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You are here: Home / Politics / Republican Stupidity / Blunt Clarity (From A Source Not Often Credited For Such In This Space)

Blunt Clarity (From A Source Not Often Credited For Such In This Space)

by Tom Levenson|  September 13, 20124:46 pm| 115 Comments

This post is in: Republican Stupidity, Blatant Liars and the Lies They Tell, Romney of the Uncanny Valley

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Via Ed Kilgore, I came across this from frequent BJ object of scorn, William Saletan.  He first makes clear exactly what it was the US Embassy in Egypt said in its tweets and other communication through the critical period leading up to and during the attack on the compound:

When you read the tweets alongside the initial statement, the message is clear. Free speech is a universal right. The Muslim-baiting movie is an abuse of that right. The embassy rejects the movie but defends free speech and condemns the invasion of its compound….

He then lines that up against Romney’s disastrous and deeply corrupt performance, stating at one point:

Romney’s description of the embassy’s initial statement—“sympathizing with those who had breached our embassy in Egypt, instead of condemning their actions”—was blatantly false…

And at another:

At a news conference Wednesday morning, Romney escalated his assault: “The administration was wrong to stand by a statement sympathizing with those who had breached our embassy in Egypt, instead of condemning their actions. It’s never too early for the United States government to condemn attacks on Americans and to defend our values.”

Until, the ground prepared, Saletan offers this blunt exegesis of that sorry text:

At his press conference, Romney accused Obama of “having that embassy reiterate a statement effectively apologizing for the right of free speech.” Romney claimed that the embassy had said, in his paraphrase, “We stand by our comments that suggest that there’s something wrong with the right of free speech.” This, too, was a Romney lie. The embassy had declared five times in writing that free speech was a universal right.
What made Romney’s statement and press conference disturbing, however, was his repeated use of the words sympathize and apology to conflate three issues the Cairo embassy had carefully separated: bigotry, free speech, and violence. The embassy had stipulated that expressions of bigotry, while wrong, were protected by freedom of speech and didn’t warrant retaliatory violence. Romney, by accusing the embassy of “sympathizing with those who had breached” the compound, equated moral criticism of the Mohammed movie with support for violence. In so doing, Romney embraced the illiberal Islamist mindset that led to the embassy invasion: To declare a movie offensive is to authorize its suppression….

Exactly so.  And to my mind Saletan here has expressed as well as anyone yet exactly why Romney’s statements over the last couple of days were more than just grandstanding — a case of shoot first and aim later as our President put it last night.  And it’s certainly more than the Smirk, no matter how bizarrely revealing it was to see Romney grin at the thought of having politicized (successfully, he seem to have thought) the deaths of four Americans.

What Romney’s words actually mean, Saletan says (and I agree) is something profoundly un-, even anti-American.

Which is to say that Romney’s behavior over the last couple of days disqualifies him from the job he seeks both because he’s shown he lacks the basic temperament and analytical habits to do the job, and because what instincts he does have are at war with the values of a small “l” liberal polity.

Or, as Saletan concludes:

I don’t know where you were born, Mr. Romney (just kidding!), but where I come from, there’s nothing more American than recognizing the idiocy of a man’s views and, at the same time, his right to express them. If you can’t tell the difference between those two things, the main threat to our values right now isn’t President Obama, the Egyptians, the Libyans, or our diplomats in Cairo. It’s you.

Yup.  Go read the whole thing. (Or at least that rump I haven’t already lifted…;)

Image: Circle of Rembrandt, Bust of a laughing young man, c. 1629-1630

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Reader Interactions

115Comments

  1. 1.

    Joel

    September 13, 2012 at 4:51 pm

    I see that the 27% are circling their wagons.

    Also, Clive Crook has jumped to the forefront with some fancy footwork and false equivalence today. Probably trying to increase his exposure and get hired away from the Atlantic.

  2. 2.

    LanceThruster

    September 13, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Good to hear that Mittens is a free speech absolutist. It’s open season on Joesph Myth (fraud, charlatan, womanizer, etc., etc.)!

  3. 3.

    kindness

    September 13, 2012 at 4:53 pm

    Romney thought he’s be showing the world he was swinging some heavy pipe between those thighs. We all saw turtle factor.

    Who knew foreign policy waters were so cold?

  4. 4.

    trollhattan

    September 13, 2012 at 4:55 pm

    Mark–that haz left one. Willard does indeed have that most treasured of all Republican characteristics: the complete lack of self-awareness.

    “I think, therefore…awww, who am I kidding?”

    Also, too, did not know Rembrandt and Michael J. Pollard had ever met.

  5. 5.

    General Stuck

    September 13, 2012 at 4:56 pm

    When you think about it, it must be humiliating at some level to be losing to a black guy named Hussein. Maybe he and McCain can sign up with the Ringling Brothers and barnstorm the country putting on shows of The Great White Hopeless.

  6. 6.

    elmo

    September 13, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Embassy: We condemn bigotry.
    Romney: How dare you condemn American values?

  7. 7.

    shoutingattherain

    September 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    Romney feels that US gov’t policy is officially announced in a Tweet. Good to know.

  8. 8.

    MikeJ

    September 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    More polling:

    Americans believe Obama would win in a fistfight with Romney, 58% to 22%.

    http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/09/13/another_poll_gives_obama_the_lead_nationally.html

  9. 9.

    Yutsano

    September 13, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    That picture is disturbing…
    @kindness:
    Willard is reacting, not acting. It’s a huge tell into his temperament.

  10. 10.

    Tom Levenson

    September 13, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    @Yutsano:

    That picture is disturbing…

    I should bloody well hope so.

  11. 11.

    The Bearded Blogger

    September 13, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    @elmo: Awesome!

  12. 12.

    kindness

    September 13, 2012 at 5:01 pm

    @Yutsano: I’m sorry. But the truth is he goes out of his way to show his machismo and it’s all a facade. That is what non-political junkies see and we need to keep showing this to them.

  13. 13.

    LanceThruster

    September 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    @General Stuck:

    This seems to pretty much apply to them both.

    Homer: [melancholy] My campaign is a disaster, Moe. [angry] I hate the public so much! [melancholy] If only they’d elect me. [angry] I’d make ’em pay! [melancholy] Aw, Moe, how do I make ’em like me?

  14. 14.

    ? Martin

    September 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    @MikeJ: Wow, Mitt is so weak, he couldn’t even hold the 27% line.

  15. 15.

    peach flavored shampoo

    September 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm

    @MikeJ: Yeah, but is that in the vein of “Obama is tougher, period”, or in the vein of “Obama would also more likely buy a T-bone steak on food stamps, drive a Caddy on pimped rims, and eat collard greens”?

  16. 16.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    September 13, 2012 at 5:04 pm

    It is going to be very interesting to watch whether this marks a permanent break between the Village and Romney, or whether the brave and stalwart defenders of false equivalence (False equivalence is the opiate of the presses) will rally their troops and close ranks after a brief period of disarray and demoralization.

    The reason I says this is that clearly many Villagers instictively found Romney’s remarks shocking and offensive, not just because of the foulness and stupidity of what he said and when he said it (or to adapt a phrase from the Watergate era, what he didn’t know and when he didn’t know it), but more importantly because he is breaking their unwritten rules of decorum regarding just how far and just when foreign policy incidents are to be politicized.

    They know that Romney has transgressed. That much has been clear from most of the Villager commentary in the first 24-48 hours. Which means that if down the road they close ranks and return to their old habits of false equivalence then it will be the result of a conscious choice, a Faustian bargain, rather than merely the reiteration of old and largely unconscious habits of mind. It seems like they are tempted to go that route but are not yet comfortable with the idea. The herd of media cattle are still milling about restlessly, not sure which direction they want to head in, until somebody leads them in one direction or the other.

  17. 17.

    joes527

    September 13, 2012 at 5:05 pm

    The print media seem to be raking him over the coals.

    But NPR at least during yesterday’s drive time was framing it as “both sides played politics”

  18. 18.

    japa21

    September 13, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    It has occured to me that Romney has definitely inspired some of the additional demonstrating. From their (the demonstrators POV) he is basically defending the movie which would only increase their anger.

  19. 19.

    Culture of Truth

    September 13, 2012 at 5:09 pm

    I have mulling the same thing. Romney’s initial mindless response did not just suffer from bad timing, or tasteless blaming of beseiged embassy personnel (though there is that) it was a bizarre conflation of diplomatic language with outright support for violent actions, directed against those same people, suggesting that, when you are a visitor in someone ele’s home, expressing polite admiration or their home decor is an invitation to be beaten senseless and robbed.

    No wonder he is so rude to people; basic human interaction is completely alien to him, it is in fact, a sign of weakness.

  20. 20.

    srv

    September 13, 2012 at 5:11 pm

    Muslim Brotherhood Million Man March, Tahrir Square, Friday. They’re already showing up.

    (US Embassy is a few blocks away)

  21. 21.

    Culture of Truth

    September 13, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    WaPo OpEd:

    Please Kill ‘Fox & Friends’

    even by the low standards of informed opinion on cable television, on the Internet and in printed matter, “Fox & Friends” occupies a special wacko cubbyhole. It’s not so much commentary as blind bomb-throwing, morning after morning after morning.

  22. 22.

    eric

    September 13, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    in some sense all of this misses a key point: had Mitt not been an ass, this could have been a much bigger land mine for Obama; instead, it is Romney playing defense in response to a murderous terrorist attack on Obama’s watch. Now, that is what they are trying to turn it into, but the initial reaction already turned the MSM off from a full frontal assault against Obama. Thanks Mitt.

  23. 23.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    This is bullshit:

    The Muslim-baiting movie is an abuse of that right.

    So now poor production values and bad acting are an “abuse” of free speech? Deeply stupid.

    Saying things that make other people uncomfortable, whether true or not or somewhere in between, is not an “abuse” of free speech, it’s a use of it and perfectly acceptable.

    It is up to those who disagree to use their right of free speech to counter; not riot and kill. Jeez.

  24. 24.

    Bulworth

    September 13, 2012 at 5:12 pm

    Well it was just bizarre for Romneybot to attack an American embassy at all, much less one under seige. Regardless of the particulars of the embassy’s statement in this case. And there wasn’t anything wrong with the embassy’s statement.

  25. 25.

    Dork

    September 13, 2012 at 5:13 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: As it’s been said a million times, a horse race = $eriou$ ad money. I’m quite certain the higher ups are strongly pushing for the false equivalency, lest they lose their bonus. Not completely sure if it’s fair to trash the journalists themselves, given how much non-freedom to write the truth they’re probably allowed.

  26. 26.

    Culture of Truth

    September 13, 2012 at 5:16 pm

    It is up to those who disagree to use their right of free speech to counter; not riot and kill. Jeez.

    That is true, I made that point here yesterday; nevertheless, it would take some considerable brass to tweet that from inside an embassy surrounded by millions of people who might be on the verge of both rioting and killing, n’est pas?

  27. 27.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    OMG. Someone actually put the tweets up in context! And didn’t confuse the initial statement with the tweets that were made in response to events. For two days now it’s like I’ve been reading half a conversation and had no idea who the embassy was speaking to. It turns out to be Americans.

    So seeing as the idea that the Embassy apologized was already well established as the events were taking place (it’s clear that multiple people had heard that an apology had been issued). So who started the rumor that an apology had been issued? It seemed to be fairly entrenched by the time Romney issued his statement. I wasn’t following the news that day.

  28. 28.

    Rita R.

    September 13, 2012 at 5:17 pm

    @LanceThruster:

    This. How does a man who’s part of a religion that’s a target of its own share of mockery and attacks condemn a statement that says trying to offend and ridicule the religious beliefs of others is wrong?? It mind-boggling.

    I’ve also been wondering how the people in the State Department must be feeling about the (horrific) possibility of having to work for a President Mitt Romney. This is a man who slammed the staffers in the embassy who put out a freaking tweet that is totally consistent with the American values of freedom of speech and freedom of religion in an effort to calm down the crowds. Even after the embassy came under attack — and is still under threat with ongoing protests — Romney continues to attack these brave people working for our nation in one of the more dangerous parts of the world as un-American and sympathizing with the people who attacked them. How is Romney fit to lead these people as president?

  29. 29.

    eric

    September 13, 2012 at 5:18 pm

    @Spatula: no, it was an abuse because it was designed to incite violence from terrorist actors.

  30. 30.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    September 13, 2012 at 5:19 pm

    @Dork:
    __
    My underlying point was that in our seemingly eternal debates over our mendacious press: stupid or evil, which one are they? one of the arguments in favor of stupid has been that they weren’t fully conscious of what they were doing, that some of it boils down to old habits and ingrained culture. But if after staring into the abyss and clearly not liking what they see (and doing so publically in a way that everybody can see their initial, instinctive reactions), then if they choose to go back to the abyss, well as I far as I’m concerned the debate is over and evil has won out over stupid.

  31. 31.

    SatanicPanic

    September 13, 2012 at 5:20 pm

    @shoutingattherain:

    Romney feels that US gov’t policy is officially announced in a Tweet. Good to know

    Good thing Twitter wasn’t around in 2003. Bush: WE R BOMBING UR CNTRY IN 24 HRS SADDAM #WAR

  32. 32.

    Rita R.

    September 13, 2012 at 5:21 pm

    @japa21:

    Absolutely! I’ve thought that too. Another reason he’s not fit for the presidency, if he can’t realize these games he plays with the truth (i.e. the lies he’s based his campaign on) have much more far-reaching consequences when you’re dealing with foreign policy.

  33. 33.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    @srv: Well since they are the political party in charge now, let’s see how they govern. If they incite a riot against an embassy, they will probably not be in power long. Not everything is 1979.

  34. 34.

    Mike G

    September 13, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    RMoney couldn’t wait to exploit the murder of four American foreign service staff to promote his primary advertising meme, “no apologies” arrogance.
    Then he smirked as he walked offstage, like he’d just earned a cookie. Tasteless, low-class and Republican-level arrogant and stupid. Rmoney puts his campaign, like his money, before his country.

  35. 35.

    The Other Chuck

    September 13, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    I never really believed in a soul, until I saw Mitt Romney, and thus what a man looks and acts like when he lacks one.

  36. 36.

    The Dangerman

    September 13, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    @LanceThruster:

    Good to hear that Mittens is a free speech absolutist.

    Iran/Ahmadinejad should be thrilled that their hate speech is now fully endorsed. Thanks Mitt!

  37. 37.

    Culture of Truth

    September 13, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    @dickcheney OK MAY HAVE JUST SHOT A GUY

    @dickcheney YEP DEF SHOT @dickwhitt N FACE

    @dickcheney OK BAK TO TO DINNER L8TR PEEPS

  38. 38.

    Davis X. Machina

    September 13, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @SatanicPanic: I think the 140 character limit could have made Twitter Bush’s true metier…

  39. 39.

    The Dangerman

    September 13, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    @Spatula:

    Saying things that make other people uncomfortable, whether true or not or somewhere in between, is not an “abuse” of free speech, it’s a use of it and perfectly acceptable.

    Ahmadinejad wants to call and thank you.

  40. 40.

    Chris

    September 13, 2012 at 5:30 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    Sorry to OT (I agree btw), but a question – where does the term “village” to refer to the media come from?

  41. 41.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    @Spatula:

    It is up to those who disagree to use their right of free speech to counter; not riot and kill. Jeez.

    Of course, the only killing that occurred here was when an Islamist militia used the protest in Libya as cover to storm the consulate in a pre-planned operation to assassinate the US ambassador.

    Oh, wait, that’s right — unless we buy into your nutty theory that the US government deliberately crashed a Blackhawk helicopter in an suburban area of Pakistan to fake the killing of Bin Laden, we’re not allowed to point out that, yes, Virginia, sometimes people have plans they carry out. In your world, we’re not allowed to talk about drug rings selling illegal narcotics unless we also accept that the Queen of England is the mastermind giving all of those drug dealers their orders.

  42. 42.

    Carl Nyberg

    September 13, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    New Mitt Romney statement:

    My campaign advisers and me worked on the statement to respond to the attack that killed Ambassador Chris Stevens. In the middle of a political campaign, sometimes one loses perspective.

    I lost perspective when used that event to attack President Obama. President Obama accused me of shooting first and aiming later. It’s humbling to admit, but President Obama is correct.

    I take responsibility in getting it wrong. And I hope to learn something from the experience. One of the things I’ve learned is that politics and diplomacy are different from business. In business, a CEO can make decisions and take actions and if others in the organization disagree, they have limited options and the CEO’s decision is probably going to stand.

    In politics, government and diplomacy, there needs to be more consideration for how others feel and how they react to what a leader or public official says.

    I picked the people on my team. The decision to make the statement and how the statement is made that was mine. One of the things I am going to do is to add advisers to my team. I realize that I have a core group of people who see things the way I do. The United States is a large and great nation and I need to get counsel from more diverse quarters.

    President Obama and I have different views of U.S. foreign policy. I look forward to explaining the difference on the campaign trail. But today I want to emphasize that on this matter of the attacks in Benghazi, I got it wrong and President Obama got it right. I am taking this as a learning experience. And I will add to my group of advisers so I can get more diverse perspectives on both foreign policy and domestic policy.

  43. 43.

    Gindy53

    September 13, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    @LanceThruster: Weird thing is, that movie could easily have been made about Joseph Smith instead of the dubbed in Mohammed.

  44. 44.

    D. Mason

    September 13, 2012 at 5:32 pm

    This is a great breakdown of the events. Thanks for posting it.

  45. 45.

    penpen

    September 13, 2012 at 5:33 pm

    When I hear “abuse of free speech” I don’t hear “illegal” or “unconstitutional,” I hear “morally reprehensible.” Like racist speech for example.

  46. 46.

    burnspbesq

    September 13, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    Saletan wrote that?

    I may have to modulate my disdain.

  47. 47.

    srv

    September 13, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    @Suffern ACE: The MB won. They aren’t ever going anywhere now.

    An Embassy would be a small loss to end neo-Wilsonianism. Took a few hundred thousand lives to end the neocon dream in Iraq.

  48. 48.

    maya

    September 13, 2012 at 5:35 pm

    @Spatula:

    Saying things that make other people uncomfortable, whether true or not or somewhere in between, is not an “abuse” of free speech, it’s a use of it and perfectly acceptable.

    Yup. Like ABC news has revealed the name, address and license plate number of, Nakoula Nakoula, the producer of the flick in a news report is also free speech. The guy is shitting his pants. Beginning to get the hang of this free speech thingy.

  49. 49.

    Carl Nyberg

    September 13, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    Something tells me admitting mistakes doesn’t come easy for Romney.

  50. 50.

    Mary G

    September 13, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    If you’d shown me that column and asked me who wrote it, William Saletan would have been way, way down my list of guesses. Good for him.

  51. 51.

    Dennis SGMM

    September 13, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    @Mnemosyne:
    Spatula is an it that stinks. Don’t feed it.

  52. 52.

    kindness

    September 13, 2012 at 5:37 pm

    @joes527: I used to be an avid NPR drive time listener. Now it seems I hit the half hour mark & have to switch to my ipod. I refuse to give them money now. Let their little republican daddies pay them.

  53. 53.

    Maude

    September 13, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Romney is looking more like Caligula every day.
    He’s already got a pro counsel.
    There is something so filthy about what Romney has done. He has undermined the safety of Americans in service to this country.
    He is stupid.

  54. 54.

    TG Chicago

    September 13, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Image: Circle of Rembrandt, Bust of a laughing young man, c. 1629-1630

    Are you sure that’s not SCTV’s Dave Thomas?

    http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57886/muppet/images/3/33/Samsleaze.jpg

    Spitting image.

  55. 55.

    Amir Khalid

    September 13, 2012 at 5:39 pm

    I guess Mitt’s overarching principle is that WHATEVER OBAMA SAYS/DOES IS ALWAYS WRONG. So if Obama, or in this instance the US embassy in Tripoli, issues a statement, that statement must be wrong; even if Mitt isn’t quite sure what was said or who said it, even if he must pull a supporting argument out of his, er, hat. Just like our friend the kitchen tool’s overarching principle is that THE CONSENSUS OF BALLOON JUICE COMMENTERS IS ALWAYS WRONG; even if he must resort to defending child rape or, as here, the deliberate inflammation of religious sensitivities under the color of “free expression”. Mitt and Kitchen Tool have something in common: both are nihilistic contrarians.

  56. 56.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    @eric:

    no, it was an abuse because it was designed to incite violence from terrorist actors.

    You know this is for sure a fact?

    Even if so, this is where speech becomes the hostage of psycho fringe types. Fuck psycho fringe types.

  57. 57.

    Roger Moore

    September 13, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    @Rita R.:

    How does a man who’s part of a religion that’s a target of its own share of mockery and attacks condemn a statement that says trying to offend and ridicule the religious beliefs of others is wrong??

    He lacks empathy. Since his religion isn’t being attacked right now, he couldn’t give a fuck about protecting other people’s right to practice their different religion. People like Mitt lack any concept of abstract principles; they care only about what helps them and theirs right now.

  58. 58.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    September 13, 2012 at 5:41 pm

    @Chris:
    I believe the term comes from Digby originally. Look in the BJ lexicon, under the letter V.

  59. 59.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    September 13, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    @Spatula: So you would have no trouble if someone standing next to you said to someone else “Spatula here raped your daughter last week.”

  60. 60.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 5:42 pm

    @maya:

    You’ve always been a closet authoritarian, Maya.

    Personally, I think ABC now makes themselves part of the story, and not sure why they’d do that…I’m sure it pleases you though.

  61. 61.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    @Carl Nyberg: WHAT???? No way.

  62. 62.

    SatanicPanic

    September 13, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    @Carl Nyberg: No way, that can’t be real

  63. 63.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 5:46 pm

    @Spatula: Hmmphf. I agree there. Being that passions in Egypt were sparked by a religious TV broadcaster who decided to call attention to an otherwise obscure video, ABC isn’t really that much different. Ratings! Damn the consequences!

  64. 64.

    Carl Nyberg

    September 13, 2012 at 5:47 pm

    Romney is better off drafting a statement of contrition and getting it over than to let it wait until the presidential debates and allowing himself to get asked about it and have to speak off-the-cuff.

    Romney waiting until the presidential debate to address this will end badly for him.

  65. 65.

    Joel

    September 13, 2012 at 5:51 pm

    @joes527: NPR is useful only as the broadcast end of CPB-funded programs: This American Life, Radiolab, etc… As a news organ? Not especially useful to me.

  66. 66.

    danimal

    September 13, 2012 at 5:53 pm

    America, do you stand with Mitt Romney and the Muslim extremists in opposition to President Obama, or do you stand with President Obama and the embattled workers in our diplomatic service in Cairo and Benghazi, representing American ideals and the American way of life?

    /ifObamawaslikeBushRomney

  67. 67.

    Yutsano

    September 13, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    @Carl Nyberg: The wingnuts are gonna crucify him for that blatant display of weakness. Never apologize Willard. That’s Wingnut 101.

  68. 68.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 13, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    @joes527:

    ABC and CBS were being blatant in that. Obama’s response to all this “you don’t fire then aim” was called a “political attack” on the poor, defenseless Mittens.

  69. 69.

    maya

    September 13, 2012 at 5:55 pm

    @Spatula: What I’m saying , from inside my closet, is that Nakoula is getting a reverse dose of the consequence of “free speech”. And he doesn’t like it.

    You free speech champions always seem to be missing a key ingredient from your dogmatic formula.

  70. 70.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 5:57 pm

    Juan Cole linked to a Reuters article that has a really good rundown by a local reporter of what happened in Benghazi on Tuesday night:

    In Libya, deadly fury took US envoys by surprise

    The original protesters probably had no idea that Stevens was even there, but it sure sounds like someone did, because the safe house that the envoys were taken to was shelled by mortar fire.

    (Also, too, for the people running around denouncing the “savages,” Stevens was separated from the rest of the staff and was inadvertently left behind when everyone else was evacuated. It was some of the local “savages” who found him and took him to the hospital where doctors spent 45 minutes trying to revive him before having to give up. The doctor didn’t even realize who he was treating until someone mentioned that the patient had come from the consulate and then he recognized Stevens, who is well-known in Benghazi.)

  71. 71.

    LanceThruster

    September 13, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    @Chris:

    Could it be an offshoot from the concept “It takes a village [to raised a child]”?

    The media “village” raises us like veal.

  72. 72.

    gogol's wife

    September 13, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    @The Other Chuck:

    Spot on. (Although I’ve always believed in a soul.)

  73. 73.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    Also, Dr. Cole’s post from today is terrific:

    Romney Jumps the Shark

  74. 74.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 13, 2012 at 5:59 pm

    @Carl Nyberg:

    Sorry, but I call shenanigans on that one. There’s no way that a non-self-aware sack of vile shit like Dubya Mittens Rmoney issued that statement.

  75. 75.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 6:03 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Did they say “poor defenseless” or are you adding that. Yes, the aim-fire thing was political. It was aimed at an adversary. However, since Obama wasn’t actually bragging about solving the crisis (because it isn’t over yet) its fair. Yes, both sides have politicized Romney’s statements.

    Since Romney’s statements were indeed poltical, it makes sense that they would be responded to in kind. What matters is that when Obama and Clinton gave the speeches the following morning, the fact that Obama was up for reelection wasn’t mentioned. That’s the presidential role and I’m glad he didn’t try to take advantage of that situation.

    What he says in interviews later in the day – attack away.

  76. 76.

    Mandalay

    September 13, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    @Spatula:

    Saying things that make other people uncomfortable, whether true or not or somewhere in between, is not an “abuse” of free speech, it’s a use of it and perfectly acceptable.

    Some European countries make it a crime to deny the Holocaust and other forms of genocide? Are they wrong? Is denying the Holocaust “perfectly acceptable”?

    IANAL, but aren’t some forms of speech, which directly result in bad outcomes, completely unacceptable?

  77. 77.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 13, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    @Suffern ACE:

    OK, I added the “poor defenseless”.

    But it was part of the “both sides do it” narrative which is the hallmark of the Village. Obama’s comments were delivered in moderate tones, with no embellishment. Furthermore, they were based on accurate reports of what Mitt Romney said. Not on the fantasies of wingtard morons.

    Obama’s observation was absolutely on target, Dead center. Rmoney ran off his fucking mouth without the slightest regard for the facts.

  78. 78.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    September 13, 2012 at 6:12 pm

    @maya:

    You free speech champions always seem to be missing a key ingredient from your dogmatic formula.

    __
    Freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. We have the freedom to say whatever we want, but with that comes the moral (and in some cases legal) responsibility for the predictable consequence of what we say. Some people want to have all the freedom in the world for themselves but not to have to take any responsibility. When they are too young to understand the idea that these two concepts are inextricably bound together we call them “children” and try to keep them from harming themselves or others. Unfortunately there are also plenty of grown adults who act like children.

  79. 79.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    @maya:

    What I’m saying , from inside my closet, is that Nakoula is getting a reverse dose of the consequence of “free speech”. And he doesn’t like it.

    Maya, I would argue that the murders of American diplomatic people were much more the CONSEQUENCE of illegal violence by criminally insane, religious/political fanatics than of free speech.

    To say otherwise, again, makes us all the hostages of the most insanely violent among us.

  80. 80.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 6:16 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Hey, just because they’re poltical attacks doesn’t mean they’re dishonest. Sometimes they happen to be true.

  81. 81.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 13, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    @Suffern ACE:

    Yeah, but “both sides do it” implies that Obama is as much a pathological liar as Rmoney is.

    The two sets of statements demonstrate how false the equivalency is.

  82. 82.

    wrb

    September 13, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    @joes527:

    NPR has been utterly pathetic

  83. 83.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    @Mandalay:

    Some European countries make it a crime to deny the Holocaust and other forms of genocide? Are they wrong? Is denying the Holocaust “perfectly acceptable”?

    In my opinion, yes, holocaust denial laws are bullshit. Why those countries don’t have faith in the historical record to counter such claims is beyond me. The laws only feed the idea that there is something to hide.

    As for your other question, of course…we all know of the “yelling fire in a crowded theatre” concept. You’ll have to work hard to claim that making a cheesy, direct to video film on the other side of the world from those claiming hurt fee fees is equivalent.

    Now…if there’s a larger story behind all this, who knows what may yet be exposed? But it is BJ CW that there are NO conspiracies, now or ever in the history of the world, so we know that additional knowledge won’t change what we already KNOW to be true. :P

  84. 84.

    Chyron HR

    September 13, 2012 at 6:23 pm

    @Spatula:

    That’s funny, because most of us would argue that the murder of Trayvon Martin by your hero George Zimmerman was the CONSEQUENCE of illegal violence, etc.

    But you seem to disagree. Go figure!

  85. 85.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 6:25 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    Left Turn: Is it your position then that it is the moral responsibility of every person in the world to never criticize Islam in any way, shape, or form because violent Islamists will lash out?

    No statements, art, movies, sculpture, jokes, nothing that in any way offends Muslims is permissible?

  86. 86.

    bemused

    September 13, 2012 at 6:27 pm

    Romney is a disaster candidate. He probably thought he could add to his resume for prez when he fought for and initiated RomneyCare. It didn’t turn out to be an asset for him. He read those tea leaves wrong. Now he still has to run hard right. Mike Papantonio said on the radio today that the Tea Party funded by big money has pulled a hostile takeover of the Republican Party. That includes Romney and his hopes to be president. I wonder how Romney feels now that the shoe is on the other foot.

  87. 87.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 6:28 pm

    @Chyron HR:

    Oh…were we discussing Trayvon? I had missed that element in the thread. Was Zimmerman responding to some free speech from Martin? I hadn’t heard that. Tell me more.

    It’s extremely important to you to be one of “most of us,” isn’t it, Chyron?

  88. 88.

    Gwiwer

    September 13, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    I’m amazed at what an awful person Romney has proven himself to be. I knew he was kind of creepy and out of touch and weird, but he’s really shown himself to be so much worse than that during the course of this campaign. What amazes me even more though is that the media, including way more conservative “journalists” than I ever thought possible, have been disturbed enough by his behavior to actually take notice and be put off by it. I’m kind of glad Republicans have elected a politician as craven and completely lacking in empathy as Romney is if for no other reason than because it’s forcing the media to finally take notice of just how insane the Republican party has become.

    I can’t believe just a few short months ago the thought of a Romney candidacy actually terrified me because I really thought he was the Republicans’ only hope for electing a candidate capable of breezing through the campaign while maintaining a fake air of inoffensiveness and moderation. It really should have been a relatively easy election for him to win. All he had to do was seem presidential and avoid specific policy discussion long enough to convince the voters he was safe and worthy of having a shot at being president for a while. I could have never guessed just how disastrous a candidate he would turn out to be. He’s making the McCain campaign seem brilliant in comparison. I imagine McCain wakes up every morning thinking, “GAH! Why didn’t I let him run in 2008? 2012 would have totally been mine…”

  89. 89.

    Amir Khalid

    September 13, 2012 at 6:31 pm

    @Carl Nyberg:
    I did a search for news on Mitt, and there’s no mention of such a statement from him. It’s very very implausible that Mitt would willingly eat so large a helping of crow, however much we all think he should. He’s not ever going to admit to being full of shit on anything.

  90. 90.

    West of the Cascades

    September 13, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    @Carl Nyberg:

    Romney is better off drafting a statement of contrition and getting it over than to let it wait until the presidential debates and allowing himself to get asked about it and have to speak off-the-cuff.

    Romney waiting until the presidential debate to address this will end badly for him.

    President Obama will destroy him with this in the foreign policy debate. For a man of cool temperment and seemingly endless patience, I would bet that the President has been seething the last two days at the uber-mendacity of Romney’s reaction and how it probably complicates efforts to react to the situations in Libya, Cairo, and Yemen.

    I don’t believe that it is wrong to criticize a President for conduct of foreign policy, even in time of crisis … but (a) it’s better if the criticism is informed (so maybe wait a few hours or days to understand what really is happening) and (b) it’s essential that the criticism be true.

    Romney failed on both counts. And President Obama will light him up like a candle with righteous anger and furious vengeance in the debate if Romney hasn’t (to steal a term) apologized for his ill-timed, ill-conceived remarks before then.

  91. 91.

    MCA1

    September 13, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    @Culture of Truth: Love that! I hate Twitter as a general matter and have never considered participating on it, but “Tweets from History” would be pretty hilarious. Endless material.

    @GKhan – in your town, raping and pillaging – chk us on #MongolHordeHighlights.

    @GKhan – terrifying you ALL DAY AGAIN. Tired. Bow down, Ctrl Asia!! Im in ur house, eatin’ ur gruel!

  92. 92.

    Amir Khalid

    September 13, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    @Gwiwer:
    Mitt’s didn’t get this far in 2008. So only people from Massachusetts, who know him from his term asgovernor, would be familiar with his character defects. I have to agree, he seems utterly devoid of the character and temperament required in a national leader. But the good news is, he has been completely up front with the American public, indeed with the whole world, by exposing these deficiencies on his own.

  93. 93.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 6:48 pm

    @srv:

    I dunno, you might want to talk to the people of Libya about that. Their new prime minister beat the MB’s candidate by 40 votes:

    Even so, there were many who were convinced that the run-off round was going to be a contest between Jibril and the Muslim Brotherhood’s candidate, Electricity Minister Awad Barasi. In the event, Barasi was never able to get more than the forty or so votes he actually won in round one despite two attempted deals between Jibril and the Brotherhood’s Justice and Construction Party (J&C).
    __
    The contest shows yet again the rejection of the Brotherhood. As in the July elections when the J&C won less than half the seats of Jibril’s National Forces Alliance (and even less of the popular vote), today’s vote for prime minister had it again winning less than half the votes that went to Jibril. (emphasis mine)

    But, then, as Dr. Cole was saying yesterday, in Libya the nationalists are much stronger than the Islamists, which may be why the Islamist thugs are pissed off right now.

  94. 94.

    Gex

    September 13, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    @eric: And let’s take the time to note that criticizing the work is not the same as denying the man free speech. It’s almost like you are responding to someone from the right who thinks free speech means some people can just say whatever shit they want, and everyone else needs to STFU about what they said.

    ETA: Asking someone not to say things != Forcing someone not to say them. Christ, what’s difficult about that?

  95. 95.

    Suffern ACE

    September 13, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    @Amir Khalid: It would be one of most ironic ends to a campaign ever, though, to have the republican candidate for president acting out the fantasy scene that they’ve had for the last two Democratic presidents. (“Chastened, humbled, admitting mistakes”). David Brooks would swoon. David Broder would rise from the grave so he could swoon. Ben Smith would probably drop dead…etc.

  96. 96.

    geg6

    September 13, 2012 at 6:51 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Yep. The guy “wrote” a book called “No Apologies,” right?

    I’d be astounded if that statement is real.

  97. 97.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    September 13, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    @Spatula:

    Fuck psycho fringe types.

    I agree wholeheartedly with you, go fuck yourself.

  98. 98.

    Roger Moore

    September 13, 2012 at 6:56 pm

    @MCA1:
    @GKahn What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

  99. 99.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    @Dennis SGMM:

    I just want the troll to admit he thinks the Queen of England runs the worldwide drug trade. You know he believes it, because he’s a fervent believer in every other nutty, unprovable conspiracy theory that comes down the pipe.

  100. 100.

    grandpa john

    September 13, 2012 at 7:10 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: Many things are better left unsaid, just because you have the right to say it does’t mean that it must be said.

  101. 101.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 7:13 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Well, now Memnie Puss, you’re the one who was on here last nigh spouting all sorts of unfounded KARAZEEEE conspiracie theories about this Libya/Egypt thing…what’s up with that.

    Conspiracies don’t happen, or so you’ve told us.

  102. 102.

    Villago Delenda Est

    September 13, 2012 at 7:18 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    If he admits to belief in that, well, we’ve established, without question, what he is.

    A LaRouchie.

  103. 103.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    September 13, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @Spatula:

    Is it your position then that it is the moral responsibility of every person in the world to never criticize Islam in any way, shape, or form because violent Islamists will lash out?
    __
    No statements, art, movies, sculpture, jokes, nothing that in any way offends Muslims is permissible?

    __
    No, that is not my position, and I am fine with works which are offensive, if there is some chance that they were made for some purpose other than just purely to incite a riot. The Satanic Verses is a good example. But from what we know so far about this film, how it was made and the way in which it was re-released after flopping during the summer, make it quite clear that this was agitprop and specifically intended to incite riot. It had no other plausible purpose. That is, I think, worth condemming on moral grounds.

  104. 104.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 13, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @Mnemosyne: It is a way to get fat stacks and the women has an expensive lifestyle – corgi chow ain’t free, ya know.

  105. 105.

    Spatula

    September 13, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Villago, what we CAN say with certainty right now, is that it’s been long established, without question, that you are a LaDouchie.

  106. 106.

    johnny kitchitikipi

    September 13, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    @Spatula:

    Saying things that make other people uncomfortable, whether true or not or somewhere in between, is not an “abuse” of free speech, it’s a use of it and perfectly acceptable.

    You mean like calling a black person “Ni**er ni**er ni**er!”?

    Should be perfectly acceptable, amirite?

  107. 107.

    Bob h

    September 13, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    @Yutsano:

    When does he release his health record? Isn’t that standard for someone at this stage?

  108. 108.

    lacp

    September 13, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    @Bob h: Ain’t gonna happen. He’ll just announce that he’s retroactively healthy.

  109. 109.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 8:54 pm

    @Spatula:

    Conspiracies don’t happen, or so you’ve told us.

    No, what I’ve told you is that the nutty ones you’ve cooked up in your head about the US and Pakistan agreeing to fake the death of Bin Laden and then have Pakistan pretend to be so mad, you guys didn’t happen.

    Being your usual charming self, you decided that if I didn’t believe your wacky, unproven conspiracy theories with zero evidence behind them, that must mean I don’t think anyone anywhere has ever conspired to do anything. Because, after all, your theory that the US deliberately faked the crash of a Blackhawk helicopter in suburban Pakistan was so extremely plausible that only an idiot wouldn’t buy it, amirite?

    Next up, Spatula explains how the Mars Rover landing was faked on a Hollywood soundstage using photos from Apollo 11. We don’t even have rockets!

  110. 110.

    Mnemosyne

    September 13, 2012 at 8:58 pm

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ:

    But from what we know so far about this film, how it was made and the way in which it was re-released after flopping during the summer, make it quite clear that this was agitprop and specifically intended to incite riot.

    Juan Cole had a really good point in this morning’s post — by pretending to be an Israeli who had gotten funding from American Jews, Nakoula was pretty obviously trying to get a two-fer of stirring up both anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim sentiment to get the maximum reaction.

  111. 111.

    Or something like that.Suffern Ace

    September 13, 2012 at 9:08 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Ok. It may make sense, but is it true? Why would anyone take anything he says about his identity at face value? Including that he’s a Copt? I mean he lied to the actors and dubbed in a new script, he’s got alias up the wazoo. Yeah the Copts have grievances about how they’ve been treated so it makes sense. But does anyone involved with this movie seem trustworthy?

  112. 112.

    SectarianSofa

    September 13, 2012 at 9:10 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    I think everyone is trying too hard to tease a meaning from Mitt’s words. The basic idea is that that if it might advance his campaign, he’ll say it. The impact of the lies he regularly spouts is mitigated (should be a pun in there somewhere) by the fact that advancing his campaign does not seem to be a skill he (or his team) possesses.

  113. 113.

    priscianusjr

    September 13, 2012 at 11:48 pm

    @Spatula:

    Saying things that make other people uncomfortable, whether true or not or somewhere in between, is not an “abuse” of free speech, it’s a use of it and perfectly acceptable.

    This was not just “saying things that make other people uncomfortable”, it was criminal incitement.

    “Such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to the truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality,” US Supreme Court, Chaplinsky v New Hampshire (1942).

    http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta3/tft/article.php?issue=20120907&page=8

  114. 114.

    priscianusjr

    September 13, 2012 at 11:54 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    I guess Mitt’s overarching principle is that WHATEVER OBAMA SAYS/DOES IS ALWAYS WRONG.

    Are you surprised? Hasn’t that been the guiding principle of the Republican Party these past four years?

  115. 115.

    priscianusjr

    September 14, 2012 at 12:04 am

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    So you would have no trouble if someone standing next to you said to someone else “Spatula here raped your daughter last week.”

    That sounds a lot like the question that cost Michael Dukakis the 1988 election.

    Well, I am sure that Spatula would defend to the death the right of an American citizen to accuse him of raping ANYONE’S daughter.

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