In another bit of Republican election-year ineptitude, apparently some jackass in the Senate decided it was good policy and politics to put a hold on annual cost of living adjustments for disabled vets:
In what appears to be an election-year stunt that quickly backfired, an unidentified Republican senator on Thursday briefly blocked disabled veterans and their survivors from getting a cost-of-living adjustment to their benefits, according to Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.), chairman of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee.
The Cost of Living Allowance (COLA) increase for Department of Veterans Affairs benefits, which typically passes the House and Senate without opposition, was cleared by Senate Democrats but placed on a “secret hold” Thursday by an unidentified Republican senator, Murray says.
Under Senate rules, a single senator is allowed to anonymously keep a bill from advancing toward a vote with what is called a “secret hold.” The senator in this case has not been identified.
The measure, HR 4114, which passed the House on July 9, provides a 1.9 percent increase in disability benefits for veterans and surviving spouses, matching the planned increase in Social Security benefits.
In a statement Thursday, Sen. Murray said the effort to block the bill was “stunning. Particularly because we still don’t have any indication why someone would block a cost-of-living adjustment for veterans and their surviving spouses, many of whom are struggling to make ends meet.”
If I had to guess, my three choices would be DeMint, Coburn, and Paul as the most likely.
Comrade Dread
I’d go with Rand Paul.
Sounds like something a libertarian would oppose just for the sake of being a dick and ‘standing on principles’.
succubus
why did we bother giving these people survival training if they’re not going to use it on the streets here? buck up, soldiers, and pull yourselves up by your combat boot straps. what’s that? an IED took off your legs? well we taught you to crawl through those tire thingies, didn’t we?
and sadly, many of them will probably still vote for the gop.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
But we SUPPORT THE TROOPS!!!!!
Until we don’t. Which is usually when we’re called upon to do anything beyond buying a Chinese-made magnetic sticker for our cars.
Assholes.
beltane
I’ll go with DeMint, because he really is that stupid.
waratah
I hope the cowards name is leaked.
Carnacki
Fuck em . Just fuck every damn one of those Republican fuckers
jibeaux
Duh, the Democrats were clearly trying to get something to go to an up or down vote on something. That kind of uppityness cannot go unchallenged.
Violet
How can this sort of action be done by someone in secret? Actions by our elected officials, when they impact policy decisions and things that are part of their jobs, should be public record. How the hell do they have the ability to keep that kind of thing a secret? If there’s a hold, it should be public record as to who put the hold and when.
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
Ok. But there are a lot of republican controlled and republican sponsored veterans groups who would mobilize to blame this on the democrats. So how is this a stupid act?
JPL
MSM will be all over this so the coward who put the hold on the bill will relent.
hahahaha
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Violet:
Senate Rules. What I don’t know off the top of my head is the origin of this particular rule. Ye Olde Constitution permits the Senate to make it’s own procedural rules.
patroclus
In 1944, the G.I. Bill of Rights, a far more comprehensive piece of legislation, was introduced in January and was enacted into law in June. That was because Democrats and Republicans were falling all over themselves to rush it through, but Sam Rayburn insisted that it go through the regular process, with hearings and stuff. Sure, it was election year politics and it meant that FDR would have a legislative accomplishment to brag about, but the Republicans didn’t put “holds” on and there were no filibusters.
Now, a mere cost of living adjustment gets introduced in January, the House passes it in June and the lying slimy Republicans deliberately delay its passage because they refuse to allow anything at all to pass during an election year.
Words cannot express how despicable these Republicans are.
Mike in NC
Another vote for JimBob Demented of SC.
Violet
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: That is fucking messed up. It’s their fucking job. They work for us. Unless there’s some national security reason why we can’t check their work, everything they do should be public record. And certainly holds on bills should be a matter of public record.
Fucking Senate. Assholes.
J R in WV
What a combination: The best of Modern Conservatism!
Stupid AND Evil!
David Hunt
@Violet:
Welcome to news of the World’s Worst Deliberative Body.
Southern Beale
Anyone in Wisconsin here? I just heard that they’re changing the driver’s license procedure, they’re processing DL’s out of state? So now when you go to the DMV instead of getting your ID/DL the same day you have to wait two weeks?
Anyone else hear this? That is fucking insane.
Violet
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace:
They can try, but the Republicans are on record as being willing to hold the country hostage (debt ceiling) to make Obama fail. They have a history of it, so their credibility is somewhat shaky. Add to it that the Republicans/Romney are tanking in the polls, and the attitude toward them in public is “they suck” and “they lie,” the attempt to pin this on the Dems is not going to be as easy as they think. Plus, the Dems have all signed off on it, so it has to be a Republican. That kind of thing is checkable and an easily debunked lie. See: media printing this story.
raven
@patroclus: LBJ signed the Veterans Readjustment Benefits Act of 1966 under duress and it did not really provide decent benefits until 1972. I literally got the same dollar amount in 1969 that my dad got in 1949.
bcinaz
My only guess is Rand Paul. He really begs the larger question; What is wrong with Kentucky?
ding dong
Coburn is my guess. Second guess Paul. Not demint.
feebog
Just another stupid f#^*@g senate rule that Reid needs to toss out the door come January. If we retain the Senate, and it is looking better every day, we need to see wholesale reform of these idiotic rules.
DPS
If these disabled veterans had taken had taken personal responsibility for their lives and gotten out of the way of the bullets and explosions and so forth, they wouldn’t be stuck in a culture of dependency.
The Bobs
I’d go with Jon Kyl. He certainly should be on the list of suspects.
Ben Franklin
This is typical. Republicans only support the Troops when they’re on active duty. In fact, they hate birth control because they need fresh bodies for their wars of choice. Cannon fodder is the objective. Veterans can go fish.
amk
Why are the rethugs such cowardly assholes, cole ? Are bothsidesdoit also too ?
Violet
@DPS: Yes, yes, they even think they deserve housing and food. Why can’t they sleep on the streets along with so many of their buddies? They’re too good for concrete?
Nina
Kyl’s retiring, he doesn’t have to care anymore about being elected so he can just shout ‘screw you’ to the world.
Publius39
I would go with Rand Paul too. He’s craven and cowardly enough to do something like this and think that it makes sense in the long run.
MikeBoyScout
I’m sure the proven leaders of the Republican party, Gekko/Galt, will get right in this because only yesterday Slick Willard was telling Vets how very concerned and compassionate he is for them.
/snarl
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
Rand Paul. I’d bet gold-backed dollars on that one.
But I thought the ‘secret hold’ rule was gone (or at least reformed to no longer be anonymous), under Harry Reid. Did it come back, or did it never go away?
tamied
@feebog: I agree. These rules are enabling the worst of the worst behaviour of these assholes.
patroclus
@raven: My Dad served in WWII in North Africa and Italy and went to school on the GI Bill, getting a Masters and PhD. This weekend, after 60 years of living in our house, he and my Mom are moving to an assisted living facility, which they can pay for only because of a Veteran’s benefit. The Romney idea that my father is some kind of 47% parasitic moocher who didn’t (and won’t) take responsibility for his life is utterly nauseating. Romney and whichever Senator is holding up the disabled vets COLA are utter scum.
J. Michael Neal
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: There isn’t anything official in the Senate rules about holds. They’re just a description for a Senator using a couple of different official procedures.
The Senate operates on the principle of unanimous consent. The conduct of ordinary business requires the assent of every Senator in the chamber. If any of them deny it, conducting that piece of business (whether it be moving a bill to the floor; taking a vote; or deciding to go have lunch) becomes a real pain in the ass. It can be done, but it takes time and effort. One thing a “hold” means is that the Senator in question plans to deny unanimous consent.
The other thing it means is that the Senator intends to attempt a filibuster. Whether he’d get the rest of his party to go along with it is a big unknown there. However, even if it fails it still clogs up the system with procedures and time wasting requirements.
So the reason holds can be secret is because the Senator hasn’t actually done anything yet. All that’s happened is that he has said that he *will* do something if the leadership attempts a particular action. A denial of unanimous consent usually does not reveal the identity of the holder since it’s typically done on a voice vote. If you start requiring officially recorded votes on requests for unanimous consent, then that helps to grind everything to a halt, so it’s a trade-off.
The Senate works under really fucked up rules.
penpen
When did Republicans become so bad at politics???
Violet
Is there any way to find out who did it? Does someone know?
Maybe it could be turned into a campaign ad in in competitive Senate seats:
“An unknown Republican Senator put a secret hold on a bill to keep disabled vets from getting a cost-of-living adjustment on their benefits. These brave men and women gave their bodies and in some cases their lives for our country and Republicans don’t want to help them now. Which Senator was it? Was it you, Senator [name of Senator in competitive race]? Are you the one who wants veterans and their families to go without?”
Culture of Truth
It was Senator Tuttle
comrade scott's agenda of rage
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_hold
It references the 2011 vote to abolish secret holds. More details on that:
http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/resolution-to-end-secret-holds-overwhelmingly-passes-the-senate
Southern Beale
Okay just heard that WI supreme court has declined to hear a challenge to the voter ID law which is actually good news because it means injunctions against the law will remain in place for the November election. So in short, WI voter ID law is kaput for now.
Forum Transmitted Disease
More than getting rid of the filibuster (I think that’s a “must do” for the next Senate session) this “secret hold” shit has got to go. For good.
Villago Delenda Est
All three suspects are rancid sacks of shit.
Fuck ’em all. With a supercharged rusted chainsaw.
J. Michael Neal
@Villago Delenda Est: I want to state up front that I’m not opposed to this idea, but I am curious as to why it matters that the chain saw is rusty. I mean, even if it’s not turned on (and what the hell is the fun of that?) I just don’t think tetanus is high on the list of dangers.
Well, okay, maybe it’s second on the list, but are we really going to get that far?
Jado
It’s a secret hold, so EVERY ONE of the Republican Senators is responsible. The Dems should accuse every one of the Republican Senators individually. Let them deny it. On television. Repeatedly.
I bet some of them cop to it, thinking they can spin it around.
The Tragically Flip
Senate rules do not mention secret holds. Fucking bipartisan comity bullshit civility creates this mechanism out of the thin air that Senators breathe.
A Republican goes to McConnell and says I want a secret hold on the bill. McConnell goes to Reid and tells him there’s a secret hold on the bill. Reid obeys this unwritten tradition and does not attempt to move the bill forward.
The secret hold is easily revealed by simply putting the bill for the next step in its progress and waiting to see who actually stands up and objects, thus denying unanimous consent.
Yes, the Republicans are fuckers, but the Democratic unwillingness to just end the filibuster today via the nuclear option is why this bullshit continues. It’s pure enablement. Not because they like what the Republicans do with the filibuster per se, but because they like having the option around for their own prima donna fits.
RaflW
So there’s this dude in MN, Michael Brodkorb. Kinda an ass really. Used to have a web site called MN Democrats Exposed. You get the idea.
Hes a GOP operative (consultant) now. Even he thinks the “polls are biased when we don’t like them” meme is old and tired and dumb.
Emphasis added.
Brodkob’s still an ass. But the polling boo-hoo is clearly out of control.
Nerull
@Southern Beale: That has been the case for a while now.
quannlace
I’m with Coburn. He declared the vet’s job bill as a ‘political stunt.”
But really, what were they hoping to accomplish with this? That somehow Democrats would be blamed?
Villago Delenda Est
@RaflW:
The polling boo-hoo is all setup for explaining away the shellacking that the Rethugs are going to take on November 6 as “voter fraud”, “ACORN”, “our candidates failed Conservativsm”, etc.
They’re getting the Partei line out there more than a full month ahead of time, because it’s going to be brutal and decisive. The “Reagan Revolution” is officially over.
Dennis SGMM
@The Tragically Flip:
I can’t see ending the filibuster because we will need it some day. I can see lowering the number of votes needed to invoke cloture.
Secret holds are double-distilled bullshit. Either they have the courage of their convictions or they don’t. This is the U.S. Senate, not some fucking Star Chamber.
Bubblegum Tate
I’m betting it’s Inhofe.
Geoduck
@quannlace:
Very possibly, if the news reports just said the bill was “held up in the Senate”. Which the Democrats control..
General Stuck
@JPL:
The nutters already have relented, by punting that they don’t know what happened, implying it wasn’t them. But the hold didn’t come off until the congress went into recess. You can use your imagination as to Romney using this before the election. Cause by not allowing the vote, putting it off, means there is a good chance it doesn’t get done in time to provide the COLA early next year.
catclub
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage: It still si the vast stupidity of senate comity.
I seem to remember when a democratic senator tried to put one of those holds on FISA re-authorization/vast wiretapping bill.
Harry Reid just ignored it. Reason? That single senator did not have 40 others who would back him up.
If Harry Reid is running the senate, what is to stop him from just forgetting one of those secret holds?
What is the secret holder going to do? Yell that he had a secret hold on that bill?
really makes you want to go to a parliamentary system.
Soonergrunt
According to the DAV, it was Richard Burr, who claims to have removed his block because his “concerns were addressed”.
Of course, Congress supposedly won’t be back in session until a couple of days before the expiration date on the issue, because Eric Cantor has scheduled House vacation until after the election. If they don’t get the bill passed, disabled Vets won’t get their adjustments for December until they are paid in for January’s disbursement.
EDIT–it is still unknown which Republican initiated the hold. Senator Burr only stated that the issue had been resolved, not that it was his issue or his hold.
FlipYrWhig
@RaflW: That guy’s name is damn close to being a palindrome.
Maude
@Culture of Truth:
That makes sense. Trying to get the vet vote for Romney.
aimai
@Violet:
I agree. I don’t understand what “punishment” other than censure would prevent every Democratric Senator from pointing the finger of blame at the Republicans –en masse if they don’t actually know who the Senator is. In fact, that’s what I think they should do. They should hold a press conference and say that the house Minority Leader has informed us that there is a “secret hold” and since he can’t, or won’t, admit who in his party is the culprit the entire party is to blame. From now on the phrase “secret hold” will not be used to describe Senate Affairs. If a party allows a single member to hold up the Nation’s business we are going to describe it and talk about it for what it is: a Party decision.
aimai
curiousleo
According to the Daily Beast article linked, Rand’s spokesperson went on record “flatly denying” that it was them. Given he’s the most likely candidate and surely they know that, I’m almost inclined to believe the denial.
Still think somebody ought to name names.
Spatula
Above all, the sickest thing here is that the anonymous single senator hold rule is allowed to exist.
“Democracy” in action.
KG
@penpen: some time around 2006, I think.
Punchy
I love the cowardliness of it all. Not a “I FUCKIN STAND ON PRINCIPLE!” Republican, but instead a “I’m going to silently monkey-wrench this whole thing”.
Chickenshit too scared to be known, eh? What a fucking douchebag.
Culture of Truth
apologies to Leonard Cohen…
I heard there was a secret hold
A Senator placed, or so I’m told
But you’ll never really know who placed it
Will ya
The hold is placed
The bill is stalled
We can wait until Saint Matthew is called
With a baffled public singing halleluja
Halleluja
Halleluja
The Tragically Flip
@Dennis SGMM:
There’s no reason to keep it because if it was ever useful for progressives, Republicans will go nuclear and end it to do what they want. That’s the lesson of 2005. They were willing to go nuclear over some district court judicial nominees. What makes you think that if they have a bill to repeal Social Security passed in the House, with a President willing to sign it, that they will let piddling Senate rules stop them?
It’s nothing but a gentlemen’s agreement and they’re not gentlemen. It will never be there for you when you really need it.
Dennis SGMM
@Bubblegum Tate:
Good guess! Inhofe has demonstrated more than sufficient stupidity and malice to be a likely suspect.
Soonergrunt
@Geoduck: That’s precisely what they were aiming at. The number of things that Republicans have obstructed that conservatives hold Dems responsible for because Dems have the majority in the Senate is pretty much everything. It’s like a script with them.
“Well, if Harry Reid and the Senate Democrats really cared about XYZ, they’d have voted on it.”
MikeJ
@General Stuck:
Just yesterday Romney was saying sequestration hurts vets. This is Republican coördination to muddy the issue, using veterans as pawns.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Bubblegum Tate: The word I have heard is that it’s Rand. And that he’s done this to every single Senate bill for months, so that the chamber can’t pass anything out for Obama to sign.
General Stuck
The “secret” part of the secret hold is what needs to go. But both parties have liked having that quiver in their arrow for special occasions of obstruction that is anonymous and consequence free. “Holds” are just another form of filibuster that each senator has the traditional power to invoke by an objection, either to get some concessions from a bill, or to force a cloture vote to over ride their “pocket filibuster”. This rarely happens however, with the chickenshits not willing to stick their necks out individually, but rather to hide in the crowd of their caucus, objecting as a block.
FlipYrWhig
@catclub: As with most of the Senate’s perks and quirks, Democrats grudgingly abide by them when they’re in the majority because they want Republicans to grudgingly abide by them when _they’re_ in the majority. And individual senators have proven quite unwilling to cede their special senatorial superpowers — even usually commendable people like Russ Feingold. So the amount of support for changing the rules tends to be minimal. Senators like being senators and they like being able to do inexplicable and unreasonable things, and they have little incentive to change.
BTW, whenever people get aggravated about the ever-expanding limits of executive branch power, they should think about what legislative power looks like. It looks like this.
The Tragically Flip
@catclub:
Now you’re asking the right question. Reid could do that and there’s no Senate rule against it. The anonymous coward would have to choose either to step forward into the light and object to the bill for the record, or remain silent and it will pass.
Why doesn’t he? Because Mitch will give him sour looks and Inhofe won’t invite him to the next Christmas party? Or because his own caucus will throw him out of his leadership job because they too don’t want to see the comfy system of anonymously holding up the business of the nation ended?
That quip about “Republicans are the opposition, the Senate is the enemy” comes to mind.
peach flavored shampoo
Reading thru the comments, it seems that of all 100 Senators, seemingly everyone is fingering one of the 2 craptastics from OK. Can we just give OK back to the Indians (Choctaw!) and be done with these asshole Sens?
shortstop
Read those DAV comments if you want to be depressed.
Maude
@Soonergrunt:
Obama didn’t sign the bill!
FlipYrWhig
Basically, senators quite like having a range of tools with which to get things done. In fact they like that much, much more than they like actually getting things done.
J. Michael Neal
@The Tragically Flip:
As I said, the reason is None of the Above. The main reason Harry Reid doesn’t just walk over holds when they’re placed is because he wants to get something done and the procedures for overcoming denials of unanimous consent take a metric fuckton of time.
John
OT, but we have GOT to think about the House too. I’m not so worried about the Senate-I think Brown and Akin are going down like a lead zeppelin.
But Allen West is one of the nuttiest Representatives. Dude was kicked out of the Army for abusing an Iraqi detainee and says the most ridiculous shit. For the love of God please donate to Patrick Murphy if you can and help me get a Representative that’s not a nutter. https://www.patrickmurphy2012.com/
FlipYrWhig
@The Tragically Flip: In Monopoly, there’s the “Get Out of Jail Free” card. It’s obviously stupid. Such a thing should never have been invented. But you’re already partway through the game, and you have one. Do you give it up, on principle, for nothing? Or do you hang onto it in case you need it due to some other stupid turn of events?
The Bobs
@J R in WV: I’d say stupid, evil and craven. The Republican trifecta.
General Stuck
He can’t ignore it. But he can call the senate back into session and force the GOP and its secret asshole to go on record with a cloture vote, toward passing this bill that has already been passed by the House. And I expect Harry to do just that if Romney or repubs try to use this to bash Obama for not taking care of the troops. Despicable shit by the republicans, even for them.
Stooleo
OT. Sad news. Wingnut kills self and family due to fear of Obama winning a second term.
The Tragically Flip
@J. Michael Neal:
But in this case he doesn’t have to actually do cloture. He just needs to force the anonymous coward to object publicly. That doesn’t take a metric fuckton of time. Public outrage will most likely do the rest.
Villago Delenda Est
@Maude:
Veterans who vote for Rmoney are buddy fuckers.
To hell with them.
Jennifer
RE: the “blame it on the Dems” strategy so many seem concerned about: the Dems polled their caucus before the recess and none of them had a hold on the bill.
Of course, that in and of itself wouldn’t stop the Republicans from trying to lie about it, ala “Obama did away with the work requirement for welfare.” Truth doesn’t mean much, if anything, to these folks.
But I’m with Violet – if every Dem challenger in a Senate race puts up an ad asking if his or her opponent is responsible for shitting on veterans and their families, or flat-out suggesting that they’re responsible, or even tarring the GOP Senate caucus as a whole with the misdeed, the Republicans themselves will tell us who did it. No honor among thieves and all that.
PeakVT
The Senate should just adopt the House’s rule-based operations and be done with all of the obstruction.
Seanly
@Southern Beale:
Idaho does something similar. You get all your paperwork done in the DMV & are given a hard paper temporary license. All the licenses are printed at a offsite facility for the entire state and mailed. It can take up to 2 weeks to arrive, but my wife & I got ours in about 4 days. I think the long delay in Idaho is for all the places not part of Boise.
I think one of the issues with the post-9/11 IDs is that all of the holograms & goo-gahs on the cards make it difficult for less populated/poorer states to have multiple printing machines at each DMV location. But that’s just my guess.
J. Michael Neal
@The Tragically Flip: Actually, it does take a bunch of time if you want the guy on the record. If all you want is a voice vote in which some unnamed Senator denies unanimous consent, that can happen pretty quickly but doesn’t do much good.
When dealing with oddities in the Senate, it’s always best to make your first assumption as to why someone does or doesn’t do something is that it’s because the Senate rules are designed to make sure anything that happens is going to happen really slowly.
Amir Khalid
Are you sure that’s ineptitude? Sounds more like malice to me.
FlipYrWhig
@The Tragically Flip: That makes some sense as a way to handle this particular issue, but it would have repercussions beyond the present moment, quite likely making all future Senate business with a Democratic majority an even more painful procedural slog. “We” need to change all kinds of rules that apply to how the Senate operates, but we’re not senators, and they have shown very little willingness to undertake sweeping changes for the sake of (ETA) resolving a momentary conflict.
Dennis SGMM
@Villago Delenda Est:
Heartily seconded. I’d guess that most of them are REMF’s and/or the perpetually sodden habitues of American Legion posts.
The Tragically Flip
@FlipYrWhig:
The analogy only works if the card says “Get out of Jail Free unless the other players decide they don’t want you to”
I honestly don’t know how I can make this any clearer; The filibuster is a Marquis de Queensbury type deal. We’re saying we’d like not to lose a fight by being kicked in the nuts, so we won’t kick the opponent in the nuts.
Except we know that the opponent has absolutely no scruples and will certainly kick us in the nuts the moment it is advantageous to do so. In fact, they already threatened to do so in 2005, and in order to avoid it, we simply caved in completely so they didn’t need to anymore. It’s not even theoretical, it already happened.
Juju
@Mike in NC: I think it could be Burr. He is also just that stupid.
artem1s
@Southern Beale:
Colorado does this. I thought it was craz. Can’t people would put up with standing in line for hours and then being told they won’t have their license for 2 weeks.
Of course lazy 47% government workers get blamed for it.
jibeaux
@FlipYrWhig: I think your first sentence is missing a “not.”
1badbaba3
It’s either Sessions or Palpatine.
FlipYrWhig
@The Tragically Flip: You’re clear to me, but we’re not the “we” in question. I don’t know about you, but I’m not a senator. Senators have shown no willingness to give up the special powers senators have, even good-guy senators. The current state of affairs is bad for liberalism, bad for Democrats, and bad for governance in general. But it’s not all bad for senators qua senators, and that’s why it persists.
The Tragically Flip
@FlipYrWhig:
Yes, that’s the traditional risk. But how much do Democrats really have to fear from increased Republican obstructionism? What more can they delay and obstruct that they’re not already doing? They cranked the obstruction knob to 11 back in 2009.
So that can’t be what stops Reid. That’s why I think it has to be fear of his own caucus. Ending the filibuster or even doing away with anonymous holds diminishes their power too.
raven
@Dennis SGMM: There we go with that remf shit again. My experience is there are as many stupid ass motherfucking grunts as any other mos.
johnny driftless zone
@Southern Beale:Just renewed my DL here in wisc. It must be true as I had to wait about 2 weeks before I got my new one in the mail. However, the DMV person gave me a paper temp that had the new photo on it to use in the intreim. He said it could be used as id to vote.
Dunno if thats true, and dunno why it takes 2 weeks, but with the hands of the kochs so far up walker’s arse, one wonders…
Dennis SGMM
@raven:
True that. I was, as you know, Navy. We put the hopelessly stupid ones on permanent barracks detail and forgot about them.
MikeJ
@artem1s: Washington does it too. I never really thought it was a problem. I had legal ID the day I walked out, a paper printed copy of my license that looked exactly like what the laminated colour version looked like when I got it a few days later in the mail.
celticdragonchick
@Mike in NC:
Jim Demint for sure. He loves to pull this kind of shit with secret holds on virtually every bill.
JPL
Can Reid call the Senate back into session?
raven
@Dennis SGMM: Indeed
FlipYrWhig
@jibeaux: Touché. They like perks that could in theory be used to do things, which is why they would say they don’t want to give them up. But it’s always future and future-conditional tense, like, “But what if someday the Republicans want to throw all public librarians into a vat of acid, and the filibuster is the only thing that can stop them? Bet you’d be sorry we got rid of it then!”
FlipYrWhig
@The Tragically Flip:
I don’t know if I’d say “fear,” but I think we’re basically saying the same thing now. Senators don’t like giving up the things that only senators can do.
piratedan
Kyl is the perfect culprit, he’s voted against anything and everything in the past in conjunction with party doctrine, he’s retiring, he’s well acquainted with the secret hold process (he’s the guy on C-Span forever denying Obama’s judicial and legislative appointments regardless of the committee approval votes). If word did get out, no one cares because everyone can distance themselves from him with little collateral damage. He’s a virtual nonenety to the rest of the country.
Maude
@Dennis SGMM:
A guy I know said he was a Navy medic. he’s way too stupid for that. Also said he was a part of Black Hawk Down. I didn’t see his name anywhere on those who were in Somalia from beginning to end.
He’ll vote for Romney.
Suffern ACE
@JPL: He can. But the 20 or so members of his caucus who are campaigning for reelection would not be happy.
The Tragically Flip
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, convincing progressive activists and thought leaders is some kind of progress. I still see too many stuck in the delusion that Senate rules are actually a real obstacle to ending the filibuster, or stuck thinking the filibuster might someday save SS or Medicare from the GOP horde. This gives Senators cover to continue this arrangement they have.
I’m not naive enought to think that exposing bullshit as bullshit is sufficient for fixing it. If that were true the Electoral College would have been toast shortly after 2000. But while not sufficient, it is a necessary precondition.
rb
I suspect there’s a nonzero chance that veterans will love this.
raven
@Maude: If he was a squid he was a corpsman not a medic.
General Stuck
@JPL:
He can, but the wingnuts could make a big deal of it that the House in recess, and there are some murky legalisms surrounding such an event. So I don’t think Harry will do that unless the repubs try to pull a fast one to win the election.
The Tragically Flip
@FlipYrWhig:
Hahaha. Yeah. And that bill plays out like this:
GOP Leader: Mr. President, I move to vote on the Patriotic Librarian Acid Bath I Love America Bill of 2016.
Democrats: We object.
GOP Senator: Mr. President, point of order, these objections are unconstitutional because of the well known Jeffersonian principle of SHUT UP STUPID LIBERALS!
President: The objection is upheld. The measure will now move to a vote.
I’m embellishing a bit. But only a bit.
FlipYrWhig
@The Tragically Flip: The happy recent development was the news that the younger, newer Senate Democrats are getting sick of how all the Senate bullshit prevents stuff from happening, because they spent a lot of time and energy and money getting themselves elected to this stupid place and by God can’t they at least TRY to accomplish something? That’s where the cracks are finally starting to show up. Progressives outside the government need to badger their senators about how moving forward on attempting to solve national problems is more important than respecting the mysterious rites of the Senate Temple.
debbie
At this point, does it even matter who got the secret hold? Isn’t it enough to know that it was a Republican, a member of The Party of Tough on National Security?
raven
@General Stuck: Screw it, don’t resolve it, pound it up their butts.
Maude
@raven:
Ah, thanks. He said medic.
raven
@debbie: ding, a winner in aisle 115!
Michael
I don’t think this was an ideology hold. I think it was hardball. Look to a senator in a tight reelection bid that needs a big home state contract announcement from an exec agency. Or one with a quid pro quo due a big donor. They get what they wanted and it never makes the news cycle this deep in a prezzy election.
M
Richard
There is nothing more vile and undemocratic than the anonymous hold. No one Senator should have that kind of power.
PaulW
As God is Our Witness, we need to file a court order to confirm “secret holds” are unconstitutional. It’s a damn legislative veto, in violation of bicamerialism as defined in Article I, and it’s got to f-cking go!
Robert Sneddon
@Seanly: Since licenses are “proof of ID” in the US they are printed at a few secure sites where the machines and the various security features like holograms etc. can be centrally controlled. Imagine how much a badly-paid clerk at a county office could earn knocking out “spare” IDs for check-kiters, petty criminals and such if they could get hold of the materials and the printing gear.
It’s a bit like why each county doesn’t have a Mint or a small office to print Federal banknotes on demand.
MikeJ
@PaulW: As much as I dislike holds, that is a stupid argument. The congress is allowed to make its own rules and the courts, not even the supremes, can interfere.
Holds are procedural, not legislative. It’s up to the Senate to fix them. The time to do it is at the start if the next session, but there’s nothing to be done now.
Omnes Omnibus
@johnny driftless zone: Voter ID is not currently necessary in WI. If someone tells you that it is, please report the circumstances to the GAB.
Villago Delenda Est
@Maude:
It’s not at all unusual for wingtards to claim veteran status, combat veteran status, or being SF or a SEAL team member and closer examination shows that if they did serve, it wss behind the lines at best, not at all at worst.
A couple of decades back there was a Rethug running for Congress in Oregon who claimed he was a Korean War vet in the voter’s pamphlet, and it turned out he wasn’t.
He was brought up on charges for lying in the voter’s pamphlet.
Chris
Wait. Sorry to sound stupid, but if it’s anonymous, how do we know it was a Republican?
Cassidy
@Maude: So, be prepared, he’s going to say he was a SEAL, because SEAL corpsman are referred to as SEAL Medics.
@Villago Delenda Est: What’s really funny about that is that everyone was involved in Mogadishu; CAG and Ranger, obviously, AF SOF, regular Army from 10th Mountain and I think even SEALS were part of the rescue convoy with 10th Mountain. I don’t recall them being part of the actual mission, though.
Soonergrunt
Everybody going on about how undemocratic secret holds are, and how we should sue to stop them and so on–
Yes, they are undemocratic, and they violate the principles of open government.
They are also entirely constitutional and not subject to judicial review as Article 1 Section 5 gives each body of the Congress the right to set their own rules.
raven
@Cassidy: Are Seal cross-trained like SF?
and if he says he’s a Seal say, oh, what BUDS class?
Dennis SGMM
@Chris:
From the linked article:
“It cleared every Democrat in the Senate, but there was still a hold on the bill, so obviously it had to be from someone on the Republican side,” said Matt McAlvanah, a spokesman for Senator Murray.
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@General Stuck: Also there are so many bills that are stalled in the Senate, why come back for just this one. We have a system in this country whereby legislating gets done for two months between election day and a new congress and then maybe 2 -3 months of a new congress. Then somehow 20 months before the actual election, most legislating seems to stop for our incredibly long campaign season.
Ruckus
@Dennis SGMM:
I thought they were made deck hands or boiler tenders.
General Stuck
@PaulW:
No court would get involved with a separation of powers case for what is basically a political problem. The constitution gave the senate plenary, or total power to form their own rules, with the theoretical caveat they don’t make a rule that is overtly unconstitutional, which I think would be defined with broad latitude and directly usurping the powers of the other branches of gov. The solution, like all political problems, in the end has the ballot box as the remedy. I think there is movement toward the public paying some more attention, and not giving republicans a glowing report card for what they are up to. We will see how far that goes. Maybe this election.
Southern Beale
Since this is from the Weekly Standard I have no reason to expect foul play. This is supposedly a photo of a Romney-Ryan campaign mailer sent to a home in Virginia, in which we learn the GOP ticket will do more to halt the spread of Lyme Disease in Virginia than Obama-Biden.
A tremendous relief to people in Virginia, I’m sure.
The Tragically Flip
In the past Josh Marshall outed a secret holder by getting enough Senators offices to go on the record denying that they placed the hold. There is only 47 of these fuckers, it could be done by 1 interpid investigative reporter in an afternoon, or a crowdsourced “call your senator and ask them” post.
rlrr
@Southern Beale:
I remember Dan Quayle saying he an George Bush would solve the AIDS crisis back in 1988.
Cassidy
@raven: SEAL’s go through what we all the “Short Course”. It’s the the first part of the 18D SF Medic course, and all of our Spec Ops Medics go through it, i.e: Civil Affairs, Assymetrical Warfare Group, Rangers, and Corpsman who are SEALs or MARSOC. AF medics don’t attend,a s far as I know, and PJ’s do their on thing at the Paramedic School in Lackland and the 18D’s continue on for another year of medical training.
It’s not a regular course for the normal Combat Medics (me) and Corpsman.
JPL
This is OT…but I am so sick of Sunday talk shows
Meet The Ass— Christie
Face The Nation. Christie and Gingrich
This Week Christie and Strickland
They don’t even pretend anymore to be bipartisan
Southern Beale
@rlrr:
AIDs, Lyme Disease … TOTALLY THE SAME THING!!!!
Which president said we’d cure cancer? Was that W? Or Clinton?
PaulW
I think I read in an earlier post about “What if the Senate voted to throw libraries into acid pits” as a reason to have Holds as a weapon of last defense, my answer is this:
If we’ve got a Senate full of morons trying to pass such a law, either we’ve got a saner House to down such a bill on their side or we’ve got a President in position to veto such an insane law. And if all three – Senate, House, President – are all that far wingnut gone, then that means a solid majority of Americans have gone full wingnut as well, and this nation is well and truly screwed anyway.
Remember this: one of the biggest reasons the 112th Congress didn’t pass more laws is because 109 cloture motions (votes to prevent a filibuster from happening or to stop a filibuster in progress) were filed this session, one of the top three sessions of cloture filings EVER. The other top two? The 110th and 111th Congresses. Because of this logjam, the 112th Congress passed the fewest number of laws since the turn of the 20th Century.
And Secret Holds, don’t forget, are responsible for the high number of executive and judicial openings that need to be filled. There’s nothing the House can do about those, and little the President can do (outside of making temporary appointments during congressional recess). Regardless of whichever side is in charge of the Senate, using Holds to stop basic Yes or No votes for the appointments have become a nightmare causing MORE bureaucratic disasters due to lack of performance in supervisory and judicial duties.
Look, it may be a bad thing if a wingnut President nominates a wingnut judge and there’s a simple majority of wingnut Senators who can vote the wingnut in, but there’s a better solution: keep the wingnuts OUT OF OFFICE. Get the damn vote out on Election Days and get the likes of DeMint and Akin and Rand Paul out of there! Sheesh.
PaulW
@Southern Beale:
I think it was Nixon.
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@JPL: Chris Christie will save the party or die trying.
? Martin
I’m pretty sure the secret holds were eliminated at the start of this Congress.
I actually think this is a bit of trickery on the Dem’s part. Someone on the right probably did seek to put a hold on the legislation and in spite of there being no rule allowing that, Reid permitted it because the optics were just too good. He knows he has the votes to pass this when they reconvene in time for it to take effect, so there’s going to be no impact on anyone (the House bill doesn’t go into effect until mid November) but it gives them a political weapon for the next 2 months.
Further, I’d speculate that the hold was placed by Scott Brown or on behalf of Scott Brown – so maybe by McConnell. The Vets bill came up the same day as his schedule debate with Warren, and thats when Reid shut down business in the Senate believing that Brown was looking to dodge the debate. Harry might have hung them out twice on this one.
Another Halocene Human
@Seanly: I think it means the third party fulfillment contractor plied the state lege with better booze and hotter flunkies than the contractor selling the lamination machines and supplies.
Chris
@Stooleo:
These people are fucking insane.
Dennis SGMM
@Ruckus:
You are correct about the ones who went to sea; they were the ones who scraped paint or stood watches in the engine room. I was based ashore alongside the beautiful and often fragrant Bassac River (Southernmost mouth of the Mekong)so they were barracks Master at Arms or barracks cleanup.
It was kind of sad because the Navy at the time put much reliance on week long series of tests administered to us in boot camp. Do badly on the tests and you went to your next duty station as an undesignated seaman which meant that you were headed for the most menial tasks. Some guys did study their way out of it. Others simply chipped paint, buffed floors, or mowed lawns for four years.
General Stuck
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace:
I think the loosely derived tradition for that is from Labor day in the year before the election as the red zone of a presidential election, and some less for mid terms.
The main problem seems to me is a breakdown of the gentleman’s agreement, by our two parties representing their vastly different world views, to allow the other party to govern when they when an election, especially one as decisive as 2008. Unless that gentleman’s agreement remains viable to maintain a democracy, then there is little hope to survival of a democracy over time. Just won’t work, as the rebels have many means to monkey wrench the system as a large minority.
Not all the republicans are insane, maybe half, to make a guess. That even though they very much disagree with our side’s worldview, they also know the same thing that none of it survives without considerable cooperation from the minority at any given point in time. They are going to have to sort this out, and we can keep trying to win elections to get a true governing majority, defusing the filibuster via the rules in place.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Culture of Truth: OK, that made me laugh.
Donut
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace:
This.
Picture Yertle McConnell braying about the leadership of the “Democrat Party” failing to pass the bill. The GOP base doesn’t care, and actual Democrats get pissed off (always a win, in the GOPs eyes).
They don’t give a shit if they are caught behaving maliciously, or busted lying or truth-stretching. And the hold will be gone by year’s end, at the latest, so the COLA will adjust regardless.
There is no immediate downside for them on this. They do continue to self-inflict long-term damage, but they are nihilists, anyway, so, again, they just don’t give a shit.
Baby Jebus, please let them all DIAF.
FlipYrWhig
@PaulW: I agree with most everything you said. I’ve come to think that if there’s a Republican president and a Republican-majority Senate, they’re going to get Up Or Down Votes on nutball judges and jacked-up laws, and they’ll get confirmed and enacted respectively, and, you know, ultimately that’s the cost of winning or losing in the US of A.
But the only people who are going to have a chance to change the way things work are the senators themselves. They have to willingly cede power for the sake of a larger mission, to wit, the government’s power to do a few goddamn things over the course of a period of years. I think they’re starting to come around. At least I hope so.
? Martin
@Stooleo: Anyone care to enlighten me how the fevered swamps of the GOP are any different than Islamic extremists or North Korea that work up their populations to believe that the US is coming to destroy them, their religion and so on?
Seems like a pretty damn similar propaganda effort, differing only by the scale of the results.
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Worked for a company that hired a new president. This dufus wrote an editorial for the company magazine touting his exploits as a medic in Vietnam. Turned out he had never served in Vietnam. Lost his job. Considering some of the people questioning his story I’m amazed he didn’t suffer some physically.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Dennis SGMM: I used to think that way to about the filibuster: We might need it someday. After these last few years, though, the Republicans got to screw the country with very little cost to them. I say it’s time to end the filibuster. If a majority party wants to pass something, let them try. Let the Republicans try to pass the You-Pay-For-Grannys-Retirement-and-Then-You-Get-Thrown-Out-On-the-Street bill. If it passes, some Republicans reps will start finding out what second amendment remedies really means.
Dennis SGMM
@Ruckus:
Although it may be a symptom of old age I am less and less able to discern a distinction between the assholes like the one you described and the chickenhawks.
Ruckus
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace:
Chris Christie will save the party or die trying.
I’ll vote for option #2.
FlipYrWhig
@General Stuck:
Which came at much the same time as the Republican party deciding they’d rather jerk off than govern. That’s the root of the problem, I think, not stuff like North and Bork and impeachment tit for tat. It’s that at a certain point the Republicans decided that they believed so wholeheartedly in the idea that the government shouldn’t be the solution to social problems that they’d do everything in their power to prevent it from even trying. So now both liberal and conservative policy-making emerge from the Democratic party, and Republicans diddle themselves and dare their voters to kick them out.
Violet
@? Martin: It it was Brown, and Reid was playing a bit of tricksy as you said, that would be delicious.
Has anyone called Brown’s office to ask if it was him? Perhaps a disabled vet could call?
Dennis SGMM
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
You folks make some very good points on this subject. Fuckers will find ways to be fuckers no matter what the rules.
dance around in your bones
Ok, I’ve always hesitated to say this out loud on this site, but every young guy I knew from the late 60’s til the end of the Vietnam War knew it was a Gawd-damned clusterfuck and they did everything they could to get out of the draft.
Having said that, I believe that we should – as a country – support every single fucking person who served in our military, who came back injured, damaged, or needing help, regardless of their (at the time) motives.
I had a friend who was a nurse in Vietnam, and the shit she saw there has colored her whole life.
Just – help them.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
I’d have paid you good money to correct my spelling “win” as “when” with your quote. I seem to be on the WP shitlist for closing comments to editing.
Violet
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace:
It would be excellent theater if he passed out while on one of the Sunday shows.
Gustopher
Secret hold? Mitch McConnell — he’s the man that does the holding for the secret Senator, so it’s him (at the request of a secret Senator)
amk
@? Martin: All this eleventeenth dimensional chess makes my head swim. But then, what a fecking furriner does know about murka ?
Ruckus
@Dennis SGMM:
Hey! I take offense here. I was a Transit barracks MA for about a month waiting for a ship. Good gig too 12 on 72 off, no inspections or checking in. Just relieve the guy before you. Only time I saw the chief was the first day when I showed up. It was much better than being on SP which I did the month before.
I also had a friend in on a ship I was on for 2 yrs who didn’t want to make rate, or anything else that called attention to himself. He wanted to spend his time in being as small a ripple in a big pond that he could be.
slippy
@Jado: This. Make them all wear the dead albatross. THey’re the fuckers who shot it.
Omnes Omnibus
@dance around in your bones: Not everyone succeeded in avoiding it. Some also made the Al Gore/John Kerry choice.
I agree with your main point though. Part of the social contract should be that, if you get hurt, in whatever way, while serving the country, the country does its level best to fix it.
Chris
@FlipYrWhig:
Not sure when that was, exactly. Was it Reagan? Even his administration seems relatively competent compared to the clusterfucks we’ve had since, but then, he never controlled all four branches of government and the liberal opposition could be pretty fierce (having grown up in the 9/11 era, the idea of a Congress that could actually get its shit together enough to stonewall his black ops projects in Central America, even if he found ways around that, makes me drool). So maybe it’s just that they were already fucked up, but not as completely in control.
? Martin
@Violet: They’d never cop to it. It’d be lethal in the next election.
But I’m almost certain that there’s no obligation for Reid to honor a secret hold except possibly if it was from McConnell (there are specific rights like that granted to minority leaders). If Reid honored it, it’s likely because it was in the Dems best interest to do so, not because he had to. Reid is certainly known to throw an elbow at the right time. If he was looking for a good issue to help boost his chances of keeping the Senate, then it was stupid move by the GOP to give him that opportunity.
It’s also possible the hold was placed by a Dem to achieve the same outcome. I’ve done that trick before. Stuck arguing with some asshole on the phone that I’m desperate to hang up on, I hang up in the middle of something I’m saying, then call them back and chew them out for hanging up on me. Always makes me feel better and puts them on the defensive. They know they didn’t hang up on me, but why would I hang up on myself? That makes no sense, and there’s no point arguing with me on it because I won’t hear that it was just a ‘convenient coincidence’. So a Dem places the hold, all the Dems vote for it – who are you going to blame? Why, one of the guys that voted against, of course. McConnell will call all of his guys demanding they come clean on the hold, but Harry will never divulge. It’ll remain an unanswered mystery until after the election…
Let’s not pretend that Democrats are all sweetness and light…
Violet
OT–Akin’s the gift that keeps on giving. First, one of his consultants compares him to David Koresh:
and second, Akin says it’s fine to pay women less, or not have a minimum wage, or…you decide:
Ruckus
@Dennis SGMM:
Is there a difference?
Sure wouldn’t have known it from this asshole.
Spatula
@Soonergrunt:
I’m remembering fondly back when Harry Reid used his position and the Senate Dem majority to change the rules and eliminate secret holds…oh…wait…
And all those other times when Dems used the secret hold as a means of obstructing George W Bush’s various wars and other atrocities…oh…wait…
Reasons 45,325 and 45,326 why a thinking progressive or liberal can NOT be an ENTHUSIASTIC backer of the Democratic party. WAY too many things that make you go “hmmm…”
General Stuck
OT
This sounds like a spoof program being run by Todd Akin’s adviser on her client. Or I am going insane.
That’s some far out shit.
edit – well drat, violet beat me to it.
LanceThruster
@Robert Sneddon:
That’s certainly the model for DMV corruption that hits the news on a regular basis.
Phony ID’s and fraudulent registration and VIN documents for stolen vehicles. In our neck of the woods, even the tax assessors get in on the graft as they undervalue properties for big campaign donors.
We need an honor system that if you break it, you’re given swimming lessons in cement overshoes.
piratedan
@Spatula: yeah, because they’re so much worse than the party that actually does place secret holds on Veterans COLA increases to their benefits and stands up and takes responsibility for doing so…. oh… wait….
Violet
@General Stuck: Great minds, Stuck. Great minds.
I can’t believe anyone is bringing up David Koresh. How in the world is that going to get Akin any votes? Government overreach? Crazy religion? Are those the demos he’s going for? Doesn’t he already have those votes locked down?
Mnemosyne
@Dennis SGMM:
True, but the response should be to tweak the rules, not to get rid of all the rules. For instance, I would have no problem with keeping the filibuster if they were able to tweak the rules so that the difficulty of maintaining it fell on the minority who wants the filibuster rather than the majority who doesn’t. As it stands now, all someone who wants to block a bill has to do is say, “I want to filibuster” and then go home, and the rest of the Senate has to round up enough people to maintain a quorum.
The current rules make it way, way too easy to grind business to a halt. It should be much harder for obstructionists to obstruct the business of the Senate.
Southern Beale
Fox News was covering a car chase live that just ended with the drive shooting himself in the head on live TV. Shep Smith shouting “get off it! Get off it!” and yet, they didn’t get off it.
Nobody could have anticipated this would happen.
On the other hand, what a perfect metaphor for Fox’s coverage of the Romney campaign.
Southern Beale
@LanceThruster:
Umm, don’t think “honor system” means what you think it means.
Ruckus
@dance around in your bones:
Like many here of the right age I served during Vietnam. I was not sent to Vietnam, which was nice for me but I knew many who went. And a few who didn’t come back. My best friend was in the Marines and landed in country on the day of the Tet offensive. He came back in one piece but I knew many that didn’t. Most that I’ve known are scarred or at least marked in some way for life. But having known a few who served in WWII as well I think it is war that is the problem, not the location.
The draft at least had the distinction of making more people aware that war sucks major donkey ass and should not be undertaken unless it is the last resort. How many Iraq vets do you know? My answer is none that I know of.
And yes most of us of draft age during Vietnam tried to find a way out of insuring that we end up holding a gun with people shooting at us. I sure did.
Cassidy
@Violet: Because Waco and Ruby Ridge go together in these dumbasses head’s.
@piratedan: Save yourself the trouble. Assume it is a dishonest shitstain who will not represent anyone’s argument fairly, then will run and hide when called on it, at some point claim it doesn’t need to be here and is completely happy without us, do it’s usual “JUST LIKE BUSH” schtick, and then come back many hours later to respond, trying to do the last word thing. It’s a complete pile of shit who would have done more for the world had it ended up in a condom.
Mnemosyne
@Southern Beale:
Hey, Fox Nooze knows their audience.
Groucho48
@quannlace:
I assume they are doing this because they don’t want bunches of veterans getting letters before the election saying that the government was giving them a raise.
FlipYrWhig
@Chris: I think it was during Bush I, after 9/11. Domestic policy-making totally went to seed. War-making and intelligence-gathering took over.
Then when Obama came in, McConnell decided he wasn’t going to allow Obama to pull off what Clinton did, i.e., capitalizing on Republican congressional support to build a track record of bipartisan accomplishments that he could cite while running for reelection. And then the “Tea Party” decided they preferred it that way too, and that the government should just stop trying to do much of anything anymore.
Spatula
@piratedan:
Your intentional incomprehension is, frankly, embarrassing.
I AM a registered Democrat, my child. I have not nor can ever imagine voting for a republican. But the Dems do and don’t do all this unexplainable, spineless shit that keeps me wondering what the hell is REALLY going on with them…me and MILLIONS of other progressives with brains who don’t confuse liberal/progressive goals with the success or failure of BO’s political career, or with tribal stupidity.
The fact that you are reduced to implying they are, at least, NOT WORSE than the Republicans kind of makes my point. :D
FlipYrWhig
@Southern Beale: I think he means “omertà”
LanceThruster
@Southern Beale:
Maybe stated less than eloquently, but I mean that people are put in a position of trust, but treat getting caught abusing that trust in major to somewhat less-than-major ways is treated as a “no harm, no foul” situation, when in fact it means you had your chance to act with integrity, you didn’t so the job is no longer yours and whatever penalties apply, honor system or not, are to be actively pursued.
amk
@Southern Beale:
purrfect end to my day.
Yutsano
@Comrade Dread: Aqua Buddha. No question.
dance around in your bones
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, that’s fer sure. You tended to be a white more well-connected dude to get out of the draft. My husband had a Quaker write him a letter saying he was anti-authoritarian at heart, and thus, a kinda weak/bad candidate for the military.
(This was after he refused to “get on the bus” and drove along behind it in his own car.)
@Ruckus: I know many Vietnam vets, but very few Iraq/AFG vets, The few that I know joined up because they couldn’t find a fucking job.
FlipYrWhig
@Spatula: Sometimes Democrats in the Senate do things that reflect more on their status as senators than their status as Democrats. Senators do things to preserve senatorial prerogatives. Judges preserve judicial prerogatives. Diplomats preserve diplomatic prerogatives. Unions preserve union prerogatives. Businesses preserve business prerogatives. People who live in condo developments that have two parking spots per unit, even when they only have one vehicle, don’t give back the second spot just because they don’t need it — they hold onto it in case something changes in the future. This is basic stuff.
Seeing these things as an ideological conspiracy to spite liberals is an exercise in self-martyrdom and self-gratification.
piratedan
@Spatula: oh my goodness, your omniscience is showing, not to mention annoying. Many of us are fully aware that the Dems are less than perfect. You wanna start up a purity party speaking for the poniless, feel free to do so while you inhabit the pie filter.
Also, I know who my parents were, so I’m pretty confident that I am not your progeny… say hi to Jane as ye get thee hither back to hotdoggiepond.
kay
The RNC/Romney voter registration fraud scandal spreads in FL.
7 counties. Where is James O’Keefe?
Southern Beale
@Spatula:
Maybe you should read Rebecca Solnit’s “The Rain On Our Parade” essay.
Dear everybody: I’m sorry the world isn’t perfect. I really am. But if that’s what you’re expecting you will always be disappointed.
That is all.
Southern Beale
@kay:
Make that 10 counties, love. Nobody could have anticipated hiring a company known for being crooked would lead to crookedness! Crrrazy!
The Dangerman
Paul or Kyl.
Chris
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, I’d say warmaking and intelligence gathering per se totally went to seed to – actually, the entire government did. Foreign and national security policy during that entire time appears to have been guided by the overall goal of 1) funneling tons and tons of money at defense contractors and 2) getting Republicans reelected (and that was the case even before 9/11), which explains otherwise incomprehensible decisions like the entire Iraq war.
But yeah, I’m ready to believe it was under Bush.
Culture of Truth
@Spatula:
Have you ever asked?
Bubblegum Tate
So have we talked about how even the liberal Unskewed Polls has Obama ahead yet?
dance around in your bones
@Ruckus:
Ok, I bolded that word because I think it’s so true.
I have a good friend who came back from Vietnam paralyzed, in a wheelchair, and driving his truck with hand controls. He was actually pretty cheerful – we used to go out to bars and drink. I always wished I had slept with him, because he seemed to want it so much….but I was married at the time.
I have a brother-in-law who came back and never said a gawd-damned word about it. Just drank a LOT for a few years, then got it together.
War is hell.
Southern Beale
CAN WE GET AN OPEN THREAD PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE
raven
@Southern Beale: Yea, these threads about vets get old.
FlipYrWhig
@Chris: Good point. I think the Republicans wanted to get wars and intelligence/counterintelligence “right,” at least by their standards, and tried, at least to some degree. But they were absolutely incapable of doing it. But the last Republican item of domestic policy that wasn’t some package of tax cuts was, what, No Child Left Behind?
Spatula
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, maybe if they want some respect and credibility, they should, you know…stop doing this kind of shit. Also, too, seeing as how elected dems and you are all cuddly with anonymous senate holds, maybe people here should stop bitching when Republicans use them.
Also too, thank you for encapsulating the BJ Commentariat’s comfortable relationship with government by and for the elite.
A person with a concern for healthy democratic principles would argue that your list of fucked up shit is fucked up. Instead you’re like, “oh well, that’s the way it is and I’m happy to participate.”
Not me.
Soonergrunt
@raven: “there are as many stupid ass motherfucking grunts as any other mos.” Here, Sir!
raven
@Soonergrunt: Keepin it light!
Spatula
@Southern Beale:
Such a tired, old straw man.
I don’t ask for perfection. I don’t even desire it. What I do desire is trustworthy elected Dems who reliably and transparently MOVE TOWARD and in the direction of perfect…with conviction and integrity.
It would be nice if more people desired this. A lot of you seem to get off on the labrynthian bullshit that passes for democracy in this corrupted republic.
Southern Beale
@kay:
ALSO, Colorado girl registering ‘only Romney’ voters tied to firm dumped by RNC over fraud…
Again, nobody could have anticipated, yada yada ….
dance around in your bones
@raven: Oh, raven, for me it never gets old ( i know you’re prolly being snarky – and I know you prolly have MUCH more experience in this war thing than I do) but for me (as an XX chromosomal type) it was a huge part of my life.
Wasn’t it you who linked to The Anderson Platoon the other night? I fell asleep with tears on my cheeks after watching it.
Violet
@Southern Beale: I think Balloon-Juice management need to put up an open thread to auto-post around this time every week day. Seems this time of day every day there’s a massive lull and the previous thread goes way OT.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Stooleo: that is fucking horrendous.
raven
@dance around in your bones: Yea, you should try to find the original where the director does the narration. He talks about how he felt he needed to make it because the French got us into “the biggest nothing in the world”>
A Face of War may be a better film. A doc done with a Marine unit at the same basic time.
raven
@Spatula: Go the fuck away.
Spatula
@dance around in your bones:
Unbelievable.
War pron is pron.
Violet
@raven: It’s been up on top for three hours. Eventually threads like that go way OT at the end. Probably better to put up an open thread so folks with non-vet commentary can go there.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@? Martin: I wish I’d thought of this years ago. I tip my hat to you, good sir.
raven
@Violet: I go OT as soon as I can.
Chris
@FlipYrWhig:
Yeah. Emphasis on “to some degree,” though. 9/11 gave them something they knew they had to respond to, and tried to, sort of, but their interest came first, not the country’s.
Spatula
@raven:
Well, if YOU say so..will do, sir! Not.
Don’t you have some more war pron to disseminate somewhere?
FlipYrWhig
@Spatula: Why are you congratulating yourself on what you _desire_? Desire is cheap stuff, man. Institutions like to stay the way they are. “Desiring” them to be otherwise isn’t heroic or brave, it’s jack to the power of squat.
dance around in your bones
@raven:
Gads, kinda like Afghanistan, no? After the example the Soviets set the example for us? 10 bloody years and an ignominious withdrawal?
P.S. I was there just before the Soviet invasion – got out just ahead with my kid. I still remember being in a Chinese import store and hearing on the overhead speakers about the invasion – my husband was still there – and thinking, oh Shit, this is it.
War is fucked up.
I will watch ‘A Face of War’, though, thanks.
? Martin
@Forum Transmitted Disease: If you do it, make sure you have the other person’s number ready to dial in. It’s really key that you call them back, so you can go full-throated outrage against them. That’s really important. Your goal is to be even keeled when you hang up on yourself (mid-word, which takes a little practice) and then 100% offense pissed off on the call back, shut down the conversation on your terms and then politely end the call.
Obama’s not the only one who plays 11 dimensional chess. ;)
Spatula
@FlipYrWhig:
Can Bots argue anything without attributing statements never stated and intentions never implied?
Link to where I congratulated myself, please? Thanks.
catclub
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Bugs Bunny would do that. Hat Tip as well.
I might be hat tipping the wrong person, sorry.
FlipYrWhig
@Spatula: Oh, somewhere right around here:
Howard Beale IV
@RaflW: Ah yes: L’affaire Bordkorb. Think he’ll win his suit?
Spatula
@FlipYrWhig:
No, you maroon, the part where I CONGRATULATED myself. That part, you know, the one that doesn’t exit.
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
Don’t forget, if Timmeh didn’t use the exact precise word “congratulate” in that comment, then smugly saying, “It would be nice if more people desired this” doesn’t count as being self-congratulatory, because he didn’t specifically say, “I am congratulating myself on being better than all of you here.”
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Spatula: Hey, Spat, I’m curious what your definition of perfect is? I’m also curious how this person would get anything done?
Last time someone perfect hung out on earth, he got nailed to some wood.
FlipYrWhig
@Spatula: So something that basically reduces to “It would be nice if more people desired the great things I desire” isn’t self-congratulatory?
Or, earlier,
A concerned and right-thinking political person believes X, you don’t, but I do? Nope, no back-patting there either, I suppose.
Hooo-kay then.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: We have a lot of ardent contrarians around here, but most of them, like, admit it. I don’t get Spatz’s act.
ETA: Unless it’s “I’m such a contrarian I’ll even deny being a contrarian, just to mess with you.”
Mnemosyne
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Because DougJ started another song thread, I have to link to a related song: “The Ballad of Peter Pumpkinhead.”
Kinda funny that Andy Partridge managed to write both a great atheist song and a great Jesus figure song in the course of the same career.
ETA: Because I hate the Kennedy-esque video, I didn’t link to it, but you can find it easily on YouTube.
Peter
Spatula, please stop masturbating publically. It’s messy and the janitor refuses to pick up after it anymore.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne: Love XTC.
Spatula
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Once again, another example of what I can only conclude is intentional miscomprehension: I specifically said “moving toward, or moving in the direction of” perfection…not BEING perfect.
No one is ever going to be perfect, I think we can agree. Showing good faith, consistent efforts to move in that direction ACROSS THE BOARD would be a great sign of progressively informed integrity. Prez O moves in the opposite direction on enough issues to give any fair minded person paying attention pause.
Which makes your comment nonsensical.
Spatula
@FlipYrWhig:
So every time you challenge a nonBot here on their thinking, or disagree with anyone, there is an implicit assumption therein that you think you are morally superior and a better person?
Do I get this right? So any time anyone disagrees with anyone and promotes their way of thinking, they are insulting the other person and holding themselves up as a moral beacon, correct?
Good to know.
Your defensiveness is noted.
Also, this is rich coming from the side which is always insults which amount to saying: “I (you in this case) am morally superior to you because in your effort to live up to your own moral code you are self righteous and unrealistic. So in NOT living up to my own code, and compromising my beliefs so I can take part in the existing, deeply flawed system, I am actually morally superior to YOU.”
I see how that works.
Spatula
@FlipYrWhig:
Flyp, is it really your belief that everyone, I mean everyone who disagrees with you is doing so merely to be “contrarian?”
I don’t know…you disagree with ME a lot, and I’ve been posting here for seven or eight years, so maybe YOU are the contrarian.
Tiny, tribal minds…you see BJ as some little cocoon wherein you have an imaginary right to not be challenged, and for your beliefs to be the hive mind dominant beliefs.
Interesting. And stupid.
Greyjoy
@RaflW: I think you’d be more interested to know that Michael Brodkorb is a GOP consultant because he was fired from his job as a Senate aide for sleeping with the Senate Majority Leader, Amy Koch (who resigned the leadership position).
Keep in mind that this is the very same legislature who is putting an amendment on the ballot to the MN Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman, because apparently the sanctity of marriage is important. Or it should be. When you’re not fucking your married boss.
The MN GOP is also a million-plus in debt, got evicted from their party headquarters for nonpayment of rent (hadn’t paid in nearly a year) and apparently were also using money set aside for the Emmer/Franken recount (which didn’t take place) for who knows what, because golly gee, nobody can figure it out.
Brodkorb has zero credibility and thus is an excellent representative for our craptastic Republican leadership.
Mnemosyne
@Spatula:
So regulating the financial industry is moving us in the wrong direction?
Getting millions of Americans access to health insurance is moving us in the wrong direction?
Getting rid of DADT, not defending DOMA, and putting gay marriage in the Democratic Party platform is moving us in the wrong direction?
Leaving Iraq is moving us in the wrong direction?
Setting a timetable for leaving Afghanistan is moving us in the wrong direction?
I guess you must be all in favor of letting the banksters do whatever they want, giving health insurance companies free reign to screw over their customers, restricting the civil rights of gay people, and endless war, since to you all of the moves that Obama has made in those arenas have been taking us the “opposite direction” of where you think we should be going.
johnny driftless zone
@Omnes Omnibus:
He didn’t say it was necessary. He handed me the paper temp and said I can use that to drive in the meantime, and I thought he said something like, You can use it to vote too, or something like that. At least I think I remember something like that. Feel like an idiot for not paying more attention, picking up on that or remembering what he said more clearly. But somehow i got the idea in my head thats what the paper temp could be used for.
That was just before labor day. At the Odana renewal center in Madison on the west side.
Also, what is the GAB?
Spatula
@Mnemosyne:
Mem, you never fail to entertain with your mind numbingly clueles (intentionally so) reading of comments from those who disagree with you.
Please note: My use of the phrase “enough issues” does not magically give you license to decide for me what issues I am talking about.
I could list OTHER issues on which the O is not being progressive but extremely REgressive, but you don’t argue in any measure of good faith, so I don’t know…just go douche yourself or something…
BruinKid
I go with Rand Paul, because he didn’t give a shit when he blocked the veterans jobs bill just two weeks ago to demand the release of the Pakistani doctor who helped us get bin Laden.
While honorable, the guy’s being jailed by Pakistan, and they don’t want to give him up. What does Paul think we should do, invade them now that they’ve refused??
Hunter
@Comrade Dread: Me too, but more on the grounds that Paul is, out of those three, the stupidest and most tone-deaf.
GMC
@Carnacki:X fucking 2! Sorry fuckin assholes!