I think all men remember when Dad sat us down and had the talk, and it went something like this:
He also told me one thing, ‘If you do (have premarital sex), just remember, consensual sex can turn into rape in an awful hurry,’ ” Rivard said. “Because all of a sudden a young lady gets pregnant and the parents are madder than a wet hen and she’s not going to say, ‘Oh, yeah, I was part of the program.’ All that she has to say or the parents have to say is it was rape because she’s underage. And he just said, ‘Remember, Roger, if you go down that road, some girls,’ he said, ‘they rape so easy.’
That’s Roger Rivard, Republican State Assembly member from Wisconsin. And then there’s pro-life US Rep Scott DesJarlais, a physician who had an affair with one of his patients:
“You told me you’d have an abortion, and now we’re getting too far along without one,” DesJarlais tells the woman at one point in the call while negotiating with her over whether he’ll reveal her identity to his wife. They then discuss whether he will accompany her to a procedure to end the sort of life the congressman now describes as “sacred.”
“You told me you would have time to go with me and everything,” the woman complains.
“I said, if I could, I would, didn’t I? And I will try,” DesJarlais says. “If I can [find] time, you’re saying you still will?”
I agree with Atrios on this one. Very few people wouldn’t consider an abortion under the right circumstances, their “principled opposition” to abortion be damned.
Baud
Principles work best when they apply to other people.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
The young lady making that claim had better be sure her studmuffin didn’t video them. Being caught on tape checking your watch in the middle of the act kind of puts paid to any such claim.
c u n d gulag
Ah, what sage fatherly advice – ‘some girls, they rape so easy.’
I mean WTF?
Do we wonder why so many of today’s Conservatives are fecked-up?
The turds don’t fall far from the sphincter!
And as for that DesJarlais creep, he and other people with money and power will never have to worry about it if they pass laws against abortions in this country for the little people.
They’ll have their own little “special” clinics, or send the “offending” woman to some country to abort the child – while poor women die after back-street, or DIY at home, abortions.
Kind of like “The Good Old Days.”
Sociopaths! The whole lot of them – SOCIOPATHS!
Mino
Booman has an interesting take on the insistance of conservatives that some rapes are falsified. It involves their conservative community that hates on the girl, giving her a real good reason to scapegoat.
Liberal communities seem to be substantially different.
jurassicpork
What I’m amazed at is the MSM’s “principled opposition” to not talking about the Romney relative that had died decades ago after an illegal abortion. You only hear about it whispered among liberal blogs and that’s it.
Meanwhile, on the home front, this is fixing to be the scariest Halloween ever.
ericblair
@Baud:
Sure, but it’s hard to get traction with a hypocrisy argument with people who are relentlessly tribal. They did it out of necessity, because they’re Good People and things happen, you know? On the other hand, Those People did it because they’re irresponsible, Godless, and lazy. You can point out the hypocrisy until you’re blue in the face, but it won’t matter because it is different when they do it, you know.
Ash Can
Actually, Roger, “some boys” just hate women.
arguingwithsignposts
@jurassicpork: you really are like clockwork with that stuff.
Hal
What any woman would do when faced with the choice is always theoretical. That’s what irritates the hell out of me about the “pro-life” lobby. Sure you’re opposed to abortion now, but I wonder how many of these principled men and women change their minds when it’s their life, or the life of their loved one at stake. Or, when you’re very principled and moral dick wondered into a place it shouldn’t have.
Pretty easy to be pro-life when either you can’t get pregnant (being a guy and all), or you’re simply not pregnant.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
I hate to defend Roger Rivard that much, and I won’t go too far, but yes, some dads do have that very talk with their sons. The last phrase may be a little clunky, but this is the talk some dads give to their boys to scare them out of having sex before marriage.
hep kitty
PIGS
arguingwithsignposts
@Mino:
This is really an excellent point. Fundamentalists don’t see women as maybe enjoying sex (outside the bonds of marriage), or having any sort of personal autonomy. If they have sex, it must have been the guy sweet talking them and putting them under his sway.
Chyron HR
The demo tape of California Girls needed a lot of polishing.
Cassidy
OT: I’m gonna do some slight spamming over the next few months and I apologize in advance. My Firefighter class has to do a service project as part of our course. It’s not in the curriculum, but our Chief thinks it’s important to remind everyone we’re supposed to be role models and public servants; I agree with the sentiment. So, my class has chosen this one. I personally don’t have any attachment to lung cancer other than my continual fight to quit smoking, but this is what my class voted on. We’re doing the “Fight for Air” climb in February 2013 and between now and then we’re trying to raise $100 or more per person. If you have some spare change that you haven’t allotted for political races, would you consider it? Thank you.
ETA: Forgot to mention what we’re doing. Your donation buys you a small part of misery on my part. We’ll be climbing 42 floors/ flights of stairs in full bunker gear and air pack.
Hal
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
I believe my friends father’s advice to their sons boiled down to “use a condom” and their “advice” to their daughters was “you’re not allowed to date until your 30.”
hep kitty
Um, in the Huffpo article, I love how the dude recorded the conversation, thinking it would benefit keeping his marriage together. XD
What an utter idiot. These pieces of garbage (I will not call them “men”) belong in nastiest trailer parks imaginable, not the halls of goverment
FILTHY DISGUSTING HYPOCRITICAL PIECES OF MOIST PUTRID GARBAGE & HUMAN WASTE BUZZING WITH BLUE-FLIES AND CRAWLING WITH MAGGOTS.
(I retract my previous comment was a horrible , unforgivable insult to pigs)
Cassidy
Oh come on now….no one’s ever gotten the “it’s only rape if she can say no, so hold your hand over her mouth” talk? Where have our values gone?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Hal: There was a case recently, and I forget if it was here in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area or not, but a girl accused a guy of rape, the DA went after him, and then when she said she’d lied, the DA still went after the guy.
Hypatia's Momma
Sounds as if certain politicians are spending their time hanging around the Reddit MRA sub-forums.
Kane
I wonder how many Dads actually have such a talk with their sons. I could be wrong, but I’m guessing that such talks and other birds and the bees conversations happen more in the movies than they do in real life.
hep kitty
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): You’d think the possibility of an unwanted pregnancy would do the trick.
Bostondreams
Uh, I believe, dear Roger, that if she IS underage, it technically IS rape, isn’t it? I could be wrong however.
Flying Squirrel Girl
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I’m from Dallas, sounds plausible. A conviction’s a conviction you know.
Cassidy
@hep kitty: The guys don’t typically deal with that. It’s an abstract concept to young boys and honestly isn’t one that comes immediately to mind when the chance to get laid arises.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Bostondreams: Only if he’s not underage. In most places, at least.
Snarki, child of Loki
@Bostondreams: “Uh, I believe, dear Roger, that if she IS underage, it technically IS rape, isn’t it? I could be wrong however.”
Well, there’s underage, and then there’s ARKANSAS underage.
Lurking Canadian
@Bostondreams: Some jurisdictions have special provisions that make it not statutory rape if both parties are underage, or have some kind of sliding scale. 14&14 Ok. 18&14 illegal.
And for the record, if my Dad had ever had any kind of The Talk with me, it would have been “if you have sex before you are married, you will go to Hell.”. I am aware of the traditional sexual double standard, but it did not apply in my house.
PurpleGirl
Gee, why can’t the Dads give their sons the advice my mother gave me: (1) If you can’t be good, be careful. (2) Remember be prepared.
Bernard Finel
This is part of the general conservative inversion of reality.
They think the real problem with racism is that white people (particularly men) are discriminated against by affirmative action.
They think the real problem with income distribution in the United States is that the rich are too heavily burdened and as a result unwilling to “create jobs.”
And similarly, they think the real problem with rape is that women use the accusation of rape as a weapon against men in domestic disputes.
What it always comes down to in right-wing rhetoric is the belief that, somehow, the hardest thing to be in America is a well-to-do, white man. It is just weird, weird, weird.
Frankensteinbeck
@Hal:
See @arguingwithsignposts. Our society’s paradigm belief is that sex is a process where men prey on women. One of the many fucked up ways people respond to that is by being terrified of their daughters being used the way they personally use women. Way too many people could fit invisibly into a sitcom.
EDIT – Per the OP, another permutation is ‘I don’t want the prey able to fight back.’
Cassidy
@PurpleGirl: That’s what I do. I wouldn’t lump us all together. :D
I teach my kids some very fundamental skills:
1) How to do your own laundry.
2) Flush the toilet.
3) Brush your teeth.
4) how to jab, cross, takedown, and choke.
5) If you ain’t cheatin’, you ain’t tryin’. If you get caught cheatin’, you weren’t tryin’ hard enough. (Of course this applicable only in certain circumstances).
Once they get older we’ll get into drinking good beer, using condoms, how to shoot, etc.
muddy
I know a woman who had an abortion because she cheated on her husband and didn’t know which was the father, and was afraid the child might look like the boyfriend. A decade later she had a hysterectomy and then after that she was very strongly against abortion under any circumstances as she would never need it again herself. Her church told her, and she informed me, that most women do it as a no-fuss no-muss variation of birth control.
I said what bullshit, how is an abortion easier and cheaper than birth control? And what did her church have to say about cheating? She doesn’t speak to me now.
debit
@arguingwithsignposts: I thought I was the only one who noticed.
Laura
I don’t understand cases like this. I’m fortunate to have never experienced any sort of sexual assault, but saying you got raped and going through all the police procedures and possible trial seems way more traumatic than just saying you had some sex with a guy and regretted it. I can’t imagine these cases are all too common.
BretH
Rivard puts it horribly, but the truth is, a 15 year old boy is a very dangerous thing to be, and a tag of “sex offender” is very hard if not impossible to get rid of.
How many older people can remember “fooling around” when they were 15-16, and the partner was 15-16?
These days that can get you in a lot of trouble.
“More than a third of sex crimes against juveniles are committed by juveniles, according to new research commissioned by the Justice Department.
Juveniles are 36% of all sex offenders who victimize children. Seven out of eight are at least 12 years old, and 93% are boys, says the study by the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire.”
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-01-03-kid-sex-offenders_N.htm?csp=34&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+usatoday-NewsTopStories+(News+-+Top+Stories)
muddy
My poor son had to get the talk (actually many tiny talks over years) from his mom. My main advice was try never do anything you will be ashamed of later, and have respect for yourself and your partner. And that birth control is always your responsibility, none of this, “She said she was protected” BS.
I heard later the part that really made him cringe was when I told him he was welcome to help himself out of the little basket of condoms and that I didn’t count them to check up (I had gone back to school and would get random handfuls of singlets free at the health center). Not sure why that was the worst part, I just thought it would avoid the embarrassment of buying them himself.
He and his gf were also amazed to hear that you could get genital herpes if someone has a cold sore and gives oral. I asked what the hell do they teach you in school? They were told just not to do it. At 17, right….
TooManyJens
By Atrios’ standard, there is no genuine principled opposition to almost anything. Put any of us in sufficiently extreme circumstances, and we wouldn’t believe the shit we’d do.
That said, a supposedly “pro-life” lawmaker who pressures his mistress to have an abortion to cover up an affair is still a hypocritical dickbag.
Soonergrunt
@PurpleGirl: That was pretty much the discussion my dad had with me. That, and “YOU, and you alone, are 100% responsible for anything you do or fail to do.” He also talked a lot about respect for myself and others.
arguingwithsignposts
Also per my previous comment, i clearly remember – after too many years in fundamentalism, a failed marriage and divorce – my then girlfriend saying, “you’re going to be surprised how many women enjoy having sex.”
Sly
The only remotely sexual talk my father gave me was him telling me at age 13 that “you gotta watch out for those queers” when it became public that a local kid, and an acquaintance of mine, had been molested by his stepfather. I remember thinking “that’s a really stupid fucking thing to say” at the time and, as an adult, I’m rather glad that this was the only piece of sage advice I received from the font of sexual wisdom known as Dad.
That could be one of the core distinctions between conservatives and normal people; the former never quite internalize the fact that their parents were often crackpots.
Soonergrunt
@Laura: It depends on the circumstances but it’s probably more common than you would think.
Sly
@muddy:
I think I’ll spare the snark and just say that the last thing a man wants to think about when he’s putting on a condom is “Mom.”
Gian
@Bostondreams:
if the boy is underage too, it’s rape for both of them.
if that happens and they both take the 5th, how does that work?
gene108
Wonder why he couldn’t get his mistress an abortion in Tennessee?
I wish scum like this were broke and had to struggle with the crap they make other people suffer.
Hillary Rettig
> Very few people wouldn’t consider an abortion under the right circumstances, their “principled opposition” to abortion be damned.
This is a subset of their larger behavior. I’ve never met a conservative who, when under difficult circumstances, didn’t crave the same empathy and compassion and understanding they readily and reflexively deny to everyone else.
Patricia Kayden
@muddy: You know some interesting women. Sounds like Bristol Palin having sex, getting pregnant, having the baby, and then getting paid to talk about abstinence.
1badbaba3
@Sly: Could be worse. Not listening to ‘mom’ about protection could lead to asking ‘grandma’ to babysit while sonny goes to the Prom.
gene108
@TooManyJens:
Well the answer is simple.
He wasn’t pro-life 12 years ago. After his divorce, he had a come to Jesus moment. Therefore everything he did before is forgiven and there is no hypocrisy in his current pro-life position.
Seems to be the typical dodge of most right-wingers, who have pasts that conflict with their current set of family values.
TooManyJens
@gene108: Remember when Dr. Laura Schlessinger had those naked pictures come out? The ones that were taken when she was cheating on her husband? I’m still not over being pissed off about her excuse for that: “That happened when I was an atheist, so I didn’t have any morals.” Amazing how some of us actually manage to live decently without the external religous controls that our supposed betters require to keep them in line.
I would also add that if he’s claiming he was pro-choice at the time, trying to force someone to have an abortion isn’t exactly pro-choice. I’m sticking with “hypocritical dickbag.”
muddy
@Patricia Kayden: I have people say the most outrageous things to me! I don’t start shit, but I do like to finish it. Not all of these conversations were just recently.
A few years ago I was sweeping the porch and a young woman from down the street decided to introduce herself by asking if I were pregnant. I am clearly *well* into middle age. I said, No I guess I’m just fat. Undeterred, she asked if I went to church. I said, No. She asks brightly, Do you want to? I said there were 5 churches within a mile of my house, clearly I could go if I had a mind to.
Whenever I saw her she’d pop off with this kind of stuff. I mentioned a young relative who was coming to visit with her partner. This girl makes a bad face and then says, Well I hate the sin but love the sinner. I said it’s not a sin unless that is your religious belief, sins are not laws. And anyway why does God make people that are inherently sinful, you’d think if he didn’t like that he wouldn’t do it in the first place. (not that I believe in gods anyway)
She never spoke to me again either. In this way I whittle my acquaintance down bit by bit. ;-)
Bubblegum Tate
Remember: the only moral abortion is my abortion.
Unsympathetic
They do have principled opposition to abortion – for people like us who are part of the 47% they don’t care about. Also, too, they’re Galtian elites and so the rules are different.
Also, they’re white. Why does this matter? Because shut up.
Roy G.
And yet, these people don’t want birth control taught in school, except the nonsensical ‘abstinence only’ variety. It’s almost like they want you to be stupid and get in trouble, which is a very perverse form of control indeed.
Woodrowfan
@muddy:
I love you!
Jay in Oregon
@ericblair:
“The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion”
EDIT: @Bubblegum Tate beat me to it, I see.
muddy
@Woodrowfan: Thank you! The stupid people don’t. ;-)
BillCinSD
@Chyron HR: I think you meant Try a Little Tenderness
celticdragonchick
@c u n d gulag:
Unfortunately, a fair number of African American men have found out the hard way that consensual sex with a white woman (particularly in the South) can turn into “rape” very quickly if she turns up pregnant or somebody sees the guy leaving out the back door…
I don’t think that is so much a problem today, but it has been in the past.
Another Halocene Human
@arguingwithsignposts: Fundamentalists don’t see women as maybe enjoying sex (outside the bonds of marriage), or having any sort of personal autonomy. If they have sex, it must have been the guy sweet talking them and putting them under his sway.
Au contraire, women are weak, like Eve, and lead men into sin. That’s why they have to be chaperoned aggressively. Otherwise they will bring shame upon the head of their fathers.
Another Halocene Human
@BretH:
You wouldn’t be so blase about this if you saw my red county police blotters. 17, 18 yo males raping “child under the age of 12”. And it gets worse.
Some of these boys may have been molested themselves, perhaps others saw their fathers or other males getting away with it. It is so prevalent you have to wonder if there isn’t some learned behavior here.
Victims have voices, too. Getting raped, even impregnated as a child is not some sort of weekend lark, and let’s not forget some of these “poor, poor boys” will try to intimidate their victims or even murder them to avoid being found out.
Another Halocene Human
@Gian: You might have a point when you bring up the ludicrously overzealous laws against making sexual videos of minors, which have ensnared many a teenager who took video or photos of themselves.
But crap like this just reveals you to be an MRA troll. Almost every state has exclusions for close in age, consensual behavior. It’s determined by age brackets and it may be argued that some states’ age brackets are inappropriate. However, a 13yo and a 3yo are both underage and you’re not going to convince me that the 13yo does not need to be adjudicated.
Our juvenile system sucks, too, but that’s an argument for another time.