I’ve got stuff to do today so I’ll leave you with Michael Lewis’ Obama profile in Vanity Fair. Here’s how I measure how much of a puff piece it is: the second update to Glenn Greenwald’s post pointing out that it isn’t journalism has four sub-parts.
Reader Interactions
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beltane
I love the smell of win in the morning. It goes great with my coffee.
Only four sub-parts? I am not impressed. Did he forget to include a bibliography and several appendices, at least one of which contains maps?
Patricia Kayden
I know we are growing sick of polls, but here’s some good news.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-obama-ohio-florida-virginia-20120913,0,7621829.story
Soonergrunt
So, this happened yesterday-
Driving home in the rain, in my 2010 Ford Focus got T-boned by a Ford F-250 on the driver’s side. All the airbags deployed. The SYNC system started calling 911 before the car even stopped moving. I got a little banged up but I walked away from an accident that might have seriously hurt or killed me in my old car. I haven’t seen the car, except briefly, and it looked like you’d expect. I’m pretty sure it’s totaled.
I feel like one giant bruise and I have a severe wrist sprain, but when the insurance settles, I’m buying another Ford Focus or a Fusion.
Dimmic Rat
@Soonergrunt: I have never driven a Focus but I LOOOVVE my Fusion. Highly recommended.
Napoleon
I rented a Fusion on vacation and really liked that car.
Raven
@Soonergrunt: Damn bro, dodged another one! Glad to hear you are ok.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
I get rental Fusions all the time. Nice enough car but doesn’t compare to my 2010 Mazda3.
Soonergrunt
The cell phone was ejected from the car, and flew about 30 feet, but stayed connected to the SYNC by bluetooth. The phone case was jacked up, but kept the phone from getting any damage at all. It’s got tire tread on it.
Hydrocodone is a gift from the FSM.
SiubhanDuinne
@Soonergrunt: Glad you’re okay. That’s scary.
cintibud
T-boned by an F250 on the driver’s side? Glad you could walk away from that!
Linda Featheringill
@Soonergrunt:
So glad you’re okay!
mistermix
@Soonergrunt: Glad you’re OK.
Marc
@Soonergrunt:
I really like the hybrid Fusion.
Re Greenwald: Haters gonna hate.
Maude
@Soonergrunt:
I’d be shaking after that.
I don’t have a car. I ride the bus for seniors and all that. I see people driving and I am glad I don’t drive.
Take those pills ahead of the pain. Say, yes mom.
shortstop
@Soonergrunt: Glad you are fine! Airbags are wonderful, wonderful things.
Interesting about your phone. A few years back, I was in a really awful accident while riding in a taxi (I had put my belt on, something I only did about half the time in cabs then — now you better believe I never miss). The airbag saved the driver from injury, the cab was totaled, I had a deep purple Miss America sash-type bruise from my shoulder to the opposite hip for three months…and my cell phone died forever just from the impact.
Valdivia
@Soonergrunt:
I am so sorry this happened but so glad you are ok.
Cassidy
Damn. Glad you’re okay.
I’m actually looking at trading in my car. My wife is a MOPAR kind of girl, so I’m thinking I’m going to trade mine in and get her a used Challenger and I’ll take the minivan. I cart the kids around more anyway so there really isn’t any point in me having an SUV and her having a minivan.
rikyrah
Fuck Greenwald.
Insomniac
@Soonergrunt: Glad you’re okay, guy.
Rex Everything
Greenwald has nothing progressive about him, because he’s not an Angry Bank Lawyer who equivocates on Rahm vs teachers’ unions and derides Julian Assange.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Greenwald wankerific article’s subtitle:
Should read:
My diatribe about Michael Lewis’s presidential profile characteristically reveals more about my inherent douchenozzleness than it does about anything else you’ll read today.
I clicked on the link much to my regret which means that asshat got a click. Wish I could take that back.
blingee
Greenwald is a fucking idiot. Full stop!
Mack
@Cassidy: Never been a MOPAR fan, but this new CEO is doing some interesting things. I’ll be watching their new small car line-up.
Seems to be a lot of current or former journalists on this site, so, I’ll ask…
Doesn’t Greenwald’s piece smack of sour grapes?
Rex Everything
In a world of countries that make this country look like a right-wing freak zone, I, party democrat ordinaire, set out to read views to the left of my own & all I could find was a site that swooned over Joe Stalin, handsome hipster. GG sux!
Chyron HR
@Rex Everything:
Good job crusading off to a random website you’ve never visited before in order to defend Greenwald from anyone who dares to criticize him, but for bonus points you need to throw in an accusation that we, quote, “worship dear leader”, unquote.
rlrr
@Patricia Kayden:
Here’s a contest Romney can win…
Rex Everything
@Chyron HR:
Or how about I make a reference to Tunch or post-punk Broder or John Singer Sargent to go with my above refs? Since, you know, this is a site I’ve never visited before…
Mark B.
I really liked Michael Lewis’s piece. It’s a nice read, and it’s really friendly to the president, but there’s plenty of room in the world for pieces like that. It’s an extraordinary look at who the president is from someone who was given a lot of time and personal access, and to get that kind of access, you have to have some affinity to the subject. Not everything that’s written about Obama needs to attack his policy or impugn his motives … unless you’re Greenwald, then every piece of writing must pass an ideological purity test.
eemom
As I’ve mentioned before, Glennzie’s insufferable prose has become a TOTAL self-parody since he moved to the Guardian.
ABL’s friend Heather put it best: you can practically hear him trying to effectuate a British accent in his head.
The Ancient Randonneur
I remember when Greenwald wrote about The War Criminals of the Bush Era and Glenn got a lot of love in these pages. My how times have changed.
@Soonergrunt: Whoa! Praise the FSM you weren’t more seriously injured. All the best and a speedy recovery.
greennotGreen
I understand Greenwald’s point, but there’s another side to this: because journalists teh suxor at their jobs, the chance you’ll be misquoted is about 70%. Quote approval is the only way I know to prevent that. The one time I was interviewed for the paper, the reporter pretty much jumbled the one sentence he was responsible for transcribing. On the other hand, when I was reporting a story, I was told that a company was using such and such chemical on its product. I guess before we went to press, the person I interviewed found out that the chemical had been banned, so then he claimed he’d never said it. So I don’t know what the answer is. Better journalists who can actually take accurate notes?
Mark S.
@Soonergrunt:
Glad you’re all right. Sounds like that could’ve been a lot worse.
Cassidy
@Mack: You know, I just don’t like driving cars. I’ve been driving a Jeep GC since 09, a Ram before that, and while I’ve had cars, I hate being that low to the ground. At a minimum, I need a station wagon of some sort and was seriously considering an Outback before it dawned on me that I could drive the van back and forth to work.
Shawn in ShowMe
Four more years living off the poutrage welfare circuit and Greenwald will have as many houses as John McCain. Way to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
R-Jud
@Soonergrunt: Glad you’re all right, mate. You having any fun auditory hallucinations from the drugs? Opiates always make me hear things.
arguingwithsignposts
@greennotGreen:
If only there were some kind of digital apparatus that would accurately record sound and you could play it back on demand.
Captain Goto
Jeez. VERY glad you are (mostly) OK.
Xenos
Very glad to hear you are relatively OK.
Guess Nader did one or two worthwhile things in his life. Keep up the good luck!
Steve
I bet if I read Greenwald’s piece I would find multiple things to agree with, but for some reason, the mere thought of clicking the link is exhausting.
arguingwithsignposts
@Mack:
fixed
WereBear
@Soonergrunt: My god, Soonergrunt! Thank heavens you’re okay.
Makes me appreciate my own 2010 Focus all the more :)
Rest up, man.
Scott S.
Glad you got through that okay, Soonergrunt — sorry to hear about the pain and loss of the car, though…
Glenn is ultimately a simple kid. He wants to feel like the Lone Rebel Standing Up Bravely Before Oppression And Injustice, and the only way he can do that is if he hates everything every president does. He hated Bush, he hates Obama, he’d hate Romney or Howard Dean or Bernie Sanders or Ralph Nader if they got elected.
He’d probably give his beloved Ron Paul a pass, I suppose.
LAC
Am I supposed to give a rat’s ass what that chinless fuck has to say about the vanity fair piece? He and his syphocantic fanboy base can suck and blow themselves to infinity and beyond. Had enough of his shit on Salon.
Other than that , all the best at the Guardian, Glenn! ?
greennotGreen
@arguingwithsignposts: Yeah, but then the reporters would have to play it back more than once to get it right – too much work.
khead
@Soonergrunt:
Add me to the “glad you’re ok” and “love my Fusion” (non-hybrid) folks.
Raven
@Cassidy: You’d love my 66 Chevy Fleetside with a steel dash and a steering wheel column that comes right through the drivers chest in a head-on!
Mark S.
@Scott S.:
Resegregation is a small price to pay for a more isolationist foreign policy. Glenn can’t understand why progressives don’t see things his way.
WereBear
In his own way, Glenn is as much trapped by black & white thinking as any wingnut. The moment he loosens up on his rant than all parties, except the tiny ineffectual ones, suck on toast, he’s toast himself.
Robert
@Soonergrunt: Glad you’re okay.
Soonergrunt
@R-Jud: Nope. I’m pretty much OK. Just keep having visions of the blue oval from that F250 looming in my window.
You know, when you know you’re going to get hit, that damn thing looks about four feet across.
Davis X. Machina
@WereBear: Trial advocacy, in an adversary legal system, will encourage whatever native tendencies you already have towards binary thinking….
El Tiburon
Soonergrunt,
Glad you are okay. I need you in good health to see your land thieves get prison raped in October. After that, you know…
And glad to see the BJ Mob continues the unhinged hate Fest against GG. Mention Greenwald around here and the comment section turns into a Free Republic orgasmic display of who can hurl childish and unwarranted taunts. Absolutely no comments of substance – shocking not at all.
Chinn Romney
I see the Greenwald detractors are avoiding the small matter of WH veteo power over anything in the story that they don’t like. It is a concern, just because it involves your own hero doesn’t make it go away. If GWB were involved you’d all be egging him on.
It can get tiring, trying to absorb Glenn’s bleak view of the world. But he’s also often correct, and always backs up his assertions. And he’s consistent. All I’m getting from the naysayers here is that he’s not echoing their thoughts, therefore he’s no good. Pretty weak.
Soonergrunt
@Raven: When I was a surgical tech, back before airbags were mandatory, we could tell what kind of car the victim was driving because it would frequently be stamped in the chest.
“Hey, this guy was driving a Mercedes!”
Joey Maloney
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: douchenozzleness
I believe the correct adjectival form is “douchenozzleocity”.
eemom
@Davis X. Machina:
meh, you can fault my profession for a lotta things, but please don’t pin the blame for that twerp on us. For starters, he ever only practiced law for about 5 minutes before commencing his storied career as a “former Constitutional lawyer.”
amk
@Soonergrunt: Wow. Glad you’re ok.
Soonergrunt
@El Tiburon: Hey, I just attended OU. I was never much of a fan of college football. That said, Bob Stoops runs a really clean program. He fires staff for ethics infractions, yanks scholarships for misconduct, and rewards community service among his players.
Talk smack about my Broncos, however, and it’s on!
Joey Maloney
@Soonergrunt: Another on the “glad you’re ok” bench. The worst wreck I ever had was a head-on with another car. This was way back before airbags. I was belted in and I watched my eyeglasses fly off my face and shatter on the windshield. You better believe I wear a seatbelt.
Back when he was funny, P.J. O’Rourke once wrote, “the amazing thing about looking down a gun barrel is how small the hole in the end is, yet what an enormous difference it could make in your social schedule.”
WereBear
@Davis X. Machina: Good point! Training and temperament, eh?
Raven
@Soonergrunt: Oh yea! And I have that original horn ring with the bowtie in it. They make a breakaway steering column for it but it’s $$$$ and I only use it to low ride and haul compost!
amk
@Shawn in ShowMe:
me likey.
ericblair
One line in the Lewis piece quoted from an Obama staffer after pointing out that the media spin on Libya went directly from Why Isn’t Obama Doing Anything to Why Are We There in about ten seconds: “…the controversy machine is bigger than the reality machine.”
Bet Greenie didn’t like that very much.
Mandalay
@greennotGreen:
It’s only a small step in the right direction, but why can’t papers always state up front that the subject of an article was given veto power over the quotes, in the same way that financial journalists sometimes disclose any financial interest in a corporations/shares they write about?
chopper
damn, SG, that’s a hell of an accident. glad you’re okay.
Bill in Section 147
@ SG: Here is to surviving. Beats the alternative.
As to GG, I always find him interesting. Over all I like Michael Lewis’ writing too so I probably won’t complain about all of the missed opportunities for exposing the horrible.
Haven’t read either article yet but it does make me wonder if one could be head of any large nation state without being responsible for some very bad things.
Persia
@greennotGreen: Honestly, I don’t see how recording would work with a piece like the Lewis one. I don’t even know how you’d go through the hours and hours of tape to confirm the quotes.
EDIT: I mean, I guess you could, but the logistics make my head hurt.
Villago Delenda Est
@eemom:
By “British Accent” I’m sure you mean the received OxBridge version, not Cockney or Seven Dials or Cornish or…heaven help us…serious Scot…
ANNNNND….
Glad to hear you fared so well in a pretty serious situation Soonergrunt! Way to go, sarge!
Dennis SGMM
@Soonergrunt:
Good to hear that you were able to walk away from that one. Please be sure to have a doc check you over.
WereBear
Greenwald can never admit these are slippery real world problems that defy tidy solutions.
Because then GG would never get credit for solving them so easily. All hail!
Steve
@ericblair: Well, the whole frickin’ Arab Spring went from “the flowering of Bush’s Freedom Agenda” to “the culmination of Obama’s plan to empower Islamic extremists” in about two seconds, so I don’t know what else anyone would expect.
Matt McIrvin
I haven’t read the Greenwald piece, but I did read the Lewis article and, yeah, it was really fluffy.
It was also great reading, but I wouldn’t take the assertions about the Libya operation in it at face value; it’s obviously the administration line.
schrodinger's cat
@Soonergrunt: Wow that sounds scary, glad you made it out in one piece.
Persia
@Mandalay:
I think that’s pretty reasonable (it could be at the end, too, I don’t really care). 99% of the time the quotes don’t really matter that much anyway. Does anyone but Greenwald really think the WH spiked an inflammatory quote from Lewis? This was a ‘at the President’s side’ profile, not an expose of how power works at the top. Contrary to Greenwald’s assertion, I think it’s important for journalism to have both. That there isn’t always enough of the latter doesn’t mean we have to attack the former.
Also, glad you’re okay Soonergrunt.
LAC
@Chinn Romney: What worldview? Propping up Ron Paul, cutting and pasting links in place of actual journalism, endless “updates” when his narrative does not jibe with the facts, being a thin-skinned fuck who blocks out people who do not agree with him actually try to have a substantive debate with him, and mocking folks who support the President? That amazing “worldview”?
And El Tittybar? Mention GG here, and all his fanboys take time out of their Dungeons and Dragons online games to come here and lecture folks about the genius of the Boy from Ipanema. No substance there, either.
FlipYrWhig
@Bill in Section 147: Every bad thing done by a government demands an outcry, and if yours isn’t sufficiently loud and fast, you’re not just part of the problem, you might as well be all of the problem. If you’re too slow, or too quiet, or raise questions, or think that there’s a missing context, you’re on the side of pure evil, no backsies, infinity. I think that’s how it works.
jshooper
Greenwald is just pissed because Clint Eastwood stole his act of yelling at an invisible obama…Douchewald’s entire existence was played out in live 3D form for the world to see…he is the blog version of yelling at an empty chair and then claiming that all of the bullshit he projects onto obama is somehow reality…fuck him and his paultard fan club
R-Jud
@Villago Delenda Est:
The Birmingham/Black Country accent is by far the worst. “Yam ollroight, am yeh bab?”
James Hare
Greenwald always comes across as holier-than-thou these days. I’d really like to understand where he’s coming from — these days it seems he wants to be Noam Chomsky Junior.
I don’t think he’s a “douchenozzle” like others here have accused him, but I do think he takes it a bit past reasonable. Expecting the President of the United States to be a pacifist leader is pretty rich when said president is tasked with prosecuting and ending two wars started by his predecessor. I think Greenwald falls for the same trap as many on the far left — he assumed Barack Obama was his guy. Obama was never his guy. Obama was always a center-left Democratic politician. Getting a far left president requires electing more than a few far left politicians to high office. Instead of doing that the far left seems to think that by force of moral indignation they’ll convince folks who don’t agree with them to back down and take their positions.
The idea of persuasion is lost on the far left and the far right. They’re so convinced that they are right that they ignore the possibility that others might disagree. I used to try that argument technique but it really failed to make much of a difference with anyone. I was about 12 or 13 when I realized that haranguing people for disagreeing with me was not likely to change their minds.
NancyDarling
@Soonergrunt: Ditto to what everyone else said!
I just saw a head line that there are demonstrations in Malaysia today because of the “film”. I wonder if our friend, Amir, could weigh in with what’s going on.
(And I hope I spelled his name correctly.)
Lawnguylander
Greenwald says:
Yes, our media outlets have been been bending over backwards to be fair to Obama and the by extension, the entire Democratic agenda. Such an honest man is Glenn Greenwald. Such a clear sighted, keen observer of our modern media landscape. Where would we be without him.
And speaking of Douchebags:@El Tiburon:
Hey, why don’t you share your fantasy about physically abusing a child for having an accident in the back seat of your car again? It was at the end of an old thread the last time I saw that from you and I feel bad that a lot of regular readers probably missed it.
Raven
@NancyDarling: Al Jazera is live bloging
http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/topic/anti-islam-film-protests-10701
Punchy
@Soonergrunt: But did you get that T-bone with food stamps?
Raven
@Lawnguylander: When Obama takes it to the rack with that left hand reject it!
Elizabelle
Soonergrunt:
3 cheers for the Ford Fusion’s airbags. So glad they kept you safe and blog-ready.
Glad you came through OK, and drugs iz yer friend in this circumstance.
(Also glad your very cute pup was apparently not riding along, or she would have been launched?)
And: may I point out that Obama’s Cash for Clunkers program also took a lot of older vehicles without airbags off the market? Safety technology has come a long way.
jshooper
@ericblair: I rememeber that…especially among the paultard firebaggers like GG…1st they claimed obama was siding with the dictator against the innocent people who were getting slaughtered…obama was turning a blind eye to a human rights crisis….then as soon as he decided to join with NATO and impose the no fly zone…it became ” OBAMA IS WORSE THAN BUSH !!!”…” THIS IS IRAQ PART 2″…”WAR FOR OIL !!!”…”bombing innocent muslims”…etc etc…they instantly forgot about the humanitarian crisis and went straight into the smear campaign
Exurban Mom
@Soonergrunt: Thank FSM you are okay. Thanks for modern car safety tools…awesome.
Raven
CNN
“Egypt’s influential Muslim Brotherhood canceled nationwide protests planned for Friday, but said a demonstration planned for Cairo’s Tahrir Square will go ahead, and a running battle between police and protesters in Cairo continued into its fourth day Friday.”
TK421
The president really, really wants to be able to lock up people indefinitely without a trial:
Obama Administration Appeals NDAA Ruling – Business Insider
burnspbesq
I expect I’ll find some rage for Greenwald later today, but right now my rage is all going out to Rep. Doc Hastings, R-WA. Son, what the fuck is wrong with you?
http://www.patagonia.com/email/12/091412.html?sssdmh=dm23.149693
FlipYrWhig
@James Hare:
Was it eemom who had a friend who went to law school with Greenwald and said that he was always glowering in the corner? I don’t think his holier-than-thou-ness is of recent vintage.
His shtick, which I think he’s sincere about, is that there are certain political principles that must remain inviolate, and there is no excuse to cave on those on the grounds of _realpolitik_ or other kinds of national interest. I think that’s loopy myself, but that’s his vision: there are rights and there are wrongs, and you must never commit a wrong with the imprimatur of the American government, no exceptions. He does not even attempt to see things from the vantage point of a politician or a president in a messy world, because that by nature, in itself, is to accept that sometimes it might be advisable to betray a higher principle in pursuit of an immediate aim.
Bighorn Ordovican Dolomite
@Chinn Romney:
Small point of clarification: The White House had quote approval only. At least according to Michael Lewis’ interview on NPR. He didn’t show them the story–just the quotes involved.
WereBear
@TK421: Or does he want to invalidate this particular avenue legally; the way he handled DADT?
It’s the way a constitutional law scholar would think; and I don’t care if it gets the job done, hmmmm?
ChrisNYC
Protestors scaled walls and are in embassies in Khartoum and Tunis. Tunisia looks just crazy — gunfire, tear gas, horses. No reg employees at embassies today, supposedly.
FlipYrWhig
@TK421: Or, you know, maybe they want to make a point about the inherent prerogatives of executive power in general — i.e., that no court should be able to trammel the executive’s right to conduct war. I disagree with that view myself, but I also don’t think it’s a matter of asking “What can we do to lock up people indefinitely and have the most fun doing it?” but rather “Why should we let any other part of the government limit our range of options?” Fighting about the extent of executive power is not necessarily the same thing as fighting to be able to use that power for particular dastardly objectives.
Chyron HR
@TK421:
Call me crazy, but publicly criticizing the President with impunity doesn’t seem like the behavior of someone who sincerely believes that he’s being oppressed by a fascist dictator.
Cassidy
@WereBear: @FlipYrWhig: Now, Now, don’t take the young’un’s ODS from him. If he doesn’t have his more liberal than though schtick, then he’s just another wanker in a basement covered in various body fluids.
burnspbesq
@TK421:
Go read Ben Wittes analysis of the District Court opinion at Lawfare. The judge ignored the facts and misread the law. The opinion is an abomination, and must be overturned, regardless of what anyone thinks about detention policy.
http://www.lawfareblog.com/2012/09/initial-thoughts-on-hedges/
Dennis SGMM
@burnspbesq:
What the fuck are these people thinking? Habitat restoration in a good that will give back for generations.
Wait, we live in an ecosystem. People like Hastings hear the first part of that word and that makes them angry so they ignore the second.
Chinn Romney
@Bighorn Ordovican Dolomite:
Okay Bighorn, clarification noted! I only got through the first 2 pages of the piece. Actually don’t have a problem with that sort of article. But I’m with Greenwald in that it’s not a substitute for real journalism either.
As for the lunatics bashing Greenwald in this thread, I can offer only my pity. I don’t see much difference between them and the more rabid on the right. I really don’t.
FlipYrWhig
@Chinn Romney: Because if there’s one thing Glenn Greenwald is the opposite of, it’s rabid.
kd bart
Is it too late to nominate Sheehan/Choi?
Cassidy
@kd bart: But is that progressive enough?
HRA
Wow! When Ruth Marcus slaps you down, many others are totally against you silently, Willard.
Glad you are not hurt badly, Sooner. Truth is if I could afford a semi-cab, it would be my choice in staying safe from the amateurs now on the road.
eemom
@FlipYrWhig:
Yes, and that is exactly what she said.
Some mighty fine Greenwald snark going down on this thread, I must say. It’s just like old times ’round here.
Now, if only His Holier Than Thouness would swoop in and shit down a few “Dear Leaders” before flying disdainfully back to the rain forest, all would be complete.
ChrisNYC
Three protestors killed in US Embassy Khartoum. Reports Al Jazeera. They have a live stream.
amk
The poutraged argle-bargle of ggbots is quite funny to read.
burnspbesq
@burnspbesq:
ETA: and if you’re wondering why the government filed its notice of appeal so quickly, it’s to give the Second Circuit jurisdiction to stay the District Court’s absurdly over-broad injunction.
I’m hoping to see the Second Circuit deliver a righteous beat-down, starting with a complete repudiation of the District Court’s ridiculous standing analysis.
FlipYrWhig
@eemom: BTW, glad you’re back.
Chyron HR
@Chinn Romney:
Whereas Glenn “Obama hates the Constitution and is destroying America” Greenwald in no way sounds like someone on the right.
Steve
@burnspbesq: Isn’t Wittes’ conclusion more than a little zany? He says that by enjoining the application of the NDAA’s detention provision “in any manner, as to any person,” OMFG maybe the judge has enjoined our forces in Afghanistan from detaining terrorist supporters!
Here’s the thing, though: I’m pretty sure that whatever the source of our authority to detain bad guys in Afghanistan might be, it’s not the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012. Because if it were, that would sort of imply that we didn’t have the legal authority to detain anyone in Afghanistan until 2012, now wouldn’t it?
I look forward to reading the full ruling but I think Wittes may have gotten just a LITTLE ahead of himself here. From a quick skim of the opinion, it seems like the Government’s biggest problem is that they couldn’t assure the court that military detention wouldn’t be used against people solely on the basis of their First Amendment protected activities. Now, without going all Greenwald on you, that does kinda sound like the sort of thing courts, and citizens, ought to worry about.
Tractarian
I have mixed feelings about Greenwald. He’s obviously an exceedingly smart man, and I think his heart is in the right place.
I think his problem is that he often takes a simplistic view of the options available on a given issue; and that causes him to think that certain decisions are easy if you have your priorities straight; which, in turn, causes him to exhibit High Dudgeon (in capital letters, per Glenn’s habit) whenever things don’t go his way.
That said, I get this nagging feeling that we need people like Greenwald to keep Democrats honest. Yes, his criticisms are often unfair, but there are lots of unfair criticisms of Democrats hurled around these days, and it’s helpful if some of the unfair criticism comes from the left instead of the right.
That said, I’m still glad I don’t read him.
Villago Delenda Est
@Dennis SGMM:
It’s the “give back for generations” part. Not soon enough for next fiscal quarter’s bottom line.
It is always, always, about short term profit at the expense of long term consequences and prosperity with these folks.
Not to worry. Adam Smith identified this mentality over two centuries ago. Eventually, someone will read his book and bring this knowledge to the rest of us.
burnspbesq
@Chinn Romney:
Greenwald is a third-rate legal mind who substitutes blind outrage for analysis. He can’t keep up with guys like Scott Horton, Marty Lederman, or Jack Goldsmith, he knows it, and it drives him nuts.
Fuck that.
The Moar You Know
@Soonergrunt: I drive a 250, not my main ride. Those trucks are friggin’ huge. That oval would be right at driver’s head height on a Focus. They must have some fine airbags in those cars, because by all rights you should be dead. I’m really glad you’re not only still with us, but seem relatively uninjured. Did they CAT scan your head or anything? I hope so, you got hit hard no matter how much cushion there was between you and the Battlestar Galactica truck (that’s what call mine, huge, gray, can’t maneuver).
Mnemosyne
@Soonergrunt:
Yikes! Glad you walked away from that. If they gave you anti-inflammatories (Motrin, Aleve, etc.) make sure to take them on schedule rather than waiting until the pain starts up again — they’re way more effective that way.
@Matt McIrvin:
I guess that’s part of what I don’t get about the criticism here — do the critics of the article actually think that everything in the article is being presented as God’s Own Truth and not the opinions of the people living and working in the White House?
burnspbesq
@Dennis SGMM:
More re Hasings.
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2012/08/doc_hastings_holds_hearing_on.php
Lawnguylander
@Tractarian:
Yeah,one hallmark of exceedingly smart people is that they trusted Bush/Cheney when they were lying us into war with Iraq. Another is taking exceedingly simplistic views on various issues. We need more of this from the left, as you say. Unfair simplicity will liberate us.
Amir Khalid
@NancyDarling:
Nothing major to report. The protests here have been small, only a few dozen participants, and peaceful. Not big enough to claim the front-page lead spot at any newspaper. The one in KL was near the Hindu temple at Batu Caves, way out in the ‘burbs.
A big potentially nasty protest here over this is highly unlikely. Such protests only happen over local and national issues. There were protest rallies when Salman Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses came out (attended by people who’d never read it because it’s banned here) but nothing big.
@soonergrunt:
Glad you’re okay. I guess you’re going to be shaken up for another day or so. So take the meds and chill. The worst accident I’ve been in while in a car was when I was in a cab that was stopped at a red light. We got rear-ended by a Lexus SUV; the driver was busy checking text messages on his cellphone. I banged my head on the C-pillar and had a big headache for the next couple of days.
shortstop
I can’t stand Greenwald for the reasons others have outlined. But I haven’t read him for years. Why should I? Why should anyone who thinks he’s pointless? Why do a few people here who really dislike him seem to spend actual hours every week thinking about him? I’m not talking about a one-off or even occasional diss like this post; I’m talking about people who constantly bring him up when the topic has nothing to do with him, or repeatedly fantasize about getting into arguments with him. It’s creepy.
FlipYrWhig
@Tractarian: I think there’s some merit to that case, but, to quibble a bit, I don’t think Greenwald’s critiques are “from the left.” They may be critiques, and they may have some power, but they’re not left/right critiques. They’re more like small-r republican or “civic republican” critiques about unfreedom and corruption.
Cassidy
@shortstop: I’m of the school where if you call yourself a libertarian, you have told me everything I need to know about you.
burnspbesq
@Steve:
I dunno, my understanding of the meaning of the word “any” is pretty close to Ben’s. I don’t know how the District Court would go about enforcing the injunction outside the Southern District (send the Marshal’s Service to Helmand to bring Marines back to New York pursuant to an OSC re contempt?), but I don’t doubt that the judge intends her injunction to be in force in the entire known universe, including on Babylon 5.
jaleh
Not going to click on Greenwald, I’ve been there before and don’t need it this morning. I want to be in a good mood since the polls looking good, for now.
shortstop
@Cassidy: Yes, and I feel the same about librarians, although what they’ve told me about themselves is actually positive.
So I just got back from a run that took me past several public schools. Lots of energy (and bass drums from music departments) in the protest lines this morning. Much honking from passing drivers. The local polls are turning heavily against Rahm. I really like it when bullies get theirs.
quannlace
Just heard the soundbite where Romney says Obama will lie during the debates, cause, as he said smirkingly, ‘the president tends to, how shall I say it, to say things that aren’t true,”
And lightening didn’t come zinging out of the sky? There is no God.
(And I noticed that it’s okay to use the ‘L’ word when you’re talking about the President, but never a Republican. Heavens no!)
shortstop
@quannlace: They finally ARE listening to Rove.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@The Ancient Randonneur:
War Criminals he happily supported, BTW, until he decided to re-brand himself as the ‘anti-torture guy’. Right about the same time Bush’s immigration policy hurt him personally.
Motives matter. So does character. I question both, in GG’s case, even when I agree with him.
gwangung
@Bill in Section 147:
Greenwald’s answer: Sure you can.
My answer: Of course not; you’re making me laugh, son.
scav
@shortstop: I heard some honking too yesterday from what must have been a miniparade past my appt. And lots of red shirts any time I take a walk.
Cassidy
@shortstop: )Oddly enough, the term librarian draws the same response.
@quannlace: Well, to be fair, Romney isn’t a ni-(clang).
Cassidy
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God: Don’t be so harsh. It’s like new Coke!
Dennis SGMM
@burnspbesq:
This guy is out to do damage across the entire country. What are the odds that the national press won’t call him on it?
Unabogie
Look, I used to read GG all the time. But let’s not forget that his first blog was called “Unclaimed Territory” and was ostensibly about a middle of the road writer who was appalled at the Bushies’ overreach after years of not paying attention to politics. Let us also remember that his second book was about “Manichean thinking” and how bad it is.
The fact that he has become a poster boy for Manichean thinking should not go unnoticed, okay?
Matt McIrvin
@shortstop: In my case, I think I feel inclined to extend a certain amount of bending-over-backwards sympathy to Greenwald just because, around the time Obama was about to take office, I remember a bunch of libertarians and Marxist radicals and whatnot saying “you liberal Democrats are all anti-imperialist now, but just watch, the moment Obama starts pulling the same crap you’re all going to fall into line and become good courtiers.”
And then Obama took office and started pulling at least some of the same crap (in particular, Justice Department lawyers kept defending detention policies that had been the target of a lot of liberal rage under Bush). And while there was some liberal protest over it, it didn’t lead to a lot of screaming about impeaching Obama, etc. except from the likes of Greenwald.
So I think we need him out there. I don’t think we need to fall into line behind everything he says.
Steve
@burnspbesq: Yes, but she didn’t say the government couldn’t detain “any person,” which would make no sense and would require everyone in federal prison to be released. She said the government couldn’t enforce the specific detention provision in the NDAA as to “any person.”
Again, if Wittes really thinks the only authority for our military to hold detainees in Afghanistan comes from that specific provision in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012, then he needs to explain how the heck our troops detained anyone in Afghanistan prior to 2012.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ (formerly IrishGrrrl)
@Soonergrunt: Wow, glad you’re okay! Thank goodness for all those sozhulist safety standards the gubmint forces on our car manufacturers, right?
Rex Everything
@Chyron HR:
Now your statement is correct.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ (formerly IrishGrrrl)
@gwangung:
burnspbesq
@Dennis SGMM:
How much influence do Mother Jones and The Christian Science Monitor have?
I hope that America and the NCR will weigh in. As Catholics, we are called by God to be responsible stewards of His Creation.
I highly doubt that the Times, the Kaplan Daily, TNR, the Atlantic, Politico, or any of the other usual suspects will go anywhere near this story.
Randy P
@Chinn Romney: Except they never saw the article before it went to print. They approved the direct quotes, nothing else. According to the writer, he would never have offered to let them see the story and they knew better than to ask.
Source: Interview on “Fresh Air”
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ (formerly IrishGrrrl)
@Matt McIrvin: I would be inclined to support GG as an official “gadfly” if his responses were in any way measured (as for example your own post was) and admitting that he doesn’t have the WHOLE truth. But it’s all or nothing with GG and in that he is exactly like the extreme right.
different-church-lady
Aww, poor Glenn haz a sad because he’s not the only one who gets to spin Obama’s image.
burnspbesq
@Steve:
I think that points out, albeit clumsily, one of the major analytical flaws in the opinion: it reads the Feinstein Amendment out of the NDAA. The Feinstein Amendment, as you’ll recall, says that nothing in Section 1021 should be read as changing existing law. The authority to detain Al Qaeda and Taliban combatants derives from the AUMF.
Hopefully the Second Circuit will stay the injunction and these questions will become moot.
Even Human Rights First is aware of the problems with the opinion.
http://www.lawfareblog.com/2012/09/raha-wala-on-hedges-and-my-response/
ruemara
I simply don’t care enough about GG to comment and I find it funny that so many deep liberal thinkers rush to defend his pure, true thoughts. I figure, he’s a big boy and should be held to the same critical standards he espouses. At least you’ve managed to turn an article about Obama and a journo who spent 8 months with him back to being about GG. But the real big issue here is, @Soonergrunt, so glad you are ok. Get everything checked out, please and rest up. This is terrifying just to witness, I can’t imagine going through it.
SBJules
After you’ve read the Vanity Fair piece on the President, be sure to read about scientology.
Death Panel Truck
@Soonergrunt: Glad you weren’t seriously hurt. Hydrocodone may be a gift to you and others, but that shit makes me violently ill. Puking sick.
Now Tylenol #3, on the other hand… ;)
different-church-lady
@greennotGreen:
I hear there’s these newfangled things called “tape recorders”.
ETA: I see arguingwithsignposts beat me to it.
And what does ETA stand for anyway?
Steve
@burnspbesq: That’s an interesting point. I think the judge’s conclusion recognizes that the AUMF and the NDAA continue to be two very different things. Maybe she’s saying that the military can detain combatants under the AUMF, but not mere “supporters.” I dunno, if the military in Afghanistan detains someone who isn’t actually a combatant, but merely a “supporter” of the Taliban, do they have statutory authority for that? Do they need it?
In a way, maybe it’s a good thing they put that stuff in the NDAA because at least we’re letting the courts hash it out now. I think the Government is really killing itself by refusing to concede any limits whatsoever on its right to exercise the authority within the United States, on its right to exercise it on people solely engaged in First Amendment protected activity, and the like. I can see why the courts hate it. If you don’t articulate any limits they’re going to create one for you and you probably won’t like it.
grandpa john
@Chinn Romney: Really? maybe you have the problem that Pope identified in his “Essay on Criticism”
different-church-lady
@LAC: I ain’t gonna say I agree with what you said. I am going to say that I am damned impressed by the way with which you said it. I mean, that’s in the hole from the near edge of the bunker on 17 for a birdie.
different-church-lady
@James Hare: I don’t think your assessment of GG is entirely accurate, but your last graph is so spot on. And for progressives it plays out in other negative ways: when they do get legislation passed, they think the benefits are self-evident, never bother explaining them, and before you know it “death panels” have filled the information void.
Soonergrunt
@Ms. D. Ranged in AZ (formerly IrishGrrrl): yup!
Bill in Section 147
@gwangung: I’ve noticed a lot more people agree with me when I make my fist puny and shake it vigorously.
Southern Beale
Anti-abortion fanatics visit Little Rock this weekend. I can’t laugh at these people because they are very, very dangerous, but when they yell at a 66-year-old woman that she’s murdering her baby, you gotta wonder….
different-church-lady
@Elizabelle:
You may not point that out as long as there’s DRONZE!!!!!!!
Heliopause
Fixed.
Sly
Do any of those sub-parts pertain to the raping of nuns?
LAC
@different-church-lady: Thank you! :->
different-church-lady
@Tractarian:
[scratches head…] It is? How?
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady: Or, to come at it another way, it’s not enough to be right (even if you totally are), you also have to be persuasive. And a lot of the people you have to persuade are stone cold ignorant.
different-church-lady
@shortstop:
The entire point of the blogsphere is to argue with other parts of the blogsphere.
different-church-lady
@FlipYrWhig: Of course, being right is also a helpful attribute. One upon which I’m not sure GG is always up to snuff.
Bill in Section 147
@FlipYrWhig: Sometimes I shout, “The sky is blue! The sky is blue!” but I don’t start every discussion with it.
Also too, I realize the sky is sometimes brown and gray and obscured by clouds and at night it gets dark. But fundamentally, conceptually, theoretically, figuratively and/or perhaps literally it is blue.
It doesn’t make GG right or wrong. It does not make Obama, or his administration, or the totality of the United States, good or bad. And me screaming or crying or analyzing or complaining about it does not mean as much as you think. I believe actions, acts, what I really do about the wrongs and injustices and ills of the world far surpass what I write here. What I do in my daily life to make the lives of the people I share my small bit of earth with better have more consequence.
Yutsano
@Soonergrunt: YOWZA!!
Get the Fusion. You’ll thank me later.
Quicksand
@Dennis SGMM:
Yes, and thanks for saying this, Dennis. It’s important.
patroclus
I have often criticized Dear Leader Greenwald for his unhinged rants and his love for the racist Ron Paul and his ridiculous double standards and (fill in the blank). But I actually read his Guardian article and I agree with him that the Lewis Vanity Fair article was an unmitigated puff piece that (with quote approval) merely reiterates the administration’s point of view. So, while Dear Leader Greenwald is often wrong, I don’t think he’s wrong here.
On the other hand, I liked Lewis’ unmitigated puff piece and actually learned more about Obama than I ever would from Dear Leader Greenwald.
burnspbesq
@Steve:
My answer would be “probably not,” and if habeas jurisdiction extends to Gitmo, logically it would also extend to Bagram. However, given the despicable record of the D.C. Circuit in Gitmo habeas cases, I wouldn’t bet much on my or any other lawyer’s ability to spring a loud-mouthed mullah from Bagram.
Laertes
@patroclus:
This. Greenwald makes a pretty solid argument here that giving quote approval necessarily leads to useless puff pieces.
burnspbesq
@patroclus:
I agree that the Lewis piece is hardly a shining example of hard-hitting journamalism, but the larger issue is Greenwald continuing to ascribe evil motives to anyone and anything that doesn’t fall into lockstep with the Greenwald view of the world. Per Greenwald, it is inconcievable that anyone could have a principled disagreement with Greenwald.
noodler
Got a good friend at amemb tunis. Such a tough week for the foreign svc. Large dos crowd at Andrews afb today for the arrival of amb stevens of our colleagues from ly
different-church-lady
@burnspbesq: In other words, “Epistemic closure, table for one.”
Darkrose
@Soonergrunt: Ouch! Glad you’re okay.
And I know that feeling. When I totaled my first car, a 2000 VW Bug, the state trooper shook his head and said, “I had a Bug back in the day. You wouldn’t have walked away from that one.”
Darkrose
I’m trying to figure out why anyone expected hard-hitting journalism out of a piece in Vanity Fair.
Arclite
@Dimmic Rat:
I have rented a Fusion a couple of times. It’s quite an excellent vehicle.
ruemara
Having fully read and digested the VF article in question, I can say without reservations that the “puff piece” whine is nuts. It’s not a hard hitting article with an intent to dissect critically the moral and ethical decisions made by Barack Obama, President of the United States of America. It is an in-depth look at the person who is Barack Obama and how he handles the dichotomy of being himself and being POTUS. Essentially, it’s an empathy piece. If GG or Vanden Huevel would prefer a hard hitting expose of the decision making of the Libya strikes, it’s ethical ramifications, possibly establishment of precedence for another President, I believe they are adequately equipped to do so. This article, however, has no such agenda. Think of it more as a Parade article but for literate people.
Arclite
Does anyone consider Vanity Fair a journalistic endeavor?
Anna in PDX
Re Greenwald and his refrains:
The problems with the NDAA and other such issues are a lot deeper than individual presidents who have helped move this legislation forward. The fact is that there is an overwhelming bipartisan support for the damned thing in both House and Senate. No matter who’s president, they aren’t going to unilaterally disarm the Executive Branch when the Legislative Branch is the one that writes the laws. We need to slowly fight this by criticizing presidential actions when necessary, but mostly by electing downballot progressives who care about civil liberties and the rule of law. Greenwald focuses mostly on the former and it just isn’t going to change anything though it is good to know what’s going on. I agree with everyone who says that being the president of the most powerful country in the world is hard and entails making decisions that will affect lots of people on matters of life and death. You could not pay ME enough to do it. But that doesn’t mean that presidential actions should not be called out, as long as we are realistic about it.
Re the article: Hope this thread is still alive when I have time to read it after work today. I am not nearly quick on the draw enough and usually have something to say after there are five more open threads above and no one is following any more. *sigh*
ETA I forgot to say I am happy that the accident only totaled the car and not you, SG. Hope you feel better, calmer and less sore, soon. I broke an ankle recently and I agree with you that hydrocodone is a really good thing.
Anna in PDX
@Arclite: Well, sometimes it has had really good articles. But lately, I don’t really think so. I always thought it was more about the photographs…
FlipYrWhig
@Bill in Section 147: In case it wasn’t clear, I was not voicing my own actual views in that comment, I was describing someone else’s thought process.
Origuy
It’s a good thing the auto manufacturers decided to put airbags and side reinforcement into their cars with no government regulations, isn’t it?
Moik
@Sly:
When does the Jihad against the Onion start?
WaterGirl
@Soonergrunt: So glad you are okay!
Even on TV, I find it shocking when someone in a car gets hit on the driver’s side by a vehicle that comes out of nowhere. I can only imagine how shocking it is in real life, especially when it’s a big truck. Yikes. That may haunt you for awhile. Wishing you peace, that’s for sure.
El Tiburon
@Soonergrunt:
Funny you should say that.
True story: I lived in Denver in 5th-6th grade when Denver played in their very first Super Bowl against the Cowboys. That entire was fucking nuts. Those stupid fucking Orange Crush t-shirts were everywhere.
Well, being as I was a Dallas Cowboys fan it was a glorious day when we stomped old Craig Morton and Lyle Alzado and the rest of the Broncos. It sure was fun wearing my Cowboys t-shirt to school on Monday.
Shit you aren’t a sooners fan. There goes that fun. I gues I’ll wait until UT plays West Virginia and rag on Cole for a bit.
FMguru
@Darkrose: VF’s entire specialty is well-written profiles of celebrities, done with the celebrity’s partipation and usually with editing approval from the celeb’s people. This is just the same thing, except for Obama instead of George Clooney or Alec Baldwin.
VF’S also sometimes does some hard-hitting real journalism, like that comprehensive piece a few months ago on Mitt’s offshore holdings and how Bain made its fortune.
PopeRatzo
To be fair, all of Glenn Greenwald’s second updates have at least four sub-parts.
Isn’t he listed in the encyclopedia as the inventor of the update with sub-parts? It’s among his most successful innovations, along with self-righteousness.
xian
@Chinn Romney: how does quotation approval equate to what you described. Per Lewis they’re mainly filtering for faux outrage bait.
Bruce S
@Darkrose:
To be fair, Stiglitz wrote a great piece on income inequality for VF.
And I don’t think anyone thinks that Lewis’ VF piece on the Prez was investigative journalism so much as a personality-driven human interest story. Given that, the guidelines are probably justifiable, although GG is right when it comes to access journalism and the tendency of reporters to suck up to their subjects. Michael Lewis wasn’t writing a hard-hitting investigation of the Obama administration and the financial crisis – he was looking at process and Obama the man adjusting to the ultra-demanding role of POTUS. Different journalistic objectives.
wrb
@greennotGreen:
Yep. I always try for quote approval not because I’d mind if they reported what I said, but because very often their first attempt is close to the opposite of what I said.
So what I mean by “quote approval” is really just a chance to proofread them.