While everyone is focusing on another bigoted organization, the Boy Scouts are trying to extract themselves from their position on homosexuality. Rather than make a decision and stick to it, they’ve decided to poll their membership:
“For instance, should the lesbian mother of a Tiger Cub be allowed to serve as den leader if the pack is chartered to a church that teaches that homosexuality is not wrong? Should a gay youth minister be allowed to serve as a Scoutmaster? Should a boy with the qualifications for Eagle Scout be denied the award if he reveals he’s gay at his board review?”
I have no idea what they think they are going to accomplish doing this, and this was not a very well thought out idea. What happens if 75% of their membership vote in favor of gay-bashing? That should be a doozy of a press release- “We thought about changing our discriminatory policies, but it turns out the majority of our members are bigots.”
That’s a real winner. And did no one at Boy Scouts do a little thought experiment to get an idea how their survey looks to non-neanderthals. Try this on for size:
“For instance, should the
lesbianBLACK mother of a Tiger Cub be allowed to serve as den leader if the pack is chartered to a church that teaches that race-mixing is not wrong? Should a BLACK youth minister be allowed to serve as a Scoutmaster? Should a boy with the qualifications for Eagle Scout be denied the award if hereveals he’s gay at his board review?BLACK?”
Had one person thought this through, they would have scrapped this idea right quick.
Mandalay
Makes a change from sticking a pole in their membership I suppose.
Maude
It’s the Boy Scout version of DADT.
srv
Teh Mormans will stack this one.
DFS
Had one person thought this through, they would have scrapped this idea right quick.
Lots of people thought this through. They were every one old white Mormon dudes, but all of ’em thought it through plenty.
jl
After clicking around, looks like the survey respondents are something called ‘Adult Scouts’, which seem to be defined as adult BSA leaders and the Scouts’ parents.
Probably would have been better to ask the kids. Would have shown the same level of leadership, and gotten more interesting information.
Schlemizel
Thats not a bug JC, it was their intent:
“All you bigots out there save us from having to act reasonably!”
They are hoping, and not unjustifiably, that they will be able to come back and say, We really wanted to change our policy but the members just won’t let us!
scav
Other news getting lost in the smoke: 4 Killed in Upstate New York Shootings
With burning house as the usual side dish!
Zifnab
No. Because that would mean we were engaging in affirmative action, and everyone knows
gaysblackspeople we disapprove of could never normally earn the distinction.Chris
Oh, to the depths with the BSA.
Zach Pruckowski
Why are Boy Scouts only talking about partially de-bigotizing? Why allow gays and not atheists?
MattF
The whole business of minority rights confuses the heck out of some people. “You mean, they’re not like us, but, somehow, just as good? Can we take a vote on that?” It’s hard, conceptually.
AHH onna Droid
@scav: Herkimer is another rust belt town, steel industry. Why are we doing this to ourselves? Some people are heartless from the start, others snap under pressure, and this country is one big pressure cooker.
Omnes Omnibus
What if the poll comes back in favor of changing the Scouts’ position? The leadership could then point to the reactionaries as being out of tune with the membership. Not everything is a cynical attempt to fuck people over and be bigoted. This might be, but it also might not.
Higgs Boson's Mate
As long as the BSA remains relevant to the right sort of people it’s relevant enough, see.
Lee Rudolph
@Zach Pruckowski: Because it’s at least possible for some
bigotsright-thinking people to get their minds around the almost-sort-of-Get-Out-of-Hellfire-Free-card of , but it takes just a tad too much Jesuitical mojo for them to think .AHH onna Droid
Ha ha@Zach Pruckowski: Who cares about non christians and heretics, not like bsa uses public resources, no church state separation issues here. Oh, wait.
Redshift
@Zach Pruckowski:
Here’s why.
Omnes Omnibus
@AHH onna Droid:
The BSA has not problem with non-Christians and heretics; they have a problem with atheists. Druids, Mithraians (sp?), Wiccans, Anabaptists, Muslims, Jews, Cathars, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, etc., are all fine. You just can’t not believe in something. I am not defending the rule, just making sure it is stated correctly.
Gex
@Omnes Omnibus: Fair point. Good point. I am, myself, very suspicious of them. Simply because the organization found itself so virulently anti-gay in the first place as a result of the LDS making a concerted effort to exert some control on the organization. If the leadership comes from that strain and feels they can rely on the LDS supported troops out in the field, they may feel like they can count on a certain answer.
I hope that’s just an overactive imagination. I will be interested to see the results.
Haydnseek
If you’re a scout, it’s probably not the best time to be a Webelo.
srv
@AHH onna Droid: Pretty sure they still make tons of Remingtons in Ilion.
So rust belt, but rust belt where Guns are still #1.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gex: I don’t think suspicion is unwarranted. But the noises from the organization seem to be that it is trying to come out of the darkness without tearing itself apart. How much slack one wants to give it as it does so is a personal thing.
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus:
Kinda the same thing as Freemasonry, isn’t it?
Boots Day
My sons’ troop had an openly gay scout reach Eagle a little while back. His sexuality was a complete non-issue, and I can’t imagine why it would have been. I would never have known the boy in question was gay if my son hadn’t told me, but it’s not like he was closeted.
Some troops are way ahead of the national leadership on this.
No One of Consequence
@Omnes Omnibus: Ironically similar to the requisites for becoming a Mason. (Indeed, you need never state your beliefs specifically, merely that you hold there is a higher power than man, despite evidence or lack thereof).
Makes me consider the founding fathers (many self-professed Deists), and the implications of perhaps an agnostic holding elective office, because our poorly-sighted nation would never elect an avowed Atheist…
Shame really.
I would rather an Impartial Empiricist make the big calls in our country, as opposed to an Imperial Empathic.
– NOoC
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: Could be. I really don’t know all that much about the Masons. Except that they run everything that the Bilderbergers and Illuminati don’t.
Todd
@Omnes Omnibus:
If you’ve got a voluntary association, it doesn’t feel like a bad idea to poll the membership on a major policy change before making a decision, and let the chips fall where they may. It’s pretty worthless as an organization, and it could easily become a mostly Mormon rump if the policy doesn’t change. After all, benefitted from free facilities from local communities all over the country, and I can see them run out all over the East, Midwest, and urban centers in the South if that policy doesn’t change.
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus:
No no, they actually run the Bilderbergers, and the Illuminati in turn run them, so really they’re all running everything. It’s all part of the same conspiracy. The apparent schisms are just another part of the conspiracy, there to fool the public.
pacem appellant
@Redshift: I wish I could plus 1 your link to Rosenberg and his comic. Atheist humor is the best.
Still though, their current ban on gays and their probably future continuing ban on atheists will keep me from enrolling my son in the BSA.
pacem appellant
@Redshift: I wish I could plus 1 your link to Rosenberg and his comic. Atheist humor is the best.
Still though, their current ban on gays and their probably future continuing ban on atheists will keep me from enrolling my son in the BSA.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris: See, that shows how little I know about them.
MikeJ
@Omnes Omnibus: The Boy Sprouts have Power 1 and Resistance 3, but only have an inward arrow (they can’t control other groups).
So glad I still have my Steve Jackson Games Illuminati game.
Villago Delenda Est
They’re not thinking, John. They’re flailing.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
Everyone has to believe in something. I believe I’ll have another beer.
Higgs Boson's Mate
Maybe they’d look better if they dropped the requirement that black scouts must address the scoutmaster as “bwana.’
Ecks
So as an atheist I can’t be a boy scout OR president of the US? Probably my fault for persecuting all those Christians, blocking them out from joining stuff.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ecks: Being an atheist does not statutorily prohibit you from being president.
Honus
@Omnes Omnibus: Good point Omnes. I have three sisters who are the mothers and wives of a combined 8 eagle scouts (and one Silver Beaver) and ardently opposed to discrimination of any kind. I suspect, that like the catholic church, the membership of the BSA is far more tolerant and in touch with reality than the leadership. Most of the den mothers and scoutmasters I know are pretty good people, who would answer those questions the right way.
AHH onna Droid
@Omnes Omnibus: Potato, potahto. An Episcopalian or Unitarian atheist is banned, but a Zen Buddhist atheist is okay. Sounds like heretics to me. And I think you will find them furrin’ religions less welcome in scouting away from the coasts.
Omnes Omnibus
@AHH onna Droid: I live in Wisconsin and I know a large number of Hmong animists and Lao Buddhists who were scouts. Also, an Episcopalian or Unitarian atheist is rather a contradiction in terms, isn’t it? Finally, you can’t just make up a definition of heretic.
NonyNony
@Omnes Omnibus:
I believe in plenty of things. Like the universe. And the ability of men and women to make the world a better place.
The Boy Scouts explicitly require that you believe in a religion – humanists need not apply. And that’s still crap even if they do start allowing gay believers to join.
The Girl Scouts, on the other hand, are an awesome organization and figured out two decades ago that this is a stupid policy to have.
Omnes Omnibus
@NonyNony: As I noted above, I wasn’t defending the policy.
Bobby Thomson
@Schlemizel: Yep.
I voted in the survey, but I’m just one vote, and I don’t expect it to turn out well. Scouting parents and leaders skew conservative. This is all about showing a fig leaf to their corporate sponsors.
TG Chicago
@Omnes Omnibus: Agreed — that’s pretty much what I got out of it. While I understand John’s distaste at the questions, they’re actually kind of slanted in the non-bigoted direction, particularly the first and third.
They didn’t ask “Should our children be protected from the influence of a homosexual scoutmaster?” or “Should a potential Eagle Scout who dishonestly hid his homosexual desires be kept out of our most honored group?”. They easily could have. But instead they asked the questions in a much more gay-friendly way.
I’m not saying they should be awarded highly for their courage, but this is a baby step in the right direction. I give them a tentative golf clap. They’ve got a ways to go, but even painfully slow movements are a good thing if they’re on the proper path.
TD
Wow, it took 44 comments for someone to pick up on what was happening here.
I’d bet a large percentage of my meager income that TG Chicago is absolutely correct.
These questions were asked with certain answer in mind, and the anticipated/desired answers are good for people who care about gay rights. Rather shrewd gambit actually.
Concerned Citizen
A couple of my kids joined the scouts. They seem hopelessly dated and homophobic, but I’m in the burbs. I’d feel alot better if they were inclusive.
thatgaljill
I actually got the survey because I
did timehad a son try out Cub Scouts last year. I told them the current policy is making hypocrites and liars out of good scouts, denying parents an opportunity to participation and contribute to their community and falsely perpetuating the idea that gays are pedophiles. And if they were concerned about pedophilia, perhaps they should revisit any policy that allows a Catholic priest to be a scout leader because that was at least the same correlation… oh, and that we wouldn’t be back.furklempt
@Omnes Omnibus:
You can absolutely be a Unitarian Athiest–all that would be required is membership in the Unitarian church and identification as Athiest. The UU church has no canon re: deities, and they welcome atheists to join and continue to be atheists.
ottercliff
Here’s one more question: Should a troop that enjoys tax-exempt status and discriminates on admissions lose said status?