Some things are just NOT okay. So much so that I don’t even have to explain why it’s not okay. For example:
On today’s TWiB Radio we talk about THAT incredible moment of either drug impaired judgement or well…we’re gonna try to be nice about this and say “lack of judgement.” PLUS: I take a moment to clarify our conversation on drones after listener feedback and we discuss the scientific reason why some of us are great test takers (I admit, I’m one of those…) and why some of us aren’t (My co-host, the PHD candidate is totally not.) Check it out here:
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On TWIB in the Morning, lead anchor L. Joy Williams & crew talks Scottsboro boys exoneration, The Democrats selling your email address, Indiana’s bill that would prohibit out-of-state college students the capability to vote, and more. Check it out here:
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And if you’re enjoying the shows we’re still asking folks to take the super quick survey for TWiB Radio (survey) TWiB in the Morning (survey) and On Blackness (survey) As per usual we’ll be all up in the comments. And as a parting shot here’s a clip of the TWiB Radio crew talking Michelle Obama’s response to Boehner at an inaugural event.
arguingwithsignposts
inb4 why aren’t you talking about drooooonnnneeeezzz.
oh, wait.
Violet
That girl is acting like a fool. Is she on something? Sure looks that way.
Elon James White
@Violet:
She says no! I can’t explain what the hell is happening there…
burnspbesq
I would guess that the young lady is used to getting her way with a giggle and a hair-flip, and it came as a real surprise to her when it didn’t work in this situation.
quannlace
Oh, is that the story of the defendant who flipped off the judge? (Can’t see the video)
Yeah, on CNN, they compared it to a scene from ‘My Cousin Vinnie.”
Violet
@Elon James White: She really looks like she’s jacked up on something. She’s not taking the proceedings seriously at all. Hopefully she’ll learn something from the experience. Sad.
Violet
@burnspbesq: That’s my guess too. She looks like she’s gotten her way an awful lot. She’s not remotely taking the proceedings seriously. She has no idea she needs to.
Ol Froth
Does she lose freedom of speech because she’s before a judge? Who is harmed here? She told someone to fuck off and gets 30 days?
Kadzimiel
The judge was a bit of a horse’s ass too. Sure, her judgment was spectacularly bad, but he looked like he was trying to run a game show, not a court at points.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Violet:
That kid was higher than you can throw a ball. She’s lost already, maybe irretrievably lost.
Ted & Hellen
The judge is a douchebag authoritarian freak. Obviously has tiny penis syndrome, his job being his opportunity to push little girls around so he can feel big and long and hard.
Seriously, “adios” is an offensive term? “goodbye,” “farewell,” “go with god?”
So what if she’s a ditz? She didn’t deserve that bullshit and he deserves much more than just the finger in response.
So now she’ll spend 30 days in jail, become emotionally damaged by the experience, and do MORE drugs. Great.
Meanwhile, George Bush walks free.
America fuck yeah.
Cacti
The young lady in question got a hard but valuable lesson.
Exercise some self-control if you find yourself in Court.
A Judge isn’t your Daddy and doesn’t have to put up with your surly attitude.
Elon James White
@burnspbesq:
OMG That’s what Dacia Mitchell said and I was like “That’s madness.” Did she really think that would fly?!?!?!?
dance around in your bones
Well, one thing I will say is that standing in front of a camera judge is probably a lot different than standing in a courtroom in front of a real judge. She may have been acting for her ‘peers’ instead of in her own interest, if she even understood them.
I also think the judge had a corncob up his ass. Lotsa judges have this ‘you must respect my authoritah!’ thing going on.
That said, she DID act kinda buzzed. Like she didn’t understand the gravity of the moment. She most likely cooked her goose when she said Adios to the(apparently from his accent) Latino judge. Toast.
ruemara
@Elon James White: You’d be surprised how many pretty young things are used to that kind of life.
Jibeaux
I don’t like people playin on my phone!
arguingwithsignposts
As to the test-taking thing, I take tests very well. I know students who don’t. It’s sad that so much of our educational system is based on punching tickets.
burnspbesq
@Elon James White:
If it’s always worked before, why wouldn’t she think it would work?
The error in judgment was in not recognizing that a trial judge is the absolute ruler of his/her courtroom. Even an absurdly overworked public defender (and yes, I recognize that “absurdly overworked public defender” is redundant) would hopefully have taken her aside and explained a few things about how courtrooms work, but either that didn’t happen or the lecture went in one ear and out the other.
ranchandsyrup
Her hedonistic calculator works as well as blenderella’s regular calculator.
Raven
She was high as the cost of living. She’s fixin to get an attitude adjustment most rickey-tic.
scav
@Elon James White: First thing she did when called back the second time was begin to pull back her hair into something less giggly and flirtatious. Seemed to switch vocab into a more courtroom vernacular. Seemed to be a lot of caracter playing, from giggly dim ingenue to cool flipping the bird to authority street style to “I do not deny it ” formality at the end.
jibeaux
In my county, the public defenders have them fill out little questionnaires for their first appearances, then they recite that info for the judge.
Raven
She let her mouth write a check her ass couldn’t cash.
arguingwithsignposts
Look at all the lawyers up in this thread.
Raven
@arguingwithsignposts: There’s a couple of people (at least one) who’ve been where she is.
jeff
Good lord, how can parents raise such a horrible child?
Ben Franklin
The breakdown in respect for authority is endemic,
Judges are supposed to be direct representatives of the Legal System. When their authority is challenged, they must respond, I guess.
I don’t know whether the young lady was high on substance or narcissism.
But I understand when people are subject to Imperious Rex, they might not want to comply.
Ash Can
There are many, many people in this world who simply do not understand just how serious an environment a court of law is. She’s obviously one. If she had any communication with any legal counsel before this, they needed to explain this to her. If they did, and she still acted like this, oh well.
Ben Franklin
Who does she think she is. Lindsey Lohan?
Egilsson
While this lady obviously exercised poor judgment, the judge was a bully asshole and that’s not his job. Too many of those guys want their ass kissed while they treat people disrespectfully. Giving her 30 days immediately was abusive and excessive, and won’t last if she can afford representation – which is crap.
TS
As if there aren’t enough people in jail already – Judges need to live in the real world and help, not hinder, a reduction in the number of inmates.
It is also way past time that courts stopped being treated as entertainment venues.
wonkie
I thought all the giggling was nervousness. Her name is Soto so the “Adios” might have been nothing more than the use of one of her languages to a judge with an accent. She clearly thinks her jewelry is valuable, but hs no idea of the value. Someone should have explained to her that the value of the jewelry would affect the amount of her bail and then asked if her jewelry was costume jewelry or precious stones. She got a nasty attitude but only after being treated insensitively. She was a first timer offended and didn’t understand stuf that might be obvious to a more sophisticated person–like the jewelry issue which refers to really valuable stuff.
Raven
I told a cop to go fuck himself once. Won’t happen again. Bet she doesn’t do this again either.
scav
@Raven: My Dad was fool enough once to learn that exact lesson in Mexico.
Cacti
@dance around in your bones:
You’re not wrong. Plenty of Judges are tinhorn tyrants in the courtroom. That’s why it’s best not to test their patience.
They have 100% of the power inside that courtroom.
Ben Franklin
@Ben Franklin:
Seriously, how is she not fucking in violation of her probation?
Egilsson
It’s perfectly legal to tell a cop to go fuck himself – and it’s ok to give one the finger too. The idea they have the right to beat or abuse you if you aren’t sufficiently respectful is crap. I acknowledge the courtroom is different but that judge went too far by a mile.
Raven
@scav: I only got my face smashed into a brick wall and cuffed, you know how they snap them on your wrists as hard as the can so it cracks down on the bone, and thrown in stir.
Raven
@Egilsson: Yea sure it is. You live in some fucking fairy world don’t you?
jibeaux
@wonkie: it is not really for bail, its for determining whether she is indigent and qualifying for a public defender. The purpose of bail is to encourage your return to court and is based on the severity of the charge and whether you’re a flight risk.
dance around in your bones
@wonkie:
Exactly – it’s as if everybody in the whole damn world should automatically understand how courts and judges and etc work just by osmosis. If you’ve never been in front of a judge (and I don’t know if she ever had) you just don’t get the deference a judge thinks he/she deserves.
I remember being in a courtroom once (for a property tax matter on a rental property – don’t ask!) and nudging/whispering to my husband to tell the judge something I wanted him to hear….luckily, I am a pasty white, so the judge was charmed rather than offended – I got to explain myself w/o spending 30 days in jail.
Courtrooms are extremely strange places if you have minimal to no experience with them. And this new ‘going to court via video cam’ is prolly even weirder.
Egilsson
Your street-weary pose is tiresome. That cops often abuse people who are not sufficiently respectful is true; pretending its ok and legitimate is not.
Cacti
@Egilsson:
It wouldn’t matter if it was the nicest Judge on the entire circuit.
Flip a judge off, your ass is going to spend time in a cell.
Raven
@Egilsson: Fuck you. No one “pretended” a goddamn thing. It’s neither ok or legitimate but for you to “pretend” it’s not real is what’s tiresome.
Egilsson
@Raven: Your street-weary pose is tiresome. That cops often abuse people who are not sufficiently respectful is true; pretending its ok and legitimate is not.
Mr Stagger Lee
@Ben Franklin: I remember Richard Davis, the killer of Polly Klass did the same thing though he did it to the media. He knew he would be executed, so what did he have to lose? Though that was nearly 20 years ago and he is still on death row.
Raven
@Egilsson: Figured out how to use the reply function did you there douche bag?
scav
Pointing out the poor judgement and social skills of someone is a bit different from legimatising the entire framework of where the poor judgement was expressed in. In an ideal world, knives and guns wouldn’t cut or shoot things other than what they intended to and when used properly. Until such time, it’s basic sense to treat them with caution and use with care. Basic sense would suggest not antagonizing a judge, even if in an ideal world they’re not over-prone to insist you treat the process and themselves seriously.
Egilsson
I think in your case the cop probably did act reasonably. You don’t bring much to the table.
Raven
@Egilsson: Yes and you are just lighting up the world with your wisdom.
Loviatar
Bail is not suppose to be a pununtive action. This young lady went from $5,000 to $10,000 in bail for telling the judge adios. She then went from $10,000 to jail for flipping him off and quite a few of you seem to OK with that. She lost her freedom for the next 30 days because she didn’t suffiently kotow to an arrogant a-hole and quite a few of you seem to be OK with that.
We’re heading on the fast train back to a fedual system; the Republicans are pushing and some of you calling yourself Democracts are quite comfortable to go along for the ride. I can’t wait for the debtors prisons to return, oh wait they’ve already returned Debtors’ Prison Is Back — and Just as Cruel as Ever.
Ben Franklin
@Mr Stagger Lee:
I remember Richard Davis, the killer of Polly Klass did the same thing though he did it to the media. He knew he would be executed, so what did he have to lose? Though that was nearly 20 years ago and he is still on death row.
Psychopaths are the exception which proves the Rule; many become free for the few, that the Many might remain free.
Or see Sir Thomas More.
Cacti
@Loviatar:
If you ever find yourself before a judge, be sure and stick it to the man.
I promise it will be different for you than it was for Ms. Soto.
Egilsson
@Loviatar: Exactly. There’s nothing particularly amusing about this and dropping 30 days of jail on her was clearly excessive and hence abusive of his authority. But some folks like pretending they are street tough, right Raven?
Dacia Mitchell
It’s really hard to say what she was thinking, judging only from the video, I certainly got the impression that she was playing coy. But maybe she thought she was living large? Asserting her agency?
Steeplejack
My thoughts on the video:
1. Ms. Soto seems to be high.
2. If the judge called her back and doubled her bail because she said, “Adiós,” as if that was disrespecting him, that seems harsh, because she appears to be a Latina (by appearance and surname) and she has a bit of an accent herself, so it seems somewhat plausible that it was just an offhand remark.
3. Can’t really defend her after she flips off the judge, though. I’m actually surprised a trapdoor didn’t open and drop her directly to the dungeons.
Forum Transmitted Disease
Jesus, that girl was a high as a fucking kite.
Maybe not the best idea for your court appearance. For drug sales. He knew she was higher than Everest, was looking for an excuse to throw her ass in the slammer for it, and she gave him one.
And yeah, he’s an asshole. But the world is full of assholes and you gotta learn to step carefully around them when they’re in positions of power. She learned a harsh lesson, and one that isn’t going to benefit the greater interests of society.
mai naem
Wow, I think you guys are being a tad too harsh on her. She’s an eighteen year old immature bimbo. Not even sure if she’s graduated high school yet. Yeah, she did something very very stupid but a lot of people do really really stupid stuff when they’re eighteen. She was in for drug possession – from what i can figure out Xanax. She came back to court and it sounds like she’s going to go through drug court.
http://www.nbcmiami.com/video/#!/news/local/Penelope-Soto-Returns-to-Court/190056161
Luckily for her shes not going to that hell hole drug court in Georgia that Ira Glass did a story on on TAL.
I went to court on a traffic ticket. I honestly had mixed up the court dates but a few days and didn’t realize I had the wrong date till I pulled out the paperwork to go on the date that I thought it was on. Anyhow, I went in and filled out the paperwork with the “why do you think the judge should listen to you blah blah blah” The judge wouldn’t let me take traffic school basically because I forgot and he was being a dick about in in a “You forgot ME. How dare you forget ME?”. To this day, I strongly feel I should have lied and made up some BS excuse instead of being honest.BTW, I was perfectly polite throught the whole thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack: This is about right. Doubling bail for the “Adiós” is bullshit. On the other hand, flipping off the judge is flat out contempt of court. These are two separate issues.
@dance around in your bones: A lot of courts do initial appearance this way. A trial itself would not be done in this way. All that happens at the initial appearance is that the charges are read, an initial plea is entered, a bail determination is made, the case is assigned out for trial. This girl should have had a chance to, and probably did, consult with a public defender prior to this. The lawyer would certainly have covered how to behave in court.
Ben Franklin
@Steeplejack:
I’m actually surprised a trapdoor didn’t open and drop her directly to the dungeons.
That would be your preference? Maybe some kidney contusions to add some luster to the event.
Yutsano
@efgoldman:
Well no one is perfect…
James Gary
Just to stick my oar in: the level of “How DARE she not show proper respect for an AUTHORITY FIGURE?” on this thread is f*cking appalling.
Edit: specifically you, Raven. I don’t care what you’ve lived through. Coming down hard on someone solely for “disrespecting your office” is bullsh*t, bullsh*t, bulsh*t.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ben Franklin: Of course, the fact that Steep was expressed surprise that something did not happen means he was in favor of it happening. Right. Jesus.
Very simple fact: if you flip off a judge who is on the bench, the judge will find you in contempt of court.
Egilsson
@efgoldman: you know nothing about me or what I have experienced in my life. I’m not big on poseurs. The Kool Kidz Klub stuff is amusing. I’ve been around a long time actually.
Omnes Omnibus
@James Gary: Actually, I am not getting a “how dare she” vibe, but rather a “this is what happens when you do that” vibe. Also, the respect for the court and follow the rules within it system is designed to make the court work. Finally, I would not be surprised if, after her lawyer talks to her, she gets a chance to go in front of the judge to apologize and he reduces the contempt time.
Corner Stone
Man. The level of Motherfucker squared to Authoritarian Asshole on this thread is really reassuring.
Maybe the judge should have had her stripped, tied down and flayed.
James Gary
@Omnes Omnibus: You can split hairs over “vibes” all you want. The fact is, she’s likely to spend 30 days in jail–something I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemies–for making a hand gesture. F*ck that, I say, and f*ck the system that lets it happen.
Egilsson
@Omnes Omnibus: it’s fine to say she should be in contempt; I agree. I disagree with cranking her bail up to $10k and then an immediate 30 day jail sentence. That sentence won’t withstand any scrutiny so it was abusive to impose it. A couple of days, maybe, but not 30.
jefft452
@Loviatar: “Bail is not suppose to be a pununtive action. This young lady went from $5,000 to $10,000 in bail for telling the judge adios. She then went from $10,000 to jail for flipping him off”
The 30 days in jail was for contempt of court
nothing to do with her bail
Cacti
@Corner Stone:
Fight the power brother Corner Stone!
Flipping off the judge will really show him…
What an idiot you are.
Ben Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
I asked a leading question, that’s all. The conclusion you jumped to defend was already on your mind. What is so difficult to see here? Dissidents come in many forms. ( I’m not saying she was a dissident, I hope you understand) and public demonstrations, whatever their non-violent/Non-cooperative form, have a place in daily life. You suggest Court is the wrong place for that. I posit the opposite view. J’cuse !. Court may the Best place for such a demonstration.
eemom
@efgoldman:
Why would anyone worship the Securities Exchange Commission?
Ben Franklin
@Cacti:
What an idiot you are.
All Hail Caesar !!!
James Gary
@Cacti: Yeah…we should ALL instinctively know when to be properly deferential to those in power, right? Should I add “stupid wetback b*tch had it comin’?”
Cacti
@James Gary:
I know brother James.
Contempt of Court was invented by Dick Cheney, circa 2001.
Why, it used to be you could just jump up on counsel’s table, grab your crotch and shout “I got your bail right here motha fucker!”
Please find your 9th grade civics teacher and apologize for the time they wasted on you.
eemom
Also too, wtf are you all even arguing about? Cannot both concepts — that the kid is a clueless twit learning a very hard lesson, and that the judge is an asshole power freak — coexist in the same reality?
Ash Can
Like I said, there are many, many people who just don’t understand the deal with courts of law.
Omnes Omnibus
@James Gary: As I noted above, I would not be at all surprised it the 30 days is reduced. Okay though, fuck the system.
@Egilsson: Doubling her bail was complete bullshit. The 30 days for contempt is a different thing procedurally.
@eemom: The bail doubling was an asshole move by that judge. Really shitty.
James Gary
@Cacti: Why, it used to be you could just jump up on counsel’s table, grab your crotch and shout “I got your bail right here motha fucker!”
Please find your 9th grade civics teacher and apologize for the time they wasted on you.
No “civics lesson” like a 30-day jail sentence, eh Cacti? By the way, you ever been in jail?
Cacti
@James Gary:
Every jail in Maricopa County, AZ.
And you?
GregB
I always recommend that the judge be referred to as judgy wudgy.
James Gary
@Cacti: I see you’ve been well trained.
FYI: I’ve never been in jail (knock wood) but many of my friends are lawyers and I hear stories about the Penelope Sotos of the world all the time.
Omnes Omnibus
@Egilsson: Also, I agree with you that the 30 days was far too much. Either the judge overreacted which would surprise me given that he had just doubled her bail for not reason or he was doing it to shock her and teach her a lesson with the intention of decreasing it after she had a little time to contemplate her situation. In either case, I would be very surprised if she actually served anything like the 30 days.
Corner Stone
@efgoldman: Who here would stop him?
Clarity
The level of Dumb Motherfucker in this thread is astonishing. Her bail was doubled NOT for using the word “adios,” but for EVERYTHING that had transpired up to that point: the hair-flipping, the giggling, the REFUSAL to answer questions, the generally disrespectful tone. The contempt finding was for SAYING, in open court, “fuck you” to the judge, with an accompanying gesture. I guarantee that any judge who lets just ONE idiot get away with that behavior will get it all day, every day. This girl was asking for trouble, and the judge gave it to her.
Cacti
@James Gary:
I no longer practice criminal law, but sometimes I wish I could still be around for the Penelope Soto’s of the world, to whisper STFU in their ear when they’re about to dig their hole deeper.
Corner Stone
@Cacti:
What else amigo?
I’ll never understand people like you choking down the cock of people with more “legit” power or authority than you.
Do you, or anyone here, remember the very recent case of the judge who got shoved into jail for selling innocent kids into prisons because he was getting kickbacks?
Let’s all just go home and bake our frozen pizza rather than wonder wtf this judge thought he was doing.
shortstop
James Gary: You elitist authoritarian scum! Your coddled ass has no idea what jail is like or you wouldn’t take this attitude!
Cacti: I’ve been in jail, actually, so I do know what I’m talking about.
James Gary: You fucking jailbird! Authorities bent your mind so much in there you can’t even appreciate the third hand truths I’m bringing you from this comfortable armchair!
Corner Stone
@Clarity: I hope you’ve got a lot of time on your hands.
Cacti
@Corner Stone:
Meanwhile, in the real world, I’ve kept people like Penelope Soto out of jails.
Corner Stone
@shortstop: Cacti has never “been” in jail. Cacti has been “to” jail.
Not that I care either way.
Authoritarians gotta authoritate.
shortstop
@Corner Stone: hey, I remember that case! Horrifying doesn’t begin to describe it. Thank god it’s got fuck-all to do with this one.
Omnes Omnibus
@Clarity:
That is not a proper way to use bail. Bail is designed to ensure the defendant’s appearance in court. It is not supposed to be punitive. What you described could be minor acts of contempt that figured into the ultimate 30 day jail term, but they have nothing to do with bail.
@Cacti: The big disadvantage of video appearances is that counsel can’t have that chance. If I were her counsel and were right next to her I would have done that or even asked the judge for a second or two to speak with my client so that I could mellow her out.
Corner Stone
@Cacti: If you were my “attorney” I would fire you and take my chances with any of the other public defenders.
You not being able to articulate an answer to my question because you’re gargling The Man’s ball sack wouldn’t inspire confidence.
Corner Stone
@shortstop: I know! Fucking A I am so happy no one here is talking about abuse of authority over powerless people!
Thank fucking God that has no context here!
You’re so on point! And trenchant as hell dude!
Cacti
@Corner Stone:
To my everlasting shame, I’ve never been arrested. Wait, nope, not ashamed of that at all.
Clarity
@Omnes Omnibus:
And the judge has great latitude in setting bail; he wasn’t required to set her bail so low in the first place, and may have decided that her attitude was indicative of a defendant who was a flight risk. That’s his call to make. We pay judges specifically to exercise such judgment. His boss will back him up on both decisions, I guarantee it.
shortstop
@Corner Stone: every single situation involving an asshole judge is identical and has matching consequences! Fuckin’ A! Have another drink and keep that indiscriminate outrage stoked! It’s always a credibility enhancer!
burnspbesq
@Ted & Hellen:
Y’all get dumber with each passing day.
shortstop
@Cacti: have you met James Gary? He hasn’t, either, but he intuitively understands the experience inside better than you do.
Omnes Omnibus
@Clarity: His boss?
And bullshit on the indications of flight risk; that was pure Grade A vindictive shit.
dance around in your bones
@Omnes Omnibus:
I understand that this is the way initial court appearances are handled in this new-fangled world of ours. I’m just saying that standing in front of a screen/talking to a video-cam judge just doesn’t carry the same gravitas that actually going to court and talking to a live judge does.
I’m sure you have far more experience in this regard than I do, since IANAL and have been to court all of 2 times in my life. BTW, both times it scared the shit out of me.
Corner Stone
@shortstop: Really. This is where you’re going to try this now?
Ok. Good enough, thanks.
Cacti
@shortstop:
I’ve never been in jail as a guest of the county. Just visiting clients.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m not familiar with FL law, but was surprised that he would order bail for a first time, non-violent offender.
Even in cracker-ass AZ, first timers are usually ROR’d.
burnspbesq
@Corner Stone:
Naw. You’re the only one around here who deserves that.
Omnes Omnibus
@dance around in your bones: I have only been involved in this kind of hearing via video a couple of times. I don’t like it because I like to have my client close by so that I can help guide the person. Like I said above, if she were my client and it were in person, I would have taken some steps to intervene. You’ll notice the the temporary defense attorney tried to cut the conversation off when he saw that the defendant was pissing off the judge.
Shortstop
@Cacti: I got it. Was joke.
Roy G.
As a longtime anti-authoritarian who eventually (mostly) grew up and out of this type of behavior, I can see both sides, but I have to say Ms. Soto is just a dumbass. She got to do her act, and the judge did what judges do, with various degrees of hand. There was no whiff of Thoreau in her behavior, it’s not even Cool Hand Luke, it’s just 21st Century Valley Girl.
To put it in the parlance of one of my mentors, ‘if you put yourself above the law, you have to be smarter than the law.’ That includes knowing when to STFU as Cacti said above.
Clarity
@Omnes Omnibus:
If you don’t think that judge has a supervising judge, then you don’t understand how courts in Florida work. There is no authority, not a supervising judge, not a court of appeals, not a judicial review board, that will vacate this judge’s authority to run his courtroom as he sees fit within the law. His decision was not arbitrary nor capricious nor unlawful in any way, and that means it will hold up, whether you like it or not. And if you think a judge should have to tolerate this kind of behavior from an ill-mannered teenager in his own courtroom, hen I am grateful that you will never be trusted in a position of responsibility.
burnspbesq
@Omnes Omnibus:
With all due respect, etc.
Given the disrespectful attitude she showed toward the proceedings, I doubt any appellate court would find the bail increase to be out of line. The judge was adding to the skin she would have in the game in case she started thinking about blowing off her next appearance.
I might disagree with it, but it doesn’t scream “abuse of discretion” to me.
Darkrose
@eemom: Apparently not. I’m kind of boggled at how fast this went pear-shaped.
Omnes Omnibus
@Clarity: I have no problem with the contempt finding. I do have a problem with the 30 days. I also have with using bail as punishment. The decision to double the bail was clearly arbitrary and I would not be surprised it it is modified. As far as the last part of your comment, I’ll just giggle over here in the corner.
Darkrose
I have yet to see anyone saying “Bitch got what she deserved.” I’m a little surprised that “Judge was an asshole, but wow, that was kind of a dumbfuck move” is so difficult to parse.
dance around in your bones
@Omnes Omnibus:
So hopefully it is more rare than what I see on TV? That’s pretty much the extent of my experience with court other than the aforementioned 2 appearances.
I also heard a lot of laughter in the background from (I presume) the accused/waiting in line to ‘talk’ to the judge side of the exchange which makes me think that Soto may have been acting for her immediate audience rather than in her own interest and/or just not grokking the reality of the situation.
Also, I notice the judge repeated the Adios to her after he whacked her upside the head with increased bail and jail time, so I think that really pissed him off.
None of this is directed at you but more of a general comment on the whole stupid thing. I imagine it goes on every single day in a thousand courtrooms all over this country.
Dacia Mitchell
@mai naem: I agree that the entire situation is unfortunate, but in your example of going to traffic court (I have been as well), you were reasonable. It’s hard in this situation because I’ve learned that you speak nice to the police and to judges because the power of the state is dangerous. I recoil at this footage because clearly this woman doesn’t understand nor care about the danger she is currently in.
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: All due respect as well…. I think we have an agree to disagree situation. I rather strongly feel that bail is too often misused and I think this judge was doing exactly that. Contempt – give her a night and she would probably learn a lot.
@dance around in your bones: I haven’t done a lot of it because I haven’t done a lot of criminal work recently. As far as the rest, I think you are right that she was posturing for her immediate audience and not thinking about her situation. And like you, I think the increased bail was punishment. Burnsie makes a case that it isn’t; I remain unconvinced.
Clarity
@Omnes Omnibus:
Bail gets modified all the time; usually it’s lowered (or changed to ROR,) sometimes it’s raised. But the judge has great latitude, and was well within his discretion on this occasion. I’ve explained that to you; I can’t understand it for you.
Now go back to giggling.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq: Rawr. Tell me more friend.
Steeplejack
@Ben Franklin:
Please adjust your snark-o-meter.
Louis
Ok I lurk not comment. My two cents as a defense lawyer (albeit in new Zealand). Courts are only ever two seconds away from chaos. Tolerating disrespect leads to an escalation of disrespect and that way lies anarchy. Every day the court I work in is full of meth heads, gang members, the mentally Ill and every other flotsam and jetsam that life has shit on. The only reason we function is that everyone knows there are cells out the back and you will get there if you cause the judge grief. It’s not pretty but it’s where the blunt instrument of state power gets used. Course that judge could’ve been a little cooler but hey… Everyone thinks they’re special I guess.
wonkie
@Clarity: I don’t think she refused to answer the question. I think she didn’t understand and didn’t know.
She was in over her head and that’s all she knew. The judge asked if she ahd a bunch of stuff she didn’t have and something she did have: jewelry. Then suddenly she’s on the spot, supposed to say what the jewelry is worth. So she’s got some costume jewelry given to her by relatives for Christmas or a a neclace from a boyfriend…she doesn’t know what it’s worth. She gets defensive and flips her hair around and can’t answer. If someone had helped her out, just clarified, she could have answered. For example if the judge had asked her, “Is your jewelry worth more than one thousand dollars, or more than five thousands dollars?” She would have known the answer to that.
She ahd xanax, for chrissake. This is not an experienced person. She’s inexperienced, defensive, and trying to hag on to her self respect.
Cassidy
I feel sorry for her. She’s young, probably an issue with substance abuse, as well as a whole truckload of guesses we could make about her home life, personal history, etc. Assumptions of course, but there is data to make educated guesses. And now, one more authority figure decided that it was easier to use a stick than a carrot. I realize that people who work in the justice business get jaded and cynical, but sometimes all a person needs is a little compassion.
Steeplejack
@Clarity:
Okay, that’s bullshit. All that behavior happened before the judge set the initial bail, so why didn’t he just set it at $10,000 in the first place? The “adiós” appeared to be the trigger.
eemom
@Darkrose:
I think it’s a case of misplaced argumentation gone awry on account of there being too few dronez threads these last two days.
Jushypothesizinzall.
General Stuck
This blog is chocked full of arrested development types, still pissed off that mommy and daddy ordered them around as children. So every symbol of authority is processed as authoritarian, with a major pout and holding of the breath. Followed by breathless accusations and finger pointing at the sheeples kowtowing to the man.
I was once that way myself, and why it is a miracle I made it though 2 years in the military without getting courts martialed for being a smart ass punk that I was. I finally grew up, at around 40 or so.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: People often want to focus on one side of things. Vaguely related point, one of the things I noticed in law school was that the people who had the most difficulty were those who had little tolerance for ambiguity – those who could not accept that the answer on the exam in evidence was “probably, but maybe not.”
Loviatar
What I find so frightening on this thread is the casual acceptance that this judge has the unfettered right to take away this young ladies freedom without a trial for the “crime” of being disrespectful. Not threatening, not disturbing, but disrespectful. WOW.
This immature young adult was at a bail hearing, this (possibly) under the influence young person was being arraigned in preparation for trial, this DISRESPECTFUL scum had not been convicted of any crime, yet she will see more jail time than Scooter Libby saw for outing Valerie Plame.
If you can’t get upset about that you’re no better than the judge.
Omnes Omnibus
@Loviatar: Okay, let’s say you are a judge: How would you deal with disruptive parties in the courtroom? People shouting, people not complying with court orders regarding discovery of evidence, and things like that?
danielx
@eemom:
Could well be the Southeastern Conference – you know, Crimson Tide and all that good shit.
As to this poor girl…she didn’t deserve any thirty days, but good god…according to an ABC article, it went like this:
No, she probably didn’t understand that in his courtroom a judge can do pretty much whatever he wants. I make no value judgment about whether that’s right or wrong, but it is fact. And there can be situations where a judge’s power to hold someone in contempt can be a good thing, at least from some perspectives…a hypothetical, and if there are any divorce attorneys present let them speak up.
Suppose (let’s say) someone is going through divorce proceedings and their soon-to-be-ex is concealing assets. That someone’s attorney can request a court order specifying that the soon-to-be-ex quit fucking around and fork over the information on those assets, on pain of being held in contempt of court. If you were that someone, you’d be applauding the judge’s power to…motivate the soon-to-be-ex, no? Situations like this happen every day in courtrooms all over the country. How a judge uses that power is a separate issue, and the power can be abused, obviously, just like cops can and do abuse their powers. However, a judge controlling behavior in his or her courtroom is a completely separate topic from the way the judicial system is used to crush people every day.
I guess my take is that there’s a time and place for public defiance (if you want to make this political), and if you’re standing in front of a judge who’s deciding on bail for a dope charge, that isn’t the time. Judge came down too hard, but this wasn’t a political violation of rights deal, this was a brat acting out. Nobody ever told her, apparently, that she could be held responsible for her behavior. She needed an attorney and didn’t have one; again another topic. However…if you want to mouth off to a judge, fine, just be prepared to accept the consequences.
If there’s a next time for her, which I devoutly hope there’s not, she’ll know better.
General Stuck
@Loviatar:
It was fairly obvious to me, that this young women has a chemical dependency, and may well have somehow gotten high before her hearing. What looks like a judge over reacting, and maybe he did, but this young woman has problems well beyond that. And sometimes, something is harsh, or appears that way, and may be exactly what the person needed to honestly face their problem, before it kills them or they end up in prison for a long while.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Have the bailiff remove them and assign appropriately measured remedies?
Society will not crumble because Miss Mumbletypants decided to be a smartass. Did she threaten a judge’s life, or his family?
Then maybe he should’ve considered exercising a little judicious judgement and just called her a smartass while he had her processed.
You think the next member of MS-13 in his courtroom is going to remember how he treated some dbag like Ms. Soto?
Loviatar
@Omnes Omnibus:
There is a huge difference in “People shouting, people not complying with court orders regarding discovery of evidence, and things like that?” and someone saying “adios”.
As you well know the two examples stated above can and should be addressed differently; the first should be treated as the criminal activity it is and the other should be treated as the childish activity that it is.
Would you jail your child for saying adios “disrespectfully” and flipping you the bird?
Corner Stone
Ok, this bloggy blog is officially fucked for the night.
I’m leaving to go watch and re-watch the extended trailer for Fast & Furious 6.
Bitches.
Loviatar
@General Stuck:
Its not fairly obvious to me thats why I said “(possibly) under the influence” in my statement. What if this young lady has a medical condition that caused her to act in the manner that she did. But thats besides the point, she could have been floating on the ceiling high and still have not warranted the jail time.
——-
I wonder how you’ll feel about this statement if she ends up getting hurt or killed in jail for her “disrespectful” actions. But I guess thats OK from your point of view because she would have gotten what she deserved for challenging authority
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: @Loviatar: As I have said several times, I think the bail doubling for the “Adios” was bullshit. I do think that the “Fuck You” and flipping the judge off was contempt of court. I would not have given the girl more than a night in the cells for it.
Loviatar, not complying with discovery is fairly common and it is not criminal. It is commonly dealt with by an order to show cause why the party should not be held in contempt and then a contempt order.
E.
I regularly practice in front of a judge who has to deal with this kind of shit all the time. He is amazingly good at shutting people up and lecturing them. He would never have had to throw that girl in jail because she never would have flipped him off in the first place, and she wouldn’t have said “adios” either, because he would have stopped her way back at the jewelry questions, given her a stern lecture and let her know she had to start answering his questions quickly and forthrightly. By the time he was done with her she would have said “Thank you your honor.”
That’s the difference between a good judge and an asshole.
Also: the fact this woman was with all her cellmates on video needs to be taken into account. She had to put on an act for them. This judge should have seen that.
Judges do have to keep control of their courtroom and this is why they have the power to send people to jail for contempt of court, but they also have a responsibility to exercise lesser means. Doubling her bond for “adios” would earn repercussions if I were her attorney.
PJ
@Loviatar: Can you not tell the difference between a judge in a court of law and irresponsible parents?
General Stuck
Oh please, she was in jail for illegal possession of Xanax. And if she wasn’t high then, she was acting the part of a self absorbed addict. I think the judge was an asshole as well, and could have handled it better. But was not out of line, imo.
She could die of an overdose on the outside. She didn’t just magically end up in jail in the first place. She was there for being a druggie, and a self absorbed jackass. It is likely a first stop on her way to hit a personal bottom that is always required for folks like her to get better. And I say that from some personal experience.
Omnes Omnibus
@General Stuck: She was stupid and silly. She did not deserve to have her bail doubled. While I think that she committed contempt of court, the judge went way overboard.
The two comments on this thread that I think best deal with the way things work in courts and the way they should work were from Louis and E.
Mnemosyne
@E.:
He probably did know that her cellmates were with her, and that’s why he cracked down on her as hard as he did. If he didn’t, he would end up with a whole line of her friends behind her who would try to top each other with how they could totally disrespect this judge and he wouldn’t do anything.
If anyone can show that this girl actually did end up having to do 30 days in jail rather than being allowed to come back at the end of the session and apologize and have the contempt citation lifted, I would like to see it.
Interestingly, this is pretty much exactly how Paris Hilton landed herself in jail for 30 days, though she left off the “flipping the bird” part.
Loviatar
@General Stuck:
This seemingly small abuse of authority is emblematic of a growing authoritarian problem within our society. Unfortunately too many Americans are becoming comfortable with this type of power being wielded by our elected elite (soon to be hereditary). Those like you who should speak up are more concerned that this young lady be taught a lesson than with the concern of what type of lesson is being taught i.e. Obey and Respect Authority or we will take away your freedom.
———
Hopefully you one day won’t have to make a similar statement:
First they came for the communists, and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.
Then they came for the socialists, and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.
SRW1
The young lady acts as stupid as a brick, but the judges goes way overboard when dealing with her.
The thing suggesting that the judge was just giving in to his authoritarian reflexes, is his behavior after he has doubled her bail. He does that for her saying ‘adios’, which he obviously finds inappropriate. But after he has increased bail to $10k, he resorts to the very same ‘adios’. If that was inappropriate from her, it was inappropriate from him.
rea
@Ted & Hellen: Seriously, “adios” is an offensive term?
The judge has a bit of an accent. I suspect he thought she was mocking him, with some reason.
raven
I had to come back to this. Did anyone listen to the the broadcast about this? TWiB gets it. All this bullshit about the judge is ridiculous.
rea
@Omnes Omnibus: That is not a proper way to use bail. Bail is designed to ensure the defendant’s appearance in court. It is not supposed to be punitive.
The fact that defendant can’t seem to bring herself to take the proceeding seriously is definitely relevant to whether she can be expeected to show up for future hearings.
raven
@rea: She sowed it, she’s reaping it.
General Stuck
test
raven
@General Stuck: I didn’t realize we had such similar backgrounds.
General Stuck
@raven:
If you are referring to being a druggie drunk wild thang with serious contempt for any and all authority, until my mid thirties, then we do.
raven
@General Stuck: The military and the hippie thing too, I guess it’s all the same.
General Stuck
@Omnes Omnibus:
I try to steer clear of court rooms, so you have more an idea of what is normal and not there. As far as the norm for these things. But she wasn’t picked up for jaywalking, and is fairly out of control. I do doubt this would have happened if she had been in the courtroom with her lawyer next to her, rather than amongst her jailhouse peers. 30 days seems like a lot for the contempt of court in this case, and I suspect her lawyer will jerk a knot in her silliness and she makes amends and doesn’t do those 30 days.
I once got thrown in jail for public drunk, when my friend was driving and we got pulled over and he failed the breath test and was going to jail. The cop was going to let me go, until my smart mouth got going, and I ended up in jail too. I was 17, and about as stupid as this girl. I didn’t bad mouth cops after that, even though I really wanted to few times. lesson learned.
raven
@General Stuck: I was 2 weeks of of the Nam and still two months before I turned 20. I was in a bar in Urbana that got raided. The cops were going to let me go when I showed them my discharge papers. I was hanging around to see if I could bail the other guys out and I said to one of the coips “I’m not under arrest, can I go the the head”? He said, “shut up boy.” That’s when I told him to go fuck himself and got my ass roughed up and busted.
General Stuck
@Loviatar:
Then they came for the idiots. And you raised your hand and asked for a lollipop
General Stuck
@raven:
That is how it works, most of the time.
jomo
If this turns the lady from the type of person who flips off a judge into the type of person who doesn’t she will be better for it.
catperson
Hi, Elon. Love the show.
Re: drones–I think the position that “I don’t want to know what’s going on because it creates cognitive dissonance” is pretty weak. Yes, there are real conflicts between the pragmatic and idealism regarding drones and the war on terror in general. Saying “I don’t want to know” is an abdication of our responsibility as citizens and the cheap way out. (As is falling back on, “but I can’t talk to them when they call Obama a babykiller!!1!1!”)
Kadzimiel
@Omnes Omnibus:
If young Ms Soto had mellowed out further I suspect we’d be looking at 30 years to life without parole.
My Truth Hurts
Why are some of you so surprised that the judge acted the way he did? It’s proper and legal. A court demands decorum and a judge is the final authority of a court. If he or she feels disrespected in any way they are fully within their rights and within the law to find someone in contempt. She clearly had no respect for the judge or his court and she got what she desreved. Like it or not agree with it or not but you can’t fight it. That’s the way it works. You don’t want to be jailed for contempt? Show proper respect and don’t be an asshole. It’s really that simple.
Loviatar
@General Stuck:
If you blow gently into it, thats a lot more effective than just licking the tip.
Clarity
The girl’s bail was reduced to ROR, by the judge, and she was released from the contempt sentence, by the judge, AFTER she apologized. Everything happened the way it was supposed to, and everyone who disagreed with this judge’s decisions was wrong.