It’s been four hours, which should be enough time for you fuckers up the back to have digested the previous post, so I’m going in. I’m sure there will be much erudite comment today on President Obama’s speech in Jerusalem yesterday, but I’ll get you all started with the words of the man himself for the moment.
But the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination, their right to justice must also be recognized. (Cheers, applause.) And put yourself in their shoes. Look at the world through their eyes.
It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of their own — (cheers, applause) — living their entire lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements, not just of those young people but their parents, their grandparents, every single day. It’s not just when settler violence against Palestinians goes unpunished. (Applause.) It’s not right to prevent Palestinians from farming their lands or restricting a student’s ability to move around the West Bank — (applause) — or displace Palestinian families from their homes. Neither occupation nor expulsion is the answer. (Cheers, applause.) Just as Israelis built a state in their homeland, Palestinians have a right to be a free people in their own land. (Applause.)
But I — I’m going off script here for a second, but before I — before I came here, I — I met with a — a group of young Palestinians from the age of 15 to 22. And talking to them, they weren’t that different from my daughters. They weren’t that different from your daughters or sons.
I honestly believe that if — if any Israeli parent sat down with those kids, they’d say, I want these kids to succeed. (Applause.) I want them to prosper. I want them to have opportunities just like my kids do. (Applause.) I believe that’s what Israeli parents would want for these kids if they had a chance to listen to them and talk to them. (Cheers, applause.) I believe that. (Cheers, applause.)
Now, only you can determine what kind of democracy you will have. But remember that as you make these decisions, you will define not simply the future of your relationship with the Palestinians; you will — you will define the future of Israel, as well. (Applause.) As Ariel Sharon said — I’m quoting him — “It is impossible to have a Jewish, democratic state at the same time to control all of Eretz Israel. If we insist on fulfilling the dream in its entirety, we are liable to lose it all.” (Applause.)
Or from a different perspective, I think of what the novelist David Grossman said shortly after losing his son, as he described the necessity of peace. A peace of no choice, he said, must be approached with the same determination and creativity as one approaches a war of no choice. (Applause.)
Now, Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with anyone who’s dedicated to its destruction. (Applause.) But while I know you have had differences with the Palestinian Authority, I genuinely believe that you do have a true partner in President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad. (Applause.) I believe that. And they have a track record to prove it. Over the last few years, they have built institutions and maintained security on the West Bank in ways that few could have imagined just a few years ago. So many Palestinians, including young people, have rejected violence as a means of achieving their aspirations.
There is an opportunity there. There is a window, which brings me to my third point: Peace is possible. (Cheers, applause.) It is possible. I’m not saying it’s guaranteed. I can’t even say that it is more likely than not. But it is possible.
I know it doesn’t seem that way. There are always going to be reasons to avoid risk. There are costs for failure. There will always be extremists who provide an excuse to not act. I know there must be something exhausting about endless talks about talks and daily controversies and just the grinding status quo, and I’m sure there’s a temptation just to say, ach (ph), enough; let me focus on my small corner of the world and my family and my job and what I can control.
But it’s possible. Negotiations will be necessary, but there’s little secret about where they must lead: two states for two peoples — (applause) — two states for two peoples. (Cheers, applause.)
amk
He hit it out of the park, causing much butt-hurt to the third rate american media. “Charm offensive” indeed.
The prophet Nostradumbass
I just saw that bit on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show. While he was giving that speech, broadcast live on CNN and MSNBC, Fox “News” were broadcasting something about repealing Obamacare, and an ad for a Very Special Hannity about how Obama is enabling “Israel’s Enemies”.
raven
@The prophet Nostradumbass: Lawrence was awesome, he doesn’t fuck around.
Linda Featheringill
Nice speech, Obama.
I was pleasantly surprised at the reaction from the Israelis. One would think that they don’t have political leaders that, with great affection, speak the plain truth. Is that so?
I can sympathize. We have had only a few over the years.
We’ll see if this particular speech is influential. Wouldn’t it be great if it were?
WereBear
To spring off a previous thread: most people don’t want to be assholes.
They would really prefer living calmly, in harmony with nature and their fellow folks.
It’s the paranoid, screeching, dysfunctional, my-hate-must-find-an-outlet assholes who keep this kind of thing going. I wonder if they are aging out? I wonder if both sides are getting sick and tired of it?
I hope so.
Great speech. Because he asks for them to come together in common humanity. It’s what everyone has in common!
Viva BrisVegas
But the important thing about the speech is, did Obama use a teleprompter?
raven
Holy smokes, the Mornin Joe posse is applauding Obama’s speech.
TheMightyTrowel
@Viva BrisVegas: No no no. VBV the important thing is that if you take every sixth letter (well, take the sixth, then the sixth, then the sixth, then skip one, then take the sixth etc) can you spell out “I am a secret muslim and i was born in Kenya” ?
Answer: of course!
Linda Featheringill
@WereBear: #5
It has been my unscientific observation that paranoiac types just get worse as they age. The old-man-raging-at-the-sky thing.
raven
Ah, that’s better. Joe wants to intervene in Syria.
JPL
@raven: Don’t worry.. Joe will add the word but soon enough. I didn’t watch network news last night so I have no idea if it was covered. I hope so though.
edit … comment was posted to late.
Villago Delenda Est
@Linda Featheringill:
(insert photograph of Grampy McCain here)
Villago Delenda Est
@raven:
Joe, here’s your M16 and your combat boots. Go for it, heroic defender of American values! We await SITREPs of your progress with bated breath!
Schlemizel
@WereBear:
Actually Israel is doing a fine job of creating whole new generations of assholes.
The kids growing up in those settlements built on Palestinian land will believe it is theirs and they are entitled to it. The children of Palestine that were displaced from that land will want it back. The tiny, walled off, islands of land that Israel has created will never be a second nation.
No, they have not yet grown tired of killing each other in the names of their cosmic muffins and todays assholes are ensuring future generations of asshole to carry on their ‘important fight’.
Keith G
Enthusiastically agree. And…what can we do about the Palestinians, including young people, who have/will embrace violence as a matter of course? For as long as that is, the case, the right in Israel will find their excuse.
Villago Delenda Est
@Keith G:
What do we do about Israelis who have/will embrace violence as a matter of course? And racism?
aimai
I cried through the whole thing. OK, I just found out my college roomate has breast cancer but I’m feeling that you guys are not getting how historic this is. How incredible. How timely. Obama hopes he sees in those young Israelis the same thing he sees here–a sea change, a demographic change, a weariness about fighting old men’s wars whether about gay marriage or war for territory.
WereBear
@Linda Featheringill: True but I was referring to actually AGING OUT. As in, “passing away.”
Splitting Image
Sounds like he was attempting to use the bully pulpit, so I’ll have to go with “just words”.
One thing worries me: the speech had a definite “tear down these walls” tone to it, so if it catches on, the Kenyan usurper is likely to score another notch on his belt, which means that if the obstruction-at-any-cost faction may feel the need to weigh in.
The question is whether 73% of the people wanting peace will prove to be enough.
Linda Featheringill
@WereBear:
Oh, I see. Yeah, that too.
debbie
@aimai:
I didn’t get near the news last night, so this is my first exposure to the speech. Unbelievably moving, and on the eve of Passover to boot!
This is the first time I’ve felt hopeful since before Rabin was assassinated, though I haven’t yet checked the news for what I’m sure will be cries of treason from the right.
Linda Featheringill
@aimai: #17
I read the speech but maybe I should find it and watch it, perhaps get an idea of the interaction between speaker and audience. I’ll look for it after work.
I really wouldn’t want to miss what you saw.
Punchy
Obama’s in Israel?
cmorenc
@Schlemizel:
The barriers to a solution that Obama’s speech cannot dissolve are:
1) the powerful right-wing radical Zionist faction within Israel who believe as a matter of religious principle that they have a God-given right to “greater Israel” and to settle on the lands thereof, displacing any Palestinian people or land claims in their way. The only “Palestinian state” this faction is willing to recognize is Jordan.
2) the fanatical Israel-must-be-destroyed faction (most notably Hamas) within the Palestinians, who are determined to sabotage any potentially fruitful peace initiatives with homicidally violent acts against Israeli population centers.
3) the Arab state enablers, for whom a permanently unstable, unsettled Palestinian situation is extremely helpful in deflecting and distracting unrest within their own citizenry, dissipating focus and energy that might otherwise be directed at their own government and ruling elites.
4) States whose governments are by strong inclination and geopolitical rivalry, antagonistic toward the United States (and Israel), and are not eager to see the US let off the hook for the extra international relations difficulties that accrue to our being so closely tied with Israel.
NONE of these factions are going to be moved so much as a comma’s width by Obama’s speech. There’s also the fact that a majority within Netanyahu’s own Likud party would prefer to finesse the West Bank situation indefinitely long, to permit incremental irreversible realization of “Greater Israel” via expanding settlements parcel-by-parcel. Even though there’s enough of them who probably could one-by-one, bit-by-bit be brought around to the pragmatic benefits of a permanent settlement (with the Palestinians), it’s going to be much slower than we’d like.
the lost puppy
I’m sorry, Sarah, I’m sure this is a fine post about a marginally important topic, but I’m still ruminating on John’s 15th post about the Hobbit. I need a little more time to absorb it all.
I do have my priorities, you know.
the Conster
My most favorite thing about O’s speeches including this one, and the most effective I think, is his use of the word “we”. It was something that really resonated in the election against Romney, but in this speech it was particularly important for his critics to hear.
arguingwithsignposts
Wonder what Bibi thinks about all this?
Chyron HR
@the lost puppy:
Wait, did somebody make a Zoetrope of The Hobbit? I haven’t heard of this development!
Anya
Great and a timely speech. I am so glad it was a substantial speech and not just “Isreal is our bestest friend. We will love you forever and ever.” I am so proud of my president.
This is a good take on the speech: Obama’s speech: What young Israelis not only needed but wanted to hear
arguingwithsignposts
And now I am curious what kind of hair-pulling is going on amongst the AIPAC fifth columnists, but I’m not about to go giving Jennifer Rubin or her ilk any clicks. I’ll wait for braver souls to report back to the land of the (semi-)sane.
JoyceH
What was particularly interesting was seeing how enthusiastically an Israeli audience applauded a speech that would be called ‘anti-semitic’ by many here in the US.
Won’t be too long before American neocons are lecturing those Israelis about how ‘anti-Israel’ they were to clap.
the Conster
@Anya:
There’s that word again.
JPL
@arguingwithsignposts: After the speech, The Guardian journalist checked Rubin’s twitter feed. The speech hadn’t been mentioned at that time. I presume she was waiting for the Grand wackos to tell her what to tweet. I haven’t checked myself though.
Valdivia
Someone I read yesterday–can’t remember who–said Obama was the leader the Israeli center-left has been waiting for, wish they had. Like he was channeling Rabin. It gave me chills to read that.
the Conster
@Valdivia:
Makes me VERY nervous that Obama has invoked MLK a lot on this trip, while honoring Rabin too. I’ve been visualizing him in a protective gold light while he’s over there.
Schlemizel
@cmorenc:
Yes, its not like he is the first US President to make this sort of speech. From Carter through Clinton American Presidents have tried to lead a solution & gotten nothing but nice words an then more of the same on the ground. Now that President Obama makes the same effort it would be silly to expect different results.
JPL
@Valdivia: After the speech, Obama waved and you could tell he wanted to shake hands. It appeared to me, that he asked if he could go down (to the audience) and was told no.
the lost puppy
Is there some reason Andrea Mitchell and “some” say the Obama administration has “bungled” this relationship.
Yes, the word “bungled” was used.
Welcome to cable America, where diplomacy is considered bungling
Valdivia
@the Conster: @JPL:
I have been nervous about this trip *a lot* won’t be calm until he makes it back.
I read on twitter that the stone he put on Rabin’s grave came from the MLK memorial in DC. Our POTUS is a class act.
JPL
OT.. I just read on tpm that Jerry Sandusky will be on the Today show on Monday. WTF, WTF, WTF, WTF
Baud
@the lost puppy:
The reason “I blame Obama” is a meme is that it succinctly describes the state of mind of a lot of people.
Valdivia
@JPL:
it’s the new trend obviously. The tragedy of the molester, just like the tragedy of the rapists. ugh.
Baud
@Valdivia:
Beat me to it.
mai naem
@the lost puppy: Because he hasn’t kissed enough Israeli ass and babysat the Palestinians enough. I am tired of the Israeli/Palestinian issue. I wish the Jewish Israeli’s would go to some sparsely populated American state or some other sparsely populated area in the world and just start populating it. Whatever. Anyway, the number I heard several times yesterday was that Obama has a 10 percent approval rating in Israel. I don’t actually care whether he has a high or low rating but, wow, only ten percent. Is the Israeli media that consumed by neocons? It’s not like he’s called for the destruction of Israel. Also, I would like to know what his approval rating is among Palestinians.
JPL
@Valdivia: Then he should be interviewed by Candy Crowley.
Valdivia
@Baud:
I would say great minds but I think it’s a case of the decay of our media being beyond parody now.
ETA: @JPL: indeed. I think it’s contagious though.
Valdivia
@mai naem:
I left you an answer on the sepsis thread yesterday. Thank you for asking about my toe! :)
p.a.
@Schlemizel: Sadly, this is my take also. France and Germany were at each other’s throats for generations, but it took corpses by the millions and utter destruction to break the cycle. Not the best analogy maybe, but I can’t think of a better. Ulster? Balkans? They include the religious aspect.
MomSense
@Linda Featheringill:
So worth watching. One of those great moments–he spoke to them as a true friend. And then when he went “off script” that was a beautiful moment–definitely called them to their better angels.
Suffern ACE
@Schlemizel: yep. Reading the Wikipedia article on the pollard case yesterday to refresh myself on it thanks to this blog, I was actually struck by the fact that we once had a congress that would threaten to cut off aid to Israel over spying and fucking with our investigators. Now, their leader comes to give a speech there and congressmen give standing ovations after every paragraph of a speech. There is no point in hoping that there will be anything moving on this point.
liberal
@cmorenc:
Sorry, but that’s just wrong—that’s been the policy of all major Israeli parties for decades now, not just the right-wingers.
liberal
@mai naem:
I read an article the other day, probably in the deadtree ed of the Wash Post, about Obama’s low numbers in Israel. Implicitly, it was almost as if Israelis are entitled to have a say in the matter of who we pick for president. Totally fucked up—if they don’t like who we have as president, they can give us our “aid” back.
gene108
Read the excerpt posted at the top. Why no mention of the blockade on Gaza?
The West Bank is in much better shape, with regards to Israel’s attempt to destroy Palestinians than Gaza.
the lost puppy
I hear Chuck Todd made a complete, question-hogging arse out of himself
Suffern ACE
@liberal: well to be fair, they are rightly doubly insulted that he doesn’t let them approve his secretary of defense.
Shortstop
How are you feeling today, Valdivia?
Shortstop
How are you feeling today, Valdivia?
MomSense
@aimai:
I cried too in places. I never thought I would hear an American President deliver that message. I know that he is a war President but that was the work of a genuine peace maker.
So sorry about your friend.
rikyrah
it was an excellent speech
rikyrah
Maddow and Larry O had good segments on the speech
some guy
awesome, Obama has officially adopted the Romney Plan for Middle east peace. what a surprise.
Omnes Omnibus
@some guy: What?
4tehlulz
@Omnes Omnibus: He’s mad there are no drone strikes in Tel Aviv.
some guy
@Omnes Omnibus:
some guy
usually you have to go to the WaPo editorial pages for this kind of comedy this early in the morning.
Omnes Omnibus
@some guy: And that is what you heard in this speech? I heard someone saying there is an opportunity, right now, to negotiate. Implicit in that is the suggestion that the opportunity be taken.
liberal
@some guy:
Agree.
It’s fine to argue that Obama can’t go any further “left” on the I/P issue because of the domestic politics on this issue, but the idea that he’s a genuine peace maker in this context is ludicrous.
some guy
I heard someone trying desperately to avoid highlighting the fact that he has conceded to the Israeli’s illegal land thefts, and that he has no intention to do anything concrete to get to a two-state solution.
which is fine, really, in that there will be no two-state solution, just more apartheid, more land thefts, more kidnappings of kids, more water thefts, and more beatings for those who protest apartheid. all subsidized by the US taxpayers.
it’s all good.
Omnes Omnibus
@liberal: What would a genuine peace maker sound like in this context?
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yawn. We’ve been “suggesting” things to the Israelis for decades now. The only opportunity the Israelis seem to be interested in is the slow but steady appropriation of Palestinian land.
amk
@some guy: yeah, why the kenyan muslin hasn’t brought a millennium old feud to an end, especially with the entire US congress critters kissing the ass of one feuding party?
Idjit.
liberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
“Sound like” is misdirection. Obama can utter all the nice words he wants to, and it won’t make any difference.
liberal
@amk:
Look, it’s true that there’s probably little Obama (alone) can do given the political background of the issue in the US. But you can’t have your cake and eat it too—if his agency is thus crippled, he can’t be a peacemaker.
liberal
@some guy:
Agreed.
some guy
Obama on continuing violations of international law:
Obama on completely legal and permissible activity by a different foreign country:
illegal land thefts: “let’s talk about it some more. maybe some day some vague thing might happen.”
permitted development of nuclear technology: “Sanctions for you, and maybe war too. Right the fuck now.”
some guy
shorter Obama: International Laws and the Geneva Conventions do not apply to our allies.
liberal
@some guy:
Not that it really matters, but I’ve done a minor bit of researching on teh google, and can’t find any evidence that sanctions are tantamount to an act of war. Which is strange, since one would think that an attempt to strangle a nation’s economy would be. (Though it’s pretty clear that US and/or Israel have already engaged in acts of war (murder and sabotage).)
liberal
@some guy:
Hey, fuck off—as eemom pointed out, presuming you’re an American you have no right to say that, because you benefitted from our ethnic cleansing of the Indians!!eleventy! /snark
Jennifer
@liberal: You and some guy both miss probably the most crucial point, which was Obama’s linkage of security and peace.
I’m assuming that the young Israelis he was addressing can see as clearly as the rest of us can that this thing can only end in a finite number of ways: a peaceful settlement creating two states; a continuation of the current status quo as the Palestinian population rapidly outstrips the Jewish population, until Israel’s enablers (the US) no longer have the stomach to foot the bill for apartheid and, eventually, outright genocide; or a continuation of the status quo as the Palestinian population rapidly outstrips the Jewish population, until one day the powder keg blows and the genocide gets carried out the other way.
Note that in scenarios 2 and 3, the end result is that there will no longer be an Israeli state.
He was stating a hard truth in polite terms; you shouldn’t assume that those in the audience didn’t get the underlying meaning. And yes, that is a hard truth that has remained unstated for a decade or more now, so it is a departure from at least the recent past. I can’t recall if Clinton ever stated things this baldly or not, but I don’t remember him doing so. We sure as hell haven’t heard anything like this from any Republican president regarding the issue in over a generation.
Marc
@75: Yea, we get it. You hate Obama and read a lot of irrelevant crap into anything that he says.
He delivered a strong message about the dignity of the Palestinians and the destructive consequences of the settlements. And you’re rooting around desperate to find something to attack him on.
The far left sound more and more like the republicans with every passing day.
some guy
“Until settlement stops I will veto any and all financial aid and military assistance to Israel. We will cease using our Security Council veto to protect Israel from sanctions by the international community as long as the Israeli government refuses to negotiate. I will instruct the Treasury Department to designate all financial aid to settlers and settlements as support for terrorism.”
This is not rocket science.
liberal
@some guy:
Honestly, though, AFAICT Obama is trying to avoid war with Iran, in a relative sense (ie, compared to what other American political actors would have us do). But the main strategy he seems to be using is kicking the can down the road. It will be very interesting to see how that works out.
some guy
@liberal:
yup, pretty much. asking the US to stand behind or enforce the Geneva Conventions is, as noted above, an act of Far Left idealism.
some guy
@Jennifer:
many of us no longer have the stomach to foot the bill for apartheid currently.
liberal
@Jennifer:
Nonsense. Various parties have been telling the Israelis that their actions are going to create lots of sorrow down the road. They just don’t give a shit. Full stop.
liberal
@Marc:
WTF, are you 12 years old? You’ve never heard the adage “actions speak louder than words”?
some guy
@Marc:
is that anything like a sternly worded letter?
liberal
@some guy:
{begin typical Obot rationalization} Yeah, but he can’t do anything without Congress! {/end}
some guy
@liberal:
If you don’t eat your oatmeal there will be consequences, young man. I mean it. Unlike the last 27 times I told you about how not eating your oatmeal meant there would be consequences this time I really really mean it.
HomerHK
@some guy: You know, PBO has been pretty sturdy on the issue of settlements over the course of his Presidency. He has also been pretty consistent about Iran being able legally to pursue nuclear power technology. It is NOT in fact legal (under the NPT) for Iran to develop a nuclear weapon. I have my doubts as to whether they are in fact doing that but if they are it is certainly not the same as the legal pursuit of nuclear power (which PBO has consistently said he doesn’t object to).
My personal view on seeing the speech is that it was a knockout speech using all of his oratorical power to speak to Isreali citizens rather than the politicians. The complaint I have seen by many that he offered no specifics as to how to get there is in my view somewhat irrelevant. This wasn’t the speech for that; this was a speech for inspiring and empowering Isreali citizens to do what they can to pursue peace with the Palestinians. It was an effort to make clear that, despite what Israeli politicians say, there IS a partner for peace. The nitty gritty work will be done in the future with the upcoming Kerry and Hagel visits.
Marc
@liberal:
You and your buddies here hate Israel, hate Obama, and are projecting far-left fantasies onto what he should do. Period. His words are irrelevant, his deeds are irrelevant, and the political context that he’s working in is irrelevant to you.
Different day, same crap.
Jennifer
@liberal: Please quote for us a similar statement made by George W. Bush.
liberal
@Jennifer:
Maybe it’s not within a “generation”, but Bush 41 was certainly more critical of Israel than anyone who came after him.
Maude
@JPL:
#40
This isn’t new. Serial Killers have been interviewed on tv over the years. Including Charles Manson.
some guy
@HomerHK:
So economic sanctions and active sabotage campaigns are what Iran gets for developing nuclear power technology? I wonder what illegal activities gets? Oh wait, we know the answer to that one, more buildings in Ariel, Maale adhumin, and all the hundreds of other illegal colonies.
Jennifer
@some guy: I haven’t the stomach for it either, but the political reality is that aid to Israel isn’t going to be abandoned by the US Congress, no matter how abominably the Israelis act.
liberal
@Jennifer:
I said “various parties.” There are more political agents in the world than the US president.
If you think these choices are something the Israeli polity was unaware of until Obama gave his speech, you need to get your head examined.
Chris
@some guy:
And here’s why that’ll never happen – http://www.gallup.com/poll/161387/americans-sympathies-israel-match-time-high.aspx
There are simply no votes in crossing Israel and many votes in obeying them. Same’s true in terms of money and political clout. Any president who tries to hold Israel’s feet to the fire that way will have a Congressional bill overriding him by nightfall. So he’s pretty much left with talking nice to the Israeli people and hoping enough of them grow a conscience.
And I agree that given those facts, we can’t be a peacemaker. We’re far, far too compromised at this point.
liberal
@Marc:
Because I think Israel should commit ethnic cleansing on its own dime, I “hate” it? Get a grip.
Again, you’re trying to have your cake and eat it, too. When Obama doesn’t do anything meaningful—actions, not words—in the service of justice on the I/P issue, it’s not his fault, his hands are tied, you have to consider the political context, blah blah blah. When he changes his mind about gay rights, it’s bold, it’s having good effects on the issue, the fact that he did this well after polling turned is irrelevant, blah blah blah.
liberal
@Jennifer:
OK, so anything Obama does here is irrelevant. So, again, how does that make him a peacemaker? Or are you, like Marc and five year olds the world ’round, convinced that the import of words is comparable to that of actions?
Mnemosyne
@liberal:
Links? Please note that these need to be policy statements that Bush 41 made while he was president, not as a candidate.
muddy
Obama may have just gotten out one of his speeches about the implacable divide here at home and changed the names out.
patroclus
Thanks for posting the transcript – it was an excellent speech, but I’m not particularly hopeful that it’s going to lead to anything given the polarization and intransigence of virtually everyone involved in the situation. If it does, then this speech will be looked back on as a turning point – if it doesn’t, then it will soon be forgotten. The review in Haaretz was very favorable, but that was just one article; I clicked around the rest of the site and there was plenty of criticism as well.
Jennifer
@liberal: Oh, fuck you.
YOU said “various parties.”
I said “presidents.”
Because the fact is, there’s no political risk to some asshat such as you or I weighing in on the plain truth on some blog.
So here you dispute what I plainly stated, which was that no American president has stated the case publicly so plainly in at least a generation, and when asked for an example, fall back on “various parties.” Well, smartass, “various parties” aren’t “presidents.”
For those of you who want to see Chuck Todd playing to type and making an ass of himself at the Israel presser, click here.
scav
Thing, complicated, hello. Netanyahu Apologizes To Turkish PM For Flotilla Raid Incident
What part of the world are we in?
(above-ground part, so all answers get points)
the lost puppy
@Jennifer: I didn’t see it but I heard it on the radio machine. WTF was that? He knows better, does he not? What a complete asshat.
dmbeaster
@Schlemizel:
This.
Except being older, I can also remember Secretary of State Baker making a similar speech “Secretary of State James A. Baker 3d said today that it was time for Israel to ”lay aside once and for all the unrealistic vision of a greater Israel” and ”reach out to Palestinians as neighbors who deserve political rights.””. The basic point to understand is that in response to such American rhetoric, the powers-that-be in Israel have been telling us to eff off for decades now.
@cmorenc:
Which brings me to this:
I would broaden this and not limit it to right-wing radical Zionism (though that is the most vocal expression of it), as the basic contradiction at work here goes deeper. Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing, and an official creation story that falsely claims otherwise. It is a religious state which by definition cannot find an equal place for others. The very spirit of the founding of Israel does not recognize any particular boundaries that we recognize – those famed ’67 boundaries only existed for 12 years, and are now 45 years dead. The very ethos of the place cannot find a way to turn off the awful force that created it. Add to the mix the unrelenting hostility of some Arabs about the whole thing (though the change amongst the broader Arab world has been far greater over the recent years than Israeli change), and its a problem that will never end.
Mnemosyne
@patroclus:
Unfortunately, not much will get done until a critical mass of both Israelis and Palestinians are sick of the conflict and pressure the politicians to get things done. It was massive pressure by civilians that finally got peace in Northern Ireland, not Bill Clinton’s speech or even his negotiating skills.
It can be done, but the impetus has to come from the people themselves. And, frankly, I don’t see the masses of citizens on either side pushing for that. Of course, it took 300 years to get peace in Northern Ireland, so maybe we have to wait another 250 years for people to finally get tired of constant war and occupation.
Chris
@dmbeaster:
This. All of it.
I’d caveat that it is, in fact, occasionally possible for officially religious nation-states to treat their citizens equally even if they’re not members of the dominant religion… there are still state religions in England and several Scandinavian countries. But that only works when you have a population that’s calmed the fuck down and grown the fuck up on the subject of religion. No way in hell would I ever trust Americans with that kind of arrangement, for example… and I don’t see Israel getting to that point any time in the foreseeable future, either.
patroclus
@Mnemosyne: I agree. I think Fatah and the PA (the John Hume/SDLP of this issue) are there, but neither Hamas (Sinn Fein), Likud (the DUP) nor the Israeli center (the UUP) are there or even close. And there were no Syria or Iran kind of exogenous variables in the Northern Ireland situation either.
@dmbeaster: Indeed, I remember the speech by James Addison Baker, who was then in his “historic” Secretary of State mode prior to shifting back to plain ole Jim Baker of the Clinton’s mother’s passport stealing/2000 aggressive Florida election-stealing variety. That speech did lead to Oslo, which along with Camp David (Carter and Clinton) were sort of the high water marks of American peace-making efforts in the I/P conflict. It’s good that Obama/Kerry are trying, but I’m not even very hopeful.
JustRuss
@Chris:
Sad but true. Seems like with all that oil money, a few Arab states could put together a pretty effective Palestinian lobby. They wouldn’t get the media love AIPAC does, at first anyway, but once they made a few big ad buys that might change.
liberal
@Mnemosyne:
Google, for example, this:
liberal
@Mnemosyne:
The impetus also has to come from those who enable the parties, like a certain superpower which funds Israel to the tune of several percentage points of GDP.
liberal
@dmbeaster:
Excellent comment.
liberal
@Jennifer:
So?
There’s only two ways in which Obama saying this matters.
(1) People he was addressing didn’t realize this until he said it. Clearly false, which was my point about “various actors”.
(2) People he was addressing took note that he said it, which has import because he’s a president. Why? Because presidents have power. If at the end of the day they don’t use that power—actions, not words, as I have to keep saying to all you five year olds—then the fact it’s stated by a president (as opposed to, say, some editorial in Ha’aretz or whatever) doesn’t mean much.
Furthermore, I haven’t had time to click on all the links, but the Google search I gave to Mnemosyne implies that Bush 41 actually tried to withhold aid. Which is light-years more than “all talk no action” Obama’s come up with.
liberal
@liberal:
Oh, and for anyone who says that the American Irish supported e.g. the IRA, note that “American Irish” =/= “American government.”
liberal
@JustRuss:
Like they really care. Seems like all that e.g. the Saudis care about is keeping half the population enslaved, and working to spread Wahhabist nutjob philosophy while appearing “moderate”.
liberal
@dmbeaster:
Yes, various commenters here act as if settlement of the Occupied Territories is something that the Labor Party historically had nothing to do with.
liberal
Here’s an alternative perspective on Obama/Israel versus that of past presidents. Not saying I agree with everything or can vouch with everything, but it’s definitely food for thought.
Betty Cracker
@the Conster: I’ve been worried about Mr. Obama’s safety on this trip too. I’ll be glad when he gets back to the US. Not that we don’t have legions of frothing nutbags who would like to harm him here too…
Chris
@JustRuss:
As Liberal notes, they don’t give a shit. Palestine is worth more to them as an object of outrage to rally people against and direct their attention outwards than it would be as a free country, especially since they’d probably be the ones the Palestinians started hitting up for aid rebuilding the country and all. Besides, they know better than to stick out their neck in the American political context for a third rail like this.
Partly OT, but it’s been quite something to see what a cordial and friendly relationship the Saudi royal family and their friends in the region have maintained with our oil men, the Republican Party, et al. And the amount of leeway given to them by their supporters. (Forget 9/11 happening on a Democrat’s watch – can you imagine what would’ve happened if a Democratic president had grounded airplane traffic and then chartered a special plane to get everyone with the name “Bin Laden” out of the country? The Birthers would’ve looked like a fart in a tornado compared with the angry mobs demanding impeachment and revolution that that would’ve spawned).
Chris
@liberal:
This. (And, of course, its counterparts on the other side, like the people in Riyadh and Tehran).
It’s true that there can be no lasting peace without a major push by both of the warring people, but it’s equally true that great power involvement in the region can play a huge role in making the conflict worse (think of all the conflicts in the third world that were exacerbated by American and Soviet involvement).
In this case, there’s no way in hell that the Israeli knowledge that they can count on near-unconditional American support regardless of what they do in the West Bank and who’s sitting in the White House hasn’t played a huge part in influencing their decisions, and not in a pro-peace direction.
Betty Cracker
@Chris:
Ain’t that the truth? Look how much Fox News has made of the nothingburger New Black Panther Party and imagine the field day they would’ve had with that!
Chris
@liberal:
I’ve been guilty of that too, though I know better. Consider it a somewhat clumsy attempt at recognition that not all Israelis are racist assholes and a way to indicate that our beef isn’t with every Israeli – the same reason, for example, why people say “Nazi” not “German” and “islamist,” “Salafist,” “Wahabbi” or something of that nature and not “Muslim.”
The sad truth is that the Israeli political spectrum’s attitude towards Palestinians is pretty much the same as the American political spectrum’s attitudes towards black people before Harry Truman. One party (the Democrats, the Likudniks) might’ve been worse, or at least louder on the subject, but “yeah, fuck These People” was/is a much broader consensus than that.
(For that matter, the same’s true of the American political spectrum’s attitude towards Palestinians. There’s some recognition at the presidential level that something’s got to give, at least when there’s a Democrat in the White House, which makes sense since the President’s the one most directly involved in foreign policy. But their ability to do anything productive is pretty strongly circumcised by Congress and public opinion. And not just from Republicans).
liberal
@Chris:
Thanks for the kind replies above.
While I’m extremely critical of Israel, and would rather cut off aid, it’s important to view this in terms of what’s best, not in terms of some kind of punishment for being racist or whatever. It’s not like the only racists in the world live in Israel. It’s rather a matter of our complicity in something which is an ongoing injustice, in a way that doesn’t even serve our national interests (selfishly construed).
fuckwit
This was fantastic.
It was as historic and powerful as his speech in Cairo immediately after his election.
liberal
@fuckwit:
Yet another five year old who doesn’t understand that actions speak louder than words.