Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Republicans do not pay their debts.

The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

Let there be snark.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Come on, man.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

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126Comments

  3. 3.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Too small to have its own gravitational field. Are you sure it is a cat? Perhaps I shouldn’t use Tunch as my frame of reference.

  4. 4.

    Violet

    What a beautiful kitty. Those eyes are gorgeous.

    Since this is an open thread, what I posted downstairs is a better fit here. Went to dinner last night and one of the women is the very definition of a swing voter. She voted Obama last time, and is unsure of who she’ll vote for this time. Her vote doesn’t matter in this blood red state, but even so I’d like some input on what she said. Here’s copied from below:

    She is about to have to resort to Medicaid for an elderly family member who has run out of money, and yet somehow doesn’t see the Romney/Ryan plan as a problem. She claims that the tax hit they’ll take with Obama will offset any benefit from Medicaid for her family member, so it’s a wash. (They’d be stuck supporting this family member unless they go with Medicaid.) She claims she “ran the numbers.” I simply can’t believe that. I know her husband has a good job, but I still can’t imagine that puts them in the 1% range of folks who would benefit from the Romney/Ryan plan.

    Can anyone enlighten me on this? I don’t have enough understanding of exactly what income level would benefit from the Romney/Ryan plan and exactly how much per year Medicaid benefits are–for an apples to apples type comparison.

  7. 7.

    Hill Dweller

    @Violet: People start from a pre-determined position, and then work back from there. Obama’s proposed 3% tax increase on income over $250,000 won’t touch the increase in costs they’ll face from a decimated Medicaid.

  8. 8.

    Maude

    @Violet:
    The simple version. If Romney and a Republican Congress get elected, they will remove the funding from Medicaid and the states won’t be able to provide it. No Medicaid. It’s not an exaggeration.

  9. 9.

    ThresherK

    Blue eyes and a trace of point-coloring; do I see a bit of Siamese in the ancestry?

    And is this a “pay attention to me” or “it’s warm therefore it’s my spot” laptop splat?

  13. 13.

    kindness

    Chica appears to be grading papers. Is that what this world has come to? When are we going to offer decent working conditions and wages for our feline family?

    Oh the humanity…

  17. 17.

    gogol's wife

    @Violet:

    Then how could she possibly be expecting that her taxes would go up by thousands of dollars a month?

    ETA: And how can there be any assets if they’re going to resort to Medicaid? The assets are supposed to be gone in order to qualify.

  18. 18.

    catclub

    @Maude: I agree with the general idea. IN the implementation, old white folks may not be the group most seriously targeted for the worst of the Medicaid cuts. Planned parenthood will probably get that honor.

    Just a thought.

  19. 19.

    Linda Featheringill

    @Violet:

    One problem with Medicaid for end of life care is that you have to use up all your resources before you qualify for assistance. If you have modest means, that’s not an issue. For example, the elderly family member mentioned above has run out of money and is considering Medicaid.

    How much it would cost your friend without Medicaid? Assuming that she and her husband really care for this family member, she’d better be ready to fork over 120,000 to 150,000 a year for nursing home care if that’s what the relative needs.

    About that good job the hubby has. Obama’s increase in taxes would only apply to income above a certain level [200,000?], not to the entire income. I wonder how much hubby is actually bringing in.

    ETA:
    Hilldweller says the cutoff point is 250,000.

  21. 21.

    danimal

    @Violet: @Violet: Don’t waste your time with the numbers. She’s lying to herself, to you, or is so stinking rich it doesn’t matter. As already stated, the cost of monthly nursing home care absolutely dwarfs any increase in taxes.

  22. 22.

    Violet

    @Hill Dweller: Is Obama’s proposed tax increase of 3% only an increase on a portions of it–marginal tax rate–or on all of the $250K?

    I seriously haven’t studied it because I know how I’m voting. I should have done more homework.

    @Maude: I get that, but this friend is considering paying out of pocket for her family member’s nursing home needs. So the choice is pay themselves (therefore lower taxes would help them have more disposable income) or resort to Medicaid.

  23. 23.

    gogol's wife

    @Violet:

    For some reason my reply was removed for moderation. I don’t understand how your relative is going to “resort to Medicaid” if there are still assets. And how can she expect that she’s going to take a “tax hit” that will amount to thousands of dollars per month?

  25. 25.

    Hal

    @Violet:

    She claims that the tax hit they’ll take with Obama will offset any benefit from Medicaid for her family member, so it’s a wash. (They’d be stuck supporting this family member unless they go with Medicaid.)

    Romney’s plan raises taxes on the middle class 2000 per year. Also, I can’t imagine the expense of supporting an elderly relative being equal to any tax she might pay under an Obama plan.

    Oh, and it might also be hard to use medicaid if it no longer exits.

  27. 27.

    Violet

    @danimal: I don’t want to sell my friend short. She has an absolutely unbelievable amount of stuff on her plate. Caring for this family member (a legal obligation, btw) is just but one of them. She is not lying to herself or me–I truly think she doesn’t understand the numbers because she simply doesn’t have much spare time in which to research it. And as we know, there isn’t a lot of info from Romney’s side and the media doesn’t make finding real answers easy.

    If I had to deal with half the amount of crap she does, I’d probably be drooling somewhere in a corner. It’s kind of amazing she keeps it all together. So I do want to give her some credit. She’s not stupid. She’s seriously overworked pulled in about fifty directions with difficult decisions in all of them, where there is no good answer most of the time.

  30. 30.

    danimal

    @Maude: Race to the bottom, bitchez!

    Imagine if Medicaid is devolved to the states. Does the governor of Arizona want more generous benefits than those offered in New Mexico? Of course not, high-cost patients will just cross state lines to get the better benefits. So, understandably, states will pocket the block grant, provide either limited or extremely limited Medicaid benefits, and middle class families will be on the hook for grandpa’s nursing home costs. FREEDOM!

  31. 31.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Hal: To be fair, Romney’s plan doesn’t set out to raise taxes on the middle class by $2,000; it’s just that in order to keep the pledge of revenue neutrality, someone’s taxes have to go up. So either the pledge that no one’s taxes are going up is a lie, or the pledge of revenue neutrality is a lie.

  32. 32.

    Hill Dweller

    @Violet: It’s a marginal tax rate. Obama wants to raise it from 36% to 39% on income over $250,000. In other words, everyone in the country will get a tax break, but he is cutting it off at $250,000.

    That said, they might do something with the capital gains rate and try to do something on the carried interest loophole, which allows hedge fund guys to pay a 15% rate on millions of dollars, but I doubt that would apply to your friend.

  35. 35.

    The Red Pen

    Anybody want to be on “Biggest Lie of the Night”?

    My guess is Mitt Romney saying that he doesn’t drink the blood of human infants. Politifact will give him a “mostly true” because he absorbs it through a membrane in his thorax and that isn’t technically “drinking.”

  36. 36.

    Violet

    @gogol’s wife:

    I don’t understand how your relative is going to “resort to Medicaid” if there are still assets.

    This is not my relative–it’s a friend’s relative. The elderly family member is almost out of money. There is a tiny pension that will continue to come in, but will have to be turned over to Medicaid if the family member goes on Medicaid.

    And how can she expect that she’s going to take a “tax hit” that will amount to thousands of dollars per month?

    I have no idea. It just kind of came up–I started out with “as someone who has a family member considering Medicaid, you might want to look closely at what Romney/Ryan are planning to do it” and she claimed she had and the tax increase offset any benefit her family member would get from Medicaid. It was a wash. I didn’t quite know what to say because I don’t know how much money they have/earn.

  39. 39.

    cckids

    @Violet: I’m fairly sure the increase is marginal; to top rates only. So the amount will depend on how much they make.

    Nursing home costs will vary considerably depending on the level of care needed; they can count on at least $5000 a month for a decent place. More, much more, if the relative has medical issues that need nursing care.

    Depending on the state, there will be more beds available in better places if they are self-funding; most nursing homes limit the number of Medicaid patients they take in, because of the low reimbursement rates. Also, if they are self-funding, they will be able to deduct the medical expenses (not living expenses) they pay for their relative, which will lower their tax bill as well.

  41. 41.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Violet: Sounds to me like she’s doing a back-of-the-envelope calculation on X% of income, rather than X% of (income minus $250,000).

  42. 42.

    Violet

    @Cassidy: Not yet, but the relative has had some medical issues quite recently that meant hospitalization. That led to a discussion about what they might do the next time. At this point, though, there is no specific disease that is terminal that would point to hospice.

  44. 44.

    danimal

    @Violet: I don’t mean to insult your friend, but when she says she’s run the numbers, she simply hasn’t, unless her household income is several million dollars a year.

    Most people in crisis situations can not spend the time in actuarial analysis, and the media is simply incompetent in getting accurate information to voters. Romney’s gibberish is maddening because it confuses simple issues, but it’s obviously effective.

  45. 45.

    rlrr

    @cckids:

    they will be able to deduct the medical expenses (not living expenses) they pay for their relative, which will lower their tax bill as well.

    I bet that’s one of the “loopholes” Romney plans on closing…

  51. 51.

    Violet

    @cckids: Thanks. I didn’t know that about deducting medical expenses for a family member. I’ll pass that along. I think this family member has Medicare and would continue to have Medicare. I don’t understand enough the relationship between Medicare and Medicaid to know if they go with Medicaid, does the family member still have Medicare?

    @FlipYrWhig: That’s the impression I have. I might shoot her an email and make sure it’s clear so she can make the best choice.

  52. 52.

    shortstop

    @Linda Featheringill:

    One problem with Medicaid for end of life care is that you have to use up all your resources before you qualify for assistance. If you have modest means, that’s not an issue.

    Well, yes, it is an issue, a very big issue, because contrary to the GOP’s fantasy of exuberant moochers congratulating themselves on bilking the system, most people of “modest means” are not interested in having to go on general public assistance to get Medicaid. Once you’ve emptied the bank account, sold the car and gotten rid of your few other meager assets, including your dignity, you can have the Medicaid.

    How do I know? This has happened to three low-income acquaintances of mine. Medicaid is not set up to help the low-paid working/modestly saving population. You have to throw yourself into the ranks of the really poor to get help.

  53. 53.

    cckids

    The other thing to make her aware of is, again, depending on the state, the hits Medicaid will take under Romney/Ryan. Some states will have the will & the resources to keep up funding. Most will, either through necessity or uncaring, will further cut funding.

    I’m kind of passionate about Medicaid; it has kept my son alive for most of his life. I had insurance when he was born & they dropped him like a hot potato when he was diagnosed with severe CP. I’ve lived in 3 different states & seen, over 30 years, how the program is applied differently in each state. Also, how drastically it has changed over the past 8 years or so.

    The block grants Romney-Ryan want to use will open each state up to raiding by private companies who will “convince” the Republicans that they can run Medicaid better than any govt entity.

    They will be wrong, drastically so, and thousands of people will pay the price with their health & some of their lives.

  54. 54.

    Svensker

    @Violet:

    Violet, the additional tax would be an additional 3% of what their taxable income is over $250K. Say they are making $400K, their additional yearly tax would be 3% of $150K or $4500 more in tax per year under Obama’s plan.

    Nursing homes run somewhere around $10,000/month. She would have to be netting about $4,250,000 to come up an additional tax bill of $120,000/year.

  55. 55.

    Violet

    @danimal: I agree with you. She’s not helped by her husband who constantly bitches about how much they have to pay in taxes and her teabagger in-laws. The fact that she insists on making her own decision about who to vote for, given the challenging life she’s got (and has had for awhile), is impressive.

    Does anyone know if there is a website with actual info on how Obama’s tax increases would work? Like, it SHOWS the marginal tax rate increase over $250K and how that works?

    Additionally, a website explaining how Romney/Ryan would gut Medicaid would be helpful. I’d like to send her some factual stuff to back up what I’m saying.

  56. 56.

    Cassidy

    @Violet: For future reference, most insurance companies negotiate really great terms for hospice care as they don’t intend on paying them for very long. If he/she goes into hospice, she might consider placing them on her insurance. Also, United Way makes funds available to offset the difference based on the person’s income, not the caretaker’s. So, if/when it comes to that, those are some avenues she can explore.

    Secondly, If the relative is somewhat mobile and independent, just with limitations, in home caregivers may be a cheaper alternative than a nursing home. It really depends on how serious the case. If she’s only dealing with limited mobility, incontinence, wound care, etc., paying an hourly rate for a CNA/ MA might be better. If she has more serious medical conditions to work with, then you can still get LPN’s for in home care.

    Either way, there are lots of options beyond nursing homes and Medicaid. If she really wants to get into the nitty gritty of the projected costs, though, she needs to contact a home medical/ hospice agency and speak to the person who negotiates the insurance contracts.

  57. 57.

    ? Martin

    @Violet:

    Is Obama’s proposed tax increase of 3% only an increase on a portions of it—marginal tax rate—or on all of the $250K?

    Marginal. It only applies to income earned above the $250K line. All income earned below that line isn’t taxed any higher. If you earn $251K per year, you would pay the extra 3% only on that last $1000, or $30 more.

  58. 58.

    Maude

    @catclub:
    Disabled people on SSI get Medicaid, no Medicare. They’ll go down the crapper. Planed Parenthood, you are so right they’ll be hit very hard.

    @danimal:
    In NJ Christie lowered the amount of income for those who work from 24,000 to a bit over 5,000.
    If the Feds cut off the funding, the states won’t pay for Medicaid. They can’t and the Republican governors will X it out of the budget before you can say Romney/Ryan.

  59. 59.

    SenyorDave

    @danimal: Its very effective. What Romney does is say “I’ve got everything under control, you’ll all be better off”, and then throw enough numbers at people that some figure he knows what he’s talking about.

    EVERYTHING Romney and Ryan say about the economy is bullshit. Not some, but all of it. We can’t all be better off. They can’t even find conservative economists who buy into their plan. Thay have assumptions about unemployment rates that are absurdly low, and growth numbers that just can’t happen. And we have a media that now jokes about how often Romney lies, and that its no big deal.

    I truly don’t know how Obama effective can be in a debate against someone who will say anything, and sound fairly good saying it.

  61. 61.

    Violet

    @cckids: Thank you for this info. I’m glad Medicaid has been there for you and your son.

    Do you have any good links that would explain this whole Medicaid block grant easily to someone who is a time-pressed low info voter? I didn’t want to wade into it last night because it’s complicated and I don’t understand it well enough to explain it.

    @Svensker: Thanks for that. It’s an easy to understand explanation. I might send her that info.

  64. 64.

    ? Martin

    @Violet: Remember, in the US we NEVER divide taxpayers into categories. We only divide income. This was done so that you couldn’t soak the rich. You couldn’t tax their first $20K any higher than you tax someone only earning $20K. That’s the whole point of the design of the tax code. There is NEVER an incentive to earn less money. And deductions all come off of the top of your income, so you deduct the highest tax rate first.

    WAY too many people don’t understand this.

  66. 66.

    Maude

    @Maude:
    And on top of the basic Nursing Home care:
    Doctor’s visits
    Prescription meds.
    Any extra supplies used, adult diapers, for example.
    It mounts up in a hurry. You have to be rich to pay for it.

  67. 67.

    Violet

    @Maude: She knows exactly how much the current nursing home her relative is in costs. She pays the bills (out of the relative’s account) and has for years now.

  68. 68.

    cckids

    @Violet:

    I don’t understand enough the relationship between Medicare and Medicaid to know if they go with Medicaid, does the family member still have Medicare?

    Medicare will cover what it covers for everyone, it will be the primary payer; Medicaid fills in the gaps-it will cover nursing home costs, for instance, and be the secondary payer.

  69. 69.

    JCT

    @Southern Beale: This is a BFD, now here’s hoping that the Obama campaign rolls out the “They tried to keep you from voting and we stopped them, so be sure to VOTE.” ads.

  70. 70.

    FlipYrWhig

    @? Martin: I always think it sounds much more equitable to talk about taxing _dollars_ above $250K or whatever. Because that way it’s clear that it’s surplus money being taxed, not the money people live on. Of course that’s exactly why rich people and Republicans don’t allow it to be talked about that way.

  73. 73.

    rikyrah

    My Aunt, who has lived longer than I believe my cousin thought she would, has been moved to a second nursing home. My Aunt, used to be in a really really nice nursing home – 8k a month. She was there for seven years.

    Now, she’s just at an ok nursing home.- 5k per month.

    does your friend have that kind of money?

    if she doesn’t, tell her dumb ass she has no business voting for Willard.

  74. 74.

    catclub

    @Southern Beale: A victory!

    But the fact that it had to be decided by the SC is a travesty. Complaints about Frivolous litigation is another projection item for the GOP slideshow.

  75. 75.

    Violet

    @cckids: Thanks for the info. I know the relative is on Medicare and it’s Medicaid they’re looking at, but I wasn’t sure of the relationship between the two for older Americans.

  76. 76.

    rikyrah

    @Violet:

    block grant meants that the state is NOT required to use the money for Medicaid – they can use the money FOR ANYTHING THEY WANT.

    with NO FEDERAL OVERSIGHT.

  78. 78.

    Violet

    @rikyrah: We’ve had something along those lines of a conversation. She felt they could afford about what Medicaid was offering, at least for the time being. Then I mentioned increases in costs, because it’s not like that nursing home price is going to stay the same. That got her thinking a bit.

  82. 82.

    cckids

    @Cassidy:

    Secondly, If the relative is somewhat mobile and independent, just with limitations, in home caregivers may be a cheaper alternative than a nursing home. It really depends on how serious the case. If she’s only dealing with limited mobility, incontinence, wound care, etc., paying an hourly rate for a CNA/ MA might be better. If she has more serious medical conditions to work with, then you can still get LPN’s for in home care.

    While true, this will only work if the relative lives in the same town & the friend can check on him/her regularly (as in, several times a week). In-home care is a wonderful thing, but it takes A LOT of coordinating, and you are putting your relative’s health, comfort & life in the hands of some very low-paid people. The majority of them are fabulous, but some are doing the job because they can’t get anything else, and it shows in their manner & level of care. You have to worry about abuse, theft, etc.

    Also, from personal experience, so many home care assistants are living at the poverty level, they have real problems with reliable transportation. If the family member needs someone at her home to (for instance) help with toileting or eating in the morning, that can be a real issue.

  83. 83.

    Libby's Person

    Gack. I have to remember to avoid TPM for a while – I don’t have the energy to deal with scary poll headlines. Rather than waste energy stressing out, I plan to volunteer for GOTV at least twice a week from here on out, and I’m going to cast my vote this Saturday during an Early Voting Festival.

    I’m confident that Obama will do his part tonight. He is a very competitive kind of guy, and he hates to lose anything. He’s got something to prove now, so he’ll be 100% there tonight.

  85. 85.

    NotMax

    @rikyrah

    Also too, that if the yearly grant funding runs dry by say, 3 months before the new fiscal year begins, recipients are up the creek without a paddle (or a boat) for that period.

  86. 86.

    Elizabelle

    @Violet:

    Do you have a sense why she voted for Obama in 2008, and seems to be considering Romney in ’12?

    Was she expecting magic?

  87. 87.

    PurpleGirl

    @Violet: Under a block grant the federal government would just give the state an amount of money. Although stated purposes would be the medical expenses of the poor and elderly, the state would be able to spend it any way they want to. It could fill any hole in a state budget and never be used for the medical care of the poor and elderly.

  89. 89.

    Ruckus

    @shortstop:
    Both of my parents had this problem. For my dad, his assets were his SS payments and medicare. So he was able to get medicaid for most of his last 10yrs in a nursing home. My mom had to deplete all her assets, (she had gotten the house and was relatively frugal) which she of course was able to do being old and needing care. Her last 5 yrs she used medicaid as well.
    Violet If your friend has millions then she might, just might be better off paying and taking the tax deduction. However she has to spend what, ten percent of income to use that so if costs were $100,000 their income would have to be $1,000,000. Besides the relative is the one with the assets not your friends so unless they are legally obligated to care for this person would their assets even come into the picture? The relative may be eligible for medicaid even if they are not. Now maybe they don’t like that level of care and want to provide more.

  90. 90.

    Violet

    @Elizabelle: Her number one issue was healthcare. She could see that if she didn’t have her husband’s health insurance, she’d be up shit creek. She wanted health care to be available to everyone and Obama said he would do that. She said she’s happy he got it done and thinks she should reward him with her vote.

    However, the tax thing….

    @cckids: Her realtive is already in a nursing home, so in-home care isn’t an option unless the relative moves in with them, which I don’t think they can take (have done it, was a disaster for their marriage). So I think a nursing home is the only option. The relative is somewhat independent, but needs a lot of help. Things like medications have to be doled out, and the relative can’t go places alone, etc.

  91. 91.

    ? Martin

    @cckids: I’m not sure I would try in-home care without a house with a mother-in-law apartment or the equivalent. Truth is, in the 60s we changed how we build communities assuming that Medicare and Social Security and nursing homes would allow us to just hand off our parents.

    My 140 years ago my family settled in Brooklyn and rented an apartment in a brownstone there. As relatives came over, they rented others on the same block. Eventually, they saved up enough to buy one, and consolidated the family, with the oldest relative living on the first floor and the kids upstairs. They bought more on the same block over time, eventually (through marriages and whatnot) owning nearly the entirety of one entire city block. Caring for family was easy – you’d just move them into one of the many ground apartments, and hire one or more of the family to caregive who could just walk up and down the block and take care of everyone. In addition to older family members, we had family who lost mobility during WWII who needed care. You could do that arrangement very inexpensively. You couldn’t duplicate that here in SoCal or in most parts of the country. When my FIL was getting older, we looked into buying a house with an attached apartment – there were nearly none to be found, mostly because nobody zones multi-family unless they’re zoning for a huge apartment complex.

    With my mom, there’s a high chance we’ll sell our house and hers and find a parcel of land and build our own place, or a place that could be renovated in that way. There’s so few existing ones to buy.

  92. 92.

    hep kitty

    @Violet: Honestly, for someone that stupid, I don’t know if I’d waste my time/breath.

    No tax break can compare to the cost of health care, which is still rising, unless you are indeed a filthy rich person who can pay all that elderly person’s medical bills w/o the help of Mcaid. And nursing home care?? Good lord, how does she have sense enough to come in out of the rain?

  93. 93.

    Violet

    @rikyrah: Thank you! I’ll have a look at those and send on relevant ones. I want to do my best to provide sort of non-partisan, middle of the road stuff. Although the barackobama.com tax calculator is golden.

  94. 94.

    PurpleGirl

    @Violet: Yes, she will still have Medicare. Medicare will continue to be her general insurance for health costs — medicines and doctors visits, etc. Medicare does not pay for nursing home costs, however.

    Medicaid will cover the costs of nursing home care.

    It’s two different pots of money which pay for different things.

  97. 97.

    Violet

    @hep kitty: The relative has Medicare, so that should cover some of the health care costs, although not all.

    I want to make sure my friend has the right info. As I said above, she is under tremendous amounts of stress, with the sort of stuff thrust upon her at a very young age that would break most people. Being responsible for this family member is only one thing.

    Good info is hard to come by. The media doesn’t help. You have to know where to go and look, and when your time is consumed by other things that absolutely cannot wait, you don’t necessarily get the best info.

  98. 98.

    hep kitty

    @rikyrah:

    if she doesn’t, tell her dumb ass she has no business voting for Willard.

    Indeed, you don’t have to “run numbers” on this.

    It’s just plain old common sense. No analysis necessary. Unless this lady, rich or not, wants to end up shelling out her own cash, and lots of it. No one can predict what kind of surgery or treatment the elderly relative may need nor the cost thereof!

  99. 99.

    Cassidy

    @cckids: To be fair, I was assuming a relative closeness. Are there circumstances where mostly unknown relatives take care of others over long distance like that? I just assumed that geography and familiarity are fairly close.

    As for HHA, in some cases you’re right, but I think you’re not considering a few more factors. A lot of them can’t afford to go back to school. They qualify economically, but the time commitment is too much. I know an LPN who is finally getting the chance to go RN after raising her family.

    Now, something interesting here in Florida, in Duval County we have a magnet program and two schools with a medical focus. Darnell-Cookman is an advanced school with a curriculum designed for the students to go into college and grad school and become medical professionals. They have no bussing so the parents either work nearby or one parent makes enough money for the other to stay home and drive the student to school every day. IMO, it’s effectively a public private school. The other is Andrew Jackson. It is the worst school in Florida. No bullshit, “F” rating and all. Their Health Sciences curriculum gives you a CNA accreditation upon completion. It’s in “the” downtown, urban area. When you think about it, you can’t help but get angry.

  100. 100.

    imonlylurking

    @Violet: Hi Violet.

    Two things-I have a friend right now who is dealing with family in this situation. I just asked her how much her dad’s bill is and she said around $6,000 a month. This is in rural Minnesota-depending on where your friend lives, the bill may be substantially higher.

    Second-
    I just threw together a spreadsheet with tax rates and income brackets, with 2011 rates and the proposed rates for Obama’s tax plan. Using 1 million dollars as taxable income, figuring married filing together, for 2011 the total tax is 319,871.50. Assuming the new tax rates start Jan 1, the total tax would be 357,335.50. The difference is 37,464 which is a bit over 6 months of nursing home bills at the rate my friend is paying.

    If I run the numbers again for exactly 250,000 in taxable income, the 2011 tax is 59,954.50 and the new-rate tax is 61,085.50-not even close to enough to pay for one month.

    This a a very simple back-of-envelope calculation. I’ve left out a lot of things-is any of their income non-wage based? What about potential losses of deductions? (the famed ‘closing tax loopholes’ statement, which sounds an awful lot like eliminating the mortgage interest deduction to me.)

    And if your friend doesn’t trust the rates I’m using-2011 came from the IRS web site, and the new rates Obama is proposing comes from here:

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2012/08/14/obama-vs-romney-which-tax-plan-works-for/

  101. 101.

    hep kitty

    @Violet: Nice of you to be sympathetic. I have no idea where one could get that kind of information.

    I guess I just don’t have much patience with people who say they simply do not have the time to find out who they should vote for or anyone who would equate Obama with Romney.
    I have to say, I think it’s a pretty ridiculous litmus test.

    The amount of a tax cut is a known quantity. The cost of medical care is not/cannot be predicted but it is likely to either. Nursing homes, also too.

    If she wants to keep what money she has, the choice is pretty clear. Why dont’ you just tell her listen to someone smarter than herself. You.

  102. 102.

    sacrablue

    @Violet: You might try the AARP website. They seem to be fact based and at least they sound non-partisan. aarp.org, I think.

  105. 105.

    Cassidy

    @Violet: It’s okay. We all do things we’re not proud of, but sometimes you just gotta say “the midget in the giant tub of butter isn’t going to wash himself”.

  107. 107.

    Violet

    @hep kitty:

    Why dont’ you just tell her listen to someone smarter than herself. You.

    Ha. I don’t think that would work. She knows I’m a partisan Democrat and if she didn’t, my “I’ll never vote for a Republican ever again” comment sealed the deal.

  108. 108.

    Ruckus

    @cckids:
    My sister tried to care for my father with alzheimers in her home. She hired a an amazing woman to be there 8-9 hrs a day. She had to care for him the other 16 hrs, every day. She lasted six weeks, which is about 5 1/2 weeks longer than I figured she would. The simple fact is that 24 hr care is expensive. Some of the numbers I’ve seen here are a little high for what is available but the minimum is probably around $50,000 to $60,000 per yr. Without insurance (private or medicaid) this is just impossible for most people. With assets, which you will spend to provide care, many can last for a few years. Without that and medicaid that will be days for many.

    Violet
    How are they paying now? You stated that your friend is using the relatives assets to pay for the care. Are they figuring out what to do when those are gone?

  109. 109.

    Violet

    @sacrablue: Thanks, I’ll include that. I don’t want to overwhelm her, but hate for her to do that stupid back of the envelope calculation and think she’s figured it all out.

  110. 110.

    Cassidy

    @hep kitty:

    Why dont’ you just tell her listen to someone smarter than herself. You.

    Scratch the kitty or pet the kitty, whichever one you’re referring to, but chill. She said it’s a friend. No need to go insulting people’s friends. Be cool.

  111. 111.

    Violet

    @Ruckus:

    How are they paying now? You stated that your friend is using the relatives assets to pay for the care. Are they figuring out what to do when those are gone?

    There is a small pension, but I think that’s getting ready to drop for some reason. There were assets that were sold (a house and some other stuff), and I think maybe some other retirement money, but I’m not for sure on that.

    As I understand it, the money is about gone. The pension is still there, and that will help contribute some if they decide to pay themselves. If they go with Medicaid, the pension gets turned over to the state and all they have is the Medicaid to cover the nursing home costs. So they are trying to decide if they can afford to pay the difference or go with Medicaid. Going with Medicaid would mean a different nursing home or different living situation or something. I’m not quite sure of the specifics, but that change wouldn’t be for the better.

  112. 112.

    trollhattan

    @muddy: LTC premiums are leaping. CalPERS hasn’t had open enrollment for nearly half a decade and recently announced premiums for existing policies will be going up in the neighborhood of 75%. I’ll guess CalPERS is one of the nation’s largest retirement systems.

    My MIL is burning through about $5k/mo in her facility–she’s in “mid-level” care. After liquidating pretty much everything she owned and draining her 401ks, she’ll be solvent for about three more years. She’s only in her 70s.

  113. 113.

    danielx

    I’ve felt for a while that cats have four basic expressions: blissful self-satisfaction, zen space, suspicious and pissed.

    Chica is definitely in zen space.

  114. 114.

    trollhattan

    That kitteh has the daintiest paws I’ve ever seen. Mathmatically, they’re 1/TBogg’s bassetts.

  115. 115.

    Violet

    @trollhattan: This sort of thing is just terrifying for those of us dealing with older relatives now and who are looking ahead and know that we don’t have resources to support ourselves when we’re older.

    Older folks now still have pensions–a lot of them do anyway. Younger folks do not. We got 401Ks and we all know how great those are. I do not know what the country is going to do because we are going to have a lot of destitute seniors in the next few decades.

    If you don’t have kids or a close niece or nephew or something, you are going to be shit out of luck. A lot of people are in that situation.

  116. 116.

    Violet

    I want to thank everyone for their insights and information on how to talk to my friend about the situation with her relative. I found it really helpful and interesting and learned some stuff. Maybe others did too. Thanks everyone!

  117. 117.

    ? Martin

    @trollhattan:

    LTC premiums are leaping. CalPERS hasn’t had open enrollment for nearly half a decade and recently announced premiums for existing policies will be going up in the neighborhood of 75%. I’ll guess CalPERS is one of the nation’s largest retirement systems.

    CalPERS is slightly fucked WRT their assets, plus CA has been cutting their long term care support in the annual budget fiasco, so that’s just not an environment that CalPERS can afford to get involved with.

    If there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, it would be that Brown said he’d support the legislature’s single payer system once the budget got under control. We’re finally entering a window where that at least looks conceivable. Should we get there, the state can tackle long-term care head on. But that’s going to take some time. It might be ready for my mom. Maybe. Anyone already there is going to miss it entirely, even if everything happens as soon as possible.

  118. 118.

    hep kitty

    @Cassidy: Yup, I’m a bitch

    And yes, yes, everyone has confirmed I am officially freaking out

    GAAAAHHHHHH!

    This is me freaking out.

    GAAAAAHHHHHHH!

    Call the Enthusiasm Police, now!

  120. 120.

    hep kitty

    @trollhattan: So you’re into dainty paws, too? My kitteh has some lil dainty ones. When she is standing, she looks like she is standing on stumps instead of feets.

    The only thing better than dainty paws is crossed dainty paws!

  121. 121.

    Ruckus

    @Violet:
    That change wouldn’t be for the better.

    Got that. If they can afford to pay that’s great. Someone up thread pointed out that you never know what will happen next. My father was in three homes during his health incarceration. As his disease progressed he needed more and more care, which is of course typical. He went from assisted living in his own little apartment type situation to 5 patients in a single family home care facility with each patient that needed it separated and around the clock staff. The two women owners of the home came to his funeral and honestly cried like he was their own father. The cost was way beyond anything any or all of his children together could afford. Without medicaid and medicare… But with it he lived as best as he could and was treated with dignity.

    ETA BTW I may have forgotten to say this yet today. Fuck conservatives. Each and everyone of the shallow, self-centered, moronic, assholes.

  122. 122.

    hep kitty

    @Cassidy: Lol, I’m actually fine but I keep being told I am freaking out so I figured I’d best go ahead and get it over with.

  123. 123.

    ET

    Looks like Chica feels about her humans computer as my Milo feels about mine. From his perspective it may be a good butt warmer but it really takes attention away from HIM.

  126. 126.

    Mary Brown

    I happen to have the boy version of Chica who does happen to need a home in the Cincinnati-Dayton OH area…..

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