Gabby Giffords, in the NYT, breaking it down for you. Her full editorial:
SENATORS say they fear the N.R.A. and the gun lobby. But I think that fear must be nothing compared to the fear the first graders in Sandy Hook Elementary School felt as their lives ended in a hail of bullets. The fear that those children who survived the massacre must feel every time they remember their teachers stacking them into closets and bathrooms, whispering that they loved them, so that love would be the last thing the students heard if the gunman found them.
On Wednesday, a minority of senators gave into fear and blocked common-sense legislation that would have made it harder for criminals and people with dangerous mental illnesses to get hold of deadly firearms — a bill that could prevent future tragedies like those in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., and too many communities to count.
Some of the senators who voted against the background-check amendments have met with grieving parents whose children were murdered at Sandy Hook, in Newtown. Some of the senators who voted no have also looked into my eyes as I talked about my experience being shot in the head at point-blank range in suburban Tucson two years ago, and expressed sympathy for the 18 other people shot besides me, 6 of whom died. These senators have heard from their constituents — who polls show overwhelmingly favored expanding background checks. And still these senators decided to do nothing. Shame on them.
I watch TV and read the papers like everyone else. We know what we’re going to hear: vague platitudes like “tough vote” and “complicated issue.” I was elected six times to represent southern Arizona, in the State Legislature and then in Congress. I know what a complicated issue is; I know what it feels like to take a tough vote. This was neither. These senators made their decision based on political fear and on cold calculations about the money of special interests like the National Rifle Association, which in the last election cycle spent around $25 million on contributions, lobbying and outside spending.
Speaking is physically difficult for me. But my feelings are clear: I’m furious. I will not rest until we have righted the wrong these senators have done, and until we have changed our laws so we can look parents in the face and say: We are trying to keep your children safe. We cannot allow the status quo — desperately protected by the gun lobby so that they can make more money by spreading fear and misinformation — to go on.
I am asking every reasonable American to help me tell the truth about the cowardice these senators demonstrated. I am asking for mothers to stop these lawmakers at the grocery store and tell them: You’ve lost my vote. I am asking activists to unsubscribe from these senators’ e-mail lists and to stop giving them money. I’m asking citizens to go to their offices and say: You’ve disappointed me, and there will be consequences.
People have told me that I’m courageous, but I have seen greater courage. Gabe Zimmerman, my friend and staff member in whose honor we dedicated a room in the United States Capitol this week, saw me shot in the head and saw the shooter turn his gunfire on others. Gabe ran toward me as I lay bleeding. Toward gunfire. And then the gunman shot him, and then Gabe died. His body lay on the pavement in front of the Safeway for hours.
I have thought a lot about why Gabe ran toward me when he could have run away. Service was part of his life, but it was also his job. The senators who voted against background checks for online and gun-show sales, and those who voted against checks to screen out would-be gun buyers with mental illness, failed to do their job.
They looked at these most benign and practical of solutions, offered by moderates from each party, and then they looked over their shoulder at the powerful, shadowy gun lobby — and brought shame on themselves and our government itself by choosing to do nothing.
They will try to hide their decision behind grand talk, behind willfully false accounts of what the bill might have done — trust me, I know how politicians talk when they want to distract you — but their decision was based on a misplaced sense of self-interest. I say misplaced, because to preserve their dignity and their legacy, they should have heeded the voices of their constituents. They should have honored the legacy of the thousands of victims of gun violence and their families, who have begged for action, not because it would bring their loved ones back, but so that others might be spared their agony.
This defeat is only the latest chapter of what I’ve always known would be a long, hard haul. Our democracy’s history is littered with names we neither remember nor celebrate — people who stood in the way of progress while protecting the powerful. On Wednesday, a number of senators voted to join that list.
Mark my words: if we cannot make our communities safer with the Congress we have now, we will use every means available to make sure we have a different Congress, one that puts communities’ interests ahead of the gun lobby’s. To do nothing while others are in danger is not the American way.
What she said.
lojasmo
GG rocks
Baud
A good example of how Democrats — and everyone else — should be responding, not the defeatist crap I’m reading on the intertubes.
JCT
I wish Gabby was still my rep
Fired up and ready to go – let’s make a difference in 2014.
Redshirt
It’s sad that we can’t have a logical, reasonable debate about the subject of guns, and are instead always at the mercy of the forces of outrage.
I just wrote about it. Read it if you like – sorry if I offend.
lojasmo
But not the GG named Glenn
kooks
Check out Mitch motherfuckin’ McConnell’s Facebook page and the pic he (probably his staffers) posted of Reid. Sick fucks think voting theses bills down is a big fucking joke. I was mad before, I’m incensed now.
Lyrebird
Yes. What she said.
I called Toomey’s office earlier this week, surprised to have my first such call be a positive one. Offered profuse thanks to the staffer for his stepping forward. Told them I hope for further steps (e.g. magazine capacity limits), repeated my thanks, made sure to mention my (70% Republican) district, let it go.
Gonna send money to Giffords’ & Kelly’s new PAC, too.
Peace y’all
MikeJ
@lojasmo: I saw GG Allin once and managed to dodge the flying poo.
andy
Mother Jones has it (the cartoon on Mitch McConnell’s Facebook page) too if you don’t want to get dirty.
And yes, the correct response is to get mad as fuck. All these gun fondlers are going to be gloating- it’s high time they were put in their place. They need to have their arrogance thrown in their faces at every opportunity!
Betsy
Righteous.
ChrisNYC
Love that she used “cowardice.” They should make that the brand — cowards. Use it in ads. Use it on signs. (Bet you anything that in two days there will be a spate of columns about how Obama and Giffords are tiresome moral scolds.)
Redshirt
@ChrisNYC: People would literally die from this ad campaign.
The Dangerman
Sadly, the House is safely Red until the next census. Today’s bill, even if it had passed, was DOA there.
Wag
This. A thousand times, this.
Thank FSM that my home state, Colorado, is turning blue. Udall and Bennett both votes to allow debate. The state legislature passes and Gov Hickenlooper signed decent restrictions is guns and the climate in general is changing.
Time to work on the rest of the Nation now
beltane
@Redshirt: Why would people die?
Gin & Tonic
You know, RI politics is weird in some ways, and unsavory in many ways (at the state level, anyway) but I never have to wonder whether either of my Senators will behave like a douchebag.
Redshirt
@beltane: People with guns would shoot them.
Tokyokie
2nd Amendment fetishists’ argument is based entirely on puerile, juvenile, murderous, hate-filled fantasies of dispensing vigilante justice and delusions of having the competency to carry them out. And for most GOP senators, the preservation of these pathetic fantasies is more compelling than the real-life sorrow of the parents of murdered children. I can only begin to express how degenerate I find such people, pretty much all of whom claim to be devout Christians.
Omnes Omnibus
Damn.
JCT
@ChrisNYC: Cowardice is exactly the word for these gun nuts, they are afraid of everything, hence their firearm/binkie that they always have at their side.
I liked the description of Gabe running towards the gunfire – because chances are that all of these self-proclaimed big studly guys with their glocks and kahrs stuffed in their waistbands would have run the other way or shat themselves. Or shot their dicks off.
Redshirt
@Tokyokie: Not just profess, but oppress. These same craven cowards would enslave us all in theocratic bonds if given the chance.
OzoneR
@The Dangerman: I don’t think it’s THAT safely Red. It will require winning districts Obama didn’t in 2008, and we probably can’t get a big majority elected, but I think it’s possible.
spacewalrus
They’ve earned a place among the worst to ever sit in that chamber.
Has lop
Gabby Giffords pit bull has caused more destruction in this world than my guns.
The people who voted against her views are “cowards”?
Fuck her.
amk
@Redshirt: Well done. Tweeted your gory ‘red murka’ pic.
Keith G
@The Dangerman: Yup. This cause was lost in 2010 and it will probably not be won unless we can put together a sold plan to control several more state legislatures in 2021.
FlipYrWhig
Who would have thought that Joe Manchin would turn out to be NOT the most gutless, counterproductive shitbag in the Democratic Party (who’s still, alas, a hell of a lot better than the alternative)?
Chris
@kooks:
Pretty much my reaction to seeing Lieberman’s smug, preening face on TV around the time it became clear that the public option wasn’t happening.
jibeaux
It’s viral, and awesome, op-ed. Hit ’em again, hit ’em again, harder, harder.
f space that
@Has lop: Don’t forget to heat your waffle iron before you start. Here’s a recipe, enjoy:
Waffles: In a large bowl whisk together the flour, baking powder, salt and sugar. In a separate bowl whisk together the egg and milk. Add the egg mixture to the flour mixture, all at once, and stir just until combined. Stir in the melted butter.
Depending on your machine’s instructions, you may need to lightly spray the grids with a non stick vegetable spray. Spoon about a 1/4 to 1/2 cup of batter (or amount that is recommended in your waffle iron’s instruction book) onto one side of the hot iron. Take a knife or small metal spatula and smooth out the batter. Close the lid of the iron and bake until brown and crisp. It is best to serve the waffles immediately along with butter and maple syrup. These are also wonderful when served with fresh berries and whipped cream as a dessert.
See you in Toledo !
jibeaux
@Has lop: oh, it’s too late for pie, thank you anyway, I’d never get it off my hips but I’m sure its delicious and your pride is justified.
Gin & Tonic
@Has lop: Hey Has, this is for you and your guns.
beltane
@f space that: The recipe looks good. However, in Has lop’s case I think a better topping would be a nice, steaming hot dog turd.
FlipYrWhig
Why does anyone who currently has guns think something would happen to them as a result of any law passing? It wasn’t the “vaporize all guns” bill.
ChrisNYC
@JCT: There may be all sorts of stuff wrapped up with guns but I meant the electeds. It’s so distressing how small so many of them are and that they have such a lack of imagination, such a lack of FREEDOM in the conduct of their own damn lives. I mean, Senators, who are pretty fucking insulated from any real life consequences (losing their homes, being unable to find work, etc) but STILL scrounge and do the bidding of the NRA and so many other despicable interests. It is just so sickening.
mainmati
Gabriel is a brilliant essayist as well as – now ex-legislator. I am glad that the NYT published this – not that those who voted nay will care about her Op-Ed. The Constitution was constructed to make the Senate a reactionary body and has been such except for a few extraordinary periods of history.
We need a Constitution for the 21st century.
Gopher2b
@Has lop:
Fuck you, pussy.
beltane
@FlipYrWhig: Bed wetters wet beds. End of story.
Cacti
The way this went down is a microcosm of everything that is wrong with our political process. A 46-54 minority stalled a vote from even happening, and 46 percent of the US Senate votes the will of the gun industry lobby over the will of 89 percent of the American public.
Our Republic has gone far astray.
JCT
@Gin & Tonic: that should fit Has just right for when he sticks his little dick right down the barrel . So much inadequacy, so little time.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@kooks: I’m incensed and appalled – how offensive that must be to every person who has been in the position of grieving the loss of a loved one to gun violence, or who has survived it, or whose loved one has survived it. In other words, to those for whom unrestricted gun rights are not a religion. I’m embarrassed to be an American.
Jerzy Russian
I would go marry her and have her children, but she is already taken (as am I). I hope we keep hearing from her on this issue.
Jerzy Russian
@Has lop:
Her views, and the views of the vast majority of Americans.
Kay
“Senators say they fear the gun lobby…”
Interesting phrasing. I wonder if they actually said that privately to her. She was in Congress and they’d perhaps feel they had to explain why they’re doing absolutely nothing when she’s meeting with them.
Redshirt
Aren’t the Republicans agreeing here, in general, that no Democratic congress of the future should work with a Republican President?
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Cacti:
And the worst part is that it looks almost wholly impossible to fix. Unless the GOP gets to own everything of course, and then, by god, the US Gov’t won’t be able to work fast enough to plow everything through.
That’s the goddamn problem. Even if they don’t nominally have control federally, the GOP still seems to control goddamn near everything. And get away with it, time and time again. We’re pretty much dead-ended on fucking everything.
Calouste
@FlipYrWhig: There is this dark, subconscious realization that they actually have a mental illness that won’t allow them to get a gun.
JCT
@ChrisNYC: All the electeds care about is their job – McConnell is the perfect example. Their NRA masters have convinced them that they will lose their jobs if they don’t hew the line.
They’ve sold themselves to the highest bidder – it’s that simple . They could give a damn less about anyone but themselves.
Cacti
@Has lop:
What in the world did today’s vote have to do with your guns, captain clueless?
jibeaux
@Redshirt: you’ve seen their likely frtontrunners for the future job of Republican president, yes?
Alison
I know this is a naive question, but I honestly wonder how these fucks sleep at night. How can a person live with him/herself when they do things like this? I mean, I may be Jewish and thus prone to guilt, but are they incapable of feeling any at all? No shame, no sorrow, no compassion.
All they fucking care about is money, guns, and getting reelected.
Which means: 2014. Vote these fuckers out. Show them a God damn consequence to their awfulness.
Kay
@Has lop:
Be careful, though. It reads like they actually said to her “we’re afraid of the gun lobby”
We’ll see if they deny it. Then maybe she could name names! She’s certainly doesn’t owe them anything.
amk
@Redshirt: No problem. They’ll get rid of the 60 votes ‘rule’ the moment they get back the power. harry reid is a wimp.
Cacti
@Alison:
A sociopath is incapable of empathy.
Gopher2b
Because I’m an optimist by nature this may be a good thing. It puts real light on how beholden these people are to the NRA. Primary season starts in 6-9 months, this will still be fresh. If some of these people lose, we take back the House, and Reid musters 10% of the courage displayed by those families and The Congresswoman, we may get some real laws.
A win on this and a loss on everything else wouldn’t have resulted in the kind of rage in seeing out there. I think (in my own little world) people are finally getting it.
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
Yes. Yes, you are. You’re whiny little children who don’t want to hear that your favorite toy is dangerous to everyone else and you refuse to take any responsibility for your actions.
I was willing to be reasonable, but the more I hear from “reasonable” gun owners whining about how background checks are evil, the more I realize that confiscation is the only possible solution, because the kind of people who want to own a gun are the last people on Earth who can be trusted to take care of one.
Has lop
@Kay: I am just sick of the self righteous idiocy being posted about this.
Best of all are the several posts in this thread alone that praise Giffords and then turn around and talk about the evil of gun owners. Apparently these dumb asses don’t realize that there are several guns in the Gifford home. Is it because of her small weenus?
The level of stupidity on display here is staggering.
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
Because they all know that they’re irresponsible with their guns, and they’re afraid of Mommy finding out and taking their toys away.
Ninety percent of Americans — including gun owners — thought this bill was a good idea. The only people who are opposed to it are the ones who secretly know in their hearts that they have no business owning a gun.
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
Finally some self-awareness begins to dawn.
But I’m pretty sure that you’ll switch back to telling us that you understand gun violence way better than someone who’s actually been shot and watched people be murdered in front of her. After all, only someone who’s never experienced gun violence can tell us what it’s really like.
MikeBoyScout
And, my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen
MattR
@Has lop:
If you had a shred of intellectual honesty you would acknowledge that people in this thread are talking about the evil of gun owners who oppose even the smallest of regulations such as what was defeated today, something which clearly does not apply to Giffords.
Gopher2b
@Has lop:
Stupidity? Your the one that whined about a bill requiring background checks would somehow affect your existing guns. Dumbass.
Davo
(throws underwear onto stage at GG’s feet)
Cacti
@MattR:
And because this crowd lacks any sense of irony or self awareness, they’re the same ones who demand that every arthritic octogenarian who can’t even drive, get down to the DMV and get a photo ID to exercise the right to vote.
Elizabelle
@Gopher2b:
I think so too.
I think this was a Pyrrhic victory.
Retire the Cowards in this Congress.
Redshirt
Here’s the strategy to win 2014:
RUN ON GUNS!
Most folks want sensible gun laws, not crazed “every man an army” mindset. I think Democrats could take House seats on a gun regulation platform.
Mnemosyne
Quoting from another portion of my favorite comedy article about guns:
Ruckus
@JCT:
I believe the word is whore. Of course that denigrates whores. They have sold what passes for a conscience to the highest bidder. If I weren’t an atheist I’d say they sold their souls to the devil. Or maybe they are the devil’s minions. That would explain a lot.
Has lop
@MattR: gosh, so your insight here is that only gun owners who disagree with you are of small weenus.
You were discussing intellectual honesty, sir? Please proceed.
RaflW
@Baud: I made a biggish (for me) donation to Gabby & Marks PAC this evening. http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/
The NRA is spending big on this shit. We may not win the money game, but in the past we weren’t even playing.
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
I’m only telling you this so you aren’t traumatized when you finally get to see one naked, but women don’t have weenuses.
Has lop
@Gopher2b: do you even know what was voted on today?
Has lop
@Mnemosyne: waddle twaddle
Mnemosyne
@RaflW:
I have to wait until I get paid tomorrow but, yeah, I’m going to throw them some money. We need someone who knows the same congresscritters the NRA does and can force them to look her in the eye when they tell her they’re too shit-scared of the NRA to vote against them.
Violet
@Gopher2b: I hope you are right. Righteous editorial by Gabby. Glad she said it.
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
You don’t have to believe me. I just think you should at least be mentally prepared since you seem very confused on the subject.
MattR
@Has lop: No. My insight is that berating gun owners who disagree with me while at the same time lauding gun owner Gabby Giffords is neither ironic nor hypocritical. (EDIT: Being a gun owner has nothing to do with how I treat people. My reaction is based on whether they fetishisize guns or are willing to consider reasonable regulations)
Cacti
@MattR:
But, pit bulls or something.
amk
@Has lop: Go suck on your gun, punk.
Has lop
From the NYT:
“Even a bipartisan amendment to impose stiff penalties on gun traffickers, which was supported by the N.R.A. and expected to be adopted by voice vote, instead was defeated, receiving 58 votes, as the partisan lines hardened.”
Wow, what happened there?
Comrade Mary
I haven’t even finished reading yet — teared up in the first para, but kept going — but I had to come down hear and quote for MOTHERFUCKING TRUTH. Telling it bluntly. Goddamn, Gaby, tell them and shame them.
But a post from Kevin Drum earlier today suggests that more than just cowardice is at work:
And more recently:
Has lop
@amk: gosh, with insights like that, I am just amazed more people don’t share your views.
What is wrong with people anyway?
Cacti
@Has lop:
Republicans.
JCT
@Has lop: Hilarious, like Gabby I’ve been an avid target shooter all of my life and have a safe with a number of firearms. I load my own ammunition. I keep careful records of all of their serial numbers and I would have no problem whatsoever with any of the gun control measures in front of congress. In fact, I wouldn’t have a problem with a national registry, buying insurance or having to trade down some of my magazines. I don’t mind inconvience if it would mean that any whackjob can’t just go to a gun show, walk up to the smelly, unkempt guy wandering around with a semiauto rifle on his shoulder and a “For Sale” sign on his back and buy that gun, no questions asked.
Unlike all of you paranoid, black helicopter types who see any type of regulation as a sign of govt tyranny by “gun grabbers”- or a threat to take away your magical totem of power- this is just a hobby to me. Nothing more.
So all of this whining about watered-down legislation as a threat to your (or my) legal firearms is fucking pathetic.
ChrisNYC
@Alison: This is what stuns me, except I don’t even think they need compassion. They need some sense of personal dignity and self respect. They are grown people in these exalted positions and they scrounge. They sell themselves for tokens, really. It must be harrowing, the 3 am reveries they have. When they ask themselves, “What have I amounted to?” They gave Angelo Mozilo the law writing pen in exchange for, what, 1.5 points off their dumb mortgages?
Gopher2b
@Has lop:
Did you even read her editorial and do you have basic reading comprehension skills?
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
Can you tell the class how many Democrats are currently in the Senate?
Hint: it’s less than 58. Sorry, punkin, but this one’s on you. You stamped your tiny feet and held your breath until you turned blue and shrieked that any regulation of any kind anywhere was TYRANNY! TYRANNY! And your pals listened to you.
Aren’t you proud of them right now? They did exactly what you wanted.
Has lop
@MattR:your thinking is considerably more nuanced on this issue than others in these parts.
Truly.
Has lop
@Gopher2b: what was voted on today?
goblue72
@amk: Exactly. Lets be clear here. Background checks had 54 votes in the Senate. 3 more votes than it took to pass an assault weapons ban 20 years ago. But thanks to Republicanland rules and Harry “I Have No Balls” Reid, we “need” 60 votes to pass legislation in the Senate.
RaflW
Apparently some RW elements are, predictably, attacking Gabby. Notably, Instapundit is being a reprehensible asshole extraordinaire.
Mnemosyne
@JCT:
The sad part is, responsible gun owners like yourself are going to end up having all of your weapons confiscated because a loudmouthed few refuse to be responsible with their property.
It sucks but, frankly, I can’t see any other way for this to end. If we’re not even allowed to have the weak tea that was on offer today, then there’s no other solution.
amk
@Has lop: shoo, shoo, rabid dog.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
An alarm system and better locks just are not a good fetish. Come to think of it neither are guns. To be a good fetish I’d think you’d want something that can’t kill you with a few ounce pull of the trigger. If I’m not mistaken there have been a couple of people killed by very small children with handguns in the last couple of weeks. It obviously doesn’t take much skill or training to kill someone. Wait, it actually takes a fair amount of control to keep from having that gun kill someone. Unless you just want to count luck. I’ve been very, very lucky to not be shot dead on 4 occasions, and that’s not in the military. For way too many people that’s 4 times luckier than they got. And I don’t want to find out if number 5 is the one.
Has lop
@JCT: your being really stupid right now. Take a breath and read everything posted and you’ll see that I don’t advocate 1/2 of the positions you attribute to me.
Mnemosyne
@RaflW:
Well, you have to admit, it’s yet more proof that gun nuts are the world’s premier whiny-ass titty babies when the guy holding a gun shrieks that the mean lady who got shot in the head is bullying him.
Has lop
@amk: I think you’re confusing me with Gabby Giffords pit bull running unleashed in the marine mammal sanctuary killing seal pups.
Easy mistake to make.
amk
@Mnemosyne: punypeni$nuts. The current noobie nra troll included.
MattR
@Has lop:
No, its not. As but one example, Mnemosyne has been pretty clear that her contempt is reserved for those who are opposed to even the smallest of regulations and who believes that their right to own whatever kind and however many guns they want trumps all else.
@goblue72: I guess I will have to keep asking. Who were the other 50 votes in favor of fillibuster reform? Without those votes, there is nothing Reid could have done.
amk
@MattR: That’s because reed caved in by ‘handshaking’ a ‘deal’ with mcturtle. If you can’t control your own flock, then you’re a wimp, bohneresque class
pseudonymous in nc
@The Dangerman:
Perhaps the later part of the decade: you can gerrymander down to the block these days, but you can’t stop people from moving.
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
Not her dog.
Not unleashed.
Not a sanctuary.
Not even the right marine mammal.
And we’re supposed to listen to your policy pronouncements … why, again?
RaflW
Unless a gun fetishist doesn’t ever use the intertrons, a credit card, a bank, or possibly even a cell phone, chances are the government could know a shitload more than you want them to about your life if they ever became suspicions.
The Patriot Act (ohh, that name!) has made it shockingly easy for spooks to gather info on the flim-famest of pretenses. A registry is a joke compared to what the gov’t can do, FISA or not.
So for fuck’s sake, if you’re serious about government intrusion, work to get rid fo the damn Patriot Act.
[crickets]
Yeah, thought so.
MattR
@amk: But if Reid never had 50 votes, then his handshake deal with McConnell was not caving in, it was successfully bluffing to get some sort of movement from Republicans (even if it was minimal).
(EDIT: We criticize Republicans because they walk in lock step with their leadership. So I can’t really criticize Democrats for voting the way they believe is best, even if it is inconvenient and annoying at times. I will criticize them for having the “wrong” beliefs, but not for bucking the party leadership,)
JCT
@Has lop:
Yup – this was sheer brilliance on your part. No one needs “calming” – but you shouldn’t assume that everyone here is one of those “gun grabbing lieberals” who wouldn’t know a hi-power from a revolver. A fair number of gun owners here – almost no fetishists. There’s a difference .
Instead of blabbering about pit bulls and being a prick about a victim of gun violence (caused by a guy who never should have been allowed to buy a gun and a 30 round mag) why don’t you list all of the gun regulations you would support?
RaflW
@Mnemosyne: The sad part is, responsible gun owners like yourself are going to end up having all of your weapons confiscated because a loudmouthed few refuse to be responsible with their property.
That strikes me as a total non-sequitur. Why are all the guns going to be confiscated? By whom? When will the 2nd amendment be suspended? Who has the oomph to pass that through two houses of Congress and pass it in 2/3rds of the states?
Given today’s vote, there is somewhere near absolute zero (I’d say perhaps −270 °C) chance of what you say happening.
Mnemosyne
@RaflW:
Nobody thought the Democrats had a snowball’s chance in Hell of taking the House in 2006, until they did it.
Just sayin’.
JordanRules
@Has lop: I saw it as a post by a responsible gun owner who found no offense in Gabbys op-ed and that was correctly in opposition to your post about it.
State your positions in context with the bill today.
JCT
@Mnemosyne: I’m with RalfW – I can’t imagine this will ever happen. But if it did come to pass, hell, I’d hand them over – even my late father’s revolver . It’s my hobby, not my identity.
JordanRules
@Mnemosyne: To be fair…I don’t think that really the same thing though.
Lolis
I think Harry Reid is just showing Mitchell pen1s size in those photos.
Mnemosyne
@JCT:
I don’t think it would happen soon, but history has a way of boomeranging back on small, entrenched elites, which is what gun owners who support the NRA are turning themselves into. Social change can snowball faster than people realize — how many of us thought after the passage of Prop 8 in 2008 that in 2012 we’d be looking at four states with legal gay marriage and the possible overturn of DOMA by the Supreme Court?
JordanRules
@Mnemosyne: Ha,ha! The pitbull argument goes to the dogs. It was stupid regardless, but I’m certain that Has never stopped Has.
RaflW
@Mnemosyne: Sure. And the ERA flew the Congress and took the nation by storm!
Really, taking a single house of Congress is a very far cry from eliminating the 2nd amendment.
Next.
trollhattan
@Has lop:
Chet? Izzat you, bra? Long time no bleat.
Pro tip: nobody has to turn around after praising Giffords to ridicule gun fetishists–we remain facing the same direction. (It’s towards the light.)
RaflW
@Mnemosyne: Actually, what looks like a marriage equality boomerang to those who aren’t invested in the groundwork has in fact been a 40+ year effort. Yes tipping points seem dramatic to those sort of brought along unawares, but they do not happen without shitloads of work.
The anti-abortion right is trying like freakin crazy to get a tipping point. I think the left is underestimating the decades of core work they’ve done.
And the vote today is the result of decades of that kind of work by the NRA.
Mnemosyne
@RaflW:
I always wonder who the genius was that agreed to put an expiration date on the ERA. As far as I know, no other constitutional amendment has ever had one. Didn’t, like, Mississippi or one of those deep South just ratify the 13th Amendment last year or something crazy? (I’m too lazy to look it up).
OzoneR
@Has lop:
Who said anything about gun owners?
We’re talking about people who oppose even the slightest regulation in an attempt to at ;east try to keep dangerous objects out of hands of people who will misuse them.
If you don’t think there are gun owners who support what was voted on today, I have two Glocks I’d like to show you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Has lop: The mockery and contempt that you see around here is for gun nuts. Gun nuts are a subset of gun owners. Not every one who owns a gun is a paranoid delusional freak who think that any government regulation of guns is the first step towards the government coming to prying them out of their cold dead hands. Interestingly, Giffords’ husband appears to be one of the reasonable gun owners who doesn’t have a cold dead hands fetish.
Patricia Kayden
There are zero consequences for voting against sensible gun control. Zero. For Republicans and blue dog Democrats.
Gopher2b
@Gopher2b:
A host of gun measures including AW bans and capacity limits on magazines. GG is writing exclusively about background checks. Again, take a day off from the range and work on your letters.
DecidedFenceSitter
I’m fine with background checks, I’m okay with registration (don’t particularly like it, but I can live with it).
However, my problem is that none of these will be an effective solution – as was said in a previous thread, this will just chip away at the edges.
The only thing that will is to remove the guns. The Supreme Court, being as it is, will come down against any Federal/state/city laws.
Therefore, the only practical solution is to appeal the Second Amendment – because honestly, as interpreted by the USSC, when people say “Why do you have a right to shoot me?” That’s the uncomfortable answer. I may not fully agree with the USSC’s determination, but that doesn’t change the legal realities.
So folks who want better controls, I wish you luck. The political realities on the ground are working hard against you.
Kay
@Has lop:
Explain to me why you take it so personally. Obviously, you’re not a mass shooter. No one is saying you are. Yet any mention of the word “gun” and you rush to the defense of gun owners.
You’re conflating “mass shooter and gun owner”. I’m not.
It’s crazy to me. It’s as if we couldn’t say ” there should be better rape laws” without some silly disclaimer: “of course, I don’t mean to impugn the huge number of people who have sex”
When I read about a drunk driving case, I don’t personal.offense on behalf of responsible car owners.
This is UNIQUE to guns, this zany solidarity with every nut WITH a gun. Why is that?
TR
@Has lop:
You are going to die alone and unloved, you miserable piece of shit.
Brian R.
Has Lop convinced me to donate some money to Giffords’ PAC.
I wasn’t going to do it, but now that I see the kind of dipshiterry she’s up against, I’m sending them $200.
Thanks for the inspiration, fuckwit!
Brian R.
@Has lop:
“your being really stupid right now”
That pretty much says it all.
So sorry, let me put that in Has Lop Language:
Tat purty muck sez it awl.
DecidedFenceSitter
@Kay: Kay, I’m not Has lop, so maybe I can come up with an answer – from my observation – the so called solidarity is because the solutions provided don’t actually provide meaningful, from the gun owner’s perspective, protection/solution for the costs.
The best analogy I can come up with pre-caffeine is this: There’s a tragic accident involving a drunk driver. Kills a bunch of school children. There’s a general hue and cry, and the best proposed solution is that we limit the speed of all cars to 50 MPH on the interstates, and 25MPH within city/town limits, limits that car control advocates state are more than reasonable, no one really NEEDS to drive faster than 25 or 50 MPH.
When car enthusiasts protest these measures are ineffective at solving the real problem, drunk drivers running into school children, they are told “what about the children!? What sort of monsters are you?!” Which causes them to band together and bind closer and closer because it does come down to us against them.
And the reasonable folks in the middle get drowned out.
Omnes Omnibus
@DecidedFenceSitter: I think you are wrong on this for a number of reasons, but let me start by sort of agreeing with you on one thing. While Newtown is the inspiration behind the current gun safety push, there is no real way to prevent a sick or depraved person from carrying out a mass shooting (limiting magazine sizes could help minimize casualties though).
Your drunk driving analogy is inapt, because people are not proposing the equivalent of speed limits and because what sparked this wasn’t a tragic accident, it was a horrific crime. For the most part, what people are proposing are training, background checks, licensing, registration, insurance, and safer equipment. Sounds very much like the system that we use to reduce unsafe car use.
Will doing this stop a future Lanza? No. Does our system of licensing and registering cars prevent someone from driving onto a sidewalk and mowing down a bunch of pedestrians? No, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t statistically safer for having the system.
Canadian dman
@Mnemosyne:
ROTFLMAO
Hey Has Lop you work for CNN or FAUX News?
DecidedFenceSitter
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s fine, I’m happy to be wrong on this.
And I appreciate your honesty in saying that Newton is the inspiration, but what’s being suggested won’t actually stop it (it may reduce it). I just wish people would stop saying that we could have stop this. The only way to do that is to ban guns, and that’ll run afoul the USSC/2nd Amendment.
And for the record – I, personally, have no problem with background checks, I’m one of those 90% that support them, I despise the gun show loophole, and have no problem with insurance requirements.
Stuff that gets my personal dander up is something like the assault weapons ban – if you want to ban semi-automatic rifles and pistols, come out and say so. I’ll disagree, and on that I’ll fight you, but banning a weapon because it “looks” scary versus some actual pragmatic reason is just stupid.
dman
Hey Has Lop do you work for CNN or Faux News? Great effort in the pit bill comment
Has lop
@Kay: I would invite you to take a read through this thread and the last one and count up the number of vile and insulting things said to me. Then you might get an idea of why my reaction is what it is.
Seriously. Please do that. See post 124 for a sample.
Betsy
@ChrisNYC: Already. See: http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2013/04/glenn-reynolds-would-make-excellent.html
The victim is the real bully, see.
Omnes Omnibus
@DecidedFenceSitter: Two things: First, please it’s Newtown, not Newton. I used to live there and this has been a pet peeve of mine for 35 years. Second, on the assault weapons bans, I agree that they focus on cosmetic things that make no difference to the weapon’s capabilities. My interest is in focusing on things that will cut down on accidental deaths – training and licensing – and things that, over time, will make it harder to acquire a weapon for illicit purposes – background checks, registration, ending the gun show exception.
Has lop
@DecidedFenceSitter: exactly right.
And, if we wanted to really do something about gun deaths, we would give out millions of locks and have education programs about safe gun storage.
Far more children are killed by getting access to a negligently stored firearm than from intentional shootings.
Of course that won’t happen because the anti gun nuts don’t get to score any culture war points advocating a program like that.
Has lop
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: you’re right too. The NYT said that the senate defeated an NRA backed measure that would have increased penalties for gun crimes. That seems like a good idea to me. I didn’t follow it that closely. Was that just a poison pill that was really some sort of NRA ploy? Do you know what happened there?
pseudonymous in nc
@Has lop:
i.e. MOAR MONEY to the NRA gun pushers and their corporate suppliers.
H.A. Slop = NRA shill.
Omnes Omnibus
@Has lop: Aside from Manchin-Toomey, the only other gun bill I know of is the one increasing penalties for straw purchases and it is still alive as far as I can tell.
Also, if you read what most people in this thread and others on this blog are advocating is safety and security measures and everyone knows that one can’t stop a mad man. One can limit his capabilities though – and perhaps his access to weapons. Also, some dipshit who shoots someone through a wall while practice his quick draw should not be allowed to own a gun ever again.
Bob
Is it too late to call NRA supporters the “Pro-Death” Party?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob: I lean toward hysterical and unsafe. Frame them as pants-pissy ‘fraidy-cats.
Mnemosyne
@Has lop:
Your very first post in this thread:
Gosh, I can’t imagine why people didn’t treat your views with respect. After all, you understand the reality of gun violence better than Gabby Giffords does because you aren’t distracted by having actually experienced it first hand, amirite?
Also, too, I donated $50 to her PAC this morning in your honor. You’re welcome.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
‘Fraidy cats living in their Barbie Dream Houses full of accessories:
DecidedFenceSitter
@Omnes Omnibus: And unfortunately, while you and I could probably come to an agreement on 75-90% of what both of us want for effective gun safety rules and regulations – the training I got for CCW was a joke, and needs to be improved, background checks for every gun selling transaction.
Catsy
@Cacti:
One of these things is not like the other.
But then again, you know that full well, and you’re simply being either willfully obtuse or deliberately dishonest.
Edit: Wow, did I ever totally misread that one. Mea culpa.
grandpa john
@Tokyokie: everytime I see one of the evil assholes claim to be God fearing christians I think of the words that Jesus spoke;