As I write this, a very confused homeless drunk in Watertown is trying to figure out why everyone is out in the streets applauding him.
Back to DaVinci’s Demons and then Real Time. It’s going to be nothing but hard core wanking on the networks for the rest of the night, so I am signing off and watching some shows.
Violet
Real Time is going to be kind of interesting.
Baud
I like wanking.
Culture of Truth
I gotta see DaVinci’s Demons. I am like a huge Da Vinci fan. I once studied with a prominent Da Vinci scholar,
Redshirt
I like Miranda. And Rights. And freedoms and stuff.
Elizabelle
NBC says the President will speak in a bit.
And then on to DaVinci’s Demons, etc.
Culture of Truth
BTW John, you can not mirandize someone and try them and still function as a democracy. Just not use those statements against the person in court. It, um, happens all the time.
David Koch
History’s greatest monster to address nation momentarily
Dee Loralei
What’s DaVinci’s Demons?
Culture of Truth
History’s greatest monster to address nation momentarily
Jimmy Carter? Did he finally finish his genocide against the guinea worm?
David Koch
@Redshirt:
she’s frekin’ hawt
dmsilev
@David Koch: Boston Mayor Menino? I mean, he mumbles a lot and things like that, but honestly he isn’t that bad.
RobertDSC-eMac 1.25
Glad the bombers have been dealt with.
So tired from this week.
Fort Geek
Just tell him he won the Marathon. Give him a beer.
Helen
@Redshirt: And good government. I love good government. This guy was caught cuzza good government. YAY good government.
raven
No Miranda
“There is a public safety exemption in case there is an issue of national security,” Ortiz said.
Schlemizel
@Culture of Truth:
No, no, no, Carter has not been the worlds greatest monster in years, he was replaced by the worlds greatest monster, Clinton in ’92 who had the title stripped from him in 2008 when the current WGM was named. Obama will hold the title till at least 2016 but will be supplanted by the next Democratic President
Made me think of this:
‘I am not the Dread Pirate Roberts’ he said. ‘My name is Ryan; I inherited the ship from the previous Dread Pirate Roberts, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Dread Pirate Roberts either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Roberts has been retired 15 years and living like a king in Patagonia.’
hildebrand
Did Ortiz just say that they did not (or are not going to) Mirandize the suspect?
Redshirt
@Dee Loralei: DaVinci, with moar boobs. Starz TV show.
raven
@hildebrand: There is a public safety exemption in case there is an issue of national security,” Ortiz said.
Keith G
The press conference..ugh!
One picky point: The lead FBI guy said “Justice is being served for the victims….”
I really dislike that formulation. The victims’ peace of mind (or worse yet, closure), while important, is not the purview of the criminal justice system. In fact, such considerations often hinder the process.
Anya
So, are they saying he wasn’t read his miranda rights?
MattR
Boat was outside the perimter (by about a block)
Spaghetti Lee
@Schlemizel:
Actually, Gabby Giffords got the title this week. Emotional bully of the NRA, you know.
Cacti
I had great fun in the ESPN comments section, pointing out that these guys were white dudes from eastern europe, and asking why white guys had such a history of setting off bombs in America (anarchists, KKK, McVeigh, Rudolph, etc.).
Baud
@hildebrand:
I missed that portion of the press conference, but it would be the height of stupid not to if they are going to question him.
In any event, every high-profile defense attorney in the country is going to be in Boston ASAP, so not really going to be an issue.
Keith G
@hildebrand: I feel she demurred on that point.
raven
Prez up next.
WaterGIrl
Waiting for the president to speak, and I saw Ortiz being asked about miranda rights. After what she apparently did with Aaron Swartz, I am repulsed by her and I can barely watch her speak. I hope she has very little involvement with this. She has lost all credibility with me, and I don’t trust her even one little bit.
Redshirt
@Cacti: If you want/must profile, than just stick with all males. Cause of, what, 96% of all the world’s violence?
JPL
@raven: Lindsay Graham can go home and suck it..
hildebrand
Forgive my ignorance of all of this – will they Mirandize after the suspect is out of medical danger? Will it happen later? How long can you wait?
raven
@Baud: They’ve got it covered.
khead
So, now that the bad guys have been caught and/or shot I can ask….
What is the deal with the hat worn by the Mass State Police dude?
Helen
@hildebrand: Wait, what? They have to read him his Miranda rights. He’s American.
David Koch
@Baud:
Word is he’s retaining Saul Goodman
rikyrah
POTUS is about to speak
WaterGIrl
@raven: That’s disappointing. I don’t see how they spin this as national security. Seems like more overreach from Ortiz.
Edit: okay, so we don’t know who all is involved with this or supplied weapons, so maybe it’s too soon to know.
Sayne
The US Attorney just confirmed, no Miranda warning given. He may be a murderer piece of shit, but he’s still an American citizen and he should get his Miranda warning. Not to do so is outrageous.
p.a.
James Harrison signs with Bungles.
Keith G
@Baud: They will question him. I imagine the federal death penalty will be a bargaining chip as will be the type of incarceration.
Violet
Is the suspect conscious? Did they confirm that? Maybe if he’s not, then he can be Mirandized. Dunno.
mainmati
@Violet: Real Time in 5…4…3…strange conversations ensue.
raven
@Baud:
FBI Website on this.
Spaghetti Lee
@Sayne:
Yeah, this strikes me as kinda skeezy. The test of stuff like the Miranda warning is if you can still use it in high-tension situations when it would be easy not to.
EDIT: Just saw on Maddow that the govt can only exempt someone from hearing their rights for 48 hours after capture. Meant to determine if he as accomplices still out there, etc. So that’s good, assuming it holds true.
raven
@Violet: see my post
JPL
@Sayne: how do you give him a miranda warning and how do we not know he will be given one.
This doesn’t make much sense to me but that might be cuz friends of mine live down the street on Norfolk st.
Baud
@raven:
Thanks. So it’s not general questioning.
Schlemizel
@Baud:
I hope he gets a very good one. I don’t want there to be any doubt. I don’t want anyone to be able to say he was railroaded. I want him to have the best trial America can offer as an example that we are better than his murderous types, better than we were under Bush, better than the sorts of countries who would put on a show trial then behead him.
I am not afraid of justice
Helen
Rachel says no Miranda. It’s the “Public safety exemption” that is in place for 48 hours to determine if there is imminent threat. I guess that’s the “ticking time bomb” bullshit.
But after 48 hrs do they have to read them Miranda?
OK I am scared. There’s an exception to Miranda for American citizens?
HOLY FUCK
ETA – Raven beat me to it.
raven
@Baud: Nope. Richard Engel just had a good explanation. They need to know what other threats may exist that he has knowledge of.
Elie
I am grateful that he was not killed by law enforcement… that there was some restraint and awareness..
Oh — such pain! No joy here — anywhere… the lost innocent lives of three days ago and the lost souls of these young men… I cannot feel but the tragedy and sadness of it all.
No parent thinks of their young newborn son as having this fate — of having him kill others and then in turn be killed or maimed in the progress of horror. What dark tragedy for all.
I cannot believe that all of us would not want to run away forever from the means of violence — the guns, the explosions and violence… why of why would a young man who just became an American citizen less than a year ago make this statement?
My original assessment at the beginning of this was that this was not just terrorism — but something also very personal. Two young men — lost in some horror that may have blended political themes with exasperation and frustration about their lives…
a 19 year old — caught in a boat. Lost in the sea of despair and in the heart of darkness…
scuffletuffle
@efgoldman: The one that practically covers his eyes…all the big boys wear them here. The grunts wear nifty hats with wide brims.
Redshirt
Is there any ruling about whether someone needs to be in a certain mental state/capacity in order to Miranda? For instance, if this guy was barely conscious upon being arrested, would it not apply?
Not like they can ask any questions at that time anyways.
raven
@Helen: Please read the entire page I posted.
khead
@efgoldman:
Col Tim Alban of the Mass State Police and his floppy hat. Just curious.
raven
The Quarles Court made clear that only those questions necessary for the police “to secure their own safety or the safety of the public” were permitted under the public safety exception.35 In U.S. v. Khalil, New York City police officers raided an apartment in Brooklyn after they received information that Khalil and Abu Mezer had bombs in their apartment and were planning to detonate them.36 During the raid, both men were shot and wounded as one of them grabbed the gun of a police officer and the other crawled toward a black bag believed to contain a bomb. When the officers looked inside the black bag, they saw pipe bombs and observed that a switch on one bomb was flipped.
hildebrand
@Baud: Right – the explanation and the distinction is very helpful.
Anne Laurie
@Elie:
Caught in a drydocked boat, to extend the metaphor. Dumbfck not going anywheres, not then or for a long time to come.
Mnemosyne
@hildebrand:
He doesn’t really need to be Mirandized until he’s in a condition where he can be questioned. Miranda covers your statements to police, so if he’s too medically unstable to be questioned by police, there’s no reason to do it.
They probably didn’t Mirandize him on the scene because they were still trying to figure out if there was an imminent public safety issue (ie unexploded bombs still laying around) and then because he was in no shape to be questioned anyway.
I didn’t see the press conference, but hopefully that asshole Ortiz was talking about him not being Mirandized immediately because the public safety issue wasn’t clear, not that he won’t be because TERROR!
raven
@hildebrand: Aw but lets freak out some more.
WaterGIrl
@raven: Thanks for that. I feel much better after reading what you posted and hearing what Richard Engel had to say about it. Richard Engel and Chris Hayes are the two media people I really trust.
Redshirt
Mass State police uniforms are kinda lame. The pants! They’ve got that side bulge for no obvious reason.
Spaghetti Lee
Man, Obama looks exhausted.
Keith G
@Redshirt: We do lead in the cases of blowing shit up on this sub-continent. As far as other types of violence/aggression, I am sure per capita stats would be interesting to mull over.
scav
So long as they follow the rules and not make shit up.
Culture of Truth
No, you don’t have to midandize an American or anyone else. It’s not an American right, though well advised and admirable that we encourage it.
1. Under the public safety exception you can briefly question and still have those statements be admissible.
2. They can wait forever, but statements may not be admissible.
3. They have let him invoke such rights, immediately. This is what interests me.
Helen
@Elie: To repeat and expand on what I said in the last thread.
So glad he was taken alive. We need him to talk. I am right now about 1/2 way through the book “Columbine.” Looking for an engrossing book? this is it. The parallels between these two cases are fascinating.
While the Columbine boy’s journals helped, talking to them after the fact would have been stunningly helpful to law enforcement and mental health professionals. We need to talk to this kid.
The parents of the Columbine killers, especially Dylan Klebold’s parents, truly had no idea, and neither did Dylan’s friends. It’s just sadness all around.
Anne Laurie
@Redshirt:
They’re jodphurs, carried over from when the staties went on horseback. Tradition!
raven
Oh, I see what the deal with Ortiz is.
David Koch
@Spaghetti Lee: being a monster is exhausting work.
Keith G
@Spaghetti Lee: No shit. 10:00 Frday night in one of the shittiest weeks in our recent history.
I bet he is spent. He needs to go upstairs and light one up. It’s almost 4/20.
Edit: Obama name checks Texas. Yeaaa! They haven’t forgot.
Baud
Obama saying more good stuff about rule of law that people will immediately ignore.
JPL
Wow.. Watching my friend’s daughter and family leave Norfolk Street this morning with baby and dogs in tow but not cats cuz there are so many hands was heartbreaking but not as heartbreaking as someone complaining about her neighbor’s rights.
also, too that was a good run on sentence..
Wag
PoTUS is kicking asses and taking care to make damn sure the rule of law is followed.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
So Bill Maher is on the ‘ISLAM IS UNIQUELY SUPER-MEGA EVILVIOLENT!!’ bandwagon. I liked him better when he was just blanketly anti-religion.
Redshirt
Totally Open Thread Question!
What’s the moral ruling on this theoretical situation:
You are single. He/she is not – they are married with kids. He/she wants to hook up.
What’s your moral culpability in that scenario? On a scale of 1-100, 1 being perfect morality, 100 being worse than Hitler/Stalin times a million.
MattR
@Keith G: I love the way that piece ends.
Anne Laurie
@raven:
Goddess forgive me, but AFAIKT she’s pissed the last little curly-haired college kid managed to get away on her, and intends to take it out on this one.
Word is that she’s gunning for the governorship, and thinks Tough on Crime is her selling point. If anyone deserved to die in a fire, she’d be high on my list of candidates.
kdaug
Two questions, Cole:
Have you met the German, and do you have the briefcase?
Redshirt
@Keith G: This week is an historically bad one in America.
And it’s such a nice time of the year!
Anya
POTUS looks really sad and tired.
raven
@Anne Laurie: Yea, I didn’t put that together until I googled her.
khead
I go to bed knowing more about police hats and pants than I did when I woke up today.
Thank you Balloon Juice. :)
Elie
@Anne Laurie:
My sister and I have dark, sad laughs about young men of color in our cities, who committ crimes then “escape to Momma’s house. Really — nowhere to go.I wonder if he recognized the futility at some point, and wondered why. Whole universes in 4 square blocks….
nellcote
Costco is awesome!
Schlemizel
@Anne Laurie:
Not to get too far a field but why do the pants look like that? I get the extra slim bottom part to fit inside of riding boots but what did the poofy thigh part do?
SiubhanDuinne
@raven: O/T how’s your bride?
Redshirt
@Anne Laurie: I figured, still look stupid as hell.
Not as bad as the Navy boys though. When they’d come to port and walk around town in their swinging bell bottoms, looking for fun – sigh. Such bad fashion.
Baud
Via Reddit, photo of suspect being taken:
http://imgur.com/XDuMHCY
Schlemizel
@Redshirt:
A hell of a lot closer to 100 than to 1. The single may not be able to prevent the married party from cheating but they sure as hell should not be assisting
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Schlemizel:
Miles Gloriosus
Keith G
@Anne Laurie:
This so much higher profile, I wonder if she will have others in her chain of command guiding some of the decision making.
Elie
@Anya:
How could he be anything but? No big monster defeated by our superior powers. Just two futile young men — . All the defense, the extensive efforts for teenagers gone wrong. I guess in some ways they “hope” that they had some sort of links to big El Qaeda — cause otherwise its just so so sad and deflating..
Our Pres has “eaten” a lot of dark sadness.. he has got to be tired. I am for sure…
Violet
@Redshirt: Married people can’t cheat if no one will get involved with them. On your scale, if you know the married person is married, then you are 100% responsible/guilty. You can’t control someone else–you can only control your behavior and if you know they’re married, you’re responsible for your choices.
If you, the single person, do not know the person is married then you are not responsible. I suppose there is some scenario where you should maybe hire a PI to check out any potential date, but realistically if you check with people you know who know them and maybe Facebook and whatever, then it’s not on your if they’ve lied to you.
Anne Laurie
@Schlemizel:
Theory is that extra poufy fabric makes it easier to sit astride, especially since a good rider is supposed to be controlling the horse with one’s thighs, not the horse’s headgear.
Mnemosyne
@nellcote:
Costco is generally great in an emergency. We had a horrific train wreck here in 2005 that happened right behind a Costco and the whole store jumped right in to help.
It’s almost like there’s a lesson there about treating your employees right and paying them well … hmm … what could it be …
scav
@Schlemizel: I don’t know how close I’d go to staring into the abyss of rational fashions in clothing. Smokey the bear in an Elizabethan ruff and with thise pointy King John (or so) shoes . . .
Redshirt
@Schlemizel: Give me a score man! 72? 56?
Suffern ACE
@Redshirt: you know they are married and need to respect that marriage even if one of the parties does not. Not hitler, and it happens all the time. But people should resist the temptation to solve other people’s marriage issues by entering into affairs.
That is IMSPO (in my smug Puritan position)
raven
@SiubhanDuinne: Just got her in the rack. First round of pain pills were wearing off but she’ll be better in a bit. thanks
Baud
@Redshirt:
Pi.
MomSense
@Sayne:
She didn’t confirm, just said that it is an option not to but that right now he is being treated at the hospital.
Elie
@Baud:
Just a skinny kid. A murderer for sure. but a skinny kid
Redshirt
@Violet: Worse than Stalin/Hitler? But the single person is breaking no vows, betraying no commitments.
Oh, also, in this THEORETICAL scenario, it’s the married person initiating the action.
Baud
MSNBC loves the gunfight video.
Anne Laurie
@Keith G:
That’s what I’m praying for — she needs to be on a leash, if she can’t be muzzled. Ugly unfeminist phrasing, but heartfelt.
Keith G
@Redshirt: The only way this week could be worse is if someone hooked up with a married person.
raven
@Baud: The 20 rounds?
Cacti
@Helen:
I know, it’s just outrageous that they would apply that to a guy who…
Set off a fucking bomb.
Helen
@Redshirt: Rut Roh – I am gonna be excoriated for this but my answer is ZERO.
During the Monica/Clinton fiasco she was asked by our dumbass press “Do you think you owe Chelsea and Hilary an apology?” I forget her answer, but here’s what my answer would have been. “Good God no. I wasn’t the one to promise not to fuck anyone else; he was.”
Now please do not misunderstand me. I would not have an affair with a married man. But that is not because of any stupid mis-placed responsibility to other women or feminism (PS I call myself a feminist – out and proud). I would not have an affair with a married man because a married man having an affair is him having his cake and eating it too. AND I WILL NOT BE A PART OF THAT.
khead
@Redshirt:
Where does “My wife would shoot everyone involved” fall on the 1-100 scale?
Mnemosyne
@Elie:
I was saying in another thread that I was hopeful that they would be able to take him alive because the stories coming out were that his brother was the real driving force, so the younger brother might not be quite as dedicated to dying in a hail of gunfire as his older brother was.
I know he doesn’t have much of a future to look forward to, but at least there’s not another death to add to the toll.
raven
@Cacti: More than one.
Bobby Thomson
@Redshirt: 300
Baud
@raven:
Yeah. I guess the gunfight was more like target practice.
Redshirt
@khead: Murder’s pretty bad, m’kay? I’d score it a mid to high 80’s.
raven
@Baud: Well, I still don’t think they put that much fire INTO the boat and didn’t kill him.
Elie
@Mnemosyne:
Yep.
Schlemizel
@Redshirt:
Well I have to assume its logarithmic since 100 is Stalin/Hitler x 1MM . . . so 83 to 86 at least. Not as bad as murder but not close to being OK
Elizabelle
@Keith G:
You made me laugh.
And Redshirt: what’s with the question?
Redshirt
@efgoldman: Its entirely theoretical, trust me. That said, I think it’s an interesting moral question – especially if the single person is NOT the initiator.
Baud
@raven:
Was he even hit this time, or were his wounds from the prior firefight?
Cacti
@raven:
Justice Jackson was wrong.
The constitution is, in fact, a suicide pact.
Elie
@Helen:
agreed
Baud
@Redshirt:
Why does that matter? The only issues are knowledge and consent.
Bobby Thomson
@Helen: It’s aiding and abetting.
MattR
@Redshirt: I’m single so keep that in mind as I say that it’s not your marriage. You have made no vows to anyone nor are you betraying anyone (assuming you don’t know the spouse). While the “right” thing to do is to pass on the offer, I also don’t think it is that big a deal if you choose to accept. I’ll score it a 27.
scav
And yet, oddly enough, adultery is rampant and many marriages have survived it, muddled along, and some managed rather well. And some monogamous “respected” pairings have been sheer hell-holes. Peoples is complicated.
raven
@Baud: I don’t think they would know that for for sure for a while but the dude that found him in the boat saw a blood trail.
MomSense
@Redshirt:
Ok, I think it would be messy and I wouldn’t want to be the person cheated on so I would tell the person to either get some counseling or call me when the divorce has been final for one year.
Anya
I hate it when the stupid media always makes everything seem so controversial. What’s so controversial about trying a civilian suspects in a civilian court? Pete Williams was just talking about the Obama admin deciding to try the suspect in a civilian court
Redshirt
@Baud: Well, intent matters, does it not? A single person initiating the encounter with a married person surely holds more moral blame than someone who instead was responding to the married person’s initiation. Yes? Or is this entirely equal?
Keith G
@Redshirt: When asked why his teams didn’t pass the football that much, Coach Woody Hayes of Ohio State answered:
“When you throw a football, three things are possible and two of them are bad.”
I feel those words may be pertinent to your hypothetical.
Baud
@Anya:
Ratings.
Anya
@Redshirt: 90
Narcissus
@efgoldman: go ahead and get laid dude
Oh wait I mean Redshirt
max
Picture of crowd gathered at Marathon finish line.
max
[‘Sweet.’]
Baud
@Redshirt:
Entirely equal.
raven
@Anya: Lindsey Graham was making noises about treating him as an enemy combatant and it’s is important to squash that shit from jump street.
Bobby Thomson
@Redshirt: Let me put it this way. Do you want to look those kids in the eye and explain to them why their parents are getting a divorce? If you can’t do that you shouldn’t be going anywhere near the cheating slut. Actually, you shouldn’t be going anywhere near the cheating slut, anyway. @Helen: It’s aiding and abetting.
Debbie(aussie)
@Elie:
Beautifully said, thank you.
Raven, how is your ‘bride’ going? Hope her pain is sparse and the op successful.
hildebrand
I second what my wife just sagely stated: “Thank God Dick Cheney isn’t still running the country.”
Schlemizel
@Helen:
Given the way Monica pushed herself at Bill I think she has a hell of a lot of responsibility! That does not forgive him for not rejecting him but a single person making sexual offers to a married person is a hell of a lot more culpable than one who only tumbles to hormones.
SiubhanDuinne
@Keith G:
He and Michelle, both, together.
Tone in DC
@Baud:
More like the BPD, ATF, FBI, DHS and other various and sundry organizations blast the living shit out of Watertown.
(with apologies to Berke Breathed).
gbear
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Bill Maher is an occasionally funny smarmy dick.
@nellcote: Wow. My sister keeps telling me I should join Costco but the closest one is 8 miles away. I may have to join just from reading that story.
aimai
@Sayne: Is he an american citizen?
raven
@Debbie(aussie): Very hopeful thanks. The surgeon said there was a bone frag pressing on the nerve and they were able to relive that.
Mnemosyne
@scav:
Which means, that, ironically, in many cases the person who ends up getting hurt worst is the third party. Who ended up suffering the most in the Bill/Hillary/Monica triangle? Most people would say it was Monica.
So, if nothing else, self-preservation should lead a third party to not get involved with a married person.
longtime lurk
By the way (for those of you who were following that Miranda thread downblog), they asked the Boston police chief at the press conference whether the suspect would be (or had been) read his Miranda rights, and some other person (a woman, not sure who it was, I was listening on NPR) did not answer the question but rather said “uh, um, well, that is a federal question… uh, you’ll have to ask the federal authorities about that” (paraphrasing). So… I think that clears up a couple of the questions/comments people had toward my original statement. Which was that Obama/Holder have stated that terrorism suspects need not be apprised of their Miranda rights. Too lazy to link right now — Google it yourself.
raven
@aimai: Yes
Gin & Tonic
@efgoldman: I agree 100%. I guess that’s putting a number on it. But there isn’t any scenario in which I see this as acceptable. “No thanks, I don’t want to contribute to the decline or failure of your marriage.”
Gin & Tonic
@longtime lurk: That woman *was* the federal authority. She’s the US Attorney for Boston.
raven
@longtime lurk: I posted all the relevant information above.
Redshirt
@Bobby Thomson: As I’ve said several times, this is entirely theoretical. I’m interested in how people answer the question. Writing a novel and want to get a feel for how people respond to this scenario.
raven
@Redshirt: Ask Randall P McMurphy.
the relevant quote is here
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_%28film%29
dslak
You should be careful sleeping with other people’s spouses. A guy did it to me, happened to be in the military, and thought I was bluffing when I told him I’d exploit what I knew of military law to make him pay.
He learned the hard way that I wasn’t bluffing, but I’m a paragon of self-control. Other spouses in my situation may be less calculating in their pursuit of vengeance.
Redshirt
@raven: To the Google!
Don’t get the reference.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@raven:
Damn! Wishing her a speedy recovery. I had a bit pressing on some nerves and at the time I would have preferred to be shot.
Mnemosyne
@aimai:
Last I heard, he was naturalized a few years ago, so he is a citizen.
penpen
Chill out people, public safety is a well known exception to Miranda rights and frankly in a situation like this one it’s basic common sense.
WaterGIrl
@Redshirt: In that situation, somebody always gets hurt, most likely deeply hurt. I don’t want to be party to hurting someone like that. On top of that, it makes no sense. If it’s a casual thing, why cause hurt to another person just for a casual fling? And if it’s not casual, why get involved with someone who will likely cheat on YOU at some point down the road?
Who initiates and who doesn’t? Makes absolutely no difference.
Bad idea. I’ll give it 100.
Helen
@Cacti: I am very leery of that excuse. It is the excuse for all the torture we committed after 911. Here’s the problem. During WWII the Japanese tortured American prisoners of war after Nagasaki and Hiroshima. That was the ultimate “ticking time bomb” We killed 220,000 Japanese in three days. They thought there was another bomb and tortured our soldiers to try and find out where/when it was going to be dropped.
The Japanese were prosecuted for war crimes and were found guilty. So when Americans were tortured it was a war crime. When America tortures??? Not so much.
Baud
@Mnemosyne:
Miranda isn’t a citizenship rule. It applies (with exceptions) to anyone in police custody being interrogated.
raven
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Yea, it’s been a haul for the last 8 months. All the bullshit “therapy” just made it worse. Of course, it ain’t for sure that it’s going to work.
Pooh
Possibly OT, but has anyone seen any way online to express support or do something for the poor Morrocan-American kid who got NYPosted?
kdaug
@Redshirt: I am absolutely not the right person to answer that question.
Schlemizel
@raven:
That sounds like very good news! That they found something they could fix there has to be encouraging.
I have had a couple of surgeries where I felt better coming out than going in and then had the meds wear off. The out patient one was weird because I didn’t feel wired at all but the meds clicked off & in an instant I was on the floor in horrible pain. My one piece of advice is STAY MEDICATED! B-{D
Hope she is up and around causing you trouble soon
SiubhanDuinne
@Redshirt:
Mr. Redshirt, please pick up the white courtesy phone for a call from a Mr. T. S. Eliot.
Debbie(aussie)
@raven:
That explains a lot of pain then, hopefully the nerve can recover.
MattR
@Pooh: Go kick Rupert Murdoch in the balls.
Anya
@Elie: I know I was not paying much attention to the Bush admin beyond my parents dragging me to anti war rallies but I truly believe that President Obama is dealing with a lot more tragedies. And no, I am not forgetting about Katrina and 9/11.
Pooh
@MattR: how will he know its in his honor?
raven
@Helen: OK, so you don’t like it.
Helen
@Bobby Thomson: Yeah – if it’s a crime.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
It’s not relevant to the Miranda discussion, but the question was asked, so I answered it.
Redshirt
Would people answer my scenario differently if the parties involved were engaging in an homosexual affair? Does that change the moral calculus?
Keith G
@raven: Laughed so loud, I scared the cats. Few books and no movies are written that well anymore.
Redshirt
@WaterGIrl: Stalin/Hitler killed millions! C’mon!
Mnemosyne
@Schlemizel:
Yep — take your pain pills on a schedule after surgery, because it’s easier to keep it under control that way than if you let the pills wear off and then try to catch up.
Baud
@Redshirt:
Why would it?
MattR
@Pooh: Your lawyer can hold a press conference.
longtime lurk
@raven: Yeah, I don’t see any information. Just rationalizations. The point is that Obama/Holder hold exactly the same view as Lindsay Graham. If you’re going to criticize him, then that same criticism applies to them. OTOH, if you think it’s ok to deprive a US citizen of his Miranda rights, well, at least you’re being consistent.
Just for the record: this particular guy is not in any way a sympathetic figure (I hope he burns in hell, myself, if there is a hell) but if the 5th amendment is important at all, it is most important in cases where there’s an unsympathetic suspect.
FlipYrWhig
To Miranda or not to Miranda seems like a whole lot of nothing. Just do it and get it over with.
raven
@Schlemizel: We had her home by noon. She’s walked around the house a good bit. She also is experiencing a good deal of discomfort but seems like that is pretty normal.
scav
@Mnemosyne: people get hurt staying in paired relationships. Relationships are just dangerous. I’m just wary of assuming there’s a one size fits all people way of measuring the situation, especially given how flexible people can be when it comes to sex and how many other non-sexual threads there are that can bind people together intensely. to a great degree, the real core is what the paired couple have promised each other, because that is whatever promise there is to be broken. Sexual fidelity might not be a strong component of that, or swamped by other aspects. Hard to predict.
Another Halocene Human
@Redshirt: Say that again to all the helpless children who have been brutalized or killed by their mothers.
Although to be fair, there does seem to be a male/female imbalance in prison. Maybe it’s not testosterone, maybe it’s the difference in the IQ scatter between males and females. Males b/c of Y chromosome are more prone to genetic problems, meaning more low IQ individuals than females, imprisoned individuals have lower intelligence than general population.
ChrisNYC
@Redshirt: Now, that I saw your other response, I want to add my answer. My answer on moral culpability is total — not Hitler/Stalin but as much culpability as the person who is attached. I know this from (very not extreme) personal experience and from my own development. There was a strange “he’s pursuing me so I can’t be in the wrong” thought process. But, in the end, you’re inserting yourself into another full life and the other full lives connected to that one life; you’re taking things important to other people and putting them at risk. It’s an overstep. The thing I say to people who ask me about this as a real and pressing concern, who want advice is, “It’s ok if the adults involved know what’s going on and are ok with it. Otherwise no.”
FlipYrWhig
@longtime lurk: Lindsay Graham wants the whole thing tried in a military pseudo court. That doesn’t seem the same as Obama or Holder’s view.
Mnemosyne
@Redshirt:
I think the “homosex isn’t cheating” loophole expired around 1985. That used to be the attitude (at least from what I’ve seen in fiction), but now most people seem to think that a sexual relationship with anyone else is cheating.
khead
@Redshirt:
I’m pretty sure my wife – if she were a guy – would still shoot first and ask questions later.
raven
@longtime lurk: Oh really?
longtime lurk
@FlipYrWhig: I’m specifically speaking to the Miranda aspect. As to the military commission aspect, I guess we’ll see what happens. Hopefully they’ll do the right thing, but I don’t have a lot of confidence.
Redshirt
@Baud: Don’t know if it would. That’s why I’m asking.
I’m thinking of Craigslist ads, specifically, the “Coming to City for the weekend and want a gay hookup” posts. Odds are a lot/good numbers of these guys are married.
raven
@longtime lurk: And how bout this. I don’t give a fuck if they do or don’t I posted both relevant quotes about the exception and the entire motherfucking web page that explains it.
Schlemizel
@Redshirt:
No, cheating is cheating. The single has no business inserting them self into another couples relationship (unless the couple asks for a threesome which is a different issue all together
MikeJ
@longtime lurk: You’re simply not very bright.
The explanation was that they can ask him very narrowly tailored questions about outstanding threats. “Are there any other bombs planted?” is an ok question. “Why did you do it?” is not.
Provided they follow those guidelines, and I don’t know why they wouldn’t, I don’t see the problem.
longtime lurk
@raven: Um, that has nothing to do with the point I’m making or the one that mistermix made in his original post on the subject.
Plus, quite obviously, LAW ENFORCEMENT (i.e., the FBI) have a vested interest in making exceptions to court rulings that give suspects more rights. That’s kind of the whole issue. Duh.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@raven:
Long, hard road, man. Crossing my fingers for a complete recovery – for both of you.
Mike E
CBS: Suspect 2 is a naturalized American citizen, which happened on 9/11/12. He has 2 wounds, one in the leg and one in the neck–either wound could have occurred 20 hrs apart. He was not Miranda’d because of an exception that allows for questioning when “imminent danger” remains. He is getting medical treatment, and being interrogated.
Keith G
@Pooh: A combustible gift basket sent to the post?
J/K
Mary G
@Redshirt: No, but to me personally the fact that the married person has kids makes it worse than if they were single, so if you want your character to be semi-sympathetic, I’d kill off the kids.
raven
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Thanks bro, I’m optimistic. I’ve lived with rods on my spine for 38 years so I know it can be ok.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Redshirt: It’s not cheating if the husband watches. Otherwise, best to hook up with someone unattached. Don’t know about the morality, it’s just safer for everyone involved.
Redshirt
@Another Halocene Human: How many wars have women started? Let’s start our body count there, and move on to the homicides, assaults, etc after we got the numbers counted.
Helen
@raven: This is not about liking it or not liking it. This is about parity.
Keith G
@Schlemizel:
In which case, turn and run.
raven
@Helen: Well good for you.
Anya
@longtime lurk: I was listening to the presser and that’s not what happened exactly. Reporters asked about the public safety exception to Miranda and the police chief said that’s federal issue, then gave the microphone to the horrible Carmen Ortiz, who just confirmed the public safety exemption but also added that hospital treatment will come first. So, let’s not sensationalize.
scav
@Redshirt: um, sorry, Thatcher did her best but the guys do have rather a lead.
Schlemizel
@Mnemosyne:
When they pasted my pelvis back together I was hooked u to a self-dose morphine thing. Shortly after it seemed to stop working. I complained to the nurse (there was A LOT of pain – I have extensive experience with pain & know the real thing) The nurse blew me off. I complained again a half our later & she basically called me a whiner. When the surgeon came in to check on me I told him, he rolled me onto my side & saw that the needle had come out & I was dosing the sheets.
I told him I never wanted to see that nurse in my room again (I knew he had a reputation for demanding excellence and a tough reputation). I saw her in the hall a few times but she was never in my room again!
raven
Name
Age
Hometown
Info
Link
Krystle Campbell
29
Arlington
Fatal injury
Boston.com
Martin William Richard
8
Dorchester
Fatal injury
Boston.com
Lingzi Lu
23
China
Fatal Injury
BostonGlobe.com
Kaitlynn Cates
25
Boston
Severe leg injury
BostonGlobe.com
Brittany Loring
29
Ayer
Boston College JD/MBA student, severe head, leg and arm injuries
Boston College
Sydney Corcoran
17
Lowell
On Globe front page Tuesday, severe leg injury, Lowell High School senior
BostonGlobe.com
Unidentified male
5
No longer in critical condition, severe injuries
BostonGlobe.com
Liza Cherney
–
Boston College MBA student was a spectator
Boston College
Celeste Corcoran
47
Lowell
Sydney’s mother, severe leg injury
BostonGlobe.com
Kevin Corcoran
–
Lowell
Sydney’s father, minor injuries
The Lowell Sun
Unidentified female
9
Severe leg injury
BostonGlobe.com
Zhou Danling
–
China
Chinese student studying actuarial sciences
BostonGlobe.com
Gillian Reny
17
Boston
Senior at Buckingham Brown & Nichols School in Cambridge
BostonGlobe.com
Marilyn Kight
63
Redding, Calif.
Severe leg injury
BostonGlobe.com
Erika Brannock
–
Towson, Md.
Severe leg injury
BostonGlobe.com
Denise Richard
–
Dorchester
Severe upper body injury, Martin Richard’s mother
BostonGlobe.com
Jane Richard
7
Dorchester
Severe leg injury, Martin Richard’s sister
BostonGlobe.com
Denise Spenard
–
Manchester, N.H.
Abdominal injury
GreenwichTime.com
Heather Abbott
–
Newport, R.I.
Boston.com
Jeff Bauman Jr.
27
Chelmsford
Severe leg injury
Boston.com
Sarah Girouard
20
Falmouth, Maine
Injuries to lower extremities, received surgery
Portland Press Herald
Beth Roche
60
Highland, Ind.
Severe leg injury, other injuries
Boston.com
Lee Ann Yanni
31
Severe leg injury
Boston.com
J.P. Craven
24
Hingham
Head injuries
Boston.com
David Yepez
15
Andover
Head and arm injuries
Eagle-Tribune
John Odom
–
Boston.com
Michelle L’Heureux
–
Quincy
Severe arm and leg injuries
Lewiston-Auburn Sun Journal
Patrick Downes
30
BC, alumnus,severe leg injuries
Boston.com
Jessica Downes
32
MGH nurse, severe leg injuries
Boston.com
Jarrod Clowery
35
Hearing loss, leg injuries
Boston.com
Darrel Folkert
42
Redondo Beach, Calif.
Leg injuries
BostonGlobe.com
William White
–
Bolton
Severe leg injury
Worcester Telegram & Gazette
Mary Jo White
–
Bolton
Hand injury
Worcester Telegram & Gazette
Kevin White
–
Bolton
Moderate injuries
Worcester Telegram & Gazette
Eric Whalley
65
Charlestown
Severe head injury, other wounds
Eagle-Tribune
Ann Whalley
65
Charlestown
Severe flesh wounds
Eagle-Tribune
Roseann Sdoia
45
Dracut
Severe leg injury
Lowell Sun
Aaron Hern
11
Martinez, Calif.
Leg injury
AP
Victoria McGrath
20
Northeastern student, severe leg injuries
Connecticut Post
Nicole Gross
31
Charlotte, N.C.
Leg injuries
Charlotte Observer
Michael Gross
38
Charlotte, N.C.
Head injuries
Charlotte
David Koch
hopefully Detective Pembleton will lead the interrogation
Roxy
@Redshirt: With morality, why not rate the risk of getting a sexually transmitted disease. Do you know who else this person has been sleeping with?
BTW, it shouldn’t matter if it’s a straight or homosexual couple.
WaterGIrl
@Redshirt: Is morality relative?
Schlemizel
@raven:
WOW! After back surgery that is FAST.
mai naem
@gbear: Costco does not only treat their employees well but their prices are good. Yeah, I know you pay the membership fee but – their Rx pharmacy, OTC’s, paper products,toiletry stuff, office products are all seriously cheap. A lot of their food is well priced for what it is. Their gas is always competitive. You make up the $50 easily.
raven
@WaterGIrl:
Russian gentleman: So who is to say what is moral?
Sonja: Morality is subjective.
Russian gentleman: Subjectivity is objective.
Sonja: Moral notions imply attributes to substances which exist only in relational duality.
Russian gentleman: Not as an essential extension of ontological existence.
Sonja: Can we not talk about sex so much?
Redshirt
@WaterGIrl: Yes. How could it not be? It’s a creation of a group of people specific to a time and place. It changes over time.
Suffern ACE
@longtime lurk: Lindsay Graham’s position is that “terrorists” should not be tried in our civilian courts, but be handed over to the military regardless of where they are captured. That is what he means when he says “don’t read then Miranda rights”. If you remember, there was a huge shitstorm from McCain, Graham and King when the justice department arrested the Underwear bomber and didn’t hand him over to the military like we did with the shoe bomber. That is what he thinks happens when Miranda rights are read: that suspects will have access to the regular court system, and that bothers him for high profile cases where he can go on tv.
There are a lot of things to complain about and bemoan that Obama is just too republican for your taste. This issue is not one of those.
Gin & Tonic
@Redshirt: You mean they’re married to a woman, but want to do a guy for a one-night? That, to me, is more complicated. Because it’s a different kind of dishonesty – the married guy is not just being dishonest to his wife, he’s being dishonest to himself.
Mnemosyne
@scav:
You kind of missed my point. AFAICT, neither Bill nor Hillary has been hurt by working through the issues in their marriage and deciding to stay together. Monica, on the other hand, was excoriated as a slut and a whore and ugly in the international press. It was the person outside of the paired relationship that was hurt, and it happens pretty often.
Pooh
@Keith G: I again how would anyone parse the reasons. It was actually a serious question, I’d have to think that it would help the poor kid, just a little, if he knew a mess of people he didn’t know had all said fuck the ny post I his behalf.
gbear
@Redshirt:
Being of the single homosexual persuasion, I can let you know that I’ve been hit on by married men many times. Most of the time they will keep it hidden, sometimes they’ll tell you that the wife knows and it’s OK (one guy actually used to bring his wife along to gay events). All the time it’s a drag (in the 60’s sense, not fashion). I will say I’ve gone for it a couple times and I’d rate it an even 50. Single people sometimes get very lonely…
Hopefully as gay marriage becomes more accepted, men and women won’t force themselves into fake straight marriage.
longtime lurk
@raven: Look: if you don’t believe Miranda is important, then fine, that’s a point of view and we can debate that. Not a liberal point of view, but a p.o.v. nonetheless. But are you seriously directing me to the FBI’s website to bolster your argument? OF COURSE the FBI doesn’t like to give Miranda warnings. Neither did the Arizona cops in Miranda v Arizona. Neither do any cops, ever. The FBI’s view of the subject is completely irrelevant.
The only relevant point is how Lindsay Graham’s view differs from that of Obama/Holder. And the answer to that question is: not at all.
Schlemizel
@Another Halocene Human:
Oddly, men with XYY chromosome, so-called hyper males are over represented in prisons. That damned Y makes a lot of trouble
MattR
@Redshirt: Then let me add that the state of the marriage probably factors in as well. I’d also say it matters it if was love or lust. If the cheating partner is unhappy in the marriage and is going to cheat whether it is you or someone else that is different from a rekindled crush or something similar where it is you or no one.
Redshirt
@Gin & Tonic: Yes, and the hookup is done via a social site. Such that the single person barely knows the married person, but it is the married person posting the ad, and the single person responding to it.
raven
@Schlemizel: Normal for a Microdiscectomy . I was talking to a medical illustrator last night and she said what they did to me 38 years ago would be considered barbaric today. Harrington rods t-6, 2 months in the hospital and 9 months in a plaster body cast. I’m not complaining, I was very fortunate.
Baud
@longtime lurk:
Neither Graham nor Obama/Holder have laid out their views in any detail that I’ve seen. So it’s silly to talk about them being the same. The devils are in the details.
Schlemizel
@longtime lurk:
seems like you might want to consider going back to lurking
Mnemosyne
@ChrisNYC:
That’s another point. There’s a difference between getting involved with someone who has an open relationship, and getting involved with someone who’s going behind his/her partner’s back. The problem is that you sometimes find out too late that one person tells you they have an open relationship but never bothered to let their partner know (usually because they can’t stand the thought of their partner having sex with someone else).
Keith G
@Pooh: Contact advertisers. The Post does what it does to collect max eyes for its advertisers.
The advertisers need to feel a negative connection.
Edit: Better yet, use social media to initiate a campaign to contact advertisers.
longtime lurk
@Baud: Incorrect. Holder has explicitly laid out his view, as reported by the NYT and others. Google it.
@Schlemizel: Why, because I’m in the minority here? I don’t mind that, not at all.
Baud
@longtime lurk:
I did use google. Holder mentioned it on a Sunday morning show and didn’t follow up. If you have some actual information, please share.
raven
@longtime lurk: Go see the chaplain and get your card punched.
Ruckus
@Redshirt:
Moral? Is it sex between consenting adults? Yes. Then the answer is no.
Now for your own peace of mind, if you were on the other side, married, how would you want your other half to act? Like the marriage means something? Like all the work put into it was worth it? Like maybe you both owe the relationship and as long as you are in it you should act like it? It’s a problem for the married people.
Now before anyone gets on their high horse, I have been propositioned by a married person while single and refused. I want to be treated with respect by my partner, so I have to treat my partner the same way. And I respect that people that are married, having made a commitment, should honor that. I act like I hope to be treated. You want to screw around, get a divorce. Be single, have fun. You want to be married, do that, have fun. With each other.
/ramble off.
Calouste
@Redshirt:
Depends, is he/she hot? ;)
Personally, I wouldn’t have moral problems with it (if I refuse they’ll probably find someone else to have an affair with), but I probably wouldn’t do it because of the potential hassle, and, well, cheaters are cheaters.
WaterGIrl
@Redshirt: What you described are mores, which are collectively agreed upon by most of society, and which do change over time.
Morality is about whether you do the right thing when faced with a moment of choice. It’s about what YOU do in YOUR situation, when YOU are faced with a choice. That is not relative.
Mike in NC
“DaVinci’s Demons” is pure shit, about as realistic as Starz’ “Spartacus” tripe.
longtime lurk
@raven: I have no idea what that means, other than you have failed to come up with any substantive response.
Schlemizel
@raven:
I know but my pelvis repair and my cancer treatments were 100 times better than they would have been even 10 years earlier. In that way I guess I was lucky.
I knew a couple of people who had back surgery in the late 60’s and it was very crude.
TooManyJens
I’m honestly not sure I see the point of not reading him his Miranda rights. Are they counting on him not knowing them? Is that very likely?
Cacti
So, has the Fox News editing staff been browning up images of the Tsarnaevs?
I figure they’ll have them looking like Amos and Andy over the next week or so.
penpen
@longtime lurk: Dude, you can debate whether the public safety exemption is being applied properly but surely you have to admit it makes sense that cops can hold off on the miranda reminders about self incrimination/attorney etc when they are trying to immediately obtain info about potential remaining dangers/threats etc?
jl
@Baud: I realize not an authoritative source, but Wikipedia says there is a public safety exception for Miranda that dates to a SCOTUS case in 1984. And TPM says the public safety clause is being invoked for the Boston bombing suspect for questions about possible confederates or other explosive devices they may have made.
I don’t think that is what Graham was talking about today. I think Graham was saying if the suspects were captured alive they should be Gitmo-ed.
Obama administration position on civil liberties and domestic security is surely problematic, but as long as administration or Dem Congress are not saying dangerous stuff wrt to this case, and reactionary wingnuts are, the reactionary wingnuts will get my attention wrt to this case.
Edit: this comment is not aimed at Baud particularly, but that was closest comment I could find on the Miranda flap.
raven
@Schlemizel: Yea, that’s what is so nice about this, tiny incision, walking two hours later and hopefully in the garden in a month or so.
Hill Dweller
@longtime lurk:McCain and Graham want Obama to treat Tsarnaev as an enemy combatant and try him in a military tribunal.
Obama will use the public safety exemption for 48 hours, Mirandize Tsarnaev, and ultimately try him in an Article 3 court.
scav
@Mnemosyne: That particular case may have more to do with exact circumstances. If one goes into one of these complex ones expecting the lucky dip and walking away with an exclusive engagement or unrealistic expectations, or expecting the approbation of those to whom sexual fidelity is the symbol of a properly functioning marriage than yes, you’re likely to get hurt. But if the approbation of those not directly involved doesn’t much fase you, it can be muddled through.
Keith G
@Cacti: I give up. Have they?
ChrisNYC
@longtime lurk: But Miranda doesn’t really “give” suspects “more rights.” It’s a two way street. Mirandize properly or don’t use the information at trial. Exclusion is the only penalty. Here, they probably have enough not to need his statements but sure a confession would be nice. But the law is set up to dole out the right and the penalty so it’s not purely “giving” on the part of authority. The idea that the FBI or the DOJ is going to broadcast or publicly assert a suspect interpretation of Miranda makes no sense because whatever they want to say it is, it is what the court says it is. Does them no good to point Federal Judge Lawdecider to their website.
rb
@Elie: You’re reading my mind. The thought of that kid – a murderous, warped kid perhaps beyond hope, but still a kid – bleeding out under a tarp, wishing for his mother, makes me terribly sad. It only adds to the unspeakable tragedy of his victims.
Five dead, in horrible fashion, the oldest 29. Not to mention those maimed and terrorized. What an awful waste.
raven
@penpen: The dude wants to argue.
Baud
@jl:
I’m (now) aware of the public safety exception, but I think Graham’s proposal would allow for general question, whereas the public safety exception only allows for public safety question. Raven posted a link above explaining this.
gbear
Denise Lasalle has this fabulous advice about cheating husbands.
Redshirt
@WaterGIrl: Interesting way of putting it. My questions:
What’s the correlation of “mores” to “morality”?
Is not your own morality changeable over your own lifetime? For example, the acts you thought moral at age 16 are not at age 56?
Is morality individual? Am I the only arbiter of my morality, or does society as a whole also contribute to the judgement?
What if a person suffers from some kind of chemical imbalance which affects their decision making process – are they incapable of morality? Or are they judged by a different standard?
raven
@penpen: “Has to admit” That ship sailed.
max
@TooManyJens: I’m honestly not sure I see the point of not reading him his Miranda rights. Are they counting on him not knowing them? Is that very likely?
They probably don’t want to interrupt the flow of questioning by hinting him that he should shut up. They are looking to find any explosives he may have left lying about.
If they go beyond that, the judge in the case can throw out any information obtained. (But even if that occurs, they’ll still have the explosives.)
In the current circumstances, it is likely they have enough information to successfully convict him, even if a bunch of info they acquire after this point gets thrown out; they are still going to be wanting to use that info.
max
[‘What people like Lindsay Graham are after is the immediate movement to waterboarding and the like.’]
longtime lurk
@penpen: Try to keep up. Did you see the earlier post from mistermix? He was slamming Lindsay Graham for stating that the suspect should not be read his Miranda rights, but rather should be interrogated. Whatever you may think of that statement, and whether or not it fits this “public safety exemption” that all of you liberals here suddenly find so compelling, the fact is that Lindsay Graham’s idea of how things should go in the questioning of the suspect is identical to Eric Holder’s idea of it. Therefore, any venom directed toward Lindsay Graham for his statement should be equally directed toward Holder (and by extension, Obama).
jl
@Baud: Sorry if it seemed like I was hectoring you. I wanted to link in to the Miranda flap comments. Sorry for my laziness.
Edit: Raven? Really? I looked through his comments and didn’t see it. I should have replied to one of his comments.
Cacti
@Keith G:
Dunno.
I was just wondering, if any brave soul had ventured over that way. I’ve seen a general sense of denial of these guys whiteness from righties on other message boards.
White Muslim = does not compute,broot dert bzzzzz
Mnemosyne
@gbear:
Did you ever read Alison Bechdel’s Fun Home? An underlying theme of it is the tragedy that her (primarily gay) father got married because he wanted to have children, but then ended up resenting those children because they trapped him in a marriage he didn’t want. Really good, poignant book (graphic novel, actually), for those who haven’t read it.
I really think one of the best things about the “gay marriage” debate is that it’s making people realize that the urge to raise children and the urge to have heterosexual intercourse don’t always go together.
penpen
@Baud: Graham would love this guy to be in indefinite detention with no actual trial, in which case miranda rights are moot since they’re about admissibility of evidence at trial I think.
raven
“You liberals” Uh huh. Pie for this motherfucker. Wonder if he knows what that means?
Culture of Truth
The point is that Obama/Holder hold exactly the same view as Lindsay Graham. If you’re going to criticize him, then that same criticism applies to them.
I don’t believe that is true.
jl
@longtime lurk:
I don’t recall a public statement by Holder saying what Graham said for this particular case. Do you have a link?
And I am no Holder fan, so if you have one, please post it. Since that would give me another reason among my arguments for why he shouldn’t be AG.
Edit: and who said they are ‘enamored’ of the public safety exemption. It exists, it is not some BS spin off of Patriot Act, it is apparently settled law for almost 30 years. So, it exists. And only question is whether it is being properly invoked here.
Pooh
@Keith G: yeah I know what you are saying but this is much less about the Post per se and more about the kid, who’s every bit as much a victim as anyone save the 4 who died.
WaterGIrl
@raven: Took me a minute to get that reference,
I really liked that movie when I saw it, but I confess to not remembering much of it now.
It’s wonderful to think your wife could be in the garden that quickly. How nice to feel hopeful about this after such a long ordeal!
Baud
@penpen:
Graham doesn’t want to lose his primary. I don’t think he has any core values.
gopher2b
I hope they amputate his legs.
penpen
@longtime lurk: Sorry dude you are missing the clear distinction between unlimited interrogation without ever reading miranda rights, and limited questioning about matters of immediate public safety within a restricted time period prior to reading miranda rights.
gbear
@Mnemosyne: I’d never heard of that book. I just added it to my wishlist. Thanks.
Mnemosyne
@TooManyJens:
Looking at that picture someone posted earlier, I’m not sure the guy was in any condition to be read his Miranda rights when they first arrested him. IIRC, the person being read the rights has to be able to hear and understand them, so you can’t read them to someone who’s barely conscious and declare that you did right.
max
@jl: I think Graham was saying if the suspects were captured alive they should be Gitmo-ed.
Graham is saying (more or less) that we should continue with the Bush-style interpretation of the law; anyone who commits a terrorist act (or any act, really) should be declared a terrorist for purposes of the AUMF (meaning, they are somehow connected to 9/11), and then Gitmoed, which equivalent of being a POW with no POW rights, and a criminal with no rights of the accused, except the right to a kangaroo court.
Obama is not down with that interpretation of the Constitution, which is why the Red Cross can now visit guys in Gitmo, for example, as is required by treaty.
max
[‘Same old BS, different fucking terrorist.’]
Keith G
@Cacti: The owner of the place where I work had Fox radio up and loud when I got to work at 5 AM. I listened for a bit then went immediately to the back and got my iPod cranking. Fox was….”frothy”… to say the least.
Culture of Truth
This is almost certainly demonstrably false.
longtime lurk
@Culture of Truth: So demonstrate it then.
Culture of Truth
@longtime lurk:
None of this is true.
dewzke
@kdaug:
Me too.
Mike E
@Hill Dweller: *should he survive his injuries.
Redshirt
@Mike in NC: Spartacus is an awesome TV show and those were fighting words. Please defend your erroneous opinion!
jl
@max:
Well, to be honest, what I really really think is that Graham is really, actually, saying is that he is a cowardly pissant so pants pissing scared of losing the primary in the next election, that he will say anything no matter how dangerous or irresponsible.
But, I guess that it is all a matter of nuance. Nuance for a guy like Graham, if not for most other people.
Keith G
@Pooh: The good news for him is…today’s action will erase him from almost all peoples’ consciousness. I saw his picture once today…on a site telling his story, then it was gone as the end game took over.
And I would not have seen his image had he not consented to the story…So, there you go.
Culture of Truth
@longtime lurk: I can’t read Lindsay Graham’s mind, but read his statements on treating the suspect as an enemy combatant.
or, one could ask you to defend your statement. Or are you ‘too lazy’ so the rest of us should google it?
longtime lurk
@Culture of Truth: Funny, I don’t see any refutation there, just a conclusory statement.
penpen
@jl: But isn’t this par for the course for him? Even in moderate mode he’s an atrocious security state hawk.
Culture of Truth
If I took orders, it would not be from someone as uninformed about basic things like what Miranda is as you clearly are.
In any case, you’re the person who wrote “So demonstrate it then.” and also wrote “too lazy to link right now — Google it yourself” so, heh, whatever…
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@Mnemosyne:
Redshirt
@Culture of Truth: I can read Graham’s mind. Here’s the summary:
“GOTTA GET RE-ELECTED. GOTTA GET RE-ELECTED….”
Culture of Truth
@longtime lurk: how about you support that statement?
Mnemosyne
@longtime lurk:
I’m not really sure what you’re expecting people to refute. You’re making a declarative statement with no proof and then demanding that people prove you wrong.
It’s particularly bad because you apparently had no clue that the woman on the radio who said “it’s a federal matter” was there representing the federal government, and yet you’re demanding that we fix your own ignorance.
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
@Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn: Shit, forgot to close the blockquote where appropriate and now I can’t edit it.
Well played, FYWP, well played.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Schlemizel:
I think I am sensing a pattern here.
On the capture of the bomber, I think he should have known that using a boat to get away only works if it’s in the water.
gopher2b
This public safety miranda issue is being overblown. Even if it didn’t exist and they took his statement without giving him his miranda rights the only consequence would be that they couldn’t use the safety. They already have enough evidence anyway. Frankly, if they go to trial, they shouldn’t use his statements. The last thing this needs is a Supreme Court issue on whether a person can be put to death when his 5th Amendment rights are knowingly and willfully ignored.
Redshirt
Wasn’t this a big deal last weekend?
Culture of Truth
@gopher2b: Exactly!! They should still give him an attorney but people need to calm the fuck down.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
Wouldn’t an ignorant person who feels that everyone is more ignorant than them need everyone else to prove them wrong? I mean they are ignorant, they don’t know how to find any proof of the stuff in their head. It’s in their head it must be true. There is no responsibility on their end because they don’t know how ignorant they are. Even if it is plainly obvious to those they keep proving it to.
Culture of Truth
@longtime lurk: It should be easy to prove me wrong, then.
penpen
@raven: Yeah, didn’t realize it was just really low grade purity trolling.
GregB
The FBI reportedly put a fruit hat on the suspect and read him his Carmen Miranda rights.
longtime lurk
@Culture of Truth: Uh, you’re the one making the claim, I think the burden of proof is on you.
But on second thought, nevermind. Considering I spent 2 hours here in a comment thread the other night trying (and failing miserably) to convince supposed “liberals” that cutting social security is actually a bad thing, I doubt I’m going to get anywhere trying to convince the same group of people that Miranda rights are also important *even when* the FBI disagrees.
Oh well. Good luck with implementing your theory of social change, whatever that might be.
Culture of Truth
@longtime lurk: you’re the one making the claim, I think the burden of proof is on you.
Wow, Mike J was right, you really are not very bright.
Prove it.
Another Halocene Human
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Not really shocking. The guy is a total jerk and an anti-vaxxer. He seems more kneejerk than thoughtful, overall.
It does make me sad/feel weird because there are so many times I’ve agreed with him. But I can’t really watch his show because so many times he’s so shallow.
Another Halocene Human
@Anne Laurie: Word is that she’s gunning for the governorship, and thinks Tough on Crime is her selling point. If anyone deserved to die in a fire, she’d be high on my list of candidates.
Heaven help us if she puts another Republican in office.
longtime lurk
@Culture of Truth: FYI, calling someone names or insulting their intelligence is not actually the same as refuting their argument. Any reasonably “bright” person understands this.
Culture of Truth
But on second thought, nevermind
Spoke like a true champion of ideals.
Oh well. Good luck with implementing your theory of social change, whatever that might be.
um ok
Culture of Truth
@longtime lurk: I didn’t call you a name. Another kind of person would have grasped this.
Another Halocene Human
@Violet: If you’re using protection and not actively housewrecking (calling the house, I got your man, he’s the father of my baby, he’s gonna divorce you bitch), I’m not exactly convinced it’s the worst, most horrible thing ever.
Though I do think it’s better if you’re going to mess with a married/partnered person to mess with one who is open about their extra-pair shenanigans with said partner. There is like a whole community of people who are down with that shit.
Getting off on doing something naughty is so babyish. I’m not going to sit here and fling rocks but somebody who does that needs therapy, IMHO.
gopher2b
@Culture of Truth:
Oh, god no. You don’t need to give a lawyer that would be terrible idea. Just don’t use his statements against him.
penpen
@longtime lurk: You know the FBI didn’t invent the public safety exception right? The Supreme Court did.
Another Halocene Human
@Redshirt: Would people answer my scenario differently if the parties involved were engaging in an homosexual affair? Does that change the moral calculus?
Only to the extent that poly is more open in the gay community so I would think that on average gay or bisexual people have given more thought to poly or not and they’re less likely to be together for purely social pressure reasons (although that might be changing) or property reasons (that may change in the future), so it’s more likely to be facilitating a true betrayal.
OTOH, if you know for a fact the other spouse is cool with it (even if they’re all ‘spare me the deets’), then fornicate away.
Another Halocene Human
@Redshirt: Now you’re asking about sex with a known Republican. Which, if you’re gay, totally different moral question! Sleep with the enemy? A lot harder to rationalize than “Brad and I just need some time to work some things out. In the meantime, I am working on some issues. Life in complicated.”
Giving sex (ie reward) to people trying to take away our rights? I’m not sure I could sleep at night…
Another Halocene Human
@Redshirt: I guess you haven’t heard of these women.
Joel
@Elie: he murdered an even younger, skinnier kid and three people barely older than kids themselves, ruined countless lives. He’s a sack of shit.
Another Halocene Human
@Redshirt: Yes. How could it not be? It’s a creation of a group of people specific to a time and place. It changes over time.
I must be mishearing you because this sounds like the fallacy of the excluded middle. I think you and I would agree that morality is not absolute. I think it varies as much as humans do, and certainly there is such a thing as culture and folkways, but we are all remarkably alike on the inside.
Another Halocene Human
@Schlemizel: That it true, but recall that XYY is also associated with mental retardation. XXX is pretty bad that way, too. Generally any doubled chromosomes is going to mean a sudden miscarriage or serious problems following live birth.
It has been suggested that the IQ/prison angle is a lot about being caught, which I think is true, but I also think higher IQ people may be less likely in some cases to engage in grossly violent behavior because they can foresee the consequences. Prison is full of impulsives.
Redshirt
@Another Halocene Human: Yes, certainly. I believe morality is a subjective concept.
Unless one wants to talk about a biological morality, perhaps Mammalian based, or even Life based, in which certain behaviors are always in evidence and thus one could claim them to be absolute, and thus the basis of an absolute morality. Not murdering, for example.
Redshirt
Also, too, I doubt there are any homeless drunks in Watertown.
Anne Laurie
@Redshirt: There’s a purely selfish calculation: Barring a situation where both partners in the marriage are good with one going “outside” (it does happen, but it’s hella harder than people think, which is why serial monogamy is so common), the intrusion of a third party is either going to strengthen the pairbond or break it up. If the pairbond is strengthened, the singleton ends up on the outside looking in (possibly getting excoriated by bystanders as well as the couple). If the pairbond breaks, the singleton either inherits a partner with a history of screwing around outside the partnership, or get identified as the slut who broke up someone else’s relationship for their idle selfish funzies. Either way, the ‘cheating’ partner will look like a jerk or a chump, but the ‘outsider’ looks bad regardless.
Suzanne
@Redshirt: 75. Helping someone else be a lying POS isn’t much better than being a lying POS yourself. It’s like driving the getaway car but not actually holding up the bank.
Roxy
This was posted on Daily Kos:
A few tweets about Boston you may have missed in today’s flurry
Anderson Cooper acting all surprised a 19 year old didn’t have an “exit strategy,” like he’s never heard of Don Rumsfeld.
— @jamisonfoser via Tweetbot for Mac
New York Post reports the boat is a Saudi national.
— @jamescdownie via web
Just back up one of those APCs to the boat and tow it to jail.
— @delrayser via Twitter for Android
BREAKING: CNN reporting that the boat is “dark-skinned.”
— @AngryBlackLady via Tweetbot for iOS
Geraldo Rivera being a total fucking moron right now, unsurprisingly. O’Reilly too. “this is the mark of jihad.
— @moorehn via Tweetbot for iOS
“He is 19-year-old Zooey Deschanel.” RT @peterogburn: Oh come on, Fox http://t.co/…
— @BuzzFeedAndrew via Twitter for iPhone
Sunday Classifieds: For Sale By Owner: Boat, 20′, slight burn marks, bullet holes. $5,000 OBO. Trades considered. Watertown: 617-XXX-XXXX
— @WestWingReport via web
“Step aside, officers. I’m from Reddit.”
— @lukezim via Tweetbot for Mac
“It’s a dark-skinned male.” “No.” “A Saudi guy.” “No.” “A Moroccan kid.” “No.” “An Indian, for sure.” “No.” “Ethiopian.” “No.” #racism101
— @tejucole via web
Joel
@Another Halocene Human: XYY is normal.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Redshirt: Sink your meathammer into that tuna trench and don’t look back.
Matt McIrvin
@Another Halocene Human: My impression is that recent work has usually not found any significant association between XYY and criminality, and some studies can’t even find an effect on IQ, though there’s some disagreement there; any effect is probably slight. Most XYY males seem completely normal. Wikipedia has a rundown:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
Matt McIrvin
@Mike E:
9/11? 2012? The day of…… BENGHAZI??? Can’t you see? It’s all connected, maaaan!!!
Matt McIrvin
Emily Bazelon is not convinced we can trust the FBI not to abuse the public safety exception:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/04/dzhokhar_tsarnaev_and_miranda_rights_the_public_safety_exception_and_terrorism.html
Ben Franklin
The FBI interviewed Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the elder of the brothers suspected in the Boston bombings, in 2011, two U.S. law enforcement officials told ProPublica Friday evening. The FBI agents conducted the inquiry into suspected extremist or terrorist activity at the request of a Russian security agency, the officials said.
“Yes he was interviewed,” a U.S. law enforcement official said. “Nothing derogatory came of it. We reported it back to the other agency, but never got anything as far as further communications from them. There was never any reason to do anything else.”
http://www.propublica.org/article/boston-bombing-suspects-echo-home-grown-terrorists-in-madrid-london-att#
I’ve seen pics of the 19 year-old and I think it is unlikely he will be able to talk for a while.
I will be interested in why the FBI is honoring security requests from Russia.
lojasmo
@Redshirt:
50
“No moral equation number, just don’t do it. Nothing good can come of it, not one fucking thing.”
scav
Speaking of interesting temporal accidents of topics, one of those complicated exceptions ‘Why three in a bed isn’t a crowd’ – the polyamorous trio. With an extra dose of convoluted paths there.
John M. Burt
@Redshirt: Crackerjack suits are uncool for picking up chicks? That wasn’t my experience.
It’s that blouse that doesn’t q-u-i-t-e come all the way down to the inseam that does it, really.