Here’s most of Wayne’s speech today, thanks to Steve Benen (update: full video from Joe Patrice).
By the way, the armed Jefferson County Sheriff’s Deputy assigned to Columbine was out getting lunch when the shooting started, but he returned in time to fire at Dylan Kleibold from a distance and miss. Clearly, we need TWO armed guards at every school.
To commemorate Wayne’s little diatribe, here are the results of a PPP poll showing 63/64% support for assault weapons/high capacity magazine bans, 76% support for closing the gun show loophole, and 93% support for mandatory criminal background checks before selling guns.
Finally, I don’t know about you, but there’s no institution I trust more than the NRA to pick and train the appropriate armed volunteer to stand guard at my kid’s school. I’m sure that their Playtime for Pedophiles National School Shield Program, which Wayne proposed today, will be a resounding success.
Update: As Wayne was speaking, news was breaking of a shooting in rural Pennsylvania where four people were killed (including the shooter) and three state troopers were injured (thanks Lonesomrobot)
(h/t to Jay Rosen for the title)
maye
gun nuts’ response to gun violence is always more guns. Not surprising. What should be noted and highlighted for the general public is the extent to which they owned the U.S. Congress for decades.
PurpleGirl
New York City alone has over 1,000 schools; will the NRA be able to get the number of volunteers needed to cover those schools? One volunteer per school won’t cut it until we have instantaneous matter transmission — how else can a guard standing at the east doors get to the west doors when the gunman shows up there unexpectedly.
lonesomerobot
3 dead (not including shooter) 3 police injured in shooting while NRA presser was occurring.
http://gawker.com/5970497/while-the-nra-was-on-tv-talking-about-the-need-for-more-guns-some-guy-was-walking-up-and-down-a-road-in-pennsylvania-shooting-people?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
Alison
@PurpleGirl: It’s the NRA’s answer to the unemployment crisis!
Also, I swear, to all those so-called “responsible gun owners” in the NRA? DROP YOUR FUCKING MEMBERSHIP. I want to see you self-proclaimed responsible decent people leave this association of monsters in droves, or else you’re no better than this fucking asshole.
MikeJ
@PurpleGirl:
This sounds like a job for the New Black Panthers!
Scratch
I expect the NRA figures that along with that armed volunteer, once they get concealed carry extended to schools in all 50 states, then the school staff will also be part of the security force.
And don’t forget to pick up a few guns for last-minute Christmas gifts this holiday season! Nothing says I love you like getting a gun under the tree.
elisabeth
@PurpleGirl:
maybe we could use the National Guard? Because children should need to run an obstacle course of camo’d guns.
Quicksand
Volunteers? VOLUNTEERS?
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@PurpleGirl:
Even if we somehow harden every school and employ large number of guards, shooters will just move on to other easier targets. It isn’t as if schools are the only place where the innocent and vulnerable congregate. Shooters will just go whereever the guards aren’t.
The logical result of the NRA’s approach is a privatized police state in which every public place, and the entrance to every private home and private business, is hardened and guarded.
Betty Cracker
@Alison: Word!
Comrade Dread
Yeah, I just posted about this. It was truly amazing.
“Hey, guys… guns are good! Video games bad. We need more guns. We’ll form an NRA militia and put them in schools!”
God damn it.
Disco
It appears to me that we have (already) lost this battle AGAIN. I am shocked.
The “conversation” (I use quotes mockingly) has once again defaulted to “we need more guns to solve this problem.” We are now discussion putting armed guards in schools. We have completely moved away from discussing even the notion of controlling guns.
BARACK OBAMA: Do you have a fucking opinion on guns in schools? Now might be the time to express an opinion if you even god damn have one.
Mr President: IT’S TIME TO LEAD! IF YOU CAN’T LEAD, GET OUT OF THE FUCKING WAY!!!
rikyrah
he’s crazy.
but then we already knew that.
elisabeth
@Quicksand:
Someone posted a picture on Facebook of a dad in military uniform standing guard at his daughter’s school.
Colin Walsh
Wayne Lapierre is a weapons grade ahole!
Alison
@Disco: Umm, who is “discussing” it? No one. I see one sad old evil man saying it and the vast majority of the country showing revulsion and disgust and anger at the idea. And FFS, the President isn’t Gandalf, he can’t make shit happen overnight. He is on it, if you haven’t been paying attention…
Disco
So do we put armed guards in shopping malls too? Some of them are pretty big. How many guns would it take to “protect” a mall? I was a the Mall of America Wednesday. The place is something like 4.2M square feet.
What about movie theatres? Churches, other houses of worship?
Where do we draw the line? Should every building be a fortress? Should I be made to fear gun violence every time I step outside? Is that the culture we want in this country?
These are very serious questions that demand answers and leadership from the president.
So Mr President: ARE YOU GOING TO LEAD ON THIS ISSUE? OR ARE YOU GOING TO LET REPUBLICANS *ONCE AGAIN* CONTROL THE TERMS OF THE DEBATE?
If you can’t stand up and demonstrate leadership, then get out of the way and let someone else do it.
Tim F.
@lonesomerobot: That would never have happened if we had the sentry guns from Aliens posted at twenty yard intervals along every rural road.
? Martin
@Disco:
No we aren’t. We’re mocking a lunatic who is arguing for Stalin’s America from the right. Nobody is seriously discussing this. In fact, I’d say this presser was bad enough to ensure that any rational people that were entertaining the idea will now wholly give up on it as just stupid.
mistermix
@Disco: If you think this is losing, let me know when somebody wins. Because, to me, this is the NRA taking themselves out of the conversation.
aimai
@Disco:
Fuck off you moron. Do you not realize that gun issues are in the hands of just about every single person in congress, the supreme court, and the state legislatures EXCEPT the President? He isn’t asking people to step up and make their opinions heard because he is against strict gun control–he’s asking people to act like god damned citizens and push their bought and paid for legislatures to act before the NRA and its money bags can buy another round of legislative victories.
aimai
schrodinger's cat
I miss our old trolls, the new ones are annoying can we return them to where they came from?
El Cid
And even the NRA’s suggestion of how to protect our
gunschildren comes without pay and benefits and is just something that people can do all day for free, walk around a school with a gun.Are these to be retirees? College internships? Required community service? Docents? Forced “volunteerism” by existing employees who won’t be paid for that time?
Our children are so precious that the people walking around their schools with guns (who will Keep Them Safe just as Bush Jr. Kept Us Safe) aren’t worth hiring, and the NRA sure as hell ain’t volunteering to pay for ’em.
Disco
@Alison:
No. He really isn’t “on it.” He’s “asking” for proposals. Give me something by January. Yeah, whatever. That simply wastes time and allows other people to control the debate.
He needs to come out and express very strong opinions on what should be done — IN CLEAR TERMS. He needs to say, “NO. I WILL NOT ACCEPT PROPOSALS THAT PUT GUNS IN SCHOOLS.” He needs to go on national television and absolutely lambaste these crazy conservatives who think that the only solution to gun violence is more guns.
He needs to make his OWN proposals and submit them to congress. If congress won’t consider the proposals, then he goes BACK ON TV and makes complete fools of Agent Orange and everyone else in the GOP. This is what a leader does.
Obama won the election. It’s high time he stops acting like he lost.
Paul
First of all; what does it say about our society/our country if we need to have an armed guard at all our schools?
Second, who is going to pay for it? Surely not the tax payers. So, who then? I assuming the NRA (they have the money) since they ARE the problem.
JPL
Call, email or tweet David Gregory and tell him to cancel the interview with LaPierre.
Betty Cracker
@schrodinger’s cat: Not if they’re from Amazon.com. Those fuckers always put it off on the third-party troll purveyor.
quannlace
According to LaPierre, ‘no-gun-zone’ schools are just as just asking for it cause nutjobs know they can do the most damage without interference? Heck, why stop there? Playgrounds and public parks are begging for it too; we need armed guards there as well.
Maude
@mistermix:
The NRA wants more guns in schools. Oh, good, guns and kids in the same place.
Disco
@? Martin:
Oh really? Is Wayne La Pierre the only person who has floated the idea of guns in schools? No. That idiotic idea has been all over TV during the last week. Many people are saying it. It was on the Sunday talk shows.
Forum Transmitted Disease
Again:
Ask a heroin addict: the solution to any problem is, by some strange coincidence, more heroin.
That “volunteer” shit ain’t gonna fly, Wayne. A little guy named “Liability” is going to fuck any district stupid enough to try that with a blowtorch and chainsaw the first time something goes to shit.
Nemo_N
CNN is keeping the NRA speech as short as they can; they are only playing the “armed people at schools” part.
Because showing the nuttier parts would be partisan, I guess.
Paul
@Disco:
The primary is over and you lost. Very few Democrats agree with you. And why are you mad at Obama? Why do you like the rest of the Obama haters keep giving Congress an free pass? Are you one of the 7% who still approve of Congress? You must be since you don’t have complaints about them.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
@Disco:
If only Jill Stein were President.
She could give a strongly-worded speech, and everything would be fixed!
Disco
@Paul:
I am not giving Congress a free pass. I never said that. I know that the House will never allow any form of gun control to even be debated on the floor. I get that.
What I AM saying, however, is that WHEN (not IF) Congress fails to act, then Obama should take that failure to the American people and makes fools out of the GOP. Ask us: “Why are Republicans making our country less safe? Why do they want to put guns in your childrens’ schools? Do you want to fear guns at all times?”
Do it at the State of the Union maybe.
SatanicPanic
Columbine had a police officer but didn’t stop the killers is only proof that in that one instance a cop didn’t stop some killers. We can argue about whether having cops at school is good policy, but this obvious logical fallacy is a fat hanging curveball for the gun nuts, let’s not go down this road.
Disco
@Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God:
Obama is the president. He can command a larger audience than any other politician. That power must be leveraged. We know that speeches alone cannot make laws, but maybe a good speech can convince Americans to put pressure on their representatives. A good speech in very clear words can have an effect.
Evolving Deep Southerner
@JPL: You keep saying that, but Dancin’ Dave will never do that. Too hot a topic. I don’t watch his show, but I do hope he’ll ask the question I tweeted as a suggestion: “Was Adam Lanza and/or his mom NRA members the day they died?”
Napoleon
@JPL:
It is quite possible that the best advocate gun safety advocates (to use Fallow’s phrase) have is Wayne La Pierre. I have not heard or seen any tape of today but it sounds like he kind of came off nuts. If that is the case the more he talks the better.
? Martin
@Disco:
I realize that Steele is a political punching bag, but the former RNC chairman thought the whole thing was bonkers.
Frum:
The discussion will end now.
virginia
Kind of stunning to these moralizing demagogues and whackadoodles preach about our young people and what they need or don’t need, what they do or don’t do and blah blah blah while refusing, as adults, very well paid adults, to take responsibility for ANYTHING! It’s Mortal Kombat — no wait, it’s Natural Born Killers, and Public Enemy and, let’s see now, I dunno, Juliette Lewis and … rock and roll really, I guess. Elvis’s grinding pelvis … and … Twinkies — wait, lack of Twinkies.
I am glad as hell that this nutjob did a full on striptease all over my tv set. My blood pressure is just starting to come back down but you can’t beat this performance. This guy is a full-on lunatic and managed to shoot his beloved NRA in both kneecaps. Let’s have him on tv every day of the week, I say.
The Mayans were talking about a paradigm shift according to some. I’m a believer.
PeakVT
Wonkblog has some data on school guards.
Jennifer
This press conference strikes me as a Schiavo Moment.
? Martin
@Napoleon:
If he keeps on the way he is, that’s definitely true. Throw this man an anchor.
jimmiraybob
I don’t think that it would be too difficult to retrofit one or two classrooms to quarter a militia contingent year round. They could train on the sports field and help teach government, politics and the constitution (or as they call it, the second amendment). Funding could come from bake sales and car washes (might have to cut back on the phys ed and sports programs a bit….and music/art….probably some teachers and school nurses).
This is a totally workable plan.
Jasmine Bleach
@Paul:
Right now, the mainstream media and the NRA is controlling the debate. When people are hearing “We need more guns!” everywhere, and there is no counter-argument being presented loudly, that’s what people begin to believe. (And if you don’t believe me, then you try to explain why a huge percentage of people consistently vote against their own self-interests!)
Someone (doesn’t necessarily have to be the president) needs to stand up and say that we need to regulate the hell out of guns, do background checks for all purchases, close purchase loopholes, and eliminate sales of high capacity clips. Right now, there is no coherent message coming from gun control advocates; thus, the other side is framing the debate.
Your criticism of “why are you mad at Obama” and “why are you giving Congress a free pass”. Well, I don’t think anyone expects the House to go full on with gun control, but Obama is supposedly “left” (chuckle) and is in a position of leadership from which he might be able to use the “bully pulpit” to help reframe the debate. I know, I know. You don’t want him to do that. Not sure why, but there you go . . .
I think most Democrats want increased gun control. I would assume most are wondering where the leadership on this will be coming from . . .
Culture of Truth
Associated Press:
“Parents Hesitant About NRA Armed Schools Proposal”
.
JPL
@Napoleon: My concern is Dave is not bright enough to mention that there are a lot of gamers in other countries and the murder rate is much lower.
As was pointed out Columbine had an armed security guard and it did not stop the blood from flowing.
Do we need arms at little league games? Dave won’t ask him.
IMO, he will have a thirty minute infomercial.
Anya
President announcing Kerry as SoS.
I think Teresa Heinz Kerry is awesome.
Tom the First
The NRA just released a statement saying all rural roads should be manned by armed guards.
rachel
@schrodinger’s cat: This is one of the old ones, I just forget which; they all blend together after a while.
Gin & Tonic
I think between about a zillion moms saying “are you fucking nuts?” and an insurance industry saying “non-employees with guns? sure, we’ll be delighted to write that policy at 5x what you’re currently paying” this movement is dead out of the starting gate.
Soonergrunt
Does anyone here not think the video game industry and they lobbyists won’t come out swinging? All this multi-billion dollar industry has to do is point out that some of the worst, most violent video games made never sell in this country, and the famous games in this country sell in others but only in America are there mass shootings of this magnitude.
JPL
@Culture of Truth: Is the NRA going to pay the billions it costs to arm these schools?
Raven
@Anya: Cue the SBVT. Pat Lang will throw a fit,
Culture of Truth
AP: “School safety expert Ken Trump says it may prove difficult on a large scale to ensure that any armed security officer placed in a school is qualified and trained not just to operate a weapon but to work with children.”
Roger Moore
@Wayne La Pierre:
Maybe the solution is fewer bad guys with guns, Wayne. That way, we’re less likely to have problems even if there’s no good guy with a gun, or if the bad guy gets the drop on the good guy. Have you ever thought about that as a solution, or is the concept of fewer guns too radical to enter your fevered imagination?
Corner Stone
@virginia:
Well, honestly, Juliette Lewis in Strange Days could’ve convinced me to do a lot of really fucked up shit. Given the chance.
Face
@El Cid: I think the volunteers should be ex-cons fulfilling their community service requirements. Likely, the ex-child molesters, ex-priests (redundant), and former gang members will be tagged as suitable.
trollhattan
Shorter every fucking troll this thread will attract:
“Liberals and this blog are not helping on account of being intolerant and rude. Also, too, you can’t ever be fully safe anywhere; therefore, moar gunz.”
My kid’s school, one of about a hundred in the district, has a scattered, open campus. One “guard” per building would be half a dozen or more dudes in a district too broke to hire nurses or librarians. Yet I see no problem with Wayne-the-Bloody’s proposal.
johnny aquitard
@Disco:
Why do you so badly need a daddy figure? Do you not realize that your congress person is the one to pressure and bitch and wail at, since that branch is the only one that can create and pass any legislation that will do what you want done? Do you even understand that any change will have to be done this way, not by presidential decree?
Do you even understand how our system government works?
dedc79
Here’s a thought. If the NRA (or anyone else, for that matter) calls a press conference – the press should, before showing up to cover the press conference, find out if there will be an opportunity for questions. If they’re told no, or if they’re not given any answer one way or the other, they should just not cover the thing.
SatanicPanic
@Culture of Truth: Obviously, let’s start by limiting guns. BUT I don’t see a problem with putting the guy in bullet proof kiosk around the corner from the school. Let him be on call and he can eat donuts and watch soaps all day. This country could use more and better cops.
pseudonymous in nc
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Feature, not bug. Also helps fulfil the GOP’s desire to destroy the public school system.
Disco
@JPL:
As for paying school guards, my guess is that the proposals would go something like this:
“Schools, it’s up to you. Find it in your budget to pay an armed guard. You also foot the bill for weapons and training, and for the increased insurance costs. Don’t have the money? Then ‘live within your means’ and cut something. Don’t want to pay for guards? WELL THEN! Parents can just choose a school that ‘puts student safety first!'”
Am I way off?
trollhattan
@Corner Stone:
Never saw it, but I did see “Kalifornia.”
Yikes.
GregB
@Jasmine Bleach:
Look at the Google spikes on gun control.
That question is being asked.
LaPierre screwed the pooch and came across as slightly insane.
This is the NRA’s waterloo. No one wants a prepper nut-bag guarding their children.
Anya
@Raven: Why? Does he dislike John Kerry?
ranchandsyrup
@Soonergrunt: Why does the NRA hate our soldiers who participate in designing and marketing combat games? http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20121111/business/711119877/
zombie rotten mcdonald
Volunteers?
I wonder which school will be lucky enough to get Ted Nugent.
aimai
@JPL:
How many parents of awkward teenage boys really want each boy to pass in review before an armed court of NRA enthusiasts every day as they approach the school, shambling in their adolescent grime? While every asshole gun owner in this country is convinced that he (or she) is capable of superhuman feats of discernment and marksmanship they are equally convinced that their own asshole relatives, friends, and neighbors are entirely incompetent to handle thanksgiving, a one car funeral, or a piss up in a bar bathroom. The idea of letting your husband stand guard over your child’s school may be somewhat intellectually appealing but the idea of having your neighbors and/or strangers do so? Forget it. Even the NRA’s own membership is not that stupid.
aimai
Jeff Spender
@dedc79:
But that requires forethought and some kind of loyalty to a journalistic standard. I mean, you can’t possibly expect journalists to get off their lazy asses and put away the tape recorder and do work, can you?
What a scandalous idea. On its face, it’s dangerous. Imagine a bunch of inquisitive people running around demanding answers. The chaos. The embarrassment. Next thing you’ll be demanding that they reference their sources and end “fair and balanced” reporting.
Of all the cheek.
schrodinger's cat
OT: Not Gun related. A question for all the WP experts, what is the easiest way to get multiple menus in my WP blog header, right now I just have the free WP.com free version. Any help will be appreciated. Kthx.
Petorado
I have to agree with LaPierre to a point on the issue of media: Ted Nugent is an awful influence on impressionable young minds and should not be given a public spotlight anymore, and I’d hope supermarkets will get rid of Guns ‘n Ammo-type publications that glorify the highest tech and most lethal weaponry to every bored kid grocery shopping with mom.
And I’m glad Wayne said the public should pay more tax dollars to protect ourselves from the gun nuts he’s working on behalf of. The NRA’s “freedom” is very expensive for the rest of us in both blood and treasure.
trollhattan
@schrodinger’s cat:
Begin by shooting it.
You’re welcome! (Honestly, I don’t even understand the question.)
? Martin
@Soonergrunt:
The NRA isn’t paying attention to the enemies they’re making.
The video game industry is now 3x the size of the gun industry. The top grossing games are all first-person shooters. The political donations from the industry are almost all toward left-leaning causes.
In the race to funnel money and influence to Congress, the NRA is going to lose this one badly.
Punchy
So….news flash…Libs think the NRA’s solution is fuckin crazy. However, anyone know how his idea is playing in Wingtardostan?
Do Red moms go for this because 1) it’s anti-Obama, 2) they do whatever the NRA says, 3) they actually like the idea, or 4) all of the above? Or is it truly the unthinkable…that they are against this?
Soonergrunt
@ranchandsyrup: Well, I wonder if we should cease development of the videogame America’s Army?
Ben W
@jimmiraybob: I like it, and the American people will, too! Of course, Heinlein got there before all of us with Starship Troopers.
Disco
In the race to funnel money and influence to Congress, the NRA is going to lose this one badly.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
roc
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Two things:
One) there is no perfect solution that will *prevent* any and all shootings. So the imperfection of any given suggestions is not sufficient to rule it out as useful.
Two) there’s an extra level of interest in protecting children at school. Sensible measures (locking classroom doors) that increase safety only at schools are still worth taking, even though they do nothing for people not inside schools. These measures are particularly useful since locks on classroom doors and some shatter-proof glass for accompanying interior windows is the most rational, inexpensive and effective response available.
Forum Transmitted Disease
Disco’s got to have upper arms the size of my thighs. That guy can move a goalpost like nobody I’ve seen.
Disco: how’s the shitty artwork going these days?
schrodinger's cat
@trollhattan: Its a question about WordPress, the blog platform that our very own Balloon Juice is hosted on. I have just started a blog and am setting it up and wanted some help.
Corner Stone
@trollhattan: Not to be crass, but she could make a melted stick of butter er3ct.
Culture of Truth
The NRA doesn’t want to ban video games. They just want to draw attention away from themselves.
hoppipolla
what i want to know is why the press acquiesced when LaPierre refused to take questions? as i understand it he made that stipulation clear before he launched into his speech. i know our press is shamelessly supine, but where’s the self-respect or even occupational (i won’t say professional) vanity? why didn’t every reporter laugh in ol’ Wayne’s horrid face, turn around, and head for the nearest bar? cowards like LaPierre can’t pull a weaselly stunt like that without accomplices.
ETA: i see dedc79 beat me to it. anyway, i share your consternation.
schrodinger's cat
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Ted and Helen and Spatula have a new name now? He says the same thing in every post. At least M_C was somewhat entertaining and original. This one is just a cudlip.
ItAintEazy
@Face:
Nah, they’ll just get those teabagger “protestors” to guard the schools. They don’t seem to have jobs anyway.
Judas Escargot, Acerbic Prophet of the Mighty Potato God
I was all set to volunteer to be an armed guard at a school. But I took an arrow to the knee.
schrodinger's cat
@hoppipolla: I am sure the Pravda reporters had higher standards than the denizens of the Beltway.
gogol's wife
I just received this statement from the Coalition To Stop Gun Violence. I’m still trying to decide whom to support, but they seem faster on their feet and feistier than the Brady Campaign:
CSGV STATEMENT ON NRA PRESS CONFERENCE
Washington, DC—During a tense and sometimes surreal press conference in Washington today, National Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre took no responsibility for the tragedy in Newtown and other recent mass shootings committed by heavily (and often legally) armed gunmen. Instead, LaPierre blamed such violence on the media, the “political class,” mentally ill Americans, the music industry, the film industry, video games, the Obama administration, gun violence prevention activists, and others.
This is familiar rhetoric from an organization with direct ties to the gun industry and a financial stake in promoting the indiscriminate sale of firearms. Gun industry executives like Pete Brownell and Ronnie Barrett sit directly on the NRA Board of Directors and the organization receives millions of dollars in direct corporate contributions each year from firearms manufacturers through its “Ring of Freedom” program.
It is therefore obvious why LaPierre has little interest in de-escalating the level of gun violence we are seeing. Proposals to limit access to military-style firearms would negatively affect the NRA’s bottom line, and that is why he scoffed at those “wasting precious time debating legislation” in our Congress and elsewhere. Rather, LaPierre fell back on the tired rhetoric of “mores gun are the answer,” which has been categorically rejected by the American people.
Additionally, LaPierre’s statement calling for a “national mental health database” is completely insensitive and vilifies millions of Americans, the vast majority of who will be never be violent. The focus instead should be on the narrow group of people who are a danger to themselves and others, to make sure they are included in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Mental health and public health professionals—not the National Rifle Association—are the ones who should be taking the lead in debating the important reforms that are required in this area.
The solution to protecting our children is not to place them in the middle of shootouts between “good guys” and “bad guys.” The goal of this policy discussion should be to prevent the first shot from ever being fired. That can be addressed by enacting comprehensive reforms to keep military-style firearms off our streets and ensure that every gun sale involves a thorough background check.
We are a society awash in military-style firepower, which can be purchased with little or no screening in states across America. It is now apparent that we will never receive positive contributions on how to solve this problem from the organization whose lobbying has created it. The matter is now in the hands of the millions of Americans across this country who want meaningful reform of our nation’s gun laws.
? Martin
@Disco: If the debate shifts to ‘ban guns or ban games’, the game industry will respond with the same vigor that the NRA has.
You can always trust these guys to look out for themselves.
arguingwithsignposts
Are we at Bully Pulpit tiem yet? I love Bully Pulpit tiem!
shortstop
All of you who are pounding Disco, do you have a positive, good-faith explanation for why President Obama — if he has nothing to hide — didn’t answer Disco’s question between 12:59 pm and 1:05 pm?
I didn’t think so, bots.
arguingwithsignposts
@shortstop: Damn, you got us there, man.
schrodinger's cat
@arguingwithsignposts: Is it like Hammer Time?
shortstop
@ItAintEazy: And what could go wrong when we arm subintelligent, paranoid people with no critical thinking skills and place them in the vicinity of lots of children?
Gian
@zombie rotten mcdonald:
All girls middle school… ted can look for dates too
Kristin
I like how we’re supposed to accept limitations on the first amendment in service of expanding the second. I swear that a good chunk of people think the Constitution is just a piece of paper with the words, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” scrawled on it in crayon.
? Martin
@shortstop:
He was preparing cat food for granny’s lunch?
arguingwithsignposts
@schrodinger’s cat: I would pay good money to see Obama show up for a press conference in the Hammer Pants.
M31
The best Ring Lardner quote ever.
“The lease said about my and my fathers trip from the Bureau of Manhattan to our new home the soonest mended. In some way ether I or he got balled up on the grand concorpse and next thing you know we was thretning to swoop down on Pittsfield.
Are you lost daddy I arsked tenderly.
Shut up he explained.”
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@roc:
Yes, but reducing the number of guns in circulation has at least as good a chance of helping reduce the frequency of mass shootings as would hardening only one type of target (schools) out of many different possibilities while doing nothing about the others. Shooters may be crazy but they aren’t so stupid as to attack a well guarded facility when unguarded ones are readily available. Evidence: lack of mass shootings at airports.
Fixed that for you.
I can’t tell if you are a gun apologist (in which case [insert inflammatory insult here]) or just being contrary. For now I’ll assume the latter.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Punchy: Shit, even my moderate stepfather (two-time Obama voter) thinks the volunteer thing is a great fucking idea. My wingnut mom (who politically is a loon but knows a thing or two about mentally disturbed people AND dealing with the school system) had to break it to him that the only way this was going to work was for the campus gun-toters to be actual, real-life, trained, experienced cops.
Turgidson
@JPL:
Well, ideally, Dancin Dave would ask him some real questions and make him look like the extremist cancer on our body politic that he is. But since we know that will never ever happen and the MTP interview will probably be solely for image rehab, I agree with you.
jibeaux
Wayne LaPierre, I sentence you to live out your days on an isolated man-made island without contact with the outside world of any kind. Your only intellectual stimulus will be a radio, which will only play “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer”, “Having My Baby”, and “Copacabana” on a repeating loop 24 hours per day. You may bring a handgun with one bullet.
trollhattan
@schrodinger’s cat:
Ah, got it. I’d make an additional crack about harvesting your own FYWP moments, but that’s probably piling on.
Good luck in your quest, I’m sure this erudite bunch can conjure up a solution.
Paul
@SatanicPanic:
Who is going to pay for it? Schools are already tight for money. Furthermore, since we are dealing with schools, these guards need to have expensive background testing to assure they are not pedophiles etc etc.
Redshift
I am amused that our trolls think that the NRA and gun nuts making insane BS proposals is “controlling the conversation,” but the president treating each one seriously and giving a direct response to it is “leadership.”
Read “On Bullshit.” The point of BS is that they can make up BS with much less effort than it takes you to debunk it. If you try to rationally argue against BS, you lose, because they’re not making a rational argument. Non-gun nut Americans aren’t reacting to these proposals as “okay, those are the terms of the debate,” they’re reacting with horror (check the polls.)
Mock it, ignore it, and move forward with serious proposals. And we have to all let our congresspersons (and committee chairs) know that we are dead serious about this.) The President has talked about this a lot, including this morning’s weekly address. No matter what you trolls want, being more emo or pretending he has dictatorial powers to “take action” isn’t “leadership.”
JPL
Parent/Teacher conferences should be interesting with concealed weapons and guns in the schools. I’ve seen a few people attack coaches for not playing their sons in a game.
As that great statesman said Bring It On.
SatanicPanic
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: This doesn’t have to be an either/or. I get that the NRA is just throwing out distractions, but we could both reduce guns and increase police patrols. Japan has no guns and has cops everywhere. And I don’t see what gain there is to publicly opposing cops at school. They want to suggest this, let’s say “sure, we’ll do that. Here’s an ammo tax to pay for it.” See what the reaction is to that.
trollhattan
Speaking of the NARRRRAY (pirate edition) I discovered this site.
http://meetthenra.org/about
Which I first took to be an official page but after looking at the logo….From their “About” page.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@JPL:
Or insist he act like a real journalist.
SatanicPanic
@Paul: Ammo tax. And they should only be inside the school in an emergency.
JohnnyMac
It’s amazing what rights they’re willing to give up to keep guns – a national databse of the mentally ill? Does the federal government get to decide who goes on this list?
Mnemosyne
@Disco:
@Jasmine Bleach:
Yes, why has Obama been completely silent about gun control in the past week?
/headdesk
Maybe if you guys didn’t turn the channel every time his face comes on screen, you wouldn’t sound like fucking idiots right now.
Paul
@SatanicPanic:
An ammo tax – I like it! They apparently have the right to bear arms (I still disagree but whatever), but our government (state/federal) has every right to tax the hell out of the guns/ammo.
? Martin
@SatanicPanic:
US police too often don’t behave like Japanese police. Japanese police aren’t militarized, for one.
The gain to publicly opposing cops at school is that we should endeavor for a society where you don’t need cops at school. To put one cop in each public school in CA would triple the size of the state-level police force. To put one in each school building, would at least triple that again. We have 10,000 public schools. We built around the idea of community schools, so that we wouldn’t need to pay for buses – but now we need to pay for tens of thousands of additional police instead?
Corner Stone
@arguingwithsignposts:
You just blew my tiny little mind.
Disco
Based on responses by people who are evidently horrified that I would dare to call out Obama, I’m gathering that the following are true:
“troll” = says something I don’t agree with
“troll” = NOT an Obama apologist
“troll” = does not accept limp-dicked leadership
I guess that makes me a troll. I can live with that.
pluege
The place to start is the core of what a gun owner is:
1) a gun owner is someone who fancies killing things – period.
2) if a gun owner requires a gun for self-defense, (1) above is still true, but that person is also a paranoid psychopath.
Those two fundamental truths need to guide any discussion on gun control and what is and is not acceptable for these people to have access to.
mdblanche
LaPierre to Boehner: Listen buddy, I’m in a hurry here. Let’s try for a twofer.
trollhattan
@? Martin:
And of course, they wouldn’t place cops they’d place private security guards (barely minimum wage jobs).
State buildings and facilities are guarded by unarmed private security guards. The CHP responds to crimes but are not stationed at the buildings. Too expensive.
Corner Stone
@shortstop:
Probably on the golf course.
Emma
@Disco: I call troll. Republican troll at that. I refuse to believe a liberal can be so stupidly ignorant.
Mnemosyne
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Well, we did have one at LAX about 10 years ago, but that seems to have been a pretty clear “suicide by cop” type of situation since the airline he chose to try and attack is the one that comes with its own armed guards at the counter.
Scott S.
Pff, anyone worrying that the NRA is winning on this issue should go read some actual news. The reviews are coming in, and most outlets are in agreement that it’s a looming disaster for LaPierre and the NRA.
Mnemosyne
@Disco:
Need a little help getting that last nail in before we put up your cross, sunshine?
Disco
@Emma:
Explain. All I see here are Obama apologists.
And if you must know, I voted for him twice.
Raven
@Disco: How bout asshole, asshole?
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: You’re right. Our cops are very different from theirs, which is why, to borrow from the GOS, we need more and better cops.
I don’t think cops should be inside the school. I think the Japanese model of Kobans is great, and we could have one around the corner from each school. And, sure, I’d like to reduce the number of guns, but I also think that people aren’t going to go for that without a rise in the number of police. Part of why people feel so safe in Japan is that there are cops on almost every block. And yeah, they shouldn’t be carrying around 4 different weapons on their belt and ready to tase people for small infractions.
And if this is just a proposal that isn’t going to go anywhere, let’s put the NRA on the spot. Sure, we’ll do it, and to pay for it, we’re instituting a $10 tax on new gun purchases. Or $3 on a box of ammo. Something like that.
Donut
@Disco:
Disco, the amount of presidential breath and thought expended on this situation in the past week has been pretty goddamn remarkable, considering all the other fucking things he has to do with this time. Calm. The. Fuck. Down.
I have a six-year-old in first grade and a four-year-old in preschool, and I am scared as shit about their safety right now.
My six-year-old is the exact age of most of the kids who got killed. Every time I see one of those kids faces, or hear their names, all I see is my little girl. And I start crying. No shit, I’m Having trouble keeping it together as I type this.
Even though a lot of my fear is irrational, I’m still scared. I need leadership on this issue too, but freaking out and stamping your feet is pretty goddamn stupid. My four-year-old is more in control himself than you appear to be.
Raven
And PAT MOTHERFUCKING LANG keeps this shit up and continues to be on the blogroll. WHAT THE FUCK COLE?
“Neither Lapierre nor I expect a positive response from the Obama Administration nor the anti-gun fanatics, but NRA will win this fight at the state and school district levels in much of the country.
At the same time the president should consider what the scale of his defeat may well be in congress over the kind of law that he is clearly contemplating.
Redshift
@gogol’s wife:
Yep. If you have the choice of tracking the oh-so-sensitive “law-abiding gun owners” and Americans with mental health issues, anyone want to bet which group has a higher percentage involved in gun fatalities? But of course any tracking of gun owners who have done nothing wrong is tyranny.
trollhattan
@Donut:
Pretty sure our “new friend” is an old multiply-banned troll. Same schtick.
In other developments, WTF Karl?
http://meetthenra.org/nra-member/Karl%20Malone
Wonder how he feels about Trayvon Martin?
weaselone
@Disco:
No, trolls exhibit the following characteristics.
1) Shallow understanding and depth of knowledge of the subject under discussion. We’re talking a monolayer thickness here.
2) Complete inability to assimilate additional information on the subject of discussion regardless of repitition and use of small words.
3) Belief that actual leadership is best demonstrated in the authoritarian – follower relationship.
rob!
Sully rips the GOP a new one, then shoves his fist in the open wound.
I don’t think it’ll make a scintilla of difference, but fun to read nonetheless.
ranchandsyrup
@arguingwithsignposts: I would enjoy the hammer pants if the Kenyan Usurper had signs that said “Social Security” and “Medicare” and did a rendition of “Can’t Touch This” referring to the programs.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: That guy lived down the street from me. It was more than suicide by cop, but not a whole lot more.
My neighborhood also has the distinction of being the only US community evacuated over a bioweapons threat.
It’s a lovely place, but man do we get some weird shit here.
SiubhanDuinne
@Anya:
Assuming Kerry is confirmed, that means Elizabeth Warren will be the Senior Senator from Massachusetts! Cool.
(Edited for typo)
Emma
@Disco: (1)You don’t know how the laws in this country are made.(2)You don’t know that the President has in fact been speaking about it. (3)You don’t even know he’s already put together a task force headed by Vi8ce-President Biden. (4)You don’t know that YOUR CONGRESSMAN AND SENATOR are the weak links in this situation.
Apologists my ass.
Son, if you improve on the ignorant, the stupid might not be so noticeable.
David Hunt
@Tim F.:
Placing automated machine guns that fire at anything that moves on a road?
I salute you sir. That sounds like the average level of intelligent contribution that I’d expect a Republican to suggest.
arguingwithsignposts
@Disco:
Bless your heart. You somehow think you’re being “edgy” and “new” by coming here and spewing that bullshit. Sweetie, you’re far from innovative in that strategery.
? Martin
@SiubhanDuinne: Heh. Kerry was in the Senate for 24 years before he became the senior senator. Warren will achieve it within a few months.
jl
If we can have roombas and robots delivering drugs in hospitals, we can have robot shotgun sentries roaming within blast range of every citizen in this country.
Put it under the national security, preferrably in a black box shhh super secret no tellsees thing, and it will all be good.
Civilization advances.
I had an opportunity to go through about a year of NRA mags and mailing last weekend. All I saw as gun nut propaganda, idiotic scare stories, overt and covert gun adverts, and begs for money. Nothing on safety or training. Nothing. I asked if anyone familiar with NRA had a different experience, and all I got was that they offer gun instructor courses, and there is a crummy discount for members. Whoop dee doo!
I’ll ask again. Is there any evidence that the NRA has turned into anything other than an industry front group, whose sole missing, or 99% of its mission is sell as many guns and as much ammo as fast as possible. That is what I see from their public communications, and that is what I saw from what they send to their members.
Villago Delenda Est
@JPL:
This is where you had me.
Corner Stone
@MikeJ:
That’s actually funny.
Certified Mutant Enemy
@? Martin:
Women get all the breaks…. ;)
Seth Owen
@rob!: Yeah, Cole may fall in like with Sully again, for a little bit anyway.
Sullivan pretty much sums up the entire case, though.
I think he might be being a little unfair to East European anti-immigrant neo-fascists, though. Even they don’t try to sabotage their own economy.
arguingwithsignposts
It IS! It IS Bully Pulpit Tiem! Wheee!
Disco
@Donut:
Then you tell me. What should Obama do? You’re scared. I’m scared. I have a toddler who will be in kindergarten in three years. I can only imagine that this problem will be even worse then.
I am extremely cynical about gun politics in this country. We are living in an age when any — ANY — efforts to enact even the most rudimentary gun safety laws are met with overwhelming resistance. Ceding any ground, no matter how insignificant, is seen as political suicide.
So working within the confines of that horrendous system, the only real way for Obama to do anything constructive is to use his bully pulpit to convince ordinary Americans that (specifically) the GOP and the gun lobby are actively working to make this country more dangerous.
So far I don’t see him doing that. And I wonder if it will ever happen. Changing gun laws is difficult. But without exceptionally strong leadership from Obama, it’s only that much harder.
japa21
I am pretty confident that the reason Obama hasn’t answered Disco’s questions is that he doesn’t read tis blog. I also have a feeling that Disco’s real name is Jake Tapper, who also tends to be oblivious to reality.
Apparently Disco is unaware that just about the only public official who has repeatedly called for reinstatement of the AWB over the last few years is Obama.
Apparently, Disco also believes that Obama can make all these changes by dictate.
GregB
@Raven:
I almost had it with him over any discussion regarding the South and the Civil War, but his gun cult enthusiasms have done it for me.
Soonergrunt
@Scott S.: The fact that there was a mass shooting in Altoona, PA right as he was finishing up, 4 dead, including the shooter, 3 PA State Troopers wounded, kind of puts a grisley exclamation point on it.
Foregone Conclusion
True freedom from government overreach can only be secured by putting an armed agent of the state in every single public building in the country, at great cost to the taxpayer.
Omnes Omnibus
Didn’t the President interrupt a football game on Sunday to talk about this issue?
Raven
@GregB: I just don’t get why he’s linked here?
Chris T.
Have you noticed that after each mass killing, sales of whichever gun(s) were used to achieve said killing shoot up? Clearly gun manufacturers should be holding contests to find the people “most likely to mass murder”, and then give those men (they’re always men) whichever model needs a sales boost.
They could run these contests on TV, as a new reality show!
Hm, maybe I should not post this, someone might take it as instruction rather than satirical warning, as Republicans have been doing with Orwellian dystopias….
VillageIdiocy
The NRA has finally jumped the shark. At least Fonzie had a nice hairdo.
Disco
@japa21:
Apparently, Disco also believes that Obama can make all these changes by dictate.
No. I don’t believe that. I said so in at least half a dozen messages.
arguingwithsignposts
@Omnes Omnibus: The NRA waited until they were sure the Mayan Apocalypse wasn’t going to occur before they held their press conference. BTW, did he actually take any questions? I couldn’t bear to listen to that self-involved prick.
Roger Moore
@David Hunt:
In rural areas. Sounds like a real solution to the wingnut menace.
? Martin
@Tim F.: Got them:
The US version would of course be mounted on an autonomous UAV platform for 100% site coverage.
Villago Delenda Est
@Foregone Conclusion:
That’s logical.
That’s NRA logical.
Sure, we’re going to have a national database of the mentally ill, but we’re NOT, NOT, NOT going to track semi-automatic weapons! That would be overreach!
? Martin
@arguingwithsignposts:
Well, no. Their ‘meaningful contribution’ was to tell us to all STFU and reload.
Disco
Buying a gun should come with a few new rules. Here are some suggestions:
– 90-day waiting period
– criminal background check, mental health evaluation, DNA sample (paid for by applicant)
– limit of ONE weapon purchased every two years
– two people to vouch for you at application AND at time of purchase (Canada does this), same two people both times, background checks on both of them
– written report of gun’s intended use (hunting, sport, practice, etc.)
– no more semi-automatic weapons
– ALL weapons will have ballistic fingerprints taken
– magazines can hold a maximum of five rounds
– 300% tax on all weapon sales
– 500% tax on all ammunition
– limit on purchase of 10 rounds of ammunition per 30 days
– mandatory five-day weapons safety training (paid for by applicant)
– gun shows outlawed
– private gun sales outlawed
– guns can only be sold back to an authorized dealer
The tax can go towards a massive gun buyback program and to pay for the other things on the list. All guns returned will be recycled and destroyed. The price to be paid for returned guns would be connected to the weapon’s firepower (more deadly guns, bigger payout). And yes, these rules would apply to hunting firearms.
Don’t like any of this? Find another hobby.
Culture of Truth
“the only real way for Obama to do anything constructive is to use his bully pulpit to convince ordinary Americans that (specifically) the GOP and the gun lobby are actively working to make this country more dangerous.”
That’s you opinion. Mine is that’s an approach certain to ensure there would be no public policy changes on the federal level.
Villago Delenda Est
@arguingwithsignposts:
No. No questions at all going into it.
It wasn’t a “press conference”. It was a “press lecture.”
Gravenstone
@Disco: No, it makes you a clueless fucking moron who clearly isn’t listening to (or perhaps simply not comprehending) what has happened politically over the last 7 days. Maybe you pine for the days of il Bush as “benign dictator”?
SiubhanDuinne
@M31: Totally doing this from memory, so I expect it’s not word-perfect, but I have always enjoyed this Ring Lardner passage:
This is the Rocky Mountain goat. He watches the trains come in from the east and go out from the west, and he wonders who’s on ’em.
“Well, what did you think of the Grand Canyon?” inquired Mrs. Croot, for it was she.
“Some cave,” replied her escort.
“Why, what a funny way to put it. Now play me something.”
Without a word, Garnet Whaledriver seated himself at the grand piano. The giant Nordic allowed his fingers to wander idly over the black keys but presently found himself in the midst of Beethoven’s Fugue for Bass Drum and Cuspidor. Mrs. Croot felt faint.
“Where was you?” asked Edith Quaver.
“To the taxidermist,” replied Dorothy Abbott.
The two girls were spending the heated season at a famed watering trough. They had just bathed and were now engaged in sorting dental floss.
“I am sick in tired of this place,” exclaimed Edith Quaver, flinging a cucumber at a passing paper-hanger.
“It is mutual,” replied her friend.
Just then, the maid knocked and announced that Garnet Whaledriver was awaiting the ladies in the parlor below. The giant Nordic had seated himself at the grand piano and allowed his fingers to wander idly over the black keys, but presently found himself in the midst of Bach’s Fugue for Bass Drum and Cuspidor. Mrs. Croot felt faint.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
No, he did not.
And there were no armies of wingtards bitching about it on the intertubes as it happened, either.
Disco
@Culture of Truth:
That’s you opinion. Mine is that’s an approach certain to ensure there would be no public policy changes on the federal level.
I don’t believe there will be any changes on the federal level anyway.
I watched about 13 seconds of NRA Wayne today. Turned it off when he started in on “What if someone had been armed at that school?” Which in my opinion is tantamount to blaming the school for the massacre.
Culture of Truth
I don’t believe there will be any changes on the federal level anyway.
cripes, and you talk Obama wasting time.
Disco
cripes, and you talk Obama wasting time.
Some members of the House GOP caucus have already come out saying they won’t allow any changes. There isn’t much Obama can do (legislatively) in the face of that.
jl
@Chris T.:
Yes, I have noticed that, and it is a weird mentality. I guess most reasonable explanation is investment $, get guns now that have a higher probability of being banned or regulated. The gun nuts and quasi gun nuts in my family think that way, at least.
I had to unload, check out, and put into storage the gun collection of a late wingnut in my family. I saw some old shotguns and a 22 I used for varmints when I was a kid. Had a momentary urge to take one of them out to shoot at a target out back of the farmstead and see how good my skills with it have held up, but in the wake of a shooting, after a minute, the idea creeped me out a little. I have a hard time imagining the mentality would not feel the same way.
My non gun nut cousin who was with me said she was really good with some some version of the AR 15 or other in the military but she felt the same way.
Hungry Joe
@M31:
Agree. But Ring Lardner’s second-greatest line has to be, “His play was to shut up and he didn’t know how to make it.” (From “Alibi Ike”)
Disco
WHAT IF THE GUY WHO WAS SHOT IN THE FACE BY DICK CHENEY HAD BEEN ARMED!?
— LOLGOP (@LOLGOP)
Lojasmo
@roc:
Children at daycare, children at Sunday school, children in toy stores, children in McDonald’s playland. Putting armed guards in schools will not help ANYTHING.
graves007
What about hospitals? shopping malls? movie theatres? libraries? nurseries? etc? etc? etc?
This is just sickening to hear. The logic is so flawed I can’t even believe it’s a proposed option.
Flaw #1
It assumes that the ‘volunteer’ or guard or whatever will always maintain a stable mindset. How many times have we heard “he was such a nice guy” until he snapped and pulled a Michael Douglas in the movie Falling Down? Jus because a person passes some screening does not mean they are immune to behavioural changes.
Flaw #2
It assumes with proper “training” that the teacher or guard will not shoot wildly back at someone. History has shown these shooters have no regard for life, including their own. So a hail of bullets in the midst of complete chaos is likely from both sides, resulting in even more death.
Flaw #3
It assumes that the volunteer or guard will willingly put themselves in harms way. How many would do this if there happened to be multiple shooters (Columbine anyone?) with high powered semi auto machine guns?
Flaw #4
Logic dictates to me that if the problem is guns, then the solution cannot be more guns. Introducing more weapons into a chaotic scenario can only increase the chance of harm or death, not the other way around. This could even be tested.
Flaw #5
Assuming all school are all armed, shooters who are determined to go on a rampage will likely 1) find another location, of which there will be many to choose from or 2) head into the armed school anyway as most shooters have no regard for their own life. They may even want to die so why would they care whether it’s a gun free zone or not?
Flaw #6
With training it is assumed that a teacher will react similarly to a highly trained police officer or military person who spends huge amounts of time preparing for such scenarios. How is it possible to suggest a teacher with a fraction of this training will react against extreme stress, adrenaline, extreme fear, and the instinct for preservation of ones own life?
I suppose there are more and maybe some of these overlap, but you get the picture. The proposed solutions that most Americans agree with are a good start, but there is a much larger problem to solve, and that is Americans’ inherently aggressive nature. You’re not exactly enlightened peacenicks. The fact that almost everyone is ok with everyone owning a gun, provided they passed any new checks and balances, is still disturbing to me personally. Its certainly not a country I would ever willingly choose to live in. I like to speak my mind and argue/debate. I wouldn’t like someone shooting me over it because they felt threatened. With some 30-40 gun homicides a day (!) in the US, this is probably quite common.
I like the fact that I can go shopping and know that its almost certain no one in the shopping centre has a gun. I like it that way and dont feel threatened or defenseless in the least. Quite the opposite I feel perfectly safe.
How anyone can feel safe carrying a gun, while knowing many others carry guns is just perplexing to me.
jl
@Disco:
We have to factor in the sobriety factor of both for an analysis of that case.
Lojasmo
@hoppipolla:
Prone, rather.
jl
El río y la muerte, The River and Death, an obscure object of Bunel filmography. Check it out for a cynical view of wingnut gun fantasy view point.
Made sometime in the 50s, but IIRC, quite an interesting take on our current gun nut debate.
ranchandsyrup
Archie Bunker had them pegged 40 years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM&feature=youtu.be
gelfling545
@Disco: I have so far seen no evidence to suggest that anyone but LaPierre & his ilk are actually proposing such a thing. VP Biden met yesterday with law enforcement officials and was, if I recall, instructed by the president to present concrete proposals in Jan. I don’t know what could be done any faster.
Lojasmo
@Disco: Obvs you can live with being a douchebag as well.
Calouste
@Villago Delenda Est:
I think we should start with adding everyone who wants to buy a semi-automatic weapon to the national database of the mentally ill. Then move on to every one who buys more than two guns a year or buys ammunition more than once a quarter.
A moocher
@SatanicPanic: No, we can not argue about having armed guards in schools, because the idea is fucking insane. Pointing out that it didn’t help the one time it needed to is simply hilighting the evil preposterosity of the notion.
BrYanS
The “libertarian” at work was bitching that it was the liberals fault for stopping the government from locking up the crazy people. Let’s stop and think about this. It’s OK for lock up the crazy people as long as you don’t take their guns away.
pseudonymous in nc
@BrYanS:
I think we now have the world’s shortest political quiz to determine whether someone is a libertarian or just a spoilt bastard.
phoebes-in-santa fe
I’ve always though Wayne LaPierre looked like one of the “every man” characters in the Onion. The first guy.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/2012-in-entertainment,30776/
Villago Delenda Est
@BrYanS:
Did you point out to your “libertarian” that the big push to “mainstream” the mentally ill was in the 80’s, primarily as a measure to close facilities for them to save the shitty grade-Z movie star’s buddies from the tax burden to keep them open?
Also, too, I think the prime indicator of possible mental illness is the intense desire to possess military grade semiautomatic weapons with large magazines.
Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S.
A few things leapt out at me after watching this. First, Wayne LaPierre is about the worst speaker I’ve ever heard. He’s so bad he could be a Republican mumbling monotonously on the floor of the House. Next, I’m kind of shocked he didn’t accuse the killer of being a fanatical anti-gun crusader who only shot the children to further his cause. Third, I’d like to put on steel toed boots and kick that guy in the balls until he died.
Atticus Dogsbody
So, what programs do you cut to pay for the armed guards? Football?
Del
@Disco: Only able to buy 10 rounds every 30 days. Ah, I see. And I thought you were being serious. I can go through a dozen rounds sighting my hunting rifle in every fall and I can easily go through 100-200 in a year just practicing at the range. Why so many? Because I want to be absolutely certain that the one round I fire across my family’s field not only makes it the full 600yds, but also hits the deer I’m aiming for with an instant kill. A responsible gun owner practices, and all your proposal does is ensure they can’t.
Every one of your proposed ideas has merit except that one. All it does is ensure that people who actually use guns for legitimate hunting or training purposes will ignore you as one more blanket “ban teh gunz!” idealist.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Del:
Del,
What about a proposal that gave gun enthusiast the right to own and use large magazines and to fire off large amounts of ammo, but only within the secure confines of a licensed and regulated firing range. Sort of like saying it is OK for anybody who has the money to own and drive an Indy car or Formula I racer, but you keep it at the racetrack, you don’t drive it home down suburban streets or use it to zip down to the Seven-Eleven to get a half gallon of milk. Ditto for industrial earth moving equipment. Just because it has its valid uses and you can own one as a private citizen doesn’t mean you can just drive it down Main Street, or run it across a bridge that isn’t weight rated for something that heavy, without so much as a ‘by your leave‘ from the local authorities.
Surely there must be a way for gun enthusiasts to have legal access to the guns they want to shoot and to the amounts of ammo they need for practice without simply turning the weapons loose to go anywhere at all without any supervision or control?
SatanicPanic
@A moocher: It’s not insane. And where did you come by the idea that Columbine was the only time armed guards in a school were ever needed? Also, I’ve said it before but i wouldn’t have them walking the halls, I would station them somewhere outside the school.
And yes, I know, this is just a diversionary tactic by the NRA. That doesn’t mean it’s totally wrong.
Del
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: My rifle is a single-shot bolt-action. I only get one shot, and pistols or semi-auto rifles with high capacity clips are, in my opinion, as useful and legitimate as the whole concealed carry issue (i.e. not at all). Eliminate large capacity clips and/or semi-autos and you’ll go a long way towards removing the capacity for high body counts when a Fox Nut loses their marbles.
As for highly regulated and licensed ranges only: well, I can get behind that. I’ll have to travel a ways to go to one that caters to the ranges I fire at, but if I could only have 10 rounds at home but buy/fire as many as I needed at the range… I can live with that. Is it a feasible solution? I doubt it’d fly, but in a sane society we could at least talk about it.
Del
@SatanicPanic: We already have “guards” stationed outside of the schools. They’re called law enforcement officers, and they’re all any school needs and if they can’t help the situation no number of guards could either. Well… I suppose you could turn education into a prison industry and rebuild each school to conform to supermax standards.
SatanicPanic
@Del: I don’t recall seeing any around my son’s school this morning. His is right next to a park, there would be plenty of room to set up a little station there. I’m not saying it would be 100% effective, but based on my experience in Japan, I think we need more cops. I know “More COPS” is a tough sell on the left.
zombie rotten mcdonald
@Paul:
I also have suggested an annual Arms Tax based on the type of gun. You pay every year, just like on your house.
Del
@SatanicPanic: You’re darn right it’s a tough sell. First, you going to pay for the hundreds of thousands of armed police you want to employ? And second, you do understand that population density issues pretty much make your solution an impossibility outside of a highly populated area like Japan or a major city/large town. The school district I was in had a elementary school in one town, a middle school in another, and the highschool 9 miles outside of town between the two. Total student population spread out over the 13 age groups? About about 450. And yet at a minimum your plan would call for three security offices and officers. Not. Going. To. Happen.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Del:
I wouldn’t have a problem with somebody being able to keep a larger cache off-range (than what we are talking about here) of ammo that is exclusively for a single-shot bolt action rifle or comparable weapon that is slow in terms of rate of fire.
As I see it there are multiple problems with our nation having 100’s of millions of poorly regulated guns, but when it comes to mass shootings specifically, the central problem is rate of fire.
I’d like to see some way of making it damm near impossible for a single private individual to lay down a rapid rate of fire with legally permitted weapons, while recognizing that any proposals which effectively outlaw sport shooting are going to be much harder, if not simply out-and-out impossible, to get passed. I’m thinking there has to be way to legislate that there be safe and well regulated places for sport shooters to lay down rapid fire on inanimate targets using their weapon of choice while making it extremely difficult for that same capacity to be used outside the confines of the range. I’d even be willing to pay increased taxes for local govt to issue bonds and use them to construct appropriate facilities for doing so, to accomodate the sport shooters.
SatanicPanic
@Del: How am I going to pay for them? Dude, how are we going to pay for anything? I suggest an ammo tax. This has the double benefit of making the NRA prove whether its serious or not. Sure, it’s unrealistic, but accomplishing anything in our current political environment is unrealistic.
Mack
@Disco: (regarding comment 167) I think that’s a reasonable start.
Whidby
@Disco: where’s the rainbow unicorns on that wish list?
@A moocher: what about the National Guard? Barbara Boxer approves, so …
brantl
@Disco: Grow the hell up.
AHH onna Droid
@SatanicPanic: one, koban (no s) are an urban solution not applicable to our absurd sprawled landscape. Many us cities have a police annex or police box at strategic locations, but most us street cops have the laptop in their car.
Two, Japan feels safe b/c of very low rate of violent crime. What there is is concentrated amongst yakuza who avoid killing civilians. The low crime rate has been linked to an exceptionally low rate of societal inequality (at least among ethnic Japanese). It compares favorably to Scandinavian countries.
slightly_peeved
@graves007:
or 3) shoot the guy with the gun first. Hey, free gun!
EDIT: Or 4), do what the guy in Aurora did and conduct their massacre wearing full body armor and using a high-powered assault rifle. The guard’s odds look pretty poor then.
slightly_peeved
@SatanicPanic:
The number of times someone who was a general citizen (i.e. not a current or former police officer or member of the military) stopped a massacre by shooting the assailant: 0.
The number of times a general citizen stopped a massacre by tackling the assailant: at least 2 (Tuscon massacre, Concordia massacre).
The other big problem with the NRA’s proposal is that there are a large number of reasons not to draw a gun during a massacre. Have you identified the target correctly? At Tuscon, the person who wrestled the gun from the shooter was nearly shot by another person who’d drawn their gun. Even if you have identified the target correctly, do you have a clear shot? Will people be wounded or killed by ricochet, if not just by your shots?
When a massacre ends because the person committing the massacre gets shot, by and large it is by either themselves, or a sharpshooter. There isn’t any evidence for the NRA position, and a whole lot of clear negatives that would come with it.
Applejinx
So, everybody absolutely must be able to walk around open carrying an automatic weapon as a deterrent.
In case somebody walks into a place with an automatic weapon and begins firing it at people.
Because you can’t rely on police to handle a situation like that, it’s unthinkable and kind of disturbing.
Nope, what’s needed is to have totally random people who could be anybody, suddenly firing an automatic weapon at the bad guy. In fact, it’s necessary to ALWAYS suddenly open fire at anybody who is suddenly firing a weapon in a school or other public place.
…
Everybody duck, and this problem will end up sorting itself out in about five bloody and painful minutes. One, two, three… (lights firecracker, DUCKS)