Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

Never forget that he train is barreling down on Trump, even as he dances on the tracks.

The frogs are rarely mistaken.

Bogus polls are all they’ve got left. Let’s bury these fuckers at the polls a year from now.

FFS people, this was a good thing. take the win.

How any woman could possibly vote for this smug smarmy piece of misogynistic crap is beyond understanding.

Let’s finish the job.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

Live so that if you miss a day of work people aren’t hoping you’re dead.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Found liable for massive fraud, is required to post a massive bond, gets a break, then files a *fraudulent* bond!

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

Republican also-rans: four mules fighting over a turnip.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

“And when the Committee says to “report your income,” that could mean anything!

Pelosi: “He either is stupid, or he thinks the rest of us are.” Why not both?

You are here: Home / We are all totebaggers now

We are all totebaggers now

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Appearing on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe,” Carville said he thinks Obama relishes the commendation he’s received from deficit hawks like New York Times columnist David Brooks and host Joe Scarborough. Asked by co-host Mike Barnicle how the President will respond to the outrage from the left-wing of the Democratic Party, Carville was blunt.

“I think he likes that,” Carville said. “I don’t think he’s upset. He got a very favorable Washington Post editorial. ‘Morning Joe,’ very favorable commentary right here. I guarantee you if he’s up watching this right now. Got a good David Brooks column. He’s kind of excited this morning. This is kind of important to him.”

Reader Interactions

539Comments

  1. 1.

    Cassidy

    And this is the kid of ratfucker HIllary wants heading her team….and the same kind of ratfucker that will lose the POTUS for us to the Republcians.

  2. 2.

    aimai

    Holy shit that asshole should be fired from whatever peripheral democrat related job he still has. What a ratfucker. Or, if its true, Obama needs to have his head examined.

  3. 3.

    Ben Franklin

    Mebbe he likes it because it tamps down the fiction that he’s a socialist. Or maybe he just likes fucking with his former base. His new base is very happy with what he’s doing.

  4. 4.

    Cacti

    Carville will always be bitter that Obama got the best of the previously unbeatable Clinton machine.

  5. 5.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    If Obama was all that thankful for the feedback from the deficit hawks, he wouldn’t have Carny and Axelrod out doing damage control. I think he believes that something has to be done about SS, and Chained-CPI, something proposed by Republicans before, would be something that could pass.

  6. 6.

    mike with a mic

    I’m not shocked at all. This is not the New Deal Democratic party anymore, it’s the New Democratic party. Some of the change progressives like, no more Jim Crow, more socially egalitarian, but as our social values changed so did our economic ones. And New Deal economic style programs are just as dead and gone as Jim Crow is now for the Democratic party. We are the party of upper class professionals in major urban centers. You can’t be the party of DC, NYC, San Fran, Silicon Valley and still be the New Deal party, it just won’t work.

    Besides, Obama talked about slashing entitlements in 2006 and we nominated him! Then voted for him in 2008, didn’t primary him in 2012, and voted for him again. So we are getting exactly what was sold to us and exactly what we voted for, donated for, and worked for.

    Hence I don’t get all the griping about him slashing social security? So fucking what? Democrats represent Wall Street and the outsourcing tech giants. We represent the richest districts in the US and post graduates. We knew he would do this and we voted for him anyways. So… some fucks in fly over country will eat cat food. Why do we fucking care? We aren’t that party anymore.

    I applaud chained CPI!!

  8. 8.

    Nina

    Carville has had that political consulting scam going for decades now, he’ll keep saying whatever he needs to stay employed. I lost a ton of respect for him when I saw how he reacted to Jon Stewart.

  10. 10.

    Cacti

    @Ben Franklin:

    LAT’s tepidly addresses the charges against Manning. It’s a message Obama is unlikely to read or heed.

    Ooo, A Bradley Manning story. Could you tell us about Dr0nez too? And maybe a bit about the public option to wrap it up?

  12. 12.

    Marc

    Didn’t his 15 minutes of fame expire a couple of decades ago? Has this man been right about anything in the 21st century?

    We may disagree about many things here at BJ, but I’d hope that we could be united in our opinion of Carville. It’s sort of the equivalent of asking whether Althouse or Dick Morris represents what we think…

  14. 14.

    dmbeaster

    Sounds like Carville is just talking out of his ass (and hurting the Dem brand in the process), but it also seems we are seeing a repeat of Obama 2009-1010 in which his sense of bipartisan cred was his number one priority. Its the same feckless political leadership that had so much to do with losing in 2010. More of this, and we are going to see a repeat in 2014.

    The political idiocy is unbelievable from someone who is otherwise so savvy during the election season.

  16. 16.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Carville was blunt.

    When I saw the way this was written, assuming the vile Mr Matalin has some special insight into Obama, and that he was speaking an uncontestable truth, I assumed it was a Politico story. O, Josh Marshall, you do like to remind me of the days when you supported the Iraq War and couldn’t quite bring yourself to oppose Lieberman’s re-election. As others have said, bitter old overrated PUMA hack is bitter, etc. I laughed and laughed when he got shitcanned by CNN. Then he started popping up on MSNBC, which of late has made “liberal hawk” Michael O’Hanlon a regular guest. I guess they’re shoring up their Clinton creds in anticipation of the Hillgernaut

  17. 17.

    Cacti

    @mike with a mic:

    This is not the New Deal Democratic party anymore

    The New Deal coalition fractured in 1964 and never came back together again. It’s long gone and not coming back.

  18. 18.

    Loviatar

    @mike with a mic:

    Also,

    notice how the Obots immediately and ferociously attack the messenger and have nothing to say about the message.

    Obama loves craves the adulation of the “Very Serious People” even to the detriment of his party and our country.

  19. 19.

    askew

    Carville doesn’t know anything about Obama or his thinking. Obama hasn’t let any of Clintons’s troll into his inner circle. The closest was Rahm and he is long gone.

  20. 20.

    Cacti

    @Cassidy:

    There we go.

    Blue fairy promised him that if he’d stop being an arsehole, one day she’d turn him into a real boy.

  21. 21.

    Ben Franklin

    @Cassidy:

    Aren’t you going to thank me for the diversion? Cuz I and others would really like to hear your incisive, prosaic justification for anything Obama.

  23. 23.

    Cassidy

    @Loviatar: Because the message is 10 gallons of wet shit being poured into shot glass. This isn’t a debate:

    “Is Obama the reincarnation of Hitler or the reincarnation of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao’s love child? Discuss.”

    That’s how you idiots frame things and we’re not interested in playing that level of stupid. If you want to conduct yourself as a simpleton, that’s fine, but you might be happier elsewhere.

  27. 27.

    Cassidy

    @Ben Franklin:

    Aren’t you going to thank me for the diversion?

    Look if you want to wank away to your ODS and jizz all over your computer that’s fine, but no one here is going to thank you for it. You should probably get a towel and clean that up, btw.

  28. 28.

    Chyron HR

    @Ben Franklin:

    Speaking of justifications, how do you explain away Elizabeth Warren’s vote in favor of the alleged “Monsanto Protection Act”? Or do you not worry your beautiful mind about such things?

  30. 30.

    jamick6000

    ugh, speaking of bring on the meteor here’s something:

    President Obama met at the White House Thursday morning with a group of top Wall Street chief executives as part of the administration’s efforts to forge better relations with the industry and enlist them in efforts to sell his fiscal proposals.
    …
    The closed-door meeting was “part of our ongoing engagement with the financial sector and the business community,”
    White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters Thursday afternoon.
    …
    But the Thursday meeting was expected by participants to focus more on the president’s efforts, most recently through his budget proposal, to reach a “grand bargain” on deficit reduction to take the threat of fiscal crisis off the back of the economy.

    rallying his base

  32. 32.

    ruemara

    The Pink Skull needs to go home and conspire with the evil hag that’s his wife. This is nothing more than moderate to rightwing Dem pundits playing to the left for their own gain. There’s nothing to be lost in attacking Obama. Too many on the left are about as smart as your average Fox viewer. Based on the losing streak, I don’t think you’re going to see much of Carville on Hillary’s team-if she runs.

  34. 34.

    dmbeaster

    @Loviatar:

    Why does he have to be white before he can call himself an Eisenhower Republican?

    Also, he could just as well call himself an Earl Warren Republican — amazing how many people forget that the Republican district attorney from Santa Barbara, California ended up being the head of the alleged radically liberal Supreme Court. The point is that there is not anything wrong with being that brand of Republican, which as you rightly point out, would be DOA in today’s party.

    Obama has always made it clear that he was a middle of the road centrist despite his rhetoric — I personally supported more liberal candidates in 2008 until he wrapped it up. But the one promise that he seems most committed to keeping is to change the dialogue in Washington, even if it means undercutting his own party. That is an inexcusable error, particularly when the opposition will never respond favorably to anything he proposes as a compromise. His weak leadership was a major factor in the 2010 melt-down, and he is repeating the same behavior again.

  35. 35.

    Hoodie

    @aimai: Not sure what the ratfucking here is except maybe ratfucking the Morning Ho crowd. Do you seriously think Obama feels that way? Carville probably checked out the tags for this blog to pick the right totems (Wash Post, David Brooks, Morning Ho).

  36. 36.

    Ben Franklin

    @Cassidy:

    Hey, I just gave you what you would interpret as a compliment. It’s up to you to clean it up if somehow, somewhere you let some of that bargle escape that trenchmouth of yours.

  37. 37.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Ben Franklin:
    I am very happy with what Obama is doing, yes.

    @mike with a mic:
    Yes, the man who’s overseen the biggest expansion of the safety net in decades is just ACHING to gut it. This time he’s sure to do it, not like all those times before when he had better opportunities!

    Obama is not a ‘Republican’ by any definition within the forty years of my lifetime. He is not a Republican by any standard remotely relevant to current discussions. I doubt he’s a Republican by standards before that, but I honestly don’t care. If you have to say ‘He’s like Republicans were back when Republicans were totally different’ you have no argument.

  38. 38.

    mike with a mic

    @Loviatar:

    What detrement to our party? We are the party of post graduate degrees, the richest and most unequal urban centers, and social liberalism. It’s in our best interest to savage the poor fucks out in fly over land. This is who we are now, this is who we voted for. And if some old socially conservative white people without a good education die off in Kansas from the cuts that’s good as well, one less vote for the right.

    You can’t have a socially progressive party that’s economically populist, pick one both won’t work. We are the party of social issues, and if some people get broke along the way oh well.

    This won’t hurt the Democrats at all. It’s in the best interest of our base to slash this, it plays well to education and income levels we represent, and mostly hurts the base of the other party (poor white morons). This is win win.

    And let’s get real, we won’t lose votes over this. We’ll just tell the cry babies that if they don’t vote Democratic Rick Santorum will prevent gays for marrying and force women to carry rape babies to term and they’ll all vote again because social issues are the only issues that define core liberal values.

    The party will be fine.

  39. 39.

    geg6

    @different-church-lady:

    Heh, for sure.

    From what I can see, Obama and team have treated the old Clinton team like the radioactive waste that they are.

    I really would like to vote for Hilary. But it ain’t gonna happen if she’s doing nothing more than getting the old gang back together. Not interested in that shit.

  40. 40.

    magurakurin

    @Loviatar:

    Who didn’t know that Obama wasn’t some liberal white knight? It was obvious in 2008. Obvious all along. But an Eisenhower Republican is far, far, far better than a Spanish Falangist fascist. And make no bones about it, that is the choice. Show me a socialist who can get elected POTUS and I will happily vote for them. Until then, I guess I’ll just have to listen to the bitching and pull down the big D lever.

  41. 41.

    Tyro

    @Loviatar: Obama loves craves the adulation of the “Very Serious People” even to the detriment of his party and our country.

    I find this to be true. There was some online Q&A he participated in where one of the questioners talked about how her husband was a circuits engineer and how bad the high tech job market was, and thatthere wasn’t much of a tech shortage. Obama replied with, “wow! This isn’t what technology CEOs have been telling me!” He does seem to take his cues from “important people in suits.”

    But it is a recurring problem– when he discusses higher education policy, do you think he has those discussions with junior professors or with college presidents?

  42. 42.

    Raenelle

    I’ve disagreed strongly with Obama over the past 4-1/2 years, sometimes to the point of deciding I wouldn’t vote for him. But he always managed personally to charm me. There was always a reservoir of good will there. So, of course, I voted for him again in 2012 (though no money this time). But I am super pissed now. He’s beginning to disgust me.

    I lived through the 60s. I know, because I was a good Democrat back then too, that a president can absolutely irrevocably lose his base. “LBJ, LBJ, how many kids have you killed today.” And that was for the guy who fought to give us the Great Society. Obama can squander the good will reservoir he has had. He can end up despised, hated, by his own base. Trying to heal divisions is one thing. Being an obsequious groveler to the plutocrats and trying to prove it to them by kicking those who fed and raised you in the groin–well, it’s feeling like “LBJ, LBJ” deju vu all over again.

  45. 45.

    geg6

    Holy fuck…I would never have guessed that a thread about that piece of shit Carville would turn into Firebagger Central swooping in and cheering on one of the architects of the DLC and triangulation and everything they’ve always told me they hate about Democrats.

    I thought they were more-progressiver-than-thou. Guess not.

  46. 46.

    Cassidy

    36 Ben Franklin Says:

    Fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap,
    fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap,
    OH OBAMA! HOW HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME! MONSANTO! DROOOONNNNEEEEZZZZ! CHAINED CPI! MANNING! OH YEAH, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap

  50. 50.

    jamick6000

    @Maude:

    You’re a day late and a dollar short. I predicted comments like this yesterday. Get on the stick, you’re way behind.

    try to jam a few more cliches in there, Nostradouchebag

  53. 53.

    Loviatar

    @mike with a mic:

    You’re correct. I keep forgetting that today’s Democratic party is the party of protecting Wall Street, Welfare reform and now Social Security benefit cuts.

    ———–

    Unfortunately to keep most of the Obot votes all they have to do is point and say at least we’re better than the Republicans.

  54. 54.

    askew

    @geg6:

    Jeebus. Is Hilary really going down this road again? Really? Okay guys, who else is running? Because I can’t deal with these yahoos again in one lifetime.

    Martin O’Malley sure seems like he is running and Joe Biden does as well.

  55. 55.

    Cassidy

    You dance well, but can you sing?

    Says the turd who can’t take part in any discussion without bringing up how how Obama betrayed him today. Maybe there’s an unrequited love thing going on here?

  56. 56.

    Cacti

    @Raenelle:

    I lived through the 60s. I know, because I was a good Democrat back then too, that a president can absolutely irrevocably lose his base. “LBJ, LBJ, how many kids have you killed today.”

    The hippies were the base? How precious. How did the hippies are the base strategy work out for McGovern in ’72?

  57. 57.

    amk

    Good luck, hillary, You gonna need tons of it in 2016 if you plan to run and run with the idjits like this.

  59. 59.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @jamick6000: Actually, there’s an interesting bit in there. So the president’s budget is designed to come in under spending, which should happen in a weak economy, if both parties were willing to govern the country. But if one side wants to make the debt ceiling a time to take the country hostage again, what would happen if the budget removed that chance?

  60. 60.

    Violet

    This sort of crap makes me hope Hillary either won’t run or won’t use idiots from the Clinton era if she does. Maybe she’s learned, since it didn’t work out so well last time. Ugh.

  61. 61.

    some guy

    Obama wants to cut Social Security benefits?

    who could have ever seen THAT coming? I mean, besides Orzag, Diamond, Bernstein, and the rest of Obama’s economic team for the last 5 years.

  62. 62.

    Ben Franklin

    @Cassidy:

    Still waiting for the shameless rhetoric of absolute Obamism. Did you lose your voice in the screaming orgasms that follow in his wake?

  65. 65.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @Raenelle: So, a question for you: What do you think a president who has:

    1. Expanded healthcare for Americans
    2. Passed the largest stimulus in US history
    3. Passed the largest VA spending increase in over 30 years
    4. Passed tax increases with Republicans in power

    is thinking in passing chained-CPI? Do you really think he’s doing this cause he wants to screw seniors?

  66. 66.

    Cassidy

    62 Ben Franklin Says:

    Fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap,
    fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap,

  67. 67.

    Petorado

    If a Villager doesn’t say Village-ery things to fellow Villagers, the booking agents will stop calling. Carville’s just paying the rent.

  68. 68.

    John D.

    To everyone jumping Obama’s shit over this — This is JAMES FUCKING CARVILLE. Why in God’s name are you believing any words that come out of his mouth, including ‘and’, ‘but’, and ‘the’?

  69. 69.

    dmbeaster

    @Ben Franklin:

    Yes, the old exception which proves the rule…..like this…..

    [Warren Report link]

    So you are a conspiracy nut? Seems like a non sequitur to me.

  70. 70.

    Maude

    @amk:
    Carville and Clinton are birds of a feather.
    In 2004, the Clintons spread a rumor that John Kerry was having an affair with an intern. The reporters said that it was the Clintons. The Clintons hate john Kerry.
    At least they could have had Kerry have an affair with someone other than an intern. How unoriginal.
    Bill Clinton is helping Margery Mongolas,(PA) I can;t spell her last name, to run for the House. She was in once before and was despised.

  73. 73.

    Cassidy

    @John D.: Because it gives the usual people, and some new ones (Hi Firebaggers. /waves), the chance to talk about how much Obama has betrayed us, thrown us under a bus, slapped us in the face and tell everyone how truely more pure and progressive they are than the rest of us. It’s an exercise in ego wankery.

  75. 75.

    some guy

    the real question is why does Carville’s mouthing of something that is patently obvious drive the BJ Center Right Fight Club up the wall?

  76. 76.

    amk

    @John D.:

    This is JAMES FUCKING CARVILLE. Why in God’s name are you believing any words that come out of his mouth,

    clueless morons ?

  77. 77.

    Ben Franklin

    @dmbeaster:

    You don’t have to be a conspiracy nut to guffaw at a ‘magic bullet’. Warren was held up like some sort of stealth liberal, kinda like Nixon going to China. Hey, when is Obama going to China?

  78. 78.

    J.W. Hamner

    I think Yglesias is right that the Brooks column and stuff like this indicate the Democratic coalition is actually fairly vulnerable to being split apart on entitlements if Republicans actually cared about policy in any form.

    Thank the FSM that they don’t.

  79. 79.

    The Moar You Know

    The hippies were the base? How precious. How did the hippies are the base strategy work out for McGovern in ’72?

    @Cacti: Hippies, as a group, didn’t vote. Never did.

    Even if they had, I don’t think there were enough of them to have made any difference.

  80. 80.

    Emma

    @geg6: If this is representative of Hillary’s team I will definitely do whatever I can to get her beaten in the primaries. Carville is a creep. Everyone she gathers around her are creeps. In spite of my admiration for the woman herself and the job she has done, I won’t have any of those ratf*ckers near the White House if I can help it.

  81. 81.

    Elliot Rosewater

    Obama once again is playing a long game.

    Obama knows the GOP can’t say yes so there is no danger in offering the moon.

    With this offer he dangles the Grand Bargain out there and looks like the grown up reasonable person.

    Meanwhile the GOP fights among itself (talk radio lately has been 1/2 Obama hate and 1/2 GOP establishment hate).

    The Progressives remind everyone they are the champions of Social Security and will not back Obama while it is the GOP who wants to dismantle it.

    Obama won’t be running again so he won’t be punished at the polls for touching the third rail in a plan that has zero chance of passing.

    He is setting up 2014 and even if the Dems don’t retake the House if they outpoll the GOP again gridlock will be broken as even the loss of a few more GOP seats will convince them that always saying NO is a losing proposition.

  82. 82.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Maude: Bill Clinton is helping Margery Mongolas,(PA) I can;t spell her last name, to run for the House. She was in once before and was despise

    Marjorie Margolies? Chelsea’s mother-in-law? I don’t know her career, but IIRC she was tagged by the media as the deciding vote in passing Clinton’s first budget and that cost her her seat (that and her then husband, Chelsea’s FIL, being indicted), so I’ve got some sympathy for her.

    @Loviatar: Unfortunately to keep most of the Obot votes all they have to do is point and say at least we’re better than the Republicans.

    If only we’d listened to all you smart people who told us there was no difference between Bush and Gore. Verily, putting Bush in the White House for just four years would lead to an uprising of The People! Then President Dennis will lead the way to EmoProgTopia!

  85. 85.

    some guy

    @Emma:

    maybe she could rehire the union buster, now that she has finally paid him all the millions she owed him?

  86. 86.

    handsmile

    A political has-been, James Carville has remained a B-list Village celebrity primarily because his PUMA credentials can be relied upon to needle Obama and his policies (“even some prominent Democrats think…”). His corpse has been revived of late with all the inane and febrile speculation about HRC 2016.

    But Carville’s requisite and gleeful hippie-punching aside, his contention is little different from the explanation advanced by Paul Krugman in his “Imaginary Grown-Ups” blog post:

    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/10/imaginary-grownups/

  87. 87.

    Violet

    @geg6:

    Jeebus. Is Hilary really going down this road again? Really? Okay guys, who else is running? Because I can’t deal with these yahoos again in one lifetime.

    Yeah, I’ve grown to like and admire Hilary, but the people in the Clinton machine, not so much. I hope if she runs that she’s learned a thing or two from Obama’s election machine.

  89. 89.

    Raenelle

    @Cacti: Right. LBJ didn’t run for a 2nd term because he lost the hippies. And, hippy punching? Really? Sounds like you need a little David Brooks love too.

  90. 90.

    Chyron HR

    @John D.:

    Carville’s been magically promoted to “Obama Advisor” because it’s politically convenient for the President’s critics. Like when that person on CNN pointed out that Ann Romney’s never had a job.

  91. 91.

    AxelFoley

    @Cacti:

    Carville will always be bitter that Obama got the best of the previously unbeatable Clinton machine.

    Yup. Him and all the other firebaggers/PUMAs. They are THIS mad still.

    And shit like this all but confirms to me that Hillary is gearing up for another run.

  93. 93.

    cvstoner

    Nice to know that Obama cares more about what Brooks thinks than the left wing of his party. I’m sure the liberal base is quite reassured by that.

  94. 94.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @The Golux:

    I’ve never figured out how Carville was unable to land the role of Gollum.

    He couldn’t pull off the somewhat sympathetic and pitiable Smeagol personality.

  95. 95.

    Hill Dweller

    When was the last time a President extended the social safety net as much as Obama has while in office?

  97. 97.

    gene108

    @mike with a mic:

    Epic.

    I am humbled. My inner O-bot smashed.

    We’re not worthy to have you grace this blog. Quit wasting your talents here and seek a broader audience.

    Maybe even start your own blog? You could fund it with Bitcoins. I here they are cheap right now.

  98. 98.

    gene108

    @mike with a mic:

    Epic.

    I am humbled. My inner O-bot smashed.

    We’re not worthy to have you grace this blog. Quit wasting your talents here and seek a broader audience.

    Maybe even start your own blog? You could fund it with Bitcoins. I here they are cheap right now.

  100. 100.

    Hal

    Wasn’t one of the terms best used to describe the Clinton Presidency triangulation? As in trying to appeal to conservative Republicans, and real, hard working white voter so Bill could win re-election despite Dems being handed their asses in the midterms?

    James Carville is so full of shit I’m surprised he isn’t leaking the brown stuff from every orifice.

    Also, for the OBOT! screaming crowd, where have you been all these months? The problem as I see it is some folks have been screaming betrayal from day one, so when there is a legit point to make, you’ve swathed yourself in so much self pity it’s hard to be taken seriously.

    I’ve spent damn near five years reading about all the ways Obama and Bush are long lost brothers, and it’s just such complete bullshit it’s difficult sometimes to parse legitimate commentary.

  101. 101.

    eemom

    omg, what a glorious clusterfuck of a thread.

    I luvz y’all. Fer realz I do.

    However, can someone explain to me how we got from Carville (surely one of the most disgusting things God ever made, up to and including slugs) circle jerking on teevee over the Obama budget, to Carville running Hillary’s unannounced 2016 campaign? Did I miss something?

  102. 102.

    pamelabrown53

    @The Moar You Know:

    Interesting that you said: “You need to patent this post. It drew firebaggers like I’ve never seen”.

    Yesterday, I decided to look in on ground zero of firebagger central and I read a comment stating that even the “centrist” Balloon Juice has had enough of Obama. (This was a chained-cpi diary, of course).

  103. 103.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @handsmile: If I were King of the United States, I’d turn economic policy over to Krugman. That said, you might think that having been, by his own admission, pasted by Joe Scarborough in a debate about economics, might have taught him a little humility when offering his opinion on politics.

  104. 104.

    NonyNony

    @J.W. Hamner:

    I think Yglesias is right that the Brooks column and stuff like this indicate the Democratic coalition is actually fairly vulnerable to being split apart on entitlements if Republicans actually cared about policy in any form.

    What do Republicans have to do with splits in the Democratic Party?

    If the Republicans really and truly wanted to destroy the Democratic Party forever, all they would have to do is let the Democrats have power for a decade without any major push-back. The infighting would destroy the party and force it into a multi-decade rebuilding mode. One of the perils of a loose-coalition, big tent party is that there’s a hell of a lot more pissing in than out going on.

    See “1960s, The” for when the Republicans have come the closest to pulling this off unintentionally.

  109. 109.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Never forget that Carville sleeps with a Sith apprentice, an apprentice of the Dark Lord himself.

    Carville is scum.

  112. 112.

    jamick6000

    @eemom: you missed the part where cultists who don’t want to argue substance try to distract from the issue at hand.

  113. 113.

    Poopyman

    I still can’t figure out which of these sockpuppets are true firebaggers and which are just DougJ trolling. Not that it makes any difference and not that I’m going to worry my beautiful mind over it.

  115. 115.

    Poopyman

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Never forget that Carville sleeps with a Sith apprentice, an apprentice of the Dark Lord himself.

    I hear it on good authority that they sleep in separate coffins.

  116. 116.

    FlipYrWhig

    When was the last time James Carville spoke to Obama at all about anything? I don’t get why anyone thinks this isn’t another example of “If I were him I’d be thinking X.” It’s literally introduced with “I think” and “if.” You people are weird.

  120. 120.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Poopyman: Well, there’s the one who says “fight club” in every other post. That’s something you couldn’t possibly automate!

  121. 121.

    Suffern ACE

    If James Carville confirms what I’m thinking, it must be true. And as an “insider” he is in a much better position than I am to imagine what Obama thinks in the morning when watching his TV.

  122. 122.

    Chyron HR

    @jamick6000:

    Why do you cultists refuse to argue substance?

    What I love most about your post is you seem entirely oblivous to any possible ironic interpretation of it.

  123. 123.

    Ben Franklin

    @Cassidy:

    So you’re saying STD or osmosis?

    You seem quite preoccupied with bodily fluids.

    As your Dr. i recommend you begin drinking heavily.

  125. 125.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @FlipYrWhig: Political obsessives who spend their time typing their snarky observations about politics on a blog like Patton Oswalt writing out his scripts for phone calls to sports talk radio in the movie Big Fan are “weird”? I should like to see some empirical data on your assertion which I find unconvincing, and until I do I shan’t subscribe to your newsletter.

  126. 126.

    Loviatar

    I would like to see a headliner post on what it would take for them give up on Obama.

    For me it was a combination of him:

    1) Preemptively giving up on Universal Healthcare before negotiations even started

    2) Not fighting for single payer as a backstop

    3) Providing the insurance companies with a huge windfall by using a Republican healthcare plan – now called Obamacare.

    ———

    And finally

    4) Not a single person has gone to jail been indicted as a result of the 2007 Financial crisis

    ———

    Obots,

    You are welcome to chime in with your one shining moment.

  127. 127.

    amk

    @Suffern ACE: LOL. Heh, the firebaggers can get any number of convenient friends of the moment if they put their kenyan usurper hatred to work. Witness calamity jane & grover fucking norquist.

  128. 128.

    Cassidy

    @Loviatar:

    Loviatar Says:

    I would like to see a headliner post what it would take for them give up on Obama.

    For me it was a combination of him:

    I DIDN’T GET A PONY!

  130. 130.

    El Caganer

    James Carville knows what the President thinks? James Carville knows what the President reads? James Carville knows what the President watches on the teevee? Why do I have a hard time believing that?

  133. 133.

    Ben Franklin

    @Loviatar:

    That won’t do it for the half-a-loaf crowd.

    Now if he were to pardon Manning….Apocalypse

    No worries. Ain’t gonna happen.

  135. 135.

    J.W. Hamner

    @NonyNony:

    I’m not talking about “destruction of the Democratic party” so much… though obviously entitlement reform would damage it… but that if Republicans really wanted “structural entitlement reform” they could probably get it for some package of pre-k, science funding, infrastructure ect… that would split off moderates/neo-lib Dems and probably be signed by Obama.

    Luckily there is no indication they actually want “structural entitlement reform” unless it only hurts people too young to vote Republican.

  137. 137.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Loviatar: For me, it was when he decided to be a politician. “No politician will ever satisfy me,” I thought as I cried big round tears of paradoxically satisfying dissatisfaction. But I found some consolation in the idea that a small group of wannabe radicals were available online to swap stories about genetically modified drones powered by Bradley Manning’s underpants. That made me both indignant and aroused.

  142. 142.

    Davis X. Machina

    @jamick6000: It’s what any good ambassador does — Obama is representing the United States to the government of the country to which he is accredited.

  143. 143.

    dmbeaster

    @Ben Franklin:

    You don’t have to be a conspiracy nut to guffaw at a ‘magic bullet’.

    Yes you do. The one bullet theory is something that one can question, but the basic problem is that no one has a better theory explaining the forensic evidence. A conspiracy nut finds something uncertain and think it is proof that something else happened. A realist accepts that life has peculiar wrinkles and goes with the scenario most supported by the evidence, even if it is somewhat remarkable. The point is that you accept what is most consistent with the evidence rather than seeing uncertainty as proof that some grand conspiracy must therefore exist based on other speculative evidence, since we allegedly cannot believe what is actually in front of us.

  145. 145.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Loviatar:

    You are welcome to chime in with your one shining moment

    Well speaking personally, I was charmed by that time back in the first week of April 2009 when he took a moment out his busy schedule to spit in your soup. That sort of attention to detail is something I really appreciate in a leader.

  146. 146.

    gene108

    @NonyNony:

    I don’t think the modern Democratic Party is as fractured over any issue now, as it was over LBJ’s escalation in Vietnam.

    They’ll do as much as is safe for them to get re-elected.

    It’s up to “movement liberals” to move the country Left and make it safe for Dem pols to move Left.

  147. 147.

    Hill Dweller

    @jamick6000:

    you missed the part where cultists who don’t want to argue substance try to distract from the issue at hand.

    I asked, ‘who was the last President that extended the social safety net more than Obama has during his time in office?’, but there hasn’t been any takers. Do you care to take a shot?

  148. 148.

    liberal

    @Tyro:

    Obama replied with, “wow! This isn’t what technology CEOs have been telling me!” He does seem to take his cues from “important people in suits.”

    I don’t disagree, but this really isn’t a fair indictment of Obama—the entire Congress is like that. At least in MSM treatment of the topic, the immigration reforms being wrangled include discussions of H1-B visas, particularly for tech workers. There are all these references to tech companies arguing (ie, lobbying) for more tech worker immigrants. (Tech workers themselves pretty much don’t have any organized lobby, or any organization at all, as far as I can tell.) It should be pretty obvious that they would say the same thing regardless of what tech sector unemployment is, as long as labor is pricier than they’d like it to be. Yet the Congresscritters are either too stupid or too corrupt to get that.

  150. 150.

    dmbeaster

    @Elliot Rosewater:

    Obama won’t be running again so he won’t be punished at the polls for touching the third rail in a plan that has zero chance of passing.

    Only problem with this scenario is you do not win elections for others in your party by this tactic. You risk a repeat of 2010 by sowing nothing but discouragement. It is bad policy and politics.

  151. 151.

    FlipYrWhig

    @J.W. Hamner:

    if Republicans really wanted “structural entitlement reform” they could probably get it for some package of pre-k, science funding, infrastructure ect… that would split off moderates/neo-lib Dems and probably be signed by Obama.

    It definitely would. That’s what the Democratic party looks like in the South and outside major cities and college towns. It’s essentially the Bill Clinton/Mark Warner approach. There are a lot of people left of that position, but not a majority, not even of Democrats. We can’t forget that when we’re wishing for a more progressive politics. Managerial technocratic Democrats aren’t a small slice of the party, they represent a big chunk of the party — basically the white part of it.

  152. 152.

    Patrick

    Asked by co-host Mike Barnicle how the President will respond to the outrage from the left-wing of the Democratic Party, Carville was blunt.“I think he likes that,” Carville said. “I don’t think he’s upset. He got a very favorable Washington Post editorial. ‘Morning Joe,’ very favorable commentary right here. I guarantee you if he’s up watching this right now. Got a good David Brooks column. He’s kind of excited this morning. This is kind of important to him.”

    That’s funny considering Obama was against the disastrous Iraq war from the get-go, while his own candidate Hillary Clinton voted for it.

    And while we are at it, when is Carville going to start attacking senators like Bernie Sanders and Amy Klobuchar for voting against closing gitmo (which Obama wanted to close)?

  154. 154.

    Ben Franklin

    @dmbeaster:

    but the basic problem is that no one has a better theory explaining the forensic evidence

    If all you’ve read is a regurgitation of the Warren Report, I can understand why you would be so naive.

    Links on the putative forensic evidence are available online..

  155. 155.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @amk:

    Smart of cole to buy off the trouble ?

    Once you start paying the Dane-geld, you never get rid of the Dane.

  156. 156.

    Violet

    @Loviatar:

    I would like to see a headliner post on what it would take for them give up on Obama.

    Headliner? Like Beyonce or Shakira or Springsteen?

  157. 157.

    Yutsano

    @Pooh: And it STILL won’t pass. Because THAT ONE still occupies THEIR White House. Why is Congress always completely blameless in these firebagger/Obot wankfests?

    @AxelFoley: Moths, flame, etc.

  158. 158.

    AxelFoley

    I give the firebaggers credit–usually this many of them only come out at night. During the day, you might get one or two of them. We got a handful of them today.

  159. 159.

    Joe Buck

    I don’t care for Carville, but instead of making it about personalities, would any of the Obama defenders on this thread care to explain why chained CPI is a good idea?

    These days, few people have pensions, most have very little money in their 401Ks, many have no or negative equity in their house. These folks will need to rely on Social Security for 90% of their income. The proposal is to cause the real value of the social security payment to decline over time, and thanks to compound interest the effect will grow and grow. How can you defend this? Stick to the subject and don’t distract us with personal attacks on Carville or anyone else.

  160. 160.

    amk

    @gene108:

    It’s up to “movement liberals” to move the country Left

    You mean like they did during healthcare care debates ? Like they are doing now with immigration reforms and gun control ?

    The fucking teabbagers at least organized for their fucked up ’causes’ and voted back in a rethug congress within 2 years of dubya’s nightmare.

    The firebaggers are only good for whining and dissing.

  161. 161.

    handsmile

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I believe “bested’ is a rather more accurate description than “pasted,” but you can read Krugman’s own appraisal here (an appraisal, btw, not shared by a great many who watched the exchange, myself included. Though let me add that I wish Krugman had not agreed to appear with the buffoon Scarborough):

    http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/paul-krugman-joe-scarborough-bested-me

    I recognize that it is a tenet of faith among some here that Paul Krugman is politically naive. I find this assertion baseless. A “little humility” is what I would counsel to those who tender such opinions about a figure as essential and courageous as Krugman.

  162. 162.

    Hill Dweller

    @J.W. Hamner:

    Luckily there is no indication they actually want “structural entitlement reform” unless it only hurts people too young to vote Republican.

    Which was the entire point of Obama proposing something he knew never had a chance of passing.

    Republicans have been asking for C-CPI, both privately and publicly, for the last year. They’ve also claimed to support “revenue neutral” tax reform. Obama offered them both in his budget, but Republicans won’t bite because they’re nihilists.

    Obama has made it perfectly clear to the apologists in the Village the Republican party will never deal, even if they’re offered everything they want.

  164. 164.

    Davis X. Machina

    @FlipYrWhig: The party in question is not called the called the ‘Social Democratic Party’, or the ‘Socialist Party’, or the ‘American Labor Party’ — and all of them do, or did, exist — for reasons besides residual affection for Andrew Jackson.

    Coalition politics are hard. In Europe you fight the election, then form the coalition, then govern. Here you form the coalition, fight the election, then govern.

    Thank you, James Madison.

  165. 165.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Yutsano: Cult of the Presidency. Chris Hayes, of whom I am a fan, spent two segments talking about Obama’s budget, and besides rather stupidly if not dishonestly equating it with Greek austerity programs and never, of course, mentioning the stimulus it contains (though he did mention the increase in minimum wage), never mentioned the word “congress”.

  166. 166.

    AxelFoley

    @Yutsano:

    @Pooh: And it STILL won’t pass. Because THAT ONE still occupies THEIR White House. Why is Congress always completely blameless in these firebagger/Obot wankfests?

    You said it–because of that Irish Kenyan in the White House.

  167. 167.

    Chris

    @mike with a mic:

    We are the party of post graduate degrees, the richest and most unequal urban centers, and social liberalism. It’s in our best interest to savage the poor fucks out in fly over land. This is who we are now, this is who we voted for. And if some old socially conservative white people without a good education die off in Kansas from the cuts that’s good as well, one less vote for the right.
    …
    You can’t have a socially progressive party that’s economically populist, pick one both won’t work. We are the party of social issues, and if some people get broke along the way oh well.

    Ahhhhh. There. Theeere it is.

    Welcome back, SteveInDC! Where ya been?

    So we’re back to that old canard – the real problem with all our politics is that we, the sinful East and West coasters, aren’t giving the [white, male] heartland enough hugs. Shame on us! Let us abandon our socially liberal ways (e.g. stop fighting for the rights of women, gay people, nonwhite people, non-Christian people or anyone other than the white male heartland) and run back to the [white, male] heartland begging for forgiveness – and fuck all these other people we’re leaving behind!

    Ah, ratfucking. It’s not just for Nixon and Carville anymore…

  168. 168.

    RaflW

    I think Obama’s default setting is seeing himself as President of the entire United States. The whole “there is no red America, there is no blue America…” is likely not just highfliging rhetoric for him.

    So he proposes ‘tough’ solutions (to the wrong problem, but that’s another post). The failing for Obama is that at least 27% of Americans absolutely reject that he’s even the President. Another maybe 20% gravely dislike him, his policies, and the (ahem) Democrat Party.

    I think Obama seriously doesn’t know who his audience is.

    If, on the other hand, it is just a vile bromance with David Brooks, then I’m just going to pack up and move to France.

  169. 169.

    Loviatar

    @Cassidy: / @raven: / @amk: / @FlipYrWhig:

    I notice you guys are pretty quick with the insults but kind of slow with any constructive responses. Way to grow the party and convince people that your side is correct.

    ———

    President Obama had a historical chance to change this country by passing true Universal Healthcare and he walked away from it. He will always be a historical figure as the first black president, but nothing more.

    ———-

    For those who disagree; despite being in office now for 5 years and having a Democratic Senate for all 5 years and a Democratic house for the first 2 years. Tell me besides signing a Republican healthcare plan (Obamacare) what other significant piece of legislation has Obama signed?
    .

    Like I said, historical for his race and not much more.

  170. 170.

    liberal

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    That said, you might think that having been, by his own admission, pasted by Joe Scarborough in a debate about economics, might have taught him a little humility when offering his opinion on politics.

    Except for the fact that someone’s ability to debate extemporaneously on television probably has zero correlation with their ability to give good political advice.

  171. 171.

    John D.

    @Loviatar:

    1) Preemptively giving up on Universal Healthcare before negotiations even started
    2) Not fighting for single payer as a backstop
    3) Providing the insurance companies with a huge windfall by using a Republican healthcare plan – now called Obamacare.

    Interesting. So, the ones who actually removed single-payer are totally fine, and it’s Obama’s fault.

    Could you explain to me — using short words, because I am obviously retarded — how Obama is to blame and not Lieberman, Nelson, and Baucus? Because I was, y’know, alive and following this in 2009-2010, and I seem to recall them having a lot to do with the payer aspects of the PPACA.

    “I think at this time, in this country, single payer is not going to get to first base in the Congress.” is Max Baucus.

    “If the bill remains what it is now, I will not be able to support a cloture motion before final passage,” Lieberman said is Lieberman on Single Payer.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-5615006-503544/ben-nelson-says-he-might-block-dem-health-care-bill-/ is Nelson on refusing to vote for cloture if a public option is kept in.

    Obama didn’t kill the public option. Obama didn’t kill single payer. These three (and Blanche Lincoln) did. Quit blaming him for the actions of Congress.

  172. 172.

    lojasmo

    I still remember Carville doing an interview just after Obama clinched the nomination. Slacks, a plaid shirt, tie, and a brand new SHINING set of Puma tennis shoes, sticking WAY out in front of him. I shit you not. PUMA shoes.

    I wouldn’t trust him farther than I could throw him and his ratfucking wife, tied together..into a volcano.

  173. 173.

    RaflW

    @Hill Dweller:

    Obama has made it perfectly clear to the apologists in the Village the Republican party will never deal, even if they’re offered everything they want.

    Won’t matter. The Village is more addicted to both sides to it than to any other thing under the sun. Acknowledging GOP nihilism kills their self-deluding buzz.

  175. 175.

    liberal

    @handsmile:

    I recognize that it is a tenet of faith among some here that Paul Krugman is politically naive. I find this assertion baseless.

    IMHO his most politically prescient prediction was that (a) the stimulus wouldn’t be nearly enough, (b) the admin wouldn’t get another bite at the apple, (c) the lack of a really robust response to the stimulus that would eventually pass would be taken as evidence by the austerians that fiscal policy can’t be expansionary.

    Came to pass exactly like that.

    Of course, cue the usual Obot responses, primarily “he can’t pass bills, Congress does!” Which misses the point that it appears that not only did they not try for a higher stimulus, by all appearances they didn’t even realize that they should try for a higher stimulus.

  176. 176.

    Yutsano

    @Joe Buck: You’re looking at Chained CPI in a vacuum. You have to look at the entire budget proposal covering this, including the areas where lowest income seniors get other economic supports besides SS. By itself yes Chained CPI would be a bad thing, but there’s more than just that change proposed.

  177. 177.

    jamick6000

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    I think he believes that something has to be done about SS, and Chained-CPI, something proposed by Republicans before, would be something that could pass.

    I agree, the problem is nothing actually needs to be done about SS now or this decade. We have a lot of problems today, Social Security isn’t one of them.

  178. 178.

    MomSense

    OH FFS!! I am beyond sick of the stupid coming from the left on this issue. I expect it from the tea party since they are swimming in the low end of the gene pool. But I do have higher standards for people who are otherwise intelligent.

    If you are screaming cat fud right now, please do all of us a favor and go read some history about social security. Also, Dems like Tip O’Neill, Jimmy Carter, William Jefferson Clinton–all made cuts to Social Security. I think the proposal to create a minimum benefit above the poverty line for the first time and to increase the benefits for older recipients are both fantastic improvements which will protect the most vulnerable seniors. They are the anti cat fud provisions if you will because the status quo is not good for the lowest income seniors right now.

    And if you are also calling for the “easy” fix of just raising the income cap–it is not so easy. Payouts are proportional to contributions by design. If you change this much more than already exists, you are fundamentally changing the social security system and may in fact make it much more vulnerable to attack. At least recognize that there is nothing easy about this fix.

    I do not watch the teevee but I did watch a couple of videos of Lawrence O’Donnell segments on the subject. Well worth the time. Reading the SS trustees report is also worth the time–even just the summary. By 2021 we will have to start redeeming trust fund assets because the payouts will be greater than income + interest. This is not some far-off, made up problem. Yes the right demagogue about Social Security but the left love to gloss over the challenges and that is also irresponsible.

    I am also pissed that Universal pre-k is completely ignored in all the poutrage over the budget proposal. Guess who is most likely to live in poverty in this country? A child. Children are being bombarded on all sides by deteriorating education, insufficient career prospects, a deteriorating environment and food supply. Pre-k is one of the most effective ways to increase graduation, school achievement, lifetime earnings, and to prevent incarceration. WTF is wrong with progressives if we are not championing this cause right now?!

  179. 179.

    danielx

    “I think he likes that,” Carville said. “I don’t think he’s upset. He got a very favorable Washington Post editorial. ‘Morning Joe,’ very favorable commentary right here. I guarantee you if he’s up watching this right now. Got a good David Brooks column. He’s kind of excited this morning. This is kind of important to him.”

    Well, there you go. Favorable ratings from Pravda on the Potomac, favorable commentary on Morning Joe, and (best of all) a good column from David Fucking Brooks. A triple win from the Village! What could be better?

    Republican shrieks of anguish and rage would be a whole lot better, as would a Kaplan Daily editorial bemoaning B. Barry Bamz’ lack of bipartisan spirit topped by an encomium from Bobo about the good old days when Ronnie and Tip could cuss each other out and then sit down and do deals – unlike now, when Democratic intransigence is sending the country into a downward spiral of deficits, 1960s decadence and dirty fucking hippies having too much fun. (It just about writes itself, doesn’t it?)

    Barack, ol’ buddy – whatever you give these bastards in the name of political expediency, they’re going to want more. And more, and more…and will scream until you give it to them, and then they’ll say it’s still not enough.

  180. 180.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Joe Buck: don’t care for Carville, but instead of making it about personalities, would any of the Obama defenders on this thread care to explain why chained CPI is a good idea?

    Speaking for myself, I don’t think it’s a good idea. Bad policy, bad politics. But I also don’t reduce Obama’s presidency to one policy, and I don’t think chained CPI is the Great Betrayal of the New Deal.

  181. 181.

    dmbeaster

    @raven:

    Do you know about the umbrella man?

    Yes. There is also the man with the walkie-talkie. There are countless other “what’s that?” stories concerning the assassination. They do not disprove the Warren Report. Odd things do not constitute a conspiracy unless you are a conspiracy nut. They do provoke grounds for thought and inquiry, but they have never lead to anything other than empty speculating, which somehow becomes proof for discounting the Warren Report.

    By the way, someone came forward and claimed to be the umbrella man, and provided an explanation for why he had an umbrella there. Conspiracy theorists will always have an answer for that too — they are like psychotics with their own self-referential world that cannot be affected by data. The idea that the umbrella man is actually someone signalling shooters is pretty ridiculous if you think about it at all. But the “logic” is simply to point and say “what’s that?” and then treat that as proof that we cannot believe the official report, which is utter rot.

  183. 183.

    Tonal Crow

    As usual, if we want a politician to do something, we need to call her, write to her, write letters to the editor, protest on the streets and (sometimes) get arrested for protesting on the streets.

    Otherwise, the politician is certain to do what she (and her most generous funders) wants to do.

  187. 187.

    John D.

    @liberal:

    Of course, cue the usual Obot responses, primarily “he can’t pass bills, Congress does!” Which misses the point that it appears that not only did they not try for a higher stimulus, by all appearances they didn’t even realize that they should try for a higher stimulus.

    Oh, for fuck’s sake.

    The stimulus cloture vote on 2/9/09 was 61-36, with 3 Republicans voting for it. How, exactly, was Obama supposed to get them to support a LARGER stimulus? I’ll wait.

  188. 188.

    jamick6000

    @Hill Dweller: yes, there are more poor people today, more people who need unemployment, more people who need medicaid, more people who need foodstamps GOOD JOB Obama, QED EMOPROGZZ

    ok but seriously, I think this is indicative of a couple different schools of thought in the democratic party. The Obama/Third Way idea is that the global economy is rough and we need the government to soften the blow by looking out for the “vulnerable” (the losers that the system creates). The progressive/new deal idea is that we should have nice stuff for everyone. ie Medicare for all vs. increasing the Medicaid cutoff from $12,000 to $15,000

  189. 189.

    dmbeaster

    @Joe Buck:

    I don’t care for Carville, but instead of making it about personalities, would any of the Obama defenders on this thread care to explain why chained CPI is a good idea?

    Who are the Obama defenders who think chained CPI is a good idea? I don’t see any. And this thread is about Carville’s crap about how Obama allegedly is doing this because he craves Republican attention. It is not about personalities, but about how this odious creep loves to make up crap about Obama.

  190. 190.

    Hill Dweller

    @RaflW:

    Won’t matter. The Village is more addicted to both sides to it than to any other thing under the sun. Acknowledging GOP nihilism kills their self-deluding buzz.

    I don’t disagree. The Village’s paychecks are contingent on being GOP apologists. But what they can never do is accuse Obama of never compromising.

    Granted, the accusation has always been laughable, but the C-CPI offer is high profile enough for even low info voters to notice. If he plays it right, Obama can use that as a cudgel for the rest of his term.

    Once gun control and immigration reform are resolved, I suspect Obama will start hammering Republican intransigence on an array of economic issues(minimum wage, sequester, debt ceiling hostage taking, etc.), which will be the backbone of their 2014 messaging.

  191. 191.

    dianne

    I assured everyone months ago at this very site – not to worry – Obama will not do anything to hurt the Dems in the upcoming elections – especially Hillary in 2016. SS and Medicare will be off the table for sure. Wow. I was really wrong. I thought surely the smart guys in DC had at least as much sense as I do. My bad.

  192. 192.

    schrodinger's cat

    @liberal: Don’t you think that the legal immigration system needs an overhaul too? For example, do you know that if you are from India and have had your I-140s approved (the intent to immigrate) you still have to wait for almost a decade to apply for the green card, the wait for a Chinese citizen is 5 years.
    *My numbers are based on the April Visa bulletin that just came out.

  195. 195.

    MomSense

    @liberal:

    You know I heard a segment on Marketplace one morning. The reporter framed his question with the assumption that it is widely known that you did not favor a larger stimulus, and in hindsight do you wish you had asked for more.

    Larry responded by saying that they all wanted a much larger stimulus but that they couldn’t get more from Congress. It’s not like they sat around a room and guessed that Congress would say no. There are actual people who work for the President who talk to the members of Congress while any legislation is being written to put together something that will get the votes.

    Even with what they did request from Congress, they had to cut out funds for school construction, pandemic flu and other things to get the support of my two Senators from Maine. I will have you know that we started making calls to ask Mainers to call their offices at the end of December of 2008.

  196. 196.

    Hill Dweller

    @John D.:

    The stimulus cloture vote on 2/9/09 was 61-36, with 3 Republicans voting for it. How, exactly, was Obama supposed to get them to support a LARGER stimulus? I’ll wait.

    Even the House version, which Dems controlled, wasn’t much bigger than the final bill.

    The Republican filibuster gave all the power to the “centrists” like Ben Nelson, Collins, Snowe, etc. In conference, they arbitrarily reduced the size of the stimulus.

    I’m not sure people truly appreciate how devastating Republican filibusters were, even when Dems controlled both chambers.

  197. 197.

    lojasmo

    @Joe Buck:

    I don’t care for Carville, but instead of making it about personalities, would any of the Obama defenders on this thread care to explain why chained CPI is a good idea?

    You’re not going to get any takers. Even the fiercest Obots (like me) don’t think the implementation of chained CPI is a good idea.

    Simply put, in this environment, congress won’t pass Obama’s budget as proposed. They won’t pass the tax hikes, and they won’t pass chained CPI
    Not. Going. To. Happen.

  200. 200.

    Loviatar

    @lojasmo:

    You’re not going to get any takers. Even the fiercest Obots (like me) don’t think the implementation of chained CPI is a good idea.

    So why propose it since SS has a separate funding stream and has nothing to do with the budget.

    ————

    Simply put, in this environment, congress won’t pass Obama’s budget as proposed. They won’t pass the tax hikes, and they won’t pass chained CPI
    Not. Going. To. Happen.

    So why give the Republicans a BIG stick to hit the Democrats over the head with in 2014.

  202. 202.

    gene108

    @amk:

    It’s easy to get your shit together, when billionaires are bankrolling your protests.

    The problem with the Left is there isn’t anybody with a lot of money to tell the peons to STFU, go over there and yell into the cameras, like the astro-turf groups did with the Tea Party; as well as not having Fox News dedicate 24/7 coverage to a middling size number of demonstrations on 4/15/2009, which were otherwise not terribly news worthy.

    Unfortunately billionaires (or maybe not, on second thought) aren’t movement liberals, so we’re (a) left to figure out how to get heard and (b) will fight over each other to get heard.

    Despite the volume of firebaggers on various blogs, their actual impact on the overall political debate is pretty minor, unless you make a conscious decision to visit Firedoglake or Dailykos.

    The only media saturation firebagging is cable of getting is if Maddow or Hayes lets their inner firebagger loose on the air and digs into Democrats for kicks, when they could be kicking Republicans, just as easily.

    Hoping OfA can help push things along on the ground or at the least manage the GOTV in off-year elections.

  203. 203.

    handsmile

    @MomSense:

    I’d like to second your recommendation of the Lawrence O’Donnell segments on the history of Social Security that have aired this week. Exceptionally informative on the topic!

    Of especial note was his decision to highlight and celebrate the role of Frances Perkins, FDR’s Secretary of Labor and the first woman in US history to hold a cabinet position, in the creation of the original Social Security Act. It was thrilling to watch video clips of FDR signing/explaining the legislation and to listen to audiotapes of Perkins herself later recollecting the bill’s development.

    On a completely unrelated personal note perhaps of interest to a Pine Stater, a number of years ago, the handsmiles stumbled upon the gravesite of Frances Perkins. She is buried in a cemetery in Newcastle, Maine (along River Road, iirc), with a tombstone far more modest than her historical importance would merit.

  204. 204.

    MomSense

    @Yutsano:

    I’m just frustrated because I have kids and I worry for their future. It seems like 2014 is sort of our last chance to try and elect Democrats who are far from perfect but much more likely to do something about climate change or education, or anything else for that matter.

    If we have gridlock until 2016 it is going to be pretty tough to elect a Democrat. And I think there is some bizarre mythology at work by the pro-Hillary crowd. Bill did some terribly destructive things as President and Hillary’s record as a Senator was not exactly dream candidate material.

  205. 205.

    lojasmo

    @Loviatar:

    So why propose it since SS has a separate funding stream and has nothing to do with the budget.

    Jesus, It’s been explained to you many times before.
    ————

    So why give the Republicans a BIG stick to hit the Democrats over the head with in 2014.

    Smart democrats will decry this loudly and from the rooftops. See: Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

    Obama’s not up for election in 2014.

    Again, this is nothing that hasn’t already been explained several times IN THIS VERY THREAD.

  206. 206.

    lojasmo

    @Loviatar:

    Couldn’t edit: I trust Obama’s sense of electoral politics and policy above yours by many exponential degrees of expression.

  207. 207.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @jamick6000: I agree that chained-CPI is the wrong way to fix any problems with SS. At what point do we deal with the predicted shortfall in SS in the near future?

    But don’t sit here and type that no one is actually trying to talk about the actual issue.

  208. 208.

    Raenelle

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): No. I thinks he wants to please his peers.

    But I also think he believes in capitalism, the Milton Friedman version. I think he’s akin to David Gregory ideologically. Did you know that part of his budget proposes to privatize the TVA? That’s just a serious love for the market and its magical powers in the long run. He didn’t nationalize the banks. He didn’t give us the public option. He’s done dick over the global melt-down. And, I hate to bring this up, but Bradley-fucking-Manning! No banksters are in jail, but beware of the Presidential wrath if you’re a whistle blower.

  209. 209.

    Loviatar

    @lojasmo:

    So why propose it since SS has a separate funding stream and has nothing to do with the budget

    Jesus, It’s been explained to you many times before

    Since I’ve missed the explanation. Explain this to me like I’m a four-year-old, okay?

    ———-

    Obama’s not up for election in 2014.

    So because Obama is not up for reelection in 2014 its okay to fuck over the Democrats who are up for reelection. I understand it now, its the political version of I’ve got mine so fuck you

  210. 210.

    MomSense

    @Hill Dweller:

    Also Dems didn’t actually control the Senate for very long.

    Franken wasn’t confirmed for a loooooong time. Then there was the mess in Illinois with Obama’s seat. Byrd was hospitalized most of the time and Teddy was–well we all know what was happening with him.And when one of your caucus members campaigned for the Republican nominee questioned the patriotism of the Dem nominee–you really have some challenges. The only reason the President kept him in the fold was because he was a yes vote on DADT repeal and on climate change. We never got to climate change because of the Brown fiasco. There really was not much time with a slim majority of Democrats.

  211. 211.

    Anna in PDX

    @MomSense: I really appreciated this post and think people should know more about social security. I will try to find the time to watch the O’Donnell clips.

    However I don’t think chained CPI is a good thing or even a responsible fix for a future problem. My partner who works with homeless seniors sees how hard it is for people who worked all their lives but had to retire early for some reason and don’t have anything to live on but SS, on a daily basis, and their COLAs do not seem the right thing to focus on in order to “fix social security”.

    I have seen analyses of the “raise the payroll cap” issue that say if we also raised the higher payouts to the higher earners, in other words keeping the whole approach of SS consistent, that would still be an overall good thing for the numbers, and would still fix the far-in-the-future problem of when the trust fund actually starts kicking in.

    I also think a thing we could do with SS is make it easy for higher earners to donate theirs back if they don’t need or want it on retirement. My grandmother wanted to do that because my grandfather’s pension from BF Goodrich was more than sufficient for them, and the SS admin told her it would cost them more to process it than her amount was worth. That was many years ago but I bet there are many responsible wealthy people who don’t want or need SS and would not mind donating it back to help the poorer people.

    It still boggles my mind that there are some places in the govt budget (SOCIAL SECURITY AND THE USPS) (sorry, I am not shouting at you, Momsense, but I am just appalled at this in general) that are somehow supposed to meet a MUCH higher bar of solvency than other parts of the govt budget. This is a plutocrat way of stealing the money, obviously, since they seem to always be targetting the most successful programs. The USPS issue makes me madder than the chained CPI issue. I don’t understand why there is not a lot of outrage about it in fact. It is the country’s biggest employer and being forced to become less competitive and fire people because of that ridiculous law passed through republican cruelty that makes them have to meet a projected health care future cost that no other govt agency has to meet.

  212. 212.

    White Trash Liberal

    I’m pissed that chained CPI was included. It’s a bad idea that punishes the vulnerable. Even with offsets for poverty level seniors, I think given the problems with global agriculture there are less risky avenues to assure the long term solvency.

    However, I applaud universal pre-K and the raising of the minimum wage. I think the left side of the debate would be marginally less insufferable if they were less myopic. The budget is more than chained CPI. There are prizes in there worth celebrating and pushing for. I don’t know. I’m so fucking sick of firebaggers.

  213. 213.

    MomSense

    @handsmile:

    I know it well! I have family in Newcastle and live only about 30 minutes or so from there.

    Were you able to visit the Frances Perkins Center? Very cool.

  214. 214.

    Loviatar

    @lojasmo:

    I trust Obama’s sense of electoral politics and policy above yours by many exponential degrees of expression.

    Yeah because he has accomplished so much in his 5+ years in office.
    .

    What you’re telling me is Obama is a good politician, but when it comes to governance he seems to be lacking.
    .

    Remember Sonny Bono and Gopher were also got elected to Congress.

  216. 216.

    MomSense

    @Anna in PDX:

    My understanding is that the minimum benefit is meant for folks just like the ones who retire early. Even with the COLA adjustments we are talking about a higher monthly benefit for them than the status quo.

  217. 217.

    Emerald

    @liberal: @liberal:

    Which misses the point that it appears that not only did they not try for a higher stimulus, by all appearances they didn’t even realize that they should try for a higher stimulus.

    Obama started out asking for more than a trillion, but that died a-borning because the three Republicans he needed to get the bill passed wouldn’t go for that. They are the ones that dictated the $700 billion figure.

    Paul Krugman is a truly great economist, but doesn’t seem to grasp basic politics. He said that Obama should have asked for more than a trillion, then blamed Obama instead of the Republicans when we didn’t get that much.

    Of course, both Krugman and Obama were right. We needed over a trillion. If we’d been able to get that, we’d be out of the woods by now.

  218. 218.

    NR

    @Hill Dweller:

    I’m not sure people truly appreciate how devastating Republican filibusters were, even when Dems controlled both chambers.

    The Democrats could have done away with the filibuster at any time with a simple majority vote.

    Republican filibusters were only a problem because the Democrats allowed them to be a problem.

  219. 219.

    Mnemosyne

    @Anna in PDX:

    However I don’t think chained CPI is a good thing or even a responsible fix for a future problem. My partner who works with homeless seniors sees how hard it is for people who worked all their lives but had to retire early for some reason and don’t have anything to live on but SS, on a daily basis, and their COLAs do not seem the right thing to focus on in order to “fix social security”.

    MomSense got to it first, but the actual C-CPI proposal is to raise the current minimum benefit for the poorest seniors, so they’ll actually get MORE now and then that larger amount will rise more slowly over the years.

    This is coupled with an extra boost for people over (IIRC) 75 or 80 years old so their COLA increases are a little higher than those of younger people because they’re more likely to have exhausted other sources of income.

    There are specific provisions of the C-CPI proposal that are designed to avoid exactly the problems you’re worried about, but you’d never know it from reading diaries at Kos or Firedoglake.

    ETA: IIRC, the proposal is to make the minimum benefit 125% of the poverty level. Right now, it’s entirely possible for a senior to be getting SS payments below the poverty level depending on their work history, so everyone would get boosted up to a new minimum.

  220. 220.

    White Trash Liberal

    And to Loviator, et al, who insist in concern trolling about how the big bad GOP is going to hurt us over this budget:

    The GOP’s plan is to privatize SS. Yet there are still an ample amount of seniors who vote GOP. No matter what is done, the GOP lies about it. These lies are then massaged and distributed by a pliant media. I don’t see how Obama’s budget changes the core equation of a political system that has its thumb on the right scale. Perhaps instead of trying to think out all the terrible consequences of this one facet of the budget and run around crying about our corrupt state of civics and discourse, you could push for a better outcome by contacting your representatives and asking for universal pre-K and higher minimum wage, but insist on a better plan for our seniors.

    Or maybe you just want to shadow box with Obots because it makes you feel better about your own savage impotence.

  221. 221.

    patroclus

    @Joe Buck: It (chained CPI to reduce the rate of increase in Social Security) isn’t a good idea – the Firebaggers are right on this one; not only on the substance but on the politics and negotiating theory as well. Hence, they are lording it over us (as they should when they’re right).

  222. 222.

    Ben Franklin

    @Loviatar:

    So because Obama is not up for reelection in 2014 its okay to fuck over the Democrats who are up for reelection

    The pushback against Obama critique peaked in 2012, as his re-election was the penultimate goal.

    Now it’s about his legacy. Fuck everything and everyone else.

  223. 223.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Emerald: Obama started out asking for more than a trillion, but that died a-borning because the three Republicans he needed to get the bill passed wouldn’t go for that

    It wasn’t just those three Republicans. There were at least six Democrats who set their ceiling at 800 billion, and Claire McCaskill was actively seeking to make her media bones as a Fiscally Serious and Responsible Democrat. And we can only name those names because Senators are so much more visible than House members, Grunwald reports in his should-be-required reading book that a lot House members couldn’t understand the distinction between “stimulus” and “bail out”, and the same is true of, I’d bet, the majority of American voters.

  224. 224.

    Keith G

    In the name calling sweepstakes, the side supporting this Obama decision are leading those who are against it. That is such a shame because in the past, it was the Republicans who had a support-the-leader-or-else mentality. The Democratic Party had it’s issues, but still it believed in convincing people with an attempt at reasoned discourse (at least when compared to the other side).

    Whether or not I call my Congressman and tell him to support Obama’s ideas for S.S. will not depend on Carville, Brooks, or Dionne, but on whether or not the President puts together a solid proposal providing real, secure, protections for the elderly poor. I am nervous about protections that are part of yearly budgeting process – programs that may easily be under-funded.

    Cassady and Cacti (and others it seems) can belittle others as long as they chose, but that is not presenting a case.

  225. 225.

    gene108

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Don’t you think that the legal immigration system needs an overhaul too?

    The longer I look at the clusterfuck legal immigration is in, the more I think “comprehensive immigration reform” is nothing more than a quick way for Democrats to lock-up the Latino vote, without actually fixing anything.

    As long as D.C. is in austerity mode, I don’t know how immigration will handle millions of new applications from illegals.

    The idea’s good in principle, but I don’t see anyone actually trying to figure out how to make “comprehnsive immigration reform” work in a practical, real world manner.

  226. 226.

    Hill Dweller

    @NR: I don’t disagree, but I don’t think Reid ever had the votes. Even now, after all the Republican nihilism and obstructionism, I don’t think they have the votes.

    A lot of the old school Senate Dems are either traditionalists and/or want to hold on to their power. There is also the fear of Republicans taking over in ’14.

  227. 227.

    handsmile

    @MomSense:

    Not yet! In fact, we only learned about it last year from an article in the Lincoln County News. We’ll surely visit it this summer as part of our Pemaquid vacation. Thanks much for the tip! (Didn’t realize you were a MidCoaster.)

    Also too, is this remarkable story getting much play in the Maine media, “Hermit caught after 27 years in Maine woods”:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/11/american-hermit-caught-27-years

    (I feared it might be Davis X. Machina but I saw he posted on another BJ thread today.)

  228. 228.

    Suffern ACE

    @White Trash Liberal:

    I think given the problems with global agriculture there are less risky avenues to assure the long term solvency.

    I’m not making fun or being snarky, but what connection are you seeing to agriculture?

  229. 229.

    muddy

    Sounds like good news for Obama to be, Carville is always wrong, not to mention he looks like one of those hideous snakehead fish.

  231. 231.

    Mnemosyne

    @Hill Dweller:

    A lot of the old school Dems are either traditionalists and/or want to hold on to their power.

    A lot of the old school Dems were championed and elected with the help of James Carville and still believe in the same policies Carville does.

    Anyone who thinks Carville doesn’t have a dog in this hunt is an idiot.

  232. 232.

    lojasmo

    @Loviatar:

    explain like I’m a four year old

    He is proposing it because it makes him look like the adult in the room, making moderate compromises, which are ultimately going to be rejected by a nihilistic republican
    caucus.
    What you’re telling me is Obama is a good politician, but when it comes to governance he seems to be lacking.

    —-
    No, that’s what YOU’RE saying. I’m saying he’s an excellent politician and has also governed in a way that has passed more progressive legislation than any president in my lifetime, and yours too, if your attitude and opinions belie your age, which I would take to be about seventeen based on the quality of your reasoning.

  233. 233.

    Splitting Image

    I’m just throwing it out there, but has it occurred to anyone that Carville is resurfacing at this juncture to sabotage Hillary Clinton rather than Obama?

    After all, she is the odds-on favourite to defeat the Republican jobber if she runs.

  234. 234.

    Mnemosyne

    And, yes, to be clear, one of the reasons I’m pissed that Carville opened his fat fucking mouth and spewed this to great applause from the firebaggers is that Carville is one of the guys who’s been rallying the conservative Democrats to block things like the stimulus and healthcare reform.

    Carville helped kill the public option in the Senate, but he’s the new firebagger hero because he parroted what they want to hear about Obama and David Brooks. Nice own goal, guys.

  235. 235.

    Suffern ACE

    He is proposing it because it makes him look like the adult in the room, making moderate compromises,

    Is chained CPI moderate? Or is it the most radical change to social security on the table?

  236. 236.

    patroclus

    @Mnemosyne: Granted, it’s not as bad as portrayed because of the bump in benefits. But the better policy would be to bump the benefits for the least wealthy/poor seniors and to fund it by raising the FICA tax limit and, very gradually, raising the retirement age. Monkeying around with the COLA’s, in my view, is not the best way, either politically or as a matter of policy.

  238. 238.

    Emerald

    @Loviatar:

    Yeah because he has accomplished so much in his 5+ years in office.

    Yeah, he has. More than any Democratic president since FDR, including LBJ who’s the only one that comes close.

    Here’s the list as of November, 2010 (hasn’t been updated since then), all with nice reference linkys and everything. Just click on all the little arrows for the details: http://obamaachievements.org/list

    Note again that this list encompasses only his first two years.

    Here’s a shorter list that goes up to 2012, although these lists clearly come from the deluded Obots, so I suppose it’s possible that these facts aren’t really real: http://obamaachievements.org/

  239. 239.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Splitting Image: I’m just throwing it out there, but has it occurred to anyone that Carville is resurfacing at this juncture to sabotage Hillary Clinton rather than Obama?

    Personally, no. I always said that Bill Clinton was/is so bitter about ’08 because he thought he was owed her nomination. I think Carville’s thinking runs along the same lines.

    @Mnemosyne: The Firebagger/PUMA Alliance of Resentment has always been one of the funniest things about the blogosphere. Am I the only one who remembers Carville trying to shiv Howard Dean in ’06 to put Harold Ford in at the DNC?

  240. 240.

    Joel

    Was Carville involved in Hillary’s 2008 campaign in any way? Because fuck those grapes are sour.

  241. 241.

    Hill Dweller

    Does anyone genuinely think C-CPI will make it out of congress?

    Hell, I think the WH was counting on it not getting out of congress. They had to know Republicans would hypocritically attack what they’d been requesting for a year, making it very easy for Dems to oppose it.

  242. 242.

    Loviatar

    @White Trash Liberal:

    The GOP’s plan is to privatize SS. Yet there are still an ample amount of seniors who vote GOP. No matter what is done, the GOP lies about it. These lies are then massaged and distributed by a pliant media.

    And Obama is helping to defeat this messaging by…? Oh yeah, muddying the waters by suggesting that the Democrats be the party of reducing SS benefits.

    ———

    Perhaps instead of trying to think out all the terrible consequences of this one facet of the budget and run around crying about our corrupt state of civics and discourse,

    so sayth the man who does not or will not depend upon SS for his livelihood.

    ———–

    Or maybe you just want to shadow box with Obots because it makes you feel better about your own savage impotence.

    “because it makes you feel better about your own savage impotence” niiiice line, I like it and will use it in the future.
    .

    The reason I shadowbox with the Obots is my anger at their seeming intransigence in the face of facts and evidence. We have a FUCKING republican president in all but name in office and because he has a D in front of his name the Obots have this blind attachment to his policies even though those policies fly in the face of Democratic ideals.

    My God he has proposed cutting SS benefits for our most vulnerable and all we get from the obots are excuses and references to 12 dimensional political strategy.

    ———

    Again, In his 5+ years in office, besides signing a Republican healthcare plan, please name a significant piece of legislation that President Obama has signed.

  244. 244.

    geg6

    @Ben Franklin:

    Now if he were to pardon Manning

    Why, exactly, would he do that? I’m seriously asking. The guy did what he is alleged to have done, namely gave government secrets to people who aren’t entitled to them. Not even Americans, actually, unless somehow Julian Assange gained U.S. citizenship without me noticing it.

    Do the crime, do the time. When I have done illegal things, I have never had the expectation that I would get away with a slap on the wrist for it or be pardoned because Jane Hamsher got involved (not that I’d have her involved with anything pertaining to me, but that’s a whole other story). If I gave up classified information to people, non-citizens actually, who didn’t have clearances, I’d expect to go to jail for a good long time. Why should Bradley Manning not? Please be specific as what should be done with a guy who, though he is obviously naive and not very bright about how the world works, who pled guilty to 10 counts of violating the UCMJ and the Espionage Act?

  245. 245.

    Mnemosyne

    @patroclus:

    But the better policy would be to bump the benefits for the least wealthy/poor seniors and to fund it by raising the FICA tax limit and, very gradually, raising the retirement age.

    The minimum retirement age is already 67 if you were born after 1960. Realistically, I don’t think it’s a good idea to raise it even further.

    Monkeying around with the COLA’s, in my view, is not the best way, either politically or as a matter of policy.

    Actually, IMO monkeying around with the COLAs isn’t a bad idea in principle — I know that there was one experimental COLA being developed called the CPI-E that is supposed to specifically look at the things the elderly and retired are most likely to spend their money on and calculate their COLA from that.

    I think that there’s a fair argument that this is the wrong COLA fix and I haven’t entirely made up my mind either way because I’ve heard good arguments on both side (on the pro side, primarily that as healthcare costs get reined in, the increase people are currently getting to help pay for healthcare won’t be as necessary anymore), but I’m not against the idea of looking at the various ways of calculating CPI and rejiggering the COLA as needed.

  246. 246.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Also, too, RIP Jonathan WInters. I remember an old Carson-era Tonight Show when he just took over the show with a stream of consciousness monologue that just left Carson laughing hysterically, still one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.

  247. 247.

    Suffern ACE

    Granted, it’s not as bad as portrayed because of the bump in benefits. But the better policy would be to bump the benefits for the least wealthy/poor seniors and to fund it by raising the FICA tax limit and, very gradually, raising the retirement age. Monkeying around with the COLA’s, in my view, is not the best way, either politically or as a matter of policy.

    Raising the retirment age to solve any problem will be met with howls from middle-class progressives that make Chained-CPI foofaw seem like Anzio.

    Right now the retirement age is 59 for middle class folks with IRAs and 401(k)s. 62 for those who choose early SSA. 65 for to start recieving Medicare.

    Which of those ages are you toying with. My medicare/social security full retirement age is already 67.

  248. 248.

    patroclus

    @Emerald: Well, I think LBJ accomplished more (domestically) in 5+ years than Obama has (so far) in 4+ years; primarily because he had a very compliant Democratic Congress throughout and had a very good working relationship with Dirksen. Medicare, Medicaid, all the Civil Rights laws, all the education laws, the environmental laws – the list of the Great Society goes on and on and on. On the other hand, Obama is winding down wars whereas LBJ was starting/expanding them; which is a gigantic difference. Obama’s list is impressive so far, but, in my view, not as extensive as either FDR or LBJ.

  250. 250.

    lawguy

    @Hill Dweller: It may not, but now the democrats own it. Which means that the republicans will be able, once again to run against democrats who want to cut social security and this time it will be the truth.

  251. 251.

    Hill Dweller

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Also too, Clinton, among the other damaging policies passed during his term, proposed allowing the government to invest SS money in the stock market, but congress wouldn’t bite.

  252. 252.

    Mnemosyne

    @geg6:

    I don’t get this line of thinking either — the whole point of civil disobedience is to make the authorities send you to jail. That’s why it’s called “Letter from a Birmingham Jail,” not “Letter from a Burmingham Holiday Inn.”

    I really, honestly don’t understand the people who think they’re entitled to break the law (even an unjust one) and escape all punishment because hey, maaannnn, the law is unjust! Jim Crow laws were unjust, too, but civil rights workers didn’t whine that it was unfair to jail them for breaking them. They pointed out that the laws were unjust and got them repealed, but they never claimed they shouldn’t face any punishment for breaking them.

  253. 253.

    liberal

    @Loviatar:

    And Obama is helping to defeat this messaging by…? Oh yeah, muddying the waters by suggesting that the Democrats be the party of reducing SS benefits.

    IMHO if you want to make the case that his move is damaging, this is the #1 reason.

  254. 254.

    liberal

    @Emerald:

    Yeah, he has. More than any Democratic president since FDR, including LBJ who’s the only one that comes close.

    The claim that on domestic policy Obama has done more than LBJ is LOL funny.

  256. 256.

    Corner Stone

    @MomSense:

    Larry responded by saying that they all wanted a much larger stimulus but that they couldn’t get more from Congress.

    Larry who? Larry Summers? Because he is lying his fucking balls off. He’s the one who never presented any options above $1T to Obama because he hated the idea. Fuck Larry Summers and anyone who believes his stupid fucking lying CYA bullshit.

  257. 257.

    geg6

    @Joe Buck:

    I’ll bite.

    I think chained CPI sucks and I wish he hadn’t even brought the subject up. But I still support the vast majority of what he’s done and will do. I’ve lived 54 years and still haven’t seen a perfect politician whose every policy position perfectly tracks with my own.

    I have written to him and to my senators and rep. But I’m not going to suddenly start hating on Obama. I helped put him where he is and I still trust him to do the right thing. And I really don’t think his budget is going anywhere anyway. IMHO, it was simply to get one out there and have it be “centrist” in the Villagers’ eyes. Beyond that, I think it has no relevance to real life, which is that the GOPers will scream about raising revenue and kill the whole thing.

  258. 258.

    Cassidy

    @Keith G: Well, when our resident shit for brains firebaggers actually have an argument worth debating, then sure, let’s do it. Until then, positions based on emotional rhetoric, hyperbole, and poutrage martyrdom aren’t going to get treated with respect.

  259. 259.

    Loviatar

    @lojasmo:

    He is proposing it because it makes him look like the adult in the room, making moderate compromises, which are ultimately going to be rejected by a nihilistic republican
    caucus.

    LOL, Oh my God the frustration.

    He has been done that before and its gotten hem nothing from the Republicans or the Village (definition of insanity)

    ———-

    No, that’s what YOU’RE saying. I’m saying he’s an excellent politician and has also governed in a way that has passed more progressive legislation than any president in my lifetime, and yours too

    You know who was a politician and governing pragmatist Clinton (see DOMA and DADT). Obama is a politician, he has yet to show me any governance.
    .

    Obama passed a Republican healthcare plan and… Oh yeah he also signed the Lily Ledbetter Act and announced a couple of Presidential actions around gay rights.
    All of which can be repealed or worked around by the next republican president.
    .

    Just because President Obama is to the left of the current Republican party does not make his progressive in his outlook. But, please feel free to list/link all those progressive legislation that he has signed.

  260. 260.

    Corner Stone

    @Emerald:

    Obama started out asking for more than a trillion, but that died a-borning because the three Republicans he needed to get the bill passed wouldn’t go for that. They are the ones that dictated the $700 billion figure.

    Links or cite for Obama wanting more than a T for stimulus please. Every account I have read from insiders not covering their ass has indicated he was never presented plans or options for more than $800B and he never asked for more.

  261. 261.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @patroclus: he had a very compliant Democratic Congress throughout

    Also a martyred president, a non-crazy and frequently liberal Republican Party, the old Democratic machines and bosses, a white middle class that hadn’t been convinced by the lethal combination of Nixon, Reagan and racial resentment that government was an alien and hostile force, a less centralized media less dominated by people whose own finances corresponded to the ruling class, didn’t have to deal Aunt Mildred worried about “Baybeez!” and homophobic Uncle Fred in Wichita, et cetera et cetera.

    But the important thing, of course, was that time he took a shit with the door open while yelling at a bunch of Senators in the Oval Office.

  262. 262.

    dmbeaster

    @Loviatar:

    The reason I shadowbox with the Obots is my anger at their seeming intransigence in the face of facts and evidence. We have a FUCKING republican president in all but name in office and because he has a D in front of his name the Obots have this blind attachment to his policies even though those policies fly in the face of Democratic ideals.

    You are shadow-boxing with your own demons then, since you do not accurately describe Obama or his supporters.

  263. 263.

    liberal

    @gene108:

    It’s easy to get your shit together, when billionaires are bankrolling your protests.

    This is very, very important point.

    While one really can replace money with unpaid time, organizational problems are far easier if you can throw money at them.

  264. 264.

    Hill Dweller

    @lawguy: Obama owns it. Dems, if they’re smart, will forcefully oppose it, and link it to Republicans.

    The WH has been characterizing the inclusion of C-CPI as a concession to Republicans in exchange for more progressive policies. Carney explicitly called it Republican policy after Rep. Walden opened his mouth.

    But the Republicans don’t have a unified message on this. Boehner publicly disagreed with Walden after he attacked Obama. The Club for Growth put Walden on their “Primary My Congressman” website. They know hypocritically attacking the policy they’ve been requesting for a year gives Obama an out.

  265. 265.

    Raenelle

    This thread has kind of shocked me. I wrote above that this all reminded me of the 60s, and I was pissed at Obama. I don’t mind disagreements, and I’ll fight back if I think I’m right. But what shocked me was hippy-punching. A lot of it. WTF? Is this the kind of site this is? A bunch of DLC-ers who feel all centrist because they enjoy mocking hippies? Like I said, I was pretty shaken by the form disagreements to what I wrote took.

  266. 266.

    Corner Stone

    Beyond all the name calling I’m still not sure. Is it the position here that Obama does not intend to use the Op-Eds of David Brooks et al as part of his political strategy?
    Because otherwise, what was it all for?

  267. 267.

    Suffern ACE

    @Loviatar:

    My God he has proposed cutting SS benefits for our most vulnerable and all we get from the obots are excuses and references to 12 dimensional political strategy.

    Yo. Middle class butthead. Our most vulnerable seniors are the poor ones. Those seniors actually are better off under this plan. Also the most vulnerable ones are the elderly 20 years into retirement. They also appear to be better off in this plan, which seems to solve problems for them without raising the FICA tax on workers. A tax which is rather regressive to begin with has not been raised. Nor has the retirment age been raised. Nor are those lovely lifetime benefit caps that Ryan loves so much offered up.

    You could of course be using this time to condem chained CPI and talk about the plight of the poor and what a good alternative might be. But no. Your concern is not for that guy.

  268. 268.

    Ben Franklin

    @geg6:

    Do the crime, do the time

    Do you mean ‘aiding the enemy’? Cuz that’s the linchpin for convicting him of a crime.

    They are feverishly trying to get some evidence that OBL tallied the cables and formed a response.

    The lack of interest by the centrists (or should I say enablers) gives air to Obama.

    He is not going to pardon.

  271. 271.

    Cassidy

    @Raenelle: Mocking firebaggers and mocking hippies are not the same. If you think they are, you are most assuredly not a hippie.

  272. 272.

    geg6

    @Raenelle:

    And, I hate to bring this up, but Bradley-fucking-Manning!

    Then don’t. Because Bradley Manning gets not one iota of sympathy from me. He’s a spy. He thought he was being one of the good guys, but he’s a spy by any definition. Fuck Bradley Manning.

  273. 273.

    liberal

    @Corner Stone:
    The impression I have having read most of that book by Suskind (Confidence Men) is that Summers/Geither/etc really did think $1T was adequate, which is odd because people like Dean “predicted the dot com and housing bubble collapses” Baker had simple back of the envelope calculations showing that it had to be much more.

  276. 276.

    Ksmiami

    @mike with a mic: tend to agree… I mean mitt carried the social security crowd by a huge percentage… I used to feel kind of sorry for these ppl until they voted for bushes war debt and other atrocities. Screw em. This white cohort has been nothing but a bunch of selfish racist pains

  278. 278.

    Hill Dweller

    @Loviatar:

    You know who was a politician and governing pragmatist Clinton (see DOMA and DADT). Obama is a politician, he has yet to show me any governance.

    Again, Clinton proposed allowing the government to invest SS money in the stock market, which is far more f’n crazy than C-CPI.

    Clinton also cut welfare far more than necessary before the ’96 election to bolster his conservative cred, infuriating Dems.

    You apparently have no f’n clue what went on during Clinton’s term. He makes Obama look like FDR.

  279. 279.

    liberal

    @Hill Dweller:

    Obama owns it. Dems, if they’re smart, will forcefully oppose it, and link it to Republicans.

    But Obama, as president, is the de facto head of the Democratic Party. So in that sense, the Democrats do indeed own it.

  280. 280.

    patroclus

    @Mnemosyne: People are living a lot longer than in 1936 when SS was enacted or 1949, when it was greatly expanded. I could see 68 for those born after 1980 and 69 for those born after 2000. No changes to Medicare though because even though we’re living longer, the current ages seem right for when people start needing expanded medical care. But something like that should only be considered as part of an overall SS fix; not as part of the annual budget fights. So I’m not advocating this now or even soon, but whenever Congress does get around to a SS fix, I’m guessing that this would be considered. But the best funding mechanism would be to raise the FICA tax limit (i.e. taxing wealthier people more) – that would raise a ton of money and extend SS solvency for quite a few years.

    I’m much more reticent on COLA adjustment – benefits need to keep up with inflation, period. I’m wary of just raising the floor and then gradualizing the benefit increase – in just a few years, the benefit bump would be eaten up by the COLA decrease. Then, you’d need another benefit bump in uncertain political waters.

  281. 281.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Emma: I think one of the most important factors in firebaggerism is they want drama, not actual accomplishments. They want Republicans to be as mad as we were in the Bush years. That and and what I can only assume is a willful cluelessness about who or what the American electorate is or how they react to politics and proposed policies. They live in the Faerie Kingdom of Should.

    Is that one really holding up DOMA and DADT as evidence that Clinton was a better president than Obama? I thought it was a Naderite, but I guess it’s a deeply confused PUMA. My apologies for the redundancy.

  282. 282.

    Ben Franklin

    @liberal:

    It’s all kabuki/window dressing. The intent is to as RWR maligned “I’m up to my keister in these leaks”

    When the FBI found sensitive — though it turned out, unclassified — documents in Thomas Drake’s basement, he was charged under the Espionage Act. When the Army found hundreds of thousands of classified — but not Top Secret — cables on Bradley Manning’s computer, they charged him with Espionage and Aiding the Enemy.

    But when the FBI found Top Secret documents on Sudan — our actual enemy, if sanctions count — in Reagan National Security Advisor Robert McFarlane’s basement, it decided to investigate him for illegal lobbying.

    http://www.emptywheel.net/tag/bradley-manning/

    The FBI has searched the apartment of former Reagan administration national security adviser Robert McFarlane for evidence of whether he lobbied for the government of Sudan, in violation of federal law.

    The search warrant is on file in federal district court in Washington. It shows agents seized items this month including handwritten notes about Sudan and White House documents with classifications up to Top Secret.

    From this I can only assume that McFarlane is being subjected to the same double standard that Clinton’s National Security Advisor Sandy Berger was (represented, it should be noted, by former Criminal Division chief Lanny Breuer), when he snuck 9/11 related documents out of the Archives, yet only plead guilty to a misdemeanor.

    When National Security Advisors take top secret documents, they’re called lobbyists, not spies.

  283. 283.

    Mnemosyne

    @Raenelle:

    I think you vastly misunderstand how young Democrats view things like the 1968 Democratic Convention and how the whole party fell apart in the 1960s and 1970s, allowing the corporatists to take over.

    We don’t see all of that as a heroic rebellion against the establishment. We see that as the beginning of the end of the Democrats as a working-class party, the beginning of the realignment that allowed Nixon and Reagan and both Bushes to be elected and forced Democrats to be more conservative.

    As far as I can tell, the 1960s generation decided that outside pressure groups were better than having politicians in your pocket who could actually pass legislation, and they were wrong. Dead wrong. And we’re still trying to clean up after that miscalculation.

  284. 284.

    Hill Dweller

    @liberal: But the WH is calling it Republican policy and its inclusion a compromise to get more progressive legislation.

    Also too, Republican leadership is on record supporting/requesting C-CPI.

    Sure, the wingnuts will hypocritically attack it, but the WH(and Dems) had to anticipate it.

  285. 285.

    Raenelle

    @geg6: Fair enough. Perhaps the reason we don’t share the same values here is that you’re patriotic.

  286. 286.

    patroclus

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, strictly in terms of numbers, Adam Clayton Powell at Education and Labor produced more bills enacted into law than any other legislator ever (including Sam Rayburn at Commerce during the New Deal). And LBJ was guiding all of that in a very “hands on” way. Obama has accomplished a lot, but it pales in comparison to LBJ’s wizardry due to all the factors you list.

  287. 287.

    Loviatar

    @Hill Dweller:

    Again, Clinton proposed allowing the government to invest SS money in the stock market, which is far more f’n crazy than C-CPI.

    Clinton also cut welfare far more than necessary before the ’96 election to bolster his conservative cred, infuriating Dems.

    I have no problem agreeing with these statement.

    Those were dickish DLC policies. But when I think governing pragmatist I think Clinton and DOMA/DADT.

    ———-

    One thing I’ve not seen mentioned much and has really jumped out to me on this thread is the sheer hatred of the Clintons and how it ties into the Obot psyche and their love of Obama. I guess for them he is their slayer of the dragon, Clinton. Kind of sad when you think about it, these so called Democrats save so much of their bile and bitterness for the Clintons. They take so much glee in any of the missteps or mishaps of our previous Democratic president.
    .

    Kind of sad, but thats to be expected of an Obot Democrat.

  289. 289.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @patroclus: Yeah, I was afraid you would think I was dismissing LBJ’s accomplishments (and I didn’t even mention labor, which was a huge force in 60s Democratic politics), but it drives me crazy when people talk about him or FDR as if the only factor in their unblemished records of unchallenged progressives heroism (Vietnam where? internment camps what?) were force of personality, and if Obama would just leeeeeaad!

    @Loviatar: Oh, puddin’, bless your heart.

  290. 290.

    geg6

    @Raenelle:

    Have you ever visited BJ before? Because if you are shocked by this, you’re either a newbie or you’ve been asleep for most the time you’ve been here.

    And I also remember the ’60s. The hippies were worthless attention whores who got nothing done, especially in the political realm. And none of whom voted, as far as I could tell from the ones I knew. And now they are all living in their McMansions and competing with one another over whose kid got more Ivy League acceptances. Fuck the hippies, worthless assholes that they were and are. I can’t tell you how much I resented being called a DFH during the run up to the Iraq War because I have no respect for actual hippies whatsoever. I only respect people who do something to deserve it. No evidence of hippies doing anything of note after 40 years now. So no respect from me at this late date.

  291. 291.

    Mnemosyne

    @Loviatar:

    Those were dickish DLC policies. But when I think governing pragmatist I think Clinton and DOMA/DADT.

    So DOMA/DADT were practical policies that Clinton had to pass, but Obamacare is EEEVVVIILLL!!

    Well, at least we know that we don’t have to treat you as a rational person anymore. ODS has officially melted your brain once you get to the “DOMA good, Obamacare bad” point.

  292. 292.

    patroclus

    @Raenelle: This forum has a number of trolls and a number of troll fighters who are more or less conducting daily battles – you just have to wade through some of them sometimes; especially on hot button Democratic in-fighting issues like this one. Usually, it’s more Obot than Firebagger, but on this issue not so much because the Firebaggers are right on this one.

  293. 293.

    Hill Dweller

    @Loviatar: I bet every person on this thread will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee.

    That said, you were the one that brought up Clinton’s supposed pragmatic governance in contrast to Obama.

    Clinton signed a lot of awful, awful legislation. Obama spent a lot of his first term trying to fix a lot of the shit passed during the Clinton and Bush years.

  295. 295.

    Cassidy

    One thing I’ve not seen mentioned much and has really jumped out to me on this thread is the sheer hatred of the Clintons Obama and how it ties into the Obot Firebagger psyche and their love of Obama Republican talking points. I guess for them he is their slayer of the dragon, Clinton magical fun time fairy land fluffy marshmallow fairy pony. Kind of sad when you think about it, these so called Democrats save so much of their bile and bitterness for the Clintons Obama. They take so much glee in any of the percieved missteps or mishaps of our previous Democratic president.

    fixed for accuracy

    I CAN HAZ PONY NOW!

  296. 296.

    geg6

    @Ben Franklin:

    Did Bradley Manning supply Julian Assange with classified information or not? Manning says he did. That makes him a spy in my eyes, if not the law’s. I don’t give a damn about what happens to that guy. I feel the same about Johnathan Pollard and Aldrich Ames. I’d feel the same about my sister if she did what Manning did.

  297. 297.

    chris

    We have a FUCKING republican president in all but name in office

    You need to take a good long look at any Republican in the last 40 years. When you stop throwing up, reconsider this comparison.

    Even if he were the reincarnation of Eisenhower on everything but certain social issues (which I don’t actually think is quite accurate, but for the sake of argument), that doesn’t come close to making him a Republican by contemporary standards. And it’s contemporary Republicans, not the party of Lincoln or Eisenhower, who win over 90% of elections not won by Democrats.

  298. 298.

    Ben Franklin

    As far as I can tell, the 1960s generation decided that outside pressure groups were better than having politicians in your pocket who could actually pass legislation, and they were wrong. Dead wrong. And we’re still trying to clean up after that miscalculation.

    When were you born? Because that’s bullshit written from the DNC playbook, especially in 1968.

    Johnson and humphrey were garden variety authoritarians with blood on their hands.

    The radicals were made radical by having Obummer grade company lawyers unleash
    cop riots on peaceful demonstrations. You think they arose of their own volition?

    And you guys cleaning up the mess is a different kind of riot.(laughter ensues)

  299. 299.

    ricky

    @dmbeaster:

    The reason he shadowboxes with Obots is because candidates he supports generally cannot win Congressional much less Senatorial, Gubernatorial, or Presidential Primaries.

    People who live with glass jaws should shadow box.

  300. 300.

    Anna in PDX

    @Mnemosyne: I agree with you that raising the retirement age is the entirely WRONG way to go. The SS system is failing people who are forced to retire early because they were laid off at 58 or are in poor health and can’t work to 70. For those who want to keep working more power to you but that is absurd and wrong for many reasons and it hurts the people who are already hurt the most by the current system, those who have to retire younger who tend to be the poorer people with the most health issues.

  301. 301.

    Ben Franklin

    Need I add that Chicago Mayor Daley was key in the cop riots at the Dem Convention.

    From where does Obama hail?

  302. 302.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ben Franklin:

    When were you born? Because that’s bullshit written from the DNC playbook, especially in 1968.

    I was born in 1969. I understand that nostalgia blinds you to what the actual consequences of 1968 since you only think about the awesome music and totally boss chicks you knew and not the 40 years afterwards.

    And you guys cleaning up the mess is a different kind of riot.(laughter ensues)

    Somebody’s going to have to do it after the way you guys fucked it up. What, everything has gone exactly the way you planned for the last 40 years and Nixon and Reagan were all just part of your master plan for liberal dominance of the political landscape?

  303. 303.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Cassidy: I CAN HAZ PONY NOW!

    A pony that is not inadequate, black or male.

    @chris: noted conservative bougie sell-out closet Republican Obot Rachel Maddow used to say in interviews: “I’m undoubtedly a liberal, which means that I’m in almost total agreement with the Eisenhower-era Republican Party platform.”

  304. 304.

    Corner Stone

    @Raenelle: I wouldn’t concern myself too much with anything geg6 says. She’s a blowhard buffoon who doesn’t care one iota for people to the left of her, which from what I’ve been able to determine includes Stalin on down.
    You can tell she’s very authoritative and sure.

    ETA Number 300? THIS. IS. SPARTA!!

  306. 306.

    geg6

    @liberal:

    Well, no, not by “my” definition. Ellsberg gave the Pentagon Papers to Americans only, including a senator, Mike Gravel, who published them in the record of his subcommittee. So not the same thing at all.

  307. 307.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Ben Franklin:Need I add that Chicago Mayor Daley was key in the cop riots at the Dem Convention.
    From where does Obama hail?

    okay, you’ve now outed yourself as a parody troll. Tomorrow you’ll be waving around Bill Ayers and Saul Alinsky. God I hope you’re getting paid for this. It would be too sad to think you’re doing it for fun

  308. 308.

    Cassidy

    @patroclus:

    but on this issue not so much because the Firebaggers are right on this one.

    No they’re not. It’s the same half-assed hyperbole, chicken little “the sky is falling” slacktivist martyrdom coupled with dime store psychology that permeates every Firebagger position.

  310. 310.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ben Franklin:

    From where does Obama hail?

    Hawaii. He didn’t arrive in Chicago until nine years after Daley died.

    If you think Harold Washington was Richard Daley Part Deux, you’re even more ignorant of recent history than I thought.

  311. 311.

    Loviatar

    @Mnemosyne:

    So DOMA/DADT were practical policies that Clinton had to pass, but Obamacare is EEEVVVIILLL!

    Clinton initially proposed a progressive solution and then had to settle for a compromise solution (DOMA/DADT).

    Obama proposed a compromise solution as his first, last and only solution.
    .

    If you can’t see the difference between the two governing styles there is nothing I can do to explain it to you.

  312. 312.

    Anna in PDX

    @Mnemosyne: Carville is an ass. And a professional troll since before troll was an internet term of art. That does not mean that chained CPI is a good idea, though.

  314. 314.

    Ben Franklin

    @Mnemosyne:

    What, everything has gone exactly the way you planned for the last 40 years and Nixon and Reagan were all just part of your master plan for liberal dominance of the political landscape?

    Reagan and Nixon were blowback from a failed DNC strategy of Kingmaking. Need I mention Joseph McCarthy and George McGovern who were both victims of the sort of bloodfeasting by the same Media and Political hacks.

    It seems the lesson learned by the Dems has been; “We have met the enemy, and it is us”

    So they put up a false-flag liberal, sell him to the electorate, so the democratic persona can be more like RWR. Then the Populist Trojan Horse alleges some token social programs so he isn’t seen as totally in the conservative tank. Voila !

  315. 315.

    geg6

    @Raenelle:

    Patriotic? I don’t think I’d describe myself that way. I believe in consequences. I’ve faced consequences in my life for doing the wrong thing. Now so must Mr. Manning.

    And that, right there, is the difference between me and hippies. The hippies have never lived with the consequences of what they’ve done. It’s been up to us, their younger brothers/sisters/sons/daughters, to clean up the fucking mess they’ve left us, politically, economically, socially, and environmentally. I hate fucking hippies and thrilled that I was too young to be one. Hell, I don’t even answer to the name Boomer, even though I’m technically one. I prefer the name many of us late “Boomers” (including the president) have claimed for ourselves, Generation Jones.

  316. 316.

    Hill Dweller

    In other news, Republicans are gearing up to hold the debt ceiling hostage again.

    Everything Obama has accomplished while President was in spite of the most insane, nihilistic opposition in modern American history. No President in the last century(probably more) has had to deal with this level of obstructionism.

  317. 317.

    Mnemosyne

    @Loviatar:

    Clinton initially proposed a progressive solution and then had to settle for a compromise solution (DOMA/DADT).

    Obama proposed a compromise solution as his first, last and only solution.

    So repealing Glass-Steagall was just one of those compromise solutions that Clinton was right to pass, but signing Dodd-Frank to try and fix some of the disasters caused by the repeal of Glass-Steagall was even worse than Clinton’s original repeal because it was Obama’s first, last, and only solution?

    Again, ODS is the only possible explanation for your knee-jerk “Clinton always good, Obama always bad!” reflex.

  318. 318.

    patroclus

    @Cassidy: LOL. I agree that they are, as usual, over-stating things with all their “Obama sold us out” shtick, but as I’ve said, I don’t agree with chained CPI as a policy matter nor do I think it’s good for Obama to lead his negotiating on the budget with his chin. Mnemosyne and OldMom have convinced me that it isn’t as bad as portrayed, but I still don’t support it and don’t want my representatives (Durbin, Kirk, Quigley) to vote for it.

  319. 319.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Anna in PDX: hat does not mean that chained CPI is a good idea, though.

    I agree, but the argument that Carville and his momentary fellow-travellers are making is that Obama proposed it specifically to piss off/throw under the bus/ Sister Souljahize “his base”, the infantile persecution fantasy (I’m very important and a threat and that’s why they hate me!) more common to the right.

    Reminds me of a poll from 2009 or ’10 that found IIRC that 10% of self-ID’d Democrats read liberal blogs, and ten percent of those identified as PUMAs (not how they phrased it, but that was the gist). It prompted a plaintive comment on a PUMA blog that still makes me chuckle “Are we really that small a sliver of the party?”

  320. 320.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ben Franklin:

    Reagan and Nixon were blowback from a failed DNC strategy of Kingmaking. Need I mention Joseph McCarthy and George McGovern who were both victims of the sort of bloodfeasting by the same Media and Political hacks.

    Yes, poor martyred Joseph McCarthy.

    Hee.

  321. 321.

    geg6

    @liberal:

    Hey, you called for my definition. Are you claiming that the NYT (who published without Ellsberg’s consent or knowledge) and a U.S. Senator are the equivalent of Julian Assange, probable rapist?

  323. 323.

    ricky

    I disagree with Carville. Obama is not concerned with pleasing Bobo.

    Having failed to enact death panels to solve ourselves of the pesky senior problem (should I more carefully say, White Senior problem), Obama is simply trying to backdoor his assault by starving them.

    It is obvious Obama isn’t punching hippies. He is enacting the sixities agenda. His vulnerable targets were over 30 then, and they’re pushing octogenerian territory and wasting oxygen now.

    Geez, even his proposal to give free school to underaged children (should I note mostly Non White Children) will tax the oldsters tobacky.

  324. 324.

    eemom

    @geg6:

    There’s also the fact that Ellsberg specifically leaked the Pentagon Papers for an actual, specific, and essential purpose
    — to out the lies behind the Vietnam war — rather than just, you know, randomly leaking a shit-ton of classified shit.

    I’ve always thought the comparison between Ellsberg and Manning was ridiculous, even when it was made by Ellsberg.

  325. 325.

    Cassidy

    @patroclus: I don’t support it either, but I don’t think it’s the horrible no good very bad day it’s being tossed out as either. As smarter people than I have pointed out, the proposal was 1) not offerred in a vacuum with other proposals to counter the impact and 2) (my own position) simply not going to be passed for any reason. Obama could propose outlawing abortion, Sharia, kissing, unauthorized sexytime, drinking, smoking, and being gay and the Republicans would vote against if it included a one cent tax increase and/ or because he’s a blah guy in their White House.

    I’ve always felt that even when he proposes something that makes me go “WTF Barry?”, it almost always turns out into a public dick stepping on the part of the GOP. I’ve never believed Obama is a liberal, but he is the most accomplished progressive POTUS in my lifetime and I trust him as the person I cast my vote for.

    And hey, some people can lead with their chin. See Anderson Silva.

  328. 328.

    MomSense

    @Suffern ACE:

    The other problem with raising the retirement age is that your health and life expectancy are much different if you have been a low income, laborer than if you have worked a salaried job with steady health care access, etc.

    It is a very unfair way to deal with SS funding.

  329. 329.

    Loviatar

    @chris:

    You need to take a good long look at any Republican in the last 40 years. When you stop throwing up, reconsider this comparison.
    .
    Even if he were the reincarnation of Eisenhower on everything but certain social issues (which I don’t actually think is quite accurate, but for the sake of argument), that doesn’t come close to making him a Republican by contemporary standards. And it’s contemporary Republicans, not the party of Lincoln or Eisenhower, who win over 90% of elections not won by Democrats.

    Never said he was a contemporary republican. I’ve always compared Obama to an 80’s/90s era Republicans. Your comment though makes my point exactly, today’s Republicans are not republicans by historical norms they’re radicals. Today’s Democrats unfortunately have moved right to occupy the space that used to be Republican territory. Therefore many of the policies espoused by President Obama and supported by the Obots are historically Republican policies.
    .
    President Obama if dropped in any decade from WW2 to the 2000s would be considered a Republican president by the policies he advocates. And yes I know he is black.

  331. 331.

    Mike Lamb

    @Loviatar: He proposed a compromise solution that barely passed. Seems to me that he read the political landscape pretty well.

    Would you have felt better if he proposed single payer and then ended up with the legislation as passed? Because single payer wasn’t ever happening…

  332. 332.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ben Franklin:

    Hey, I’m not the one claiming perfect recall of the time period. You are.

    According to Wikipedia (since I was only three years old at the time and have imperfect recall of the 1972 presidential campaign), McGovern was the hippie candidate who was strongly opposed by labor and other conservative Democrats, and he lost in a landslide to Nixon. So much for the idea that the hippies were, like, totally oppressed by The Man and denied their chance to vote for McGovern.

  334. 334.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Loviatar:

    Clinton initially proposed a progressive solution and then had to settle for a compromise solution (DOMA/DADT).

    Refresh my memory. What was the progressive solution Clinton proposed only to have to accept the pragmatic half-loaf of DOMA? Marriage equality? Civil unions?

  335. 335.

    Hill Dweller

    @Loviatar: @Loviatar:

    Clinton initially proposed a progressive solution and then had to settle for a compromise solution

    Clinton’s handling of his health care legislation was disastrous, and almost cost him his Presidency.

    Again, he gutted welfare to an unnecessary degree simply to bolster his conservative credentials before the ’96 elections. There is a pretty good case to be made those changes made the Great Recession worse.

    Once Clinton lost the congress to Republicans, he was a Republican for the remainder of his term, despite facing less obstrucionism than Obama has faced.

  336. 336.

    Mnemosyne

    @Loviatar:

    I’ve always compared Obama to an 80′s/90s era Republicans.

    Really? Which ones? Dan Burton? Newt Gingrich? Tom DeLay? Dennis Hastert?

    Name a few of the 80s/90s Republicans that you think Obama is exactly like so we can see how far the derangement has traveled.

  338. 338.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Is pompous possibly parody troll confusing Joseph McCarthy with Eugene McCarthy, or mister could we use a man like Herbert Humphrey again?

  341. 341.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Loviatar:

    Today’s Democrats unfortunately have moved right to occupy the space that used to be Republican territory.

    Why do you think that was? Shits and/or giggles? Or because there ceased to be enough votes on the territory they used to occupy (mostly because white Southerners decided they’d rather harm black people than help themselves)?

  342. 342.

    Ben Franklin

    @Mnemosyne:

    Hey, I’m not the one claiming perfect recall of the time period. You are.

    Yes, your recollection as a zygote is not the issue and I never said I had perfect recall.

    But based upon your superior recollection of events before your time, it is evidently better for you to rely on snarkiness than to address the issue of mainstream democratic strategy.

  344. 344.

    liberal

    @geg6:

    Are you claiming that the NYT (who published without Ellsberg’s consent or knowledge) and a U.S. Senator are the equivalent of Julian Assange, probable rapist?

    Here’s what Wikipedia says:

    Daniel Ellsberg knew the leaders of the task force well. He had worked as an aide to McNaughton from 1964 to 1965, had worked on the study for several months in 1967, and in 1969 Gelb and Halperin approved his access to the work at RAND.[5] Now opposing the war, Ellsberg and his friend Anthony Russo[7] photocopied the study in October 1969 intending to disclose it. He approached Nixon’s National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger, Senators William Fulbright and George McGovern, and others, but none were interested.[5]

    In February 1971 Ellsberg discussed the study with New York Times reporter Neil Sheehan, and gave 43 of the volumes to him in March. The New York Times began publishing excerpts on June 13, 1971; the first article in the series was titled “Vietnam Archive: Pentagon Study Traces Three Decades of Growing US Involvement”. The name “Pentagon Papers” for the study arose during the resulting media publicity.[5][8] Street protests, political controversy and lawsuits followed.

    To ensure the possibility of public debate about the content of the papers, on June 29, US Senator Mike Gravel entered 4,100 pages of the Papers to the record of his Subcommittee on Public Buildings and Grounds. These portions of the Papers were subsequently published by Beacon Press, the publishing arm of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations.[9]

    That doesn’t square with your claims.

  345. 345.

    shortstop

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Eugene, Joseph, both of them better progressives than President Sellout McLetdown could ever be. If we have to eschew decency and root out communists to get single payer, I for one am all for it. That you are not proves your Republican corporatist bona fides.

  347. 347.

    Loviatar

    @Mike Lamb:

    He proposed a compromise solution that barely passed. Seems to me that he read the political landscape pretty well.

    It barely passed because he got rolled in the negotiations and barely did any leg work to get the votes. You know who I give credit to for getting Obamacare passed, Smash. Nancy Pelosi who went into the White house meeting with President Obama and Harry Reid and told them if this is was all they were going to get from Obama’s fucked up negotiations and Reid’s dithering vote counting, then they better put on your big boy pants and fight for it. She gets all the credit in my book.
    .
    If I didn’t think it was a fucking insult to her name I would call it Pelosicare in her honor.

  348. 348.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @FlipYrWhig: I’m not normally one to leap to the defense of the Old Confederacy, but there are a whole lot of Yankees, including many dependent on Social Security and Medicare, who operate under the strange illusion that the only reason they pay taxes is because of well, you know, I don’t have a racist bone in my body, and I know it’s not politically correct, but…

    When the NYT Sunday mag did that piece of Republican efforts at moderinizing, they included a focus group of Obama voters who said they could have been swayed by Romney, and one of them said welfare was a huge problem, and “if you have a baby, then you’re set for life”. The article didn’t mention the racial make up of the group, and I suspect they felt they didn’t need to, but they should have.

  349. 349.

    Anna in PDX

    I also think the chained CPI thing is stupid for Obama because it distracts from almost everything else he is currently trying to do. I joined my local OFA team a while back to specifically drum up excitement for the gun control issue and now everyone is talking about something else and criticizing Obama for it who should be helping him get the gun control bill passed through the Senate and donating to help his other agenda items that we are all on the same side about. This is a weird hippie punching distraction and those same hippies are on O’s side on his other issues.

    I just do not see how this helps him in any way, and of course Republicans have such stupid followers they can pivot on a dime and attack him from the left and will not pay for it nearly as much as a Dem would for similar rank hypocrisy. Cough cough Walden cough cough…

  350. 350.

    Ben Franklin

    I’m truly happy that our Founders did not embrace the notion of
    incrementalism in their quest for a Republic.

    Our currency would still have the Queen on it, but we’d have single-payer so we’d have that going for us.

  351. 351.

    Mike Lamb

    @Loviatar: He got rolled in the negotiations? Really? By whom? I thought as an 80’s/90’s Republican, this was the plan he wanted all along.

    Seriously, you’re pretty incoherent on this particular item at this point.

  352. 352.

    Emerald

    @liberal:

    The claim that on domestic policy Obama has done more than LBJ is LOL funny.

    Didn’t look at the list I linked to, didja? Granted, it takes some time to glance through it all.

    Obamacare, plus the stimulus was by far the most progressive bill ever passed, stuffed with progressive goodies (except for Social Security, but don’t forget that Social Security, when first passed, deliberately left out most African Americans, women, and other groups). Read that list for way more. And that’s just the first two years. But I grant you that Nancy Pelosi had a great deal to do with it all.

    LBJ comes very close, though. FDR is certainly the best, but he also had a bit longer in office and did not have an obstructionist congress to deal with. FDR’s problems were with the Supreme Court and the Southern Democratic senators and congresscritters.

    Obama is by far the most progressive president we’ve had since FDR. But then, the serious Left hated FDR when he was in office too. It was only after he died that they started to claim him as their native son.

    They’ll do the same with Obama. Watch.

  353. 353.

    liberal

    @eemom:

    I’ve always thought the comparison between Ellsberg and Manning was ridiculous, even when it was made by Ellsberg.

    Right. Who would I rather trust as an authority on this?

    Ellsberg himself, or someone who once claimed that Americans don’t have moral standing to criticize Israel ethnic cleansing because we ethnically cleansed native Americans?

    Decisions, decisions…

  354. 354.

    Loviatar

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Why do you think that was? Shits and/or giggles? Or because there ceased to be enough votes on the territory they used to occupy (mostly because white Southerners decided they’d rather harm black people than help themselves)?

    Hey, I hear the KKK and the immigrant bashing space is now open since the Republicans now have an outreach program. Maybe you Obots should get together and advocate that the Democrats move into that territory.
    .
    Some votes you don’t need.

  356. 356.

    Cassidy

    351 liberal Says: @Emerald:Somehow I’m intelligent enough to understand that you don’t measure these things by lists, but YMMV. DON’T YOU COME INHERE WITH YOUR FACTS AND LISTS AND I CAN HAZ PONY NOW!

    Just be honest.

  357. 357.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mike Lamb: As a Democrat, I tend to think of Clinton as having been, on balance, a pretty good president; I was and am aware of his strengths and weaknesses, immune to his peronal charms– the lip biting and pain-feeling drove me nuts, and I thought his big convention speech was nothing I hadn’t been hearing from Obama and every other Democrat for a very long time (though the ‘brass’ line was great, and long overdue from somebody), but people project a lot of affection at him as they remember the peace and prosperity of the pre-Bush era. I just can’t understand anybody feeling passionate loyalty about his presidency.

  358. 358.

    liberal

    @Corner Stone:

    He’s the one who never presented any options above $1T to Obama because he hated the idea.

    That is my recollection, but I don’t have the book in front of me.

    One really amazing thing about that book, though, is by its depictions, Geithner makes Summers look good.

  359. 359.

    John D.

    @Loviatar: OK, now it’s obvious you are a troll, you aren’t even *trying* any longer.

    In the PPACA negotiations, the Republicans were simply united against Obama and the proposed legislation. NONE of them voted for the final bill where it merged with the Senate version. Not one. (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2010/roll165.xml)
    None of the Republican Senators voted for it either. (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=111&session=1&vote=00396)

    So, where was the opposition coming from? Senate Democrats.

    Joe Lieberman.
    Max Baucus.
    Ben Nelson.
    Blanche Lincoln.
    Claire McCaskill.

    Learn your fucking history. Obama wasn’t the one holding this up, and not putting forth the effort. The intransigence came from Democrats – all 60 were needed to break the filibuster and EVERY FUCKING ONE of them felt like they were the special little snowflake that had to be appeased.

    Lieberman, Nelson, and Baucus are all on record saying that a public option or single payer meant that they would not vote to break the filibuster — and that would mean we don’t have the PPACA today.

    You can try to blame Obama for the shape of the PPACA all you want, but he’s not the problem. Those Senators are.

  360. 360.

    liberal

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I just can’t understand anybody feeling passionate loyalty about his presidency.

    IMHO he was a clever politician in a tactical sense, and very charismatic, but IMHO there’s no cogent argument that criticizes Obama and praises Clinton.

  361. 361.

    ricky

    @liberal:

    Somehow I’m intelligent enough to understand

    Maybe by today’s standards. But back in real Dem times
    (Between FDR and FDR…Before Obummer McIkenbama) you’d be just another dumbass.

  362. 362.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Loviatar: You know what makes progressive law and policy? Progressives WHO WIN ELECTIONS. Having 8% of the public whining about how more people should just do what they say already because NO FAIR! is not an ideal way to accomplish that.

  363. 363.

    Ben Franklin

    Learn your fucking history. Obama wasn’t the one holding this up, and not putting forth the effort. The intransigence came from Democrats – all 60 were needed to break the filibuster and EVERY FUCKING ONE of them felt like they were the special little snowflake that had to be appeased.

    The fuck you say. The tin-god complex is Legion, and their employment mortality is what they fear more than a collegial job-preserver like Obama. He hasn’t commanded respect so they show none. Maybe if someone took a balls-to-the-wall risk now and again…

    Wait..did I say that?

  364. 364.

    eemom

    @liberal:

    You are nothing but a smug-ass hypocrite on that old Israel argument, Little “Liberal”. You never have articulated an intellectually coherent response.

    And Ellsberg, at the time he jumped on the Manning-hero bullshit bandwagon, was a forgotten old has-been who was ecstatic to be relevant again. That’s why he did it, imo.

  367. 367.

    FlipYrWhig

    @John D.: Plus Landrieu. Plus the unenthusiastic Democrats like Carper and Webb and Warner and Begich and those Dakotas guys who kept wanting to do “co-ops” instead. But if a certain presidential someone had just tried harder, that would have just faded away, see, because it’s bad, and badness always just disappears if you turn your back on it like Freddy Krueger.

  369. 369.

    Mike Lamb

    @Ben Franklin: Wait…so he just needed to be the alpha dog? Show them he’s the big swinging dick by “taking a risk” and suddenly things change? Or will they respect him as they proceed to vote no and/or water down the legislation?

  370. 370.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Ben Franklin: Yes, because there’s nothing more respected in politics than taking risks that end in failure. Like how Clinton by not getting healthcare reform passed got everyone excited to try again soon to pass a much better version. You know, leadership.

  371. 371.

    Anna in PDX

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, I don’t really go for all this inside baseball that spends more time labeling people as a PUMA or whatever than engaging their arguments anyhow. If someone is against chained CPI maybe they are just arguing in good faith that they think it’s a bad policy and a weird political distraction that does not get Obama any points (except from the totebaggers, but who cares, and obviously I don’t agree with Carville who is just trolling).

    I remember trying to figure out the whole PUMA thing back when a bunch of blogs I used to read went off the deep end because of Hillary/Obama in 2008, they are nutjobs sure, but there is about 5 of them in the entire country and I would not automatically assume that all 5 of them are here arguing with you.

  372. 372.

    NR

    @John D.:

    You can try to blame Obama for the shape of the PPACA all you want, but he’s not the problem. Those Senators are.

    Right, because the President of the United States has no power whatsoever to convince three Senators to support overwhelmingly popular policy.

    I hear this excuse over and over again and it’s bullshit every time.

    The reason we didn’t get a public option is because Obama cut a secret backroom deal with the hospitals and the insurance companies to kill it, just like his secret backroom deal to kill drug re-importation. This was confirmed by multiple sources, but people would rather blame those eeeeevil Democratic Senators even though it’s bullshit.

  373. 373.

    Ben Franklin

    @FlipYrWhig:

    How the fuck do you know they would end in failure?

    You do know the definition of insanity is repeating the same behaviors while expecting another outcome?

  374. 374.

    Anna in PDX

    @Mnemosyne: What is with this waste of time generational debate? I hope I never hear the word “boomer” again, and I was born in 1968, but it is pointless to level charges at entire generations.

  376. 376.

    lojasmo

    @Suffern ACE:

    Chained CPI is certainly not radical, nor is it liberal. I think it is seen as a moderate proposal (suggested by Simpson-Bowles, etc)

  377. 377.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Ben Franklin: Precisely. There aren’t very many, are there? And that’s because there aren’t really that many progressives in the electorate. Which is why it’s kind of pointless to stomp our feet about how politicians _should_ be more progressive. “Should” in a moral-ethical sense, sure!

    As to the larger point, yeah, if racists stop voting for you, good, fuck ’em. But then you really do have to replace the racist vote with other voters, and that might be management-class social liberals who like balanced budgets and running government like a business and all that other treacly bullshit. But, you know, if candidates who sound like that beat candidates who don’t, maybe there’s a reason for it, having to do with the actual public mood rather than the mood of the public we’d wish to have.

  378. 378.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Ben Franklin: In politics, the downside from failure is extremely bad. Failure doesn’t lead to future success, it leads to more failure. That’s why politicians don’t tend to undertake quixotic crusades. Again, when you game out these “fight harder” scenarios, you also have to factor in the possibility of fighting harder _and losing worse_.

  379. 379.

    Ben Franklin

    I can see the risk-takers in Congress and the WH occupying a foxhole.

    Congress; That machine-gun roost is picking off all our guys.

    POTUS; I can’t tell you what to do, but I think someone should go up and lob a grenade.

    Congress; You go first.

    POTUS; I’ll form a commission to study.

  381. 381.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Mnemosyne:

    I think you vastly misunderstand how young Democrats view things like the 1968 Democratic Convention and how the whole party fell apart in the 1960s and 1970s, allowing the corporatists to take over.

    Not just the younger Dems. I’m old enough to remember the 60s too and my take is pretty similar to what you’ve staked out as the “young Dems” position.

    It really comes down to how do we read the collapse of the Democratic Party as the post-WW2 Establishment, and the rise of the GOP led by Nixon and Reagan to take over that position.

    Some folks look back at that period, see the Establishment as a sort of monolithic object which was doing evil, and conclude that we didn’t smash it hard enough.

    Others prefer to view the Establishment from that byegone era as a complex coalition of divergent interests, actors and cross-cutting agendas. As a consequence of this latter point of view folks like me have decided to retroactively revalue and better appreciate the Democratic Party portion of the 60s Establishment as being a greater force for good than almost anybody on the Left thought at the time (c.f. Perlstein’s rehabilitation of Humbert Humphrey’s reputation for example), not least of all because the Republicans were and are worse. That last qualification matters a great deal and IMHO it isn’t just a lame excuse for Democratic faults and wrong-doing, it is a well grounded historical judgement based on what we now know with the benefit of hindsight after 3+ decades of conservative rule.

  382. 382.

    Ben Franklin

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Was Pelosi taking a futile risk when she gave everything she had to push ACA?

    My suggestion is that success has many fathers seeking a share of childcare.

  383. 383.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @FlipYrWhig: case in point: Bill Clinton, the Dragon Slayer of certain imaginations, was “the incredible shrinking President” after heatlh care failed, I remember him angrily insisting he was relevant to an interviewer around that time. There were lots of other factors in the great realignment of ’94, obviously, but the health care definitely put a taint on Clinton. And that was in an economy that was, if not yet booming, far stronger than the one Obama was dealing with in 09, and the broad economy is one of the greatest determinants of a president’s relative strength.

  384. 384.

    lojasmo

    @Loviatar:

    Ended DADT, allowing openly gay Americans serve in the military.

    Obamacare is DECIDEDLY not a republican bill. The REPUBLICAN HR has voted almost forty times to repeal the damn thing. If you call it a republican bill again you will have cemented your status as a terrible Sophomore debate team member.

    Ended the ten year war in Iraq, and within another year will have ended a SECOND war.

    Decreased the nuclear stockpile.

    Stopped defending DOMA

    The list goes, but you’re clearly obtuse to have clicked the above links provided and read the damned things.

    FOAD.

  385. 385.

    ricky

    @Anna in PDX:

    Unlike sexual orientation, people chose what year they were born in. And if they didn’t object to some social demographer’s artificial definition of the characteristics of people born within chosen dates, they at least should have lobbied harder for more exact science, like astrology.

  387. 387.

    Suffern ACE

    So is the role of the “Public Option” in this debate being played by current CPI or is it being played by lifting the FICA tax limit?

  389. 389.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Ben Franklin: Republican fails; ‘Let’s get up and try again’.

    Some truth to that, though you won’t find a Republican to advocate for the privatization of social security in front of camera after ’06. But Republicans did spend decades building up to the point they’re at now, they understand the importance of off-year and state elections. Too many Democrats declared Obama a failure six months after they voted for the first and (they declared to the absolute delight of Joan Walsh and her ilk) last time. I’d love to know how many of our NadeRites can name their state legislators.

    I still think you’re troll and a goof, but you accidentally approached an important point.

  391. 391.

    Mnemosyne

    @Anna in PDX:

    It was in response to Raenelle’s complaint about “hippie bashing” and how this all reminded her of the 1960s, so not really meant to be an overall comment about generational differences.

    I do get annoyed easily by ex-hippies like the ones who were my friends’ parents. The ones who went to Woodstock and then became stockbrokers and housewives who lectured me about how much better the 1960s and how much more idealistic they were than You Kids Today while voting for Reagan to screw everything up for us kids.

  393. 393.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ben Franklin:

    Democrat fails; “SOB, poor me. I made a bad”

    . Other Democrats gather to kick and beat the failed one
    Rachel Maddow runs a special report about how much the failed one sucks
    . Jon Chait writes a think piece about what the failure means to the doomed future of the Democratic Party
    . Internet commenters say they never liked the failed one in the first place and we should have elected Dennis Kuchinich instead

    Republican fails; ‘Let’s get up and try again’.

    . Other Republicans close ranks to defend the failure as a secret success
    . Rush Limbaugh touts the bravery of the failure for standing up against the Demoncrats
    . George Will, David Brooks, and Bill Kristol all write multiple columns about how awesome the failed Republican is and how his idea was the one that will save us all
    . Internet commenters say the failed Republican is the bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being they’ve ever seen in their life, and ban anyone who says otherwise

    But, hey, if Barack Obama can’t single-handedly fix every one of the problems created by 30+ years of Republican rule, then what use is he, amirite?

  394. 394.

    Patrick

    @NR:

    Right, because the President of the United States has no power whatsoever to convince three Senators to support overwhelmingly popular policy. I hear this excuse over and over again and it’s bullshit every time. The reason we didn’t get a public option is because Obama cut a secret backroom deal with the hospitals and the insurance companies to kill it, just like his secret backroom deal to kill drug re-importation. This was confirmed by multiple sources, but people would rather blame those eeeeevil Democratic Senators even though it’s bullshit.

    Obama did what Bill Clinton failed to do. Hell, Obama did what Jimmy Carter refused to even try to do. So before you think Obama is so bad, I assume you would agree that both Clinton and Carter were even worse. And I assume you will refuse to support Hillary Clinton for President…

    And since you seem to think Obama is worse than Hitler, here’s something for you: Obama wanted to close Gitmo. However, the Democratic senate that you seem to think is flawless refused! Hell, the “progressive” favorite Bernie Sanders even refused to close Gitmo.

  395. 395.

    Keith G

    @Cassidy: Two things come to mind. First, your best argument (or summary thereof) needs to be presented no matter what you perceive to be the quality of the other argument – lest it appear you have nothing germane to say. Which is another option….say nothing.

    Second, “The other side is over-emotional and childish” and other name calling is a waste of time that diminishes whatever persuasion you seek. If you think their behavior is underwhelming, model better behavior.

    Sorry for the soapbox, but if I spend time reading here, I like to know more than when I started and I already know how to insult others.

  397. 397.

    Loviatar

    Raise your hand if like what President Obama is doing on Gun Control. (me frantically waving my hand)

    Can anyone point to an instance where Obama did similar outreach on Obamacare?

    Can anyone point to an instance where Obama did similar outreach on the Dodd-Frank Act?

    Can anyone point to an instance where Obama did similar outreach on getting a Director for the Consumer Product Safety Commission?

    Can anyone point to an instance where Obama did similar outreach on getting Federal judges appointed?

    ———–

    I could go on but you get the drift, he got his (reelection) so fuck the party and the country.

  399. 399.

    MomSense

    @Emerald:

    My grandma was one of the people left out of the first iteration of SS but heaven help you if you said one bad thing about FDR to her. She’d give you the what for!

  401. 401.

    Ben Franklin

    @SatanicPanic:

    :

    I admire YOUR persistence.

    I understand your attempt at derogation, but projection makes my argument.

    You tack right more than you do Left, and it shows that denial is not a river in Egypt.

  402. 402.

    NR

    @Patrick:

    Obama did what Bill Clinton failed to do. Hell, Obama did what Jimmy Carter refused to even try to do.

    Neither Clinton nor Carter tried to force everyone in America to give money to private corporations. Even the most right-wing Republican we’ve had in office never tried to do that.

  403. 403.

    eemom

    For those keeping score at home, the Carville kiss of death on chained CPI now has us relitigating, inter alia, the ACA, the Clinton presidency, the Southern Strategy, the 1960s, the boomer-GenX-GenY feud, and Daniel Ellsberg.

    I cannot overstate how much I love this blog.

  404. 404.

    Suffern ACE

    So I guess its been decided that as far as social security goes, its raise the FICA tax or nothing.

  405. 405.

    geg6

    @liberal:

    Huh? So you are claiming that Wiki says that the NYT and Gravel didn’t publish the Pentagon Papers? That’s not what I read. Sheehan did not tell Ellsberg if or when he would publish and when he finally did, he only published a very small portion of them. And Gravel put them out there so that if the NYT lost in SCOTUS, they would still be out there and he, as a U.S. Senator, could not be legally sanctioned for it.

    The only reason Ellsberg got off was the incompetence of the Nixon administration’s prosecution, leading to a mistrial.

    In any case, since the Pentagon Papers was a history and classified as sensitive, it is not quite the same thing as what Manning opened up to Julian Assange. I am not in favor of either leak, by the way. If Ellsberg really had wanted to do something about his Vietnam history project, he had plenty of senators and representatives he could have gone to beyond Henry Kissinger and Fullbright or even “progressive” hero, McGovern. Looks like Mike Gravel might have been a good choice, but for some reason he decided the NYT was a better choice.

  409. 409.

    Patrick

    @NR:

    Neither Clinton nor Carter tried to force everyone in America to give money to private corporations. Even the most right-wing Republican we’ve had in office never tried to do that.

    You are right. They didn’t. They preferred to leave millions and millions of Americans uninsured and without adequate medical coverage.

    Again, thank you President Obama for ACA!

  410. 410.

    Loviatar

    @eemom:

    For those keeping score at home, the Carville kiss of death on chained CPI now has us relitigating, inter alia, the ACA, the Clinton presidency, the Southern Strategy, the 1960s, the boomer-GenX-GenY feud, and Daniel Ellsberg.

    No, it has some of us pulling our hair saying guys your boy ain’t all that. In fact your boy is fucking us over.
    .
    Like I said upstream, the frustration for me is in the lack of awareness by the Obots in how unDemocratic (notice the capital letter) Obama’s policies are.

  411. 411.

    geg6

    @Ben Franklin:

    I’m truly happy that our Founders did not embrace the notion of
    incrementalism in their quest for a Republic.

    Which goes to show how little history you know.

  412. 412.

    NR

    @Patrick:

    Again, thank you President Obama for ACA!

    Yep. Thank you President Obama for forcing us all to pay money for CEO bonuses and corporate profits instead of medical care. People are going to die because of that decision, but that doesn’t matter! We can all take comfort in the fact that Aetna’s CEO will be able to buy a third mansion in the Caymans thanks to you!

  417. 417.

    EthylEster

    @Omnes Omnibus: recall that at the time construction workers thought beating up anti-war protestors was good fun. those guys invented hippie punching (the literal kind).

  419. 419.

    Loviatar

    @NR:

    They’ll never see it. They never see that Obamcare is not even half a loaf, it just a straight give away to the insurance companies.
    .
    My fear is that the whole thing collapses due to the cost and intricacy and we get a see we told you so from the Republicans.
    .
    My bigger fear is that it works in some half-ass way and we’re stuck with it for the next several generations.
    .
    We had single-payer at a minimum and he traded it away for his need to be seem as compromising. Nancy Pelosi traded away her speakership for crap.

  420. 420.

    Patrick

    @NR:

    Yep. Thank you President Obama for forcing us all to pay money for CEO bonuses and corporate profits instead of medical care. People are going to die because of that decision, but that doesn’t matter! We love it! Because all we care about is sticking it to firebaggers!

    I am going to die because I will make an insurance payment (that I had to pay ANYWAY before ACA was even a law)???

    With your logic then, anybody with insurance may die prematurely just because they have insurance?

    By the way, do you think there might be any chance people were dying before ACA because they had a pre-existing condition and weren’t allowed preventative medical care?

    I am curious; were you covered by insurance before ACA? It seems that most people on the Republican side that are against ACA already had insurance and never had to worry about pre-existing conditions. “I got mine, screw you”. I wonder if it is the same mindset on the people on the left who so willy-nilly complain about ACA.

  421. 421.

    geg6

    @Mnemosyne:

    And you have just described why I hate hippies. The real one, not the ones they made up just in time to punch them for opposing the Iraq War.

    I was their younger sister and I remember it all vividly. I hate, hate, hate being lumped in with them, the selfish idiots. I hereby declare anyone born from 1957 to 1964 to be the Lost but Way Smarter Generation.

  422. 422.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    We had single-payer at a minimum and he traded it away

    are these morons getting stupider or just louder?

  426. 426.

    geg6

    @Ben Franklin:

    So, brilliant one, how long did it take from the very first broadsides against the British until the Constitution was ratified?

    If that isn’t incremental, I don’t know what is. As it is, you’re expecting Obama to fix over forty years of “progressive” idiocy and Republican criminality in less than five years? Seems to me, he’s accomplishing liberal goals at a quicker pace than almost anyone, especially politicians, in American history.

  427. 427.

    Loviatar

    @Suffern ACE:

    Fucking you over how?

    Where are the liberal judges?

    Why are the Banksters making more money know than before the crisis yet no one has gone to jail.

    Why is Guantanamo Bay still open?

    Why is he fucking with Social Security?

    Why Doesn’t CSPC have a Director?

    Why did it take a bunch of WHITE kids in Connecticut (over 500 died in Chicago last year, his hometown) getting shot before he decided to address Gun Control?

    What has he done on climate change?

  428. 428.

    Patrick

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    are these morons getting stupider or just louder?

    I don’t know which world they lived in. I recall from the ACA debate fired up tea baggers, with real passion arguing their case. On the other hand, there was no similar groundswell of support for single payer. I have no idea where they come up this stuff. Rewriting history again…

  429. 429.

    Mnemosyne

    @geg6:

    I hereby declare anyone born from 1957 to 1964 to be the Lost but Way Smarter Generation.

    Sadly, my older brother (born 1963) keeps a photo of Ronald Reagan on his desk, so I’m not sure the “way smarter” can be included.

    I’m apparently fairly anomalous for a GenX-er — that moron Jonah Goldberg is much more demographically representative of my generation than I am.

    We’re going to have to rely on the Maisie Kate Millers of the world to save us all, but I think they may be up to the task.

  431. 431.

    Betty Cracker

    @Loviatar:

    We had single-payer at a minimum and he traded it away for his need to be seem as compromising.

    He stole my bible and shot my dog too. The bastard!

  432. 432.

    Suffern ACE

    @geg6: I’m trying to think about what the maximum was. I thought single payer was the goal. What was there beyond that?

  433. 433.

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ

    @Loviatar:

    We had single-payer at a minimum

    What was the maximum, pray tell? Personally I was really hoping to dine on the liver of a health insurance company’s CEO, with some fava beans and a nice chianti, but I don’t think that was ever really in the cards.

  434. 434.

    Mnemosyne

    @geg6:

    So, brilliant one, how long did it take from the very first broadsides against the British until the Constitution was ratified?

    Don’t forget, the US Constitution is Take Two. The original government was formed by the Articles of Confederation, and those were such a disaster that a constitutional convention had to be called to start over from scratch.

    But incrementalism sux, yo.

  435. 435.

    Loviatar

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Do you know the difference between Universal Healthcare, single-payer and Obamacare?
    .
    I’m seriously asking, because you made a snarky comment, but I don’t think you know the difference. But thats par for course with an Obot.

  436. 436.

    geg6

    @Mnemosyne:

    I only know one Republican my age and he’s an asshole from my youth that shows up on my FB page to make hilarious Obummer jokes just like Loviatar and Liberal and all the Firebaggers here today.

    I always just think of when our swim team got sick of his shitty attitude and hung him by his jockstrap from the pool’s flag pole. And then another friend from those days comments on my FB page and tells him to go run it up the flag pole. He disappears for weeks on end after that.

  437. 437.

    Patrick

    @Loviatar:

    Why is Guantanamo Bay still open?

    Ask Bernie Sanders who refused to close it.
    Ask Amy Klobuchar who refused to close it.

    Why are you blaming Obama for this? He is the one who wanted to close it.

    In a rare, bipartisan defeat for President Barack Obama, the Senate voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to keep the prison at Guantanamo Bay open for the foreseeable future and forbid the transfer of any detainees to facilities in the United States.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/20/senate-votes-to-block-fun_n_205797.html

  438. 438.

    Loviatar

    @Patrick:

    Ask Bernie Sanders who refused to close it.
    Ask Amy Klobuchar who refused to close it.

    Why are you blaming Obama for this? He is the one who wanted to close it.

    Yeah, its everyone’s fault but Obama.
    .
    Gee, I guess the only perk of being president is that you get to cruise around in cool vehicles with a “1” nomenclature.

  439. 439.

    SatanicPanic

    @Mnemosyne: Hey, Gen X leans Democratic now.

    In terms of political affiliation, Gen X-ers leaned Republican by 5 percentage points in 1990 (34 percent to 29 percent Democratic), but in 2008 they favored the Democratic Party by 7 percentage points (33 percent to 26 percent Republican)

    We are not as sucky as we were back in our youth. Take that Winston Churchill

  440. 440.

    Ben Franklin

    @geg6:

    I think the bar was a little higher for the Colonials.

    But you guys go ahead and put Obama’s head on Mt Rushmore.

  441. 441.

    Anna in PDX

    @Mnemosyne: Fair enough. I have some parents’ friends whom I dislike, too. I also hear older people be curmudgeonly about younger people and I get that you were responding to provocation.

    I could wish that the entire labeling/judging thing go by the wayside, though, when it comes to which 20 year period people were born in. 20 years is a really long time and a lot changes.

  442. 442.

    Redshirt

    I try to be sympathetic to the Firebaggers, for I assume, ultimately, they support Democratic candidates for office.

    However, FSM, do they make it hard. I’ve come to the conclusion that they are either:

    1. Incredibly Naive
    2. Fairly dumb
    3. Trolling

  444. 444.

    Anna in PDX

    @SatanicPanic: I think the divide is more urban/rural than it is generational. I have so many acquaintances in my own age group from my high school in southern coastal Oregon, who are horribly rightwing to the point of insanity, but the people I know from my 2 years in a Portland high school are great. Not quite as liberal as me, but who is.

    then again there are some friends from the rural area who are surprising liberal on a number of issues. You just never know. The longer I live the more I think my easy categorizations are useless.

  445. 445.

    SatanicPanic

    @Anna in PDX: You’re totally right. I just get annoyed when people start in with “I live through the 60’s and…”- it’s the political equivalent of “I saw The Who in 1971…” aw, here we go again

  446. 446.

    Hill Dweller

    @Loviatar: Having read your nonsense in this thread, I now know you have no more insight than anyone on this site. Stop pretending you do.

    Single-payer was never making it through congress. Hell, it wasn’t making it through Pelosi’s House. The medicare expansion and increased VA benefits were the closest thing we were getting to single payer.

    Again, the Republican filibuster meant the resulting legislation was only going to be as progressive as the least progressive member of the Democratic caucus. People like Ben Nelson(who demanded the Cornhusker kickback for his vote), Blanche Lincoln, Max Baucus, renowned rat fucker Joe Lieberman, etc. were never voting for single payer. Hell, Max Baucus tried to single-handedly undermine the legislation with his stalling.

    Without the Republican filibuster, it would have been a far more progressive bill.

    I’ll say it again, the Republican filibuster has been the biggest hindrance to progressive legislation. Obama has faced more obstructionism than any President in the last century(probably more).

    The vast majority of the blame should be placed on Republicans.

  448. 448.

    Patrick

    @Loviatar:

    Yeah, its everyone’s fault but Obama.

    I’m still at a loss for why you, or anyone else for that matter, would blame the one person who actually tried to close it.

    It makes no sense. Why aren’t you saying as nasty things about Sanders as you are about our African-American President? After all, you are the one who complained that Gitmo is open. Bernie Sanders voted against closing it. Or is there perhaps something else at play here that has nothing to do with Gitmo whatsoever…

  449. 449.

    Mike Lamb

    @Loviatar: Before we delve into the nuances of universal healthcare, single payer and Obamacare, perhaps we need to get a bit more basic. Do you know how the Constitution works?

  451. 451.

    ricky

    The 500 mark used to mean Hall of Fame before commenters began swinging at Republicans getting elected as Democratic Presidents. But you can always telling the users by their acronym size.

  453. 453.

    lojasmo

    @Loviatar:

    President Obama if dropped in any decade from WW2 to the 2000s would be considered a Republican president by the policies he advocates. And yes I know he is black.

    Because republicans from that era pushed downsizing of nuclear armaments, insuring 30 million uninsured Americans, ending wars in the Middle East, allowing gays to serve openly in the US military, and advocating gender pay equity and for same sex marriage.

    Right?

  454. 454.

    Mnemosyne

    @Loviatar:

    Gee, I guess the only perk of being president is that you get to cruise around in cool vehicles with a “1″ nomenclature.

    When it comes to passing legislation, um, yeah, welcome to the real world. That’s what the whole “separation of powers” thing is about.

    Contrary to what you seem to hope and believe, the president is not a king or an emperor or a dictator. He’s the head of one branch of the government and the official head of state on ceremonial occasions. His powers are limited by the Constitution, by design.

    The fact that the Republican-majority House and Senate deliberately chose not to put any reins on George W Bush does not change those constitutional realities.

  455. 455.

    Bill Arnold

    @Elliot Rosewater:

    Obama knows the GOP can’t say yes so there is no danger in offering the moon.

    Pretty much in a nutshell. The chained CPI inclusion is probably almost entirely tactical. (I still believe that chained CPI will be seen in the fullness of time as an unforced error, and bad policy if implemented. And the effect on the 2014 midterms is hard to predict but could be bad.)

    Also, the Republicans don’t fully understand yet that Cleek’s Law is strongly predictive. Or more likely, they understand but don’t have the party discipline to break the habit.

  456. 456.

    Ben Franklin

    Heh. Happytime commences with the anecdotal sociologists sampling one another’s birthyear. It’s as much fun as Scrabble.

  459. 459.

    lojasmo

    @Loviatar:

    We had single-payer at a minimum and he traded it away for his need to be seem as compromising. Nancy Pelosi traded away her speakership for crap.

    This has been roundly disproven. You are a liar.

  462. 462.

    different-church-lady

    @Redshirt:

    Worse than Nixon and Bush put together, times two. Amirite?

    If you cross polenated Nixon and Bush, and then grafted Hitler’s limbs onto the seedling, you still would be two orders of magnitude less evil than Obama.

    Why? Because Obama is currently the president, and those other cats ain’t.

    Welcome to the internet — here’s the place on the desk your forehead will be hitting.

  463. 463.

    different-church-lady

    I’ma say the one and only thing this thread is proving conclusively is that some of you are too damn dumb to trust with the franchise.

  466. 466.

    Loviatar

    @Mnemosyne:

    When it comes to passing legislation, um, yeah, welcome to the real world. That’s what the whole “separation of powers” thing is about.

    Contrary to what you seem to hope and believe, the president is not a king or an emperor or a dictator. He’s the head of one branch of the government and the official head of state on ceremonial occasions. His powers are limited by the Constitution, by design.

    The fact that the Republican-majority House and Senate deliberately chose not to put any reins on George W Bush does not change those constitutional realities.

    .
    .
    Lets compare the last three presidents:

    Bush the younger got significant policies passed with a Democratic House and Senate.
    .
    Clinton got significant policies passed with a Republican House and Senate.
    .
    Obama got a Republican healthcare plan passed with a Democratic House and Senate. And not much else.
    .
    Like I said previously, Obama may be a great politician, but he is no great shakes at governance.

  468. 468.

    cat48

    Obama hates the Budget. I didn’t see him live on Wednesday, but I did see his Sat. Address. He couldn’t really get into it. He was apologetic. Not the way he acts and talks when he really approves of something.

    As far as everyone throwing a fit about it, email, nasty twittes, etc.; he gets that all the time. Part of being prex.

  469. 469.

    different-church-lady

    @Loviatar: Right. Because, you know, in no way whatsoever did the behavior of the opposition party change since 2008.

  470. 470.

    Loviatar

    @different-church-lady:

    Right. Like he didn’t sweep into office on a landslide with an expanded House and Senate. Along with an energized base and an opposition which was demoralized and in disarray.

    What did we get for that; a Republican healthcare plan.

  471. 471.

    Mnemosyne

    @Loviatar:

    Bush the younger got significant policies passed with a Democratic House and Senate.

    Uh, when did Bush have a Democratic House and Senate? The House was Republican until 2006. So was the Senate. What significant policies did Bush get passed in 2007-2008, the only time period when he had to deal with a Democratic House?

    Clinton got significant policies passed with a Republican House and Senate.

    Yep, that repeal of Glass-Steagall was definitely significant. I guess we differ on whether it was a good policy, given that it almost caused a worldwide depression, but it was certainly significant.

    Obama got a Republican healthcare plan passed with a Democratic House and Senate. And not much else.

    Interesting to see that DADT and Dodd-Frank don’t exist in your world. Nor does the Consumer Credit Protection Act.

    Oh, wait, none of those did the world as much good as repealing Glass-Steagall or signing DOMA, two of Bill Clinton’s spectacular achievements. It’s true, Obama can’t possibly aspire to affect the world economy the way Clinton did when he repealed Glass-Steagall.

  474. 474.

    Baud

    @Mnemosyne:

    That’s the same as Dodd Frank — it’s one big statute.

    ETA: I was confused because you mentioned it as two things:

    Interesting to see that DADT and Dodd-Frank don’t exist in your world. Nor does the Consumer Credit Protection Act.

  475. 475.

    Mnemosyne

    @Baud:

    I was trying to point out Wall Street reform and consumer protection as separate things — I had forgotten they were jammed into a single piece of legislation.

  479. 479.

    Redshirt

    Can’t we all fucking agree that the Republican Party is EVIL FUCKING INCARNATE and band together to stop them?

    Squabbling amongst ourselves does not help this cause!

  483. 483.

    Loviatar

    @Redshirt:

    Can’t we all fucking agree that the Republican Party is EVIL FUCKING INCARNATE and band together to stop them?

    Not when the Obots stance on everything is go along with every jack shit policy Obama recommends or else.

    ———–

    Squabbling amongst ourselves does not help this cause!

    What is the cause? I used to think it was to promote Democratic ideals, however after 5+ years of Obama stroking, the cause seems to have morphed into just getting Obama off.

  487. 487.

    NR

    @Patrick: People are going to die because money that could have and should have been spent on their medical care is going to make insurance company CEOs and shareholders richer instead. All thanks to Obama and the Democrats.

  489. 489.

    TheWatcher

    @Loviatar: Guess what, I have a News Flash for you: Clinton was as bad or worse. NAFTA, Welfare reform, Most Favored Nation Status for China, all fairly devastating for the middle class in America. And you know what? I still prefer that type of politician to the the type that blundered in office from 2001 to 2009. Remember, OVER 50 MILLION VOTE REPUBLICAN EVERY TIME. Or maybe you could just run Ralph again, that worked out so well last time….

  491. 491.

    Loviatar

    Oh, so Republican positions seem meaningful to you now, and worthy of consideration?

    Nope. But then again that wasn’t your question. Your question was about the cause, which I equated to Democratic ideals (correct me if I’m wrong). I informed you that after 5+ years of Obot stroking I’ve seen the cause morph into whatever Obama wants lets all fall in line because:

    1) Republican bad
    2) ???
    3) Democratic success
    .

    I’m sorry maybe for some of the brain dead thats enough, for myself, I like those questions on #2 explained.
    .

    P.S.
    Chained CPI is going to shit all over the party in 2014 and beyond, but according to the Obots, Obama doesn’t have to run again so it will be all okay.

    1) Chained CPI, but Republican bad
    2) ???
    3) Democratic success

  493. 493.

    Redshirt

    @Loviatar: My cause is stopping Republicans. That’s it, seriously. And that’s why I’m an Obot, because he’s changing the game, and is gonna put those mutherfuckers in the ground (in the long term – once Texas turns Blue).

  494. 494.

    Loviatar

    @TheWatcher:

    I’d almost forgotten the Nader invective, hadn’t heard it in awhile. Thanks for bringing it to the party, I was getting so tired of the firebagger chant.

  495. 495.

    Corner Stone

    @Redshirt:

    And that’s why I’m an Obot, because he’s changing the game, and is gonna put those mutherfuckers in the ground (in the long term – once Texas turns Blue).

    That has nothing to do with Obama. That’s silly.
    Texas will turn purple in 2020 and then over the 10 years after that it will possibly turn blue-ish if the legacy D party bosses start dying off in time.

  496. 496.

    Loviatar

    @Redshirt:

    My cause is stopping Republicans.

    Then dude we’re fighting for different things. We may currently travel on the same bus, but we’re going to end up going in different directions.
    .
    My cause is Democratic ideals. Thats the difference between myself and most of the Obots here. I believe more in the ideals than the party or the man, both can fail you.

  497. 497.

    Mnemosyne

    @NR:

    I love how NR never bothers to read his own links:

    For nonprofit insurers, the cliff bill created winners and losers. The winners, who got their plans approved in 2012, included the likes of Coordinated Health Plans of Ohio, which got a $129 million loan in October, a farmer’s union in Colorado, the Freelancers Union in New York, and a culinary health fund in Nevada. The losers – those who were still inking the final details of their plans to submit to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services – are the co-ops in the remaining 26 states whose plans were “torpedo(ed)” and “blindsided,” in the words of NASHC president John Morrison.

    Though I love how he’s magically transformed the cuts forced by the Republicans’ fiscal cliff bill into a problem with the original law. You’ve got to be a special kind of stupid to confuse the two, but NR manages it every time.

  498. 498.

    Mnemosyne

    @Loviatar:

    My cause is Democratic ideals. Thats the difference between myself and most of the Obots here. I believe more in the ideals than the party or the man, both can fail you.

    Ideology can never fail, it can only be failed!

  499. 499.

    Corner Stone

    @Loviatar: If GWB were still in office and proposed C-CPI (with included proposals) every motherfucker here would be pissing themselves to get their hate on for this proposal.
    Kind of like other items that get the nonchalance treatment. “Meh” seems to be the sentiment of the day if the current WH puts it on the table.

  502. 502.

    Redshirt

    @Corner Stone: Sure, a minority President has nothing to do whatsoever with encouraging other minorities from engaging the political system. Sure, a peaceful conciliator under constant attack by hateful racists has no influence on people long discriminated against. Sure, a UN Peace Prize winning President for 8 years has no influence on a generation of future voters who see in him the future, which is diversity.

  505. 505.

    Corner Stone

    @Redshirt: This is all irrelevant in Texas.
    And let’s see your backup. What percentage of AA vote did Clinton, Gore or Kerry get? Hispanics for same group of candidates?
    And what’s a UN Peace Prize?

    Obama doesn’t walk across water and he doesn’t control demographics. AA and hispanics are traditional majority D voters and they will be again for the next 20 years, no matter if Obama had ever been born in Kenya or not.

  507. 507.

    Loviatar

    @Mnemosyne:

    Ideology can never fail, it can only be failed!

    .

    Let me get this straight, you’re equating my belief in Democratic ideals to a blind faith in ideology. I can see how the dim witted can make that leap, so let me give you the definitions I use.

    Democratic ideals – a rhetorical phrase meaning either personal qualities or standards of government behavior that are felt to be essential for the continuation of a democratic policy.

    Ideology – Ideologies are systems of abstract thought applied to public matters and thus make this concept central to politics. Implicitly every political or economic tendency entails an ideology whether or not it is propounded as an explicit system of thought.
    .

    My ideals drive my ideology not the other way around.

  508. 508.

    different-church-lady

    @NR:

    People are going to die because money that could have and should have been spent on their medical care is going to make insurance company CEOs and shareholders richer instead.

    Hi there. Can we have a little chat?

    I had a medical condition a couple of years back. It was serious. I probably would have died from it eventually.

    The Massachusetts health care law — y’know, the one they modeled the ACA on — bailed my ass out. I would be just flat ass broke right now without it.

    OK, thanks, bye.

  509. 509.

    NR

    @Mnemosyne: I love how you missed the entire point of the article.

    Will these fragile start-ups even have a chance of survival? The federal government’s continued whittling away at the resources that the cooperatives might be able to access now and down the road isn’t a good omen. Let’s face it: These nonprofit cooperatives weren’t meant to be, as Consumer Union’s Chuck Bell noted in an interview with NPQ, “a robust substitute for the public option in any case.” But the fact that even this part of the ACA has been defunded – with little widespread response from the nonprofit sector, which at the time was consumed with its focus on preserving the maximum benefit possible from the charitable deduction – “shows a lack of willingness to explore alternatives to private coverage.”

    I guess “reading comprehension” isn’t high on the list of Obot skills either.

  511. 511.

    different-church-lady

    @Loviatar:

    Let me get this straight, you’re equating my belief in Democratic ideals to a blind faith in ideology.

    No, he’s making fun of you. Duh.

  512. 512.

    NR

    @different-church-lady: Good for you. Other people won’t be so lucky.

    The ACA takes billions of dollars that could be used for medical care and forces us to give it to CEOs and shareholders instead.

    People will die as a result.

  515. 515.

    different-church-lady

    @Loviatar: I gotta admit, “SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU’RE MAKING MY BRAIN HURT!” gets kinda tiresome after a while…

  518. 518.

    MomSense

    @handsmile:

    Everybody is talking about the hermit. Apparently the warden who arrested him was only the second human he had been in contact with in 27 years. It is something out of a Stephen King novel.

    We should have a mini-balloon juice meet up in Maine this summer! At the very least on an open thread I’ll post some of the locals’ tips for places to visit.

  521. 521.

    Corner Stone

    @Redshirt:

    Yeah but Obama got more of the white vote too, because of people like you, and your fellow Firebaggers. Making your complaining so frustrating!

    I have to hand it to you. It’s impossible to argue with you using that kind of logic.

  522. 522.

    Mike Lamb

    @NR: Leaving aside the fact that ACA requires a certain percentage of $$ to go actual care, are you arguing that ACA is making things worse in terms of money that could be spent on health care being funneled to non-health care items? If so, how?

    Maybe ACA doesn’t change the profit driven paradigm that creates most of the issues, but it would take some serious work to argue that ACA makes it worse.

  525. 525.

    different-church-lady

    @Mike Lamb:

    Maybe ACA doesn’t change the profit driven paradigm that creates most of the issues, but it would take some serious work to argue that ACA makes it worse.

    Ponies do not come in half increments.

  528. 528.

    NR

    @Mike Lamb: It makes it worse by giving the current system the force of law. People are now forced by law to pay for CEO bonuses and corporate profits. I don’t consider that a good thing. It’s sad that people here do.

  529. 529.

    MomSense

    @Loviatar:

    Um he addressed a joint session of Congress. Went to a bunch of districts with key votes, had numerous press conferences, had an entire organization of volunteers working for over a year (he joined conference calls with us on numerous occasions btw) and worked behind the scenes with Senators and Reps.

    I talked to Sen. Snowe about it directly. Oh–and it was Baucus who was hell bent on destroying the public option. At one point it was Snowe who was trying to keep it alive (it was a convoluted version to be sure) with much encouragement from the President. She told me this herself.

  532. 532.

    amk

    @Loviatar: Yeah, the kenyan muslin was so bad in his first term that people voted for him for the second time in a shitty economy and with a billion dollar CU oppo dump on him.

    Thank fsm for smart voters unlike stupid & clueless firebaggers with ODS.

  534. 534.

    angler

    hey, I’m 533! First off, everybody and every type of bagger I love you. Wait, strike that, go fuck yourself! There, that’s in keeping with the thread.

    Second, back to Carville and his assessment of the chained CPI gambit. Carville isn’t mocking Obama here, I think he’s flacking for the budget, saying look at how mad it’s made the base and how much credit it’s getting in DC. He does in Carville fashion–i.e. a bit self absorbed and tendency to assert his own superior insight over Obama’s and his critics–but he makes the case and tries to get buy in from his DC audience.

    Will it work? Will this strategy get the budget passed, or failing that will this appeal to the center drive the Repubs to the wall? Lets give it time.

    Now back to go fuck yourselves you all suck, a variety of bags over all of your heads, the reason we didn’t win by more or lost by so much was all everyone here’s fault and another ting, back then when . . . wha? . . . . . moohahahahaha!

  536. 536.

    mai naem

    Good lord, I saw this thread this AM but couldn’t comment. Then I checked in a few hrs later and it was up to 300+ and now its closing in on 600+.

    Anyhoo, I was disappointed big time when the AHCA sausage was being produced. I think Max Baucu$$ caused more damage to the bill than any Republican. He intentionally dragged it on so that he could literally capitalize on it by collecting big $$$ for his campaign. He’s now getting his big fat fingers into the tax bill. I wish Schweitzer would run against this mofo because Schweitzer would not even lost the seat. I look at the AHCA as a skeleton and the muscle and some fat will get added on down the road just like Medicare and SS.
    What I’m concerned about more is that there’s going to be a destructive rivalry between Obama and Clinton wings in the Democratic party which will affect how blue current red/purple states become. And Carville ain’t helping with his hippie punching.

  537. 537.

    horatius

    @MomSense: Bubba did leave a giant mountain of turds with his welfare reform, his constant triangulation and adopting republican tropes for democratic campaigns. .

    Maybe it’s time his wife cleaned it up.

    That’s America for you. Get the black man to clean up your shit. And when he fails, thanks to a clock that’s running out, pass it on to a woman.

  538. 538.

    horatius

    @lojasmo: Obama never advocated for gay marriage.

    He was dragged kicking and screaming to it. You can thank Joe Biden for forcing his hand.

  539. 539.

    AnotherBruce

    @ThatLeftTurnInABQ: At the time (the 60s) It was not all that obvious that the Republicans were worse. It was the Democrats that entrenched us in the bloodbath known as Vietnam. All the Hippy punching that I see going on in this thread never seems to mention that war. It’s like the giant elephant in the thread. The hippies didn’t start that war, but they did organize protests and marches that convinced enough people to(eventually) bring it to a halt. For that they have earned the eternal enmity of a whole lot of patriotic hippie punchers and people like geg6, who seems to have some strange fantasies for what s(he) believes hippies turned out to be later in life.

    It’s kind of sad that we’re still fighting these old 60’s battles, it probably gives comfort to the billionaire overlords that we are.

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