What makes these mass shootings so fucking infuriating is that the situations are so simple, so consistent. Mental illness + guns. This isn’t one of the incredibly difficult-to-predict situations. A who could have known moment.
No, what seems to have been going on in the Lanza house was the equivalent of building a bomb. And the question wasn’t whether it would go off, but when. And it wasn’t whether people would die as a result, but who and how many.
The problem with the broader “gun safety” frame is that it places restrictions on millions of gun owner who objectively are a low threat. Now, personally, I don’t give a shit. If it were in my power, I’d seize every fucking firearm in the country other than revolvers, shotguns, and bolt-action rifles and melt them all down. But that isn’t going to happen. And as a matter of practical politics, I think that any effort to impose restrictions on all gun owners is going to be virtually impossible to accomplish.
But, maybe, just maybe, we could talk about restrictions in cases where this Venn diagram occurs. If there is a person with mental illness in a household, they should, simply, not be allowed to possess firearms. We can debate what the specific dividing lines are. Is it schizophrenia? Depression? Autism spectrum? I don’t know.
But in many of the recent high profile cases, the indicators were obvious. Lanza was a kid who could not function in school. Despite his intellect, he was so unable to interact socially that he was pulled from high school. Now, I don’t want to punish families facing the challenge of mental illness. If anything, I’d like them to have much more and better support. But maybe, just maybe, such households should, in the interest of public safety, be barred from gun ownership?
Jon
I can’t fly. I once had a prescription for depression. That was almost 10 years ago. Google it. You can’t fly if you’ve ever taken SSRIs, with a few tiny exceptions.
So, I can go buy a ton of guns and never have any treatment. Can’t fly though.
Hmmm
Eric U.
@Jon: you mean you can’t pilot an aircraft?
susan
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1
Violet
The side by side photos of Lanza and the guy who shot up the Aurora theater are kind of creepy. They both have very similar wide-eyed blank stares.
Good luck with the mentally ill in the household thing. I don’t disagree with the concept, but I think it’s a big first step.
dan
How long before 1 of the wing nuts says the mother owned the guns. She was a teacher! Union member! Liberal!
dr. bloor
I think c u n d gulag’s comment from the previous thread has more legs–regulate and tax the shit out of them, based on a risk assessment.
Banning ownership for anyone with or who has an affiliation with anyone with a mental illness is an uphill, and I would guess constitutionally tough battle. Mental illness per se is not a robust predictor of violence.
And no, I’m not advocating ownership for emotionally unstable people.
Davis X. Machina
@Eric U.: Grounded for a year, anyways.
dr. bloor
@Violet:
Yeah, we all have a photo of ourselves like that floating around. I’ve also seen some photos of James Holmes where he looks completely ordinary. Those photos hit the big time because they’ll sell papers and ad time.
cokane
I’m not sure it’s so simple. Restricting whole households with 1 person with mental illness isn’t going to be easy.
PeakVT
But maybe, just maybe, such households should, in the interest of public safety, be barred from gun ownership?
That’s fine to say, but how should we go about that in a way that isn’t intrusive, that isn’t subject to abuse, and doesn’t cause unintended consequences (such as mentally disturbed people not seeking help because they want to keep their guns)?
Ecks
Except the stats are that mentally ill people aren’t prone to violence or crime more than other people…. other than psychopaths and paranoid schizos. The Connecticut guy was mentally ill, but Brevik wasn’t, Harris and Klebold weren’t…
Military weapons lead to military scale outcomes. Bottom line.
forked tongue
“The problem with the broader “gun safety” frame is that it places restrictions on millions of gun owner who objectively are a low threat.”
1. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who feels “restricted” by the idea of safety as applied to lethal engines can go eat an economy-sized bag of warty dicks.
2. I am so fucking sick of the millions of law-abiding citizens whom we just can’t abide inconveniencing.
Violet
@dr. bloor: It’s hard to believe that getting licensed to drive a car is more arduous and requires more updates of that licensing than owning a gun.
I’d recommend mandatory background checks for each and every gun purchase. Licenses for each gun to be renewed regularly (every year is preferable, every two years might be more doable legislatively). Require additional insurance for anyone having guns in their home. If the guns are not kept in a gun safe, insurance premiums go through the roof. Ban assault weapons.
whidby
How would that work? If you want a firearm you have to bring the spouse and kids down for a detailed psychiatric assessment?
And this proposal would not necessarily lessen the stigma or increase the treatment of mental illness in this country.
Southern Beale
Just read that Sen. Diane Feinstein says she will introduce a bill banning assault weapons the first day of the new Congress. Sadly, this will probably get zero traction in the House. Unless enough sane Republicans can be peeled away, which looking at the Teanuts in the House I highly doubt.
Lolis
How would you implement and enforce this? We already have hundreds of safety laws that are ignored and this would be one more. We need broad regukation that can be enforced on a wider scale and has a greater chance of working. Plus, many mentally ill go untreated and undiagnosed. I work in social work and the field is underresourced and underpaid. We continue to cut services by the day for the mentally ill and poor.
Ecks
I can’t remember who it was recently who was saying that when he runs into people who say things like “look at the creepy photo of this guy” he plays a game of “mathematician or mass killer” with them. You put up slides of people who were either mass killers or prominent mathematicians, and ask them to guess which is which. They can’t do it.
Southern Beale
Meet the NRA board members: not exactly your average deer hunters.
Ollie North … Grover Norquist … etc. The NRA represents gun manufacturers and the Republican Party. That is all.
gogol's wife
@Ecks:
This. It’s not mental illness. It’s guns.
BGinCHI
How about a big sin tax on guns and/or ammo?
Or we designate Wyoming the “guns are legal” state and just let everyone go there to shoot (excepting Yellowstone).
Ben Franklin
fuck you
KCinDC
Considering that 99% of gun deaths are not from massacres carried out by mentally ill shooters, I’m hoping the “gun safety” frame does have effects beyond that class of crimes. Of course restrictions on magazine capacity aren’t going to do much about non-mass shootings either.
Southern Beale
Following the link from the above link:
Here’s the complete list. Seems like something that people should know.
Southern Beale
Following the link from the above link:
Here’s the complete list. Seems like something that people should know.
Scott de B.
What does it mean to have somebody in the household with mental illness? If I have 50 relatives over every year for Thanksgiving does each of them have to be checked? What if estranged Uncle Bob finally has decided to show up at next year’s event, do I have to preemptively have him screened?
pseudonymous in nc
As has been noted widely, access to guns is significantly higher than access to mental health services. And never mind that the point of legal intervention — threat of harm to self or others — often only manifests itself late, and that changing that threshold stigmatises a lot of people who aren’t a threat.
This conversation smacks of learned helplessness. Don’t change the subject. It’s time for gun owners to start proposing ways they can be trusted with their toys. And it’s time for the NRA to be treated as the equivalent of the Confederation of American Heroin Dealers.
PeakVT
@Southern Beale: I think finding a way to demonize the NRA is important, including highlighting its arms-industry funding sources. Perhaps it’s been tried and has gotten any traction.
Maude
@gogol’s wife:
This.
whidby
@pseudonymous in nc:
Given the fact that there are 300 million guns in this country and something like 50 million people who own guns, maybe it’s time for gun control advocates to start proposing ways to regulate firearms that don simply burden the 99.999% of gun owners who never misuse their firearm.
How about that?
dmsilev
Personally, I’m in favor of outsourcing this to private industry. Specifically, the insurance industry. Require all guns owners to carry liability insurance, in a manner similar to the way we require all drivers to insure their cars. Let AllState and Geico figure out what the risk factors are and charge accordingly.
4tehlulz
@BGinCHI: I suspect this would be the mostly likely to survive court challenges.
I’d graduate the tax so that higher-caliber/military-grade ammo and magazines are more heavily taxed;, giving an incentive for gun buyers to buy guns that might actually be useful for “personal protection” and hunting instead of urban warfare.
Violet
Let’s keep up the “gun owners have small p3nises” drumbeat as well. If owning lots of guns = overcompensation, it’ll have a better chance of being less cool.
Bernard Finel
@whidby: No. You’d just have to certify under penalty of perjury that no one is mentally ill in your household. Would some people lie? Yes. Would it at least work to create awareness and a norm against it as well as preventing some of these cases? Yes as well.
Bernard Finel
@whidby: No. You’d just have to certify under penalty of perjury that no one is mentally ill in your household. Would some people lie? Yes. Would it at least work to create awareness and a norm against it as well as preventing some of these cases? Yes as well.
whidby
@Southern Beale: The NRA has loathsome leadership. I cringe every time I get my monthly magazine from them and read their nonsense about “Fast and Furious” and the lies about the Obama administration.
I really wish there was another organization out there that effectively lobbied for gun owners that wasn’t so “conservative.”
Violet
@Ecks:
Seems to me that committing mass murder would be one of the definitions of mentally ill, even if it didn’t meet legal requirements. Such actions are not sane.
Al Brito
TAX BULLETS!
Al Brito
TAX BULLETS!
Ben Franklin
@Ecks:
The Connecticut guy was mentally ill,
That is, apparent. But some may want to conflate autism/asperger’s as MI when they are cognitive disorders…..but this is Chinatown, so fuck it.
Mnemosyne
@pseudonymous in nc:
This. They keep telling us that they just can’t follow common-sense regulations like licensing or registration, and that they’re not going to accept any regulation unless we’re nice to them.
Well, then what fucking regulation will you accept? Because unless you come up with something other than the current patchwork of “buy as many guns as you want with virtually no regulation,” you’re going to get regulations forced down your throat.
Choose now, gun owners, or we will choose for you, and you will not like them.
Also, I want to see a state pass a restrictive gun registration law and, when it goes to the Supreme Court, I want crime scene photos of Newtown introduced into evidence so at least we know that Fat Tony had to look at them and know what kind of monster he is before shitcanning any kind of regulation whatsoever.
Al Brito
TAX BULLETS!
Elizabelle
@Southern Beale:
check out the logo from your “know the NRA” website.
LOL
4tehlulz
@dmsilev: That’s all well and good, but I suspect that the insurance industry (well, at least the ones that want to stay in business) will avoid that market like the plague.
What then?
4tehlulz
@whidby: The fact you haven’t resigned says all that I need to know about you.
arguingwithsignposts
Do you have any links for your armchair psychologizing? Not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but the protocol is, make a statement, back it up with a link to a reputable source.
thanks.
Valdivia
For me the question isn’t necessarily about how the govt enforces such a rule (mental illness in the house=no gun ownership) but the utter bafflement as to why someone who lives with and is responsible for a mentally ill person can even think of having an arsenal at home?
dmsilev
@whidby: Stop funding them, then. Quit, and send them a letter explaining that as long as they’re run by right-wing nuts you will not support them. If enough people do that, you’ll force them to either adapt or die.
whidby
@Bernard Finel: That would be fine with me – it would just be another one of the many questions for which you have to circle yes or no.
My favorite being that you have to certify that you are not a “user of illegal drugs”. So nobody who ever smokes pot is allowed to purchase a firearm. Drunkards are fine, though.
But I really question whether this would have much of an impact. Even assuming people answer honestly, what “mentally ill”? Someone who was just institutionalized, sure. But what about someone who is in therapy? Do we want to discourage family members from urging other family members to enter therapy where needed?
And while the details are still coming out – from what I’ve read about this shooter – he was just a very socially isolated, awkward kid. Well know more later, I suppose.
Mnemosyne
And, you know, I was sad and depressed about Newtown ever since Saturday, but I wasn’t pissed off until I saw the same-old, same-old whining about what victims gun owners are and how unfair it is that they all get tarred with the same brush just because some guy kills 20 kindergarteners and how we shouldn’t rush into making new laws just because there’s been another gun massacre.
You know what, gun owners? Fuck you. I am sick of your shit, and I am sick of your self-justification for why we’re not allowed to have reasonable fucking regulation of your favorite fucking hobby. You go explain to the parents of those 6-year-olds why it’s an unfair infringement on your liberty to have to register your guns with the government or to have a license to prove you know how to use them safely. I’m sick of listening to your bullshit.
aimai
@Ecks:
I think that’s quite a restricted definition of mental illness–there are a whole lot of personality disorders which, being uncontrollable and being associated with poor impulse control and solipsism can be quite as dangerous as some 18th century notion of “crazy.”
What I want to point out is that Gun Ownership is treated as a personal right, but guns are (obviously) owned by people who share living space, or have visitors, with a number of other people for whom the gun owner does not (and can not) take responsibility. Same issue with prescription drugs. We have a whole mechanism for dealing with prescription drugs and drug seeking behavior, the selling of drugs etc…etc…etc… In fact Doctors are monitored, their prescriptions are monitored, and we all suffer when we need pain medications because lots of people are careless with their prescriptions or misusing their prescriptions. Why are guns any different?
Personally, I’d ban all guns in private hands and move ownership entirely to shooting ranges or rent-per-use for the hunting season gun clubs. In the absence of that possibility I think it needs to be pointed out over and over again that a “responsible gun owner” is only responsible and in control of his or her own guns conditionally:
Conditionally in terms of housing/gun safes/local crime rates
Conditionally in terms of children and other adults who can take the guns if they are improperly stored.
Conditionally in terms of children or other adults who while sharing use of the guns can misappropriate them (i.e. shoot mommy in the face)
and Conditionally in the sense that even responsible gun owners can get old and demented and forgetful.
A whole lot of angry white men NRA members are already aging into being out of control of their own behavior, let alone of the behavior of caregivers and adult children who have access to their living space. Maybe you asshole gun bunny grandfather isn’t going to go out and shoot up a school because he can’t drive but he can easily end up shooting grandma or the nurse, or your grandchild–or leaving his loaded gun out so his crazy teenaged grandson wanders out to shoot up the mall.
There are a lot more dangerous kinds of gun owners than there merely “mentally ill/evil.”
aimai
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Well, now we all understand why you were so very, very concerned about drones the other day and wanted to insist that we couldn’t even discuss gun regulation until all drone strikes are halted.
Go fuck yourself, troll.
dmsilev
@4tehlulz: If it’s a government-mandated insurance, someone will offer it. The payouts will be (presumably) rare albeit large (as even a single accidental shooting can lead to $$$ in medical costs), but actuaries are good at figuring out what sort of premiums need to be charged to support that.
Elizabelle
Here’s a closeup of that Meet the NRA logo.
I would put this on my car.
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
I’m beginning to think this guy (who’s sometimes “whidgy”) is the NRA equivalent of Taco. Paid by the post, trying to pretend to be sympathetic while depressing the will to do something about the GUNS, GUNS, GUNS. Not the mental illness (that’s another topic) but the GUNS, GUNS, GUNS.
Amir Khalid
@Scott de B.:
I expect that “somebody in the household” means someone residing at the same address as the person applying for the gun license. So that would exclude long-lost Uncle Bob and whoever else shows up only for Thanksgiving — and presumably is not privy to where the gun safe is hidden.
whidby
@4tehlulz: Well gosh, I was really hoping you’d like me.
For all of the evil “conservative” stuff the NRA does, they also actually do some appreciable good that even gun control nuts would concede: they organize and offer training programs on range safety and safe firearm use and train and certify instructors to teach safe firearms handling. I am a certified instructor and that’s why I need to keep current.
I don’t feel so bad about the small amount I pay to the NRA given the amounts I donate to other organizations.
Ben Franklin
A whole lot of angry white men NRA members are already aging into being out of control of their own behavior
@ aimai…
Holy fucking christ. This nonsense has to stop. Overqualified coffee-klatches making decisions about who should be allowed to access guns.
Idiot Savants and Senior Citizens…..who’s next, the guy who jumps in line ahead of you in the supermarket?
smith
@Ecks:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t both Columbine shooters on anti-depressant medications? Harris was on Fluvoxamine and ordered to take anger management therapy after his arrest earlier that year. Klebold was also said to be depressed and angry following the arrest. Not saying that they were mentally ill, but there was clearly something wrong with both of them that didn’t get addressed.
I have no idea about the Norway murderer – but I find it hard to believe that he is not mentally ill in some way.
whidby
@gogol’s wife: If there’s a way I can be paid by the post, please send me a link.
gnomedad
@Ecks:
True enough; that’s a wide net.
Exactly.
I don’t see how anyone who does something like this isn’t mentally ill by definition.
whidby
@Mnemosyne:The only reason I brought up the drone stikes is to point out that “we” aren’t really concerned about saving the lives of children.
As reported in the NY Times, thousands of civilians have been killed in drone strikes and probably at least 160 children. The drone strikes continue to this day. Obama could stop them tomorrow. No need to consult congress. No need to defeat the NRA. Easey-peasey.
But very few people in this country give a shit about that. Is it because they are brown children? is it because they are far away? Beats me. it doesn’t even make the news.
But when some cute white kids get killed, all of a sudden we realize what a great and caring country we are and how we have to PROTECT THE CHILDREN.
In fact, there are a lot of people who have some weird obsession about guns and this shooting just gives them a chance to offer their favorite policy arguments.
I can see that you are upset by this. But perhaps you should realize that your anger is just being pushed to the surface by all of the cognitive dissonance banging around in your head.
Ecks
@Violet: And the guys who ran the big banks and jacked us all for millions of dollars, are they also insane? Because that was also a really really horrible thing to do.
Definitions of mental illness is a really difficult and tetchy thing to do well, but if you want to define “using guns to kill innocent people” as mentally ill, then Finel’s proposed law here becomes a tautology. “You aren’t allowed to have a gun if you have someone in your family who would use it to kill innocent people.” After that we could change our drunk driving laws to be “you can’t have a driving license if you would crash your car and kill innocent people,” and we should lobby our football coaches to just simply call the “score a touchdown” play more often.
As the old tagline says, “for every complicated question, there is a simple, easy to understand wrong answer.”
Ben Franklin
@smith:
30 million people on anti-depressants…
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/19/more-than-1-in-10-in-u-s-take-antidepressants/
smith
@Ben Franklin:
Interesting link. That’s a hell of a lot of people.
Obviously everyone on anti-depressants isn’t mentally ill or going around slaughtering people.
Onihanzo
@gogol’s wife: Please. “Depressing the will to do something” about mass shootings? You’re not going to do shit. And stop looking under the bed for agent provocateurs out to confound you, you egomaniac.
IowaOldLady
This is a complicated problem that needs to be attacked on multiple fronts. To me, it’s somewhat analogous to drunk driving. Our social expectations about appropriate behavior were changed by groups like MADD. That made it easier to change laws, but laws weren’t the only thing that changed.
Re the NRA, think about all those calls for “reasonable Imams” to decry terrorism. Where are the reasonable gunowners?
ETA: I meant to say that as a mother, if I had guns in the house and a son who seemed troubled, I’d lock them up if only to prevent suicide. That’s the kind of behavior that needs to become normal.
beltane
@Mnemosyne: I’m sick of it too. I’m sick of having to coddle and cater to the emotional needs (because that’s what it boils down to) of this deviant, though large, subculture. I’m sick of paranoid suburban sissies enjoying more rights to pursue their bloody little hobby without any “inconveniences” than women enjoy with regards to their own bodies. I’m sick of society having to shoulder the financial burden that results from putting guns in the hands of every nut, loser, and pants-pisser who wants one. The true cost of this “hobby” are subsidized by those who don’t participate in this hobby. If you want to see what a real moocher and freeloader looks like, look at anyone with an NRA sticker on their truck.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
I’m sorry, a fucking NRA SUPPORTER is telling me that guns aren’t the problem, drones are?
And here I thought you were just some self-righteous foreigner trying to scold us for our adventures overseas. No, you’re an NRA supporter who just doesn’t get why anyone would be upset because someone shot 20 kindergarteners to death. I mean, death happens every day, so why worry about where or how it happens, amirite? Those kids could have died in a school bus accident, so there’s no need to regulate guns.
smintheus
How about we regulate violent video games, where every time you shoot somebody you get charged a dollar. That way you learn there are consequences to murder, something that these games are designed to make you avoid acknowledging.
Also, the potentially violent would bankrupt themselves so quickly under this system they wouldn’t have any money left over to buy really dangerous weapons and ammo.
Onihanzo
@whidby: For a brief while, the only alternative a progressive gun owner had to the NRA was the American Hunters and Shooters Association. But they’ve closed their doors.
chopper
@cokane:
given that quite a large percentage of americans (and households thus) have some form or another of mental illness, i’d imagine this would really restrict gun ownership. or a lot of people would refuse to take their kids to psychologists for any reason, even if the kid is acting nuts.
i think the latter is what is likely to happen in this country.
Mnemosyne
@Ecks:
Uh, that’s kind of what the law is already. If you’re caught drunk driving, you lose your license for X amount of time even if you don’t kill anyone. If you’re caught often enough, you lose your license permanently, and, again, you don’t need to kill anyone for that to happen. Why is this a strange concept to you?
Jennifer Eisenberg
@Bernard Finel: Who will have access to this? Will it be public record? Just between, my civil administrators and my local gun shop owners? I come from a family with genetic illness that would make us (pre-ACA/2014, fingers crossed) uninsurable/unenmployable if that were public record. I can’t imagine how having mental illness be part of the public record would accomplish a lot more than driving people further from treatment (and into dangerous {and now justifiably paranoid!!} fantasies). I hope you are trying to be provocative here. This further stigmatizes the mentally ill (most of whom, like most of everybody else does not own guns) and takes the argument away from NO ONE should have any of these guns, and also, mental health is criminally underfunded in our country. Try fixing those two and then we’ll talk about yellow armbands for the crazies (and their families????).
Raven
@whidby: You were a scumbag yesterday, a scumbag today and you’ll be a scumbag in the morning.
whidby
@Onihanzo: Don’t you understand. I have an opinion that differs from his/hers.
The only logical explanation is that I am being paid to write this since any opinion that differs from his/her is, obviously, not offered in good faith.
Interesting that this is a thread about mental illness …
wiley
@Violet:
That’s an awfully tautological definition isn’t it? People who do crazy things are crazy?
Anyone who tells a doctor about symptoms that can be construed to be “depression” or “moody” can be diagnosed as mentally ill; whether they are suffering from “a disease” or are just miserable and with no other resources with which to speak and process their pain and hopelessness. If that person finds out laterthat the “depression” or “moodiness” was actually an acute iron deficiency or thyroid problem, there is nothing they can do to have the label of “mental illness” removed or contradicted by a medical doctor.
A person can lose custody of their children and be forced to take medication that makes them miserable and does no good for them or anybody else, because of what one psychiatrist has labeled them to be during the lowest point in their life when they were overwhelmed by stress. Women and minorities are more likely to be objectified with a diagnosis of mental illness, btw. Do not give psychiatry any more power than it deserves. If you do some research, you might find out how little credit it does deserve and how appallingly fucked up the “science” is.
I’m as liberal as it gets in my philosophy but this is one of those issues for which I see my liberal comrades get a little nutty. A diagnostic label increases the stigma, and a truly and undeniably mentally ill person is no more likely to be a mass murderer than a person who isn’t. For a person who is suffering with mental affliction and a crummy life, the last thing they need is to be treated at every turn like a bomb that can go off at any time.
It would make more sense to deny alcoholics the right to bear arms, but that probably wouldn’t help either.
aimai
@Ben Franklin:
That’s more than usually incoherent of you, Ben Franklin. I’m actually completely correct about this–an aging population, a rising baby boomer population struggling with all kinds of mobility issues and senescence issues is also, by definition, overlapping with a gun bunny population. If you knew any real people (which perhaps you do) living in Red States you’d see a crack up of elderly people with too few social services, too many guns, and crumbling families–estranged adult children, alcoholism, dysfunction, etc… When old age and gun fetishism + other untreated issues like alcoholism, prescription pain medication abuse, and etc… run into each other you have a recipe for disaster. OF course, like domestic violence, its generally kept within the family.
aimai
Raven
mclaren by any other name. . .
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
You should look back at the other things whidby/whidgy has posted about this in other threads before you decide. He’s already admitted that he brought up drone strikes as a distraction from talking about regulating guns.
But you’re probably right that he’s just a freelance asshole dues-paying NRA member trying to do the Lord’s work on his own rather than being an actual paid shill.
whidby
@Raven: And as I noted yesterday, there are a lot of people in this country that have real anger problems.
If there were a way to keep guns out of the hands of people who can’t control themselves, we’d be better off.
aimai
@chopper:
Really, you think a sane parent would refuse to take their kid to a psychiatrist in order to be able to keep guns at home? And if they are insane are they going to take the kid to a psychiatrist at all?
aimai
gogol's wife
@Onihanzo:
I am going to do shit. You’re making sure of that. I think a lot of other people are going to do shit too. We’re finally sick of it.
ETA: I didn’t mean you were depressing my will to do something. My will is iron. I meant you’re trying to depress casual readers who might actually pay any attention to what you have to say as if it were honest argument.
Cacti
In the context of well-regulated militias and such, maybe a good idea would be to require 500 hours of range time before you can purchase a firearm.
Ben Franklin
o. I’m sick of having to coddle and cater to the emotional needs (because that’s what it boils down to) of this deviant, though large, subculture
Hysteria becomes you. Painting all gun owners with this very broad brush makes everyone feel gooey inside, but accomplishes nothing, except securing your place on the Totem.
arguingwithsignposts
Whidby has been here before, but only on gun-related threads.
Pongo
I actually don’t think this would be as hard as others are suggesting–at least not in many cases.
We have had two recent incidents of young children shot with a legally purchased but improperly secured firearm in their own homes in MN. In both cases, the parents are facing legal charges related to their failure to properly secure their guns, so the notion of owners being legally responsible for allowing improper access already exists in some states.
If we take that to the next level, this young man had well-documented problems that had come to the attention of school authorities. This is very often (granted, not always) the case with disturbed individuals. It is really unconscionable that Ma Lanza didn’t act on a threat she clearly recognized and adapt her own behavior accordingly, but this really shouldn’t be a personal decision at the point where the situation comes to the attention of authorities. Why could there not be legal requirements for at least preventing access imposed on those in close contact with these individuals?
I think the focus needs to switch in a big way to the responsibilities of those who want to own guns–not just their rights. As a society we need to hammer home this point. You have the right to own guns, but you will also be held legally responsible for what is done with your guns and the penalties for failing to be responsible will be severe.
In the CT case, there are plenty of people (father, brother, friends) who were aware that this young man was not stable and knew his mother was maintaining an arsenal. They either chose to do nothing or, more likely, knew there was absolutely nothing they could legally do even if they wanted to intervene. We can change that and give people the legal tools necessary to address these situations.
JustAnotherBob
Who was the whacko living in one of the safest places in the country who was buying up weapons designed for fighting wars?
Who taught her children to use guns?
Let’s get the real mentally ill person identified please.
Mnemosyne
@Raven:
Ironically, mclaren has actually been taking the other side and calling for all guns in private hands to be banned, no exceptions. I don’t think she’s also making contrary sock puppets, but who knows?
Jennifer Eisenberg
My point being, this argument sets up the, “See? It’s not the guns, it’s the crazy people” defense. Which they tried after Va Tech and got no traction.
whidby
@Mnemosyne: @Mnemosyne: @Mnemosyne: You have a tendency to concoct these bizarre statements, attribute them to people you disagree with, and then triumphantly denounce the nonsense you’ve just posted.
Perhaps you should try to understand what people are saying and respond to that.
Ben Franklin
@aimai:
so incoherent was ‘who’s next, the guy who jumps in line ahead of you in the supermarket’, that you totally did not see it.
aimai
@Ben Franklin:
Yes, its incoherent.
aimai
Maude
@gogol’s wife:
79 it’s another troll.
We are getting them in the comments on this topic.
chopper
@aimai:
depends on the severity of the symptoms. let’s be fair, america is not exactly a land where psychologists are revered.
if someone’s kid is showing a few symptoms of depression and dad knows that if the kid is diagnosed he loses his gun collection, i think he’s gonna think real hard about it.
bemused
Interesting. I read over at Think Progress that the 31 pro-gun senators declined invitations to appear on Meet the Press. Gee, where’d the courage of their convictions go…
jp7505a
@KCinDC: This is a point that seems to get missed in the debate. Most gun deaths are one or two at a time, spouse comes home and finds the other spouse cheating, bitter divorce, road rage, fights over parking spaces or music too loud at a neighbors party. There was a shooting In Minnesota where the man woke in the middle of the night, heard a noise and while still sleepy shot the ‘intruder’ his 16 year old granddaughter who was over for a visit.
In all of these kinds of incidents the shooter was a responsible member of the community, good neighbor, Little League coach, etc. until some aweful set of events made him/her reach for that gun. The Texas man who killed his neighbor over loud birthay party music in the middle of the day was a retired fireman. I’m sure he didn’t get up that morning planning on killing someone, unlike the guy in Newtown or Virigina Tech.
As you read the details of somany of these shootings it seems that without the gun it would have resulted in slammed doort, broken dishes, hurt feelings and maybe brused knucles and a bloody nose. Without the gun George Zimmerman would have done what town watch members are supposed to do – OBSERVE and REPORT.
There have been any number of shootings at churches where the ex-husband kills the wife. Should we install gun racks on the alter next the the flowers and candles.
We solved the problem of yellow fever by draining the swamps and breeding areas not by giving people bigger fly swaters.
I just don’t know if there is any way to ‘drain the
swamp’ in this case.
And to save on angry replys from the gun owners, I meant that was metaphor not a personal insult. I understand that 99.9% of you will never fire your guns at another human beging but that .1% still creates a terrible body count day in and day out.
tuna
Bernard
I fail to understand why you want to limit the conversation to mental illness and guns. Since 2004 deaths form assault weapons has gone up 60%. The current gun problem is the assault rifle. The public needs to know that we were safer and can be safer.
4tehlulz
@JustAnotherBob: Doomsday Prepper, apparently.
Glenn Beck and his ilk strike again.
JWR
@Mnemosyne: Please, don’t waste any more time on the troll. Now it’s trying to goad anybody who disagrees with it into an argument. Just try to ignore it, and hopefully it’ll go away.
whidby
@Mnemosyne: Yes, exactly right, I am McClaren must be the same person. How in the world could there be ___two___ people on the face of the earth who don’t share your views on everything.
There should be some sort of logic test to weed out people like you from ever purchasing firearms. I’d be all for that.
? Martin
According to the beeb:
Church in Newtown evacuated during service following unspecified threat.
Mnemosyne
@wiley:
If, as you say, there’s really no way to tell who’s mentally ill and who’s just going through a rough time, then isn’t the best answer tighter regulations on all gun owners, including registration, licensing, insurance, and storage requirements that include trigger locks and gun safes?
Or is that just too, too restrictive on honest gun owners and we have to keep watering the Tree of Liberty with the blood of innocents because freedom!
4tehlulz
@whidby: The right to bear arms is one of our most basic rights, unless I don’t want you to have it.
lol
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Actually, I was defending mclaren from the comparison with you, because she’s actually been talking sense about removing all guns from private hands.
But, hey, you’re an NRA member, so your sense of martyrdom and victimization comes in the mail along with your membership card.
Ecks
@Mnemosyne: FYWP for losing my first response to this.
Anyway, you misunderstand me.
Drunk driving laws make sense because we have this concept “drunk” that is observable independently of the outcome “has already crashed their car”. We can spot people who are drunk ahead of time and shame/coerce them into not driving.
Defining “has shot a bunch of people up” as mentally ill, for the purposes of forbidding mentally ill people from owning guns is the opposite of this.
We do have meanings for “mentally ill” that are observable independent of having already shot up a crowd, but it’s a rather poor predictor of shooting-up-crowd behavior (except for the pshychopath/paranoid schizo caveat). This is unlike being drunk, which IS a good predictor of crashing your car into things.
arguingwithsignposts
Also, I know this sounds counter to the spirit of the place, but I’d really like to see a composite post from several FPers giving their thoughts on one aspect of the topic and then joining in with the comments. Or do like Crooked Timber does on occasion and post a series.
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
sorry, trigger locks are unconstitutional. cause scalia would have to put on glasses before punching in the code.
seriously.
Maude
@chopper:
Some famous killers have gone through a mental health system.
Some parents want their kids drugged to keep them quiet.
A diagnosis follows a person and can be very damaging. A psychiatrist can write what he or she wants. It is only opinion, but the patient is without the ability to refute the doctor.
Anyone who commits a heinous crime is a psychopath. There’s not drug, help or cure for it.
I am extremely uncomfortable with calling a killer mentally ill. It harms anyone with any kind of physical problem in the brain.
This is also putting the blame on a certain group of people instead of facing the fact that we have a problem and we need to solve it.
Maude
@arguingwithsignposts:
Yes.
Ben Franklin
@aimai:
Everything is incoherent when your emotions are out of control.
whidby
@4tehlulz: I wonder if it might be better to replace all of the stupid questions you are now asked on federal firearms transfer forms with some sort of impulse control test … you can have donut now or two donuts if you with 5 minutes and you have to sit there looking at the donut for 5 minutes.
The questions now really don’t do much to screen out people so this wouldn’t be much worse.
Ecks
@aimai: Don’t know about “sane”, but, yes, there certainly would be at least SOME parents who did this exact behavior
gogol's wife
@arguingwithsignposts:
I’d like to see someone like John or DougJ or Mistermix choose a reasonable course of action (many have been suggested in the comments, such as taxing ammo, requiring liability insurance, etc.) and then push it. I’m going to call the Brady Campaign tomorrow and see what they are recommending as policy changes that we can push for now. I haven’t found them to be too effectual, but they have been tracking the issues for many years and I think their experience is valuable as a plan for action.
Onihanzo
@gogol’s wife:
You’re now so blinded by your own histrionics that you can no longer discern the difference between whidby and myself.
chopper
@wiley:
actually, the diagnostic criteria for depression deliberately deals with temporary or situational symptoms such as grieving, job loss etc.
no psychologist in their right mind (lol!) is going to diagnose someone as clinically depressed because they feel sad that their mom died.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
I understand what you’re saying: there should be no regulations on guns, because FREEDOM! And anyone who thinks that it’s bad that 20 kindergarteners are dead is just over-emotional and not thinking logically about how unconstitutional it would be to try and prevent people from murdering children in their classrooms.
The problem seems to be that you think your stance is somehow rational and logical, not the emotional overreaction born of paranoia that it actually is.
gogol's wife
@chopper:
I’d like to ask Justice Scalia if he’s going to confess to his priest about the 20 dead babies.
Ecks
@Pongo:
So, f’rinstance, severe penalties if you have a gun lost stolen from your house, or touched by a child, if it was not securely locked up, with ammo stored separately, etc. Because you have the RESPONSIBILITY of making sure your gun does not fall into incorrect hands.
? Martin
That’s necessary, but not sufficient. The only way for that responsibility to actually work is through a national registry. As it stands, we often have no idea who has guns, what guns they have, and who the legitimate owner of a gun ought to be. And it can’t be a register/permit and forget deal – there needs to be regular re-licensing and re-registration.
Seriously, the car should be the model here. Everyone needs to register their car, everyone need to renew their license, we track vin numbers and owners, transferring ownership requires formally notifying the state of the transfer. And in most states, car owners even need to be insured (don’t think that should apply here). If the state feels that car ownership needs to be tracked to that degree, why shouldn’t the same be true of guns?
phil
Bernard, sounds like you not serious about gun control. You throw out arguments that it “places restrictions on millions of gun owner”; we do that already for driving, drinking and voting. You make a BS scenario that just happens to be a prime NRA talking point about what Obama and the lefties want to do with guns.
Just admit it…you aren’t a gun control advocate (or you’re crap at politics).
whidby
You have a tendency to concoct these bizarre statements, attribute them to people you disagree with, and then triumphantly denounce the nonsense you’ve just posted.
Perhaps you should try to understand what people are saying and respond to that.
gopher2b
Am i the only one that refuses to see the shooter’s mother as a victim? i keep seeing her mourned with the other actual victims and it makes me sick. personally, i hope she’s burning in hell.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
I know. That is, frankly, one of the things pissing me off about gun owners right now — there are basically no meaningful regulations on them, no requirements at all that they keep their guns safely or have any clue how to use them or have insurance in case anything goes wrong, and yet they’re the real victims of Newtown, because now people are saying mean things about them.
Onihanzo
@Maude: Adorable. Anyone who disagrees with the bloodlust du jour, that gun owners must pay the ultimate price for this atrocity, is automatically tagged as a troll, eh?
I’ve been on BJ a helluva lot longer than you, since the days when it was listed on the Daou Report. So you can kindly fuck right off. :)
4tehlulz
@whidby: So you you support gun control, just not for you.
lol gun “rights”
Onihanzo
@gopher2b:
Jesus. Seriously?
jp7505a
There was a discussion on cable yesterday about mental illness and these events. First problem is there are not enough services available for those who really want them. Second problem is as an adult, unless there is a formal legal procedure, he doesn’t have to seek help. Even if there is a legal procedure he doesn’t have to follow the doctors instructions. The third point that was made is forcing someone like this into a medical situation often plays into their delusion. They are operating in an ‘I’m all right the world is all wrong’ frame of mind. The medical intervention just reinforces that mind set.
Ecks
@jp7505a: THIS.
If there was a ‘rec’ button on here I would be mashing it for this post. It deserves to be front paged.
whidby
@4tehlulz: Of course. Just like I support higher taxes and speed limits for everyone but me.
pharniel
@aimai: If you have ‘mental illness’ you can already be legally discriminated against in many other situations why add one more reason?
You have to De-stigmatize mental disorders before you can restart the broken ass mental health system to treat the epidemic.
Also – about having to ‘rent’ firearms from ‘hunting’ clubs (which I have no idea wtf those are) what about those who hunt on their own land?
I get that a great many of the gun bunnies are suburbanite assholes who want to be able to cry “WOLVERINES!” but what about the people *not* in that category?
Any regulation scheme/registration plan is going to have to handle both the ‘i want 50 glocks with 200 round mags’ and “I have a large collection of firearms so that every fall my kids and I can go get deer/elk/moose meat” and unlike the stereotypical 2nd week of deercamp guys they hunt on their own land.
Do we make it like vehicles? Where the licensing and registration is only required if you take it off your property?
That might be a good idea – assume that it’s a fundamentally (sub)urban problem and exempt private lots. You might actually get more buy in that way.
gopher2b
@whidby:
Then cancel your subscription. It’s literally the least you can do.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Well, then, tell us what you’re saying other than, “Drones are worse than guns, so we have to get rid of drones before we can even discuss regulating guns.”
The funniest part to me is that you seem to think your arguments have been logical and rational rather than emotional. Because, after all, there’s nothing more rational and logical than ignoring 26 dead bodies to hold to an abstract principle.
beltane
@gopher2b: The only thing this woman was a victim of was her own stupidity. If she and her son were the only ones killed we’d be nominating her for a Darwin award.
Ben Franklin
@? Martin:
The only way for that responsibility to actually work is through a national registry
I don’t think they are lacking info. Arms seizures proceeded apace of the info they need.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_government_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina#Confiscation_of_civilian_firearms
Violet
@Ecks: We also regulate the cars. They have to meet certain safety standards (yearly inspections to make sure they do), plus regulations on how the cars are used via traffic lights, speed limits, etc. Drivers are regulated via licensing and ticketing for non-compliance.
Guns have many fewer regulations. They should have at least as many. Probably more.
Then perhaps we star with the psychopath/paranoid schizophrenics and go from there if necessary. Maybe that’s the highest correlation. There are always going to be people outside the norm. Non-drunk people crash cars too, so regulating drinking and driving isn’t going to prevent all car accidents. It’s going to lower the incidence of car accidents, though.
gopher2b
@pharniel:
If you need a semi-automatic assault rifle to hunt you are a terrible hunter and should just go to the grocery store like everyone else,
hilts
From Planet Wingnut:
Rep. Louie Gohmert, a Republican from Texas, says he wishes Dawn Hochsprung, the principal of the Sandy Hook Elementary School, was armed with an M-4 assault rifle when she confronted Adam Lanza, the shooter who killed 20 children.
“I wish to God she had an M-4 in her office locked up so when she heard gunfire she pulls it out and she didn’t have to lunge heroically with nothing in her hands but she takes him out, takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids,” Gohmert said in an interview on “Fox News Sunday.”
dr. luba
@whidby:
Given the fact that there are 250 million cars in this country and something like 190 million people who rive cars, maybe it’s time for automobile control advocates to start proposing ways to regulate cars that don simply burden the 99.999% of car owners who never misuse their car.
Annual automobile licensure? Driver licensure? Insurance? Traffic regulations? Anti-DUI laws? Why bother?
Onihanzo
@pharniel:
But how would that prevent something like what happened on Friday from happening? That would seem to be the goal. License restriction to off-property possession is not much of a safeguard.
Uncle Cosmo
@aimai:
I made a suggestion in the other thread that might be a starting point for an effective policy. Briefly, make the owner of any gun that is used to commit a crime (including someone’s suicide) prima facia an accessory before the fact. At the same time, provide free of charge (or at some nominal licensing fee) secure storage from which guns can be checked out at the owner’s pleasure.
Raven
@Mnemosyne: Who gives a fuck what it is saying?
beltane
@jp7505a: Also, mental illness is not like strep throat. It is not curable and it is only partially treatable in the best of circumstances. Just because someone is receiving top-notch psychiatric care doesn’t mean they won’t have a psychotic episode and hurt themselves or others.
Ben Franklin
@Onihanzo:
But you don’t hang on every post like a barfly, so you can’t be on the Totem Pole.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Oh noes! Making gun owners be licensed and regulated is worse than the Holocaust! We may as well take all gun owners out in the fields and shoot them in the heads since making them show that they know how to keep a gun in the house safely before they can have one is making them “pay the ultimate price.”
whidby
@dr. luba: touche.
Actually, I think some kind of “gun license” would be a better idea than the regulations we have now. I mean, you don’t have to take a test and do a background check every time you buy another car, right.
But I think that there’s so much paranoia about there being a “list” of everyone who has a gun that it would never fly.
? Martin
Apparently the police had no clue the guy had 47 guns. I think that’s something the police ought to know…
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
She trained her son to shoot and kept weapons in her house knowing her son was a sociopath. If she wasn’t shot, she would be in jail right now charged with 26 counts of negligent homicide and/or manslaughter. so, yes, I’m serious.
Pongo
@Ecks: Yes. Why not? We are responsible for damage caused by our animals, even if they run away. If you want to be a pet owner, you agree that you are responsible for securing that pet and the penalties are pretty stiff if you fail to do so. Pets have a certain level of autonomy (using their own tiny brains) and often pose far less danger than a loaded firearm, yet the laws enforcing responsible ownership are far more burdensome for a Shih Tzu than for an AK-47. Doesn’t make much sense.
I don’t think the stolen gun problem is an issue, because you a theft can be reported which would mitigate at least some responsibility.
Elizabelle
@hilts:
Eh. Fox got what they wanted when they invited Gohmert.
Chris
I don’t think even that would work. The NRA would still scream that it’s a plot in which the Zionist Occupation Government conspiracy is putting this law in place so that they can then have all Republicans diagnosed as mentally ill and take their guns then proclaim a New World Order.
(And to be fair, I can totally see governors and mayors, not to mention thugs like Arpaio, in really red states seizing on it as a flimsy excuse to conduct more raids in minority-heavy areas).
Raven
@whidby: douche
aimai
@Ecks:
You want to see mentally ill? Hop over to Mike Huckabee’s website and read the approving comments for his statement that we can’t expect better than massacres because God has left the building. The vast majority of the comments that Huckabee was willing to have published (because they moderate the comments) are absolutely gleefully convinced that the children in that school died as a well deserved warning to america because of Abortion or lack of god thinking on the part of liberals.
aimai
Violet
@pharniel:
Some school in Texas was having problems because the school backed up to some property where the guys who owned the property were shooting guns (target practice?) and they were the kinds of guns that shot bullets very long distances. So the school was ending up getting hit by these bullets from guns being shot a long way away. Guns were being shot on private property but affecting people off the property. Hopefully this kind of thing would be addressed in your scenario?
Kristin
Yes, let’s coddle gun owners at the expense of the already stigmatized mentally ill.
On the other hand, there seems to be a pathology to responding to the senseless death of 20 6 and 7 year olds by screaming, “you cannot regulate my assault weapons!” It’s so fucked up I can barely wrap my mind around it.
Like smokers, they want to subject all of us to the risks of their filthy habit. Their need to buy guns trumps everyone else’s freedom to simply live.
? Martin
@Ben Franklin:
You think there are only 1000 handguns in New Orleans?
jp7505a
@beltane: Yep. While I think dealing with the issue of mental illness is a piece of the puzzle there is no magic bullet (sorry). As one of the other posters in reference to MADD, suggested sometimes the only way is small steps.
I’m not sure that is even possible when the former Sec. of Education Bill Bennett thinks it’s jus t a ducky idea to arm teachers. What next moats filled with large disagreeable reptiles?
aimai
@whidby:
I’m not paranoid about a list of gun owners–I want one. There’s a god damned list of pedophiles. We should all know just who around us is stockpiling guns.
aimai
Pongo
@gopher2b: I don’t think she deserved to be shot in the face for her idiocy, but she certainly provided the means and it sounds like her relationship with her son may have contributed to the motive for this crime, so she bears some responsibility. There were others who knew this kid was unstable and that his mother had an arsenal. Legally, there was probably nothing they could do about it, but you have to wonder if anyone put pressure on this mom to rethink her gun glorification under the circumstances.
4tehlulz
@hilts: Oh course he said that. He can’t entertain the idea that the most likely outcome would have been an extra gun for Lanza to kill kids with.
Mnemosyne
@pharniel:
The other part of my proposal — in addition to registration, licensing, and safe storage requirements — would be to set the number of guns you are permitted to have by population density. So someone who lives in a heavily populated area could have one gun, someone in the suburbs could have two, etc. Once we get out to sparsely populated areas where your nearest neighbor is over a mile away and you have to drive 50 miles to get to the nearest multiplex, you can have a frickin’ Howitzer in your front yard for all I care, because it’s going to take you a lot of time and effort to find enough people in one location to massacre them.
I live in Los Angeles County in a city of 200,000 people that’s surrounded by Los Angeles proper and a bunch of other small cities. No one here needs 5 guns close at hand at all times. No one. And for areas like this one, I like the idea of making people who want to keep a hunting rifle store it at a local gun storage facility and check it out when they want to go hunting.
whidby
Wowsers, this post deserves a little stick on star or something.
You have a tendency to concoct these bizarre statements, attribute them to people you disagree with, and then triumphantly denounce the nonsense you’ve just posted.
Perhaps you should try to understand what people are saying and respond to that.
smith
@aimai:
Has Douchebag Huckabee ever apologized for pardoning the murderer who then went to Seattle and gunned down five cops? The only reason he pardoned the man is because the man claimed he “found Jesus” and was a “devoted” Christian.
Of course the man conned Huckabee except Huckabee was too stupid to realize it.
Ben Franklin
@? Martin:
Heh. Go back and read your cp. They didn’t have any, now they have 1000. Probably 10x that is closer to the truth. IAC, they are not believable.
Pongo
@Kristin: I like Cole’s suggestion that we have to make membership in the NRA as stigmatized as membership in the KKK.
? Martin
@Violet: Yeah, limiting it to private property is idiotic. You can do that with cars because cars are visibly tagged (license plates) and too large to conceal. Guns are completely different in those regards. They all need to be registered.
whidby
Source?
aimai
@pharniel:
Very, very, very, few people hunt on their own land. I don’t see any reason to make special laws for them.
As for the stigmatization of the mentally ill I don’t consider it a stigma to be forbidden to own death dealing weapons. A gun is not some kind of consolation prize or a mercy fuck. People who can’t pass a driving test can’t get a liscence to drive a car. If a person can’t pass a rigorous test not for proficiency but for common sense or humanity or good judgement there is zero reason why they or their caregivers should be permitted to own guns. If their caregivers can’t pass a rigorous test demonstrating that they will be able to maintain their guns without letting care slip into the hands of their demented elders or children then they, too, should be denied the right to own guns.
aimai
gopher2b
@Pongo:
She is a long way from getting what she deserves.
Ben Franklin
@aimai:
Clearly, you should be proscribed from owning a weapon.
Violet
@Pongo: Yep. People who join the NRA and/or have guns, particularly assault weapons, are compensating for their small genitalia. “You just bought an assault rife? I’m so sorry to hear about your small p3nis.”
Onihanzo
@Mnemosyne: Slow down there, Mohammed Ali. No need to go to work on all that straw. Holding gun owners personally accountable for Newton is world’s apart from a discussion about changing the gun laws. And that’s the tone I take issue with. But folks like gopher2b are already revving up the ‘Nancy Lanza deserved to be shot in the face’ fervor so fuck it.
I’m more than a little ashamed to keep political company with you lot right now.
aimai
@Pongo:
I know she was the custodial parent but the father deserves plenty of contumely as well–he basically fucked off to live life as a free man, without any duties to his son and left her holding the bag. He either never saw the kid through visitation or gave that up and didn’t bother to intervene once mother and son had retreated into their fortress of solitude.
aimai
Mnemosyne
@Ben Franklin:
Uh, you realize that article doesn’t say what you claim, right? Police were seizing firearms if they found them — they had no list and were not searching out identified gun owners from that list, despite what you were trying to imply.
And, hey, everyone who wanted a seized gun was able to pick one up afterwards since they didn’t have to provide actual proof of ownership:
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne:
Gun ownership as a percentage of population is actually going down and has been for decades. Regulation is coming, whether they want to admit it or not.
? Martin
@Ben Franklin:
Even 10x is too low. We have 2 handguns for every 3 people in this country. The pre-Katrina population of New Orleans was 500,000. There should be roughly 300,000 handguns there. So many it would be impossible to confiscate without it being national news.
Obviously the police do not know where most of them are. If I had to guess, only the black people in the bad neighborhoods had their guns confiscated, knowing the track record of the NOPD.
aimai
@Ben Franklin:
I don’t own a weapon. I would have no problem being “proscribed” because I’m not interested in killing other people and I would prefer not to be shot with my own weapon in a home invasion. What’s your point?
aimai
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Then explain why drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation, and why anyone who’s upset that 20 kindergarteners are dead is just being irrational.
We’re all waiting with bated breath.
smith
@aimai:
Agree with this.
The picture emerging of Nancy Lanza isn’t pretty, but where the heck was the father? There were reports he hadn’t seen or heard from his son in a year (the older brother said he had no contact with him for two years). Why did this father just walk away from his son? He knew what was going on because his own sister told the press about Nancy’s love of guns and other family members knew the son was troubled.
whidby
@aimai: Sorry, I was referring to possible support among the public at large and specifically among gun owners.
One reason why we have these nutty ineffective “background” checks is because gun owners have strongly opposed “licensing” gun owners for fears that this would create some list of gun owners for when the police decided to come around and seize all of the guns. Paranoia? Yes.
They might have had a point 30 years ago. but now with all of the interwebs and databases, it would be pretty easy to pick out who owns a gun, so “licensing” no longer has that (possibly imaginary) downside anymore.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Sorry, but when you refer to licensing and registration of guns as “paying the ultimate price,” you get the same hyperbole right back atcha.
Even gopher2b’s assholishness isn’t recommending that all gun owners be lined up and shot.
Violet
@aimai: Do we know that for sure? Maybe he tried and the mother wouldn’t let him see the son. Maybe the son didn’t want to see him–teenage kids are allowed by courts to have more say in visitations. Maybe the aresenal-building started after the divorce and he knew nothing about it.
I’m not trying to say the dad is off the hook, but I’m also not sure we know for certain what the family dynamics were and what the dad did and didn’t do or know. Maybe he’s a jerk, but he’s certainly a generous jerk as he was paying a substantial amount in support for his wife–apparently more than he had to pay. Maybe the money was out of guilt or in place of actual attention.
Kay
I shudder to think how much time and money will be spent on public school lock-downs tomorrow. It’s crazy now, the elaborate school safety plans, but it’s about to get a whole lot crazier.
We’re all hostages, now. We’re all on lockdown.
Onihanzo
@whidby: It was my understanding there isn’t a national database or much of a database AT ALL of gun ownership, due in large part to the NRA’s endeavors.
Was that not the heart of the Fast and Furious debacle, that ATF agents were having a helluva time tracing guns used by the Mexican cartel, guns which were being bought by loose gun purchase laws in Arizona and NM and run across the border?
Onihanzo
@Mnemosyne: It’s still pretty assholish.
whidby
@Mnemosyne:
You have a tendency to concoct these bizarre statements, attribute them to people you disagree with, and then triumphantly denounce the nonsense you’ve just posted.
I will absolutely explain why I believe that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation” just as soon as you provide a link to a post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation”
Here’s your chance to demonstrate that you you’re not just making crap up.
Go ahead.
smith
@Kay:
The copycats will be out like crazy the next week. I’m almost glad it’s close to Christmas break and the kids will have at least two weeks off.
But then it will start up again in January.
rikyrah
if you have someone who is mentally unstable..
why the fuck do you have loaded guns in your house?
the gun nuts talk abour RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERHSHIP.
there is nothing responsible about having guns around the mentally unstable.
chopper
@hilts:
clearly, the solution to this problem is to give principals assault weapons.
SatanicPanic
@Kay: That’s how Republicans roll- in order to prove how fucked up things are, they sabotage everything they can.
Corner Stone
@aimai:
What are you basing this on? Please link or quote something.
beltane
@Kay: Living as a perpetual hostage is but a small price to pay for FREEDOM!!
Kristin
@Pongo: We can at least stop the presumption that they are the true victims.
whidby
@Onihanzo: You’re right that there isn’t an official registry of gun ownership created from purchasing records.
My point is that concerns about that are pretty much moot since it would be easy to put together a fairly accurate algorithm for selecting gun owners from various databases.
I frankly have never understood what Fast and Furious was about. I gave up trying to figure that out.
Ben Franklin
@aimai:
My point is; you are not emotionally stable enough to own a weapon.
Kristin
@beltane: Our freedoms are all secondary to gun owners freedoms, apparently.
Kay
@beltane:
Do people not know about the lockdowns? It’s been going on for years. Ever-escalating.
I’m confused by this wide-eyed media coverage. Did they just find out that kids in public schools drill this shit constantly? That we spend enormous amounts on money on school-shooter security apparatus? In our rural, under-funded district this comes up at nearly every school board meeting. They can’t afford field trips, but they can afford video hallway monitoring!
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: This story practically has your callous name on it.
Ben Franklin
@? Martin:
Even 10x is too low. We have 2 handguns for every 3 people in this country
US has 88.8 guns per 100 persons, yes it’s too low to have acquired all the guns in NO.
My point is that no national registrar is necessary, as the state registry seems to suffice, and I DON”T BELIEVE they had what they reportedly had, since they already tipped their hand with the statement that they first made; having NONE………
Onihanzo
@whidby: Everything I’ve read indicates that it’s far from easy (killing two birds with one stone in that link).
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Here you go. What, had you forgotten?
Or did you forget the comment you made in this very thread about how we’re not really concerned about crazy people getting hold of guns and shooting up schools if we’re not equally upset about drone strikes?
ETA: Also, Timmy, I was wondering why you hadn’t shown up much, but I notice you took the elementary precaution of changing your name so people wouldn’t automatically dismiss you as the nutjob you are.
Bernard Finel
@Pongo: Yes! Exactly. People knew about this confluence of risk. Appalling that no one acted.
handsmile
Is anyone here represented by Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY4th)? (My own representative is Carolyn Maloney, a staunch liberal, but whose offices I will be calling tomorrow to learn what initiatives/proposals she will be endorsing).
Rep. McCarthy, whose husband was killed and son severely wounded by a gunman on a Long Island RR train in 1993, is one of the few national legislative leaders on the issues of gun safety and regulation. In fact, McCarthy was one of the first to advocate and explain why the phrase “Gun Safety” should be adopted in place of “Gun Control” in these debates.
She has thought and fought long and hard for victims of gun violence as well as how to develop effective gun safety legislation within the evolving legal framework of the Second Amendment.
Like representatives of the Brady Campaign which has done essential research and advocacy on these issues for many years, Carolyn McCarthy’s voice must be more prominent and her face more visible in corporate media “conversations” about gun violence and national/state efforts to reduce it.
Or, in other words: how about the media microphone be given to some one other than Gohmert or Huckabee or some other NRA apologist/board member. The discourse on any issue of national political importance is fundamentally shaped by those the corporate media selects to speak.
Bernard Finel
@Onihanzo: yes, seriously. I agree. Given what we currently know, the mother is not a victim, she’s an accomplice.
Elizabelle
@Ben Franklin:
Cut that out. Right now.
aimai has been posting here for eons, and is highly intelligent and stable.
And you need another moniker.
Ben Franklin was greatly concerned with the common good and enlightened thought; with advancing knowledge and promoting democracy.
Maybe you just like his glasses, or shoes?
Or, God Forbid, named yourself after a five and dime.
whidby
@Onihanzo: I’m sorry – I’m not being clear.
I’m not saying that it’s easy to trace the ownership or origin of a particular weapon.
I’m saying that it would be easy to put together a fairly accurate list of who in America owns guns.
Ted & Hellen
@whidby:
It’s what she does.
Essentially she argues with the voices in her head but attributes the opposing dialogue to a commenter she disagrees with, and there’s just no use engaging.
Just pray, as I do, that Menmospleen doesn’t own an semi automatics.
Mnemosyne
@Ben Franklin:
Since she doesn’t own one and doesn’t want to own one, what’s your point? Gun ownership is automatically a sign of mental stability, and anyone who doesn’t want one is clearly mentally unstable?
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
Oh, Timmy. It’s so funny when you talk to your sockpuppet like it’s people.
Ted & Hellen
@Ben Franklin:
Ha! This has long been evident.
Ben Franklin
@Elizabelle:
I don’t care if she is Grandma Moses mimicking the Dalai Lama. She is spewing bullshit from all her orifices when she starts ham-handing her gun-control fanaticism to include Senior citizens, so just cut it out, yourself.
gopher2b
[email protected]Onihanzo:
I’m callous? Seriously.
Callous is refusing to given up a modicum of rights in the name of saving the lives of innocent children because it might lessen shoot target fun time.
Are you a member of the NRA?
SatanicPanic
@Onihanzo: That’s a horrible story, but did you miss this:
I don’t know why it’s such an insult to ask why Lanza’s mother didn’t do something similar with her guns. She might have saved a lot of lives if she had.
Ecks
@Violet: Yep, agree with everything here, and never said anything that would contradict it (though keep in mind that psychopaths and paranoid schizos are extremely rare, and they tend to end up in trouble for other illegal shit first before they start shooting lots of people, so following them more closely isn’t going to be a MAJOR plank of any effective policy).
whidby
@Mnemosyne:
Thank you for that link but I can’t seem to locate in that post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation”.
Could you do me a favor and point that out to me?
You have a tendency to concoct these bizarre statements, attribute them to people you disagree with, and then triumphantly denounce the nonsense you’ve just posted.
Raven
@Ted & Hellen: Hey douche bag II, what’s up?
gopher2b
And we’re about to enter a political war that is going to make the last presidential election look like a t ball match. So, yeah, I’m going to be an asshole. It starts with demonizing the “responsible, law abiding gun enthusiast” and likely NRA member who….whoops….let her guns slip through her fingers into her insane son’s hands.
whidby
@Raven: There’s a real problem with anger and incivility in this country.
Ted & Hellen
And now…I’ve switched over from my Whidby nym to my Ted & Hellen nym again to say that I second what whidby (me!) just posted one comment back.
Pretty soon I’ll be posting as spatula, then back over to cola noscopy, then back to whidby…this is awesome.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Wevs, sweetie. You just go on thinking that comparing drone strikes to gun control and demanding that we should solve drone strikes first because “No need to consult congress. No need to defeat the NRA. Easey-peasey.” is totally logical.
I’m done with you. Enjoy giving your blood money to the NRA.
whidby
@gopher2b: Just curious here – did you just finish up an assignment doing political consulting for the Romney campaign?
Because they were all about appealing to the base and demonizing the opposition and you can see how well that strategy works.
JWR
@Mnemosyne:
;-) Take it easy on whiff-by. It’s cut and pasted at least 5 of its own replies on this thread alone! It’s a dogs life, being a troll.
whidby
@JWR: Hey, perhaps you could give Mnemosyne a hand and help her locate the statements she attributes to me.
Because, obviously, she does need some help.
Onihanzo
@SatanicPanic: A source, if you would please, that indicates that Nancy Lanza didn’t try to minimize access to her guns from her 20 year old son.
Kay
@smith:
I was glad the drills worked, in some classrooms, to the extent that the shooter didn’t defeat them. Did you read where the one teacher discovered the lock on her door didn’t work? I expect elementary schools to look like juvenile detention facilities here shortly. That BLAAT! when the door seals behind you. Oh, well. It’s worth it if I can spare some gun owner somewhere a slight inconvenience! Happy to contribute. Anything else they need?
gopher2b
@whidby:
Last time I checked, no one in the Obama administration was complicit in the cold-blooded slaughter of an entire first grade class. Proportionality matters.
whidby
@Mnemosyne:
Gosh you were so close. Why give up now.
You said that I had made a certain statement.
i pointed out that you were a delusional nut sack.
Then you responded with a link to the post where I said it.
Now all you have to do is just quote the language in that post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation.”
Then it will be clear to everybody here that you are not delusional. That you are capable of making a rational argument.
Don’t give up now. You are so close.
smith
@Kay:
No I hadn’t seen that story about the non-working lock. Hopefully that will get fixed, but even still, I agree with you that schools will probably look like little prisons sooner or later.
Bars on windows, bullet-proof glass, armed security, etc.
Bernard Finel
@phil: I admit it. I’m crap at politics. But first steps first. Let get guns away from schizoiphrenics, and deal with rest later.
gogol's wife
@Elizabelle:
I notice all the commenters being accused of being irrational and histrionic and mentally unstable on this thread happen to share a gender.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
Res ipsa loquitur
Onihanzo
@gopher2b:
No parent deserves to be shot in the face. Any more than those children and teachers deserved to be.
And no I’m not a member of the NRA. Never owned a gun in my life. Not that that has fuck-all to do with anything, except put an abrupt end to any demonization avenues you might’ve been looking for, you cartoon-seeking prick.
And actually that pretty well explains why you’re positively giddy she was killed. It likely fits your need to dehumanize people you disagree with ideologically.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Uh, I just did. Notice the part in quotation marks? That designates the part of your post that I quoted from.
You can keep claiming that I didn’t quote you, but it ain’t me who looks delusional when people look at your post, look at what I quoted from it, and see you claiming that I never quoted you.
But I know that’s your favorite game, Timmy. If you didn’t say the exact, precise phrase, “We can’t discuss gun regulations until drone strikes stop,” then you didn’t say it, even if you say things that mean the exact same thing.
arguingwithsignposts
@Raven: Hey, it’s a troll party! All the classics are here except for ver1tas. Whee!
gopher2b
@whidby:
Last time I checked, no one in the Obama administration was complicit in the cold-blooded massacre of an entire first grade class. Proportionality matters.
SatanicPanic
@Onihanzo: Are you serious- we’re awarding points for trying now?
Elizabelle
@gogol’s wife:
You don’t say.
We can’t shoot or think straight.
And we’re down for days with hormone stuff every month, so don’t put us in a trench. No sirree.
We be no use to gun lovin’ American mens.
Elizabelle
Did I say mens.
I meant Patriots!
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: And the prima facie is? But hey, don’t let me get in the way of your jig on Nancy Lanza’s grave. That bitch deserved it, yeah?
Bernard Finel
@gogol’s wife: No. I’m also apparently a hysteric despite my penis.
arguingwithsignposts
@Kay:
I’m not. Every major crisis is the first of its kind evah and must be treated as such, complete with navel-gazing about why the media can’t get anything right in the aftermath.
Southern Beale
@whidby:
I’m suspicious of anyone who thinks they need to belong to a group that “actively lobbies for gun owners.” Pretty sure recent events show y’all have that covered.
If you gave a crap you’d resign your NRA membership.
Mnemosyne
@gogol’s wife:
Oh, I’m sure that’s a total co-inkydink. It’s just that we’re not rational and logical enough to see that drone strikes are so much worse than any mere murder of 20 kindergarteners and 6 teachers inside their school.
Ted & Hellen
OK…switching back over to whidby nym now…hold on…
Onihanzo
@SatanicPanic: And your source is? Or is idle speculation all you’ve got?
jp7505a
We are 226 comments into this thread along with many other threads without coming any closer to a solution. Over on HUFF POst, there is an article ‘I am Adam Lanza’s Mother’. It is a post from a Mother with a deeply disturbed 13 year. It describes the safe plan that her 7 and 9 year old execute when the 13 year old explodes. It describes the interactions with the police, the schools, the doctors and the helpless feeling that no one has an answer for her son’s problem. Left unsaid is the possibilty that one day in the not so distant future this boy will get a gun and kill. He already has tried with a knife.
This is the real world and there are no answers. This is the real world no snarky answers on a web blog, no gratuitous insults between posters. It is the real day to day life for this family and how it may well spill over and affect other families just as innocent as those in Newtown, Aurora, Colimbine and every other stop along this road.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
The fact that he used them, you big baby.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
The fact that he used them, you big baby.
Ted & Hellen
@jp7505a:
Oh, there are lots of solutions. Most have been around for many years. Our politicans, Dems and Repubs, have had decades to do something about this. They haven’t done so.
And we’re supposed to fix it in a BJ comment thread two days after the latest massacre…got it.
SatanicPanic
@Onihanzo: I don’t give a shit how hard she tried, she wasn’t successful. I award no points for trying.
Kay
@arguingwithsignposts:
I might wait for the tell-all book on motive and, well, FACTS. They completely made up the narrative around Columbine. None of what they said was true. It was helpful to gun enthusiasts, though, because as you recall we focused on bullying and alienated teens rather than guns. None of that was TRUE, of course, but that’s what we “debated”.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: The fact that he used them proves that his mother did nothing to try to safeguard them from him. Your tortured logic and moral acrobatics, in an effort to apologize—no I’m sorry, completely justify—a woman’s murder, is amazing.
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
That’s actually the definition of the word “quote”.
You’re an inveterate liar who lacks the capability to argue straight up. You lie about what other people say then weasel that they might not have said it, but “they meant it”.
whidby
Allow me to summarize:
Mnemosyne: “you were so very, very concerned about drones the other day and wanted to insist that we couldn’t even discuss gun regulation until all drone strikes are halted” @Mnemosyne
You have a tendency to concoct these bizarre statements, attribute them to people you disagree with, and then triumphantly denounce the nonsense you’ve just posted.
Perhaps you should try to understand what people are saying and respond to that. @whidby:
Mnemosyne: Well, then, tell us what you’re saying other than, “Drones are worse than guns, so we have to get rid of drones before we can even discuss regulating guns.” @Mnemosyne:
I will absolutely explain why I believe that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation” just as soon as you provide a link to a post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation” @whidby:
Mnemosyne: Here you go. What, had you forgotten? @Mnemosyne:
Thank you for that link but I can’t seem to locate in that post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation”.
Could you do me a favor and point that out to me? @whidby:
Mnemosyne: Wevs, sweetie. You just go on thinking that comparing drone strikes to gun control and demanding that we should solve drone strikes first because “No need to consult congress. No need to defeat the NRA. Easey-peasey.” is totally logical. @Mnemosyne:
Now all you have to do is just quote the language in that post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation.” @whidby:
Mnemosyne: Uh, I just did. Notice the part in quotation marks? That designates the part of your post that I quoted from.
You can keep claiming that I didn’t quote you, but it ain’t me who looks delusional when people look at your post, look at what I quoted from it, and see you claiming that I never quoted you. @Mnemosyne:
Onihanzo
@SatanicPanic: And who the fuck are you? Supreme Judge of Who Rightly Deserves to Be Shot in The Face? You’re a callous prick and an asshole, sir. You can dress it up all you like but that’s the truth of it. Cold-blooded murder is only ghastly except by excused degrees with you. But most importantly if the victim owned a gun. In which case, that person deserves everything they get.
Corner Stone
@SatanicPanic:
Do you have any information stating Adam had said or done any of the things “Micheal” did in the linked blog?
Is being socially awkward enough?
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
“The fact that he used them proves that his mother did nothing to try to safeguard them from him.”
Good I’m glad we agree.
I’m saying I don’t care about her and I don’t want to hear name uttered in the same sentence as the actual victims. And, when we’re assigning blame for the death of the actual victims, she deserves at least half, if not more. The fact that she is a described “gun enthusiast” and until Friday morning would have been lauded by the NRA and other gun advocates underscores the problem with any policy on their so-called rights. So, in the future, when I hear we can’t do “this” or “that” because of the “rights” of responsible gun owners will be infringed upon, I’m going to note that Ms. Lanza was “responsible” gun owner on 12/13/12.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
As I said earlier, if she was alive, she would be in jail. I don’t overly concern myself with the feelings of criminals, especially those complicit in the a crime like this.
SatanicPanic
@Onihanzo: you got me there, oh righteous one.
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: hoocoodanode, right?
whidby
@Corner Stone: I put up a nice little summary of Menemosyne’s delusional dishonesty that quotes from all of the relevant posts.
Unfortunately it’s in moderation now.
But once it’s out it will be nice to have convenient link to point back to in future posts.
SatanicPanic
I’m glad we’re focused on the real victim here. Also, drunk drivers are usually trying to get home safe, so when they die it’s just as tragic as when they kill others.
Corner Stone
@SatanicPanic: I honestly don’t know the answer to that. But I refrain from making blanket statements to facts not in evidence.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
I look forward to seeing it. It always amuses me to watch people try to justify themselves and backtrack from their statements. You didn’t really mean that President Obama should stop drone strikes before he tried regulating guns, you were just asking questions!
Corner Stone
@SatanicPanic: Well, it is a tragedy. For all involved. I’m not quite sure what point you’re striving, but failing, to make.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b:
Thankfully your opinion as to whether she’s an actual victim or not doesn’t amount to a bucket of warm piss. As regards that, her other son might disagree with your armchair condemnation, you sanctimonious sociopath. As might her ex-husband. As might the rest of her family. Not that their suffering matters to you. You’ve ingested her story from the tidbits of the internet and, from on high, have found her life perfectly expendable in the name of your personal politics.
You are a soulless piece of shit, gopher2b.
Kay
You could probably do what Bernard is suggesting, judges (some) already make “no guns in the home” a condition of a juvenile delinquent’s release to parents, but only while the kid is under community control. But you would need some sort of adjudication or proceeding or process to make a determination of mental illness=no guns in the home and then of course you would need sanctions for violating the ban. It’s part of the protection order process in my state, a weapons ban for X period, so I guess you could use a mechanism like a protection order, but those are based on actions, not “mental illness”, broadly. I’m assuming you wouldn’t want to go the whole way, and expand “incompetency” because that’s a very profound loss of rights.
I don’t know who does all that, who makes all those calls, and I’m not sure how this applies to adults. We have a lot more leeway controlling the actions of minors.
Pinkamena Panic
“whidby” is culpable in the murder of children. End of discussion.
SatanicPanic
@Corner Stone: You’re right. I’m just pointing out that Onihanzo posted a story by a woman who has a psychotic son, and when I pointed out that she rightly confiscated possible weapons Onihanzo started backpedaling. If they’re not similar then they’re not. But if Ms. Lanza knew, then it’s pretty stupid of her to keep the guns in the house.
Mnemosyne
@Pinkamena Panic:
But but but we’re all culpable in the murder of children through drone strikes overseas, so obviously we’re being hypocrites when we get upset about a mere 20 children killed in the US and want to do something about it.
As I said in another thread, whidby cares equally about children killed in drone strikes overseas and the children killed in Newtown, which by definition means he doesn’t much care about either one.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
And neither does your’s you sappy, maudlin, rainbows-and-butterflies-for-everyone, coward.
whidby
Let’s try an excerpt and see if that will get it out of moderation:
Thank you for that link but I can’t seem to locate in that post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation”.
Could you do me a favor and point that out to me? @whidby:
Now all you have to do is just quote the language in that post where I said that “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation.” @whidby:
———-
There we go. The original that is in moderation is more complete and has links back to the original posts, but I think this excerpt gives a pretty good flavor of what a dishonest person you are.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: Sadly no. Your apologism for murder and hatred for one of the victims in Newtown exists well outside the fringe. Mine happens to coincide with everyone else in America with a conscience. I’m more than comfortable with that.
It doesn’t seem like you are though.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Why, yes, it’s true, you did not use the exact phrase “drone strikes need to be stopped before we can discuss gun regulation.”
All you did was talk about how hypocritical Obama was for talking about regulating guns in the US when he could stop drone strikes at any time.
Clearly, those are two completely unrelated topics that have nothing to do with each other and couldn’t possibly be interpreted as you saying that you think Obama has to stop drone strikes before he starts talking about regulating guns. Silly me.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
Whatever. I’m glad you can find comfort with the other people who are too afraid to call out the real problem here. Wear green and white tomorrow, share hugs, and pray really hard. I’m sure that will fix things.
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
Good God you are pathetic.
whidby
@Mnemosyne:
I understand that even you have now realized that you are dishonest. Or at least that it’s apparent to anyone reading this thread that you are dishonest.
You put up what you said was a quote from me – in quotation marks. I called you on it and over the course of _9_ different posts you dissembled further.
Now, after I simply cut and pasted your dishonest posts so they could be compared easily with what I actually said, you respond with sarcasm and further back-pedaling. And speaking of back-pedaling – here is what you posted 10 minutes ago after I pointed out that you were a liar:
The shooting in Connecticut was a tragedy and there are people trying to have a serious discussion about it.
I don’t know what you motivation is – or whether you are actively dishonest or simply mentally unbalanced and incapable of distinguishing between what people say and what the voices in your head say. But you’re not worth talking to into you either get more honest or get some therapy.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Saying that the president is a hypocrite for talking about how Newtown is a tragedy because he hasn’t halted drone bombings overseas is having a “serious discussion” about gun control?
Standing on the bodies of 20 kindergarteners to defend your membership in the NRA is having a “serious discussion” about gun control?
Again, wevs, dude. Tell yourself whatever fairy stories about yourself that you have to in order to sleep at night. You can tell yourself that you’re making your next contribution to the NRA as a “fuck you” to me, who was so very meeeeaaaannnn to you when you tried to have a “serious discussion” about how drones are worse than killing kindergarteners.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: Weeeeeeeee!! More straw! More straw! Since you’re so familiar with me, maybe you might be able to repeat my position on gun safety or stricter gun laws.
Oh but damn…unfortunately for you, you don’t know the first thing about my politics or my take on this issue. You’ve been too busy defending your own obdurate position to ask.
That’s rough, buddy.
whidby
@Mnemosyne:
See: @whidby: @whidby:
You’ve made it clear that you are either dishonest or delusional.
JWR
@whidby:
“The shooting in Connecticut was a tragedy and there are people trying to have a serious discussion about it.”
And clearly, you are not of that number. You’re basically a thread-hijacking, time-wasting troll. But it’s been fun watching Mnemosyne, among others, run rings around your stupidity.
Mnemosyne
@whidby:
Only one of us is still planning to continue to be a member of the NRA even after 26 people were murdered, 20 of them under the age of 7.
I think you may see a little dissension here about which one of us is delusional.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
It’s not that I’m defending my position (which is, we shouldn’t waste our time caring about the feelings of a dead criminal), it’s that I don’t care what your position on any topic actually is, because you lack the testicular fortitude to do anything, anyway.
Onihanzo
@JWR: Mnemosyne hasn’t done anything of the sort. He’s spent the better part of the past hour obsessed with parsing semantics about drones and light years away from the core issue.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: And yet, you keep engaging with me. Fascinating.
Ben Franklin
@Onihanzo:
She’s female. The anti-gun contingent is mainly women, and the subjects who still want to get laid.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Hey, don’t go dragging me into your fight with gopher2b. That’s your deal.
If you agree with whidby that it’s hypocritical for the president to talk about the tragedy in Connecticut while continuing drone strikes overseas, then say so.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
What can I say, you keep calling me mean, so I keep calling you a p-ssy. The Patriots don’t play until tonight and I’m bored.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
What can I say, you keep calling me mean, so I keep calling you a p-ssy. The Patriots don’t play until tonight and I’m bored.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: So then masturbate with a chainsaw. Your attempt to cure your boredom’s been about as productive.
PurpleGirl
@gogol’s wife:
Another person who has been very involved with gun safety is Representative Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY4). In 1993, her husband was killed and her son severely injured by shooter Colin Ferguson while commuting home on the LIRR. She has represented the district since 1997. She has introduced a number of gun safety bills over the years. I will be looking to see what she introduces in the new congress.
Onihanzo
@Mnemosyne: I’d love to see the two of you actually engage with what is the heart of your argument and of this thread. Namely what needs to be done in regards to minimizing the NRA’s political influence, enacting stronger gun laws and trying to prevent what happened on Friday.
Instead of dancing around immaterial minutia about what someone said about drones. It’s been more than an hour and any remaining substance is fighting for its life between you two.
whidby
@Mnemosyne: ”
‘Tis but a scratch.”
PurpleGirl
@chopper: Well, depending on how long the sadness/depression lasts and how severe behavior changes are, yes, a person could become clinically depressed upon the death of their mother.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Whidby’s a troll, so there is no rational discussion to be had with him. He’s been trying to start this fight since Friday by making various offensive remarks, and I finally gave in, which I probably shouldn’t have.
I’ve posted several other comments on this thread to other people with things like legislation ideas (search “howitzer”), but you may not have been paying attention since they weren’t to whidby.
Corner Stone
@JWR:
I’m not sure how anyone could rationally conclude that.
gopher2b
@Onihanzo:
For the record, that is why I asked you earlier (before you became unhinged) whether you belong to the NRA. The single most important thing anyone can do right now is withdraw from the NRA and/or donate and join the Brady Campaign. I was just going to suggest it.
Ben Franklin
@Mnemosyne:
I finally gave in, which I probably shouldn’t have.
Gawd help the people who must deal with you in person.
Onihanzo
@gopher2b: Brother, no offense, but after that ‘[Adam Lanza’s mom] is a long way from getting what she deserves’ nonsense, you’re the last person on Earth I’d look to for any ethical solutions on this. I’d sooner solicit the higher morality of a lamp. Less prone to bloodlust, y’see.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Here’s what I was originally responding to from whidby:
And my response is, I no longer give a shit about the “99.999%” of gun owners who are just too, too delicate to accept regulation. There have been too many cases where supposedly responsible gun owners turn out to be not so responsible with those guns after all that I no longer believe that “99.999%” of them are actually responsible rather than lucky.
If you’re a responsible gun owner, you should have no problem with having your gun registered and getting a license for it. I still have never seen a rational reason for not wanting a licensing and registration program. “Teh gubbmint iz comin’ for mah GUNZ!” is not a rational reason. Red Dawn was not a documentary.
ETA: I should probably say that the above “Teh gubbmint iz comin’ for mah GUNZ!” quote is fabricated by me to make a point and is not actually meant to be a direct quote of any specific person here, since there seems to be some confusion today about how quotation marks are sometimes used in the English language.
PurpleGirl
@gopher2b: Do we know he was a sociopath? It is implied that he had an autistism spectrum disorder; is that the same as being a sociopath? Can we be more precise in describing what his potential condition was? Or not reference it until it is confirmed by either his doctor or a school system official, based on testing and evaluation?
Onihanzo
@Mnemosyne: Then if that idea is to have any chance, you have to come to terms with the monumental lobbying power of the NRA. Gun owners aren’t just a fringe subculture (I forgot who the hell said that but they’re flat wrong). They’re numerous and they pay their membership dues, dues given religiously to insure that registration legislation is dead on arrival.
EDIT: I would also add that hunting culture is HUGE in the US. And is deeply entwined with the NRA.
So how does one make the NRA toothless?
Mnemosyne
@PurpleGirl:
Given that he was (like two previous shooters) exactly the right age to have his first psychotic break if he had undiagnosed schizophrenia, I’m not going along with the “sociopath” description, or any of gopher2b’s speculations, for that matter. As kay said, there’s a lot of speculation going around that has already been proven wrong.
As far as the mom goes, it sounds like she may well have had some undiagnosed mental health problems of her own, so I’m not really sure we can assume she was a completely rational person who was making rational decisions about herself and her son. Which then gets me onto my hobbyhorse about how we really need to be monitoring kids who are being “homeschooled” a lot more closely, but that really is a completely different and unrelated topic.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Except that, as others have pointed out, they don’t even have to interfere with legislation anymore, because the NRA has captured the Supreme Court, which decided that even a basic precaution like requiring trigger locks on guns are an unacceptable infringement on one’s Second Amendment rights, because it might take a few minutes to operate it in an emergency. Seriously, look it up.
The problem goes well beyond the NRA. I do find it interesting that their spokesbots refused to appear on the Sunday talkshows today, presumably hoping that the whole thing will die down and they can start blustering about the evils of regulation again when the pain starts to recede a little.
Frankly, at this point the only thing I can see to do is get regulations passed now while feelings are high and let the Supreme Court strike them down if they want to. I am of the opinion that trying to regulate specific guns and specific ammo is a fool’s game, because there’s always something new that pops up, or some way you can modify an existing gun to make it functionally the same as a banned one. Regulate all of them, no exceptions. Everything that’s not a BB gun gets registered and everyone who owns one has a license for it. Period.
(Edited)
Corner Stone
@Mnemosyne:
The only confusion today on this topic is by you.
People who invoke “quotes” take the actual words said or typed by some person. Otherwise it’s a paraphrase or an “insight” or “interpretation”.
You, on the other hand, routinely “quote” people and then claim they’ve said the moon is made of green cheese. Because you are a liar and are clearly deranged.
PurpleGirl
@Mnemosyne: Yes. I agree with you. Until we have more information I want to curtail the speculation about what the shooter’s problem was. It isn’t helping to understand why he decided to kill his mother and shoot up the school.
I’ve known people with various mental/emotional disorders and none of them would have become killers. But they all have experienced some amount of stigma and discrimination because of their conditions. Unfounded speculation does help understanding the problem or taking action on it.
Onihanzo
@Mnemosyne:
I’m going to re-emphasize this. Simply saying the NRA doesn’t matter or shouldn’t matter is ignoring the political realities. They do interfere, with not just national legislation but state legislation and they do so reliably. Ignoring their influence is just a repeat of the 90s and the gun control message loss that followed. You can make a wishlist of all the things you’d like but until the NRA as an obstacle is removed, it’s a fantasy.
The AHSA tried to unravel and divide the NRA’s membership in favor of common sense gun laws but either didn’t have the funding or the messaging was full of holes. We need something like that again, a group of gun owners that can lead the change.
Mnemosyne
@Onihanzo:
Dude, you’ve already seen the self-justifications and demands for no new regulations by gun owners in this very thread. They are not going to step forward and suddenly agree to be regulated. Regulations are going to have to be forced on them. And, at this point, I’m fine with that, because I’m fed up with their constant excuses and justifications for how this shooting or that shooting is one-time and accidental and all gun owners can’t be held responsible for the actions of the few.
I’m not holding them responsible for the actions of others. I’m telling them they will now be forced to be responsible for their own guns and their own actions by law, because they refuse to regulate themselves.
Ted & Hellen
@Corner Stone:
She does this very frequently. Glad to see my other sock puppets finally agree with me and call her out.
Hold on…switching to Corner Stone nym again…
Ted & Hellen
@whidby:
Mostly dishonest I think. Also self righteous. And cliquish.
All in all, a really horrible combination.
John really should ban her.
gopher2b
@Mnemosyne:
The fact that so many people refuse to be regulated when children are being murdered because that regulation is personally inconvenient for them is mind boggling. It’s one of the greatest acts of selfishness I think I’ve ever witnessed.
That fact that those people appear on blog as liberal as balloon-juice is just incredibly depressing.
whidgy
Oh good, my post detailing Mneomysne’s dishonesty is out of moderation.
Here it is for easy reference: @whidby:
Ben Franklin
@gopher2b:
as liberal as balloon-juice
A couple of weeks ago, there were a total of 30 children who died at the hands of Netanyahu.
How many posts here iterated that fact? Now ask yourself how liberal it is.
Ben Franklin
Of course all 30 didn’t die at the same time, so……….
Corner Stone
@gopher2b:
I think you’re in the wrong place. This is not a liberal blog.
Mnemosyne
@Ted & Hellen:
Talking to your sockpuppet again? Did you put a little red Elmo wig on him, or is that un-P.C. this week so you switched him to Oscar the Grouch?
wiley
@Mnemosyne:
I never said otherwise.
henqiguai
@Violet (#13):
I was armed security down in DC back in the early ’70s (college job, more “entertaining” part of the city). At the time DC law required all licensed gun owners to trot on downtown to the city government center to have any and all licensed (i.e. *all*) firearms re-registered every year. Major clusterfook of a hassle. Would love to see your ideas around a major metro area like Miami, LA, or NYC.
Ramboman
@PeakVT: Stop tap dancing and say it: How do you enforce the prohibition on weapon ownership in homes where mental patients reside?
pseudonymous in nc
@whidby:
Nah, we tried that. Not exactly working out.
Time for the minority who are gun owners to make the case why they shouldn’t be “burdened” with being considered accessories to mass murder, and “b-b-but teachers can pack heat!” is spectacularly failing to make that case.
priscianusjr
@EcksThe Connecticut guy was mentally ill, but Brevik wasn’t
Brevik isn’t psychotic, but he has a very extreme narcissist personality disorder.
“The second pair of forensic psychiatrists, Agnar Aspaas and Terje Tørrissen, state that Breivik is not insane but rather is an extreme narcissist, as should be evident to all those who have heard or read his comments, regardless or whether they think he is insane. Aspaas and Tørrissen suggest that he suffers from a dysfunctional personality disorder that resembles psychopathy, with a total disregard for the well-being of other people around him. They dispute, however, the assertion that he suffers from paranoid schizophrenia or was psychotic when he carried out his attacks, which the first pair of forensic psychiatrists Torgeir Husby and Synne Sørheim had concluded in their report from late 2011.”
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/04/breivik-narcissist.html
sonmi451
Oh great, instead of actually talking gun control, let’s further stigmatize the mentally ill AND their family. And let’s have mother-bashing as well. America loves guns so much, people would rather talk about anything else it seems.
Original Lee
@jp7505a: Ditto this on access to services. Several friends are psychologists, and ALL of them are overbooked, ALL of them are working 50+ hours a week, and ALL of them are turning away new patients daily. I was asked by a parent at a birthday party this weekend if I knew of any psychologists who might have a slot for an adolescent, because her oldest kid has been having some problems with depression that just seem (to her) to be getting worse. I gave her some names, but I really had to wonder if the tragedy in Connecticut gave her the kick in the pants to get serious about finding therapy, or if she was so desperate to get her kid in that she was reduced to asking people she knew. I hope she is able to get him help soon.