Fuck anyone who’s ever peddled the bogus vaccine-autism link. People are dying:
Right now, in the UK, the outbreak of measles has reached epidemic proportions. Nearly 700 people have come down with the highly contagious disease in south Wales, and that number may double. Measles can cause a nasty rash and high fever, and in children can cause ear infections, encephalitis, and death.
Yes, death. Measles can kill.
So right now would be the worst of all possible times to give Andrew Wakefield precious front-page space on a newspaper to promote his incredibly dangerous antivax nonsense. Yet that’s exactly what the UK newspaper The Independent did.
[….]Don’t believe Wakefield. Don’t believe Jenny McCarthy. Don’t believe Age of Autism, or the Australian Vaccine Network, or any of those so-called “vaccine injury” groups. Talk to a real, board-certified doctor, and get their recommendation about vaccination.
Central Planning
My wife’s school had some whack-job come in and talk (only to teachers at least) about all natural healing and the whole anti-vax thing. Chiropractors can fix anything.
I think maybe that one was an angry chiropractor… maybe the doctor degree doesn’t count.
ETA – Frist!
Cacti
This is one of those rare cases where “both sides” actually do it.
There are far too many woo woo anti-vaxers on the left, and all of them deserve a punch in the junk.
DougJ
@Cacti:
Also, where nonpartisan centrists are good. Never heard a Tom Friedman-reader spout this stuff, it’s Randoids, Jesus Freaks, and Nader fans.
Mark S.
@DougJ:
Why don’t you suck off some totebaggers? Fucker.
MikeJ
There was an interview with Temple Grandin in yesterday’s Times magazine. She seems to believe in a (possible) link, but only for vaccines that don’t exist any more.So even if it were true in the past (which I don’t buy) it’s unsafe to avoid vaccines now.
SatanicPanic
Fuck these anti-vaxers. And fuck “natural medicine.” If I’m sick I’m going to the doctor, I don’t need some hippie’s advice.
Mark S.
I didn’t actually mean that last comment. I thought it was funny.
aimai
My cousin, now 48, was born deaf thanks to the fact that her mother, a doctor, caught German Measles while she was pregnant. Deafness associated with high fever and unvaccinated children is a major problem in third world countries.
If you read the anti-vaxx stuff in the US its a weird combination of right wing and crunchy granola left wing and, underlying it, a huge fear of the modern world, of science, and of the impossibility of controlling everything and protecting the family/hearth from an uncaring outside world. Its such a psycho-drama you can’t persuade anyone with mere logic or numbers or even a list of deaths. They are just too well defended against it. I think because at bottom there is a tremendous despair and a feeling of being out of control: out of control of the air, water, climate, politics, corporations–if you are liberal you feel out of control w/r/t guns and your conservative relatives, if you are conservative you feel out of control w/r/t atheists and public schools and liberal hollyweird. The end result is a retreat to what seems like a haven in a heartless world: the isolated home and community of like minded people.
I had a dream the other night in which someone asked me to define “social construction of knowledge.” In the dream I answered “you know how if you don’t know whether something is true or false you call up a friend who you think is likely to know and ask them? That’s the social construction of knowledge.” The anti vaxx people are enmeshed, as we all are, in a tight little circle of self reinforcing beliefs which, in this case, amount to ignorance. But you can’t break them out of it easily.
aimai
@aimai:
Sorry, that should be “social construction of reality” not “social construction of knowledge.”
askew
The ignorant anti-vaxers have done real harm. But, what pisses me off more is that schools are allowing children to come to school without being vaccinated. When I was in school, if you didn’t have vaccinations in order, you were sent home until you had them period. No exceptions. Now, everyone thinks their child is some special snowflake who is exempt from the rules.
Omnes Omnibus
But evolution leads to eugenics, Treblinka, and frankencrops, therefore I can sell you this rock that repels tigers.
Maus
@2: “Cacti Says:
This is one of those rare cases where “both sides” actually do it.
There are far too many woo woo anti-vaxers on the left, and all of them deserve a punch in the junk.”
Well, the extreme left homeschooling vegan anti-fluoridationists and antivaxers who believe in homeopathy tend to vote Ron Paul more than Kucinich. They consider themselves leftist, but if they think the birchers have some good ideas and decide that Ron Paul is the one to “bring peace”, they’re just another right-wing fauxhippie to me.
WereBear
@askew: It’s free-riding, health version.
If everyone else in the school gets vaccinated, then one special snowflake is not going to mess things up. That was the idea behind allowing religious exemptions… they were supposed to be rare. Though let’s be honest; it’s still putting that kid at risk.
There are risks to vaccinations; they need to be paced with the immune system development, and in cats there’s a growing recognition of vaccine-related sarcomas. And of course if you screw up production you are going to be in a world of hurt.
But the benefits far, far, outweigh the risks.
Maus
@5: “She seems to believe in a (possible) link, but only for vaccines that don’t exist any more”
Sad to see this ignorance spread by someone who people listen to. None of her belief is based on science, every bit of it is based on anecdote.
http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2013/04/15/temple-grandin-is-wrong-on-vaccines-and-autism/
Davis X. Machina
@askew: When that happens, it’s usually because there’s a state law that lets it happen. Focused, noisy minorities pass legislation, right over the prostrate forms of apathetic, diffuse minorities. And it’s more common at the state level.
c u n d gulag
When, oh when, will there be some vaccination against “TEH STUPID?”
askew
@WereBear:
There shouldn’t exceptions for religious reasons because it puts other kids at risk. It’s one thing to allow religious exceptions for things that don’t hurt anyone else but not when it can cause children to get sick and die.
Maus
@13: “If everyone else in the school gets vaccinated, then one special snowflake is not going to mess things up.”
This is ignorant.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/herd-immunity/
“There are risks to vaccinations; they need to be paced with the immune system development”
There is no medical evidence that “schedule” is related to any complications. You’re continuing to regurgitate antivax claims that have no basis in reality.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-infection-schedule-vrs-the-vaccination-schedule/
@16: We can’t even innoculate Balloon-Juice from nutjob antivaxers, it seems.
Valdivia
I really just don’t get the anti vaccers. When I lived in Atlanta I was surrounded by a bunch of them, all to a one students at the Chiropractic College. Didn’t leave a good impression (well neither did the fact that my ex husband was one of them)
ETA: @Central Planning: I see you got to the Chiropractic heals everything insanity first. Glad I am not the only one who has seen it first hand.
askew
@Davis X. Machina:
It’s because the religious nutjobs are so organized at lobbying the state houses. So, their minority viewpoints get written into law hurt the vast majority of the public who is too lazy to lobby state houses.
The Moar You Know
@askew: And they’ve got the law on their side, which is why my wife’s school is now getting a student per month sent home with whooping cough. They’ve had more cases this year than since the vaccine was originally developed.
The laws need to change, the “religious” exemption needs to be taken away, and we gotta stop letting kids who aren’t vaccinated in schools. Period. 100%. No exceptions.
Napoleon
The anti-vaxers are wack jobs. Good thing I do not have a kid because if I did and one of them spouted their BS in front of me there would be nearly 100% chance I would punch them.
Boohunney
@Maus: You forgot “chemtrails….”
Eric U.
my mother was the first anti-vaxer I ever knew. She still took us to get vaccinated though. She had a theory that my autistic brother was just fine until he got sick right after being vaccinated. I think this sort of thinking is pretty normal, but spreading it is reprehensible. It often doesn’t become clear that a child has autism until after they get vaccinated.
My brother was not diagnosed with autism until decades later. It was not a common diagnosis when he was a kid
shortstop
I have a Munchausen-by-proxy relative who’s a Lymie. I want to shoot myself in the head every time she speaks, but at least she’s not putting everybody else’s kids at risk like anti-vaccers are.
maurinsky
“Dr.” Mercola just released an infograph about the dangers of fluoride. I have a friend who is crunchy granola, and she passed it on to all her Facebook friends.
My favorite thing is when people say they don’t want vaccinations because of “all the chemicals”. Oh no, not CHEMICALS!
Roger Moore
@aimai:
I think that last part is the real underlying problem. Some people desperately want to be able to control everything in order to avoid danger; my impression is that the more parts of their lives people can genuinely control, the more likely they are to be unreasonably worried and scared about the parts they can’t control. So the things that are genuinely out of anyone’s control, like cancer and autism, are really terrifying to the kind of well-off suburbanite who doesn’t have enough else to be afraid of. That makes them really vulnerable to any kind of pseudoscientific claptrap that claims to protect them against the last few things they can’t protect themselves from. The big irony with the anti-vax stuff, of course, is that by trying to defend themselves against an imagined danger, they’ve left themselves vulnerable to a real one.
geg6
I asked a “friend” who is anti-vax if she’d be fine if I took her kid to a minefield to play Frisbee.
She didn’t understand.
Which tells you all you need to know about the intellectual capacity of anti-vaxers. Every single one I’ve ever known have been sicko fundies or lefty woo-woo and crystal types. IOW, idiots.
path to perdition
@The Moar You Know:
In my neck of the woods, they were allowed their exemption but were excluded from school entirely during a declared epidemic. Approximately 90% of the exempted families changed their tune when it looked like their special snowflake was going to be their problem 24/7. We let them back in school after they saw the light and had their snowflakes vaccinated.
Mnemosyne
I know we have a couple of people who occasionally post here who have children with immune system problems that mean that, for the most part, they can’t be vaccinated because they will experience serious medical complications.
The problem is, by making common cause with anti-vaxxers whose children don’t have those kinds of medical problems, they’re actually putting their children more at risk by reducing herd immunity. If every child who’s medically able to be vaccinated is vaccinated, that protects the few who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons. If everyone is allowed to choose whether or not to vaccinate based on what Jenny McCarthy or their church says, that means that kids who aren’t able to be vaccinated are more likely to catch measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, etc. from those unvaccinated kids.
Pongo
Jenny McCarthy body count website: http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html
WereBear
@Maus: What on earth is wrong with you? There’s a reason we don’t dump every vaccine into the bloodstream before the baby goes home, that’s all.
The Moar You Know
@Mnemosyne: I feel for them. If their kids are that fucked up, they don’t need to be in public school anyway.
Mnemosyne
@The Moar You Know:
There are kids out there who are immunocompromised in some way and can’t be vaccinated without endangering their lives. Are those kids supposed to go without an education because of their medical issues?
Mnemosyne
@The Moar You Know:
Yeah, let’s ban kids with AIDS or other immune system diseases from public schools — there’s no moral or ethical problem with that! We’re just, um, protecting them from the other kids!
Omnes Omnibus
@The Moar You Know:
WTF?
WereBear
@Mnemosyne: A medical reason is certainly more sensible than “religious exemption.”
Apparently, a great deal of these religiously oriented, detrimental rulings were done in the heyday of the Christian Science Movement; which was birthed at a time when medicine was not nearly as advanced as it is today.
I understand it is withering on the vine because medicine does work far better than prayer.
About time we cleared out these dangerous laws, then.
Gex
The celebrities that push this link are really lucky they had responsible adults to protect them from these diseases. I wish today’s kids were so lucky.
@Mnemosyne: Exactly. Pro tip: “100%, no exceptions” is almost always going to be bad policy. Really bad policy.
Maus
@WereBear: The vaccination schedule is tailored to childrens’ immune systems. There’s no need to regurgitate antivax claims in a thread devoted to noting how horrible their cause and proponents are, it shows a questionable grasp on the facts.
path to perdition
@Omnes Omnibus:
Have you been inside a public school lately?
There are medically fragile children being educated there. Every child is entitled to a free and appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment possible.
jibeaux
Some of the lefties with it have this association of natural = good, created in a lab = bad. I’ll take any vaccine over poison dart frog venom, myself. A woman I heard about from my SIL who wouldn’t treat her kid’s asthma with anything but natural remedies, which BTW, don’t work. That’s just child abuse.
John S.
I’m the parent of a 5 year old boy on the autism spectrum (PDD-NOS), and I never believed this bullshit about vaccinations. Gotten into a lot of disagreements over the years with folks because of holding that position.
All I know based on my anecdotal experience is that my so was born with autism. He came out of the womb that way. He was our first, so we didn’t know at the time, but once we had his neurotypical sister it was extremely obvious to us that was the case.
WereBear
@Maus: Enlighten me. What “anti-vax” claims did I regurgitate?
Pongo
The thing that always bothers me in press related to Wakefield is that little emphasis is given to his financial motive in perpetrating this fraud. Not only was he in the paid service of an attorney who planned to sue vaccine manufacturers, he had his own competing vaccine in the works and he (and his wife) had worked up a business plan for ‘diagnosis’–consisting of subjecting special needs kids to totally unnecessary invasive gut biopsies–that they projected would enrich them by $28,000,000. The guy is a garden variety sociopath, not a healthcare crusader.
Gex
@WereBear: The problem has not changed. The religious today are just as interested in carving out a special place for their faith.
I was reading about the guy who was arrested when he wouldn’t leave his husband’s bedside at the request of his partner’s family in MO. The men had a Power of Attorney agreement.
The most disgusting thing I read? The hospital is under no obligation to honor that PoA if it “violates their religious or moral beliefs.”
There is no less push for these laws now then there was then. Even if, like the example above, the exemption seems to completely override the rule of law.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gex:
Rules, by their very nature, must be general. In order to be fair, exceptions must be considered. The challenge for rule makers is to craft a general rule that accomplishes its stated task fairly for the vast majority of people and then to allow exceptions where appropriate while ensuring that the exceptions do not swallow the rule.
Mnemosyne
@Maus:
Not really — the schedules are tailored to the assumption that people will lose or change their health insurance quite frequently, so the vaccinations need to be done in as few doses as possible so parents don’t decide to skip one because they would have to pay out-of-pocket for the doctor visit. That’s just a practical calculation that most doctors take into consideration.
One of my friends decided to spread her son’s vaccination schedule out a little out of an excess of caution (worried about possible genetic immune system issues) and her doctor had no issues with it. But, then, we have very good health insurance at our workplace, so she didn’t have to worry that she was going to have to pay full price for the doctor visit just for the next vaccination.
jrg
@aimai: This post reminds me of some of the excuses made for conservatives, like how they might believe nonsense, but that’s because of *fill in some bullshit about the moral roots of liberals and conservatives here*.
The bottom line is that if you buy into the anti-vax claptrap, you’re a loon… And if you buy into it because you feel a lack of control over the modern world, you’re a fool, too. How much control do you think they’d feel if their kid had polio?
Omnes Omnibus
@path to perdition: Why are you arguing with me?
The Moar You Know
@Mnemosyne:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Your pearl-clutching on this issue is utterly ridiculous. A child who is so badly immunocompromised as to not be able to handle any vaccination is a child who’s invariably going to die when exposed to the billions of pathogens carried by the thousands of kids he/she will come in contact with over the years in the public school systems. These kids can be taught at home.
Ben Franklin
Mercury is the pandemic. It’s in everything, so why not amplify the profitology of the Pharms by allowing multiple dose ampules preserved with mercury. It can’t hurt. Those still-forming brains are resilient and can withstand the additional onslaught of toxins in their vaccinations piled on all the other shit we’ve allowed into our water, air and food.
If they just withheld the mercury, we wouldn’t be talking about this, would we?
So is it about vaccines, or the failure to rein-in the FDA and CDC?
Because injury is hard to prove, and anything that kills you quickly (disease) must be stopped so that society can continue producing jobs and cash without interference. Anything that kills you more slowly, can’t be that bad for you.
Schlemizel
Both sides have their loons. I’d like to think that the big difference is on the left we point & laugh at our loons while on the right they give them positions of power and visibility.
If someone can point to an anti-vax loon that sits as chair (or co-chair) of a Congressional sub committee I might change that opinion but till then I will simply say that Jenny is not part of my party
Xenos
@Eric U.:
In order to be safer, vaccines are split up into multiple doses. This has the effect of taking kids in every twelve weeks or so for vaccines. Whatever date it is when parents realize something may be wrong, there is likely to be at least one vaccine given in the previous weeks.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Moar You Know: What if the child can’t have one particular vaccine? Or two? As long as the vast majority of kids are vaccinated, herd immunity should be effective to protect those who cannot be vaccinated. The key is to make sure that the exceptions to vaccinations are rare and truly necessary.
I think your take on this is heartless and unnecessarily cruel.
dollared
@The Moar You Know: You are oversimplifying. Medical issues are not so black and white. Period. And yes, every child should have a place in the public schools if they can be reasonably accommodated. It’s – it’s the law. And it’s a good thing.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne: Mostly. A lot of these schedules were developed in the early 20th century (the agency to oversee immunizations was created in 1902). Rural populations often had to travel some distance to reach the doctor and town doctors didn’t have enough traffic to store and maintain perishable vaccines. The golden age of immunization was during the depression – and a lot of people couldn’t manage repeat doctor visits. There was no health insurance yet, and the federal government was aggressively trying to get these diseases knocked down. The combination vaccines were specifically arranged as a cost saving/compliance effort. If you gave three shots at once, you were more likely to get all three to the whole population than if you did three individual shots. And it was cheaper. But the schedule was set around when kids became susceptible to various diseases/when their systems could handle it, with as many shots put together as possible to minimize doctor visits.
Truth is, we haven’t really modified the schedule much since then. There’s no real need to. We still have poor people. We still have compliance issues.
Ben Franklin
@dollared:
. It’s – it’s the law. And it’s a good thing.
There you go.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Ben Franklin: Are you feeling OK, Ben? I don’t see Obama in there anywhere.
Ben Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sometimes it’s kind to be cruel, and cruel to be kind.
Ben Franklin
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Oh, he’s in there.
Randy P
@Maus: Wait. Why is it ignorant to believe in herd immunity (the point of the “one special snowflake” comment) and how does your linked article on herd immunity bolster your view that only ignorant people believe in herd immunity?
Pongo
Oh good lord, please say this isn’t true:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/06/what-happened-man-mmr-panic
Having been run out of the UK, Wakefield relocated to the US to take advantage of an even larger population of scientifically illiterate simpletons. Now he’s getting a reality TV show–of course.
? Martin
OT: but fuck Scarborough for calling Obama a hypocrite for paying 18% tax rate, when Obama repeatedly said he should be paying higher rates.
Ben Franklin
@Valdivia:
I really just don’t get the anti vaccers.
Maybe it’s because of your innate trust in authority.
Capri
The irony is that it is that not vaccinating is taken seriously – to the extent that it is – only because they are very good at eliminating the disease one can vaccinate against. We have forgotten what it’s like to live in a country where there is a good probability that your child would catch measles, mumps, or polio. Folks aren’t living with the consequences of those diseases – with their high mortality and long-term morbidity.
If we had a good old fashioned polio epidemic like we did in the 1950’s, the number of parents unwilling to protect their kids would fall to near zero.
My parents were so afraid of polio, that I received the vaccine straight from one of the developing scientists in my milk bottle before it was labeled for human use.
It’s the same thing with the selling of raw milk – if your chance of catching TB or undulant fever from milk was, say, 30% or greater – very few people would drink it. And the same people who rail against big brother government for not allowing its sale, never acknowledge that it was big brother government that made the milk supply safe enough to get away with drinking raw milk.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ben Franklin: Are you simply trying to be clever, or are you backing the idea that a few individuals who cannot handle certain vaccinations should not be allowed in schools?
Original Lee
@path to perdition: A reasonable work-around! I love it!
Rekster
I thought everything on the internet was true!
Ash Can
@The Moar You Know: Actually, that’s not true. Furthermore, these and other special-needs kids have been integrated into the regular school system because it’s been proven that it’s worse to exclude them. I agree that the number of non-immunized school children should be kept to an absolute minimum — specifically, to the highly unusual cases where it’s clear that the immunizations really would be detrimental, and that accounts for an infinitesimal fraction of the population. But as others have said, herd immunity means these kids are not without protection themselves.
Central Planning
@Ben Franklin:
You know current vaccines do not contain mercury or thimerosal, right? Of course not.
Mike E
@c u n d gulag: It burns, literally.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@? Martin: It’s the “If he wanted to pay more he could just write the government a check” argument. There are two type of people that believe this:
1. Wants the benefits of government without paying for it themselves.
2. Doesn’t believe that government does anything, so only the people who want to pay for it should.
Joe’s part of group 1 and makes his salary by duping the people in group 2.
Ben Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
As usual you get way too focused on the minutiae without regard to the overall picture.
IOW; you are a tiny nitpicker
Mandalay
@Dougj
Indeed. Also too, fuck Tony Blair who insisted that the little people should get their children immunized, but repeatedly refused to say whether his own child had been immunized:
You will never read a slimier statement from a politician. Blair willfully poured gasoline on the flaming MMR debate in Britain with his refusal to speak clearly, when all he had to say was: “Yes, our son received the MMR vaccine, and your children should as well”.
In the entire history of fuckups and disasters caused by politicians, this is the top of the list IMO, because it was totally unnecessary, caused real harm, and had no redeeming characteristics. Blair thought the privacy of his baby’s medical records was more important than the health of Britain’s children. So fuck Blair with a rusty pitchfork.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ben Franklin: Oh, never mind. Bring on the next small pox epidemic, right? At least we won’t have had the terrible government telling us what to do.
Chyron HR
@Ben Franklin:
Did the MTV lady also order you to think that?
chopper
@Maus:
yeah, that’s exactly what the person you were replying to said.
seriously, you’re getting pissed at someone who doesn’t disagree with you. and yes, vaccines do have some risks. they’re very low, and they are far outweighed by the benefits. not everyone who says something slightly differently than you do is a nutjob.
Ben Franklin
@Central Planning:
Yes, they ostensibly removed thimerosal from infant vaccine (not because it was dangerous, but only because some believed so) but did you know your flu shot has it? I didn’t think so.
sb
I remember 16 years ago considering not vaccinating my child because of the autism/vax link. I’m glad we chose vaccination and more than a little ashamed I considered not vaccinating him in the first place.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
There’s a majority strain within Chiropracty that is very hostile to vaccination, and believes most illness is caused by “fluxions” of the spine. The chiropracty professional association (their equivalent of the AMA) campaigned against the polio vaccine in the 1950s. I imagine it was deeply embarassing to chiropracty that allopathic medicien was eradicating a disease that affected the spine, when chiropracty was completely useless.
Unfortunately, despite the deep links between chiropracty and quackery, you can see a chiropractitioner without a referral from a GP, but you can’t see a physiotherapist without a referral. So many people with musculoskeletal issues from work go to chiros. And that’s been a real vector for antivaccination quackery.
Ben Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
sans blind allegience and naive trust, what?
Chyron HR
@Central Planning:
“As usual you get way too focused on objective reality without regard to what I read on the internet somewhere.”
ranchandsyrup
The anti-vaxers that latch on to the theories because they don’t want to be “at fault” for the potential genetic causes of the diseases are the ones that chap my hide.
BruceFromOhio
@askew: Whoa, not here. You can’t even register if you don’t have a record of vaccinations. They don’t want to hear it.
Central Planning
@Ben Franklin: The CDC says yes for multi-dose vials, but not the single dose vials. But you knew that too, right? Of course not.
Here’s the CDC Link
I know, heretical to actually cite something.
canuckistani
My daughter is allergic to the pertussis vaccine. Thanks to everyone with vaccinated kids for herd immunity.
chopper
@Central Planning:
quiet, he’s rolling. and by that i mean ‘on drugs’.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ben Franklin: If I ask you to clarify for me something that you said, I am focusing on minutiae?
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Temple Grandin got it wrong on MMR. As the Aetiology blog linked above noted, she may have confused it with the pertussis vaccine, that did go from a whole-killed cell (which had serious problems with vaccine-related injuries in batches where the pertussis cells were not all killed) to a subunit vaccine: the switch to a subunit vaccine pretty much eliminated the adverse effects from pertussis vaccine.
Ben Franklin
@Central Planning:
I’m happy to know you’ve educated yourself, but you don’t mind the mercury in your vaccinations, right?
Faux News
@Ben Franklin: And you are a fucking clueless douchebag that just got his/her posting blown out of the water. Don’t let facts get in your way.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Single-use flu shot formulations (e.g. flumist) don’t have thimerosol.
Besides, I thought the current ad-hoc hypothesis amongst antivaxxers was alumina vaccine adjuvants? Can’t flog those chelation quack therapies without a metal being involved.
chopper
@Ben Franklin:
so it’s down to one optional vaccine, and the autism rate hasn’t dropped. that’s plumb wacky.
Raven
@Herbal Infusion Bagger: What the fuck, you don’t believe your spine can be “corrected” by jerking it around???
Roger Moore
@The Moar You Know:
I’m all for ending stupid exemptions, but there are genuine reasons for not getting vaccinated, like allergies to components in the vaccines. I don’t see why having an allergy should effectively deny a child a public education.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ben Franklin: Did you know that the vaccinations themselves are frequently made from the disease? The government is asking you to inject yourself with a disease. Evil fuckers. Oh, yeah, don’t even ask what is involved in chemotherapy. Hint: poison.
Ben Franklin
@Herbal Infusion Bagger:
That is correct! So do you ask for the single-dose ampule? Or do you get flu shots?
Original Lee
The first anti-vaxxer I ever met was Original Spouse’s aunt. She was totally convinced her son’s epilepsy was caused by the measles vaccine, and therefore did not allow any of her other children to get vaccinated, except for tetanus. She was OK with the tetanus vaccine. We had a long argument about it when I was pregnant with my oldest child. I never could understand her position.
Then her oldest grandchild was born blind because her daughter caught German measles while pregnant. Her daughter was babysitting a neighbor’s children (another anti-vaxxer) before the kids showed any symptoms, and now the aunt is hot to trot on suing the neighbor. The neighbor is looking at filing medical bankruptcy because one of the kids was sick enough to have been in the hospital for two weeks, three days of which were in the ICU. She’s also mad at me because I basically told her “I told you so.”
Original Daughter caught the measles from her MMR vaccine. She was one sick puppy for almost a week – her fever was 103-104 even with the maximum possible doses of Tylenol & Motrin and sponge baths. I shudder to think what would have happened if she had caught it naturally.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Omnes Omnibus: There’s also that ominous plot by the government to keep you “hydrated” by making you ingest explosives.
Ash Can
@sb: And this highlights precisely why the leaders of the anti-vax movement and their enablers in the mass media are so nefarious. Responsible parents very much want to do what’s best for their kids. The anti-vax message gets to them and it sounds reasonable, so they’re persuaded that it’s true. Jenny McCarthy and her ilk belong in the same circle of hell as Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the Iraq-war peddlers.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus:
How much do you want for the rock?
Another Halocene Human
@MikeJ: Well, she’s wrong.
But anyway, why are you trampling on their FREEDOM! DougJ to enact a little messy natural selection.
Besides, as any anti-vaxxer will tell you, deaths and complications from endemic diseases are more natural and wholesome than deaths and complications that occur post vaccine (therefore propter hoc, read it on Safe Minds so I know it’s so).
Ben Franklin
@chopper:
. that’s plumb wacky.
Yeah. Cuz global warming doesn’t exist if it leads to anomalous cold . The triangulation of toxins in our environment makes some pretty wacky effects on certain DNA types.
Some are more sensitive to mercury so it exhibits earlier and more profound. Mercury is everywhere, you know? But it’s not just mercury, so lets just ignore that particular toxin and load everyone up. Do you get flu shots? Single-dose?
Herbal Infusion Bagger
The problem is when the concentration of special snowflakes obviate that herd immunity. It’s no coincidence that pertussis outbreaks (mostly) originate in Waldorf schools, because Waldorf education philosophy is full of anti-vaccine woo-woo.
Measles is really contagious: it’s R0 (number of secondary cases to an index case) is ~20, so if you drop below 95% vaccination rate, herd immunity will only retard, not prevent, outbreaks.
If it wasn’t for Wakefield, we’d probably have eradicated measles over five years ago. It doesn’t have an animal host, and it’s much harder for it to mutate its antigen to develop vaccine resistance.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: How many bitcoins do you have?
Villago Delenda Est
@chopper:
“Rolling” pretty much in the same sense that Bluto Blutarsky was when talking about who bombed Pearl Harbor.
ShadeTail
@The Moar You Know:
Your pearl clutching is even more ridiculous. They “can” be taught at home, you say? Yes, and they also can be taught in public schools. And the schools know how to deal with it. You are ranting that certain children should have their rights violated just because you are personally uncomfortable if they aren’t.
scav
High concentration lead injections however, especially self propelling ones, those are ok, but possibly anecdotal / historical injections of minute scarey metals? eek! ? Care to think their reaction if one pushed a birth to slaughterhouse high-intensity testing program for monitoring just what was injected or got into meat annimals? Or tested the food-chain exhautively? Odd little wacked out list of fears they cower before while blithely ignoring others.
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Halocene Human:
Well, I’d go with the more wholesome death, obviously. Just as I’d prefer to be tortured by an “authoritarian” regime as opposed to one of those really bad “totalitarian” regimes. Especially those derived from the works of Karl Marx.
Another Halocene Human
Last year a big study came out showing the influence of maternal obesity and metabolic disorder on autism incidence and language delay.
The “Safe Minds” are the minds of the Autism Moms, cosseted from the realization that yes, their genetics and lifestyle contributed to their child’s autism (so what) and that their child is going to be autistic for the rest of their life.
Safely protected from the awful truth, they are free to fling blame like howler monkeys on completely unrelated parties (as one pundit said, parties with deep pockets, as in the US it’s possible to get paid for alleged vaccine injuries, since the court doesn’t investigate causality, and there’s only a causal link in a few cases–and I’m not talking about autism!!), and to also believe in mirages such as a “complete cure” paying the DAN! “facilitator” to beat their child in a way not sanctioned for themselves to do by the state (after all, the child has autism and they probably have early intervention going on, so beating your child senseless would send YOU to jail, however, if you send the child to an “expert” to do it, usually nobody sees so much as the inside of a squad car).
I wonder if some (only some) of the “violent autistic” cases occur because of these sorts of savage beatings. Brain injuries to certain parts of the brain are correlated to interpersonal violence.
Villago Delenda Est
@scav:
Well, of course they are! They’re just as mother nature intended!
Ben Franklin
@Another Halocene Human:
Single dose vaccine for you?
scav
@Villago Delenda Est: e.g. Corporate Death Panels Good –Government Death Panels bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad oh my golly eek.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Quote:
There is no evidence to support the association between mercury poisoning and autism.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1442-200X.2007.02303.x/abstract
Ben Franklin
@Herbal Infusion Bagger:
No evidence….
All righty then. Single-dose for you?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@ShadeTail: I realize it’s fun to argue with Moar, but, huh? Are you arguing that it’s OK if a bunch of kids get sick because someone has chosen to not get their child vaccinated against something on the premise that it violates their religious belief or based on an unfounded fear? I want every kid to get an education, but there are requirements when you want to be in a group setting, such as having certain vaccinations. If you don’t like those requirements, you either need to eradicated diseases, or find another place. Your choice is putting other kids at risk.
Ben Franklin
I’m bettin’ most of you wear suspenders and belts to hold your pants up, and you look both ways before crossing a one-way street. So those of you who actually get flu shots, will now make sure it’s single-dose. But there’s no contraindications from preserved vaccine, right?
Another Halocene Human
@WereBear: The big scare with vaccines happened with the fever disorder spread with the swine flu vaccine. It’s kind of interesting as they now have a clue what caused it. It wasn’t the vaccine part but how they manufactured it (which introduced a contaminant).
Vaccine manufacture is evolving and hopefully we will have better, safer vaccines as time goes on. To be clear, vaccines are much, much, much, MUCH safer than the alternative.
Also, too, some children have immune disorders or for whatever reason a certain vaccine won’t “take”. These children are extreme risk because of vaccine objectors, otherwise healthy children whose parents think they’re too special to vaccinate.
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
This is a pretty good example of how the rights of individuals are often in conflict, and why we have governments to sort all that out.
If you can’t live in a situation where you have to give a little to get along, then Somalia is the place for you!
red dog
@ranchandsyrup: Right on. Their genes cannot possibly be at fault or how old they are at mother or fatherhood while “fast tracking” which was more important than family.
Chyron HR
@Ben Franklin:
This is your new thing? Shitting yourself and screaming “SINGAL DOES” over and over again?
And yet somehow people got the idea that anti-vaxxers are stupid. Go figure!
Svensker
@Eric U.: .
I have a friend with an autistic child who firmly believes the vaccinations caused the problem. She is otherwise bright, sane (well, relatively…) and wonderful, but she is convinced her child was damaged by bad vaccine. Heartbreaking.
Another Halocene Human
@Valdivia: A chiropractor told a friend of mine (and had her believing this!) that disease was caused by feces impacted in the colon. I asked her if she’d ever heard of a colonoscopy?! Christ.
In funnier news, her health insurance got sick of paying the chiro and told her to get massage for her back pain, lolol.
Oh, and the chiro was giving her temp disability tags and waiving the copay (hmm, fraud and fraud). Now there’s a way to keep a patient.
liberal
@Ben Franklin:
But there are different “types” of mercury. The one that’s been in vaccines is much more quickly eliminated from the body (apart from the fact it’s there in tiny amounts).
The whole vaccine/autism thing (I have an autistic nephew) is nuts. If you look at the basic science, the case that the “insult” is prenatal is very strong.
If you want to focus on an epidemic, look at social inequality. That has a huge impact on health.
Ben Franklin
@Chyron HR:
At least your not lying about your personal habits wrt flu shots, but you’re not honest enough to admit you abstain, or avoid the preservatives.
Another Halocene Human
@The Moar You Know: The laws need to change, the “religious” exemption needs to be taken away, and we gotta stop letting kids who aren’t vaccinated in schools. Period. 100%. No exceptions.
Shit, religious goobers are the first ones to start talking about needing quarantines. Well, quarantine their asses and see how they like it.
scav
Johnny One Note emerges as Benny One Dose.
Another Halocene Human
@Svensker: They are currently researching ways to diagnose autism at birth. Maybe the next generation of parents won’t fall for this post hoc propter hoc idiocy.
Though there are probably some people who think that sex causes acne in teenagers, also, too.
Ben Franklin
@liberal:
But there are different “types” of mercury
Yes, I’ve also heard of depleted uranium, but the word depleted is a misnomer.
Michael Finn
As somebody who has autism and got the shots let me just say get the fucking shots. Autism is the formation of the brain which is done in the womb. There are certain auto-immune diseases where the brain comes under attack from the immune system but those typically have seizures and a high antibody count.
Immune system development? There are so many different things out there that if grabbed a handful of dirt then it is guaranteed you could discover new types of bacteria and viruses, heck they even discovered nano bacteria. Śo unless you are completely going to prevent all disease by taking away all contact with human society. The vaccines help the immune system evolve by pissing it off.
Metals in the blood? Do you honestly believe the water you drink and the air you breath aren’t filled with some of the same nastiness as the vaccines, if not more?
Those who cannot get the vaccine because they are immuno-compromised? You are going to have to get them into a bubble for the rest of their lives since few if any of the vaccines are live anymore. If their immune system cannot handle that then they aren’t going to be able to interact with our society.
sb
@Ash Can:
That’s why I didn’t hold it against people back then and why I’m not giving myself a world of shite for considering it. Back then, the fear was more pervasive and, IIRC, more than a few doctors were strongly suggesting a link.
But today? If a parent actually decided against vaccinating because of autism? It’s awfully hard to think of a case where I would be sympathizing with that parent.
Randy P
@Ben Franklin:My workplace offers the annual flu shot. I show up. I take it. I have no idea if it’s the one you think we’re all carefully avoiding because of mercury or whatever.
Villago Delenda Est
I’ve only glanced at the thread, but it seems that no one has mentioned 867-5309 yet.
So I will.
Central Planning
@Another Halocene Human:
Well, if they didn’t have sex, they didn’t have children that had acne. They have their own kind of logic.
Seanly
My stepmother was a first gen anti-vaxxer. She married my dad in 1981 and they had their first children in the early 80’s. The first 2 had the typical rounds of baby vaccinations. Then my stepmother read some quack’s book about how vaccinations cause cancer. The premise was that since we started vaccinating people, the rate of cancer has increased. Therefore vaccinations cause cancer. I was a young teen when she tried to peddle the book off on me. I saw the flaws in his logic right away. To boot, my understanding is that the rate of cancer is not too much higher just rarer kinds have become more likely (and we’re living longer & better to where cancer can affect us).
My dad & stepmom ending up home schooling all of their children to avoid mandatory vaccinations after that. The older two who have since gone to college must’ve gotten caught up somehow.
I don’t care for the anti-vaxx message or their willful ignorance of science.
Another Halocene Human
@shortstop: I have a Munchausen-by-proxy relative who’s a Lymie.
I think it’s possible that there are some autoimmune disorders triggered by a serious infection. I know viral infections which cause fevers can sometimes cause this to happen. However, it’s also true that “chronic Lyme” is the new vague, unspecified complaint diagnosis of choice. So all the people with the somatic disorders are going to gravitate to it.
They have turned into quite the political lobby. Pops up increasingly frequently in tea party politics. The new Fluoride.
Ruckus
I was born before the vaccinations for polio, chickenpox, measles and I’m sure others. Many of us here can make a lot of the same claims because we are old. I had measles and encephalitis. I knew 3 people who had polio, one a girl I went to school with. My dad had a customer who had TB.
Being so stupid as to inflict these diseases on your child borders on child abuse. On the wrong side of the border.
Svensker
@Capri:
I’ve been doing some genealogy stuff and came across a census showing my great-great-grandmother in the 1800s had 10 children born, 3 of them lived to adulthood. Before vaccines and antibiotics. Can you imagine losing 7 kids to disease? I think I would go mad.
MattR
@Ben Franklin: Since nobody else will give you the pleasure, I will say that while I don’t normally bother with flu shots I have had them in the past and I have no idea if they were a version that contained mercury nor do I care. This is not because I blindly accept authority, but instead because I don’t blindly accept fear mongering from people without evidence.
Mnemosyne
@The Moar You Know:
Wow, you really have no clue, do you? For the most part, kids who have a bad reaction to vaccines can live normal lives and end up getting about as many colds and other illnesses as the other kids as long as herd immunity protects them from the most serious ones. But, hey, let’s lock otherwise normal kids away in their houses because we need to punish them for having a medical condition that means they can’t be vaccinated! If they wanted to be able to go to school like other kids, they should have planned better, amirite?
Tonal Crow
DougJ, you could have discussed this issue without invoking the very Brooksite claptrap that we so often criticize. BTW, got some research on the political orientations of anti-vaxers? Or are you just repeating a stereotype?
Another Halocene Human
@Mnemosyne: I’ve never heard of parents of such children making common cause with anti-vaxxers. The only reason they can go to school AND NOT DIE is herd immunity. They tend to be very well informed about their child’s disease and therefore vaccines in general and they have a genuine medical exemption to school requirements which I’ve never heard of anyone having a problem with.
Anti-vaxxers want a special, unneeded exception either because they discount the risk of the disease and don’t want the 1/10000 risk of vaccine injury (i’m speshull, fuck you) or because they’re deluded.
joel hanes
@Ben Franklin:
I like pie
Another Halocene Human
@WereBear: What on earth is wrong with you? There’s a reason we don’t dump every vaccine into the bloodstream before the baby goes home, that’s all.
Did you read Maus’ link? I’m going to assume that’s a NO, otherwise you wouldn’t sound like such a shmuck.
Mnemosyne
@Ben Franklin:
Vaccines given to children haven’t had thimerosal in them for over a decade, and in some cases longer. But please continue to peddle fact-free bullshit.
Another Halocene Human
@The Moar You Know: Why can’t their kids go to public school? So you’ll deny them a public good because some selfish, narcissistic hogs are refuseniks for a simple, effective public health measure?!
shortstop
@Mnemosyne: Shows what you know. Obama secretly ordered that it be put back in. But please continue blind obeisance to your Dear Leader.
Svensker
@red dog:
I have 3 friends with autistic kids. None of them were “old” parents, none of them were “fast tracking” and all of them are devoted and caring parents who have lived difficult lives because of their children’s disability. Please think before you blame these folks in such a cruel way.
Another Halocene Human
@WereBear: I understand it is withering on the vine because medicine does work far better than prayer.
I wouldn’t discount the influence of a few good prosecutions by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It’s amazing how well authoritarians response to … authority.
(Cosseting authoritarian nuts just enables them to go more extreme.)
I wouldn’t blame CS for the exemption laws–Mary Baker Eddy’s been dead for a long time, but exemptions have been growing, starting with OR, not exactly a CS hotbed.
Hoodie
@Ben Franklin: I guess I need to retriangulate my toxins (maybe to include more bourbon before noon). Maybe it’s better to have a bunch of folks die from the flu or bacterially contaminated vaccines than marginally add to the mercury I get from power plants, CFLs and whatever else is out there. You are establishing new standards for dipshittery or you’re a really overdone parody troll.
Another Halocene Human
@jibeaux: Some of the lefties with it have this association of natural = good, created in a lab = bad.
Oh yes. Some horrible trolls on Science Based Medicine keep insisting that the immunity conferred by an infection (say, chicken pox) is superior to that conferred by vaccine. Despite being shown repeatedly how very, very wrong this statement is, the troll persists. The term “natural” comes up a LOT.
With the lefties and a righties there seems to be a “best of all possible worlds” folk belief that they can draw on good vibes or the right herb to cure anything. Then cognitive bias takes over, discounting all evidence to the contrary.
Mnemosyne
@Ben Franklin:
Oh noes! I receive an infinitesimal amount of mercury in my flu shot once a year! I’m sure that’s more likely to hurt me than eating tuna fish or dripping thimerosal directly into my eyes every day when I wore contact lenses.
shortstop
@Another Halocene Human:
With righties, Jesus generally replaces the good vibes and right herbs.
Another Halocene Human
@Svensker: It’s bad to try to assign “blame” because it sets off a lot of negative emotions that end up harming the child. But let’s face facts: genetics and lifestyle are major factors in autism.
As for the older father (not mother, btw) hypothesis, I don’t know how much of an impact that has, but the maternal lifestyle factors seem to have a pretty dramatic impact. (I’m also intrigued by the hints that there may be a spectrum with autism risk on one end and schizophrenia risk on the other.)
In fact, in my own family, one can clearly see the genetic line of autism and also the impact of gestational diabetes on the last autistic child, who suffered serious language issues that the other autistic children did not.
People with autism in their families know this. I’m sorry if it makes you uncomfortable. Aneurotypical people have just as much right to live their lives and be a part of society as NTs.
Tonal Crow
@Another Halocene Human:
Bobo’s on line 3 with a heaping helping of praise.
Another Halocene Human
@The Moar You Know: You’re an idiot and completely out of line.
shortstop
@Another Halocene Human: It’s perfectly possible to honestly address the genetic and lifestyle factors without emotionally accusing older parents of insufficiently valuing family, as red dog did.
Mnemosyne
@shortstop:
You owe me a keyboard.
Another Halocene Human
@shortstop: Au contraire, scratch the herbal troll and you will find a tighty righty Christianist crusader!
True, US Catholics don’t go much in for it or mainline Protestants as far as I know. But evangelical fundamentalists, who are into “do it yourself” and also Calvinist notions about the nature of Creation (you know, basically cutting edge 16th century Western thought), are pretty much the hotbeds for the and the right side of the lobbying coalition for “healthcare freedom/pharmaceutical freedom” which got DSHEA, the open season on rubes who will buy unspecified plant parts for big buxx law. Mormons, also, too.
Another Halocene Human
@shortstop: Sure, no argument there.
gelfling545
@WereBear: I did some temp work a few years back helping an attorney who practices education law clear out his huge volume of cases (he is attorney for several school districts) of vaccination exemption cases. Medical exemptions due to contraindication for diagnosed conditions are few. The largest number by far were the folks whom “God told” not to have their kids vaccinated.
Another Halocene Human
@Tonal Crow: Bobo can kiss my ass. I’m sure if you asked him about the subject he’d spew some Bill Maher shit or at more likely wisely nod and lecture us about how “both sides have valid points”.
Why is it so threatening that there is a substrate of lefties who believes some really weird things AND they are making common cause with some really far-out-there right wing homechurch homeschool Christian extremists?
That’s reality. So damn me for exposing it to you.
Mnemosyne
@Another Halocene Human:
Actually, given the poor rate of diagnosis for Aspergers and other mild forms of autism, I sometimes wonder if the “older parent” link is because that person/those people married and had children later in life due to having a mild autism spectrum disorder that went undetected.
Given how strongly genetic autism spectrum disorders seem to be, I think it’s a question worth asking.
(Both my niece and nephew are on the spectrum, but after having known my ex-sister-in-law’s family for years, it was pretty much the least surprising news ever.)
shortstop
@Mnemosyne: Fine. All the new ones have been chipped to follow your every move. AG Holder’s orders.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: What does this sudden concern about Mercury me of? Oh yeah, the great Republican jihad against CFLs. I bet Benny’s opposed to those too.
Another Halocene Human
@Pongo: Somebody alert ELF. Aside from the other charges he apparently proposed to engage in unethical and cruel animal research. Though many believe he never actually did any experiments as that would have been too much effort for a good grift.
Another Halocene Human
@Capri: And once again children suffer, as grown adults are very unlikely to be sickened by raw milk, but young children frequently die.
These are also the nuts that give honey to infants (it’s natural!) which carries the risk for infants of the sudden death by botulism.
Yes, there’s botulism in your honey, usually inhibited to the point that an older child or adult will never get ill. But neonates’ immune systems aren’t all there yet.
This is also why some doctor’s offices now ban unvaccinated children. It’s 2-3 yos with whooping cough infections who kill newborns who are too young to be vaccinated.
Trollhattan
@Ben Franklin:
Did you know you can have a flu vaccine without? Didn’t think so.
Trollhattan
@SatanicPanic:
Anybody who’s surprised a vocal gun-fondler is on the anti-vax short bus hasn’t been paying sufficient attention.
Gimme a “Q”
Gimme an “E”
Gimme a “D”
now
Rence & Repeat
SteveM
Fuck Donald Trump.
Mnemosyne
@Trollhattan:
Honestly, I never even bothered to check, because I’m pretty sure that putting mercury directly into my eyes exposed me to a lot more of it than the amount used to preserve my flu shot.
Another Halocene Human
@Herbal Infusion Bagger: Chelating agents should be put on the controlled substances schedule. I am so serious. I am trying to stop myself from all-capping this.
Helpless children are being forced to take huge injections of chelators (in one horrid case, an industrial chelator which it was not clear was even legal to use on a human being) because of this “it’s Hg poisoning” woo.
They track ketamine. TRACK CHELATORS. STOP THIS DANGEROUS, OFF-LABEL USE.
What, we’re only going to protect people from illegal pleasure (Puritanism) but not illegal harm?
ETA: I finally got what your nym means. I think it’s cute.
Svensker
@Another Halocene Human: In two of the cases I know, there are definite signs of autism spectrum in the families. It doesn’t surprise me that genetics would play a big part.
I just objected to someone saying that people who have autistic children probably are selfish older parents who wanted to wait until their careers were big and probably beat their children anyway. That really upset me.
SatanicPanic
@Trollhattan: I’m not suprised at all. I’m just curious as to what extent his cranky ideas reach- creationism? AGW denialism? Chem-trails? Flouride? Big Foot? The Loch Ness Monster?
SatanicPanic
@SteveM: Didn’t even need the link to agree with your comment.
Tonal Crow
@Another Halocene Human: You’ve used a Bobo meme, thus unintentionally recognizing it as valid. Sure, some lefties are anti-vaxers, but I don’t know of any data to support the idea, implicitly conveyed by your post “With the lefties and a righties there seems to be a “best of all possible worlds” folk belief…” that equivalent percentages of both ideological camps are anti-vaxers. If you have such data, post it. BTW, I wonder how many Balloonbagger centrists are also anti-vaxers?
Trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Yup. “Bioavailability” has to be considered when discussing the body’s uptake, or lack thereof, of any chemical or element. We can take up elemental mercury (inhalation, ingestion, trans-dermal) but IIUC, the really evil form is methylmercury, which is how it bioaccumulates in the foodchain (taken up by phytoplankton, then zooplankton, then critters that consume zooplankton, etc. until you top-o-the-foodchain critters–the ones we like to eat–accumulate it up in high concentrations).
Burning coal remains our biggest mercury source, as if we needed another reason to stop burning coal.
Another Halocene Human
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Are we seriously going to have a rolling argument conflating legitimate medical exemptions with these spurious religious/conscience exemptions that have exploded recently and destroyed herd immunity leading to outbreaks?
Very few children cannot be vaccinated but when they can’t, they acquire medical documentation and are allowed–indeed it is their right–to attend school.
Another group of children get vaccinated but the vaccine is ineffective for them. They are also relying on herd immunity. Nobody knows who the vaccine failed for until the outbreak begins.
In some areas, lots of parents are “opting out” and they use the religious (not medical) exemptions in some states to do this and still send their kids to public school. They are endangering everyone.
It’s pretty simple… not sure why this merits a flame war.
Trollhattan
@SatanicPanic:
A little like BOB w/o the limited sense of humor and misunderstanding of Plato. Hopefully he’ll start a newsletter to which we can all subscribe. In the meantime, delicious pie for everybody!
Another Halocene Human
@Villago Delenda Est: Public health’s communitarian outlook does tend to freak out some people, either because it’s an authority challenging their religious or patriarchal authority, or because they’re special snowflakes who “know better” or who have special knowledge unlike “the sheeple”.
Yeah, let’s not forget libertarians in all of this. Most of them probably vaccinate. But you’ll find them in the same alt-med sphere because they love the idea that they can outcompete the masses through special knowledge about finance/food/medicine, etc.
Trollhattan
@Another Halocene Human:
A very important point. Know a family of five, two kids and the dad got pertussis, despite all having been vaccinated. The kids had active cases for two months and the poor dad had it half a year.
California has had several pertussis deaths–a disease I always linked to my parents’ generation and earlier.
This is not nostalgia I can support.
Another Halocene Human
@Mnemosyne: Actually, given the poor rate of diagnosis for Aspergers and other mild forms of autism, I sometimes wonder if the “older parent” link is because that person/those people married and had children later in life due to having a mild autism spectrum disorder that went undetected.
Yeah, I would wonder about that, too. Also, older parent might have more financial resources to maybe diagnose autism.
The theory behind why they started researching that has nothing to do with that, though. I think we’re going to see some exciting developments in a few years that will clarify issues.
Another Halocene Human
@Svensker: That’s fair. Echoes of the old refrigerator mother hypothesis.
(Actually, it’s come back a little bit… some have suggested what the researchers were seeing was a mother who was an adult living with autism who seemed ‘cold’ to them.)
Blaming parents of autistic kids is stupid and a pointless enterprise at any rate. For one thing, it totally discounts the value that autistic people bring to the world, whether high functioning or not.
However, I think that shutting down discussion of child abuse and family abuse in the context of autism is unwise. Severely autistic children can cause extreme financial and emotional stress to families especially here in the US where there is little community support and little social safety net. FALSE BELIEFS, SUCH AS THE NOTION THAT A SPECIAL TREATMENT CAN “CURE” THE CHILD, ARE ESPECIALLY PERNICIOUS. They motivate parents to engage in dangerous treatments and practices and also encourage parents to reject their child as they are. Some “Autism Moms” on the wooiest sites claim their child is dead, dead inside, an alien, not human, taken from them, etc. These kinds of statements frighten me and indicate that the parent has cut off any empathy for the child, which is the first step towards neglect and abuse.
The DAN! system, if you break it down, is explicitly extreme child abuse, papered over with quack notions about how autistic children are so “different” (not human) that what would be horrific abuse to a “normal” (human) child is actually therapeutic. There are non-DAN! quacks engaged in similar practices as well. They beat children, deprive them, scream at them, punish them for infractions they don’t understand, etc.
Some parents HAVE bought into the notion that beating their autistic child is the right thing to do as a parent and will aid their child in coping and also somehow make them normal some day in some nebulous way.
They also get their kids injected with weird substances (dangerous chemicals, urine, vitamins), feed them kookoo diets, and of course don’t vaccinate them or their siblings.
Another Halocene Human
Oh yeah, DAN! stands for Defeat Autism Now! Says it all, really.
DAN! has links to Age of Autism (anti-vax site), Safe Minds (cray cray autism moms), and Autism Speaks (an anti-vax, autism parent and anti-autistic person charity that masquerades as being what it’s not, some sort of autism research foundation).
If you want to help people with autism and their families, please direct support to the Autism Science Foundation.
Another Halocene Human
@Tonal Crow: Do I have research? No. Just a lot of time in the trenches. And the sorts of reasons given for these odd beliefs do have ideological underpinnings.
What you’re engaging in is a sort of cloaked No True Christian fallacy, as you think clearly any lefty (hippie, weirdo, anti-authoritarian, flower child, vegan) who opposes vaccination is not a REAL lefty.
Research DOES show that the anti-vaccination crisis is hitting communities with highly educated parents, the same kinds of people who disproportionately vote Democratic. Now, that doesn’t make them lefties but when they start talking about “we need to be careful about what we put in our bodies”, “don’t believe everything you hear”, natural natural blah blah blah, toxins, “whole”, “cure”, “wellness”, “mind-body connection”, well, this cluster of notions has hippie roots.
quannlace
I was unlucky enough to come down with measles, (the vaccine came out just about after that, 1963?) and remember it very well. Not fun. Though I think the worst part was having to stay in a darkened bedroom and not being able to read or watch tv!
Original Lee
@Another Halocene Human: My cousin is involved in autism-causation research. I would say that they are awfully close to figuring out quite a lot of the mechanism. But unfortunately, it’s called the autism spectrum for a reason, and it’s complicated, and I suspect that even when the papers start being published, the vast majority of anti-vaxxers won’t give a shit.
Svensker
@Another Halocene Human:
One friend has lived an extremely bizarre lifestyle with her autistic child. He is severely autistic and has multiple other problems, as well, has no speech, has anger issues, is allergic to everything. She has done every possible vitamin/diet regimen in the world and tried all kinds of crazy things. I assume she has not tried the DANI stuff, just because she loves that child so much and has devoted her life to him. It’s tragic, though, because she completely believes he can be cured if only she can find the right combination of herbs/foods/whatever. In the meantime, she has destroyed her own and her husband’s lives by spending every waking hour trying to cure him and simultaneously kept the child isolated. He’s now a young adult and has never socialized at all — if he outlives his parents, and why wouldn’t he, he’s going to be institutionalized and will have had no preparation for living with anyone except doting parents. Of course, she lives in a deep red part of Texas where there are no social services at all, should she want to avail herself of them.
It’s just a horrible tragedy. And I don’t see it ending well for any of them.
Cermet
@Ben Franklin: Hope you stopped breathing since mercury is in the air thanks to power plants that burn coal. So, besides older people that carry massive amounts in their teeth fillings with no harm; still, really little chance of avoiding it if you breath air. Stupid point your are making since every study has shown that the amount of mercury in a vaccine is harmless (and few have even that); of course, tuna has a rather large dose but people still eat that, as do children. There is a more realistic threat that you can waste your time on.
WereBear
Oh, heck yes. My grandparents remembered measles outbreaks… when their happy normal classmate became permanently impaired, or died, in the space of a couple of weeks.
Valdivia
@Herbal Infusion Bagger:
thank you. thank you. thank you.
I would put my hands on fire for my phys therapy guy. I wouldn’t let a chiropractor near me with a ten foot pole. I was married to one saw him train, had him ‘treat’ me. I am convinced that is why my back is messed up today.
Flying Squirrel Girl
I have friends who opted not to vaccinate their 3 kids. The oldest has VERY clearly presented on the autism spectrum (Asperger’s, high funcintioning) despite never being tested or diagnosed, and the other 2 are much more typical kids. The father also has some signs of Asperger’s but again, very high functioning. I read once about children with Asperger’s being merely the highest peak in a mountain range, and that certainly holds true with the father/son Asperger’s. And it also blows the vaccine theory out of the water, since the father was vaccinated, children were not, and father and oldest son both indicate Asperger’s.
Another Halocene Human
Forgotten in the Thimerosol fear-mongering is that people were so terrified of deadly infectious diseases in the 19th century that they willingly chugged and gave to their children the OTHER kind of Mercury in an attempt to stall the progression of the disease.
Another Halocene Human
@Svensker: I don’t either. It’s tough enough when you have social services and the child goes to school, etc.
One thing that really strikes me is that you will see similar gestures/oddities with Asperger’s and abuse and neglect. When a kid with Asperger’s has been sheltered from social interaction (I could elaborate, but it’s kind of awful), the symptoms are so obvious it’s like a lightning strike.
Kids with Asperger’s have a social learning deficit. If gently guided they can learn how to change their habits and mimic normal social behavior, not only to fit it but it will actually aid the social learning that doesn’t come easily to them. A basic example, Aspies look at mouths instead of eyes when someone is talking to them. Because they do this, they miss out on a lot of information. Just learning to change the habit can make a big difference in that kid’s functioning and reduce frustration.
Another Halocene Human
@Original Lee: They won’t, but when autism is routinely diagnosed right after birth, that generation of parents won’t get what the fuss was about.
John
@Flying Squirrel Girl: No one is claiming that vaccines are the sole cause of ASD.
I hate wading into this topic because the vitriol is high despite the science being far from understood.
The question that could use some answering is: Are there a subset of children for whom vaccinations are a contributing factor toward developing an ASD? The most recent study does not address that question at all, though it is still worth reading.
For the record, I don’t believe this *is* the case but I’m open to the idea that it *could be*.
Another interesting theory that could be researched is whether acetaminophen may be a contributing factor. The idea being that a child is vaccinated, develops a reaction, parents give acetaminophen (children’s tylenol), child is deficient in glutathione and its precursors so acetaminophen metabolizes largely to N-acetyl-p-benzoquinone imine. Now NAPBI is largely associated with liver and kidney failure, not neurological disorders but it is an interesting theory in that it shows how vaccination might be blamed when the contributing causal factor is something else entirely.
Some research on that: http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227
Food for thought.
John
One more question, for DougJ:
You claim “People are dying”, how many people have died in this epidemic? The linked article does not say.
brantl
@Ben Franklin: Exactly. No one is paying any attention to that.
I’ve asked if thimerosol is still in vaccines, and I’ve been told yes, by the doctor that wanted to give me the vaccine. Funny, they took it out of food-animal vaccines, and let them continue to use it for some time in human vaccines; why would that be? Oh, yeah, animals are just below us on the food chain!
And mercury is still quite prevalent in the environment, thanks to coal-fired power plants. When they tell you thimerosol is not dangerous, they don’t take any environmental mercury into account.
Tonal Crow
@Another Halocene Human:
Don’t make stuff up, then tell me I believe it. I am simply pointing out that you propagated a Bobo-esqe both-sides-do-it fallacy by equating “lefties” and “righties” on this topic. It’s easy to do, but best to avoid, and it can be avoided while still fully discussing the underlying topic.
Mnemosyne
@John:
A complicating factor: apparently some children have a genetic disease that can trigger autism-like symptoms following a high fever. These kids are generally lumped in as “on the autism spectrum,” but if they have a different mechanism for how their issues occurred, why are they lumped into the same category as kids with similar symptoms who don’t have the same genetic problem?
We really need to figure out what’s “true” autism and what’s another syndrome with similar symptoms, but no one seems to be interested in figuring that out.
John
@Mnemosyne: I think that’s a tall order given that everything in medicine is classified by symptoms even when the causal mechanisms are completely different.
I’m not a fan of the theory that ASD is solely caused by genetics any more than it is solely caused by any other single factor. If ASD rates really are growing at the rate the CDC reports than clearly genetics is not strongly implicated as the gene pool is not changing at that rate. I think we’re looking at a (perhaps large) set of contributing factors that reach a certain threshold. Certainly genetics plays a role, but likely through epigenetic changes triggered by environmental stimuli. Which leaves the questions: what environmental stimuli and on who (children, parents, grandparents)?
Pseudonym
@Ben Franklin: Still waiting for any scientific evidence that mercury (particularly the kind that may be in some vaccines) is the pandemic.
Pseudonym
@John: Uh, no.
John
@Pseudonym: It’s true that using VAERS as a datasource is problematic due to the self-reporting nature. Also, I agree that paper is far from the best I’ve read, though not the worst either. I’m not trying to make the case that acetaminophen *is* a contributing factor, but I think the theory is interesting to consider whether something related to vaccination, but not the vaccine itself, is a contributing factor.
I don’t expect you, or anyone else, to agree. I perceive this debate as highly poisoned. There seems to be little room for people who are not 100% convinced that vaccines are a contributing factor in the development of ASD nor 100% convinced vaccines are never a contributing factor in the development of ASD. Both of those positions seems flawed to me given how much humans still have to learn about the functioning of the human organism (genentics, epigenetics, microbiome, etc).
John
Obviously attention has moved on to the events in Boston (and my heart goes out to those affected) but I wanted to ask something if anyone is still reading. I was just reading up on Andrew Wakefield and he is not against vaccination. He supports single vaccinations for measles, mumps, and rubella, but not the combined MMR vaccine. Given that parents are choosing to avoid vaccination with the MMR, as a matter of public policy should parents be allowed to choose the single vaccinations instead? (Obviously in the UK they are not allowed to do so, it is MMR or nothing).
John
So, a little further research shows that Wakefield is not even against MMR, just that when a single measle vaccination is available he recommends that instead. So much for him being History’s Greatest Monster(tm) against vaccination.