A nonpartisan, independent review of interrogation and detention programs in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks concludes that “it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.
The sweeping, 577-page report says that while brutality has occurred in every American war, there never before had been “the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after 9/11 directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody.” The study, by an 11-member panel convened by the Constitution Project, a legal research and advocacy group, is to be released on Tuesday morning.
Debate over the coercive interrogation methods used by the administration of President George W. Bush has often broken down on largely partisan lines. The Constitution Project’s task force on detainee treatment, led by two former members of Congress with experience in the executive branch — a Republican, Asa Hutchinson, and a Democrat, James R. Jones — seeks to produce a stronger national consensus on the torture question.
Though I suppose that if those on the right (Hutchison) and those on the left (Jones) are condemning torture, then….
c u n d gulag
GOP POV:
WTF ever happened to “We gotta look forward, and not back?!?!?!?!?!”
HUH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Carter ignored Nixon’s activities in Cambodia and Laos, Clinton ignored Reagan and Bush’s involvement in Iran-Contra, and Obama started off ignoring Cheney’s and Bush’s tortu… ENHANCED interrogations!
And who cares it if was bipartisan?
Bipartisanship only applies to cutting “Earned Benef… ENTITLEMENTS!”
Why is the narrative being changed now?
You trying to torture us?
schrodinger's cat
Sully calls Gitmo Obama’s disgrace. He is back to his old ways. Castigating liberals, waxing eloquent about Thatcher. His latest crush is Rand Paul. Mean liberals were mean to Paul when he was being brave by going to Howard.
Any way I predict this will be a thread with elebenty comments about how awful Obama is and Dronez.
Violet
@schrodinger’s cat: Does anyone read Sullivan anymore? I haven’t been to his place except once to see what it looked like when it moved. I just never read it. Wasn’t a conscious decision…just faded off my radar. Have notice he’s not mentioned or linked here on the front page much either.
cvstoner
There were no “considered and detailed” discussions, other than they wanted to do it, and John Yoo had to draft some twisted legal cover for them to do so.
Forum Transmitted Disease
I guess I could understand if there was an ongoing debate as to whether torture was/is appropriate under the circumstances, but as to whether we did it at all?
Please.
DougJ
@Violet:
His shtick is a little played out at this point.
TooManyJens
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Well, there are still people who want to push the line that waterboarding isn’t torture.
Ben Franklin
i had the delusional hope that when Kissinger and Cheney attend Madame Pinochet’s funeral, they could be snatched by the Hague, but my counterparts there tell me that has been preempted by this….
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/universal-jurisdiction
Violet
@DougJ: I wonder how well his venture is going. He’s several months into it, I think. Wonder if he’ll be making enough money to pay the bills.
Tonal Crow
This sounds like progress. I am surprised that Hutchinson (being, after all, a Republican) would sign on to anything truthful.
I hope that Bush is experiencing a twinge of anxiety about ending up before a war crimes tribunal, and that other would-be torturers are being at least slightly deterred.
Tonal Crow
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
That, my friend, is the Republican method: redefine reality to match the propaganda.
Seanly
The use of torture is abhorrent to me. Whether it was condoned by a president I voted for or against, the blood and injustice is on my hands. Torturing prisoners goes against everything I was taught to believe about the United States. I’m not niave enough to thing that all our spies, solders & police are wonderful Constitution-following paragons, but I at least thought our own government would set the standard.
And the kicker is that aside from Hollywood, torture is ineffective and rarely yields useful intelligence.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Ben Franklin: Well, the Brits are kind of up to their eyeballs in the Iraq war crimes department as well. I would not expect them to allow any American dignitary to be handed over, as they’d have to hand over some of their own as well.
kindness
Which circle of Hell will Dick Cheney exist? What could ever balance out his karma, even in hell?
Omnes Omnibus
@kindness: They are building a new one. It isn’t ready yet; why else do you think he is still alive?
Villago Delenda Est
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Criticism of the deserting coward malassministration’s attitude about “enhanced interrogation techniques” (h/t to some guy in a black uniform in Berlin in 1937) is dismissed by moral midgets like John Yoo as “policy disagreements.”
Violet
@kindness: Cheney is the undead. Can he die?
Yutsano
@Omnes Omnibus:
Deals with certain luciferic parties is my guess. How the hell else did he get a heart so quickly?
Turgidson
@Violet:
He was posting revenue totals quite frequently the first week or so.
Seems like the kind of thing where everyone who was going to sign up would also sign up right away, and then just a trickle. My only-a-little-educated guess is if he didn’t meet his goal or close to it within the first couple weeks, he probably won’t at all.
and I haven’t been reading him very much lately, but every time I look in, there’s an idiotic and wildly off-base hippie punch somewhere in the first five posts or so. So, yeah, back to old school Sully. I’ll let driftglass give me the bullet points.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: “
Well, at one level, it is a policy disagreement. If you have a policy of violating international law and common decency by torturing people, I disagree with it.
@Yutsano: That is readily explained under my theory. They can’t have him dying off before they finish the new Cheney Wing of hell, so sacrifices must be made.
Violet
@Turgidson:
That’s my feeling too. Once he’s no longer attached to a larger site, bringing him drive-bys, then he’s got to get his name out there enough to bring in new viewers. Not sure how he’ll do that. Maybe other people are linking to him.
schrodinger's cat
@Violet: I check up once in while to see how the Villager groupthink is trending.
Paul Joesph
@c u n d gulag: And there’s the Philippine Revolution where the little brown people suffered from torture at the hands of American soldiers during McKinley’s and Roosevelt’s administration that has totally faded from our minds.
Face
That’s unpossible. By definition, it cannot be nonpartisan and independent if they’ve concluded that torture was used. By definition, the conclusion makes it a lefty-sponsored, HateAmerica(TM) poll taken by gay elitists from Key West.
Violet
@schrodinger’s cat: I used to do that, but I noticed a month ago or so that I just wasn’t doing it anymore. Then I realized I didn’t remember Sully being linked or talked about here, even in comments. Then I started thinking about why. I can’t really say why I quit, but I just kind of did. Wasn’t a conscious decision. Just sort of didn’t think about his blog much at all.
Suffern ACE
One of the problems I suppose with trying to build a strong national consensus without saying what outcome you want is that the consensus that develops may be in favor of torture.
eldorado
@Ben Franklin: perhaps a storm will force their plane to land in the netherlands
Tonal Crow
@eldorado:
I done told you that that there “atmospheric physics” thingamjig is a lib’ral conspiracy, didn’t I?
Davis X. Machina
@Suffern ACE: This is America. Rest assured that embarrassment, and not revulsion, was responsible for whatever anti-torture spike you saw in the polling post-Abu Ghraib.
God knows what the numbers are today. I’m afraid to look.
El Tiburon
How about this: as a nation and a people we like to got to war and kill and Blow shit up. Period. Also, our political leaders will never be held accountable for anything ever.
Villago Delenda Est
@Tonal Crow:
My keyboard…it is covered with coffee!
/shakes fist at Tonal Crow
Heliopause
Unfortunate that this was released immediately after a terror attack. Not only will the report receive scant attention but there will be even more calls for torture going forward.
Villago Delenda Est
@El Tiburon:
Well, yes, but only if someone else actually takes care of the business end, the rest of us have other priorities, like shopping and watching Bristol Palin “dance” on the teebee.
Alexandra
@schrodinger’s cat:
Because he’s casting around for anyone he can support going into 2016, before he’ll ever consider supporting Hillary Clinton, who I guess will run as a semi-continuation of Obama.
Davis X. Machina
@El Tiburon:
Is there an example of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission except after a civil war or the equivalent (apartheid South Africa, eg.)
Ben Franklin
@Tonal Crow:
Villago seems to understand your point. Chemtrails?
Bob In Portland
We’ve been torturing people since Vietnam. It’s been as American as invading countries for their natural resources.
penpen
@Violet: Will there be Thatcher-style exuberant celebrations on the left when Cheney finally goes? That will be the hippie-punching extravaganza of the decade for the Villagers.
Ben Franklin
@eldorado:
It would have to qualify as a ‘miracle’ and the Tea Party has a lock on all such phenomena.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Tonal Crow: The irony: Global Warming gets Cheney arrested for war crimes. Sounds like using tax evasion against Capone.
Violet
@penpen: Doubt it. Americans don’t do that kind of thing as well as the British. Besides, given his ability to get replacement parts it’ll be another 100 years before Cheney dies, and by then most people who remember what he did will be dead themselves.
The Dangerman
If they catch the perpetrator(s) of Boston, I’d almost be in favor of torture AND broadcasting it (with extra voltage if a Rightwing “Christian”).
Villago Delenda Est
@penpen:
There will be celebrations along the lines of the end of the modified Return of the Jedi…fireworks going off, statues of the Dark Lord being toppled, etc.
Tonal Crow
@Ben Franklin:
Not even close; I don’t do pseudoscience. It’s a reference to global warming.
Turgidson
@penpen:
The Villagers can and probably will try it, but pretty much everyone outside the 27% hates Cheney, so it might not go over that well outside their clique.
Oh wait, silly me, the clique is also their target audience. Nevermind then.
Tonal Crow
@The Dangerman:
I guess we learned nothing from 9/11 and its aftermath.
Keith
The NYT still dances around the word “torture,” even when the article is about a commission determining that the US tortured.
The Dangerman
@Tonal Crow:
You DID see the word ALMOST, right? Just checking.
handsmile
@Davis X. Machina:
That interesting question prompted me to check out the Encyclopedia Wikipedia, and here’s what I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_reconciliation_commission
Canada’s Indian Residential Schools Truth and Reconciliation Commission seems the closest affirmative example. Also, in 2005 some residents of Greensboro, NC established a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to examine the 1979 “Greensboro Massacre” committed by American domestic terrorists.
WereBear
No.
I didn’t vote for that President, but either way, the blood is NOT on my hands.
Always against. Always will be.
The fault lies in those who made the decisions. Now, or in the next plane of existence.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@TooManyJens:
Fixed.
Mr Stagger Lee
@Bob In Portland: Hell the Chicago Police were torturing African Americans in interrogations,and it known some of the fun stuff in prisons, especially in the South, for a long so why is anyone surprised?
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
Asa Hutchinson (R-INO). Nothing to see. Move along.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
@Villago Delenda Est:
This.
My immediate reaction was how the courtier press continues to use that phrase on the rare time when events force them to report on it.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@WereBear: I’m not so sure it’s that easy. Yeah, I didn’t vote for Bush. Yes, I objected to the war before it started.
But I paid my taxes. And by doing so I find myself in the position of one of those fundies who screams about how extramartial sex is wrong, while paying a hooker to cram a dildo in his ass and hang him from the ceiling in a wetsuit.
I said it was wrong and paid for it anyway. I think on any level that makes me as guilty as anyone. YMMV.
celticdragonchick
@Violet:
Yes, I read Sullivan and I paid for the subscription. Sully has been pro Obama about 90% of the time and has been correct (imo) to criticize Obama over GITMO.
And no, he does not have a “mancrush” on Ryan. He rejected the Ryan proposal as “unnecessarily cruel on the poor” as I recall. If people want to go after Sully for something he said, it would helpful to actually read the statement at the source (IE primary documentation) and not rely on third hand snark.
WereBear
It will take a looooooooooooong time, that’s all.
This is why the concept of eternity exists. So we can measure such crimes against it.
celticdragonchick
@handsmile:
My landlord knew and worked with the jury foreman at one of the trials of the Klan/neo-Nazi killers. It was a clear case of jury manipulation and tampering. The foreman was the son of Cuban refugees who had lost everything to Castro, and he stated later that he intended to fuck over any socialists in any way possible, including lying under oath during jury selection so that he could force a mistrial or get acquittals. He managed to rig deliberations in such a way as to get not guilty verdicts against the murderers.
Ben Franklin
@celticdragonchick:
I am not so sure about the Arab being questioned.
This has the earmarks of white supremacists. Lots of activity of late, including last Sunday when some were caught with several bombs and bomb-making material in Idaho.
celticdragonchick
@Bob In Portland:
Read Imperial Cruise sometime.
celticdragonchick
@Ben Franklin:
Yeah, think we may have a sovereign citizen type here, but I was wrong about this when Gabby Gifford was shot, as well as the census worker found hanged in Appalachia about 4 years ago, so I am waiting to see what transpires.
Cermet
@Mr Stagger Lee: Does ANYONE here bother to read what was routinely done to African-Amerikans from 1880’s up to 1940? The forced labor-death camps that companies legally ran that used torture routinely to keep those people working?
The kangaroo courts that fed the daily stream of black men into that hungry machine of death, maiming and ruin? Please read that section of our history and learn the truth of what amerika is REALLY based on – slave labor of (mostly, but not only Blacks). Only hints (by hollywood) with the chain gangs even brush up on the real topic.
The shame of this country and its refusal to even mention these nazi-like death camps that we operated for generations – most did survive so I’m over the top relative to what the killing level was but as for torture, that was often used and large numbers (numbers will never be known) were murdered to keep the workers motivated. This country has a vicious streak a mile wide and it runs deep to the core.
Redshirt
@Villago Delenda Est: My favorite Star Wars alt-fiction concerns “The Ewok Apocalypse”, which covered the aftermath of the flaming ruins of the Death Star 2 crashing onto the forest moon of Endor. Many Ewoks gave their lives in those grim days, I tell you.
Violet
@Cermet: You build a country on owning people, it’s going affect how that country works.
schrodinger's cat
@celticdragonchick: I was talking about Rand Paul not Paul Ryan. Obama wanted to close Gitmo, but Congress did not. So how is it all Obama’s fault? Congress gets a larger part of the blame.
Roger Moore
@celticdragonchick:
Why is it correct to criticize Obama over Gitmo? He tried to move trials at Gitmo to civil courts and to repatriate detainees who we had no plausible reason to continue holding, but was blocked from doing so by massive, veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress, backed up by strong public opinion. What exactly was Obama supposed to do to fix that?
burnspbesq
Well, of course what was done to detainees was torture. Was that ever really in doubt?
That said, the Constitution Project is about as non-partisan as the Club for Growth.
Ben Franklin
@Roger Moore:
Recent developments exacerbate the issue of Obama’s critique on Gitmo.
Detainees have been on a hunger strike, commercial flights for lawyers and visitors curtailed, and now they are force-feeding the detainees.
But carry on.
Xenos
@Cermet: Are you talking about the turpentine business, the sugar business, or some other slavery-based racket?
burnspbesq
@Ben Franklin:
When you can prove that Obama personally ordered those things, or knew they were going to happen and failed to prevent them, let’s talk. Until then …
Joey Maloney
@Seanly:
“In a free society some are guilty, but all are responsible” – Abraham Joshua Heschel
Yutsano
@Roger Moore: Teh bully pulpit, of course. Duh.
Ben Franklin
@burnspbesq:
“Proof” is always necessary and yet so rare.
WereBear
@Forum Transmitted Disease: I understand the need to own the thing so we can dis-own the thing.
But on a personal level, we should not take on a Karmic burden we do not own.
Heaven knows (and they do) we generally have enough to carry. :) Namaste.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq: I’m not sure how this ongoing state of affairs can be denied…
Gitmo Is Killing Me
NR
@Seanly: Shut the fuck up, firebagger. Obama says, and I agree, that no one should go to jail for anything that happened. It was no worse than a fraternity hazing.
Also, dronez. I put a z at the end instead of an s, so that means that they’re not killing any innocent people and anyone who brings that up deserves to be made fun of.
dmbeaster
If for some reason you get in an discussion with a wingnut about torture and its alleged effectiveness, I always use the “then why don’t we do it to accused drug dealers selling PCP to kids or to accused pedophiles? Are you soft on drug dealers or pedophiles?”
After all, if it works, why don’t we use it in general? Why reserve it for foreign brown people accused of terrorism?
Of course as some have noted above, they are in fact for torturing everybody they don’t like. But they are adverse to admitting it.
dmbeaster
@Ben Franklin:
Yeah, so maybe you should confine your anger for something where there is some modicum of proof that Obama is for Gitmo. It is still open because Congress overruled his efforts to close it. There is ample proof for that, or is that now irrelevant.
Corner Stone
@NR:
Yeah? Well you didn’t properly capitalize it DRONEZ so that makes you the fucking firebagger, doesn’t it firebagger?
Only an Obot would keep it lower case so that no innocent people would die in these attacks, and we can discuss them like the civilized nation we are.
That is, if an Obama partisan ever actually mentioned that topic without the requisite and attendant admonishment of a severe party foul.