Freddie has the teacher pay issue covered (don’t miss this post on his blog, especially if you’re not a fan of Slate), but here’s my question: what are we paying them for?
Are they enhanced babysitters? That seems to be the position of the longer school day movement. I’m not talking about extending the school day in Chicago by an hour, but rather about the effort to keep kids in schools until the end of the day so they don’t get in trouble with gangs or are affected by other issues related to their lack of stable home life. If we keep kids in school from 7-8 AM to 5-6 PM, and we’re not throwing a shitload of money into hiring staff and creating meaningful, fun programs for the new hours, then are teachers just supposed to hand out juice and cookies and make sure nobody leaves?
Are they family therapists? That seems to be the general attitude of, for example, Bob Duffy, current New York Lieutenant Governor and former Mayor of Rochester. He would constantly point out the connection between crime and the lack of high school diplomas, and he pushed for mayoral control as an antidote to what ailed our city schools. But even with mayoral control, how are teachers, the main agents of schools, supposed to fix the host of family problems that keep kids from getting a diploma?
It’s quite clever rhetoric for mayors and Republicans to focus the discussion on some of the dysfunction surrounding unionized teachers, but is this any more than a somewhat sophisticated form of scapegoating? Imagine all the “bad” teachers are fired tomorrow, pay the rest of them whatever pittance is deemed “fair” and you’re still left with the problem we started with: poverty and its effects on inner city schools.
Davis X. Machina
Ask any kid, and the main agents of schools are the other kids in them. All the good definitions of ‘curriculum’ will remind us that the totality of what a student experiences in a school is the curriculum. The part we usually think of as the curriculum is just the formal or intentional curriculum.
And no, it’s not pedantry or hair-splitting…
taylormattd
Did Freddie retract or apologize for his post here? The post where he trashed the fuck out of Ezra Klein for a post that Ezra didn’t even write?
Violet
My experience of being a teacher is that it’s one third teaching, one third counseling, one third maintaining order. If you get to go above one third of your time on teaching, you’re doing alright.
Marc
If we were talking about putting kids in school for 11 hours I’d agree. In Chicago it’s 5 1/2 hours. A bit longer day is reasonable and it appears that you agree.
The after school programs that I’m familiar with involve staff other than teachers. so this is a bit of a mixture of topics. Working parents do need child care.
A longer school year would probably have more pedagogic value than longer days. A lot of schools have squeezed out recess, eliminated gym, and shortened lunch hours. I do think that kids will do better if they’re not chained to their desks for the entire day, and that’s another good reason for longer school days.
The Ancient Randonneur
So this is a liberal plot! They’re trying to get the taxpayers to support single payer daycare! SOCIA1ISTS! SINGLE PAYER DAYCARE!
But why address the very real issues facing classroom teachers when you expect them to fix all the problems in the system–without an appropriate raise in pay.
Southern Beale
America’s Next Generation a GOP superpac just called me and had me listen to their new ad. Hilarious.
Don’t know why they called me. They must be calling EVERYONE in my area code. Sign of desperation or, probably, incompetence.
I told the lady I didn’t know why they were calling me as I’m a registered Democrat and have never voted Republican in my life. I also said I thought they were fucking nuts. She said, “Oh all calls are recorded!” (in other words, “language!”)
Good grief.
SatanicPanic
My kid goes to a free afterschool program. They do some activities, some sports, some of them will help the kids with their homework. It’s not high-level stuff, but he likes going. I’m sure it’s not costing a ton to run the progam.
Davis X. Machina
@Southern Beale: Let them record away. The truth of the assertion is the ultimate affirmative defense against libel — and they are fucking nuts.
Dennis SGMM
To me, blaming unionized teachers for the failure to educate is a very, very handy way to duck any number of other issues. By doing that those who blame don’t have to explain long standing poverty, the effects of needing both parents to be wage earners, single parent households, decreased funding for education, and any number of etceteras that I’m confident the folks who comment here could provide.
It’s deflection of the highest order.
ItAintEazy
If you want some yuks, try calculating what an average teacher will make in a year if we actually DO pay them like babysitters.
Southern Beale
@Davis X. Machina:
Nothing wrong with telling someone you think they’re fucking nuts, is there?
I just looked up America’s Next Generation on OpenSecrets. One of their small-$ donors is a US Postal Svc letter carrier from Texas. Why the fuck would a letter carrier donate to a Republican Super-Pac? I don’t get people sometimes, I really don’t.
Fucking nuts.
Rex Everything
Jesus! Freddie’s nuking of Jacob Weisberg is epic, and Weisberg fully deserves it. Well done.
David in NY
The NY Times editorial today is appalling — the Times at its worst (unlike others here, I think the Times ordinarily can be very, very good — nobody has called out the Romney lies more). They’ve bought the kool-aid about teacher evaluation based on standardized testing being some kind of cure — though the only reason for adopting it that they can cite is that lots of places are doing it.
Of course, their news section yesterday noted the kindergarten teacher with 43 5-year-olds in her class — I’m sure standardized tests will accurately show the quality of her teaching under those conditions. /snark
Sly
In fairness, part of our unspecified job description is to be babysitters and family counselors. Maintaining an orderly classroom and navigating through the complexities of a student’s life outside of school to the best of your ability is more than half the job, and the latter includes much more than just knowing when its necessary to get Child Protective Services involved. That’s actually the easy part.
David in NY
@ItAintEazy:
.
Now, now. You’re supposed to show your work.
Mark S.
@Southern Beale:
What, is she going to call your parents?
Sly
@David in NY:
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if, in 10 years, we’re handing out scantrons to students in art and music classes. I’d be significantly less surprised if we stopped including those subjects entirely.
Rafer Janders
Why are they in school from 7-8 AM in the first place? Especially as they get older? It’s completely off-schedule with most parents’ work schedules, and just ensures that whole family has to get up about one to two hours earlier than they normally would. If I have to drop my kids off at 7 AM and only have to be at work at 9 PM, it blows a tremendous hole in the morning; it would be much easier for everybody to leave at roughly the same time.
This is particularly disastrous for teenagers, whose normal body clocks drive them to go to bed later and wake up later, and ensures that they’re semi-exhausted all morning.
PeakVT
With high-school kids, the day doesn’t really need to be extended that much to keep them out of trouble. It just needs to start later. I got out of high school at 2:05, and the ‘rents got home at 5:30 or 6:00. That’s a lot of time to get in trouble (which I didn’t really put to use, for better or worse).
Sly
@SatanicPanic:
Depends on attendance levels (which should determine staffing and resources) and whether or nor bus transportation is provided. Transportation is an often a cost that is vastly underestimated by the public.
Davis X. Machina
@Southern Beale: Team spirit. Go Big Red. Oh, wait, you mean my job?
Davis X. Machina
@Rafer Janders:
If it hurts, it must be good for you. No-pain-no-gain scheduling. Increases virtue, probity, and other intangibles among the troops.
And everyone’s done in plenty of time for practices, when the real business of high school begins.
Sly
@PeakVT:
The number one reason for the way school hours are structured is to create an efficient transportation schedule and save on bussing costs.
David in NY
@Sly: You jest. I hope.
You know, reducing everything to multiple-choice problems is a curse. For example, in NY, most of the Regents test (nominally, but not actually, the test for graduating from high school) in mathematics is multiple-choice testing that relies largely on testing about mathematical definitions, not problem solving skills or application of math concepts. That is, it’s another vocabulary test, which is the basic multiple choice format. This is stupid.
grandpa john
@Davis X. Machina: @Southern Beale: Did she advise you of this recording BEFORE she started talking?
shortstop
The unofficial position of Emanuel and the CPS seems to be that the extra 90 minutes per day should be used to help students cram for The Test. When teachers focus all their efforts on teaching to The Test, student performance on The Test goes up, all creativity and flexibility is sapped from every teacher’s approach, and students have lost all critical thinking and problem-solving skills in favor of rote memorization, Rahm will then declare victory as an educational reformer. Not incidentally, the GOP will also be much farther along the path of total dismantlement of unions.
I keep thinking of Ma Emanuel telling some reporter that Rahm isn’t even the most accomplished of her trio of sons. That becomes more and more apparent each year, but he appears to also be the Rosie Ruiz of her brood.
grandpa john
@David in NY: Hey, all them tests cost a whole lot of money to go into some corporations pocket
Violet
@Rafer Janders:
You go to work at 9 p.m.? Okay, even if you meant 9 a.m., who the hell goes to work at 9 a.m.? Every place I’ve worked started at 8:00 a.m. at the latest. Most often I had to be there at 7:30 or earlier. Maybe management can waltz in at 9 a.m., but peons can’t. And management can afford childcare. Peons cannot.
paradox
It’s a know phenomenon that many schools stay “open” during holidays and the summer so kid nutrition programs don’t stop. If the schools closed all those kids would have no breakfast or lunch.
Divorce is rampant. Many families were like mine, horrifyingly violent and regressing with alcoholism. Untold idiots in society ignore all of it and scream at the teachers and the schools.
We abuse our kids already with the resources we allocate. When I hear folks demanding education perform all these miracles I know I’m looking at a selfish shithead who doesn’t want to spend on kids and society. Or not for, you know, those other people.
Having been exposed to this for four decades I know 2 things: advocacy for education like this blog works. When our terrible wussy Democratic leadership does not our kids suffer and lose.
Fuck, you should see the total loser in our Governor, Jerry Brown, he couldn’t defend kids or education to save his teeny little Republican testicles, so he proposes a sales tax increase.
We’re fucked. Until we get real leadership that embraces liberalism were fucked and losing with pussies like Jerry Brown.
Violet
@Rafer Janders:
This is very true. High schools should start late, like 9:00 a.m. or later. Elementary schools should start earliest, since little kids tend to wake up earlier.
Sly
@David in NY:
I’m not. To save on money a few years ago, NYS actually scrapped a few 8th grade assessments. Now, this might seem like a boon to the teachers; “I don’t have to teach to the test anymore! Hurray!”
But that wasn’t the reaction. The state did something similar years earlier with 5th grade assessments and decided that, since they were no longer going to test those subjects, they weren’t going to fund those subjects either. Knowing this, teachers in the 8th grade subjects that were affected actually lobbied to have those assessments reinstated.
Bill in Section 147
The scapegoating and teacher-hate is a side effect. The Teacher’s Union donates to Democrats. This is the reason there is an organized well-funded anti-teacher movement.
If it really was “the kids” then the movement would be local and varied. In one district the complaints would be the union protecting a bad teacher and in the other it would be parent’s demanding the administration make cuts in athletics not music.
cathyx
Our elementary schools have a before and after school program. It’s only at the elementary school level. Kids can be dropped off as early as 6:00am and kids can stay as late as 6:00pm. I doubt very much that any single kid stays 6:00am to 6:00pm. Some parents do have to be at work that early and some parents do have to work as late as that. It generally costs the parents money to put them in it, although I believe there are free options if you qualify. It is run by different staff than who teaches and works for the school district. I knew some moms who worked for the extended care.
Nicole
@Rafer Janders:
It’s after-school sports, I think people here have said. As someone who had no physical gifts whatsoever in school, I would have loved to have gone to school from 9-5, but for those kids who played sports, it would have made for a very late night.
grandpa john
@Sly: yes when you consider especially rural areas and the long bus routs on buses that get very low gas milage. Thats why we see elementary age kids standing out in the dark at 6:30 on cold winter mornings some with no breakfast, waiting for the bus, and people wonder why they are not all bright eyed and bushy tailed in the classroom, half asleep instead of eagerly absorbing todays lesson. The biggest problem with the school system is the the people who know the most about what really goes on, are the ones with the least say and the least listened to, in attempting to solve the problems
cathyx
@Nicole: It’s not just sports. My daughter is in jazz band and it meets from 6:30am-7:30am every morning. School starts at 7:50am.
grandpa john
And I think that I do know a little about it since I spent 28 years teaching in public high school, 27 of the the same school.
artem1s
@David in NY:
no, lots of schools are PAYING for it. Who’s getting paid to develop, administer, and score the tests. Privatizing is at the middle of all of this reform crap.
Oh, and finding a reason to bust the unions.
Sly
@Violet:
School districts in which I worked and in which I currently live have all attempted to modify school hours to conform to best practice guidelines, which entail starting high school hours a bit later in the day. Yet they’ve never been able to do it.
The problem isn’t parents’ schedules, but transportation costs. Every school district maintains a fleet of buses and a pool of drivers, and have created schedules to maximize usage and hours. When those drivers start their day, they usually pick up the high school kids first and drop them off to the one high school in the district, repeat for middle-school kids, and then work their way out to the elementary schools. The schedule runs like clockwork, and modifying it in the slightest would entail hiring more drivers and/or buying more buses. When those proposals failed, it was always the property tax issue.
RSR
In response to question one, schools–at least the poor urban schools that are the main targets of ‘ed reform’–have become the provider of last resort for virtually everything that society should provide. Education, of course, but also nutrition, health, dental and eye care for physical needs, psychology, and to an extent psychiatry with nurses (if available) or administrators providing meds. Discipline, family therapy, judicial interaction for those accused, convicted or adjudicated. And it goes on.
As for question two: I already mentioned the psychology and therapy aspects, but the kicker there is that many of those serviced are outsourced to private groups, foundations, etc, with few credentials, little oversight, and virtually no accountability. In my wife’s school at least, the money for those services comes right off the top of the schools budget. The uptick in those services over the last few decades was the first step in the great education skimming program.
ItAintEazy
@David in NY:
Fine, I’ll bite. think $3 per hour per kid, multiplied by a 6.5 hour workday (LOL) multiplied by an average class size of 25 kids (LOOOL), multiplied by only 180 days a year (LOOOOOOOL), and you’ll be paying teachers over $87,700, which is a hell of a lot more than that laughingly inflated “average teacher pay” that Rahm Emmanuel and the CPS keep citing.
Violet
@Sly: Can’t they just reverse it? Pick up elementary kids first, then middle school, then high school?
pablo
Headline:
Parents Who Don’t Care about Educational Quality Condemn Babysitter’s Strike
Rafer Janders
@ItAintEazy:
$3 per kid? That seems pretty low. Here as a comparison is Childcare.com: “Depending on your job requirements and expectations, an adult babysitter is likely to expect pay of at least $8 an hour, and perhaps up to $12 or even more an hour if you live in a major city.”
So even at $8/hr, we get $8 x 6.5 x 25 x 180 = $234,000. By babysitter metrics, teachers are severely underpaid.
hitchhiker
@shortstop:
What you said. Also, see this clip from The Wire, in which the rules of the game politicians are playing are defined.
grandpa john
@Violet: @Violet: Again here where I live with vast rural areas, they can’t afford to make 3 bus runs everyone but K gets picked up on the same run, K has their own buses.
Sly
@Violet:
Direct flips can’t work unless all start times are reasonable. If you want high school to start at a later hour (say, 9:30), scheduling efficiency demands that all school hours start later as well.
At my local bus stop, the high school bus arrives at 7:15, the middle school bus arrives at around 7:30, and the elementary bus arrives at 7:45, and the district found difficulty in flipping that schedule because of the time differences between the elementary school and middle/high school routes.
Flipping and/or pushing to a later schedule may work in some districts (I think it might be easier in smaller ones), but in urban districts with thousands of students, or moderate to large suburban districts like mine with 4.5k students? Its a logistical nightmare.
RSR
Oh, and consider this perspective. If you factor the time that a student spends in school from first grade through twelfth grade (with kindergarten being optional, half-day or not even available in many areas) vs their lifespan from birth to age 18, they only spend about 10% of their time on earth in school.
What about the other 90% of their lives?
Even if you just consider their school age years, students still only spend about 15% of their time in school.
Let me know when the other 85% – 90% of their lives get the critical scrutiny that urban public education is getting. Until then, education reform is simply demagoguery aimed at accessing the financial reservoir of the public education system.
Violet
@grandpa john: Yeah, obviously if you’re in a rural area where everyone rides the same bus, it’s an issue. I was thinking of more urban/suburban, since most people seem to reside in those areas these days. But I certainly get why rural distracts have distinct problems with it.
@Sly: I will defer to your knowledge on it. On the surface it just seems silly–just reverse it. But I know that nothing is as simple as that.
ItAintEazy
@Rafer Janders:
Pfft! What? You think babysitters should get paid minimum wage or something?
SatanicPanic
@Sly: No buses for afterschool programs, at least here, because the kids get picked up at different times. That sucks for parents, I guess, but it’s better than trying to find daycare.
When I was in Japan there was no bus system because kids would ride the regular bus. I know there’s some logistical problems with that here, but that seems smarting than running a duplicate bus system.
Sly
@SatanicPanic:
That actually does happen here, but mostly in urban districts. They give out free bus passes for public transit routes to high school students, and its actually cheaper. But it can only work effectively when the public transit routes line up with the school bus routes.
shortstop
Yeah, like most U.S. communities have zero or laughably limited public transit.
Reading this interesting thread, I’m thinking about how making high school start later is tough not only in terms of syncing school bus transportation for all grades, but also for parents who drive their kids to school and have, say, one kid in elementary school, another in junior high and another in high school. In Manhattan, Chicago, San Francisco and other big cities with well-developed public transit, high-school kids can get themselves to and from school via public trans. Pretty much nowhere else in the country is that a real option.
Elly
Looking at this thread, one of the things that struck me, was that these conversations are always between adults – parents, teachers, professionals and the like.
That group describes me too, btw.
But if my kids are anything to go by, then the students themselves should be part of the conversation about schools and education.
When they were part of the system, they made all sorts of dead-on observations about what was right… and wrong about how their schools/classes operated. They cared enough to bitch about it – just like my daughter did here: http://tellyroftales.com/?p=465 – but the gulf between the “actors” and the “acted upon” just seems to get broader, everytime “school reform” comes up.
Arclite
I would like to at least have the option of free public school based after school care for my kids. There aren’t a lot of options where I’m at.