Josh Marshall is worried. He writes:
Netanyahu knows that his leverage over the White House grows each day the US gets closer to election day. The day after election day it drops precipitously. That’s a volatile and dangerous set of circumstances. Netanyahu seems to be threatening to start meddling in the US elections if Obama doesn’t come to his position. Or rather, he is meddling and threatening more. Or, more worrisomely, he’s fixing to launch an attack now while he figures the election will constrain Obama’s options as much as possible.
John has already addressed the issue of Israeli meddling in our domestic politics somewhat, but I wanted a add a few points, riffing off Josh’s piece:
(1) The idea that Natayahu’s leverage increases until election day and then drops thereafter is, I think, an oversimplification. What is true is that the more Natanyahu tries to exert leverage before election day, the less leverage he’ll have after assuming an Obama victory. Bibi is essentially gambling that he can swing the election over the Iran issue. This strikes me as a reckless gamble from Israel’s perspective, since Obama is currently leading and as the incumbent he probably benefits marginally from foreign policy being more central to the election.
(2) Obama also has high approval numbers on foreign policy than does Romney, which is not surprising because Romney is personally ignorant of foreign policy, and he’s surrounded himself with second rate folks as advisers.
(3) The notion that Israel will launch a unilateral attack on Iran is almost surely a bluff. It is not clear how they would do it, and no analysis I’ve seen suggests that can launch an effective attack by themselves. Natanyahu may be reckless, but Israel is, in the end, a democracy, and there are checks and balances as well as various civil-military constraints on action.
So while the Obama team may not be eager to get into a pissing match with Natanyahu over Iran in the weeks before the election, there isn’t any “reason to fear” that this situation will transform the election. If anything, Obama’s steady foreign policy hand would be a plus when compared to the desperate rants we’re likely to get from the Romney camp.
That said, remember how the right-wingers got crazy about how “Chinese money” had been used to affect the 1996 election? We had a DoJ investigation and Congressional investigations.
But somehow now, when a foreign power is openly and unambiguously trying to intervene in domestic politics, all we get is crickets. I’m not saying Obama should pick this fight himself, but it would be nice if someone with some visibility would come out and explicitly condemn Israeli meddling in American domestic politics.
Punchy
….and commit political suicide in the meantime….
Jim C.
Yeesh. Look at the comments section of that article. Rightwing lunatics coming out of the woodwork.
kindness
Israel could attack Iran once, but they don’t have the support hardware to be able to have the continuous attacks that wiping out Iran’s nuclear program would require. Israel know this. The US knows this. The media doesn’t seem to know shit any more.
Another thing…Josh has changed. TPM used to be one of my go to sites. It isn’t any longer.
shortstop
“Someone” should come out and explicitly condemn it, yeah, but no one in public office. However, the Obama administration pretty much openly called Bibi a liar last night by flatly denying that a meeting was refused.
The Moar You Know
The Middle East danger is not from Israel at the moment. Obama needs to close the Egyptian embassy and get everyone out after the incident yesterday, otherwise it’s going to be 1980’s hostage crisis all over again and that’ll be the fucking ballgame for the election.
Bernard Finel
@Punchy: It does not need to be a politician. I could be a prominent business leader or a media personality.
GregB
I am curious if Romney’s defense of free speech would extend to a film promoting the idea of Joseph Smith being a pedophile?
Or would he take to the airwaves denouncing it as dangerous religious bigotry?
Chyron HR
Yeah, but forgeign policy is a “shiny object”, per the Romney campaign.
Jim C.
@Jim C.: Meant to post this (comment #2 above) in the “Romney and the RNC Confuse the Timeline” thread referencing the comments to the ABC News article.
Comrade Jake
I wonder what Jennifer Rubin thinks about all of this.
Violet
The Today Show told me this morning that Obama and Netanyahu spent an hour on the phone last night.
jibeaux
Somewhat O/T, but if you don’t even know enough to make your first official response to a major diplomatic incident in which people die something other than “my opponent sucks lol”, you’re profoundly, fundamentally unsuited for leadership or for continued membership in the society of decent human beings. I realize that isn’t news to anyone here, but carry on.
Violet
@GregB: Maybe he’ll get asked that question during the debates.
Carl Nyberg
I would like to sign a petition to the UN Security Council calling for the individual countries on the UNSC to call for Israel to cease and desist making threat to international peace and to fully declare its own nuclear weapons program.
Let’s see how many people around the world we can get to sign that petition.
Comrade Jake
Oh, that’s right, she doesn’t think. Shorter Rubin: Black Jimmy Carter! Black Jimmy Carter!
Brian R.
Bibi might be meddling in hopes of helping Romney, but he’s only going to hurt his chances. The country rallies around the president in times of foreign crisis, while Romney has proven himself to be woefully incompetent and wholly ignorant when it comes to foreign affairs.
Also, if everyone’s focused on foreign issues, the economy — Romney’s best hope — fades from view.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@The Moar You Know:
While that would suck I don’t think that would help Mittens. All it would do is drag up how worthless Romney is on Foreign Affairs and Obama’s shown he is not above some shock and aw when needed.
KXB
This is repost of a comment I put over at The American Conservative, addressing the same subject:
To apply an old phrase to a new context, there is a “silent majority” of Americans who have no desire for another war. For various reasons, this “silent majority” cannot tell the Israeli PM to go jump in a lake, but I suspect Israeli voters will do that, if they suspect that Bibi’s actions are undermining their relationship with the U.S.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/bibi-needs-a-time-out/
GregB
Speaking of standing on bodies.
Drudge has been front-paging a picture of the body of the US Ambassador.
Republicans love to show dead Americans on parade when there’s a Democrat in the White House.
Shawn in ShowMe
Personally, that would send a tingle through my leg but strategically, it isn’t necessary. With the electorate becoming increasingly Democratic, AIPAC money won’t be required to win presidential elections. Israel’s attempted meddling won’t matter.
If you need personal satisfaction, you’ll have to settle for President Castro commanding Israel in 2024 to “tear down this wall.”
West of the Cascades
Bill Clinton might be the right “someone” to condemn this.
Jim, Foolish Literalist and Fact Checker
Tommy Friedman, your life is calling
Butch
Maybe somewhat lost in all this – Americablog made the point forcefully a few months back that America could very well lose a war with Iran, because so much of the Revolution Guard are fanatics who would not leave the confrontation on Iranian soil. Picture mall bombings in Modine.
beltane
@KXB: I really do not want to depend on the Israeli public for a resolution to this. Under Netanyahu’s leadership, Israel has been transformed into a highly dysfunctional, not-as-democratic-as-it-used-to-be society, where fanaticism of all kind rules. As Americans, we have the duty to speak out about what is best for our country without fear of offending our supposed allies.
Villago Delenda Est
Bibi’s problem is his leverage is evaporating right now.
And he knows it.
He’s as desperate as OvenMitt is.
Mr Stagger Lee
@GregB: He did that years ago when an American was beheaded in Afghanistan, and showed the results in all its gory details. Drudge wants the Crusades to start again. Also Reince Priebus needs to get his ass kicked, or parachuted in Egypt with T-shirt written in Arabic slandering the Prophet Mohammed with vile images, F–k Priebus and the whore who spawned him!
chopper
@jibeaux:
i used to think the guy was bush league, but now i’m thinking T-ball.
Culture of Truth
He’s gambling he can swing the Iran issue through the election.
Brian R.
I love Mitt Romney insisting in his press conference that “the time has come for America to lead in the Middle East.”
Presumably by giving the keys to American foreign policy there to Bibi Netanyahu.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
hmm, the Orange Peril is live blogging Mittens statements he is making just seconds before Hilary’s. Just weird and none of Mitten’s comments make any sense. this is starting to feel like when McCain suspended his campaign in ’08, doesn’t it?
Is he trying to set the narrative for the Conservative parallel universe?
Carl Nyberg
BTW, how do you think the Israeli government reacted in private to the Democratic delegates voting down something the Israeli government wanted?
It seems like the Israeli government, the Israel Lobby and the Zionist movement have to be picking up on the fact that public opinion is swinging against Israel with significant constituencies.
Obama delegates aren’t a bunch of radical bloggers. They are largely party apparatchiks, joiners and social climbers, not people inclined to be critical of U.S. policy.
I see Zionism going the way of segregation. Eventually a critical mass of the Democratic Party realizes that Zionism is inherently about stealing land from one ethnic group and giving it to another ethnic group. And that real world Zionism requires human rights abuses to be perpetrated against Palestinians and Israeli Arabs in perpetuity.
When the Democratic Party starts questioning the behavior of Israel and the morality of Zionism, a bunch of Jewish Zionists will leave the Democratic Party in a huff, like the Dixiecrats did. And it will make it harder to win elections and easier to do the right thing.
Matt McIrvin
The Iran hostage crisis began a year before the 1980 election. It took months for the effect on Carter’s popularity to even become negative.
Initially it helped him (which is why there was that spate of stories about how Obama was doing worse than Carter at the same point in the election cycle).
Emma
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Timing is everything in politics. Mitt’s timing sucks. The “press conference” doesn’t seem to have gone so well, and his remarks will be seen in the light of Hilary’s and the President’s. Good luck with that, buddy.
gorram
“Natanyahu may be reckless, but Israel is, in the end, a democracy, and there are checks and balances as well as various civil-military constraints on action.”
I wonder if anyone in 2002 or pre-election 2000 might have said “Bush may be reckless, but the US is, in the end, a democracy, and there are checks and balances as well as various civil-military constraints on action.”
If there’s been one trend in international policies in the past decade or so, it’s been that we can’t count on the stability of past political structures – democratic or otherwise.
JGabriel
__
__
Bernard Finel @ Top:
I don’t how long President Obama’s advantage on foreign policy will hold up with a dead diplomat in the picture. Fox will likely make that the lead story every day until the next foreign policy tragedy, with special emphasis on blaming the deaths on the President and portraying him as weak and ineffective, and the MSM will probably follow its lead — because a dead diplomat is real news, as opposed to the usual outrages Fox tries to gin up.
I find this whole situation very volatile and troubling.
.
flukebucket
How long before Romney refers to Libya as the Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Emma: Depends; was he going for a split screen with Obama or was he just talking to The Base(tm)?
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@KXB:
I wonder how Israeli voters would react if it were politely explained to them that Bibi’s backing the side that sincerely believes that war and conflagration in Israel is necessary to bring Jeebus back from Heaven?
Dominionists think of Israel as a means to an end. They are NOT friends of that country, whatever the rhetoric.
The Other Chuck
@Comrade Jake:
Shorter Shorter Rubin: Black!
Neldob
Of course
it will be too late to change the momentum. Israel will have destroyed itself, and lots of other lives too. Israel-tear down that wall.
jibeaux
@chopper: Seriously. I accept the fact that Mitt considers his career ambitions first before everything else, such as other people’s lives. Not figuring out that you don’t have to broadcast that fact on twitter is, yes, T-ball. Or pee wee soccer, where the entire group of kids moves like a swarm of bees around the ball.
KXB
@beltane:
Yes, Israeli domestic politics gives an outsized influence to fringe parties like Shas. But since 1973, there has been one point of agreement – do not jeopardize the relationship with America. Bibi is coming awfully close to that, and there have already been public pronouncements by former Israeli military and intelligence chiefs that he has gone too far.
While I do not expect much from the Congress, it would be nice if more American media types would point out the absurdity of Israel demanding the U.S. go to war on its behalf. Joe Klein, Roger Cohen, and Tom Friedman have written to that effect, but it would be nice if non-Jewish types can criticize without being branded as an anti-Semite.
jwb
@JGabriel: Of course, it’s hard to know how it will play out, but Obama has generally been quite good at managing these sorts of crises, and a crisis does allow him to bypass the media filter to a large extent which allows him to more effectively counter the wurlitzer.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Other Chuck:
You would think that Rubin, being Jewish, would kinda realize that it might not be a good idea to align yourself with people who call the entire United States governmental apparatus the “Zionist Occupation Government.”
Because to these people, Jews are not “white”.
schrodinger's cat
@JGabriel: I don’t think there is any reason to start panicking just yet. This is when Obama is at his best, in a crisis, he is cool and level headed. Remember the financial crisis and McCain’s sputtering response, Mittens response kinda reminds me of this.
TheStone
@KXB: Asking for glass jaws to not be made out of glass.
Emma
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: If he’s speaking to the base, hes wasting his spit. They will vote for anything that can make semi-human sounds instead of Obama. If he’s speaking to the rest of the country… he’s just given Obama more ammunition.
kindness
@Carl Nyberg:
Couple points…Zionism isn’t owned by the Israeli right. There are still many Reformed Congregations (Jewish) that support Zionism but do not support annexing the West Bank or taking their land. Don’t confuse Zionism with the right wing.
The other thing…how many Jewish extremists do you really think are out there? Enough to swing elections? Hardly. Those folk are already voting Republican. Stop huffing the glue. That stuff will kill you if you don’t die from a self induced stroke first.
Cacti
@Emma:
Bibi and Mittens have no leverage because the American public has war fatigue. After the pig in a poke they were sold in Iraq, no one but the 27 percenters are anxious for a PNAC war with Iran.
That’s why the neocon/chickenhawk crowd is getting so shrill.
Commenting at Balloon Juice Since 1937
I would guess that most Americans don’t give a shit about our Israeli relations. The more Bibi appears to intervene in our politics or play the attention whore, the less they’ll care about anything he says.
Downpuppy
Can Netanyahu really be stupid enough to not know what happens when you push the US an inch too far?
Israel has gotten away with a lot over the years, but they must have a clue.
srv
Why hasn’t any wingnut witten a bill to make Israel the 51st state?
This would solve so many problems!
Culture of Truth
He’s losing everyone. Lindsay Graham, McCain, Lieberman, McConnell, none of them stand with Romney.
Cacti
@Commenting at Balloon Juice Since 1937:
I’d venture that it would have quite the opposite of the intended effect. If there’s one thing that Americans don’t cotton to, it’s the idea of a furriner trying to boss them around.
beltane
@Villago Delenda Est: But Rubin, Geller, and all the rest of them really, really want to be considered white people in good standing. That’s why they try to stir up hatred against those who are browner than them while simultaneously spreading their legs for any neo-Nazi who will give them the time of day in the hopes their whoring efforts will turn them into honorary Aryans.
Culture of Truth
@srv: it would unbalance the flag.
But it would like cute with a little blue star in the corner.
The Moar You Know
@JGabriel: I don’t either.
I find the attitude here troubling. I was old enough to watch this same exact shit torpedo Carter. The right wing was small and disorganized back then, and had no media outlets of their own. That all has changed.
I trust Obama is taking this a lot more seriously than the commentariat here is. Attacks on an embassy are very serious violations of international law and tradition. That the one in Egypt was done with the consent of the Egyptian government is terrifying. I’d rather we not stick around to see what’s next.
Culture of Truth
One of the men behind the anti-Muslim film being blamed for the death of the US ambassador to Libya has claimed: ‘It is not our fault, we told the truth’.
Steve Klein said that he did not feel guilty for the murder of John Christopher Stevens and that the mob who carried it out were to blame as they were following Mohammed’s violent teachings.
Speaking to MailOnline, Klein said that the film was designed to stop the Muslim population in America reaching 10 per cent as they would then ‘work together and attack their host country’.
Culture of Truth
But when it premiered in a cinema in Los Angeles three months ago, he thought it was a ‘failure’.
In the end nobody showed up to see the premiere. I called Sam right away and he sank into a depression.
‘I told him nobody was there and he said: ‘Really?’ He was really upset. It seemed to fizzle out until a few days ago.’
Balconesfault
Maybe Chuck Schumer will come out strongly against Israel meddling?
lol – I kill myself sometimes!
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@schrodinger’s cat:
This (quoted in full for truth).
I just don’t see your average American siding emotionally with the Sputtering MBA on this one.
beltane
@Culture of Truth:
Dear Lord, you know who else used language exactly like that?
karen marie
@Chyron HR: Except when Romney is flapping his gums about it.
You mean, like here?
beltane
Oh noez, Mitt’s lost Peggy Noonan:
Brachiator
Not only an oversimplification, but probably also wrong.
Part of the news this morning involves speculation over how butthurt Bibi might be over Obama’s apparent refusal to meet him when the Israeli leader comes to New York. A background story to this mentions that on an earlier visit, Obama went to have dinner with Michelle and his daughters and left aides to deal with Bibi.
Netanyahu has been unable to pressure Obama to support his crazier desires, and so he gets angry, acts out and runs to the GOP, and makes increasingly hysterical appeals to American Jews.
Meanwhile, Obama calmly reiterates US support for Israel while brushing off Bibi’s attempts to stir up trouble.
@beltane:
Palestinians and Jews are largely the same people. These “browner than thou” fantasies are more the illusion of some Balloon Juicers than anything resembling reality.
And while some Israelis might be willing to do business with right wing fools, even neo-Nazis, they are never going to put themselves in a position of ever being beholden to them for anything. You can see this in the sordid past, when Israel was willing to do business with South Africa’s apartheid regime.
catclub
@Cacti: Well, Israel has had a pretty good run making the American people think that the furriner is Obama and they(Israel) have the weight of _real_ US policy behind them.
“If there’s one thing that Americans don’t cotton to, it’s the idea of a furriner trying to boss them around.”
Balconesfault
@Brachiator: Palestinians and Jews are largely the same people.
Sefartic Jews – yes.
Ashkanazi Jews – no.
Balconesfault
@Brachiator: Palestinians and Jews are largely the same people.
Sefartic Jews – yes.
Ashkanazi Jews – no.
Balconesfault
@Brachiator: Palestinians and Jews are largely the same people.
Sefartic Jews – yes.
Ashkanazi Jews – no.
Balconesfault
@Brachiator: Palestinians and Jews are largely the same people.
Sefartic Jews – yes.
Ashkanazi Jews – no.
shortstop
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: Why would you think that Israeli voters are ignorant of that fact? Those backing Bibi see it as a necessary collaboration: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
shortstop
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: Why would you think that Israeli voters are ignorant of that fact? Those backing Bibi see it as a necessary collaboration: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Carl Nyberg
@kindness:
Show me the Reformed Congregations standing up to Israel.
My experience with liberal Democratic Jews is that many (not all, but many) have a kneejerk reaction is to defend Israel even when they agree with the criticism.
Chris Hedges sneers are the liberal Jews who think they’ve done enough by feeling bad about what Israel does.
Feeling bad has to be matched by taking action.
Balconesfault
OK – that’s not good. Sorry.
Carl Nyberg
@kindness:
Show me the Reformed Congregations standing up to Israel.
My experience with liberal Democratic Jews is that many (not all, but many) have a kneejerk reaction is to defend Israel even when they agree with the criticism.
Chris Hedges sneers are the liberal Jews who think they’ve done enough by feeling bad about what Israel does.
Feeling bad has to be matched by taking action.
Balconesfault
OK – that’s not good. Sorry.
Culture of Truth
Though Bacile was apologetic about the U.S State Department official who was killed last night as a result of the outrage over his film, he blamed lax embassy security and the perpetrators of the violence.
‘I feel the security system (at the embassies) is no good,’ said Bacile. ‘America should do something to change it.’
Carl Nyberg
@kindness:
Show me the Reformed Congregations standing up to Israel.
My experience with liberal Democratic Jews is that many (not all, but many) have a kneejerk reaction is to defend Israel even when they agree with the criticism.
Chris Hedges sneers are the liberal Jews who think they’ve done enough by feeling bad about what Israel does.
Feeling bad has to be matched by taking action.
beltane
@Brachiator: My mother is Jewish and like many American Jews is constantly bombarded with vile, anti-Arab racist emails from Israeli “friends”. Sad to say, this hateful propaganda campaign is not some fantasy I’m making up; it seems to be some sort of informal outreach program to build support for Likud policies among otherwise liberal American Jews. Believe it or not (and I never would have believed it until a couple of years ago), there really is such a thing as Jewish supremacism and it is just as evil as all other racist movements.
Carl Nyberg
@kindness:
Show me the Reformed Congregations standing up to Israel.
My experience with liberal Democratic Jews is that many (not all, but many) have a kneejerk reaction is to defend Israel even when they agree with the criticism.
Chris Hedges sneers are the liberal Jews who think they’ve done enough by feeling bad about what Israel does.
Feeling bad has to be matched by taking action.
General Stuck
@Balconesfault:
LOL, bummer to get the WP blues first thing in the morn. It gets us all sooner or later.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@shortstop:
I do realize that Parliamentary systems are… complicated.
But I just don’t see a free people knowingly signing up for its own obliteration. Which is where Bibi’s desired path leads.
There’s a theme and a lesson here, BTW: Bibi, Romney, GWB… nothing is a greater danger to our time than a dim-witted, well-connected MBA who decides that he prefers the taste of politics.
Foregone Conclusion
I only wish that American conservatives were so sensitive of their allies’ feelings when they dragged my country into an illegal and immoral war in Iraq.
Brachiator
@beltane:
I am very much aware of this. Most American Jews just shrug this stuff off.
And yes, there are Jews who disparage Palestinians and all Arabs and Muslims in exactly the same way that white racists disparage them. Ironic, ain’t it?
And I noted that in the past the Israeli government was willing to do business with South Africa’s apartheid regime (and to complicate matters, elements of the same Israeli government also did business with anti-apartheid activists in South Africa and elsewhere).
Also, too, your mother is Jewish, but you are not?
@Balconesfault:
More complicated than that. And trying to define which Jews are more authentic is a fool’s game. But thanks for trying.
Matt McIrvin
@The Moar You Know: We can get a little too wrapped up in the game here. What happened yesterday was awful, for Egypt and Libya, for the United States and for the world. There’s no morally sound way to spin it positively. To some extent it’s probably blowback for the intervention in Libya that happened under Obama’s watch, and Obama could still screw it up badly to his own detriment.
But I think that to some extent the commenters here are trying to forestall the classic post-1980 or post-2001 narrative that any awful foreign-policy crisis is somehow automatically a Republican win, thanks to their power of tough-guy posturing. That’s clearly not true any more.
shortstop
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: Well, they’re only “signing up for their own obliteration” if they believe that a) end timers will be successful in setting Israel alight and b) unconverted Jews will indeed burn in hell, right? And that would make them a) credulous and b) not Jews.
beltane
@Brachiator: I do not practice Judaism and to identify as fully Jewish is to deny my paternal heritage which is something I refuse to do, especially as my very existence was once referred to as an “abomination” by an ultra-orthodox person I had the misfortune of engaging in conversation with. People can call me whatever they like and I can likewise self-identify any way I choose.
Bill Arnold
I have a slightly different read on this. Bibi miscalculated the likelihoods of American political outcomes, probably because he was getting bad political information from right wing American and former American jews. (Anyone who gets the chain emails and goes to jewish social gatherings where there are wingnuts knows what I’m talking about.) He’s scrambling, and maybe trying to build some support at home for a strike on Iran. And the Iranians are helping by bragging about their new (old) centrifuges. It is very easy to underestimate the complexity and sophistication of American politics at the top level. (Americans often/usually underestimate the complexity of Israeli politics.)
So Obama was just serving public notice about non-interference in American politics.
(One presumes that the Israelis were served notice about interference in American politics a few years ago.)
However, this is largely orthogonal to the question of how American can/should respond to the Iranian nuclear program. So the deep contacts and discussions, including at the top level, continue.
This is mostly speculation, but consistent.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@shortstop:
A Romney/Ryan victory, and the resulting Mideast war that would be sparked by their ambitions in Iran all but ensures Option (a).
This really isn’t the time for glibness. You’re not that cute.
Elie
@The Moar You Know:
BINGO
I hope its already in progress
shortstop
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: I assure you I never think I’m cute, but I’m flummoxed by your continuing insistence that Israelis at large are so dumb and bereft of information sources that they don’t know that American end timers are trying to use them for their own…ends. On what do you base this view other than your belief that if someone just explains it right, they’ll come around to your way of thinking?
kindness
Yow! Multiple post armageddon.
Don’t take it personally Carl that I think you are posting simplistic propaganda. Liberal, Reformed and some Conservative Jewish congregations are still good Democrats for the most part. Most of my Jewish friends & family (the good NY boy that I am I have many) are still voting for Democrats and support Obama. But they don’t make headlines. It is the nuts that make headlines and you are parroting headlines.
Person of Choler
GregB Says: “I am curious if Romney’s defense of free speech would extend to a film promoting the idea of Joseph Smith being a pedophile?
Or would he take to the airwaves denouncing it as dangerous religious bigotry?”
Hard to say. I’m pretty sure, however, that a howling mob of Mormons would not attack foreign embassies and consulates and kill the officials therein.
priscianusjr
@Shawn in ShowMe:
shortstop
@Person of Choler: Probably not, unless the diplomats tried to roll through a valley in a wagon train.
Brachiator
@beltane:
I try to call people only what they want to be called.
With the rest, I use email.
Appreciate the clarification.
Also, too, I generally have no use for the ultra-orthodox of any faith. Not much use for the ultra-nonorthodox either.
Person of Choler
@shortstop:
Probably not these days.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@shortstop:
This, (among other things).
I’m the one giving the average Israeli voter the benefit of the doubt, by assuming they are misinformed (as opposed to suicidal). The “low information voter” problem isn’t isolated to the US.
If, as you assert, I’m wrong, the voters are fully aware, and they still vote for Bibi when the time comes? Oh well… good luck to them then.
They’ll be needing it.
priscianusjr
@kindness:
priscianusjr
Netanyahu is still trying to play his stupid games with Obama while everyone else in the world, and even the majority of Israelis, realize that he’s completely out of his depth. If you are still not convinced from the links I posted above that Obama, not Netanyahu, has the leverage on Iran, here are some more:
“”We warn those who are no strangers to military solutions … that this would be harmful, literally disastrous for regional stability,” Interfax quoted [Russian] Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov as saying.
“An attack on Iran “would set off deep shocks in the security and economic spheres that would reverberate far beyond the boundaries of the Middle East region,” Ryabkov was quoted as saying.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/06/us-nuclear-iran-russia-idUSBRE88507K20120906
(12 Sept. 2012) German Defense Minister Thomas de Maiziere said the Israeli government should stop talking about attacking Iran.
“In terms of military action against Iran this action is not illegitimate, but not wise,” de Maiziere said on Tuesday at the European Israeli Dialogue conference in Berlin.
“It’s not only a question of what will happen the day after in Tel Aviv, it’s a question of what will happen elsewhere in the world.”
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/141778/germany-warns-israel-iran-strike-39-unwise-39-.html
French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Laurent Fabius, said Monday that any Israeli strike against Iran would “turn against Israel” and called for stronger sanctions to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.
“I am absolutely opposed to the idea that Iran would gain nuclear weapons, but I think if there was an Israeli attack, unfortunately it would turn against Israel and [would put] Iran as the victim,” said Fabius.
http://www.albawaba.com/news/france-warns-israel-over-iran-attack-440572
Turkish Prime-Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan characterized an Israel attack on Iran in his CNN interview.
Turkish PM Erdogan told CNN that an Israel attack on Iran would mean ‘apocalypse’ for the region, but that he would not like to believe it could actually happen.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=95063
Finally, here is an informative piece about the real Israeli public opinion on attacking Iraq. “The public’s position on this question is unequivocal: 61% think Israel should not attack Iran without U.S. cooperation.”
http://www.peaceindex.org/indexMonthEng.aspx?num=244
Mnemosyne
@shortstop:
I think you and Judas Escargot are talking at cross-purposes a bit. I suspect that the right-wing Israelis think that they’re cleverly exploiting the idiocy of the end-timers without realizing that they’re planting the seeds for their own destruction in the here and now. Not some theoretical Armageddon brought by God, but an ass-whipping from one or more of their neighbors who gets sick of their continual shit. And I’m pretty sure this is what Judas is talking about, too.
Mnemosyne
@priscianusjr:
Which makes sense as to why Bibi is trying to goad Obama into supporting an attack. I still think that, barring an incredibly stupid move on Iran’s part of doing some kind of attack on the US or US interests that can be traced back to them, the US is not going to back Israel in attacking Iran. And, frankly, Iran is not that stupid. They’re perfectly happy to stand back and watch Israel alienate the best friend they have without interfering.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Not gonna happen. Bibi is trying to get the firm backing of a hypothetical Republican president. He is also trying to go around Obama by courting Republicans, conservative Democrats, wingnuts, American Jews, probably even both Clintons, and anyone else who will listen.
He has failed to a remarkable degree.
Worse case scenario would be for Israel to simply attack Iran and drag the US into a fait accompli.
The attacks in Libya will probably inflame anti-Muislim sentiment, which Bibi might have been able to exploit. However, any dubious benefit to right wing fools about this has been seriously undermined by Romney’s unbelievably foolish attempt to smear Obama for favoring Muslims over “real Americans.”
Carl Nyberg
So if 61% of Israelis say no attack on Iran w/o U.S. support, what’s the number who embrace it with U.S. support?
kindness
@Carl Nyberg: Alright Carl. Troll yourself to death….please.
jonas
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: This Israeli right thinks of them as useful idiots — no more, no less. If American Christian kooks want to support their settlements, what the hell. Shit, in the 40’s the Stern Gang supported Hitler for fuck’s sake, just to screw with the British.
good2go
Thanks priscianusjr for reminding us provincials that there’s no AIPAC in Europe or Asia. Unlike the US (not counting people who have been to Gaza and the entire US intelligence community), many outside the US recognize Israel as the brutal apartheid disaster area it is.
It’s a very, very sad thing that the US has allowed an extremist minority in Israel to systematically destroy its chances of survival, to the detriment of the many decent Israelis who understand the Palestinians’ claims, who want justice and peace. That’s the real tragedy.
skjellyfetti
I was thinking specifically of the ‘Chinese money’ story when Romney had a fundraiser in Israel. I found it more than a bit weird that nobody in the media picked up on this.
Ellen Beth Gill
@Carl Nyberg: Actually, that is not your experience with liberal Democratic Jews and I know because I’m one of them.