Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

This must be what justice looks like, not vengeful, just peaceful exuberance.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires Republicans to act in good faith.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Fight them, without becoming them!

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

The fundamental promise of conservatism all over the world is a return to an idealized past that never existed.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Motown is Joe-Town!

Every day Vance writes another chapter in the book called “Worst VP Pick Ever”.

The Supreme Court cannot be allowed to become the ultimate, unaccountable arbiter of everything.

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Now all you hookers and hoes know how I feel

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A Republican making crazy remarks about reproductive rights is hardly news:

A lawmaker from northern Idaho drew audible gasps Wednesday morning when he asked representatives from the American Civil Liberties Union-Idaho if their pro-abortion rights stance also means that they support prostitution.

But I like that he speaks in Palinese with the “moreso” and the “double standard” stuff:

“It was just a question,” he said. “I do believe it’s a double standard.”

Prostitution is a choice “more so than an abortion would be,” he said.

“Because (in an abortion) there’s two beating hearts. And then there’s one,” Mendive said.

Reader Interactions

125Comments

  1. 1.

    aimai

    Moreso is incredibly popular in parts of the country. They write it as well as say it–I mean, its passed into the written vernacular.

  5. 5.

    dmsilev

    TPM this morning had this lovely headline:

    ‘We Like Sex Too’: Conservative Women Ponder The GOP’s Gender Gap

    From the story:

    When prodded by audience questions, the panelists said that contraception was a non-issue. As Hemingway put it, contraception was thought up by Democrats who found it tested well in focus groups despite being a completely settled issue. Her response was to urge Republicans to respond with their own accusations that are “just as crazy,” something like, “they’re stealing your hot dogs!”

    (link)

    I wonder whether she’s in denial about the GOP’s anti-contraception pushes, or whether she’s just lying to her audience.

  6. 6.

    Mnemosyne

    So Mendive is saying he’d be cool with prostitution being legalized as long as we blocked them from getting abortions?

  7. 7.

    Robin G.

    @dmsilev:

    I wonder whether she’s in denial about the GOP’s anti-contraception pushes, or whether she’s just lying to her audience.

    I think they’re telling themselves that the GOP is just pandering to the rubes and don’t REALLY mean it.

  8. 8.

    jibeaux

    @dmsilev: In a way, if you take my contraception, you’re kind of taking my “hot dog” too. The hot dog is none too pleased himself about the arrangement. The hot dog does not want Republicans.

  11. 11.

    aimai

    I really wish that the ACLU weren’t so polite about it and had answered:

    “We see abortion rights as more like second amendment rights–in both cases the individual has a right to self protection and to control the means of self protection. Second Amendment activists argue that nothing should stand between the individual and the individual’s right to bear arms–we’d argue that the same holds true for individual women and their right to determine whether and when to terminate a pregnancy. You can’t be for the right to own and use a lethal weapon and be against the right for a woman to choose an abortion. Its a double standard, moreso, too.”

  12. 12.

    Felinious Wench

    Prostitution is criminal activity. Abortion is not.

    For God’s sake, this is just not that hard.

  15. 15.

    Just Some Fuckhead

    “Because (in an abortion) there’s two beating hearts.

    There’s also generally two beating hearts in a prostitution scandal. Unless one of them happens to be a Republican.

  17. 17.

    MattF

    Just expressing your thoughts and then feeling the pain of having your thoughts exposed to the cold, cruel opinions of other people. It’s unfair and unconstitutional– how can you be free if people disagree with you?

  18. 18.

    General Stuck

    Kansas House Speaker Mike O’Neal is under fire after asking Republican House members to pray for President Barack Obama’s death. O’Neal made the request via an email he forwarded to GOP colleagues in the House. In an email sent in December, O’Neal asked his fellow Republicans to pray Psalm 109, which contains the following lines:

    Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

    Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/kansas-speaker-o-neal-asks-house-gop-to-pray-for-obama-s-death

    And Aunt Milly Whitehead of the Kansas Church of the Pentecost says fetch my rope, that boy gotta go.

  20. 20.

    aimai

    @Robin G.:

    That article was hysterical and I only wish I’d been at the actual meeting. How do you get away with saying that contraception and sex “tested well in focus groups” but wasn’t a meaningful issue for the voters–what is it about focus groups that they don’t understand? Its like saying “No one goes there anymore because its so crowded.” And I love the absolute, bottom line contempt of “contraception coverage is such a non issue that we can shout “I love hotdogs”” and any other old non sequiteur and the voters will vote for us. Its explicitly making fun of the voters–in this case, women in the desirable ALL OF US, Katie, age category to assert that we are so dumb that we voted for something meaningless like “random thing” when we apparently thought we were voting for policy choices.

  21. 21.

    SatanicPanic

    @dmsilev: Who are we kidding though? I’m a liberal fascist and would gladly take their literal hot dogs and make them survive on leaves and berries like my hippie comrades and I do.

  24. 24.

    Dr. SkySkull

    Dammit, Mendive’s stupid “two hearts” quote has gotten a Phil Collins song stuck in my head.

    ‘course, he hasn’t convinced me about his abortion views AT ALL.

  27. 27.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    So he’s OK with abortions up to the point where the heart begins beating?

  28. 28.

    Roger Moore

    @Felinious Wench:

    Prostitution is criminal activity. Abortion is not.

    I don’t think this argument is a winner, because we’re trying to argue why the Republicans shouldn’t be allowed to criminalize abortion, no matter how much they want to. That means we have to provide a good reason why it shouldn’t be criminal and shouldn’t be criminalizable.

  29. 29.

    BGinCHI

    How is it that the title of this post isn’t “Two hearts beat as one”?

    Solid early U2 reference.

  30. 30.

    General Stuck

    @Punchy:

    geesh, you are correct. I came across the story this morn reading my usual sites, but can’t remember which one. But the story is a year old. my apologies.

  31. 31.

    hilts

    OT

    Whole Foods CEO John Mackey clarifies calling Obama health care reforms fascism

    “On “fascism”: I made a bad choice of language. I was trying to distinguish it between socialism so I took the dictionary definition of fascism, which is when the means of production are still owned privately but the government controls it — that’s a type of fascism. However, I realize that that word has so much baggage associated with it from World War II, with Germany, with Italy and Spain, that’s a very provocative word, so I regret using it…”

    h/t http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2013/jan/17/whole-foods-ceo-conscious-capitalism

  33. 33.

    Seanly

    At least he’s not my representative… I still dob’t understand how the Reps work in Idaho, but my district has 2 D state reps (you only vote for one) & a D state senator. Our LGBT candidate for Congress lost though. :(

  35. 35.

    Comrade Dread

    Prostitution probably should be brought out into the open and heavily regulated and inspected to ensure that the women have a safe working environment, are there of their own volition, are clean, and that proper protection is used.

    They should even be able to form their own union if they so chose.

  36. 36.

    FlipYrWhig

    @dmsilev: Um, she’s aware that Republicans do in fact charge that Democrats want to steal many things, from guns to light bulbs to dishwashing soap, right?

  38. 38.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @hilts:
    from Dictionary.com:

    fascism – A governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

    Only one party I know pushing that.

  39. 39.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Comrade Dread:

    Yup, that’s probably the most sensible, humane, and responsible way to approach the issue.

    Which is why it’s highly unlikely to happen in most of the country.

  40. 40.

    Jay in Oregon

    @dmsilev:

    As Hemingway put it, contraception was thought up by Democrats who found it tested well in focus groups despite being a completely settled issue.

    Yes, that’s why Democrats forced Republican Darrell Issa to empanel a group of panty-sniffing old white men to testify about women’s health care and birth control, right before strong-arming conservative radio personality Rush Limbaugh into slut-shaming and smearing Sandra Fluke for her testimony.

    Jesus Christ, these people are never responsible for their fuck-ups.

  41. 41.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):
    Heartbeat is a big anti-choice talking point because the heart beating is one of the first things that happens in development. Yes, it’s a blob of muscle cells inside a bean, but it’s a TWITCHING blob of muscle cells inside a bean and they can phrase it so it sounds like a baby. It’s typical of their approach to all issues, form over substance and a heaping helping of self-righteousness.

  43. 43.

    LGRooney

    @hilts: So, we have a fascist health care system, a socialist military, an oligarchical financial sector, a laissez-faire regulatory system, a capitalist consumer market…

    What’s his point or does he not have one other than, “We’ll sell you organic clothes pins so you can pinch your nose while you shop in my stores?” Unfortunately, there isn’t much choice for regular grocery shopping since farmer’s markets are only occasional, MOM’s Markets are awful, Trader Joe’s is variety-limited and questionable, etc. If you want chemical-free, where else can one go? Why has no one been able to take on Whole Foods?

  47. 47.

    dmsilev

    @Jay in Oregon:

    Yes, that’s why Democrats forced Republican Darrell Issa to empanel a group of panty-sniffing old white men to testify about women’s health care and birth control, right before strong-arming conservative radio personality Rush Limbaugh into slut-shaming and smearing Sandra Fluke for her testimony.

    Stop stealing their hot dogs.

  49. 49.

    jibeaux

    despite being a completely settled issue.

    Oh, sure. Completely settled. Did he pat the women on the head while saying that?

  51. 51.

    artem1s

    @Comrade Dread:

    An easier fix for prostitution is to make pimping the illegal part. How is it not defined as sexual slavery or human trafficking anyway?

    If you are going to make prostitution legal under the ‘choice’ argument then make sure the sex worker is the one benefiting from the choice and not just acting out of fear or some cycle of forced indenture-hood. The problem with prostitution isn’t the sex part, its the slavery part and objectification that goes with it.

  52. 52.

    Chris

    @hilts:

    This is the same word-vomit Jonah Goldberg stumbled upon, which basically amounts to “I just found out fascism included a public-private partnership and so now I’m just going to use that word to designate any public-private partnership that I don’t like (while denying that farm subsidies, union-busting politicians, the military-industrial complex, and a whole lot of other things constitute that kind of “public-private partnership.”)

    It makes about as much sense as if you say “the Nazis had a government (or breathed air), liberals also have a government (or breathe air), therefore liberals are Nazis.”

  53. 53.

    scav

    @dmsilev: On the whole hotdog issue, the wrapup was pretty good too.

    Paige suggested Republicans create a bumper sticker that reads, “We Like Sex Too.” After a moment’s pause, this drew a big round of applause and even some supportive hoots from the audience.

    Hoff Sommers wrapped up the event shortly after that. “Support the Independent Women’s Forum,” she urged. “And don’t let anybody steal our hot dogs!”

    (Can they see Stockholm from their porches?) Given their support of the old white panelists and conviction that contraception is nothing women actually feel strongly about, maybe hotdog is their code for vaginal probe. Tie in their worries about energy costs aaaannnd I think I better stop. Family Values, you know.

  54. 54.

    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    A lawmaker from northern Idaho drew audible gasps Wednesday morning when he asked representatives from the American Civil Liberties Union-Idaho if their pro-abortion rights stance also means that they support prostitution.

    “Gentleman do whatever it takes to empty our coffers.
    Lap dances, champagne dances, shower dances.
    Oh, the things you can buy for a hand full of bills.
    It makes me excited.
    It gives me the chills.
    They’ll be filcher rubs, breeders, hambones and tweeners
    Zobos and debos and blorps that go, “Eenahs!”
    For a one dollar bill
    You can pull down their zippers.
    I am the Snorax
    I speak for the strippers!” – Bullock, American Dad.

  55. 55.

    JGabriel

    “Because (in an abortion) there’s two beating hearts. And then there’s one,” Mendive said…

    … Mendive then continued, “Which reminds me of a joke: What do you a call a liberal sheep? A bleating-heart ruminant! Ah-ha-ha! Oh, I slay me sometiems.”

    .

  56. 56.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @joeyess: meh, I usually agree with her, but I think she was a little too sanguine about the effect those trolls have on actual elections. The relative failure of the NRA in this last presidential election doesn’t change the fact that keepign old white people scared has worked for the Right Wing Noise Machine over the last twenty-plus years. By the time people react to right-wing overreach (1998, 2006, 2008, 2012) Newt Gingrich, Karl Rove, Tom Delay and Mitch McConnell manage to cause a whole lot of damage that’s really fucking hard to undo.

  57. 57.

    Raven

    This just in, North Georgia is freaking out because it MIGHT snow tonight! Grab your cocks and pull up your socks!

  58. 58.

    NotMax

    From 2009, Jimmy Carter on severing ties with Southern Baptists over the latter’s retrograde stances on women.

    Women and girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted interpretation of the word of God.

    It is simply self-defeating for any community to discriminate against half its population. We need to challenge these self-serving and outdated attitudes and practices….
    __
    I understand, however, why many political leaders can be reluctant about stepping into this minefield. Religion, and tradition, are powerful and sensitive areas to challenge. But my fellow Elders and I, who come from many faiths and backgrounds, no longer need to worry about winning votes or avoiding controversy – and we are deeply committed to challenging injustice wherever we see it.
    __
    The Elders are an independent group of eminent global leaders, brought together by former South African president Nelson Mandela, who offer their influence and experience to support peace building, help address major causes of human suffering and promote the shared interests of humanity. We have decided to draw particular attention to the responsibility of religious and traditional leaders in ensuring equality and human rights and have recently published a statement that declares: “The justification of discrimination against women and girls on grounds of religion or tradition, as if it were prescribed by a Higher Authority, is unacceptable.”

  60. 60.

    dmsilev

    @Raven: My parents’ next-door neighbor had a daughter who went to school at Emory. She was down visiting her daughter in Atlanta one winter when the radio announced that there was a forecast for an inch or two of snow and that (a) don’t drive unless it’s absolutely necessary and (b) if you have to drive, be sure to pack food and a set of flares just in case.

  62. 62.

    Tonal Crow

    Adult prostitution damn well should be legal and properly regulated, just as with the use of psychotropic drugs. It’s an adult’s choice what to do with her (or his) own body. Republicans keep saying that they’re all about giving Americans more choices, but when the rubber meets the road, they’re all about taking away choices.

    Also too, I don’t know what the ACLU’s official policy on adult prostitution is, but it should be as above.

  63. 63.

    Brachiator

    A lawmaker from northern Idaho drew audible gasps Wednesday morning when he asked representatives from the American Civil Liberties Union-Idaho if their pro-abortion rights stance also means that they support prostitution.

    Harlots!

    These dopes sure do have a hangup about sex.

    @SatanicPanic:

    RE: they’re stealing your hot dogs!

    Is this innuendo? A dog whistle? It’s so hard to tell with these people

    Like the old song says,

    Gotta have a hot dog for my roll.

  64. 64.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Tonal Crow:
    The Republicans are about protecting your (their) choice to deny other people their choices. I’m not even slightly kidding. Standard abusive thinking.

    EDIT – Think of it as the party of IGMFY not just financially, but in every aspect of life.

  65. 65.

    Tonal Crow

    @Roger Moore:

    @Felinious Wench: Prostitution is criminal activity. Abortion is not.

    I don’t think this argument is a winner, because we’re trying to argue why the Republicans shouldn’t be allowed to criminalize abortion, no matter how much they want to. That means we have to provide a good reason why it shouldn’t be criminal and shouldn’t be criminalizable.

    Well said.

  68. 68.

    Comrade Dread

    @artem1s: That’s part of what I meant when I said it should be heavily regulated and workplaces should be regularly inspected to ensure among other things that the women are there by choice and clean and are not there due to violence, coercion, or a drug addiction that may have been forced upon them.

    I wouldn’t agree with their choice and I find it immoral, but my moral objection does not override my thinking.

    Prohibition generally brings on more problems than it solves and I think that is the case here as well.

    I feel the same way about abortion, which is why I avidly support the president’s decision to mandate coverage for contraception as opposed to some of my more fundamentalist kin.

  69. 69.

    Tonal Crow

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Frankensteinbeck Says: @Tonal Crow:
    The Republicans are about protecting your (their) choice to deny other people their choices. I’m not even slightly kidding….

    That’s about the size of it. It’s Orwellian bullshit in the service of Talibangelism, racism, Big Bidness, gun nuts, and assorted crazies 24/7/365.

  71. 71.

    Chris

    @Tonal Crow:

    Republicans keep saying that they’re all about giving Americans more choices, but when the rubber meets the road, they’re all about taking away choices.

    The general principle is that the more people in politics try to portray themselves a certain way, the more likely it is that they’re the exact opposite. Hence the number of “Democratic People’s Republics” that are totalitarian one-man regimes.

  72. 72.

    Lurker

    @LGRooney:

    If you want chemical-free, where else can one go?

    I may have it easier than most — I live in Southern California and have access to well-stocked Ralph’s, Sprouts Farmer’s Market, Trader Joe’s, local farmer’s market and a little mom and pop shop on the corner that specializes in local and organic food.

    For dry and shelf-stable goods, consider Amazon.com. I often buy NOW Organic Macadamia Nut Oil and Bob’s Red Mill oatmeal from Amazon with Prime shipping.

  73. 73.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Tonal Crow:
    They’re a coalition because all those groups look at a law designed to give you the right to violate someone else’s rights and say ‘Sure, that makes sense to me.’ The only empathy they have is with other assholes. The businessman who wants to treat his employees like slaves naturally understands the feelings of the rapist who wants his victim to be blamed or the religious nut who wants creationism to be taught in schools.

  74. 74.

    Chris

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    The Republicans are about protecting your (their) choice to deny other people their choices. I’m not even slightly kidding.

    No you’re not. Slavery was about states’ “rights” to maintain large groups of their population in a legally subhuman status. Segregation was about states’ “rights” to deny these people their full citizenship rights. Labor disputes were about corporations’ “rights” to work their employees to death in front of a row of Pinkerton guns. “Protecting” the sanctity of their marriages means denying other people the right to marry. Etc, etc, etc.

  75. 75.

    Corner Stone

    @Steeplejack:

    What’s wrong with MOM’s? I’ve been in one only once, but it seemed all right.

    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being inside a MOM’s.

  76. 76.

    Mnemosyne

    @Chris:

    Don’t forget the Fugitive Slave Act, which was all about the slave states’ “right” to override the laws of their non-slaveholding neighbors and insist that any escaped slaves be returned to them no matter what the laws of the other state were.

    States’ rights for me, but not for thee.

  77. 77.

    Chris

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Not even sure if it’s shared empathy between assholes so much as shared hatred of liberals. Movement conservatism basically made itself a catch-all for all the people who feel slighted by the modern liberal state, and as it happens, most of these people just happen to be thugs of some kind or other whose right to tyrannize blacks/immigrants/workers/women/insert-demographic-here was stripped away from them by liberals.

  78. 78.

    Raven

    @Frankensteinbeck: Check out this shit from the Governor of Georgia:

    He also urged lawmakers to take up a broader ethics reform package that would extend to local officials as well, and cautioned them against overreaching as they devise legislation.

    “Together we will run the state rather than the lives of our citizens,” said Deal.

  79. 79.

    GregB

    My resident fascist Face Book friend ended his pro-gun tirade by claiming that the left/Democrats/Barack-X don’t care about the children of Sandy Hook because abortion! There I said it!

  81. 81.

    Napoleon

    @dmsilev:

    Here in Ohio we don’t even brush 2 inchs of snow off the car before beginning driving it if that is all we got.

    What wussies in Ga.

  82. 82.

    handsmile

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: , @joeyess:

    I understood Maddow’s point to be that the influence of trolls and trolling organizations (e.g, Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, the NRA) on electoral results and public policy-making is on the decline. I think there’s substantial evidence to buttress that opinion.

    Yet if trolls are losing their voice in the public sphere, deliberately less inflammatory and mass media-seeking organizations such as the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) now represent the vanguard of right-wing activism. Its success in recent years, particularly with gubernatorial and state legislative elections and subsequent law-making, indicate the benefit of such a change in style and tactics. Moreover, I believe trolls continue to agitate and irritate in no small part, to keep attention away from organizations like ALEC.

    Also too, Anne Laurie posted a thread on this very subject earlier today.

  84. 84.

    Chris

    @GregB:

    You too? Wingnut relative made the same thing. I have to say, it takes some breathtaking arrogance to whine about “consistency” when you’ve spent the previous month arguing against gun laws to protect the same children.

    (I suspect there’s an Internet meme going around, because it took a few hours after his initial comment on the President’s speech before he uploaded that. Ahhh, the hive mind).

  86. 86.

    Tonal Crow

    @handsmile:

    Yet if trolls are losing their voice in the public sphere, deliberately less inflammatory and mass media-seeking organizations such as the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) now represent the vanguard of right-wing activism. Its success in recent years, particularly with gubernatorial and state legislative elections and subsequent law-making, indicate the benefit of such a change in style and tactics. Moreover, I believe trolls continue to agitate and irritate in no small part, to keep attention away from organizations like ALEC.

    Back to the Talibangicals’ “stealth campaigns” of the 1980s, is it?

  87. 87.

    Howlin Wolfe

    @artem1s: Spot on, artem1s. That’s the type of analysis that a cynical snake-oil salesman republican would never undertake, because it would totally undermine his argument about choice, and betray his real lack of concern about women, children, or anybody not in his circle of republican benefactors and/or beneficiaries. Prostitution is a real result in many cases of poverty, sexism and the self-entitlement felt by johns to purchase their pleasure. If they cared about children that are actually born, they’d support measures that make it easier for families to raise them. If they cared about people having opportunities in life as they approach adulthood, they’d support policies that make education better, and higher education more affordable and accessible. But we know they don’t, because it doesn’t benefit the people they’re beholden to.

  89. 89.

    Brachiator

    @Comrade Dread:
    @artem1s:

    Prostitution probably should be brought out into the open and heavily regulated and inspected to ensure that the women have a safe working environment, are there of their own volition, are clean, and that proper protection is used.

    This is largely a fantasy that can not practically be achieved.

    It is difficult to eliminate the squalidness of the profession. Even countries that have legalized prostitution are reconsidering, in part because the illegal market thrives and expands and outreaches attempts to protect sex workers. And in countries where it is legal, too many johns seek out the illegal trade because, in the end, they want what they want, and are not concerned with the niceties that people think can be imposed.

    Pimps and madams are there because ultimately they want to make sure that customers get what they want. They will protect prostitutes if it suits them, and abuse them if it does not.

    Many prostitutes use drugs not because it is an element of coercion, but to numb themselves from the misery of their work, even if it has consensual aspects.

    And I always ask people who want to make sex work acceptable for someone else: would you work as a prostitute (male or female)? Would you date or marry a sex worker? Would you want your sister or your wife or mother or son or brother to be a sex worker? Would it be acceptable to you if your significant other said, “I need to stop after work and get some relief from a hooker before I come home.”

    Oh, and how many brothels could be established in your neighborhood?

  91. 91.

    LanceThruster

    The criminal class (i.e. political reps and such) like to keep vices illegal as a method of control lest everyone horn in on their actions.

  92. 92.

    Gravenstone

    @Napoleon: In fairness to GA, I once had to brush a couple inches of pollen off my car before I could leave when I visited a friend in Marietta.

  93. 93.

    MikeJ

    @Brachiator:

    Oh, and how many brothels could be established in your neighborhood?

    Just because I wouldn’t want to live upstairs from CBGB in its heyday doesn’t mean I’d want to outlaw live music.

  94. 94.

    handsmile

    @Tonal Crow:

    A critical difference is that ALEC, for example, is underwritten by and actively drafts statehouse legislation for vastly wealthy individuals and corporations rather than evangelical religious leaders and organizations.

    Also, its advocacy and legislative initiatives focus upon economic interests (e.g, regulatory statutes, labor rights, private enterprises replacing public institutions such as prisons and schools) instead of explicitly moral or faith-based issues.

  95. 95.

    Brachiator

    @MikeJ:

    RE:

    RE: Oh, and how many brothels could be established in your neighborhood?

    Just because I wouldn’t want to live upstairs from CBGB in its heyday doesn’t mean I’d want to outlaw live music.

    If you want to legalize prostitution, or treat it like any other business, you should have no problem with a quiet brothel being in your neighborhood (zoning issues taken into consideration).

    In the real world, I was amused at some friends who are all hot to recognize the legitimacy of sex work, but also worked hard to get a Hooters restaurant booted out of the area where there were a stretch of eateries. They also wanted to change the zoning laws so that a “gentleman’s club” could be kicked out of the area.

  96. 96.

    Ted & Hellen

    Doug, I wanted to compliment you on your new nym “Doug Galt.”

    It makes you come across as more authentically progressive.

  97. 97.

    Tonal Crow

    @handsmile: Oh yes, I understand the difference in goals between ALEC and the Talibangelists. It’s the stealth strategy that’s similar.

  98. 98.

    elmo

    @Brachiator:

    And I always ask people who want to make sex work acceptable for someone else: would you work as a prostitute (male or female)? Would you date or marry a sex worker? Would you want your sister or your wife or mother or son or brother to be a sex worker?

    A “no” answer to those questions doesn’t require a ban of the work. I would also answer “no” if you changed “sex worker” to:

    “subsistence farmer,”
    “taxi driver,”
    “commercial fisherman,” or
    “cop.”

    And the first three of those at least are perfectly honorable professions.

  99. 99.

    MikeJ

    @Brachiator:

    zoning issues taken into consideration

    That’s sort of the whole point.

    We have people here that complain non-stop about noise from bars and they moved into the neighborhood after it was well established as an area with a lot of bars. Just because those people are stupid doesn’t mean I’d outlaw bars. I just wouldn’t put them in residential areas, and if people decided to build apartments next door I’d figure they know what they were in for.

  100. 100.

    Tonal Crow

    @Brachiator:

    If you want to legalize prostitution, or treat it like any other business, you should have no problem with a quiet brothel being in your neighborhood (zoning issues taken into consideration).

    Your last 5 words are the issue here. Exclusively-residential and most types of primarily-residential areas greatly restrict the kinds of business activity residents and visitors can conduct. Permitted activities are usually those that produce little or no additional traffic, noise, litter, parking problems, etc. Many jurisdictions also have residential-area quiet hours, during which “unreasonable” noise is prohibited; these usually are from ~9pm to ~7am. Given all that, businesses that have more than a token number of walk-in clients are generally not allowed in residential areas, whatever the nature of the goods or services being provided.

    In the real world, I was amused at some friends who are all hot to recognize the legitimacy of sex work, but also worked hard to get a Hooters restaurant booted out of the area where there were a stretch of eateries. They also wanted to change the zoning laws so that a “gentleman’s club” could be kicked out of the area.

    That’s an entirely different matter from brothels in residential areas, and does indeed raise questions of hypocrisy.

  101. 101.

    Tonal Crow

    @elmo: Some on my “no” list would be:

    Republican lobbyist
    Talibangelist lobbyist
    Gun lobbyist
    Neo-Nazi lobbyist
    Neo-Confederate lobbyist
    Climate-change denial lobbyist

    That doesn’t mean I believe we should send people to prison for choosing those professions.

  102. 102.

    gocart mozart

    Doesn’t prostitution involve two beating hearts also* or am I missing something.

    *most abortions occur before the fetus’ heart has developed enough to beat.

  103. 103.

    Brachiator

    @elmo:

    A “no” answer to those questions doesn’t require a ban of the work

    Note that I have not advocated banning sex work in any comment here. I just don’t think that legalizing sex work solves as many problems as people often think.

    And I think that people who want to theoretically legalize sex work, but who would bend over backwards to keep it out of their lives and the lives of their families are just a tad confused.

    You might not want to be a taxi driver, but I doubt that you would be upset if a family member or a spouse was a taxi driver, or moonlighted as one. So, it’s a fair question, why not a hooker?

    And you would be absolutely opposed if a friend or a family member was a cop? Interesting. I could understand an almost universally despised profession, like an attorney. But a cop?

    @Tonal Crow:

    Exclusively-residential and most types of primarily-residential areas greatly restrict the kinds of business activity residents and visitors can conduct.

    Fair enough. How about a brothel next door to your place of business?

    And obviously, I am not just directing the question to you, but to all posters here.

  104. 104.

    Tonal Crow

    @Brachiator:

    Note that I have not advocated banning sex work in any comment here. I just don’t think that legalizing sex work solves as many problems as people often think.

    That’s a mighty qualified statement. Let’s clarify it. Do you advocate banning sex work?

    How about a brothel next door to your place of business?

    If it’s well-regulated (no excess noise/traffic/violent crime), well-maintained, and presentable, no, I have no problem. I view it as similar to a night-club or a bar. Very similar, in fact.

    Now, a question for you: if someone you care deeply about took up prostitution, would you advocate him or her going to prison for his or her choice of profession?

  105. 105.

    Lancelot Link

    I’m surprised nobody has mentioned David Vitter, who has a 100% anti-choice legislative record, and who we know supports prostitutes prostitution.

  106. 106.

    Brachiator

    @MikeJ:

    RE: zoning issues taken into consideration

    That’s sort of the whole point.

    As I have noted, people, even folks who claim to support legalizing prostitution, have attempted to ban sex or even just sexy businesses from areas where there would appear to be no rational zoning reason to ban them.

    But I mean, hell, we have a recent case of a teacher not being allowed to stay in her job because of her porn star past, and there is not a great deal of liberal outrage or support for her.

    A middle-school science teacher fired after students learned she had appeared in pornographic movies had hoped not just to get her job back, but to set a precedent for people looking to escape an embarrassing personal history.

    A three-judge commission put a decisive stop to both, saying firmly and unanimously that Stacie Halas should not be in the classroom.

    “We were hoping we could show you could overcome your past,” Halas lawyer Richard Schwab said Tuesday. “I think she’s representative of a lot of people who may have a past that may not involve anything illegal or anything that hurts anybody.”

    Judge Julie Cabos-Owen said such a past matters in an age when technology makes porn easy to access and hard to bury.

    “Although her pornography career has concluded, the ongoing availability of her pornographic materials on the Internet will continue to impede her from being an effective teacher and respected colleague,” Cabos-Owen said in the 46-page decision issued Friday by the Commission on Professional Competence.

    Halas, 32, was continually deceitful about her nine-month career in porn before she went to work at the school, the judges said.

    Schwab said Halas “was being honest and forthright, but was embarrassed and humiliated by her past experience in the adult industry.”

    Halas was fired in April from her job as a science teacher at Haydock Intermediate School in Oxnard after online videos of her in porn were discovered by students and teachers.

    Student claims that the teacher was moonlighting as a porn star were initially dismissed after school officials said they couldn’t find any images of her on the Internet – but they were using the school’s computers, which don’t allow access to porn.

    ETA: This is a dumbass outcome. And it’s funny how everybody in the community kinda glossed over the whole thing about their kids accessing porn on the Internets.

  107. 107.

    Sasha

    Well, I think he’s right and that we should embrace it. I have never been able to understand how a right to privacy allows me to abort a fetus (living in my body) but does not allow me to inject whatever I please or use any part of it to make a living. Just because we have an instant “Ick!” response to expanding the right to privacy to it’s logical conclusion, doesn’t make that a valid choice. Prostitution should be legal and taxed at a rate that allows sufficient monitoring to protect sex workers. I think drugs should be legal as well; again, why does the state get to decide what I put in my body. Why is it okay to use my voice to make a living but not my vagina?

    Would I want to be a sex worker or have my daughter be one? Well, I am fifty years old so I don’t see it as a viable option but my son works at McDonalds. He makes minimum wage and the management makes it a point to let their workers know how unvalued they are. If sex work was legal and safe, I would far rather see my kids make a decent living doing sex work than to grind out their lives working for Mcdonald’s or Walmart. Not everyone is overwhelmed with choices.

  108. 108.

    Calouste

    @hilts:

    Libertardian is suddenly confronted with the fact that the real world works differently from his theory. News at 11. Still not going back shopping there.

  109. 109.

    LanceThruster

    @Brachiator:

    Halas was fired in April from her job as a science teacher at Haydock Intermediate School in Oxnard after online videos of her in porn were discovered by students and teachers.

    I like science anyway, but might have paid even more attention. This is pretty sad. I consider the adult industry a legitimate profession. If she acted in a professional manner in regards to the children, that is all the matters.

    Start to worry when she engages in horseplay in the shower like that Penn State guy (Sandusky?).

    Anyway, it’s moot because the American Mutaween have spoken.

  110. 110.

    ranchandsyrup

    I agree with brachiator that legalization will not cure many of the issues with prostitution. 80%+ of the sex trade workers are not there of their own volition.

  111. 111.

    Brachiator

    @Tonal Crow:

    RE: Note that I have not advocated banning sex work in any comment here. I just don’t think that legalizing sex work solves as many problems as people often think.

    That’s a mighty qualified statement. Let’s clarify it. Do you advocate banning sex work?

    There is nothing “qualified” about my statement at all.

    Now, a question for you: if someone you care deeply about took up prostitution, would you advocate him or her going to prison for his or her choice of profession?

    I have friends who were sex workers. They didn’t do any (or much) jail time, nor would I have ever wanted them to. I have done tax work for former (and some probably still current) prostitutes, who referred their friends because, even knowing their profession, I did not judge them or treat them as anything other than a valued client who needed work done.

    Another friend was a sex worker for a time, doing “upscale” work catering to businessmen and lawyers who had a fetish for being dominated by an Asian woman. One of her clients was a judge, a woman, who prosecuted hookers by day and got her nipples clamped and pulled by them at night.

    This work was more or less consensual on my friend’s part; but it still took her some time to detox, to get over feeling scarred by seeing people at their worst, people who can pay to have any desire gratified, without restraint, and who throw off any masks of respecting another person. It’s hard to regulate this.

    I have also seen sex workers who have had all the bones in their faces broken because some men get off on being able to do whatever they want to a smaller, naked woman. I’s an extra thrill for them and an occupational hazard for sex workers. You can arrest the johns afterwards, but you cannot eliminate the on-the-job vulnerability.

  113. 113.

    Brachiator

    @Sasha:

    Would I want to be a sex worker or have my daughter be one? Well, I am fifty years old so I don’t see it as a viable option

    Don’t sell yourself so short:

    Meet the oldest prostitutes in Amsterdam – they’re 70-year-old twins
    __
    Louise and Martine Fokkens are the subjects of a recent film and a new book about their life together as ‘window girls’ – and more than happy to talk about their new-found celebrity

    And there is this, about the real side of legal prostitution:

    Louise, who left prostitution two years ago due to arthritis (“I could not do sexual positions”) tells me how things have changed for the worse since she entered the sex trade. “There are few Dutch women and no sense of community these days,” she says. The legalisation of brothels in 2000 has not improved prostitutes’ lives, in Martine’s opinion. “There is no point working just for tax. That is why the girls are working from the internet and from home – you are less likely to be spotted by the taxman. The whole family used to live off your earnings and now the tax office comes up with crazy amounts you have to pay. It is better for the pimps and the foreigners, but not the Dutch girls. The vultures came in 2000. Organised criminals. They thought, ahah, it is legalised. Now we are OK.”

    I appreciate that you considered my question about family members doing sex work.

    … but my son works at McDonalds. He makes minimum wage and the management makes it a point to let their workers know how unvalued they are. If sex work was legal and safe…

    That’s just it. You can make it legal. You can’t really make it safe, or prevent the illegal side from overtaking the legal side.

    I acknowledge and respect those who would consider sex work as just another profession. Sadly, I don’t think this will soon be the way the world treats it.

  114. 114.

    LanceThruster

    @Brachiator:

    I acknowledge and respect those who would consider sex work as just another profession.

    Sex surrogates are treated as legit by the medical community, are they not?

    I forget where I saw the parody but it described how paying for sex is illegal…unless you’re filming it.

  115. 115.

    LanceThruster

    @elmo:

    “subsistence farmer,”
    “taxi driver,”
    “commercial fisherman,” or
    “cop.”

    And the first three of those at least are perfectly honorable professions.

    xD

  116. 116.

    Tonal Crow

    @Brachiator: Objection, nonresponsive. You danced around both my questions without answering them. To reiterate:

    1. Do you advocate banning sex work?

    2. If someone you care deeply about took up prostitution, would you advocate him or her going to prison for his or her choice of profession?

  117. 117.

    Tonal Crow

    @Brachiator:

    The whole family used to live off your earnings and now the tax office comes up with crazy amounts you have to pay.

    Well, that seems like a problem with the regulation, not with the prostitution. Maybe the tax is too high.

  118. 118.

    Tonal Crow

    @Brachiator: That dismissal is, of course, outrageous. But I’m one of those terrible card-carrying A.C.L.U. types, not your run-of-the-mill Balloonbagger.

  119. 119.

    Brachiator

    @LanceThruster:

    RE: I acknowledge and respect those who would consider sex work as just another profession.

    Sex surrogates are treated as legit by the medical community, are they not?

    But this is considered therapy not just happy time; and even here I am not sure that it is considered to be all that respectable.

    I forget where I saw the parody but it described how paying for sex is illegal…unless you’re filming it.

    Sad, but true. Even here, some locals are trying to shut down the Southern California p@rn industry. And even here, the courts and prosecutors see some stuff as beyond the pale.

    The man who made such classics as Mako’s First Time Sc@t, Hollywood Sc@t Amateurs 7 and 10, and Japanese Doggie 3 Way has finally been brought to justice not for bad titles or just bad taste but for illicit obscenity.

  120. 120.

    Brachiator

    @LanceThruster:

    Sex surrogates are treated as legit by the medical community, are they not?

    Got moderated. Let’s try again. Don’t know if this is considered to be legit by all. And it comes under the umbrella of medical, so who knows.

    I forget where I saw the parody but it described how paying for sex is illegal…unless you’re filming it.

    Yeah, but even here, some stuff is beyond the pale.

    @Tonal Crow:

    You danced around both my questions without answering them

    Didn’t dance around them at all. And since I actually have friends who have been sex workers, it is not just a “what if” question for me.

    And you cherry picked the article about the elderly twin prostitutes. It ain’t just about regulation when organized crime also sweeps into what was supposed to be a nicely legalized industry.

  121. 121.

    xian

    @Chris: he is probably confused by the old Italian definition of fascism as a form of corporatism, which most people think means state control of our integration with limited-liability corporations, but is actually a reference to “corporativismo,” (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/138442/corporatism) an Italian social concept based on the idea of organizing the government based on varies “bodies” of society”:

    According to corporatist theory, workers and employers would be organized into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and controlling to a large extent the persons and activities within their jurisdiction.

  122. 122.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Brachiator: Great comment. I suppose there could be women out there who are happily hooking, but I just don’t see what is empowering about selling your body for $$$. But that’s just me.

  123. 123.

    Tonal Crow

    @Brachiator: Once again, you didn’t answer either question. I will give the jury an adverse inference instruction.

    And you cherry picked the article about the elderly twin prostitutes. It ain’t just about regulation when organized crime also sweeps into what was supposed to be a nicely legalized industry.

    Cherry-picked it? I didn’t pick it at all. You picked it. Also, organized crime has a huge part in illegal prostitution, no? Are you implying that it’s larger in the illegal kind? If so, let’s see the data. And that’s data, not anecdotes.

  125. 125.

    LanceThruster

    Oh, and as far as what someone’s daughters are doing…don’t forget the whole “Sugar Daddy” phenomenon where students are getting their tuition and expenses paid (at prestigious colleges no less) by “generous” men in return for “companionship.”

    Nudge, nudge, wink-wink.

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