Via Buzzfeed:
Staffers for Sen. Scott Brown were caught on video this week at a rally in Boston chanting Indian “war whoops” and making tomahawk chop gestures, mocking Democratic challenger Elizabeth Warren.
Pictured in the video are deputy Chief of Staff Greg Casey, Constituent Service Counsel Jack Richard, and a Republican operative named Brad Garrett, according to Boston’s ABC affiliate.
Native Americans reportedly responded, ‘WE WERE HERE FIRST, ASSHOLES.”
[read full post at ABLC]
Zifnab
How does Scott Brown not win this thing?
Violet
Just posted this in the thread below. I hope it turns off his more moderate and independent supporters. Brown is encouraging it with all his talk of her background.
I Am Mitt's Smirk (né Studly Pantload, t.e.u.u.)
The words. They fail me.
Forum Transmitted Disease
I think we should all count ourselves lucky that they limited themselves to this, instead of grabbing some Native Americans and actually hacking them to bits.
After all, Massachusetts, The Asshole State, has a very real history of doing exactly that.
Villago Delenda Est
These guys are PROUD to be assholes. It’s what they are! Loud and proud!
It won’t stop until being an asshole is no longer a point of pride. Will probably take a series of beatings to get the message through, but frankly, I’m not sure even that will help.
Patricia Kayden
He should kick them off his campaign. Disgusting.
I know several Black folks who are proud of their Native American heritage. What’s the big deal that she’s proud of hers?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Is the asshole in the beige backwards baseball cap one of the operatives? I think this is bad for Brown, but as with Romney’s welfare ad, I think I’m gonna be disappointed in the lack of outrage amongst the non-MSNBC media.
Violet
Some Scott Brown staffers are in the crowd and chanting and gesturing. Don’t think that’s going to help him with moderates and independents who consider themselves tolerant.
gbear
Macacca moment for Brown? Enough to cost him the election?
rikyrah
words don’t fail me.
this is some racist ass shyt.
Anya
Are congressional staffers allowed to participate in campaigns? Also, Constituent Service Counsel? WTF constituent services does this racist douche provide anyway? What a bunch of juvenile dickheads.
Ash Can
I like how, in the linked story, Scotty claims he doesn’t condone their behavior, and in the same breath immediately puts the blame for it squarely on Warren. Personal responsibility, bitchez!
brent
I haven’t been to Boston since I was in College – like 20 years ago – but can this sort of thing really be effective. Clearly they think there is something to be gained here but its hard for me to imagine the constituency that would find this appealing. I have seen some hints on various shows that there is actually a demographic in Mass which can be persuaded by these sorts of base tactics but how large a group could it really be?
Cassidy
@Villago Delenda Est: I don’t know if it will help either, but I have a trusty baseball bat I’m willing to sacrifice.
Forum Transmitted Disease
You take kids, raise them with only superficial training in politeness (just enough to keep them from a lifetime of beatings, and most parents are failing at even that) and fail to include the core underpinning of manners, which is “respect for others”, and you end up with this shit.
Good going, America.
4tehlulz
Needs more racism.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
as with Reince Preibus and frequently Romney and god knows how many others, it’s not just the stupid, assholish behavior, it’s the smug, gleeful pride that take in being stupid assholes that makes even my mild-mannered phlegmatic self want to reach for that baseball bat.
Hungry Joe
@I Am Mitt’s Smirk (né Studly Pantload, t.e.u.u.):
Failing me, too. Come on, words …
Nope. Not there. Just … wait … here come a few: Jerks, idiots, frat-boy assholes.
Violet
I just don’t see how this video can help Scott Brown. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea or funny is already going to support Brown. Anyone in the middle or wavering isn’t going to like it. It’s one thing to be called “Massholes”. It’s another thing for your elected rep’s staff to act like racist idiots in public.
jibeaux
It’s a real headscratcher how this party isn’t making greater inroads with the female, nonwhite, and nonasshole demographics.
I Am Mitt's Smirk (né Studly Pantload, t.e.u.u.)
Suggested new GOP motto:
“Fuck ALL the chickens!”
(H/T to Hyperbole And A Half)
Villago Delenda Est
@Hungry Joe:
Does the name
George Dubya Bushdeserting coward ring a bell? How about Dubya Mittens Rmoney?Lurking Canadian
@Violet: This. Is this going to persuade anybody who already wasn’t voting for Brown?
What the hell is wrong with these people? Isn’t Brown supposed to be the mythical “good” Republican?
Brachiator
So, apart from Brown supporters making fools of themselves, what is the point of all this?
Is this kind of crap resonating with voters? Or does it represent any negative view of Warren among voters?
Or is it just infantile tribalism on the part of a segment of the MA voting class?
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Patricia Kayden: She doesn’t have any.
I understand how this could have happened to her. For decades, I was told by my mother that I was 1/8 Cheyenne, via her grandmother. I had every reason to believe her – I’m dark, have virtually no body hair…etc. It made sense. Plus, are you going to think your mom would lie about something like that? Shit, I told everybody I was part Indian. Just like Warren.
I had DNA testing done last year. Put nicely, my mother was fibbing. Big Mama wasn’t Indian. I would normally have then promptly suspected that Big Mama was part black, as that’s how they dealt with that sort of thing in the South, but the DNA doesn’t show that to be the case either.
SatanicPanic
What you can’t take a joke you PC Liberal Nazis?
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic:
Rush’s lawyers called. You’re infringing trademark.
Mnemosyne
I’m guessing that the defense will be that they’re not making fun of Native Americans, they’re making fun of Warren for claiming to be one when she’s not. (Of course, it’s not actually proven that she has no Native American heritage, and there are plenty of people with documented Native American ancestors who are not eligible to be entered on the tribal rolls, but that’s not really relevant.) But it’s pretty hard to simultaneously indulge in racist stereotypes and claim that you’re doing it to critique someone for not fitting that stereotype.
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est: You know they’re just Obama plants. Stop trying to cover for your Dear Leader.
blingee
Some of you people are kidding yourself. Yea Warren is a strong candidate for progressives but that is not what wins elections. The fact she is female is 2 strikes against her in Mass…that’s just a fact.
The only reason she is still in this thing is because of the headwinds the dynsfunctional Rmoney campaign is creating for the downticket GOP races.
jibeaux
@Mnemosyne: They definitely will make that case, but it’s just so far up the ass of inner rightwing blogistan and so far off of everyone else’s radar, they might as well throw a Fast and Furious reference in there while they’re at it.
nemesis
Another staged Brooks Brothers revolt. Beat them E Warren. Beat them with a big stick. Pulverize them.
Villago Delenda Est
So, has Elizabeth Warren ever made a concerted effort to get included on some tribal roster in order to receive those sweet, sweet dividend checks from the profits of the Wild Tomahawks Cas1no and Resort, sticking it to paleface with one armed bandits and craps tables?
She hasn’t?
Then who gives a rat’s ass about it?
EconWatcher
I have to believe, if Brown doesn’t fire the staffers and make a very clear apology, this will be a big issue for him. If he does take decisive action and apologize, then it won’t be. But surely he can’t just shrug this off.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: It would be kind of funny if she surreptitiously took a DNA test, found out she had Native American heritage, then released the info before the next debate. If it showed she doesn’t, she wouldn’t have to let anyone know.
Violet
@EconWatcher:
Brown’s “apology”:
Punchy
Brown offends the Reds, yellows himself, throws the white flag, gets no support from Blacks.
Librarian
I wonder if Sullivan still supports him?
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: There’s nothing minorities love more than having their stereotypes paraded in front of them by white people.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@blingee:
Really? These guys aren’t assholes? Because that’s what most of us are saying. A couple people have said it should cost him the election, and a couple of people have asked if it will. Up to comment 31 I don’t see anyone saying “Brown is toast”. I think everyone here can read polls and has seen how this race has gone and that Warren isn’t the shoe-in we’d like her to be.
EconWatcher
@Violet:
I can’t believe that’s going to be good enough, even with our supine press. If it were just his supporters, maybe. But if paid staffers were involved, he’s responsible for what they do, and he can’t just say he doesn’t condone it.
Maybe the issue needs to be reframed: Senator Brown, are you saying you are incapable of controlling the conduct of your paid staffers, and have no responsiblity for them? If so, do you think you are qualifed to run a car wash?
Villago Delenda Est
@Violet:
So, non apology “apology”.
Brown is scum. His staffers are scum.
Yutsano
@blingee: Shorter Durf: “Sit down and shut up stupid woman!!”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Yutsano: Oh, shit, I responded to Derf? My bad.
eric
‘Chicken much sore, kemosabe.”
blingee
@Yutsano: Funny you should think that. Care to elaborate? You projecting or something?
Lurking Canadian
@Villago Delenda Est: Brown’s “claim” seems to be that she fraudulently got some preferment (hiring, tenure, promotion, something) out of her Cherokee heritage. He seems undaunted by the fact that (1) there’s no evidence she ever did get such preferment or (2) she seems to have acted at all times in good faith, based on family legends the accuracy of which is still unclear. (According to wikipedia, some geneology outfit tried to hunt the claim down and was only able to say they could “neither confirm nor deny”).
What all of this has to do with tomahawk chops and war whoops is anybody’s guess.
EconWatcher
@eric:
I LOLed, and felt oddly ashamed and dirty afterwards…
Ed Drone
Brown’s debate point, “She certainly doesn’t LOOK Indian” is a crock. I’m part Cherokee (part of the family migrated from Greenville, TN to Iowa three generations ago) and am as white-ass Irish-looking as you can get. I know that the tribes in early America (pre- and post-Revolution) regularly included Scots-Irish and other white members as fully-integrated members of the group, with no discrimination among themselves, and the same went for Africans (freedmen or runaways, including enslaved Africans themselves — Indians practiced slavery, too, you know*).
So no one can tell by looking whether the person in question is “racially pure,” in particular when dealing with Native American groups, since they themselves were much less color-conscious than the surrounding white society.
Ed
Note: * At least some Indian tribes held their slaves for a temporary period (several years), then integrated them into their society. They got their slaves by raiding each other, but later on simply bought them from Southern slave dealers. But even then, the slavery was often closer to the “indentured” status some white settlers arrived in America under.
rb
@Forum Transmitted Disease: There is no genetic test for “black.”
And Warren absolutely has Native American heritage.
It’s not necessarily true that 1 or more of her great-great-great-grandparents identified as NA, but even writing it that way underlines the absurdity of the whole conversation. All people can go by is their own family lore.
Villago Delenda Est
@Lurking Canadian:
Well, it’s the lame “justification” for the entire debacle.
Anyone with two functioning neurons can figure this out. Fortunately for Brown, his supporters don’t have two functioning neurons.
Mnemosyne
@blingee:
So if Warren does win thanks to Obama’s coattails, it doesn’t count and Brown still gets to keep the office even if he loses the election because PENlS?
You funny.
@Villago Delenda Est:
The claim (which Brown repeated again in his “apology”) is that Warren supposedly used her “minority” status to get hired by Harvard. There is ZERO evidence that she did it, but that’s the white blue-collar male resentment pony that Brown is riding into the ground.
Frankensteinbeck
@brent: and @Brachiator:
The constituency involved are ‘assholes’, and there are a lot of them. They enjoy feeling hate and mocking others. They’re the people who enjoy trolling. The GOP courts their vote heavily, because all you have to do to get them on your side is let them get away with being the assholes they are.
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
America as a culture fights tooth and nail to defend every parent’s right to abuse and fuck up their children. Conversations about defending children almost always look outwards, pretending it’s strangers who sexually abuse kids and video games that teach them to be violent. It’s a giant game of ‘pay no attention to the abusive parent behind the curtain’ and it’s one of my biggest pet peeves about our society.
The Republic of Stupidity
They can’t help themselves…
It’s just WHO they are…
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
Seems a pretty drastic move for someone who’s only 2-3 points behind, with six weeks to go: Scott Brown’s internal polls must be dismal for him to take this tack at this point.
Even if he wins this, his ‘nice guy’ chit is now cashed in, permanently.
That said, he just might get to keep his Senate seat. But I hereby predict that he just blew his chance to ever be Governor of Massachusetts (which IMO was his logical next step).
lamh35
Wow, classier still:
when asked if he would apologize for his staffers’ behavior.
“The apologies that need to be made and the offensiveness here is the fact that professor Warren took advantage of a claim, to be somebody – a Native American — and using that for an advantage, a tactical advantage,” Brown said.
http://www.boston.com/politicalintelligence/2012/09/25/gop-staffers-make-tomahawk-chops-confrontation-with-warren-supporters/1O6JQ0VZWgl6JQLKvP2UrL/story.html
eric
@EconWatcher: i confess to debating before hitting the “submit comment” button, but then i realized that i would be letting people down if i didnt live up to their expectations ;)
Mnemosyne
@rb:
They do have one for African (and Asian and European) heritage — Henry Louis Gates uses it on most of the participants on his genealogy shows. Basically, they can test for Asian, European, or African ancestry.
It’s very broad and rough, but it does exist. Native American ancestry shows up in the “Asian” column.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@Villago Delenda Est: Can I help in the beatings? Can I, can I, can I? Please?! ;)
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Outrage factor aside, is any of this crap influencing voters in any way?
It seems as though there are a core of MA voters who mock Warren and maybe fear her because she is a woman. But is it generating any strong counter reaction, or are a core of MA voters so brain dead that they can’t rise above their own stupidity?
Has Warren tried to counter any of this with humor or charm?
A post by DougJ earlier, I think, seemed to suggest that Warren is not finding away to appeal to voters on a heart to heart level.
LanceThruster
Is there some sort of GOP douche quotient (like an SAT score) in order to represent the party?
These people are…totally reprehensible (which is apparently a plus with Rethuglicurs).
rb
@Mnemosyne: Correct.
But African middle-term familial ancestry is not the same as “black.”
And long-term, we’re all African.
LanceThruster
@Patricia Kayden:
But didn’t Brown declare she couldn’t have NA blood because…um, look at her?
Maybe if she used Mitt’s bronzer (don’t forget the neck and ears Ms. Warren!).
Violet
@Villago Delenda Est: Scott Brown doesn’t need to win over his supporters. So idiots who think this is funny or like this idea or wish they were there tomahawk chopping too are already on his side.
Scott Brown and Elizabeth Warren are fighting over people in the middle. Those who think Brown’s a “nice guy” and who maybe think tax cuts are great. Totebaggers who pride themselves on being “independent”. People who loved Kennedy but think a divided government might be a good idea. Etc. I just don’t see how this sort of thing is going to help win over those folks.
Add to it, Brown’s racist comments about Warren (“She doesn’t look Indian”) and his non-apology apology (blaming Warren for his guys’ bad behavior) and the whole mess just really begins to add up and stink for him.
I just don’t see any way this sort of thing helps him with the people he needs to vote for him. He’s already got the Massholes who think this is a great idea.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It reminds me of a little child who hears an adult say a dirty word, so they start repeating it. And the parents ignore it or say something ineffectual but the kid knows the adults are very offended by it. So he keeps saying it and the more he says it, the more upset they get but no one stops him. So he becomes more and more smug and gleeful that he is being naughty and getting away with it. This behavior isn’t just juvenile, it’s toddler-like.
Frankensteinbeck
@lamh35:
‘Blame the victim’, tactic #1 of every narcissist, alcoholic, abuser, and just plain mean asshole.
Constantia
@Forum Transmitted Disease: As a native of the great state of MA (state bird: Turkey…no joke!), we are usually called Massholes.
OTOH, first state to legalize civil marriage rights, aka same-sex marriage, on state constitutional grounds. Said constitution written by John Adams, who successfully defended Joseph Cinque from the Amistad. Gov. Patrick took his oath of office on Cinque’s own bible. Talk abut chills!
Here endeth the history lesson. (It is Massachusetts, after all.)
Mnemosyne
@rb:
Sometimes typing out “African-American” is a pain in the butt, and it’s easier to type “black” to mean the same thing. The only person who was confused by what FTD meant was you.
Shawn in ShowMe
@Violet:
It’s almost like Scott Brown, Mitt Romney and Todd Akin are running their campaigns on a dare. “Hey Scott, you know what really bugs me about that professor chick? Her fake Indian schtick. I real man would call her on it.”
chopper
if only warren was part jewish, brown’s guys could have started throwing dollar bills around instead. what a bunch of assholes.
Mnemosyne
@Constantia:
Ahem — Joseph Cinque was defended by John Quincy Adams, John Adams’ son.
John Adams defended the British soldiers who fired on the mob in the Boston Massacre.
LanceThruster
@rb:
So the planet is 100% the 47%?
This will not go over well at the United Daughters of the Confederacy meetings.
Their motto is “Love, Live, Pray, Think, Dare”.
Linda Featheringill
I’ll confess that I haven’t read the thread yet.
But that is racist shit!
I was raised in Oklahoma, in Choctaw territory. I recognize anti-Indian dog whistles but that crap wasn’t a whistle at all. It was out loud, blatant racism. Those assholes owe an apology to the entire population of Native Americans, to the Cherokees, to Elizabeth Warren, and to the rest of the country. That behavior is despicable.
Scott is the head of that campaign and he also should offer apologies.
We have their names, yes? Is there anything we can do? Can we spread that video far and wide? Can we put it on TV in Massachusetts?
Another Halocene Human
And there it is.
I’ve been saying for months that this is about racism and resentment, built on fear, by whites towards Native Americans in Massachusetts. The level of hatred and hostility is very high. Every Native American I knew there lived in or on the edge of poverty, NA activists were all but spit upon by the press and all others, and our education did its best to drive the out and out genocide during the Puritan era under the rug. The very richest people in Mass are sitting on stolen Indian land and they know it. Meanwhile, there are ZERO reservations in Mass and the government refuses to approve a single site for a federally recognized tribe to built a ca s1 no. Hardly prevents vice because the Mohegans, over the border in CT, run coach buses daily all over Mass to pick up debauched pensioners.
ETC: forbidden word
Amir Khalid
@Violet:
As I recall, the universities where Warren worked have stated that she never sought or obtained any affirmative-action preference, which makes Scott Brown’s claim here false.
It sounds to me like Scott Brown is trying to keep pressing the issue even after “apologising”, which in my book makes his apology no apology at all.
Interrobang
@Shawn in ShowMe: You really think any of those three guys would use the word “schtick”? Not on your whiter than a marshmallow fluff and mayo sandwich on Wonder Bread life.
rb
@Mnemosyne: African-American is also not the same as “black” or even “black American.” There is for damn sure no DNA test for African American. What is going on with you today?
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Frankensteinbeck: Thanks for actually reading my post, not sure a couple of the others actually did. I confronted my mother about this. Not only were there no apologies, there was no acknowledgement that she’d done anything wrong by lying about our ancestry. She did at least not deny that she had.
Beginning to find out I’ve been lied to about a bunch of stuff about my family. Not something I want to be finding out in my mid 40s. Some of those people whose relationships with me were affected by her lying are now dead, no way to take things back, do anything differently, or apologize.
At any rate, I almost used this purported ancestry of mine to get into college. Seeing the minefield that Warren has accidentally stepped into, I’m damn glad I didn’t.
Another Halocene Human
@Linda Featheringill: Better–make it a national headline and embarrass the f*ck out of them. They earned it.
chopper
@lamh35:
native american group calls press conference slagging on brown for being an asshole in 3…2…1…
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@rb: I had my DNA done and my line runs similar to Stephen Colbert (I think). Up through northern Europe from haplo K, which were the Ashkenazi Jews (interestingly enough, they have the haplo K group narrowed down to three Hebrew/Levantine women who were the progenitors of all the European descendants with the same kind of mitochondrial DNA).
And from there down through Europe to the Middle East into Africa. So not only are we all from Africa, many of us came to Europe from Semitic peoples. It would be awesome to get blood samples from neo-nazis and show them their Jewish and African ancestry. Maybe they would spontaneously combust and save us all a lot of trouble.
eric
If warren was not wearing that indian skirt, none of this would have happened to her.
these cretins have one play from the same one playbook
Mnemosyne
@rb:
What’s going on with me? You claimed that there is no test for ancestry, when there actually is one. FTD said he took that test and no black (aka “African”) ancestry showed up, and you started nit-picking and claiming that he’s a liar.
Sorry, but the test exists, FTD took it, and FTD is presumably accurately reporting his results. Why are you continuing to argue the point? If you don’t like that a test exists that can roughly say that someone has X percentage of European, Asian, or African ancestry in their mitochondrial DNA, go scream at the people who make the test.
Another Halocene Human
@Ed Drone: That is true, and according to contemporary slave narratives, the Indians did not have the equivalent of the Southern “slave laws”. One slave recounts watching another slave get in an argument with his master. The two came to blows and the slave kicked the master’s ass. Everyone in the tribe was laughing about it and there were no reprisals. Under the slave laws, that slave would have been likely executed and further punishment put upon his family.
I Am Mitt's Smirk (né Studly Pantload, t.e.u.u.)
The sad thing has been that Brown’s attacks on Warren’s ancestry have forced her off her home turf (looking out for the “mythical little guy” [to invoke a phrase a GOPer once infamously used]) and on to his turf, so that she’s had to make an ad defending her prior claims to having some N.A. blood, which is of course not what she wants the conversation to be about.
The potential silver lining is that this tape greatly contracts the already slim number of voters Scott can hope to influence with this type of game plan. Not that Brown hasn’t shown he’s willing to simply fuck this chicken even harder. But in a close election, every bit of drag has the potential to be the definitive nail in the ol’ pine box.
NonyNony
@eric:
playbook? Who needs a whole book for these kinds of plays? It’s more like a play-index card. Or half an index card.
Another Halocene Human
@rb: You can trace mDNA, but that only tells you about the maternal line. If you’re male, you can test y-chromosome and that will give you the male line. You can also look for the presence of certain genes that occur more frequently according to ancestry. There definitely are statistical differences, just look at some recent epidemiology. Or literature on genetic disease.
trollhattan
In related news, Sen. Rand (R–hades) has offered to lend his staffers to Sen. Brown (R–MassConfusion) to help safely secure Warren staffers’ heads to the curb. MUST CREDIT DRUDGE.
slag
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Unless you have some evidence for that statement contrary to that which is in this article, you shouldn’t be making it.
There’s a great debate among the Native American community about how exactly to determine its membership. And there’s an extremely relevant argument to be made for not limiting that membership to those with dark skin and dark hair. A lot of people have concluded that, unless we want the story of Native Americans to end in tragedy and possibly extinction, we should find ways of finding and claiming a broader swath of those who have at least some ancestral ties.
weaselone
Women are the largest beneficiary group of affirmative action. You also have a big group of blue collar male workers who are seeing high paying construction and manufacturing jobs go the way of the dodo as women are increasingly finding work in decent paying service oriented jobs. Brown’s key to the election is to tap into the bitterness, resentment, jealousy and desperation of this group of males in order to keep them from voting for Warren.
Brown can’t just flat out say that Warren is where she is because she is a woman or tell these men that Warren and working women took their jobs. That would probably have the majority of Republican women filling in the oval for Warren. The Native American issue gives him cover to spew this crap. Her job at Harvard, got it by lying about being a Native American. Stole it from a legitimate male Native American.
He may even have gotten away with it if he could have resisted hiring his staff from the fratboy version of never-never land.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Mnemosyne: My grandparents would have spontaneously combusted if they’d seen my results. Lotta Ashkenazi in there. They were so Jew-phobic they insisted that my brother’s middle name be changed, as the original proposal of “Alan” was deemed “too Jewish”. “Allen” it became.
And yeah, I’ve gone back to using “black” instead of “African-American”, as I now have two friends who are technically “African-American”, one from Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, and one from South Africa. They are both substantially whiter in color than I am, both Dutch to the core as far as their ancestry goes. Doesn’t strike me right to lump them in with folks who’ve been here for four hundred years, getting the shit end of the stick the entire time, and were slaves for my ancestor’s benefit for at least two hundred fifty of those years.
rb
@Ms. D. Ranged in AZ: Very cool. That to me is the amazing part of the tech – exactly *how* did certain members of my family (probably) come here (at some point).
And of course its picking out specific subpopulations that tended to remain coherent through many, many generations is cool as well.
But on the other hand: I am fishbelly white, but know to a certainty that I have black ancestors, despite my having no direct knowledge of them. It simply must be true. If I were tested and no major markers of African inheritance showed up, it would not negate this fact.
Ash Can
@Shawn in ShowMe: Speaking of Akin, Show-Me, and douchebaggery, Claire McCaskill has released a recording from last May in which Todd Akin tells a constituent that the way to get his attention is to write him “a decent check.” (via Kragar @ LGF)
Another Halocene Human
@chopper: That’s assuming they have access to the media in Boston, enormous unfounded assumption.
Best I’ve heard was a NA spokesperson from out of state on NPR basically concern-trolling about how people like Warren don’t understand the NA experience and all these white people running around claiming NA ancestry suck, even though Warren didn’t try to claim it to get ahead and her own parents faced anti-NA bigotry even if it was predicated on false premises.
Also, a lot of whites became members of NA tribes during the colonial and post-colonial period and would have carried that identity with them even as they trickled back into the white community. Race and identity are highly disputed due to the eugenics movement and people like Plecker. The stakes for claiming a white identity were very, very high. A number of NA groups also lost their legal identity permanently and were reclassified as Black.
hep kitty
Must be a MA thing. I live in the south and everyone I know who has a drop of Cherokee blood in them are proud of that fact. They will tell you, I’m 1/12 or 1/36 or whatever Cherokee.
But anyway, is there any evidence Warren received preferential treatment by sharing this information? Or is he just accusing her of trying (which is incredibly lame to keep beating this death).
But hey, anything to make the guy look bad.
slag
@Brachiator:
I know this is hard for you to believe, but a lot of people who read this blog are most likely “voters”. So, try to remember that when you go all meta and pronounce your views on how something doesn’t matter because “voters” won’t care. Instead, maybe just state what you really mean when you say such things: that YOU don’t care.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Amir Khalid:
Yes. And it’d be really nice if local Boston media outlets would repeat this fact a little more often.
Brown’s ploy is not only openly racist, it’s also based on a false premise. Affirmative Action hasn’t worked the way he implies since the days of disco and bell bottoms (if it ever did at all).
But the ‘minorities get stuff for free’ trope has traction here, since it provides blue collar whites with an easy excuse for why they’re not doing as well as they think they should be.
Another Halocene Human
@rb:
Dude. Duuuuuude. You’re going about this all wrong. It’s not that ancestral traits are preserved generation after generation. It’s that as portions of the human population became separated by distance, genetic drift occurred.
Those genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs are the result of genetic drift.
Evolution. We haz it.
rb
@Mnemosyne: You claimed that there is no test for ancestry
No, I did not. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
@Mnemosyne: black (aka “African”)
Black is not AKA “African.” That is my point. We all have black ancestors. Some of us do not have relatively recent African familial descent.
and claiming that he’s a liar.
No, I did not. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Again, not sure what’s got you so riled up today, but you’re battling straw men.
rb
@Another Halocene Human: It’s that as portions of the human population became separated by distance, genetic drift occurred.
This is what I meant by coherent, but yes, agreed.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@slag: The only “evidence” of anything in that article is that nobody living involved, Warren included, knows anything at all about the ethnic makeup of her ancestry. I feel for her. This probably touches on a lot of ugly family issues that she doesn’t want to have to hash out in public.
She should get tested for her own peace of mind, and to find out who in the family is a goddamned liar and who isn’t. I did not expect to find out what I did when I got tested, but I’m not sorry I did it.
hep kitty
@SatanicPanic:
Holy crap, it’s the 90’s again?. Please don’t make me go through Monicagate all over again.
slag
@Forum Transmitted Disease: The point is that you made an unfounded claim. The only evidence (even if it isn’t in the form of a genetic test) we have is to the contrary of your unfounded claim. Your own personal experience isn’t evidence of anything to do with Ms. Warren. That’s all I’m saying.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: After all, towing ponies is what the stupid truck was originally for.
Brachiator
@Frankensteinbeck:
And so? Again, my question is, will their behavior have any impact on the vote?
At this point, in late September, it is pointless to win the morality derby if Warren can win votes or change people’s minds. I am very glad to see that she may have risen in the polls. I would be glad to see her win.
And if MA assholes can be so easily courted, the Democrats may need to become assholes, too, if they can’t find a better way to win.
@slag:
You misunderstood me. I was clearly asking about MA voters.
And I did not simply declare that voters won’t care. I specifically asked whether the obnoxious behavior was moving MA voters toward Warren and away from Brown.
hep kitty
I like it that Brown got teabag all over him.
gbear
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Really? Never knew that. I’m an Alan born into a Presbyterian household with 3/4 German heritage. I never knew my name is the Jewish spelling.
Anna
She put it on a job application. That is a big deal, when Affirmative Action gives minorities preference.
rb
You can also look for the presence of certain genes that occur more frequently according to ancestry. There definitely are statistical differences, just look at some recent epidemiology. Or literature on genetic disease.
Yes, I am very familiar with this literature, as well as its limitations. My contention is very simple: “black” is not a thing obtainable by genetic testing. For instance: many individuals have substantial relatively recent African ancestry – as well as, obviously, ancestors who would identify as ‘black’ in the contemporary sense – and would nevertheless get a “clearly, she is not” from Scotty Brown (which makes him an asshole). No doubt many of these individuals would agree that they are not black (thereby making them not black), while disagreeing with his outrageous presumption in making the “call.”
ericblair
@hep kitty:
I’m thinking it’s a modified birtherism. In both Obama’s case and hers, there’s this fig leaf easily-refuted argument about why it matters, but to your wingnuts I don’t think that’s the real issue. Authoritarians care about purity, and their big problem is that Obama and Warren are Not Who They Purport to Be! Their Lineage is False! Most other people don’t give a shit about this purity/lineage stuff, but they sure seem to.
As an outsider, I thought Brown was a lightweight and an idiot, but didn’t realize he’s that big of an asshole. Guess this campaign cleared that right up.
Villago Delenda Est
@gbear:
The Jewish spelling is “Alan-oy” or “Alan-David” or “Alan-not-goyim”.
Or something like that.
“Alan-eh” would indicate Canadian ancestry.
Joel
@Forum Transmitted Disease: You keep harping on this, and that might be the dumbest thing you’ve said on the subject of Massachusetts yet.
Anatoliĭ Lъudьvigovich Bzyp (Mumphrey, et al.)
An open letter to ABL:
Aw, man, why do you always have to be playing the race card? I mean, just because this is plainly racist, that doesn’t mean you have to get all racial about it, does it? To quote my favorite television character of all time, Mordecai the Blue Jay, “Dude, not cool!”
Now, I know you “people of color”, or whatever cute name you’ve given yourself this week, think that you’re qualified to opine on the touchy matter of race. But let’s face the ugly truth here: You are not white. O.K.? What part of that do you not understand? We white people will helpfully let you know when something is really racist, and when we do, then you may get all lathered up over it, though we’d really rather you just let these things go. Trust me, they just aren’t that big a deal, not in this post-racial society. But, needless to say, most of the time when you overreact to these “slights”, it’ll only be a little good-natured fun, and I’d really like it if you people would defer to us on this. Trust me. We know. Most of the time when you think something is “racist”, it’s just you people getting your little heads all in a whirl over nothing. There aren’t any more lynchings, right? So everything’s cool. You can let this race shit go now. We’ve taken care of it (and let me tell you, we didn’t have to do it; we went to a lot of trouble to stop lynching you and to give you “special rights” like the right to vote just like you were as grown up as we are), and we’ll thank you not to worry about it any further.
Because, really, what this comes down to is respect. We whites don’t ask a lot of you. We never have. We do ask, though, that you respect our feelings by not playing the race card all the time. It makes us feel bad, and we don’t like that. You wouldn’t like it either if we just blithely disregarded your feelings about something that really hits all your sore spots, but you never have to worry about that, because we whites would never do anything like that.
And this is also a question of our civil rights, (by which I mean, those of white people, not those of Americans as a whole). You infringe upon my right to free speech when you call me a racist when I say something witty about you minorities or tell a joke about how funny you blacks are or note how sweet and childlike you are. My rights are important to me, no less than yours are to you, I’m sure. So I ask you, in closing, to put down the race card once and for all. We’ll all feel so much better about it, especially we white folks, and let’s be blunt here, we’re the ones who really matter here. Thank you in advance for your compliance in this matter.
Thank you,
A totally post-racial white guy
Villago Delenda Est
@Anatoliĭ Lъudьvigovich Bzyp (Mumphrey, et al.):
Respect is earned. You’ve done nothing to earn it. Pointing at your skin and saying “respect the white” doesn’t cut it.
Oh, wait, if you go DEEP into the grey, there’s a hint, heavens to Poe, that this is your point.
The thing is, this post could have come directly from the warped minds of any of the fucktards at NRO online, and have been intended to be taken in all seriousness.
jenn
@Villago Delenda Est: Recalibrate the Snark-o-Meter!
ETA – looks like its been recalibrated already! :~)
Villago Delenda Est
@jenn:
Yeah, I figured that out. Which is why I immediately edited to include a Poe’s Law reference.
Now, if we can get ABL to bow down before my white maleness, we’ll be on the right track.
cckids
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
It might not be anyone still living who’s “lying”. The stories may come from far enough back, made up by someone who thought it was romantic or more interesting, & just kept getting passed down.
In my family, we were told forever that our mother’s side was Irish -green, green, green. Found out 5 years ago, when an uncle did geneological research, that the “old country” they came from was Italy, and they were Jewish.
They did marry Irish wives in 2 different generations, though, so there is that. My grandfather could never accept either the Italian or Jewish parts. Of course, he was close to 90, so wasn’t interested in changing his personal history.
Frankensteinbeck
@Brachiator:
My point was that there is a constituency and assholes are the specific constituency. To address your ‘will this make a difference’ question… well, it will motivate his base voters a little, but I doubt it will flip any voters to him that he didn’t already have. You’re right there.
blingee
@Mnemosyne: Hehe, you said “PENIS”.
peggy
@I Am Mitt’s Smirk (né Studly Pantload, t.e.u.u.):
At the Brown-Warren debate, the first question was about character and Brown attacked Warren on the ancestry issue. She responded that since her mother was part Cherokee and Delaware, her father’s family said no to the marriage.
I think her response helped her and softened the Harvard professor picture that Brown is trying to paint. I think the ad which repeats the story of her parent’s elopement and then ties it into how this is a story about families and she is fighting for middle class families is effective.
priscianusjr
peggy
@ericblair:
Brown is saying,”prove you never got any affirmative action goodies.”
And- open up all of your Harvard personnel files to us Republicans so we can troll through them for something embarrassing. If you don’t it’s proof you’re a liar.
The Boston Herald- a dying right wing daily has been pushing this with all it’s might for months and will keep it up til Election Day.
priscianusjr
@Anatoliĭ Lъudьvigovich Bzyp (Mumphrey, et al.):
priscianusjr
@Villago Delenda Est:
Kay S
This reminds me of the Brooks Brothers ” riot ” in 2000.
Anatoliĭ Lъudьvigovich Bzyp (Mumphrey, et al.)
@cckids:
Sometimes the surprises you learn about are just tales. My great grandfather was one of those small town pillar of the community types. He was a doctor, and a director of the bank, and he owned a stake in the town water company and the dairy in that part of the county. He was a Quaker. William Chester Baker, M.D. He died long before I was born, but I always heard about him as this upright, respectable kind of guy. But my uncle, who was a joker, always said that he was an illegitimate baby and that my great great grandmother got knocked up by an Irishman named O’Brien who showed up in Parkesburg, Pennsylvania, and then skipped town before the baby was born. I don’t really think it’s true, but I kind of choose to believe it because it’s so funny, and out of character for my family.
Brachiator
@Anatoliĭ Lъudьvigovich Bzyp (Mumphrey, et al.):
And sometimes the tales not told are both amazing and true.
My former landlady lived into her 90s and had come to California by herself as a young woman, worked as a nurse during WWII. Her children had a need to think of her as a sweet old granny, and she largely obliged them.
But the life she led before she settled down and married was often wild and decidely bohemian. I helped for a time with her financial matters and found that people will tell things to their doctor and to their tax guy that they wouldn’t tell their own family. And old ladies outlive most of their friends, especially male friends.
Heck, I have friends who deny, disavow and suppress details of their early lives. They want to be respectable, or they don’t won’t to have to admit to their kids some of the stuff they may have done when younger. It’s quite funny to see sometimes, especially when people give every indication of believing their own revised life stories.
I wonder if any of this is harder to pull off in the days of Facebook, and an Internet which, like rock and roll, never forgets.
Ms. D. Ranged in AZ
@rb:
:) Actually I am too! My family did our genealogy back to 1066 and on both my Mother’s and Father’s side we’re all Northern European–basically German, English, Irish, Dutch and Norman (whatever they were considered, French????). Before that the use of last names for commoners was not common (punny ha!) and it becomes much harder, if not impossible. That’s when I resorted to DNA. Of course, as a woman they could only do mitochondrial lineage. I would need a male in the family to get the other (what’s it called? Y-DNA?).
Brachiator
@Ms. D. Ranged in AZ:
For most people, this would be extremely unlikely, or someone used a lot of imagination to fill in the gaps. 1066 is before the Domesday Book. I am not sure what records would exist to corroborate much of anything.
And at a certain point, even Northern European doesn’t mean very much. The Norman were offshoots of the Vikings who settled in and married with the French before jetting over to England.
Pre Roman Britain contained all kinds of people, and who knows who the Romans dragged along as part of their nation building.
It’s more of a fun jumble than most people realize.