As he repeats numerous times in this video (from Steve B), Bishop Thomas J Paprocki isn’t telling you who to vote for – that would endanger his tax free charitable standing. He’s just saying that Republicans don’t like abortions or gay marriage.
He’s not telling you that victims of child molestation are evil and should be punished. He’s just saying that “the principal force behind these attacks is none other than the devil.”
And, he’s certainly not advocating rounding up and locking up Muslims. He’s just saying that airport security personnel are wrong “for not profiling Arabs” and warning that “Muslims could impose Islamist values in the United States if they keep moving here until they reach a majority.” Also, too:
This year, on the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 tragedy, some U.S. dioceses held interfaith observances. But not in Springfield, where diocesan services were ecumenical, open only to Christians.
“There wasn’t any conscious decision on my part – I never had that conversation, interfaith versus ecumenical,” says Paprocki.
So when I say, fuck Thomas J Paprocki, and note that the world would be a better place if assholes like him were in jail for conspiring to shield child molesters instead of preaching the hate and divisiveness that spontaneously escapes his geriatric piehole, I’m not making a conscious decision, I’m just saying.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Hey, no fair changing the topic to something we all agree on.
Violet
Central Casting called; they want their child molester character actor back.
the Conster
Keep talking fuckwad. The jig is just about up.
WereBear
I would be astonished that a “man of gawd” seems so ignorant of clearly delineated precepts established by his religion’s founder.
But I’m not, because I have Southern Baptist experience.
beltane
Now here is a good example of a Manichean Monster.
PurpleGirl
That’s some fine hair splitting he’s doing — interfaith versus ecumenical. When I’ve been a church member those words were generally taken to be have the same meaning.
lacp
He’s really tap-dancing very close to the edge of the stage as far as his church’s tax exemption goes. If I were Mr. IRS Dude, I believe I would initiate an investigation regarding his comments and advise the good bishop that he had to cease fundraising pending that investigation’s outcome.
geg6
Fuck this asshole with a rusty pitchfork. Fuck the Catholic Church. Fuck religion.
I used to be a live and let live atheist. Not so much any more. I want religion and religionists to keep their stupid shit out of the public conversation. Which may, actually, happen soon since young people seem to run screaming from them as fast as they can these days and the percentage of people claiming no religious affiliation at all has grown and continues to grow.
In fact, perhaps I’m wrong and we should encourage these dickwads to keep talking as loudly and often as possible. Maybe we can get that unaffiliated number to move from 15% to 40 or 50%.
balconesfault
So what about Birth Control, Bishop?
Is everyone who uses, or even supports, access to birth control, placing their mortal soul in jeopardy?
Or does the good Bishop think it’s best if at the moment he hides his views on that from his flock?
Haydnseek
Child molesters aren’t responsible because the devil made them do it. So we can all do whatever the hell we want without consequence, because you know, the devil…………
MattF
@lacp: I’d say he’s well over that line. “It’s not me who’s telling you to vote Republican, it’s God.”
Rafer Janders
Similarly, Jews could also impose their values if enough of them move here until they reach a majority. As could Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Taoists, Odin worshippers, and even Roman Catholics.
And, um, if Muslims ever do become a majority in the US, shouldn’t they in some sense be able to impose some of their values in a democracy? (Provided proper Constitutional protections remain for minority rights). Is he suggesting that the minority Christians should somehow force their values onto the majority Muslims? How’s that going to work, exactly, in a democracy?
Davis X. Machina
Such splendid irrelevance.
The days when a belt of the crozier would work on voters were also the days when men wore hats everywhere.(1) There is no Catholic vote.
Fighting the last war is a malady not restricted to generals.
(1) Proper hats. Not gimme-caps. Progress is not universal, nor is there no way in which we regress.
burnspbesq
@lacp:
It’s a damn good thing you don’t work for the IRS, because if you tried to revoke the Springfield Diocese’s exemption based on these remarks, the only thing standing between the IRS and an award of attorneys’ fees would be the net worth cap. This isn’t even close to the line. The bishop has been well advised by competent counsel.
You should really make more of an effort to know what you’re talking about before you hit “submit.”
Ash Can
It’s good to see this crap getting exposure. As we’ve discussed extensively here, the shitheels in Catholic leadership have been emboldened recently and have been letting their freak flags fly, and they need to feel blowback in full measure.
Villago Delenda Est
This asshole needs to be strangled with his own entrails.
arguingwithsignposts
@burnspbesq: Yes, the IRS “line” on political speech is about as good as fuck-all when politicians are invited to speak from the pulpits of churches on any given sunday (and I’m talking right and left here). Here’s a better idea: get rid of the entire tax exemption for religious entities.
Rafer Janders
@burnspbesq:
Oh, c’mon. You know it’s like waving a red flag in front of a bull when you write stuff like that where I can see it. It’s a beautiful day, do you really want to make me spend it bouncing you around this thread?
lacp
@burnspbesq: Why should I do that when I have you to do it for me? :)
Violet
OT but funny:
He’s Barbie Ryan. “Math is hard!”
Hunter
It says a lot that he didn’t make a conscious decision to exclude non-Christians from 9/11 observances: obviously, exclusion and discrimination are his default position.
Sullivan Hyde
Can’t hear the audio at work, but did he really say “for not profiling Arabs?”
Srsly?
The majority of Arab-Americans are Christian, and at least half of those are Catholics (ex. John Sununu, Ray Lahood). This is insanity.
Not to mention it’d be wrong anyways if that weren’t the case, but come on…
Ben Franklin
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Hey, no fair changing the topic to something we all agree on.
It’s a pattern. Throw a bomb then extinguish flames with bottled mineral water.
Nathaniel
Fuck the fucking Catholic Church. May their pews empty, their money disappear and their church rot into nonexistence.
But let me guess. Paprocki doesn’t represent the REAL Catholic Church. Oh no. You’re different. You’re catholic, but not Catholic Catholic. Your priest doesn’t say stuff like this. Your diocese has never protected a child rapist. You’re conscience is as clean as a whistle, and we’re the bad guys for bringing up the church’s dirty laundry.
Linda Featheringill
A Religious Leader is an asshole. Millions of truly religious and truly honorable people are roundly ignored. The sun came up in the East this morning. Water is wet.
mistermix
@Sullivan Hyde: That was from the article linked, which has a whole bunch of quotes and summaries of the hateful shit he’s been spewing for the past few years.
Gian
I did a bing search on his name, and I about died laughing because on the first page was a wal-mart shopping list
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Thomas+J.+Paprocki
the books that are on that list …
a bio of stonewall jackson
red conspirator… about the “american commie underground”
the real lincoln… an unnecessary war…
a whole lot if stuff on thomas jefferson.
I’m just kinda wierded out that what popped up was just about as full of sterotypical winger stuff as a glenn beck reading list, and I have no idea how wal-mart knows
Violet
And Christie throws Romney under the bus by fucking up the expectations game:
Full steam ahead for 2016.
meander
Speaking of churches getting all partisan, on October 7, there is apparently a thing called “Pulpit Freedom Sunday,” where church leaders will intentionally defy IRS regulations about not being involved in partisan campaigns by explicitly endorsing candidates and parties. They are taunting the IRS: “What are you going to do about it?” Amy Sullivan has a good write-up at The New Republic. She points out something that has been mentioned before when the subject of tax-exempt churches getting involved in partisan politics comes up: No one is stifling the churches’ freedom to spout whatever politics they like. The issue is with their tax-exempt status. If you want your church to become a GOP mouthpiece, then give up your tax-exempt status. It’s that simple. But apparently too simple for the leaders of “Pulpit Freedom Day.”
Ben Franklin
@Rafer Janders:
He objects to drones flying into the Vatican.
robertdsc-iPhone 4
Given the last 2 posts, a drone strike on the Bishop’s residence seems the perfect response. Fuck that guy.
Anya
The use of interfaith versus ecumenical is curious. Does the child rape enabling bishop classify a dialogue with Mormons, an interfaith or ecumenical?
Imma go little OT since this is thread is under religious nuts. Can someone explain to me why are republicans calling for Susan Rice to resign? If they’re mad about the administration’s handling of the attacks on the American Embassy in Libya, shouldn’t they be calling for the head of the SoS instead of UN Ambassador? What am I missing?
Davis X. Machina
@Nathaniel:
All of that can happen, and it will still be there, because all of that has happened, before, and it’s still here.
Still, one must have dreams.
patroclus
I thought Christianity was all about “love one another” and “judge not lest ye be judged.” Who knew that it really was about comdemnation of marriage equality as “intrinsically evil”?
MattF
@Anya: They hate Susan Rice.
Hill Dweller
OT: The twitter machine is telling me the wannabe journalist Dancin’ Dave Gregory falsely accused Obama of saying we had defeated Al Qaeda.
Paul Ryan told Chris Wallace “I don’t have the time” to explain their tax plan.
McCain accused Harry Reid of not caring about Ambassador Stephens’ death.
Chris Christie accuses Obama of lying about Willard’s tax plan, then proceeds to lie about Willard’s tax plan.
Davis X. Machina
@patroclus: Blame the Emperor Constantine (272-337 CE) for the confusion. It’s an ongoing problem…
Anya
@Violet: Shorter Christie: Fuck Mitt Romney, there’s a 2016 race I need to think about.
Gex
Three.Billion.Per.Year.
That’s how much we pay the Church to rape kids, protect rapists, oppress woman, and persecute gays. I’m ready to stop. I wish the tax and spend folks would get behind ending this huge waste of government funds.
Violet
@Anya: Yep. Christie is better at politics than Romney, but I think Christie’s me-first attitude isn’t going to win him the friends in the GOP he thinks it will.
@Hill Dweller:
Seriously? Gawd, he’s awful. They can’t get rid of him this close to the election, but I’d be worried if I were Dancin’ Dave. The #DavidGregorysToughQuestions meme was not good for his reputation, and if he keeps being made fun of, NBC won’t like it. They want people to take them seriously.
Amanda in the South Bay
@burnspbesq:
I just knew we would have good good old Burnsey defending the Church.
Or something like that.Suffern Ace
@Anya: Susan Rice is most likely going to be SoS in the next administration. Since my guess the plan is to block every cabinet position they can, they are just setting the table for a drawn out obstruction of her nomination. Make it appear principled and such.
Hill Dweller
@Anya:
Clinton isn’t black. She’s also popular.
Also too, Rice might be the next SoS, so they’re trying to preemptively destroy her chances of getting the job.
cckids
@meander:
They’ve been doing this since 2008. They send the tapes in to the IRS, and not one investigation has been launched yet. I understand why not – holy Christ on a cracker, can you imagine the ginned-up outrage? But maybe after the election? We can dream, I guess.
So many churches & their leaders are so, so far away from anything that the man or prophet Jesus would have recognized as acting in his name.
Anya
@Hill Dweller:
He also lied about President Obama fundraising in Las Vegas, the day after the attacks in Libya.
Hill Dweller
Dancin’ Dave also falsely accused Obama of holding a fundraiser in Vegas the day after Ambassador Stephens’ death.
Anya
@Hill Dweller: Ah, I get it now. Rice is their next Eric Holder.
@Or something like that.Suffern Ace: I thought Kerry was the front runner for that post. He really wants it and after all he did for President Obama I think he should choose Kerry.
burnspbesq
@Rafer Janders:
You’re welcome to try. Go read the Regs, and then come back and tell me what’s wrong with my analysis.
Oops, I lost you at “read the Regs,” didn’t I?
Yutsano
@Gex: Are you including all the tax exemptions in there as well? Cause not paying property or income taxes saves them a shit ton of money.
cckids
@Hill Dweller:
He also slammed Obama for not “providing details” about how he’d create jobs. (I think he was on CBS for that one) The host asked if the same couldn’t be said of Romney, and Christie basically replied that if Obama would only give specifics, Romney would too. Of course, no mention made of the attempts Obama has made that the House has shot down.
Or of the sad reality of a Presidential campaign basically saying that their strategy is “I’ll show you mine if you show me yours”.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Gian: Wal-Mart’s search engine sucks. Most of those books were written by Thomas J. /somelastname/.
Sasha
Returned from church where the homily warned against being overly doctrinaire and celebrated mavericks (actual ones, not Palinesque “mav’ricks”) and I then I read about this tool … oy.
Schlemizel
@Rafer Janders:
And therein lies the reason for separation of church and state as well as our democratic ideal of not implementing a tyranny of the majority. It is the assholes screaming the loudest about the “Sharia” threat that most want to destroy the wall between church and state and institute a majority tyrant to rule. Ironic hardly begins to describe it.
arguingwithsignposts
@Yutsano: Yes, the property tax thing would, I think, actually hit the Catholic Church harder than any other tax exemption.
burnspbesq
@Amanda in the South Bay:
The only thing I have defended in this thread is the principle that making shit up should be avoided whenever possible. I guess you missed the point.
Peregrinus
This guy is one of Reginald Foster’s former students. I know because Foster brought him up when I took Latin with him. Got the sense that, while apparently a pretty good Latinist, he wasn’t one of Foster’s favorite people . . . which is no surprise considering Foster self-proclaims himself to be a Communist.
Mr Stagger Lee
@cckids: Democrats are ball-less swine, hell the Bush administration went after an Episcopalian parish for preaching series of Anti-War sermons. You know that the tea-party GOP will use the IRS to teach the uppity Black Churches a lesson, if given a chance.
Mike E
Just had this convo with a lapsing Catholic co-worker last night. The contrast for many many of them is not lost. Drive that wedge deeper!
ding dong
@Anya: this is a duhhh question. susan rice is black and hillary clinton is white.
jwb
This post is ok, but I wish one of the frontpagers would put up a post bashing Mittwit or Ryan or one of the other stupid Republicans so we can all get back to the business at hand.
WaterGirl
@Hill Dweller: But what did the Democrats on those shows say?
Oh, sorry, let me guess. No democrats were on the shows, right?
Yutsano
@WaterGirl: I think this falls under the category of if you have to ask…
Davis X. Machina
@Peregrinus: Fr. Reg takes his Matthew 25:31 very, very seriously. How seriously? Noun-adjective agreement seriously.
Peregrinus
@Mike E:
Speaking as an un-lapsed Catholic, this idiot is part of the reason I got confirmed but still can’t set foot in an actual parish in good conscience.
That said, I was confirmed by Bishop Matthew Clark, who is probably the last liberal bishop left in the US, who supports married, female, and gay clergy, and who appointed a number of nuns to lead congregations in the area – including the parish through which I was confirmed. I specifically went in for confirmation because I knew this about the man.
He gave a speech at my girlfriend’s university graduation. For a Church official, it was pretty damn political – though he was outshone on that score by the next speaker, the President of Brown University – and essentially the kind of speech you give when you’re retiring and you know management can’t touch you anymore.
Violet
@WaterGirl: I wonder if one of the Sunday Shows would ever try something truly different, like having all Democrats on the show one Sunday. Ratings might increase. Then what would they do?
Chris
@Davis X. Machina:
This.
It’s been true for decades, I have no idea why people still cling to the notion that there is one.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Violet: It’s not math, it’s arithmetic. No algebra, geometry, or trig, no calculus or differential equations, no topology, no Fourier transforms, LaGrangians, manifolds, vector spaces, groups, rings, or fields. Or other stuff I forgot.
And hell, for arithmetic, he’s not even dealing with multiplication and division. Is he telling us he couldn’t make it through addition and subtraction in second grade?
Chris
@Anya:
Because she’s serving under a Democratic president.
Period.
Davis X. Machina
@Chris: Not only generals are prone to fighting the last war.
Peregrinus
@Davis X. Machina:
True story: the first day I was in his class, I translated libenter as “freely.” Cue wheelchair squeak.
“What does libenter never mean?”
It’s been over two years now and I still haven’t lived that down. Hell, I became legal during the second week of his class.
Gex
@Yutsano: Nope. That’s direct funds through faith based initiatives.
A 2002 study published in the Dallas paper showed that 2/3 of American Bishops covered up abuse allegations. Surely we could find a better organization to run our adoption services.
Violet
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: I think he’s telling us his plan is crap.
Anya
@Violet: Dancing Dave will be moderating the Warren and Brown debate tomorrow. I am sure he’ll do his best to sabotage Elizebeth Warren.
Violet
@Anya: Aww…fuck. Seriously? WTF? Who invited him? I hope the Twitterati are ready with #DavidGregorysToughQuestions.
Edit: It would be AWESOME if Elizabeth Warren told Dancin’ Dave that the premise of one of his questions was false.
Anya
@Chris: So is Clinton who, after all, has more responsibility for the embassy, as the Secretary of State, than the UN ambassador.
Gex
@Violet: This isn’t about ratings. They will take a loss on the network to win EVERYWHERE else. Propaganda only looks like a loss leader.
WaterGirl
@Yutsano: I can’t afford it?
Yutsano
@Gex: The property tax exemption costs local governments alone much more than that three billion. I think grants to any faith-based organisation should be bid upon like any other government grant and reviewed annually with conscience clauses that show any wrongdoing or criminal activity means no further money ever. But I’m admittedly a hardass. :)
@WaterGirl: That would be…the story of my life. :)
MikeBoyScout
Bravo!
F*ck this idiot and his crime family. just saying
Violet
@Gex: Yeah, I know that. The thing is, what they care about is being close to power and having influence. For the last 30 years or so, the Republicans have had that power. But it’s waning. If the Dems have a landslide election, it’s going to be harder to ignore that fact. Not that they won’t ignore it, but at some point access to power becomes more important than fluffing a loser.
Gex
Regardless of whether there is a “Catholic vote” the fact is that the institution of the Catholic Church is heavily political and spend the money to sway others, not just Catholics.
They have been THE driving force behind the anti-gay stuff. Protestants were happy to join in and take NOM’s money (which seems to come from the RCC wherever they haven’t sued to hide the info) to preach against gays.
So yeah, fine, the Catholic laity isn’t the problem. But the Catholic Church sure as hell is.
Davis X. Machina
@Peregrinus: I had a reservation once for one of Reg’s Kentucky Conventicula, and my wife’s due date for #2 fell right on top of it. Met him at a conference once, though, but briefly. And heard tons of war stories.
Davis X. Machina
@Gex: They’re spending all that money — and not swaying Catholics.
Anya
@Violet: I know, right. Why don’t Democrats play hardball with “journalists” who show their bias? Dancing Dave is always asking democrats to respond to GOP talking points but they never raise a fuss. Why the fuck is that?
Gex
@Yutsano: I bring up the direct payments though because talking about taking away exemptions gets a lot of pushback, and as burnpesq is pointing out, may not actually apply.
But we could probably easily make the point that the church that had 8000 unreported abuse allegations discovered in one diocese alone… maybe they shouldn’t be paid to handle children. Especially since they seem to prefer to keep those kids in their hands than adopt them out sometimes.
WaterGirl
@Violet: I watch Up with Chris Hayes every Saturday and every Sunday, and I can honestly say I do not miss the Sunday shows even one bit.
And I say that as someone who watched them religiously until Tim Russert died. I tried to watch Tom Brokaw as host once or twice and it made me sick. Never could bring myself to watch Fluffy, not even once. Spent Sunday mornings emailing MSNBC about Fluffy – to no avail – and then gave up on Sunday shows altogether.
So sad to see Meet the Press turn into such a pile of shit.
Edit: Forgot to say in answer to your question that I think they should try a bunch of different things to try to make those shows less crappy, but I don’t think they ever will. The care more about access than anything, though why they keep putting McCain on is beyond my ability to understand.
BobS
@Hill Dweller: I don’t regularly watch the MSNBC night time line up of Maddow, Schultz, et al, but when I’ve seen them they do seem to take shots at the nonsense spewed by Limbaugh, Beck, Fox, etc. I guess the corporation would frown on them criticizing MTP for it’s lack of diverse points of view or some of the stupid shit Gregory says.
Chris
@Anya:
Yeah, but she’s retiring within a year no matter who wins. The “don’t want Rice as the next SecState” explanation makes the most sense to me… but my point was just that they don’t need a reason to pile onto anyone. “I’ve got a blank spot on my Daily Wingnut Rage Inducer and I need to fill it with something” is probably as good a reason as any.
@Gex:
I wouldn’t go that far… I’d say the fundiegelical megachurches have been “THE” driving force just as much as the RCC. (Not that that absolves the RCC in any way shape or form).
Peregrinus
@Davis X. Machina:
Let me know if you have two months to give up and go to Milwaukee. I fully intend to do the senior section before Reg expires (or I do).
On your other subject, what in the actual coitus? I thought the KY Conventicula were Terence Tunberg’s. I know because that was my other option if Reg hadn’t replied to me, and I’m pretty sure if Tunberg ever meets me he’s going to cut my head off for forcing him to ask the organizers to accept a late check. (Long story.)
On a side note, I know you comment here and at LGM, but I can’t leave a good classicist alone. There any other way you would accept another Latinist contacting you?
@Gex:
There’s also FRC and Focus on the Family, which (IIRC) are Dobsonite. Agreed about the Church in general, though.
BGinCHI
Motherfucker doesn’t know what “ecumenical” means.
LanceThruster
@Rafer Janders: Unfortunately, Zionists have been able to largely impose their values without a majority. And in Palestine, having a majority is no guarantee of security either.
Gex
@Davis X. Machina: They are still achieving results. The anti-ssm amendments. The abortion and birth control restrictions. The hospitals being purchased and having to follow Catholic doctrine. They just tried to make it so insurance companies and employers can enforce the leadership’s views on citizens.
What good does it do me that the laity isn’t like this when the policies of the leadership are more influential in secular government? Even the social justice portions, which I’ve been talking about as being tax payer subsidized (!!) has been held hostage to the anti-gay politics of the leadership.
Violet
@WaterGirl: You are not the only one who has given up on MTP. Their ratings are down since Smug Chipmunk took over.
I wish they’d change it up instead of having one host. Have a rotating pool of hosts and the guests don’t know who it is until the day of. Switch that up with a team of hosts, so the guests have to face a panel instead of one. Bring in a guest host for the panel from a swing state market to get a different take. Again, guests don’t know who’s there until the day of. Sell the change as “Keeping our government on its toes” and making the point that part of the reason for doing it is so guests can’t prepare for one interviewer only, or something.
The whole thing now is just too insider-y and cozy. If they want to be thought of as leaders in this arena, which I think they do to some extent since they used to boast about it with Russert, then they need to change it up to reclaim that title.
WaterGirl
@Yutsano: And mine! I have expensive tastes, but without the income to back it up.
Seriously, put any 10 similar items in front of me, and without knowing their prices or brand names or anything, I will likely be drawn to the one that is most expensive. It even happened to me at the bicycle store last week, looking at tire pumps, for god’s sake.
I had to re-do my kitchen in 3 separate pieces because I couldn’t afford to do it all at once. I figured I was only gonna do this once, and I wanted to put in stuff I really liked.
Jay C
@Anya:
I read some blogospheric blather about John Kerry and his reported SoS “ambitions” around the DNC, and while he supposedly is in line consideration for the job, there’s a problem with him being a senior Democratic Senator. Massachusetts law mandates a special election to fill Senate vacancies (which is how they’ve ended up with Scott Brown), and if the Senate partisan balance is tight; there’s a nontrivial chance MA might send another Republican to fill his seat, which might adversely affect things in Obama’s second term.
WaterGirl
@Violet: Sign me up! I would definitely watch any of the shows you describe in your second paragraph!
Yutsano
@WaterGirl: I’m famous for going out with my parents and picking the most expensive item on the menu. I of course share (we all do in my family) but I am always doing things like that. I do like a few expensive things, but in general I’m a tightwad.
Kathy in St. Louis
Probably a little late to be getting in on this one, but there is a careerist reason for this guy making this particular move. Cardinal George of Chicago is being treated for cancer and this guy, Jenke (sp?), and some guy in New Jersey have all been touting the tough line to get the attention of the conservatives at the Vatican who will be making the decision if George steps down or passes away. This guy has even worked out with the Blackhawks because he’s such a fan. So this is all part of the, “pick me, pick me” strategy of the climbers in the Church, I believe.
They are so incredibly transparent and such hypocrites.
Peregrinus
@Kathy in St. Louis:
Hell, I didn’t know that. The Bishop of Peoria is Jenky, if that’s who you meant, and just looking him up makes me gag. As we say back home: qué pendejo.
God, I’m glad the Jesuits snapped me up instead of another order. At least the priests at work are fully aware of the exact dimensions of the dickheads they technically have to obey.
lahru
As a Catholic I have left the church by tearing my shirt and not concerned about them.
The Catholic church is some thing that does not deserve my time, efforts or money.
As a previous alter boy the church I loved let me down with their greed and shelter provided to child molesters.
Like alot of what we used to believe they turn out to nothing but a money machine providing for certain members at the expense of the many.
I am glad they allowed myself to do other things on Sunday mornings.
Violet
@WaterGirl: I really think there’s an opportunity for one of the Sunday Shows to break away from the pack by mixing it up. I know they’re about cozying up to power and selling Republican talking points. But they’re a TV network. If they got a lot of buzz for their new Sunday show, drew in new viewers–say, younger viewers, maybe minorities–they could sell that to advertisers. Plus, it would give them authority in their other news shows where politics intersects: “We’re the leader in politics.”
Right now, all the shows are the same. One host, mostly Republican guests, roundtable discussions. They’re just copies of each other. Totally new style, faster-paced, less room for talking points, maybe bring in a policy wonk to fact-check on-site in real time or at the end of the show. Something to make people want to watch and make it easier for viewers to learn something.
J R in WV
@burnspbesq:
You may be correct in a legalistic respect, but that doesn’t make you right in the moral sense. If this arrogant, condescending, repugnant bully can make threats of hellfire against voters who don’t agree with him, he shouldn’t be able to conduct that activity tax free, from a moral perspective. Because it is political speech from his bully pulpit, and he is a bully, and I am using the phrase in that sense.
Kathy in St. Louis
@Peregrinus: I believe Jenky waddled to the pulpit and called Obama the new Hitler, or some such, during his tirade. He needs to put down the sandwich and actually do something about restoring the reputation of the hierarchy, if it’s possible, instead of playing politics.
shortstop
@burnspbesq: He’s correct, Amanda. This actually falls into the plumply stuffed category of “Burns becomes enraged that a) someone said they’d like to violently attack/prosecute/publicly humiliate a rapist of children or b) someone allegedly incorrectly or incompletely described tax law.”
With Burns, the real story in RCC threads is always about what he doesn’t say and the victims he doesn’t defend.
Peregrinus
@Kathy in St. Louis:
Oh, I saw. The sad part is that he probably thinks that is restoring the reputation of the hierarchy.
These fuckers should all be sent to do enforced missionary work in Africa or Southeast Asia. Well, no, because then they’d cause damage there, as well – but while I think previous generations of Catholic clergy were still hidebound pro-lifers, the ones who’d served more places than in the USA had a very different balancing scheme going between social justice and social conservatism.
J R in WV
@Anya:
You’re missing that the Secretary of state is a well known, even famous blond white lady. The UN lady on the other hand is darker, even black. So obviously everything wrong is her fault, right? Her and Obama, the other black one. Right?
Racist basturds.
Kathy in St. Louis
@Peregrinus: The condition of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, especially, the American branch, is a direct effect of the lack of vocations. When you have a much smaller pool to choose from, the biggest toadies rise to the top. And I think that the UCCB features so many of those. I saw a picture in my local newspaper of Cardinal Raymond Burke, formerly of our diocese, who is now helping to pick bishops. He was dressed as one of the Medicis, as close as I could tell. The big red hat, velvet gloves a dress with a train. And this neocon is picking future bishops. So, the church has no where to go but down, down, down. The people just ain’t buying it.
Peregrinus
@Kathy in St. Louis:
Agreed, but I think this generation of leadership would be like this even if there were a veritable cornucopia of warm bodies waiting in the wings. I think it’s the next generation of priests where the lack of vocations is going to have a direct and more readily seen effect.
Anya
@Jay C: I am fairly confident that Massachusetts will not make that mistake again.
Peter
@burnspbesq:
“If the law supposes that … the law is a ass” – Dickens
This is political speech from the pulpit and endorsement of a candidate by any sane measure, regardless of how hard he tries to cover his ass by insisting that he isn’t.
lahru
So!
The Catholic Church favors the assumed welfare of the unborn at the expense of the born.
Very WTF
A moocher
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: thank you.
Tax accounting is to Mathematics as shade tree bicycle mechanics is to theoretical physics. And I am being generous here.
Kathy in St. Louis
@Peregrinus: Probably correct. My father was in the seminary for 6 years. They sent him home with the admonition that they would rather see him be a first-rate plumber than a second rate priest. After my dad died, I worked in a Catholic high school and saw the newly ordained priest that we were issued. Lord, my father would have spun in his grave to see how low the bar and been set.
Well, it worked out well for me and my siblings, and though my dad was pretty religious, I don’t think he would have been a very good priest. He was, however, a wonderful man and a pretty decent father.
WaterGirl
@Violet: I pretty much agree with everything you said.
Have you tried watching UP with Chris Hayes? I ask because a lot of what you are saying reminds me of UP. I think they were smart to put him on both weekend mornings, very early, so there wasn’t a lot of hype.
Chris Hayes has now been on for one year and I think it’s a terrific show. Up should be what Meet the Press used to be, in terms of standing and respect.
He often has one or two republicans (more likely one) in his 4-person roundtable, and it’s a thing of beauty to watch someone come in and try to spew their talking points – they usually get knocked down right away.
And I always learn a ton.
r€nato
I’m not saying that we should tax all the fucking moocher churches who pay NO property taxes, no taxes on the tithes they collect, no income taxes.
I’m just saying, RULE OF LAW! RULE OF LAW! RULE OF LAW!
If a church has clearly trampled all over its non-profit status by being engaged in political activities, then the law should be enforced. That’s all I’m saying.
r€nato
@lacp: He knows he’s untouchable. The Catholics – from the Vatican to the US bishops to the Opus Dei cultists to the laity, even the liberal ones – would scream bloody murder if, you know, the law was actually applied to them.
Chris
@Kathy in St. Louis:
At this point, I think it’s the same vicious cycle that you see in the Republican Party. With the bad people running the show, more and more good people keep trickling out (of the institution if not the group), which means there’s less and less opposition to the bad people as time goes on.
Peregrinus
@Kathy in St. Louis:
If they allowed married clergy, I’d already be in the seminary – I didn’t want to take the easy way out by becoming an Episcopalian priest and then “converting.” Didn’t seem the honest thing to do.
That said, I agree with @Chris here. The good priests are mostly gone. I fully expect to be in some other denomination by the time I’m 45. Right now I’m lucky that I’ve got one of the few sane dioceses in America left, but that’s not going to last long since the Catholics here have no idea how good they’ve got it.
Triassic Sands
Once a religiloid mentions an issue, a preference, and a party name, he/she’s crossed the line.
Vote for a Republican or suffer eternal damnation, but I’m not telling you whom to vote for.
I wish the IRS would do its job.
Wouldn’t this guy be happier living in Vatican City?
scav
@Triassic Sands: Wouldn’t this guy be happier living in Vatican City?
Very likely that’s the entirely personal subtext under and behind why he’s saying this. see 98@Kathy in St. Louis above.
JoyfulA
@burnspbesq: The Episcopalian Church and the United Church of Christ had IRS investigations opened against them for much less in the GWB era.
Ash Can
@Kathy in St. Louis:
That’s an excellent point, and one I hadn’t thought of. The out-of-the-blue public nuttiness of this guy and Jenky makes a lot more sense in that light.
Kathy in St. Louis
@Peregrinus: They are working the few good priest who are left to death. They can’t allow these old guys to retire because the bishops have no one to replace them. So, this decision on a married clergy hurts the people, by closing parishes, the decent clergy that’s left, by working them into the ground, and the reputation of the Church by making it appear that we’re nuts to allow them to run it this way. Gotta say, it’s really not my problem anymore, in the sense that after a lifetime as a Catholic, I sort of quit calling myself one earlier this year due to the combination of the handling of the pedophile scandal, the treatment of the nuns, and their lack of interest in the needs of living human beings rather than potential human beings. Oh, and don’ anybody ever tell me how to vote.
Kathy in St. Louis
@Chris: There actually does seem to be a recurrenc of the Catholic vote over the past few years….just not exactly the way you mean. There are a considerable number of people who still call themselves Catholic who wouldn’t vote the way that the good bishop, above, suggests, just because he suggested it. The bishops have lost all moral authority and are looking for an issue that will bring it back for them. Too late. Once you’ve lost the trust of the people, it’s not coming back.
equs_personus
WaterGirl, @Violet, regard MTP etc being unwatchable: maybe someday they will be watchable, but for now you can save time reading the excellent summaries at The Bobblespeak Translations.
Tony
It’s happening all over!
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/09/27/Black-Bishop-Rips-Dem-Party