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Open Thread

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Two solemn boxer dogs contemplate a post-Thatcher world:

p&d_040813

Or maybe they’re just wishing IAMS would hurry up and invent butt-flavored kibble.

Regarding Thatcher remembrances, our pal Sully credits Ms. Thatcher with rescuing Britain from a grim, monochromatic Ingsoc nightmare. My Rumproast colleague YAFB has a decidedly different take on the Iron Lady’s rule. As usual, YAFB is closer to the mark than his erstwhile countryman.

Feel free to discuss whatever.

Reader Interactions

122Comments

  2. 2.

    Anoniminous

    Annette Funicello died today as well.

    Seems the “people in my life” are moving on one after the other.

  4. 4.

    Baud

    Dems some good looking doggies.

    I posted this in the last thread, but it’s more appropriate for an open thread.

    Lousiana Governor Bobby Jindal (R) is pulling a plan to replace the income and corporate tax with a new sales tax amid an outcry from groups ranging from clergy to business lobbyists.

  5. 5.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    BOXERPUPPEHS! Thank you.

    (I am not getting out of the boat to read teh Sullihagiography).

  7. 7.

    Bulworth

    Sully has gone almost full “Fifth columnists in their coastal enclaves” anti-leftist rage.

  8. 8.

    MattF

    I suspect that a Thatcher is what we’d get if American conservatism wasn’t tied to Southern Evangelical Christianity. What we fight is bad enough, but conservatism across the pond is both less ridiculous and worse.

  9. 9.

    BGinCHI

    I love how the media hacks keep saying that Thatcher and Reagan “ended” the Cold War after mercilessly trying to continue and exploit it for everything it was worth.

    Yeah, they were both peace-loving humanitarians.

  10. 10.

    Chris

    our pal Sully credits Ms. Thatcher with rescuing Britain from a grim, monochromatic Ingsoc nightmare

    LMAO. But it was “uncivil” when some liberal drew Bush with a Hitler mustache. And so traumatic, in fact, that it’s still a sore point they routinely bring up a decade later.

    At least Bush had a Room 101 I can point to. What was the Labour Party’s version?

  11. 11.

    Hungry Joe

    San Diego-area sci-fi / lit fans: On Wednesday I’m moderating a panel featuring Vernor Vinge, Stephen Potts, and Charles Harrington Elster. Topic: Ray Bradbury and “Fahrenheit 451.” Wednesday 4/10, 6:30pm, Mission Valley Library, 2123 Fenton Parkway (next to Ikea).

  15. 15.

    Chris

    @MattF:

    I asked about that a few threads back but didn’t see an answer so reposting it here; did Thatcher’s conservatism have any strong cultural/identity component like Reagan’s did? Any equivalents to the Southern Strategy and the religious right blaming racial minorities and loose morals for the decline of society? Or was it just economics all around?

    @BGinCHI:

    It’s laughable enough when they do it for Reagan, but with Thatcher it’s not even funny. What the fuck did she have to do with it? At least our Republicans can point to Reagan’s massive arms buildup to justify their “he bankrupted them” fantasy, even if it is a fantasy – what can anyone come up with for Thatcher that’s similar?

  17. 17.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Bulworth: Was he bullied by some “leftist” as a child or something? That screed makes no sense to me.
    From Sully’s Thatcher obituary.

    Yes: the British left would prefer to keep everyone poorer if it meant preventing a few getting richer. And the massively powerful trade union movement worked every day to ensure that mediocrity was protected, individual achievement erased, and that all decisions were made collectively, i.e. with their veto.

  18. 18.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @BGinCHI: as Charlie Pierce pointed out, Thatcher re-invented the Splendid Little War to give gov’ts a little jingoistic poll boost, from the Falklands to Grenada to Panama, right up to Iraq.

    @Anoniminous: THe Huffington Post announced it with the headline “Former Mouseketeer Dies”. I would’ve thought she was more famous for the beach movies, but then I know those mostly through the SNL sketch with Carrie Fisher. Gilda Radner: “This is Frankie, I’m Annette, and these are my breasts”.

  20. 20.

    Davis X. Machina

    did Thatcher’s conservatism have any strong cultural/identity component like Reagan’s did?

    Xenophobia of all stripes — Argie-bashing, Europhobia, a generalized animosity towards South Asians, for starters — and a belief that north of a line drawn from Bristol to the Wash you really weren’t in England, not really.

  21. 21.

    Chris

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Nah, this is absolutely standard right-wing projection/I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I? rhetoric.

    “Well, of course, everyone wants to help the poor, but the only way to help the poor is to stop helping them so they can learn hardworking values and to help the rich so they can give them money. It’s never not worked. Honest. And the only people who can’t see that are leftists and they’re only like that because they’re jealous of the wealth of rich people and the success of right wing politics.”

  23. 23.

    BGinCHI

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: And then she tut-tutted Reagan over Grenada and he invaded anyway. I guess she well understood the neo-con philosophy of picking on someone less than your own size.

    Anyone who wants to read a great coming-of-age novel set in Thatcherite Britain should pick up David Mitchell’s Black Swan Green.

  24. 24.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Chris:

    I asked about that a few threads back but didn’t see an answer so reposting it here; did Thatcher’s conservatism have any strong cultural/identity component like Reagan’s did?

    IIRC, her anti-Unionism had strong ties with British anti-labor ideology going back to when Britannia Ruled the Waves, so there was a imperial nostalgia component to it, as if the change in England’s economic fortunes since 1890 had nothing at all to do with the human and economic tolls taken by two world wars, the rise of the US and Soviet Union as superpowers, etc., and instead it was all the fault of the lazy, shiftless working class and the NHS, and everything would be good again if we just applied the lash to strong backs like we used to do back in the good old days.

  26. 26.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Chris: High Toryism is always and everywhere moralistic. Too much money pissed away on beer, whippets, and pool tickets by the lower classes. Lack of moral tone, etc.

    The Thatcherite cheerleading for barrow-boy billionaires and City spivs was something of a novelty — that was different.

    The stately homes of England may have been built on the proceeds of speculation, sugar, and outright theft, but one didn’t adveritise the fact.

  28. 28.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Chris: FWIW and from what I remember from living in London for a time in ’84, I think that Thatcherism was largely lower middle class conservatism with all that implies. No concept of noblesse oblige (if the poor are poor, fuck ’em), no interest in arts or education as a goal in and of themselves, no sense of a common good. Unpleasant bunch of tossers, if you ask me. She couldn’t stand the old upper class Tories and despised on Labour (from whatever class).

    As far as the Cold War goes, Thatcher did support Solidarity in Poland.

    Edited.

  30. 30.

    Jay C

    Jeez, but that was a reeking (tons-weight) crock-o-crap, even by Excitable Andy’s (low) standards. Somehow, despite all its problems (and there WERE plenty), 1970s Britain was far from the Orwellian dystopia he seems to want to invoke: and of course, the post-Thatcher UK was scarcely a paradise…
    And that “won the Cold War” garbage? Gimme a break!

    He did make one (albeit just one) cogent observation, though:

    A

    nd that was why she ultimately failed, as every politician always ultimately does. She wanted to return Britain to the tradition of her thrifty, traditional father; instead she turned it into a country for the likes of her son, a wayward, money-making opportunist.

    But then, right back to the hagiography. Hack.

    I have noticed, though that while most of the UK-based commentary I have read on Mrs. Thatcher’s passing has been reasonably even-handed, the US-based media have been, AFAICT, uniformly adulatory to the point of Sullivan-level bogosity. Ain’t that “mainstream” media grand….?

  32. 32.

    BGinCHI

    @Jay C: I’m guessing the Guardian has it just right but haven’t had time to get over there and read.

    The US media doesn’t do history. Melodrama really can’t handle the complexity.

  33. 33.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Jay C: Jonathan Alter, who I think can be called one of the more liberal members of the Beltway tribe (as opposed to the Reasonable and Serious likes of Joe Klein), just gave her and Ronnie credit for ending the Cold War.

  34. 34.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Jay C:

    while most of the UK-based commentary I have read on Mrs. Thatcher’s passing has been reasonably even-handed, the US-based media have been, AFAICT, uniformly adulatory to the point of Sullivan-level bogosity.

    In the US mainstream press at least, Reagan and Thatcher are joined at the hip. They know better than to be tugging at any of the loose threads dangling from that particular sweater, lest the entire garment start unravelling. And we can’t be having that then now, can we?

  35. 35.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Speaking of seriously stupid broads, anyone else recall that when Argentina invaded the Falklands, Jeanne Kirkpatrick actually suggested that the US back the Argentines, not the Brits?

    Fun times as these two vile fascist iron bints were at something of loggerheads. Jeanne loved her right wing dictators, with her subtle distinction between “authoritarian” and “totalitarian” regimes.

    Someone tortured by either can’t really tell the difference.

  36. 36.

    Anoniminous

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    After Annette exposed her boobs and navel, for all the world to see*, in those movies the sexual norms and mores of the US rapidly declined. Proof: 48 years later, we have gay marriage.

    She a Cultural Reference of a different time, from that time.

    * No one thought of the children

  37. 37.

    eemom

    My neighbor has a Boxer puppy that looks just like those doggies. I was over in their yard playing with him yesterday, much to the barked disapproval of my own 2.

  38. 38.

    Chris

    @Davis X. Machina:

    The general xenophobia and British nationalism, I figured. I didn’t realize hostility towards those other parts of the U.K. was still a thing, though – to this day? Thanks for the education…

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yeah, the lower middle class seems the place where right wing populism always starts. People who’re just rich enough that they feel they have a lot to lose from reforms, but not rich enough to actually have any significant voice in the system, and are ripe for resentment of the poor (“union thugs”) and rich (“liberal elites”) alike.

  40. 40.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The cold war ended despite the efforts of Reagan and Thatcher. If anything, they prolonged the Soviet Union’s collapse by giving the militants a plausible adversary.

  42. 42.

    Hungry Joe

    @BGinCHI:

    Anyone who wants to read a great coming-of-age novel set in Thatcherite Britain should pick up David Mitchell’s Black Swan Green.

    I second the motion. Hilarious, touching, brilliant. Not a tour de force like “Cloud Atlas” — but what is?

    There’s a wonderful passage in “Black Swan Green” in which the young narrator — he’s about 13 — explains the protocol involved in going to a dance: “Most of the boys’d drifted to one side, too cool to dance. Most of the girls’d drifted to the other, too cool to dance too. Discos’re tricky. You look like a total wally if you dance too early, but after one crucial song tips the disco over, you look like a sad saddo if you don’t.”

  43. 43.

    Calouste

    @Roger Moore:

    I lived close to Brixton for half a year in the early 00’s…

    And Brixton had actually somewhat recovered at that point, not like some other parts of South London like Camberwell and Peckham.

  44. 44.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Chris: Exactly. Not to go full Godwin, but that’s where you know who got his support. Poujade, too. Tea people. The money and the PTB will back them, thinking they can control them when push comes to shove, but it doesn’t always happen.

  45. 45.

    BGinCHI

    @Hungry Joe: Perfect.

    That is such a bittersweet novel. Makes a great follow-up after Roddy Doyle’s devastating Paddy Clarke ha ha ha.

    I also love Mitchell’s takedown of the fake proprieties of British middle-class ways and means.

  49. 49.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Villago Delenda Est: and for some, it ain’t over:

    Their trip prompted Reps. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL) and Mario Diaz-Balart (R-FL), both of whom represent large Cuban-American populations in Florida, to write a joint letter Friday to the Treasury Department, which oversees the travel restrictions on Cuba, demanding “information regarding the type of license that Beyonce and Jay-Z received, for what purpose, and who approved such travel.”

    I guess Beyoncé will now be Little Havanese for “Benghazi”. Is there some local version of Rush Limbaugh for octogenarian Castro obsessives?

  51. 51.

    schrodinger's cat

    Betty Crackers dogs look so serious

    We are serious dogs, this is a serious blog.

  52. 52.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Calouste: In ’84, Brixton was quite scary to this middle class white boy. One went there for hash (not that I would partake, of course) and reggae/ska.

  53. 53.

    Michele C

    @Davis X. Machina: To me the hallmark of her belief system was a true disdain for those who didn’t “succeed” by her measure, that they were just layabouts who wanted handouts from the government, which just repeats what you said about “too much money pissed away on beer, whippets, etc.” She said that she wanted to return to “Victorian morals,” which to me could never be good. Oh, and to add to the list of people to hate — the Irish.

  54. 54.

    Calouste

    @Chris:

    The Tories are the “English” party. Out of the 55 MPs that Scotland sends to Westminster, there is 1 (one) Tory. They do slightly, but not much, better than that in Wales. (Northern Ireland has its own parties, separate from those on the mainland.)

  55. 55.

    schrodinger's cat

    I don’t get all the regional differences in the UK. It is such a small country in size, how different can the different regions be? Is it important to be English to get ahead? Has the UK had any Scot or Welsh or Irish Prime Ministers?

  56. 56.

    Suffern ACE

    @Jay C: It’s those wayward sons that always get yah…makes the whole conservative enterprise seem like its concern is about restoring an aristocracy and nobility and keeping the riff raff away for a few generations over anything else. But – death taxes!

  59. 59.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @schrodinger’s cat: Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are both from Scotland.

    ETA: Wellington was born in Ireland but bridled at being called Irish. He made a comment along the lines of Jesus being born in a barn but not being a horse.

  60. 60.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @eemom: My thought precisely. I often suspect she and Winebox Ann are secret lesbian lovers, and I wish they’d just come out already. For everyone’s sake.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @schrodinger’s cat: The differences in accent are remarkable, too, and I think still strong even among the youth. We pretty much all sound like TV anchors.

    Lloyd George, wiki tells me, grew up speaking Welsh.

  67. 67.

    Amir Khalid

    I believe the obligation to contemplate Margaret Thatcher’s passing has been amply met by now. Isn’t it time for a thread to commemorate Annette Funicello, who did more than her bit to make the world a cheerful place?

  71. 71.

    Hill Dweller

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Jonathan Alter, who I think can be called one of the more liberal members of the Beltway tribe (as opposed to the Reasonable and Serious likes of Joe Klein), just gave her and Ronnie credit for ending the Cold War.

    Alter, like the rest of the Village, is a careerist.

    Even “liberal” journalists/pundits will jump on anything to prove their “objectivity”. The absurd overreaction, which continues, to Obama calling Kamala Harris attractive is a good example.

  73. 73.

    Amir Khalid

    @jl:
    I have a lot of trouble buying this story. A course of steroids and a trip to the hairdresser? That wouldn’t make up for the most basic and obvious difference: dogs bark, ferrets don’t.

  74. 74.

    Trollhattan

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Speaking of the Benghazi-fluffers, where’s the outrage over Anne Smedinghoff’s death in Afghanistan? Are some State Department employees less important than others? Was she not young, smart or idealistic enough for them? (From what I read, she was all three in copious amounts.)

    When will Michele Bachmann start the inquiry? She needs fresh hallway talkingblocking points?

  76. 76.

    Roger Moore

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I don’t get all the regional differences in the UK. It is such a small country in size, how different can the different regions be?

    Very. The English conquered the Welsh and were constantly trying to take over Scotland, and there’s still a huge amount of resentment. Hell, they don’t even speak the same language, or even languages from the same linguistic group (English and Scots are Germanic, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic are Celtic).

  78. 78.

    maya

    On the sofa sits two boxers but no fighters by their trade,
    and they leave short hair reminders
    on every bedspread and rug they lay down on
    till you cry out in your Hoover-holding anger and your shame
    Company is coming. Get off, get out. Yet the boxers still remain.

  79. 79.

    Suffern ACE

    @Roger Moore: Yes, but I don’t think it will go well for them. For some reason I can’t put my finger on, the right might have it in for Beyonce. Bow down bitches!

  82. 82.

    Suffern ACE

    @Amir Khalid: I am going to guess that this was more “deception” than “lying.” If the guy thought they were puppies, then who is the seller to alert him of that auspicious mistake?

  83. 83.

    Spaghetti Lee

    I didn’t live through Thatcher, and I’m not even English, but I’m still kind of happy. I guess seeing so much spontaneous celebration of her finally being gone has got me in a feisty populist mood.

    From what I can tell, she was worse for Britain than Reagan was for America.

  84. 84.

    BGinCHI

    Somehow ferrets disguised as poodles, Andrew Sullivan, and Margaret Thatcher seem like subjects that complement one another.

  86. 86.

    PeakVT

    @jl: Brown was raised entirely in Scotland, but Blair lived for a time in Oz and in England as a child.

  87. 87.

    Spaghetti Lee

    Read something interesting: Thatcher never won more than 55% of the vote as an MP, even when she was Prime Minister. Labour was always relatively competitive in her district. Couldn’t they have gotten their shit together and got her out, or do I not know the whole story?

  88. 88.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I see on Tweety, and elsewhere, that McCain is getting some of his old style media love for talking about how he doesn’t “understand” the threatened filibuster of background checks. No mention, of course, that McCain and all of Obama’s other dinner guests filibustered Caitlin Halligan on orders from the NRA.

  91. 91.

    Chris

    @Trollhattan:

    Speaking of the Benghazi-fluffers, where’s the outrage over Anne Smedinghoff’s death in Afghanistan?

    I would guess because there isn’t an election on anymore.

  92. 92.

    mclaren

    Somebody needs to pound a stake into Thatcher’s heart and cut off her head and bury it at a crossroads, just to make sure.

    You really seriously don’t want something that evil rising from the grave…

  93. 93.

    gelfling545

    @Calouste: Well, that’s how my great uncles (of Irish ancestry) observed anybody’s death. Well not the milk so much but beer or a drop of the creature & music and Auntie Kate yelling at them to be puttin the bottle away as the priest’s coming to say the rosary. Ah, memories.

  96. 96.

    Davis X. Machina

    @schrodinger’s cat: Regional differences are quite strong — check out London-area football teams’ bulletin boards about away games oop north, or into wildest Lancashire…or going in the other direction, various Yorkshire-based teams’ fans talking about their forays into the gay, gay, purlieus of Brighton.

    Even the wildest sorts of Dixie-bashing you get on here sometimes isn’t a patch in it. And the distances are only a few hundred miles….

  97. 97.

    Amir Khalid

    @Suffern ACE:
    As in, the seller who’d dosed the ferrets with steroids and groomed them to resemble toy poodles? Y’know, I don’t even understand how the seller was going to profit from this scam, if a scam it was. The steroids would surely have cost more than the price difference between a pet ferret and a toy poodle. And even the Charles Atlas of ferrets could never look like any kind of dog.

  99. 99.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Spaghetti Lee: In the stockbroker belt, the anti-Thatcher vote would have been evenly split between Labour and whatever the SDP was calling itself in those days.

  101. 101.

    Jay C

    @MattF:

    In Britain, right now, they’re seeing the reality of Tory economic policy, and it ain’t pretty.

    Kinda like we are, here, too?

    A thought which occurred to me while I was walking across the street a few minutes ago (yes, I actually do spend some little time away from Balloon Juice!) – the main difference between Thatcher and Reagan is that Maggie inherited a fundamentally ailing economy, and (tremendous human costs notwithstanding), left her country (eventually) with a healthier one. Reagan, though? inherited a fundamentally health economy, and (tremendous human costs notwithstanding) left his country with an economy in much poorer shape. Which structural problem we’re still dealing with….

    BTW, the “tremendous human costs notwithstanding” is the common factor, of course: they were both conservatives, after all…..

  102. 102.

    Xecky Gilchrist

    @rda909: I just found out a coworker of mine was a small child kissed by Maggie Thatcher during her campaign days. Maybe she’s the one in the song!

  103. 103.

    Amir Khalid

    @Schlemizel:
    I looked over a few of the other headlines:

    — Supreme Court May Limit Gay Marriage to ‘Attractive Lesbians’

    — Ahmadinejad Blames Jews For Erectile Dysfunction

    — Obama: France Has ‘Hottest’ First Lady

    Spoof site.

  104. 104.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Schlemizel: I think the Currant is a wannabe Onion:

    Sen. Lindsey Graham Endorses Gay Marriage
    Pope Benedict Comes Out as Gay
    Egypt Issues Arrest Warrant For Jon Stewart
    Paul Krugman Declares Personal Bankruptcy
    Michele Bachmann Accidentally Embarks on Gay Cruise
    Paul Ryan Thrown Out of Easter Mass For Views On Poverty
    Ann Coulter Refuses to Board Airplane With Black Pilot
    Jamie Dimon Resigns From JP Morgan, Says ‘Put Bankers in Jail’

  105. 105.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @p.a.: Didn’t realize that was about Thatcher. Interesting. RT has a new album out and is finally getting some serious media love for it. Or maybe I’m just more cognizant of it these days.
    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    We pretty much all sound like TV anchors.

    You’ve clearly never been in the deep south.

  106. 106.

    bemused

    Tina Brown seemed to be of similar mind as Sully on Andrea Mitchell show today. Brown said Thatcher saved Britain from all the chaos that continual strikes were causing.

  108. 108.

    Chris

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yep. And, like I mentioned this morning, Goldwater’s insurgency too. Middle class people running small and medium sized businesses was where the resentment was at.

  109. 109.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Chris: IOW, Poujadisme. The Tea Party is rife with it. One of the distinguishing features of state-legislature Republicans, as opposed to DC-legislature Republicans.

  110. 110.

    Anne Laurie

    @jl: Forty years ago (pre-ferret-pet-popularity) the urban legend involved tourists bringing back a “chihuahua” from exotic Mexico that turns out to be a large rat. Sometimes a rabid rat, for that extra “never trust the natives at your third-world tourist destination” frisson…

  113. 113.

    Bill Arnold

    @jl:
    The article has a helpful guide on distinguishing between ferrets and toy poodles. The Weasel War Dance looks fun.

  114. 114.

    greenergood

    @Jay C: “Maggie inherited a fundamentally ailing economy, and (tremendous human costs notwithstanding), left her country (eventually) with a healthier one.” – oh no she didn’t. Economy was ailing, but needed negotation and a dialogue, yes, dialogue, with the unions; but this was antithetical to Conservative ideology, who saw any communications with unions as communist/socialist/bad thing. So no dialogue, sack thousands, destroy an historically strong industrial base, put thousands on unemployment/welfare, decimate small towns and communities, and then finally demonise anyone who needs help from the government as a welfare scrounger. If I were a believer, I would take comfort in thinking that Reagan and Thatcher are in the same crib in Hell. We started down the neoliberal ski-slope thanks to Mrs Thatcher – that is her legacy.

  115. 115.

    Trollhattan

    @Schlemizel:

    President, rating other nations’ first ladies:

    “I haven’t met all of (South African President) Jacob Zuma’s wives yet, but one of them has got to be hot.”

    Note to self: read more Daily Current.

  118. 118.

    corina

    Sully is so full of it sometimes. Is it embarrassing to admit I thought ole Maggie died years ago?

    On a happy note, Estelle, one of the dogs on PetConnect.Us has been saved from Death Row and adopted! https://www.facebook.com/PetConnect.Us#!/photo.php?fbid=10150359773719977&set=a.71470379976.18363.71459069976&type=1&theater

    Unfortunately no such luck still for this poor sad pup!Don’t know if he’s still alive, but he remains on the shelter list. PLEASE share!
    https://www.facebook.com/PetConnect.Us#!/photo.php?fbid=10150360223784977&set=a.71470379976.18363.71459069976&type=1&theater

    I don’t even know if bringing this here is appropriate for this forum, but these condemned pets just break my heart, and there are so many compassionate animal lovers here…

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