Looks like we could use a new thread:
Our colleagues report from Boston that the surviving suspect was identified as Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, 19, of Cambridge, Mass., according to a law enforcement official. Investigators said they believe that both of the suspects were Chechens.
Addition by AnneLaurie: Boston’s Channel 7 is still doing a live feed — whole city of Boston is now on lockdown.
Ramalama
Reddit posted that there was a controlled explosion at Charlesgate apartments, Cambridge. Anyone else hear/read this? (sorry don’t want to be too rumor mongery)
Hill Dweller
NPR is reporting a third man has been arrested. They’re calling him an accomplice.
Robin G.
I just woke up and what the ever loving fuck.
MikeJ
@Ramalama: On the radio they said they were going to. They said near Commonwealth Ave, which is in Boston. On the radio they were saying “under the ramp” which looks sorta like this. But I don’t know for sure.
Comrade Jake
Anyone else seen the photo of swat team guys on the roof of someone’s shed in Mass? Crazy.
MikeJ
@Hill Dweller: Harry Lime?
NotMax
@Ramalama
Boston Globe reported that police detonated a suspect item found there.
Schlemizel
listening to NPR on the way into work this morning and I wanted to put my foot through the radio. They were carrying Bostons feed and it was obvious they had run out of useful thing s to say some time ago. There was an extended discussion about the one suspect going to some la-de-da school and getting a $2500 scholarship from the city of Cambridge and he was the student athlete of the year and he was a wrestler and it was probably him becuase he was 19 so that would have been about the right age to graduate in 2011 and on and on and on then – but all we know is that is someone with the same name and the same spelling.
That is what passes for enlightened news these days I guess
Betty Cracker
I lived in Boston for a few years ages ago. I had a commute for awhile that took me past the Arsenal Mall daily. So weird to see it on my teevee all these years later. I hope everyone in the area stays safe.
Schlemizel
@MikeJ:
He would be the third man
NotMax
Now saying family arrived in U.S. in 2002 or 2003.
Hill Dweller
@MikeJ:
He reportedly had a cat…
Valdivia
@NotMax:
which in a way makes me feel better because it totally changes the tenor of the whole ‘immigration’ story. I liked the way @beltane put it in the other thread: a Columbine done by young muslims who happened to have moved here 12 years ago.
MikeJ
@Valdivia:
Hard to call a seven year old a sleeper.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Shelter in place has been extended to the entire city of Boston.
Betty Cracker
Now the police commish is saying everyone in Boston should stay inside. Wow.
Odie Hugh Manatee
One thing to note is that if you have brown skin then it’s probably the safest time to go out for a stroll in Boston and not be harassed by the cops.
;)
Orpho
I get that it’s easier to catch the suspect if everyone is indoors and all public transit is shut down, but how long can you shut down a metro area to find a single guy?
Valdivia
@MikeJ:
I know but these crazies are already saying the stupidest S**T you can imagine.
Betty Cracker
@Orpho: I was thinking that too. This is unprecedented as far as I know.
c u n d gulag
CHECHENS?!?!
If you asked me, out of all of the f*cking countries that we’ve f*cked with over the f*cking decades, I’d have put people from f*cking Chechnya right around dead f*cking last – after all, they’re Russia’s favorite whipping-boy.
I’d have put New Zealanders ahead of Chechnians.
What, Moscow doesn’t have any fucking marathons?
What’s their beef with us, the US?
Couldn’t get dates for some prom?
I can “get” terrorists from the Middle East coming here and killing people – even foreigners running a marathon.
But people from the former USSR’s, or now Russia’s, sphere of influence?
WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
FTW?!?!?!?!?!
TFW?!?!?!?!?!
TWF?!?!?!?!?
Etc…
Cue Malkin’s flying-monkey’s!
There goes immigration reform!
They’ll suspect each and everyJuan!
beltane
@Odie Hugh Manatee: All Italians, Jews, and Greeks should keep a low profile.
Robin G.
Damn. The social media real time updates on all this are amazing, but Christ, people, if there’s gunfire in your neighborhood then GET AWAY FROM THE WINDOWS.
JPL
A friend who also frequents this blog, daughter, husband and baby live on Norfolk St. in Cambridge. ugh
Raven
@Orpho: a single guy that has killed at least 5 people and wounded 150+? Gee, why would anyone worry about that?
Hill Dweller
@Raven: Also too, he is carrying explosives.
NotMax
@Valdivia
Other than there being 2 people whose motivations are/were unclear involved in spree killing, I see no parallels and found the original comment bringing in Columbine as an example somewhat crass.
aimai
@Schlemizel:
Cambridge Rindge and Latin is the public highshool. Not la de da.
Raven
@Betty Cracker: so they don’t and the motherfucker takes out a subway car full of people.? That wouldn’t look too hot on your résumé if you made the decision not to shut it down.
Schlemizel
@Robin G.:
When my folks retired to Phoenix my dad would call me once in a while to report he was in the back yard watching the police helicopter scanning its great light looking for some criminal in his neighborhood!
I tried to explain to him the danger from both the crook and the cops but I don’t know if he ever was able to give up the excitement of watching.
If I were in Boston I would be enjoying my morning coffee in the basement!
Betty Cracker
@Raven: It’s not that the guy isn’t dangerous, but realistically, how long can you shut a city down?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Orpho: It also reduces the chance of innocent casualties. I’d hunker down for a week if necessary.
Waldo
Can we all agree these guys aren’t “gentlemen”? I’m looking at you, Mika and Willie.
jonas
@c u n d gulag: NPR was speculating that some Chechens hold a grudge against the US for failing to do more to help their separatist movement, especially after intervening in Bosnia and Kosovo. But that was like 15-20 years ago. Until now Chechen terrorism — if that indeed was the motivation here — was always directed at Russia.
Raven
@Betty Cracker: until he is dead or caught
aimai
@JPL:
As far as I know, locked down in Cambridge myself, our police haven’t begun strfing and shooting anyone like the goddamned LAPD. I think we are doing pretty well, considering. I wish they’d get this kids highschool wrestling coach to talk him down. He’s just a kid, whatever horrible crimes he’s committed he’s just not old enough to keep going on his own except suicidally.
Raven
@Waldo: don’t be doggin Willie
He’s mos def the sane one on that show.
Schlemizel
@aimai:
Odd name for a public school AND they need a scholarship?
Sorry, but those to bits of mindless chatter left me with the impression it was one of the wealthy scion prep holes.
Orpho
@Raven It’s not a question of worry, obvs, everyone is worried. It’s just hard to keep a city locked down like this. Trust me, I’m in Waltham near Watertown, I have no intention of going outside. Lockdowns like this are just tricky to maintain – millions of people sheltering in place. I’m just thinking about how long they can keep it going if they don’t find him by tonight. Keep it shut down tomorrow too? Day after? It starts to get tricky.
max
{laughs} At some point in the last two days, in response to reading something, the phrase, ‘well, maybe they’re fucking Chechnyans’ popped out of my mouth. It didn’t make any sense then. It doesn’t make any sense now either. (‘I hate Vladmir Putin! Let’s bomb the Boston Marathon to send him a message!’)
At any rate, Tamerlan (Timur?) is definitely a Muslim (with that name, he’d kinda have to be), and NYT has him as 26. It would make him 15-16 when he came here. Martial arts training he has, but I’m not seeing the weapons training. Things continue to not fit together well.
max
[‘Maybe he wound up in the hole to the Russian or Armenian mob? Do they have a Kazahk mob?’]
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Raven: It’s a reasonable question. Most city people don’t have a stash of food and water.
I’d be filling the bathtub right now if I lived there.
Raven
@Orpho: I ‘m not saying people are going to respect the lockdown, just that the Man has got to make that call.
Elizabelle
Anybody watching ESPN? (I’m not; just curious.)
DC Fox station has bombers’ uncle on telephone now.
Schlemizel
@Raven:
I think you are all being too hard on Betty. Its a legitimate question, how long can you keep a city the size of Boston on lock down? The logistics are mind boggling. I don’t think she was questioning the logic behind it
Betty Cracker
@Raven: Understand, I’m not criticizing the decision to go into lock-down mode: I’m just curious from a logistical standpoint — what if they don’t catch this guy for several days? Are the cops going to ask four million-plus people to stay inside with the doors locked? Hopefully they’ll catch the mofo soon and render this question moot…
handsmile
Just woke about a half hour ago. Rapidly flipping between TV channels and scanning these BJ threads (which have been far more informative than US broadcast media). Thank god I get Al-Jazeera TV because the US broadcasts are grotesquely melodramatic. MIka on MSNBC is especially revolting.
Thanks to many here (and the earlier threads) for fast fingers and good information/insight.
JPL
@aimai: Her street has news and a large police force. It appears that is where they lived.
Schlemizel
@Betty Cracker:
JINX!
the Conster
@Robin G.:
This, and I live in a close in suburb. Holy fucking shit, enough.
Raven
@Schlemizel: I ‘m not being hard on anyone, it’s a conversation and it’s what I think.
Comrade Jake
@aimai: but it just sounds so FANCY!
NotMax
@Valdivia
Also too, why keep bringing in the label muslim? We have as yet nothing whatsoever definitive pointing to religion as a motivating factor.
Seriously, would you refer to the Columbine shooters as young Christian males?
Raven
@Betty Cracker: yea, I hear ya.
Comrade Jake
http://twitter.com/shawna_england/status/325188104912785408/photo/1
Holy shit
Raven
@NotMax: yea, that’ll fly
Anne Laurie
@Orpho:
It’s Friday, and the end of (public) school vacation week. “It may take hours” is what the police are telling the media; better to tell everyone to sleep in and start the weekend early rather than deal with the chaos!
Elizabelle
RE suspect driving car over his downed brother:
could he have been trying to trigger the IED?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@beltane:
Yeah, I told my wife that it would suck to be white with dark hair and a white baseball cap in Boston today.
Hopefully tomorrow is a better day. ;p
MikeJ
@Comrade Jake: Send *that* one in to Sully.
Turbulence
Norfolk St is 4 blocks away from my apartment. ;-)
Raven
@Comrade Jake: that is one shitty firing position
Keith G
This morning in America, how much office work is not getting done?
Unsympathetic
Anyone from any ethnicity can go crazy.. not sure there’s any link to “The Chechen Mob” or whatever.
OK, so two folk went crazy together and had family bonding time making anti-personnel mines out of pressure cookers.. my family plays Scattergories.
dr. bloor
@MikeJ: Oh, just wait.
scav
I did rather like the breathless disconnect when one of the local anchors seemed
A) entire unphased by the police telling everyone to stay indoors (the bulk of her reporting semed to consist of describing — or asking people leading questions about — how scared people were and should be and then describing being moved along by police) but
B) stunned that the police were asking businesses not to open.
a small moment, but I needed the little breather.
Betty Cracker
@jonas: I heard that NPR speculation too (about Muslim resentment over Chechnya), which, unless they have information they aren’t sharing, is totally irresponsible. We’ll find out soon enough what motivated this. Ascribing it to Muslim rage is just unbelievably over the top.
@Schlemizel: Pinch, poke! You owe me a Coke!
Roger Moore
@Betty Cracker:
I would guess around a day. They’ve shut down public transit- and asked people not to leave their houses in cars- during the morning commute. That means they’ve already created major disruption, and leaving things shut down for the rest of the day isn’t going to exacerbate things too much more. I doubt they can keep the whole city closed tomorrow, though.
MikeJ
Police radio repeating warning about suicide vest.
Raven
@Keith G: I ‘m sitting in preop and my bride is in la la land.
Highway Rob
Okay, sign me up for a couple of weeks in which Americans collectively know that Chechnya is a country, and stop mistaking it for that mediocre craft vodka they tried once at a party a few years ago.
Orpho
@Anne Laurie
Yeah, it’s a piece of luck (so to speak) a lot like the timing of this year’s big snowstorm – shutting down the city on a weekend is much easier.
ETA: although obviously I hope it’s over long before then.
Laur
Someone I used to consider a friend is flooding me with texts about that stupid crap on 4chan where some dude said he worked for the government and knew it was all a set-up. And now that that guy’s story (that it would be a lone right-wing gun-nut) is that the government picked some other suspects since the story leaked!!!11!11!!!!!!!!!!
NotMax
@Raven
Don’t want it to seem I’m just slamming on Valdivia. I’m not, but trying to point out that labels matter. And greatly appreciate the insight as to immigration she has been thoughtfully providing.
Gin & Tonic
@max: People I know who’ve reviewed Timur’s Vkontake page say he’s speaking Russian with an Arab accent, FWIW.
Betty Cracker
@Raven: Best of luck to you both!
Raven
@NotMax: nah, I am just bracing for what we know is coming.
Hill Dweller
@MikeJ:
I wonder if they’re feeling like the capture/kill is close. They warned about the suicide vest a couple of hours ago, but now it’s coming in regular intervals.
gogol's wife
@Raven:
I’m afraid he’s whistling in the dark.
c u n d gulag
@jonas:
That’s what I don’t get!
Back in January of ’95, I was chaperoning a college trip to Moscow – this, while Chechen rebels were threatening to set-off irradiating devices in the parks.
Fun times —— NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m still baffled as to what their motivation is/was.
Hopefully, they’ll catch the surviving brother, alive.
But, I doubt it.
Everybody in authority is better off with him dead.
And they’ve LOCKED-DOWN the entire city of f*cking BOSTON?
WTF?!?!?!?!
BOSTON!
FOR ONE F*CKING GUY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I’m more nervous about that, than I am about anything else in this story!
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Currently watching FBI searching a woman in a headscarf. Reporters say she was in the brothers’ apartment.
MikeJ
Red Sox scheduled to play the Royals at 7:10 local.
NESN is based right by the Arsenal Mall.
Lurking Canadian
@NotMax: Chechnya is foreign enough and Muslim enough that the narrative will be that these two are the handpicked heirs of bin Laden and we told you Obummer wouldn’t keep us safe, no matter their actual motivations.
Ramalama
A propos of nothing / gossip central, I was supposed to drive down to Boston two days ago and stay with a friend who lives in Watertown and works at the Stata Center at MIT. I wasn’t planning on spending any time in the Back Bay so thought that the bombing at the marathon wouldn’t ruin my plans, but all of my friends in MA said on Weds, “Boston’s on lockdown…Come back next week!”
Glad I’m in hinterland territory right now.
handsmile
Guardian live blog, excellent as always for its multiple sourcings:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/19/boston-mit-police-dead-watertown
MikeJ
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Camera operators looking back at tape. Woman may not have been handcuffed when pulled out. Began resisting, then got cuffed led down street
by Wesley Lowery via twitter
Earlier tweet a neighbor said she’d never seen either of the suspects.
cbear
Favorite quotes of the morning from Mika B:
“The police are stopping people on the street–AND MAKING THEM TAKE THEIR HANDS OUT OF THEIR POCKETS!!!”
Shocking, huh?
Later–
“There’s a woman outside–WITH A BABY–and the police are ransacking her house!!!”
What will we tell the children?
Is this too much to hope for?
f space that
@Lurking Canadian: Anyone in the House file Articles of Impeachment yet ?
aimai
@Schlemizel:
Do you not know that “Latin” schools used to be public schools that you had to pass an exam to get into? Also, in MA a 2,500 dollar scholarship is pretty much the least amount of money you could get/give. Cambridge Latin (a public exam school) dates back practically to the founding of MA):
CRLS is actually several separate schools combined into a greater whole. In 1642, the year Harvard College’s first class of nine young men graduated, the General Court made it the duty of Cambridge to require that parents and masters properly educate their children or be fined if they neglected to do so. (Girls, however, did not usually attend public schools until 1789, when Boston voted that “children of both sexes” should be taught in the reading and writing schools of their newly reorganized system.) In 1648, Cambridge set up a public grammar school, Master Elijah Corlett’s “lattin schoole,” making Cambridge the fifth town (after Boston, Charlestown, Dorchester, and Salem) in the Massachusetts Bay Colony to do so. Corlett’s schoolhouse came into the possession of Old Cambridge in 1660, and over the next century was succeeded by several new buildings. The public school that evolved from Cortlett’s original was a “grammar school” in a double sense: an English grammar school for Old Cambridge and a Latin grammar school (teaching the rudiments of Latin and Greek) for all Cambridge.[5] The school generally aimed to prepare students for admission to college:
“And by the side of the colledge a faire GRAMMAR Schoole, for the training up of young Schollars, and fitting of them for ACADEMICALL LEARNING, that still as they are judged ripe, they may be received into the colledge of this Schoole. Master CORLETT is the Mr., who hath very well approved himselfe for his abilities, dexterity and painfulness in teaching and education of the youth under him.”[6]
By 1832, public schools in Cambridge were open to girls as well as boys. In 1838, Cambridgeport organized a public high school to serve all of Cambridge at the corner of Broadway and Winsor Streets. However, since the location was not easily accessible to either Old Cambridge or East Cambridge, most of the new high schools’ students were drawn from Cambridgeport. In 1843, Old Cambridge set up the Female High School, and East Cambridge completed its Otis schoolhouse. Not until 1848 did plans to merge the high schools of the three competitive wards overcome sectional differences. This marked the origin of the Cambridge High School, which began in a new building erected at the corner of Amory and Summer streets and was immediately flooded with over 135 applicants.[5]
The Cambridge High School was divided in 1886: its classical department became the Cambridge Latin School and its remaining departments the Cambridge English High School. The English High School was located at the corner of Broadway and Fayette Streets, while the Latin School was transferred to the Lee Street church, which had been renovated to receive it. At the time of the separation, the high school contained 515 pupils, and 16 teachers. Six teachers and 165 pupils went to the Latin school.[5] In September 1888, the Cambridge Manual Training School for Boys (to become Rindge Tech), founded and maintained by Frederick Hastings Rindge, was opened to the boys of the English High School. In 1892, the English High School moved into a commodious new building on Broadway; Rindge had presented the land to Cambridge at a cost of $230,000. The EHS’s old building at Broadway and Fayette was remodeled, and the Latin School moved in. By 1896, the Latin School had grown so quickly that plans were underway for another new building (cost approx. $250,000) that would stand on land adjacent to the English High School building and the Public Library.
In 1977, Cambridge High & Latin and the Rindge School of Technical Arts and were merged into Cambridge Rindge and Latin, or CRLS. The old Cambridge High & Latin building was demolished in 1980, but the old granite lintel and doorway frame[7] have been put in place at the corner of Ellery Street and Broadway as a commemorative archway, leading into the grassy fields of Joan Lorentz Park.
As of 2009, Cambridge Rindge and Latin remains one of the most diverse schools in the United States, with over 83 different countries represented within its halls.
Poopyman
@Comrade Jake: Now would be a bad time to let the cat out.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@MikeJ: The only feed I’m getting even halfway reliably is WHDH, and it’s spotty. What’s the best national TV coverage ATM?
MikeJ
Man in black hoody being chased 17 willow park watertown.
Valdivia
@NotMax:
omg, because I was trying to make the opposite case to what the MSM is calling muslim terrorists right now?
the whole thing is beyond understanding for me, they seem radicalized in a religious way, but violent and intent on mass killing like a lot of disaffected young people who do these sprees can be. so a weird combination of mass killer with religious elements. we are all trying to make sense of this. Just mentioning that they are indeed muslims–and that their internet presence reveals a religious bent–does not make me the equal of fox news. jeez.
Elizabelle
April 19 is action packed yet again. Lexington/Concord in 1775. The original Patriots’ Day. Then:
Branch Davidians/Waco
McVeigh/Oklahoma City
For comic relief, Ratzinger elected pope on April 19.
scav
@Lurking Canadian: Far enough east to ignore the whole “Caucasian” label too. It’s not like the Caucacus Mountains or Chechen people play any important role in the traditional definition of same.
Raven
@Poopyman: of the bag?
JPL
My friends daughter is now being evacuated with hubby, two dogs, and 4 months old.. They can’t take the car.
MikeJ
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I’m listening to the police radio and checking boston.com’s live feed.
Police being told to get behind cover not concealment, cover.
AxelFoley
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
artem1s
wbur.org has a live stream and is talking to a kid that may have gone to high school with the younger suspect.
the brother is evidently much older, possibly about 26?
martha
@Raven: good luck to you both…she’ll have it easier than you today I think, especially if Fox is on the TVs…UGH…
Raven
@martha: nah, I’m
In her little room, they just wheeled her out.
Raven
@martha: nah, I’m
In her little room, they just wheeled her out.
MikeJ
Checking open door at 33 Quimby, right by Willow park. 3 uparmored humvees en route.
Raven
No tv
rikyrah
woke up at 4am…usually turn on the radio to listen for the weather…heard this news, and had to turn on the tv
NotMax
@Highway Rob
Chechnya is not a country*, the Chechen Republic is an autonomous republic within Russia, created when the Ingush-Chechen ASSR (Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic) was split into the Republic of Ingushetia and the Chechen Republic after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
*That’s pretty much what the two wars since the collapse of the Soviet Union were about. Autonomous republics are denied recognition of the right of leaving the Russian federation under the Russian legal system.
maurinsky
I don’t think it matters if the separatist movement in Chechnya was 10-15 years ago. My father was at one time supportive of the IRA because of events that happened 800 years ago. When people feel wronged, there is not usually a time-frame on their need to get vengeance.
WereBear
I don’t expect wingnuts to understand the irony, but it’s hard to get more “Caucasian” than Chechens.
Mystical Chick
Oh and they’re Muslim. The RWNJs are gonna have a field day with that one. (sigh) I feel for all those who are peaceful Muslims – why does this keep happening?
In the words of that great philosopher Sarah Palin “Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate.” Indeed.
And the fear porn! Oh my god! I am so not putting on the television.
Hill Dweller
@MikeJ:
Sounds like there are a few too many trying to be a hero, and they’re losing their perimeter’s shape.
Great, the media is wondering around. Morons.
Keith G
@Betty Cracker: You are absolutely right. They might have just been upset about this season’s American Idol.
Seriously though, Islamic based terrorism from that part of the world is a known quantity. it’s not unreasonable to talk about it as long as a standard caveats are issued.
handsmile
When I first heard the brothers may be Chechen (has that been confirmed btw?), I immediately thought of the 2004 Beslan school massacre and the 2002 attack on a Moscow theater:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis
Horrible slaughter of innocents, similar in that way to Boston.
aimai
@JPL: I’m so sorry! I hope the police have set up shelters for people. If they need a place to stay email me at my email address and they can come here. We are in cambridge.
MikeJ
Live shot from WBZ is showing Willow Park street sign.
liberal
First I heard “white guy”. Yay. At least no bombing runs. Then I heard “Russian”. OK. Not as inconsequential. But in the back of my mind I thought, “They can’t be Chechen, can they?”
Hmm…
liberal
@handsmile:
Agreed. But let’s not forget the much, much larger slaughter in Chechnya. (Doesn’t make the terrorists’ actions OK, of course.)
IIRC the situation had calmed down there, and Putin used it to stir things up and get more support, but my memory here is hazy.
Ramalama
@aimai: Brilliant idea. I hope the Boston Police do this with the wrestling coach, esp since WBUR just reported / Robin Young, that white hat never talked politics when going to Rindge & Latin.
Raven
@handsmile: yea but anytime we start screaming police brutally I check out that Moscow theater response.
Feudalism Now!
The guys tried to rob a 7-11. Why do we keep thinking they are terrorist masterminds instead of crazy people with a predilection for explosions? Two brothers built some of the most generic bombs out there and were caught by old fashioned police work like any other criminal. I am sure there will be some manifesto with the bombers justification. Maybe they were worked up over the lousy Harrison Ford movie, Air Force One? Who cares? The FBI and BPD will continue to follow leads and find more co-conspirators because these guys seem to be real bad at covering tracks. Go cops, be careful Boston.
MikeJ
Rocket in the basement, calling for EOD.
liberal
@AxelFoley:
Yeah, that’s funny.
There was an ABC/whatever producer who apparently got taken down by the cops. An attractive blonde woman. Not swarthy.
Highway Rob
@NotMax: Interesting. Clearly I’m not a psuedonym for Spence Ackerman.
(Speak the plain truth, I actually did check Wikipedia before posting my comment, but gave up on trying to understand the geopolitical history on just one cup of coffee and went with the shorthand “Chechnya” ’cause “Chechen Republic” doesn’t sound like a vodka.)
liberal
@Feudalism Now!:
I agree. When I heard it was brothers, I thought Columbine, though these guys seem to have done less planning.
MomSense
@max:
Oh wow. My Mom worked at Bunker Hill Community College for years. I used to love to go to work with her and play ping pong.
Persia
@Betty Cracker: I suspect it’s in part because it’s Friday and fewer people work anyway over the weekend. After a day or two the odds increase that the guy’s slipped out of the city. You’re right that it’s not practical for a few weeks but I think it makes sense to do it today.
EDIT: I’ve seen others point this out too, but hell, BJ is all about repeating yourself.
Betty Cracker
@Keith G: I understand what you’re saying, and maybe it will turn out to be another case of religious nutballism, but I’m not sure how we’re served by this speculation about it in the absence of facts.
Islamic extremist terrorism from that part of the world is a known quantity as you say. But so is American armed yahooism in response to Islamic extremist terrorism. Why chance that kind of reaction when we don’t even know what’s going on yet?
wuzzat
WBZ just aired an interview with the uncle of the suspect, who says his brother (suspect’s father) lives in Russia and that the kids have been here since around 2001.
liberal
@NotMax:
While of course everything is speculation at this point, there are a variety of reasons for bringing up the Muslim label. Like “Jeezus, not another excuse for clamping down on civil liberties and bombing the shit out of Muslims somewhere.”
NotMax
Raven, you’re not missing anything.
Idiocy alert: Scarborough trying to tie fertilizer explosion to terrorism (“We still don’t know what caused that explosion.”). Obliquely, but dragged it in to the Boston discussion.
weaselone
Wife warned me as I was leaving to go to work in Watertown at 6:30 AM. I’m honestly surprised by the bloodlust in the local media. I want to see the remaining culprit brought in so we have the opportunity to get some answers directly.
Also the breathlessness over inanities like the the Rindge and Latin School scholarship is just irritating. I want to keep abreast of the situation, but our infotainment complex is so vapid and irritating I have to struggle to resist harming my innocent TV.
beltane
@handsmile: And if you look up images of “Chechen people” you’ll see some incredibly gruesome images of victims of Russian torture. Lots of bad blood over in that part of the world, none of it having much to do with the US.
Face
Word is that they may have him cornered in a house. Im guessing he aint going alive
Ramalama
I have a really difficult time spending too much time listening to Bob Oakes on ‘BUR. Countless times I’ve snapped off the radio or started listening online to any other NPR station to get away from his voice.
beltane
@Betty Cracker: There are even serial killers who are Muslim. Crazy, I know.
Valdivia
ugh
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/04/boston-bombing-suspect-posted-video-al-qaeda-prophecy-youtube
Baud
@Face:
Might be better if he is killed. Otherwise we’ll have a big kerfuffle about Miranda warnings and not using waterboarding.
MikeJ
@Face: There was no foot chase, somebody saw a person wearing a hoody running through back yard. Cops showed up and found open doors on a few houses. Searching now.
Valdivia
so semi home grown aspiring terrorists?
WereBear
I’ve come to believe all terrorism masquerades under political motivations. Places of unrest are more likely to create people who crack under stress, and in turn, provide a handy excuse/focus to play out the violent power fantasies and paranoid delusions from people who have suffered trauma.
Recent studies support the view that suicide bombers aren’t “normal” people willing to give their life for the cause. They are suicidal people recruited by psychopaths who are willing to give others lives for their cause.
Because Ireland’s troubles were not solved by terrorism; I don’t know of any problems solved by terrorism. A rational political actor would conclude it doesn’t work, especially compared with the dazzling successes of non-violent protest, such as in India with Gandhi, and here in the states with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
For some reason, people who want to do evil also don’t want fingers pointed at them, saying they are Evil. They then come up with excuses about why they “had to” do this terrible thing.
From domestic violence to international terrorism… it’s the scale that varies. Not the motivations.
Orpho
RT @Boston_Police: #MediaAlert: WARNING: Do Not Compromise Officer Safety by Broadcasting Tactical Positions of Homes Being Searched.
Looks like they have a home surrounded, too, based on (slightly irresponsible) tweets at Boston.com that just vanished.
Debbie(aussie)
Time for sleep here in the land of Aus. Best wishes to those who live in Boston, may thos be resolved quickly and without further bloodshed.
Raven hope all goes well for your bride.
You are all in my thoughts. Deb
polyorchnid octopunch
http://johanneshirn.photoshelter.com/gallery/Will-Box-For-Passport/G0000VQW7v6xWA7o/ I don’t know if you folks have seen this yet, but the older brother was the subject of a photo essay about his aspirations as a professional boxer. A couple of interesting items: he said he has no American friends and just doesn’t understand them, and he hoped to qualify for the US Olympic boxing team.
Checking the link I suspect the site is getting hammered; it’s timing out right now.
polyorchnid octopunch
Also, I’m wondering if perhaps they’ve been coerced into doing this. I’m sure they have family back in Chechnya.
ETA: never mind, his youtube videos seem to put the lie to that conjecture.
MikeJ
Cops say he is posting online, “I’ll kill all you like you killed my brother.”
MazeDancer
@Feudalism Now!:
Robbing a 7/11 is saying “Here I am”. Carjacking? Not even leaving the area?
It’s like the firestorm, and controlling the authorities with this manhunt, and capturing the media was part of the goal of the terrible bombings.
If the media creates Russians are the good white people and Chechens are the bad brown Islamist terrorists, then it’s almost enough to imagine that Russians hired them.
MikeJ
@MikeJ: Not on his vk page, no idea where the cops got that, but that’s what they were saying on the radio.
Betty Cracker
@WereBear: Your theory makes a lot of sense to me.
dmsilev
@Orpho: Between that tweet and that FBI statement a couple of days ago, you get the feeling that various law enforcement agencies are not particularly impressed with how the media have handled themselves recently.
beltane
@Valdivia: Like a London scenario then. End times prophecies never lead to anything good. Shows that an actual terrorist network isn’t needed, bad ideas and bored young men are quite enough. How does one go about fighting bad ideas?
lojasmo
@Comrade Jake:
LOL. Boston PD just tweeted that they didn’t like that twatterer broadcasting BPD tactical positions.
debbie
@WereBear:
Not to mention that it’s been around since before the Roman Empire. Caleb Carr wrote a short book, “Lessons of Terror,” which basically cites how terrorism has always been a part of the human experience. The real lesson is that we never learn the lesson.
I always thought it would be interesting if someone reviewed each act in Carr’s book and counted up whether the terrorists achieved any of their aims or if they failed. Maybe if people saw how small the percentage of success was, they’d stop their bullshit and find more constructive ways to achieve their goals.
Chris
@c u n d gulag:
International jihadism (e.g. al Qaeda) pretty much takes it for granted that America is, to coin a phrase, the focus of evil in the modern world and the ultimate puppetmaster behind all oppression of Muslims everywhere. That’s actually their main innovation and a constant bone of contention with other groups like, say, Hamas – whether the target should be the “near enemy” (local oppressors) or the “far enemy” (the West) as the internationalists want.
Not that I’m claiming that WAS their motivation (we’ll find out later if they were even terrorists rather than regular assholes), but it’s one possible explanation.
MikeBoyScout
Just a thought.. Why anyone feels motivated to kill and kill indiscriminately is irrelevant. Killing is wrong.
It is far part time that we (all) teach and preach that the most effective vengeance is kindness towards thine enemy.
MomSense
@Comrade Jake:
Nobody expects to see a swat team and a cozy coupe in the same photo. Wow.
Bruce S
Mika has mastered a “let’s gin up hysteria” voice – and some idiot on FOX made reference to a “sleeper” cell since 9/11 – because these guys came here ten years ago at the age of nine. Also “American’s will be outraged @ a scholarship” one received. Cable news makes viewers stupid…24/7 news cycle is worst thing ever for journalism. It’s little more than stream of consciousness by the clueless
Orpho
@dmsilev: Well, when you’ve got gems like http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-boston-bombing-bad-journalism-fuels-terrorism-hysteria-20130418,0,7955456.story , you can hardly blame them for not being impressed, right?
liberal
@WereBear:
Mostly I agree, though one could call John Brown’s raid terrorism, and it helped start the Civil War, which got rid of slavery.
Keith G
@Betty Cracker: Both sides do it?
While I am just goofing you, I am cognisant of other people who just a few days ago were announcing (evidence free) with near certainty that this had to be the work of Tea Party inspired conservative militants. Now I read some of those same folks criticizing some rather intelligence-based assumptions on what may have been behind this tragedy.
arguingwithsignposts
@handsmile:
Other than that there are innocent people dead, this is not similar AT ALL to the Beslan school event.
FFS, people, stop drawing parallels where there are none.
beltane
@Bruce S: If the older brother had gotten a scholarship and done more with his life than hang around boxing clubs dreaming of jihad, we might not be in this situation today.
aimai
What did we learn when the Sniper thing was going down in Washington? This was some kind of master/adept, leader/led relationship. This is just a kid–led by/dominated by his older brother. I hope they at least try to talk this kid down but all this talk of torture and larger terrorist plots makes it impossible for them to get this kid to surrender. This is why torture and execution as methods of police work create more enemies than they end.
Anya
From the Guardian live feed:
How’s saying something is against his religion anti-American? When a Jehovah Witness says, celebrating “birthday is forbidden,” is that anti-American? THey’re just clutching at straws at this point.
Also, too, this whole thing teaches us that speculating is useless. Who would’ve thought that the bombers would turn out to be two refugees from Chechnya?
JPL
Well it is odd seeing my friends daughter and hubby’s condo on TV. This is crazy.
scav
@lojasmo: du-uh.
Punchy
This is going to 86 the immigration bill and likely revive the background checks bill. If Dems cant sell the public now on the need to verify nationality and shit before a sale, they never will.
handsmile
@liberal: , @Raven: ,
Agree with both these points, and both a reminder of how safe and secure, comparatively, the lives of most Americans are from such violence (inflicted by state security forces or from terrorists/freedom fighters). (cf. John Cole’s recent post)
liberal, my memory of the issue is less than crystalline itself, but my understanding is that the war between Chechnya and Russia never really “calmed down” in the 2000s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
ETA: liberal: you might find of interest (for later reading) this recent NYRB essay on the 1999 Moscow apartment building bombings)
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/nov/22/finally-we-know-about-moscow-bombings/?pagination=false
Valdivia
@beltane:
it seems that way. But of course the hoards of right wingers are now saying this proves there should be no immigration reform
fuckign idiots.
these were refugees! living here LEGALLY for 11 years, came as kids.
Alex S.
So I read the news and find myself in a weird parallel world that unfortunately happens to be real. Such a bizarre story… And it’s only going to cause even more tragedy and hate. It’s such a perfect storm for toxic conspiracy theories. And it’s going to leave nothing but confusion. If I had to guess I’d say they were exiled Chechnians who felt isolated from American society because of different values and constant suspicions. Their actions will only make it worse. I need to say something to let it make sense for me…
arguingwithsignposts
@Punchy:
THE PUBLIC WAS ALREADY SOLD! 90 percent of the public WANTS BACKGROUND CHECKS.
Take it up with the 46 idiots in the Senate, and the large number of NRA whores in the House.
Feudalism Now!
@liberal: Nope. That was a constitutional amendment. The Civil War got a lot of people killed.
WereBear
@Betty Cracker: Thanks! I would be glad to expand it into a guest post for Rumproast.
While the idea that these people are mentally ill is not particularly radical (most people would agree!) the excuses they offer for their behavior is all too easily passed around and taken at face value.
I see that as akin to accepting an abusive husband’s excuses that “dinner was late.”
NotMax
@WereBear
That is the important distinction between acts of terror (actions of lethality which foment fear and/or mayhem) and terrorism (deliberate targeting of civilians as a tool of political, ideological, religious, philosophical or otherwise dogmatic cause).
The muddying of terms (not so by you) has been distressing to watch.
beltane
@Valdivia: And millions of Latinos are scratching their heads saying “WTF does any of this have to do with us?”
liberal
@Feudalism Now!:
And you see slavery having ended without a civil war, how, exactly?
Morzer
The BBC was saying that the brothers may not in fact be Chechens and may have originated in Kazakhstan. So presumably the GOP will demand that the British extradite Borat as the mastermind behind it all.
liberal
@handsmile:
My recollection—very, very dim—is that General Lebed or someone got things to calm down a bit, and Putin stirred them back up (for domestic political reasons, as usual).
ericblair
@liberal:
Well, that and the King David Hotel bombing by Zionists, and the like: it might be like treason, where it never succeeds because if it does we don’t call it treason/terrorism anymore.
I’m not an expert in the Chechen war, but I would call it much more nationalistic than religious. There are millions of Muslims living in Russia who have no sympathy for the Chechens (who get caught up in racist police sweeps because they kinda sorta look like Chechens).
beltane
@Morzer: I wouldn’t put it past them, would you. Someone like Louie Gohmert really is that dumb.
Schlemizel
@WereBear:
I think you probably are right about this idea of what makes a mad bomber.
I would say one thing though, about the value of terrorism. If you look at it from the government standpoint the American Revolution was a terrorist act, several others too.
aimai
Russia has been at war with Chechnya for fucking ever–its a background war in Tolstoy, for g-d’s sake. There are Chechen expat communities and exiled families in lots of places. I presume that like any exiled community they live in a diaspora of the mind with connections and causes that isolate them from the surrounding community. The IRA in boston were like this–people lived ordinary lives here with families and jobs but continued to support violence at home. This has nothing much to do with specifically islamic issues so much as it does have to do with what it means to be alone, in exile, unsupported by family and community, thinking about the future in the context of the past.
rikyrah
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
You just clowning…LOL
Bruce S
@NotMax:
Morning Joe is at least as inane and reflexively hysterical as FOX – Worst show on cable, because ” liberal” elites tend to take that piece of shit seriously. Mika and Joe seemed bent on validating the delusions of crazy people who might be prone to acts of violence, exaggerating their potential impact – “Boston in grip of terror!” It’s sick – they’re enablers of dangerous cranks. Why does Morning Joe hate America? First the austerity & deficit hysterics. Then “school reform”. Now “Terror!” Ratings über alles!
Bruce S
@NotMax:
Morning Joe is at least as inane and reflexively hysterical as FOX – Worst show on cable, because ” liberal” elites tend to take that piece of shit seriously. Mika and Joe seemed bent on validating the delusions of crazy people who might be prone to acts of violence, exaggerating their potential impact – “Boston in grip of terror!” It’s sick – they’re enablers of dangerous cranks. Why does Morning Joe hate America? First the austerity & deficit hysterics. Then “school reform”. Now “Terror!” Ratings über alles!
aimai
Russia has been at war with Chechnya for fucking ever–its a background war in Tolstoy, for g-d’s sake. There are Chechen expat communities and exiled families in lots of places. I presume that like any exiled community they live in a diaspora of the mind with connections and causes that isolate them from the surrounding community. The IRA in boston were like this–people lived ordinary lives here with families and jobs but continued to support violence at home. This has nothing much to do with specifically islamic issues so much as it does have to do with what it means to be alone, in exile, unsupported by family and community, thinking about the future in the context of the past.
Morzer
@beltane:
I keep wondering how long it will be before John McCain pops up to explain that we really should have gone to war for Georgia because that would have shown the Chechens/Kazakhs/Assorted Central Asians that we were on the side of FREEDOM (TM).
handsmile
@arguingwithsignposts:
And that was the only point of comparison that I was making (prompted by the rumor (?) that the Boston bombers were Chechens). I am more than slightly aware of the vast differences between the three incidents cited. You might want to calm down a bit yourself.
brettvk
i realize it’s questionable to express anything but disgust for a boy who murdered people, but my god, he’s so young to have totally destroyed his life..
https://twitter.com/MassStatePolice/status/325233998722920448/photo/1
Melville
Does anyone remember that Putin “offered help” in solving the Boston Marathon bombing shortly after it happened? ( http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2013/04/16/Putin-offers-Obama-aid-in-Boston-Marathon-bombing-investigation/UPI-59841366130396/ ) It sounds like he knew something was up.
magurakurin
@Anya:
This is very true. I was absolutely sure this would turn out to be some home-grown nutjobs. I was wrong.
But, in a way, I am actually very much relieved. A new civil war really, really would be a bad thing. It’s good to know that the hate on the Right hasn’t in fact bubbled over into an orgy of violence.
And there is no fucking way in hell that the US is going to be doing any bombing in Chechnya. Don’t think ole Vlad would be down with that. So, there’s that.
liberal
@ericblair:
Actually, I thought about that one, too, but I didn’t post it because I’m not that sure how it fits in with the Zionists’ attempts to create Israel and free it from the British.
WereBear
Oh, it was definitely terrorism. And a lot of terrorism is specifically aimed at creating a greater conflagration. But we don’t call what Manson’s followers did “terrorism” even though it was stated as such, as a provocation to start a race war.
We call Manson a psychopath, and his followers mentally ill, and we lock them all up.
One could also say that the Southern culture had been practicing terrorism to keep their fears of slave revolts at bay. And it “worked,” since slavery was still in place and revolts were swiftly quashed. However, the cruelty involved was part of what started the abolition movement; which was generally non-violent.
I’m saying they were all psychopaths and mentally ill followers. Our human minds seem to think bigness implies something different than what we readily recognize on a small scale.
arguingwithsignposts
@handsmile: then that’s really not much of a point, is it? Horrible slaughter of innocents? That’s happened how many times? You could draw that analogy with basically any event involving people killing more than one other person.
I’m sorry, but I’m more pissed at the behavior of the people who make stupid connections when there are none, and the hivemind rush to speculate on scraps of information that this thing has spawned almost than I am at the media.
You want to know why “The Media” acts the way they do? Look in the mirror.
Raven
@magurakurin: yea, that’s a comfort cuz we would NEVER go after the wrong country.
Morzer
@aimai:
Yes and no. The IRA got (and sometimes still gets) a lot more covert (and sometimes not so covert) sympathy from Americans than anyone has ever thought of giving the Chechens.
FWIW, there seems to be some evidence that the older brother had become increasingly conservative in his Islamic beliefs. He supposedly stated that Thanksgiving was haraam (forbidden) and so on and so forth. Which, I guess, puts him in agreement with what most of our conservative businessmen would like to do.
beltane
@brettvk: God, he looks a lot like my oldest son. That hair, I’m glad he has it short at the moment.
liberal
@Morzer:
That’s still my #1 reason for being glad Obama defeated McCain. I was really worried he’d get us in a war with Russia. Not likely, but the stakes were high. McCain has a screw loose, IMHO.
Higgs Boson's Mate
Some great speculation here. I’ll go with the idea that they’re Martians, enraged by the presence of the Rovers.
Persia
@brettvk: I know. He’s a fucking kid. Folie a deux maybe? I’m having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around it.
NotMax
@Bruce S
Oh, no argument from me. Have been referring to Morning Joe as a multi-hour circle jerk for years and years. And try to avoid having it pollute my TV.
Alas, Raven, who usually has the depth of fortitude to keep track and snark on it for B-Jers, is attending to his wife and her operation today, so felt a little compelled to step in.
Morzer
@Melville:
Probably standard-issue, pre-emptive ‘goodwill’ rather than any sign of knowledge.
Bruce S
Forgive multiple posts – my iPhone is a serial liar re “comment not published”
Morzer
@Bruce S:
I don’t mean to be PC here, but that’s just further proof that Apple is part of the liberal conspiracy to take away your rights!
Keith G
By the way here is an interesting read what could be the new look of terrorism. Sorry about not formatting the link but I have trouble doing that on my mobile device.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/18/forget_what_you_think_you_know_al_qaeda_terrorism
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
CBS just tried to argue down someone going all in on “international connections”.
magurakurin
@Raven:
good point. Iran is pretty damn close…well by the dead-reckoning that the Neocons prefer.
brettvk
@Persia: When the FBI released the two pictures, my thought was that it was a DC Sniper sort of situation, with a psychotic mentor and an accomplice in his thrall. The lack of an ideological underpinning seemed to chime with that. I wonder if FBI psychologists can work out a detection/prevention plan for this pattern of terrorist threat.
WereBear
Well, this is what the paranoid do. Fundamentalism, whether it’s Christian or Islamic, involves the drawing of tighter and tighter boundaries. This keeps out threatening elements from the world outside, the conventional explanation, but I believe no one recognizes it also creates a kind of “mental corset” designed to keep the sufferer’s brain from exploding from all the stress.
Superstition, at base.
Morzer
@magurakurin:
And indeed, North Korea is practically their next-door neighbor who comes over for barbecue on Sundays.
Raven
@NotMax: my cable company moved msbnc to the digital tier so I don’t have it on near as much anymore in the morning. Just that 30 minutes before I get the dogs out. Report from OR is everything iz peachy. 66 cents eggs in the cafeteria too!
aimai
@Morzer:
That’s my point–because there was an large and established exile community here the local fundraising and even miltary action of the IRA went on largely untouched, unreported. They were hiding in plain sight because they were supported by a large and established community. The difference between the IRA and these guys isn’t religion or even public support–its location, location, location. These kids were in a exile position with out support–that’s why there was no where for them to go to ground.
My guess is that the older brother was the motive force for the act precisely because he was the more at sea–he’s the one who didn’t have friend and a community here, and nowhere he wanted to go back to. He was the one who was caught between two worlds.
scav
@Raven: Congrats on the ER and may cheap eggs be of the desired consistency as well!
Morzer
@WereBear:
The bleakest irony here is that some of the biggest conservative warmongers who are going to howl loudly for revenge are people who have hated Boston as a godless liberal city all of their lives.
magurakurin
@Morzer:
Actually, being that North Korea really is my next door neighbor, I’d be a little bit happy if they took Kim out.
p.s. I know it would be an unmitigated disaster of a blood bath and really wouldn’t be good…not one little bit, but…there are moments….
Morzer
@aimai:
It might be that the older brother wanted to prove himself in the eyes of the younger one. He seems to have been going nowhere and that might have pushed him into doing something to win ‘respect’.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven: Nice to see some happy news.
Mike E
@liberal: McCain, war with Russia? That 2 faced political coward? LOL
Bruce S
@beltane:
You’ve hit on another likely tragedy of this godawful set of events – dynamics between an older and younger brother. Stuff probably best unraveled in something like a novel – not cable news.
Morzer
@magurakurin:
My wife’s family live in Seoul, so she’s understandably not eager to see a war break out. She’s been quite grumpy lately because my parents keep asking her about North Korea. They want to show their concern and affection for her, but she would rather not think about it every time they talk.
NotMax
@Raven
Good to hear good news.
Also, 30 minutes is 31 more minutes than I can usually stomach.
magurakurin
@Morzer:
I bet. Living in Seoul must get heavy at times. They are the ones who will take the brunt if the shit hits the fan. I only went to Seoul once about 15 years ago. One night there were a bunch of sirens and voices barking orders over megaphones. It turned out there was some big fire a few blocks away from the hotel we were staying at. But that night I just lay awake staring at the ceiling wondering if the strange voices in a language I couldn’t understand at all were saying “The North is coming, the North is coming.” Living there must be tough when the North is stirring up the pot. It’s a little unnerving in Japan, can’t imagine it in Seoul.
Bruce S
@Morzer:
Apple took away my rights when they released Final Cut X. Used to love ’em – now they’re just another crap company like Microsoft making a buck on lowest common denominator.
Ramalama
@Bruce S: what do you mean? My earlier version of Final Cut Studio always only allowed 2 computers to use it. Did the version X cut it down to 1 computer (or ask that you name your first born son ‘Mac’?)
Mike in NC
@Mike E: McCain and the neocons wanted to intervene in the Russia-Georgia dispute. Recall the “We are all Georgians” bullshit. One of his staffers had financial interests.
Bruce S
@Ramalama:
They made it a “prosumer” product, killing a lot of functionality and breaking the upgrade path – essentially eliminating the Studio & Server products that a lot of people had come to rely on. But why worry about old customers with complex requirements when you are making a killing selling Lady Gaga tunes?
AxelFoley
@Melville:
Interestink. Veddy, veddy interestink.
Tonal Crow
If we had banned guns, the suspects would have killed and seriously wounded police with hubcaps, right guntards?
Ruckus
@Schlemizel:
The american revolution was an act of war. The start of it was a staged public act not intended to harm anyone, only property of the entity they were attacking.
An act of terror or a terrorist attack is intended to kill innocent people for retribution for some slight, real or imagined, with the goal of awareness of the slight. Acts of terror or terrorist acts almost always cause the opposite of the desired effect.
Tonal Crow
@Ruckus:
Really? The 9/11 terrorists caused us to jerk substantially toward the totalitarian right, which is not philosophically far from the terrorists’ political preferences.
Ruckus
@Tonal Crow:
No, no, no. You are thinking the wrong way. Teh hubcaps can be used for defense. Hold one up and it stops a 50cal sniper rifle bullet. We need more hubcaps, not fewer. Hubcap bullet proof vests, sharpened hubcaps to be used like throwing stars.
Gezzze use your head man there are so many uses for hubcaps, both offensive and defensive.
Ruckus
@Tonal Crow:
As you quoted I did say almost. And some took it as an act of war. The idiots of course, but still. And being idiots they got it all wrong, causing huge loss of life and having exactly the opposite effect of what they stated.
Personally I feel the terms, act of terror, terrorism and act of war can have blurred boundaries. I think the case could be made that Bush’s act was terrorism, just on a very large scale. It was a premeditated attack on innocent people with the intent of killing them for something they didn’t have any part in.