and it is insular, insular, insular and tribal, tribal, tribal. Maine is even worse.
Marc
@Spatula: “Either way, the Obama administration’s plan to do away with Liz Warren is working out just as planned. Rather than kicking ass from a powerful perch as head of the CFPB she created, she is fighting for her political life against Scott Brown and will likely lose, thus becoming immediately irrelevant.”
Giving her a prime-time speaking slot at his convention might interfere with his master plan.
Unless… he knew her delivery wouldn’t go over well with Massachussetts voters, and he gave her one of the highest-profile spots in the convention as an elaborate form of sabotage! That is some TWELFTH-dimensional chess right there.
mds
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
@SFAW:
Yup. Brown has repeatedly declared that “Professor Warren [He never fails to shit all over the fact that she is a college professor] is running against me, not against Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan.” He then neglects to mention that he would vote for virtually everything on their agenda, and drives his goddamn prop pickup truck around some more. (I mean, what has he ever needed to haul around in a pickup? His law school textbooks? His modeling wardrobe? His nonexistent moderate voting record? More horseshit to spread on the grass in Hahvahd Fuckin’ Yahd?)
The Warren campaign need to wake up and get specific about the anti-Massachusetts, anti-worker, anti-Obama voting record of this phony-baloney “likeable” ass pustule. Hell, if someone from the Warren campaign hasn’t found out a way to use Mickey Ward’s apparent 180-degree reversal on Scotty, once he took ten minutes to figure out what Scotty actually stands for, then she really does deserve to lose.
Another Halocene Human
@Brachiator:
Exactly. They were so likeable because they were real and funny and didn’t take themselves too seriously. They took the piss out of class and gender and educational differences with humor instead of trying to be Howie Carr. (They didn’t exude a hostile attitude to professional people, which made them approachable, as often professional people are intimidated by auto mechanics, but they didn’t grovel or try to hide their background… any of it.)
I remember one show where they joked that MIT had a special door for people like them–and it was marked “Deliveries Only”. The brothers fell out laughing.
Those who ask why Scott Brown first need to ask why Howie Carr? That guy is a transparent phoney.
Another Halocene Human
@Matt McIrvin: All of my family/friends were VERY enthused about Patrick. Even early on. Maybe they were just that sick of GOP governors. They’ve all of them, to a man and woman, SUCKED.
1badbaba3
@Cassidy: That’s cool. Just as long as there’s nobody out there that actually believes Team O is going to lose to that Yahoo AGAIN.
Aw, hayull naw.
Another Halocene Human
@Spatula:
Hahahahahaha, finally you say something entertaining after all that trolling.
Seriously, though, the hardcore lefties in Boston are losers. Maybe the Kennedys and the LaRouche cult sucked up all the oxygen? Go west, young man. There are real hippies out west.
Hell, Northampton, Massachusetts is pretty damn liberal/out there.
dww44
@Cacti: I was so thinking the same thing last night. Has there ever been a woman elected to represent the state on the national stage? Also, I’ve longed believed that the state is not as liberal as we’d like to believe. Think back just to the Gates affair. But, honestly, it goes back much further in time than that.
Another Halocene Human
@hep kitty: I totally don’t understand this. I’m a southerner so how many times do you think I run into a Barack Obama or any successful black man down here? I wasn’t a huge fan, quite frankly, but that was because I felt he was too conciliatory to the other side, not because I could not relate to him on a personal level b/c we had different experiences and backgrounds. I sure as heck wasn’t voting for McCain!
Obama is good at conveying “I may not be the same as you, but I care about you and I’m going to fight for you.” Another commenter said the other day that Obama has a core of self-confidence and comfort in his own identity. He exudes empathy, which is more powerful than trying to pretend to be somebody you’re not to pander to voters.
Warren has empathy too but mostly what she expressed last night was anger.
ETA: Obama’s skill at doing this is very important because he was perceived as being very smart, and that’s usually considered a political liability. He had people saying in 2008 that they WANTED a president who was smarter than them. This year, the theme at DNC is “being president hasn’t changed him–he’s still connected to you”. This is how he wins and inspires such passion.
Rhoda
She’s got a great message. She’s pretty. She’s a grandmother. But she doesn’t play on the stage IMO. She had a great speech and she screwed up the delivery; which is weird because that video of her at a house party was really compelling and she connected.
I think she had a so-so night; I’m not going to judge her on it. She’s done better through; I’ve seen the video. I’m hoping that President’s Obama’s coattails will get her into the senate.
Cassidy
@dww44: To be fair, people generally assume a state is liberal, when they realy have very large and prominent metropolitan areas surrounded by rednecks. Have you been to New York? The state is a giant frakkin’ farm.
Another Halocene Human
@SFAW:
Oh, snap.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Another Halocene Human:
Agreed: He got my vote in the primary (hometown boy, not much older than me, he was mayor of Somerville for most of the 90s, and holds Tip O’Neill’s old seat). But IMO he was a little too Townie to appeal to the suburban voters. (Yep, back to the accents again). And there are still blue-collar Irish over 50 who won’t vote for the Italian guy. Seriously.
The only folks outside of Rte 128 who vote in Democratic primaries are women and lawyers. So we ended up with the woman lawyer as the candidate.
Wasn’t a total loss though, Coakley’s an excellent, competent AG. One of the few in the country who’s been going after the mortgage banks for trying to foreclose on homes using shoddy paperwork. Hopefully she’ll stay where she is for a good long time.
dww44
@Spatula: So, what do you say about the fact that had Obama proposed her to lead the CPFB that she would never have been confirmed by the Senate? Does that possibility not have any credence? Or, do you think the administration purposefully hung her out to dry? That they weren’t courageous enough in submitting her name into nomination?
ellennelle
@Bokonon:
i believe the word is “provincial, provincial, provincial”!!
for all its progressive laws and break-throughs, and its progressive representation in congress, the state as a whole is very old world. which translates as a rigid bias against women.
i mean, we have NEVER ELECTED A WOMAN AS GOVERNOR OR SENATOR!!
and it may not happen in november, either.
i campaign for warren, and you would not believe some of the responses i get on phone calls. one guy who works for the financial industry joyfully exclaimed he would not be voting for her because regulations doom the economy.
i mean, what do you say to that.
and oh yeah, there’s also a lot of very big and very old money here. remember, this is where mitt made his gazillions.
Another Halocene Human
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
Salvaging her legacy, eh?
Cassidy
@dww44: No, it wasn’t PURE enough!
@ellennelle: Tell him he’s what’s wrong with this country and you hope he dies in a fiery car accident on the way home. Him and his buddies aren’t going to be persuaded anyway so you might as well get the satisfaction.
Elie
@EconWatcher:
I agree. I find her very annoying in her presentation style.
I also know that I am going to invite flames, but she needs to tighten up her physical presentation — get some new eyeglass frames and make her hair look like its more than just on her head. She looked ungroomed for a professional politician who needs to have the whole deal together in these more conservative times. That relaxed professor look is not a winner and messages some unintentional culture war signals which I would think that she would want to mute in a tight election.
Just my opinion.
Elie
Let me add: What Elizabeth signals is that she has all the answers — not that she will work with her constituents to surface THEIR answers. She is judgemental in a sweeping way that doesnt showcase her ability to pull her punches to cajole an opponent (like ya know, to work with em) if need be. She is the smartest girl in the class. And she is. But that always irritates as much as it impresses.
Paula
Wow, you were all hepped up about Elizabeth Warren when she first jumped into this thing.
I figure she’ll bounce back into public policy if she loses the Senate this year — if not right away, she always has a professorship to return to. But she knows her shit, and more importantly she’s tight with Barack Obama. How horrid for the Troo Progressives ™ who used to champion her regularly that the Democratic Party is still her best hope of getting any of her favored policies enacted.
Where be all of those Troo Progressives ™ now? Were they so angry that she decided to run at all?
Some Loser
@Paula:
Nobody hear dislikes Warren. Where is anyone getting this impression?
They’re just critiquing her campaigning style. It is simple as that. We want her to win, but we don’t think her current route is the way towards success.
SFAW
@Another Halocene Human:
And how did you arrive at that conclusion? He spent a fair amount of time in the Commonwealth (FSM save it!) before running for Governor.
Or is the hate just because has first two-plus years were an almost-unbroken stretch of screw-ups?
And what’s with the Coakley hate? I’m still pissed at her for giving the seat to Brown, but as an AG, both before and after her “I’m not a Senate candidate, but I play one on TV” thing, she’s done OK.
SFAW
@SFAW:
HIS first two-plus years.
FYWP