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They Say Old Habits Are Hard to Break

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Hey, since we’re making shit up, here’s an idea: If we do capture #2, let’s whisk him to Logan, put him on a private jet, and fly him to Gitmo so we can waterboard him properly. Then, after, oh, six months on bread, water and daily anal probing, we’ll make up a whole new set of rules just for this scary boogey man. We’ll model them on the UCMJ so we can call it “due process”, but make them just a wee bit different in ways that will fuck him over. Then we’ll spend months jacking him around, along with the poor lawyers who have to figure out our kangaroo court. And, still, we won’t release him.

Or maybe, and I’m spitballing here, so bear with me, we could follow the fucking law, read him his rights as soon as he’s arrested, try him in the proper court of jurisdiction with a court-appointed lawyer, in public, just like we do every other citizen of the US, who’s presumed innocent until proven guilty.

One of these courses of action will show the world that we are a great country. The sad fact is that Lindsey Graham, who’s passed the bar and is a fucking Colonel in the JAG, thinks it’s the former, not the latter.

Reader Interactions

111Comments

  3. 3.

    Punchy

    Turns out that these clowns did NOT rob a 7/11 last nite. So….I ask: what else about yesterday’s story is fibbed/exaggerated? Can the media get any of this accurate?

  5. 5.

    Gravenstone

    Graham isn’t letting his JAG experience color his views in any way. He’s letting his abject terror at being primaried by a Tea Bagger do all the coloring for him.

  6. 6.

    Face

    Does Ms. Grayham know that he’s a U.S. citizen?

    Damn scary shit if the answer to the above is “yes” and he still advocates for his bullshit.

  7. 7.

    The Dangerman

    If the #Senator from South Carolina has ties to a closet that information could be a treasure.

  9. 9.

    Baud

    Rudy on Chris Matthews said Obama has been doing a good job and that people shouldn’t live in fear.

    Go figure.

  10. 10.

    scav

    be right handy, the ability to hypothesize foreign connections and ditch whatever law we don’t much feel like following at the exact moment.
    Wonder if it would work on bankers and hedge fund CEOs with ties to international money laundering and drug money transfers?

  11. 11.

    jl

    @beltane:

    Of course he does, if it means he can scare up a few more votes against whatever teabagger nutcase runs against him in the upcoming primary. But if it won’t, then he doesn’t.

    Unbelievable. A few days ago I made the comment that I hoped the peanut gallery would not advocate Gimo-ing anybody who committed this atrocity. And after I posted that I thought my comment might way over the top and unfair to the peanut gallery, and almost requested it be deleted.

    But, sadly, no, my comment wasn’t unfair.

    What little, and as far as I know, unverified info I’ve heard on the radio news about the inspiration for this is some eccentric Islamic radical out of Australia (Edit: or was it Austria?) raving about a holy war coming out of Turkistan region.

    As far as I know, that fits pretty well with a mentally unbalanced guy from the South who (maybe?) did it because his Elvis costume told him to.

  14. 14.

    Short Bus Bully

    That wicked old queen is working double overtime to make torture replace Miranda rights….

  15. 15.

    matt

    if we capture this guy, we should put his head up lindsey graham’s ass until he confesses.

  16. 16.

    Another Halocene Human

    I wish I had a twitter account to tell Sen Graham to STFU pronto. Since Massachusetts roundly whips SC on every development index ever invented, I think our guys can take care of this just find without your help, Senator.

    Grrrr.

  17. 17.

    rea

    And of course, there’s not the slightest reason to believe that the suspect is a member of a larger organization, so what would be the point in holding him for intelligence gathering purposes? Waterboard him until he tell us who was selling marijuana to him and his college friends?

  18. 18.

    BGinCHI

    This is like asking your plumber to help you with your dissertation on Shakespeare’s relationship to John Foxe’s polemical historiography.

  19. 19.

    jl

    Nest time crazed hick and gracious courtly pillar of the VSP journalistic village Schieffer has Graham on his show as a serious wise universal authority on everything, I wonder if this little outburst will come up?

    Edit: On other hand, maybe Graham only goes on the Schieff show to repeat whatever McGrumps has to spew that day, so maybe never mind.

  20. 20.

    gnomedad

    Every time something like this happens, clowns like Graham call for some variant of mob justice because the base thinks it’s just fine and it makes “liberals” look like they’re defending evil people by standing up for the law.

  21. 21.

    Ash Can

    @hildebrand: If these suspects were pasty white Southern boys, Graham would be blaming Obama for enacting policies that eroded their family life to the point where they were forced into making criminal mistakes.

  22. 22.

    ? Martin

    Lay off Lindsay, you can’t just jump straight to crushing a guys testicles. You need a little rights abuse foreplay first.

  23. 23.

    burnspbesq

    @matt:

    if we capture this guy, we should put his head up lindsey graham’s ass until he confesses.

    What if Graham comes before he confesses?

  24. 24.

    Trollhattan

    “intelligence gathering purposes”? WTF, quiz him at Gitmo about his wrestling coach’s secrets for winning? Aren’t there some murder charges to handle?

    How long would this nitwit last in a real job?

  25. 25.

    Todd

    Is it just me, or does a lot of this get laid off on the cold war and its aftermath? What’s the Reagan conservative role in all the fuckups?

    And was the world a better place with a strong USSR?

  26. 26.

    Schlemizel

    Come on people ol linseed only wants to follow a fine Southern tradition: Lynch first, trial later.

    How sad that he has so little faith in the American Justice system

  27. 27.

    danimal

    If he’s a treasure trove of information, perhaps we should avoid torture. Torture produces a lot of false information, even if there is some useful info included between gasps for air.

    I’d advocate waterboarding Senator Graham, but it’s obvious he doesn’t have any useful information to share.

  30. 30.

    Ben Franklin

    Well the Uncle seems convinced of their guilt…natch !

    Fry ’em in oil before he can talk.

  31. 31.

    Keith G

    Now I hope this guy gets taken alive. We need to go through the process of verifying our Constitutional values. The scary part is how easy it might be for the good guys to give in. Nonetheless, this fight needs to happen. The sooner the better.

  33. 33.

    Roger Moore

    @rea:
    Remember that the point of torture is usually to force a false confession, not to get accurate information. So if the war party is advocating torture, it’s probably to get him to claim ties to somebody they want to go to war with, like Syria or Iran.

  36. 36.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Why isn’t this idiot in a padded cell somewhere?

    Oh, right…Reagan “mainstreamed” the mentally ill back in the 80’s.

  37. 37.

    Trollhattan

    @Joseph Nobles:

    Here’s the one I saw.

    Two law enforcement officials familiar with the case said Tsarnaev ran over his own brother, who had been shot by police, as he fled police in Watertown. The brothers had tossed pipe bombs from their car at officers who pursued them into Watertown from Cambridge, authorities said.

    http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/04/18/mit-police-officer-hit-gunfire-cambridge-police-dispatcher-says/UAbtwLVGLwBE5VI7BUyQuL/story.html

  38. 38.

    Schlemizel

    @Ben Franklin:

    Heard the dad on BBC. He is sure the FBI will kill the boys because they have been set up. He feels there is no way those boys would do that.

    In addition to my feeling we need a real trial with honest results for the good of the country I also hope we get this last guy alive or else the tinfoil hat brigade will forever sound like dear old dad.

  39. 39.

    ? Martin

    @Punchy:

    Can the media get any of this accurate?

    Last night the DA indicated in a press release that they did it. Can’t blame the media for reporting what the DA told them in a formal statement. They blew a lot of other things, but I don’t think you can fault them on that one.

  40. 40.

    Wag

    @matt:

    No. We should put Lindsey Graham’s head up the perp’s ass, not th other way around. We need to be able to hear what the perp says and we need to stop listening to the good Senator. Mission accomplished.

  42. 42.

    pseudonymous in nc

    You really have to wonder what kind of fetish shit Huckleberry keeps in his basement. [/brainbleach]

  44. 44.

    Todd

    Oh good. Blitzer is asking reporters about what their thoughts, feelings and reportage is.

    He’s adding so much value. So informative. So erudite.

  45. 45.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Todd:

    If TV “journalists” could be sued for malpractice, Leslie Blizter would be buried in motions for discovery.

  49. 49.

    Valdivia

    what’s up with MSNBC going full Drudge on the Al queda connection?

    I also am happy to see that they are now saying on the rigthy blogs that the kid was an Obama supporter. shoot me now.

  50. 50.

    Todd

    I gotta say, I’ve been impressed by the Boston cops and pols. They seem to have their shit straight.

    If Boston weren’t numbingly cold, I could consider moving there.

  52. 52.

    Joseph Nobles

    @Trollhattan: Oh, I know the story came from cops. I’d like to see outside verification on it, though. If cops had run over Tamarlan, why not blame it on the brother, you know. And I like my tin foil hats folded into a tri-corner hat, why do you ask?

    In other news, Graham has deleted the tweets wistfully wishing a drone were over Boston and the homeland being the battleground. Seems he pissed off everybody and for Pete’s sake, he’s trying to get elected. Oh, the one about not reading Miranda rights is still there, why do you ask?

  53. 53.

    bobbo

    If Lindsay Graham knew his grammar, he would know that he just expressed hope that he would be treated as an enemy combatant if he is captured.

  54. 54.

    Hill Dweller

    @Valdivia:

    what’s up with MSNBC going full Drudge on the Al queda connection?

    Because 90% of MSNBC’s coverage is every bit as wingnutty as CNN and/or Fox.

    Also too, MSNBC has been falling behind HLN and CNN in the ratings. I suspect part of the AQ angle is borne of desperation.

  55. 55.

    LAC

    The only advice that tired old queen should be giving is how to make it look like you are alone in a public bathroom while getting a handy from a rent boy.

  57. 57.

    longtime lurk

    I agree with the sentiment of this post, but you all should realize that the Obama DOJ official policy is that terrorism suspects should not be read their Miranda rights so that they can be more thoroughly interrogated.

    So, by all means, criticize Butters — but Obama and Holder deserve the same treatment.

  58. 58.

    Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn

    So this dude, if he’s captured alive, won’t have a clue that he could just refuse to say a single blessed thing unless he gets the idea from this little-known, obscure “Miranda” reading? JAGass.

  60. 60.

    MattR

    @Joseph Nobles:

    Oh, I know the story came from cops. I’d like to see outside verification on it, though.

    Personally, I have found police officers to be huge gossips in situations like these. Official spokesmen are usually pretty careful about what they confirm to the public, but I would take with a grain of salt any overheard conversation between two cops on the street or what a police officer told one of the residents

  62. 62.

    Jay in Oregon

    I wonder how Sen. Graham’s respected colleague, Sen. Rand Paul, feels about this suggested lack of due process for an American citizen on American soil.

    Or is it only bad if the Boston Police use drones to do it?

  65. 65.

    mclaren

    Lindsey Graham may have passed the par and be a colonel in the Judge Advocate General’s corps and think waterboarding and kidnapping suspects is fine ‘n dandy, but Barack Obama taught constitutional law — and he clearly thinks the president of the United States ordering the murder of U.S. citizens without even accusing them of a crime is fine ‘n dandy. Because Barack Obama has done it.

    Glass houses, Democrats. Throwing stones.

    I don’t see a lot of difference twixt the two parties as far as the post 9/11 police state in America is concerned. Both Democrats and Republicans hate the Bill of Rights and despise the constitution. Both Democrats and Republicans advocate a model of law followed by the former Soviet Union: guilty by reason of suspicion, torture until the suspect confesses, murder people without a trial or even an arraignment.

  66. 66.

    Mayken

    One of these courses of action will show the world that we are a great country. The sad fact is that Lindsey Graham, who’s passed the bar and is a fucking Colonel in the JAG, thinks it’s the former, not the latter.

    Unfortunately so do a fucking lot of other Americans, including some of my beloved friends and family. It just makes my blood boil! I just want to scream when interacting with them in any way.

    I am so glad to have a place I can go that where people get it.

  67. 67.

    Ben Franklin

    @mclaren:

    So, both sides do it? Must be a bicameral conspiracy. There doesn’t seem to be information to the contrary.

  68. 68.

    beltane

    Poor Czech Republic. Their embassy just had to issue a statement clarifying that they are not one and the same as Chechnya and that a Czech is not a Chechen. I can just imagine all the misspelled hate mail they’re receiving from Americans whose command of geography is even worse than their command of the English language.

  69. 69.

    Baud

    @longtime lurk:

    Holder floated the idea in May 2010 and then seems to have done nothing since then (at least as far as I can find). Since it’s almost three years later, I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as administration policy unless and until they suggest it again.

  72. 72.

    EconWatcher

    The more i think about it, shutting down Boston is embarrassing. Who are we? Cowering in fear over one (admittedly twisted, armed and dangerous) 19-year old? Yeah, post his face everywhere, put everyone on high alert, have the police out in droves. But shut down a major American city? IThat’s nutty and cowardly. I’m not in Boston, but I think I’d feel the same way if I were. He ain’t the Luftwaffe.

  73. 73.

    azrev

    People tend not to be arrested first and then questioned. Rather, they are questioned then arrested and it is only at that point that Miranda Rights are read. Lindsay Graham and every other attorney knows this.

  74. 74.

    daverave

    Not that he probably doesn’t deserve it but it is my expectation that there is no way that this kid comes out of this alive… even if he was to walk out of his hiding place buck nekkid with his hands in the air waving a white flag some exhausted, trigger-happy LEO (maybe from the DEA, ATF, Parks + Rec or some other lesser agency) will put a slug in him, all of the other LEO’s will join in and he’ll be swiss-cheesed. I mean if they are all getting satisfaction from the photo of his dead brother, imagine the thrills to be “The Hero” who takes out the other one. Interviews with all of the morning news shows to follow, maybe a book deal a la OBL.

    Yeah, I’m a cynic.

  75. 75.

    Tonal Crow

    To paraphrase:

    The last thing we need is to read a gun offender Miranda rights, telling him to remain silent. If captured, we should seriously consider holding each one as an enemy combatant for intelligence purposes. Gun violence kills four times as many people as died in 9/11, each year, year after year. It’s time we got to the bottom of this conspiracy to destroy America.

    Did I get that right, Senator Graham?

  76. 76.

    MattF

    Lindsey really really really wants to be reelected. And his reelection is a great honor that we should all accept and work for with a combination of boundless fervor and profound gratitude. The Bill of Rights is minor compared to that.

  78. 78.

    LanceThruster

    Sideshow Bob: You can’t do this! I saved the children’s lives, I’m a hero!

    Cecil Terwilliger [craftily]: Tell them they’ll live to regret this.

    Sideshow Bob: You’ll live to regret this!

    [Realizing]

    Sideshow Bob: Oh, thanks a lot, now *I* look crazy.

    [Cecil smiles smugly]

  81. 81.

    beltane

    @Ben Franklin: The world used to be so simple for Americans. Humanity was divided into four quadrants: white, yellow, black, and brown. Now our nation is confronted with people who are sort of white, but who have strange sounding names which are not easily color-coded. Maybe they should be referred to as earth-toned people.

  82. 82.

    scav

    @beltane: Well, if we’re after those sneaky Kolache eaters, there’s a nest of long-term immigrants in West comma Texas, With boom, possibly even one with some sort of accent — well, drawl.

  83. 83.

    James Gary

    @beltane:

    I refer you to Paulie Walnuts’ line from the deservedly-famous “Pine Barrens” episode of “The Sopranos”: “He’s an interior decorator! He killed eighteen Czechoslovakians!”

  85. 85.

    Roger Moore

    @longtime lurk:
    Strictly speaking, the Miranda warning is only relevant to self-incrimination, so the police might reasonably refrain from giving it if they think they already have enough evidence to convict and believe it might discourage the suspect from revealing information about his conspirators. It might even work better with suspects who know their rights and think they can get away with saying things because they haven’t been read their rights.

  87. 87.

    patroclus

    Shots fired – sirens on the way. This may be his last stand – hopefully, we’ll take him alive.

  89. 89.

    Davis X. Machina

    Sister in Nonantum just SMS’d about more gunfire across the river in Watertown.

  91. 91.

    ? Martin

    @longtime lurk:

    I agree with the sentiment of this post, but you all should realize that the Obama DOJ official policy is that terrorism suspects should not be read their Miranda rights so that they can be more thoroughly interrogated.

    Well, I think people have a distorted notion of what Miranda does. It only allows statements to be admitted in trial.

    In many terrorism cases, statements are hardly needed to get a conviction. They sure as hell wouldn’t be needed in this case. So, get them to talk without Miranda, use that information to get new physical evidence, and never bring the statements into trial.

    At the same time, it’s pretty pointless to not read them their rights. It’s not like it prevents someone from being questioned.

  94. 94.

    patroclus

    Just as everyone was told they could come outside, all the reporters heard shots fired and the police are all converging on one position with the public shouting “go get him”. This may be it.

  95. 95.

    Heliopause

    I think whoever owns the West Fertilizer Company as well as the local Zoning Commissioner should be declared enemy combatants*.

    *Not really. Nobody should be, not even people who destroy hundreds of lives with their negligence.

  96. 96.

    Ben Franklin

    @beltane:

    Most ex-Soviet Muslims are secular and many don’t believe in God or think religion is important

    I did not know this. ‘Anarchists’ is another surprise].

  97. 97.

    Wilson Heath

    I confess, I was not previously aware Graham was in the military or a lawyee. Still, as long as I’ve been aware of him, I’ve known that he is a complete jag officer. Major league.

  98. 98.

    Suffern ACE

    @beltane: ah. I’m not sure about the father/son drama, but that does clear up why they were granted assylum ten years ago. Thanks for that.

  99. 99.

    Emperor of Icecream

    Righteously right rant! (I.E. the original post. Haven’t had a chance to read other comments but can only assume I echo others.)

  101. 101.

    Suffern ACE

    @lojasmo: yeah. And Ben Franklin is making more sense in his explanation than lynsay graham. Not that that is new. It’s sadly typical.

  103. 103.

    Citizen Alan

    So, get them to talk without Miranda, use that information to get new physical evidence, and never bring the statements into trial.

    Usually, IIRC, this runs afoul of what’s called the “fruit of the forbidden tree” doctrine, which says that any evidence obtained as a result of improper searches or interrogations is itself inadmissible. What usually happens, as I understand it from friends who are criminal defense attorneys, is that the cop reads the Miranda warnings in a bored, unaffected voice, then gets the suspect to sign an acknowledgement that he’s received the warnings, and then starts questioning him. Because unless the suspect affirmatively states that he’s not talking and he wants his lawyer, they can ask him questions all night long.

  107. 107.

    BruceJ

    In related news, Kimberley-Clark stock surged as Sales of Depends skyrocketd, fuelled by millions of wingnuts pissing their pants in terror.

  108. 108.

    Scamp Dog

    @matt: Wouldn’t that require removing Graham’s head first? And to be honest, I’m not sure that’s possible.

  111. 111.

    burnspbesq

    @longtime lurk:

    So? This guy’s not a terrorism suspect, he’s a suspect in several murders, including the murder of a cop. If you think that the Suffolk County DA’s office is going to let the FBI fuck up their case, you don’t understand how joint task force cases work.

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