From the Boston Globe:
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration has a range of legal options in the Boston Marathon bombings, and they could include seeking the death penalty against the 19-year-old suspect in the case…
[I]f Tsarnaev is a U.S. citizen, as appears likely from voter registration information on file with the Massachusetts secretary of state, he could not be tried by a military commission under current law. The only option for prosecuting an American is in civilian courts.Tsarnaev was under armed guard at a Boston hospital and was reported in serious condition and unable to be interrogated Saturday. He has yet to be charged but prosecutors appear to have no shortage of federal laws at their disposal.
The most serious charge would be the use of a weapon of mass destruction to kill people, which carries a possible death sentence. Three people died in the twin explosions in Boston and more than 180 were injured.
Massachusetts does not have the death penalty, and it remains to be seen whether the administration would try to persuade a jury to sentence Tsarnaev to death. The state could try to bring charges against him, including for the death of Sean Collier, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer who authorities say was killed by Tsarnaev and his brother, Tamerlan.
The federal public defender for Massachusetts, Miriam Conrad, said her office expects to represent Tsarnaev after he is charged and that he needs a lawyer appointed as soon as possible because there are ‘‘serious issues regarding possible interrogation.’’
But several congressional Republicans said Tsarnaev’s rights should be even more restricted than the administration intends.
‘‘I am disappointed that it appears this administration is once again relying on Miranda’s public safety exception to gather intelligence which only allows at best a 48-hour waiting period that may expire since the suspect has been critically wounded,’’ Sen. Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, said in a statement hours after Tsarnaev was captured.
Chambliss’ concerns were echoed by Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H., and Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., as well as Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y..
‘‘A decision to not read Miranda rights to the suspect was sound and in our national security interests,’’ the four said. ‘‘However, we have concerns that limiting this investigation to 48 hours and exclusively relying on the public safety exception to Miranda, could very well be a national security mistake. It could severely limit our ability to gather critical information about future attacks from this suspect.’’
But Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., a former federal prosecutor and member of the House Intelligence Committee, said the administration should ignore ‘‘hasty calls to treat the suspect as an enemy combatant.’
‘‘This is not a foreign national caught on an enemy battlefield, but an American citizen arrested on American soil,’’ Schiff said. ‘‘The Justice Department has demonstrated a far greater ability to successfully prosecute suspected terrorists in federal courts than the military commissions have thus far been able to show. Nothing must be done to compromise the public safety, the ability of prosecutors to seek justice for the victims or our constitutional principles.’’
Good for Rep. Schiff, and for Miriam Conrad as well. And shame on the GOP grandstanders, who love the limelight more than they love America and its Constitution.
Another complicating factor as things move forward will be the local U.S. Attorney, Carmen Ortiz, who is widely believed to fancy herself as the Massachusetts Rudy Giuliani. She is notorious for her ‘zealous’ interpretation of what prosecutors are allowed to do towards the punishment of Bad People, and if Attorney General Holder’s people have any sense, they will be mindful of how badly this has backfired in past cases.
gogol's wife
McCain, Ayotte, Graham, and King are yellow-bellied cowards.
Mudge
@gogol’s wife: You have maligned the color yellow.
Baud
I wait with bated breadth for progressive hero Rand Paul to speak out in support the president in the name of FREEDOM.
Mnemosyne
That’s my rep — very proud of him right now. He represents large Eastern European communities (mostly Armenian, but also some Russian), so this stance will be very popular.
Yutsano
I’m surprised they haven’t called for him to be waterboarded and shipped to Guantanamo. But I guess it’s still early on in the game yet.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Ortiz is an example of why prosecutorial power must be watched vigilantly as is is subject to abuse in the wrong hands.
indycat32
The second amendment is sacrosanct and must be obeyed; the 4th amendment, not so much.
The Aurora Colorado shooter killed 12 people, injured 58 and boobytrapped his apartment with improvised explosive devices. Why wasn’t he charged with committing a terrorist act?
Frankensteinbeck
I thought it was interesting when I learned about the Miranda Exception. Apparently the difference it makes is that if you delay giving them Miranda rights, they don’t have the right to remain silent, but anything they say cannot be used against them. You can only interrogate them to find out about who else may be guilty, and its specific intention is to determine if there are other crimes being planned. The law is complex as Hell.
Also, Republicans are whiny cowards who like to kick people when they’re down? NEWS AT ELEVEN.
c u n d gulag
What these Conservatives forget is, that while these guys injured more people, the body county they left behind was far lower than the number of dead in a Kindergarten in CT, a movie theater in CO, a Congresswoman’s ‘Meet & Greet” in AZ, and a college in WV.
If these two criminals, aka – terrorists, had used AR-15’s instead of bombs, would Boston and sorrounding towns have been locked down?
Did they make a bad choice by using pressure-cooker bombs, instead of strafing people with assault weapons?
Btw – I expect we’ll have background checks for buying pressure-cookers, and having to register them, long before we have the same for guns.
Try this guy as a criminal, because, at the end of the day, that’s all any terrorist is – a criminal with a political agenda.
Baud
Does anyone know, would a high profile case like this be handled by the US attorney or by DOJ directly?
indycat32
The second amendment is sacrosanct and must be obeyed; the 4th amendment, not so much.
The Aurora Colorado shooter killed 12 people, injured 58 and boobytrapped his apartment with improvised explosive devices. Why wasn’t he charged with committing a terrorist act?
RobertDSC-eMac 1.25
Fucking Republican fascist scum.
Narcissus
Part of the problem with our democratic system is that at least half of our elected representatives don’t believe in things like democracy, civil rights, and rule of law.
YellowJournalism
Please do not martyr this asshole with the death penalty. If anything, it sounds like we could benefit from experts studying his case with his cooperation.
I find it sad, too, that the majority o those calling for military tribunals are either ignoring his citizenship status or have not bothered to make themselves familiar with the facts of his citizenship and residency. It’s just so sad to see the leaders in the GOP not having much more sense than a fame-seeking, self-important douchebag like Donald Trump, who was calling for public executions.
hildebrand
Am I surprised that those who most vigorously defend the sanctity of the second amendment will completely abandon the fourth through eighth amendments? Not whatsoever.
NotMax
Graham goes crackers yet again.
Fully expect contrived bleating along the lines of “Obamacare is paying for terrorist’s medical costs” this coming week.
gogol's wife
@indycat32:
Good question. I guess his name wasn’t Dzhokar.
ETA: Should be Dzhokhar.
Hill Dweller
@efgoldman: I’d settle for someone asking them to justify their support for military tribunals, which have been a debacle.
Article III courts are far more effective, efficient and successful.
Just Some Fuckhead
We were at a restaurant today talking about this and I made a few lame jokes about why would gay people want to be scouts? Is it the uniform? And would they be offering Glee badges? And my daughter exclaimed, “Could you quiet down a little, you’re making us sound like Republicans!”
NotMax
@Baud
It can be either, in my understanding, and that choice has yet to be determined. Charges have not been filed yet.
Ditto for the location of a trial. While it is more standard for such cases to be held within the jurisdiction where the crime took place, granting a request for change of venue is always a possibility (and far from unprecedented).
Jay
“Rep. Peter King (R-
NY)…”“Rep. Peter King (R-IRA)…”
Fixed.
David Koch
Where’s Rand Paul?
the Progressive Betters™ love to bleat how Baby Doc is a civil libertarian, so where’s he at?
if he’s really a civil libertarian and not just some clown trying to manufacture headlines with bizarre conspiracy theories of
black helicoptersdr0nZz3 then he should be front and center on this railing against the fascist in his partyMattF
Don’t forget Rep. Peter King, who considers anyone who doesn’t suspect Mooslims of terrorism to be falling for political correctness. It’s worth noting that King was an unapologetic IRA supporter:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us/politics/09king.html
It’s a sort of super-duper special IOKIYAR, I guess.
Marcelo
@YellowJournalism: It’s also important to note that the guy is 19 years old. That’s pretty effing young. If it is true that he was influenced heavily by his radicalized older brother, and that in general he was just a kid led astray and the sweetness and honesty that his friends and peers and teachers saw is still there, we have an obligation to show mercy for the life that he may still be able to lead.
Or we can throw him in a dark hole for the rest of his life and turn him into even more of a psychopath. Whatever.
EDIT TO ADD: I’m not saying give him community service – life in prison without parole would be acceptable, provided where he goes has opportunities for him to learn, acclimate, and eventually help people. Like some former gang members who try to steer people away from gangs while they’re in prison for life, this kid could still be capable of good deeds, even if he’s never free again.
BillinGlendaleCA
@NotMax:
scav
Also, totally scary scary scary that ‘mercans might be looked upon by drones eek eek eekk but court trials with rights? totally optional. Their ideal “Merca is one totally weird place.
Baud
@Just Some Fuckhead:
You are raising her well.
Alison
@Yutsano: Another reason to be glad we don’t have President Romney. We’d already be bombing Russia by now, too, probably.
David Koch
@indycat32:
because he was white.
yes the boston bombers are white, but they have have a lot of consonants in their names, so they makes them foreign, enabling the goopers to play Tricky-Dick’s southern strategy card.
c u n d gulag
Yeah, something’s going on.
When I submitted my comment, the little doo-hickey kept circling like it was in a broken toilet.
And no comment from the peanut gallery, about how where that’s the place most of my comments belong, anyway!!!
Ben Franklin
Try this guy as a criminal, because, at the end of the day, that’s all any terrorist is – a criminal with a political agenda.
Like Manning?
Club liberals want to wash themselves in crap like Miranda Rights when the reality is it’s just window dressing.
Now when you want to get serious about due process, call Eric Holder.
Baud
@Alison:
Czech Republic.
Mnemosyne
@NotMax:
The defense will almost certainly request, and get, a change of venue, because getting an unbiased jury in the Boston area will be very, very difficult.
Given the length of the police chase, I would not be at all surprised if the guy tries to go for a plea bargain rather than going to trial. It’s going to be very, very difficult for him to claim innocence when it looks like there is a very credible and very sympathetic eyewitness who ID’d him.
YellowJournalism
@Just Some Fuckhead: Aren’t you the proud papa?
@NotMax: Pretty sure that’s already happened. I know Trump did it and got a chorus of people reminding him that it would actually be Romneycare that would cover him in Mass.
Morzer
@Ben Franklin:
Lacks the entertainment value of your previous babblings.
Grade: D minus.
FlipYrWhig
@scav: speaking of drones, if the helicopter that picked up the guy’s body heat in the boat had been a drone, would anyone feel differently about the propriety of using it?
David Koch
where are the Progressive Betters™ to lecture me that there’s no difference btwn Bush and Gore and how obummer is worst than Bush?
Mike in NC
@gogol’s wife: Axis of Assholes. Pity that Joe Lieberman has left the building.
NotMax
@indycat32
The answer may shock. Or may not.
Because explosive devices (bombs, grenades, etc,) are legally considered weapons of mass destruction under the federal statute being used, and guns are not.
BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman: 95 degrees right now out here in sunny CA.
Alison
@Baud: Or actually, since it’s Romney, Czechoslovakia.
mai naem
@Baud: I believe Patrick Fitzgerald handled the blind sheikh prosecution. I’m not sure if he was US Attorney at that point.
Baud
@Alison:
Ha! I tried to edit my comments to say that but got a FYWP.
indycat32
@NotMax: So the Boston perps’ “mistake” was their choice of weapon? Oh, and being Muslim.
PeorgieTirebiter
@Marcelo:
I understand the sentiment, but 19 is plenty old enough to withstand being pressured to slaughter children and assasinate cops sitting in their cars. We hold 19year olds in combat accountable.
Life in prison if he cooperates and doesn’t give reason to the clowns wanting a tribunal.
NotMax
@Baud
Which would result in the generation of thousands upon thousands of cancelled Czechs.
Czech republic is a NATO member, though. Let’s see – another country that starts with the same sound (and isn’t China).
Uh oh, look out Chad!
beltane
@Baud: It would be handled by the US Attorney. However, that does not preclude prosecutors from other federal jurisdictions being brought in to assist in the case. The Southern District of New York has had a number of successful terrorism prosecutions so I expect they’ll be lending a hand.
beltane
@NotMax: I like how Slovakia gets off the hook here. They must be breathing a sigh of relief that they got a divorce from their neighbor.
pseudonymous in nc
@indycat32:
For the same reason Leon Czolgosz was a foreign anarchist in spite of being born and raised in the midwest.
Cacti
The word terrorism has a specific meaning. I’ve yet to see anything other than speculation regarding the motivation of the Tsarnaev’s, and whether it was political and/or religious in nature.
Until then, use of a weapon of mass destruction seems to be the appropriate federal charge. At the state level, you would have 3 counts of premeditated murder, and over 100 counts of attempted murder.
Ben
@David Koch: the Obama administration has greatly enlarged the “public safety exception” that allows Miranda rights to be waived, just straight out disregarding the notion that there be an “imminent threat”. It’s not really worse than Bush because he threw people into a hole instead of worrying about it, but still. Will that do?
That’s not what I came here to say though, which is: there’s a real Adam Schiff! And he was a prosecutor too! How awesome is that. Glad he’s such a badass.
rikyrah
I Blame Dick Wolf – Misunderstanding Miranda in the Age of Terrorism
http://wielandnotes.tumblr.com/post/48462839332/i-blame-dick-wolf-misunderstanding-miranda-in-the
Jay S
I don’t understand this preoccupation with Miranda. It’s like they believe it’s some magic spell that shuts people up. Are they just hoping that nobody knows that they don’t have to talk?
SiubhanDuinne
@Narcissus: They have a very … uh … fluid definition of “citizen,” don’t they?
beltane
@efgoldman: Carmen Ortiz has a boss. If her boss feels she is likely to mishandle a high-profile prosecution like this, there are things they will do behind the scenes to encourage her to accept whatever assistance they think is needed.
? Martin
@Yutsano:
That’s NY State Rep Greg Ball (R-Asshole)
Didn’t have to wait long.
Ira-NY
The Baggers are all over this as a false flag operation. What a warped group.
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/04/20/not-reading-the-boston-bomber-suspect-his-miranda-rights/#comments
beltane
@Jay S: People interpret Miranda as being synonymous with the 5th & 6th Amendments themselves. Perhaps it would be better to refer to the Amendments themselves just as the 2nd Amendment absolutists do. After all, if the 5th amendment is allowed to be ignored, by what reasoning shouldn’t the 2nd.
scav
@SiubhanDuinne: ‘s ok, they have a fluid definition of white. I’m just jazzed that with my Kolache ‘n’ Dumpling genome, I can now sign-up as a legitimate member of TWiB! Polka Hip-Hop!
mai naem
@mai naem: I looked it up. He was the Assistant US Attorney in Southern District NY. Couldn’t edit original post.
In my simple understanding, I don’t see how you can treat this guy as an enemy combatant. You have nothing even halfway solid saying that he was part of AQ. You may have been, maybe, pull it off with the brother but this one’s a US citizen and from what I’ve seen, hasn’t posted any of the YouTube kind of stuff the brother did(not saying that YouTube stuff gives the govt a right to treat you as an enemy combatant.)
? Martin
@Ira-NY:
So once again they agree with Glenn Beck. Not surprised.
Cacti
@PeorgieTirebiter:
This.
If you’re old enough to kill for your country, you’re old enough to face the full weight of the law for criminal acts.
That said, I’m certain the defense will portray him as a callow 19 year old, in the thrall of a beloved older brother who masterminded everything. I know I would if he was my client.
Davis X. Machina
@gogol’s wife:
But only Ayotte is running for (Vice, 2016) President(2020).
bjacques
I hope Bostonians demand that Tsarnaev be tried in a Boston court. He may get a change of venue, but the starting point will be a civilian trial. It was good enough for Kaczynski, Rudolph, McVeigh, the DC Beltway snipers and even the guys who bombed the WTC in 1993. If Obama and Holder waver on this–not surprising, given GOP hostility and Democratic lack of support–the people most immediately affected have the best opportunity to force them to do the right thing.
Davis X. Machina
@FlipYrWhig: Only if the heat came from grow-lamps.
max
That’s all fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is that he can be charged under Mass. law with the local equivalent of Assault with a Deadly. Given that such crimes are generally awarded something like 2-20 years, he can be charged with 170 counts, given two years for each count to be served consecutively and sent away to Mass. state prison for 340 years.
Obviously, those could be charged as attempted murders, but as a practical matter assault with a deadly type charges tend to have quick, clean trials. Did he do it? ‘Oh, yes! We have him on film!’ Can we hear the testimony of the injured person? ‘Oh, yes, right now!’ And that’s that. He never ever gets out.
He still wouldn’t have been charged with the three murders at the Marathon, the murder, the kidnapping/carjacking and the attempted murder, not to mention all the ancillary federal firearms/explosives charges he’d be up for. Those, with a little state & federal cooperation, can be charged at the Feds leisure after he’s been convicted and begun serving his sentence. (And, should he ever exhaust his Mass. sentences on the assault charges, he would then turn around and begin serving federal time.)
The Feds could let the living marathon victims get their piece of him real quick like, and then hit him with the death penalty charges… which can then be traded away for a plea to life in federal prison (to be served after he’s served his Mass. sentence) plus a whole lot of talking to the Feds on his part.
Get it over in three or four months tops. Cheap and quick. I don’t think the Feds will do that, because there are many important federal officials & representatives who want to see justice served because they’re concerned with what’s important. (And by that I mean ‘concerned with their career prospects’ and state’s rights! Er, federal supremacy!)
Another complicating factor as things move forward will be the local U.S. Attorney, Carmen Ortiz, who is widely believed to fancy herself as the Massachusetts Rudy Giuliani. She is notorious for her ‘zealous’ interpretation of what prosecutors are allowed to do towards the punishment of Bad People,
I’m just going to add here that I concur with your assessment.
max
[‘Pointless vindictiveness and ridiculous grandstanding sells, unfortunately.’]
Michael C
@indycat32: Because he was whitey-white and “Christian?”
Mike E
@? Martin: #2 should be renditioned to Syria…wait. Oh.
trollhattan
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Oof, too much too soon. 83 in my slice of Ca, which seems juuuuuust right.
Morzer
@Davis X. Machina:
Ayotte is Palin without the looks and the feral family. She might get the VP slot, although I doubt it, but I don’t see her ever winning the big prize.
Not me
@NotMax: @NotMax: How about invading Cheney?
Morzer
@bjacques:
I would bet you dollars to Lindsey Graham’s personal integrity that by the time the circus gets going neither the media nor the GOP will give a current Texas governor’s IQ level for the feelings of Bostonians on the matter.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Cacti:
Oh, I dunno…If 14-year olds were, on average, as physically mature as 19-year olds, the military would take ’em at the drop of a hat. The psyches of most teenagers are easily remolded in the process of basic training- at least more easily than someone in his or her mid-20s and beyond. There’s a reason that most recruitment is aimed at high school kids and not college kids, ya know.
Culture of Truth
There are several different issues
1. Does Miranda apply?
2. Is he advised of his rights?
3. Does he retain those rights?
4. Can what he says he be used against him?
Yes, it’s complicated
Davis X. Machina
@Morzer: By 2020 the Southern Captivity may have been broken…. at which point a non-Confederate, non-God-bothering, non-male top-of-the-ticket (assuming arguendo that Hillary doesn’t run) who wins the NH primary by default isn’t that long a long-shot.
Ben Franklin
@Cacti:
Christ. Another law-worshiping lawyer. Gawd save our spleens.
MikeJ
@max:
It would be nice if they went the quick, clean trial route, but there will be too many opportunities for grandstanding.
On the other hand, I hope the trial is better than McVeigh’s. That was a travesty of justice. The feds railroaded a guilty person.
TBogg
@Ira-NY: It’s a group of five or six commenters, most of them delusional morons who blame Obama if they wake up in the morning and find they are out of soy milk. Kevin made a point about Miranda, and then the loons took over with the exact same bullshit comments they make of everything they can tangentially link to Obama.
I stay off Kevin’s posts and am resisting mocking it for the shithouseratfest that it is.
Morzer
@Davis X. Machina:
1) You assume that Ms Ayotte hasn’t been booted out by the voters by 2020. I think that is too pessimistic an assessment. She’s tacked very heavily towards the teabagger side of the spectrum, which will come back to haunt her.
2) Kelly Ayotte doesn’t have anything like the record/stature/charisma of a presidential candidate – and winning the New Hampshire primary isn’t worth that much these days – as both HRC and Grandpa Walnuts attest.
3) The GOP’s Southern Captivity is more likely than not to be still a going concern in 2020. Basically the South is their Fuhrerbunker with greasier food and fewer large Bavarian men in leather shorts. That’s not going to change in 7 years. Kelly Ayotte can win New Hampshire by 50 points – and still get crushed in Texas and Florida. Put up some semi-plausible white Christian male from Hicksville and watch the bloom come off the Yankee rose in two seconds flat.
SiubhanDuinne
@scav:
Don’t be so narrow in your ethnicities! Polka Hip-Hop Gangnam Style (Cha-Cha-Cha)!!
Ira-NY
@TBogg: Back in the day it was a fun and informative site. But now, except for you, Attaturk and Smith, it is a wasteland of ignorance and paranoia.
gogol's wife
@Morzer:
Okay, I’m sensing a “Downfall” parody somewhere in here.
Davis X. Machina
@Morzer: A lot depends on the verdict in 2016. If the GOP still flies into the side of a mountain after throwing every switch on the panel, they’ll try something else. A lot of jobs are riding on it.
Cacti
@Ben Franklin:
Damn that inconvenient rule of law.
Morzer
@gogol’s wife:
It’s pretty tempting, but I don’t think anyone will ever top the Fuhrer’s demand for a Clay Matthews jersey and a bottle of Scotch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf6443m3_Dk
Morzer
@Davis X. Machina:
I think Ayotte’s out of the running either way. She’s gone too wingnut to be credible as a moderate, her record isn’t really distinguished and she just isn’t very charismatic. If they want a fresh new face, hers doesn’t fit. If they want the old-style witless deep-fried Southern thuggery, well, she’s a Yankee from a state with very few electoral votes.
aimai
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I don’t know what she’s thinking–she muffed her chance to run for the Senate. If Markey gets in he will probably be there for life. Warren is in for as long as she wants unless Obama or someone else bumps her to the Supreme Court or VP. So what, she’s going to run for Governor? No one really wants that job, as far as I can see. Its been a lousy stepping stone to national office and its a ton of work. She needs to be super careful how she handles this case, she will end up pissing off more people than she pleases because its just an extremely ugly case all around. I don’t think the people of MA really want to relive it or, if they think they do, they will be heartily sick of it by the time the courts are through with it.
Morzer
@TBogg:
Have you considered liquidating the kulaks to restore blog order?
MikeJ
@FlipYrWhig:
There were people on reddit screaming about the loss of our precious freedoms because the cops didn’t get a warrant. Never mind that the home owner asked them to search.
This week has brought out the stupid in a lot of people.
Morzer
@aimai:
I suspect Carmen Ortiz noted the apparent lack of penalty for legislating foolishly where the internet is concerned, plus the apparent rewards for ‘tough’ prosecutors and shaped her course accordingly. Nine times out of ten, she would probably have been right, Aaron Schwartz would be in prison and the good ship Ortiz would be sailing majestically on its virtuous political course.
But then, of course, Aaron Schwartz wasn’t just another little internet person and enough people cared about him to make his suicide a massive (and well-deserved) disaster for Ortiz.
Ben Franklin
@TBogg:
most of them delusional morons who blame Obama if they wake up in the morning and find they are out of soy milk
JC on rubber crutches. The fluffing of this Miranda issue implies we still have a society which values their liberty. Presentation has more equity as an issue for discussion, but you want your infinitely run-on sentences to somehow bestow gravitas on all those who find fault with a POTUS who has shown only a populist style of governance fueled by polls, which haven’t been helping him much lately, No?
As for soymilk……GMO’s….Huzzah !
Morzer
@Ben Franklin:
*chuckle*
To think that we should see Clown Prince Benny of all people denouncing run-on sentences! Three consecutive relative clauses in the little omadhaun’s screed, so there are!
Ben Franklin
@Cacti:
Damn that
inconvenientimmutable rule of law.AHH onna Droid
@FlipYrWhig: This.
Anne Laurie
@Morzer: For the record, Ortiz was being called a bully, a zealot and a famehound years before she let her underlings botch the Aaron Schwartz case. Google ‘Fells Acre daycare prosecution’ if you don’t want to follow the Wikipedia links I included in the post. My prayerful hope at the moment is that she’s rumored to have botched some recent leads in both the Whitey Bulger and the Gardner Museum heist cases, for the sake of going on camera as ToughonCrime. So the federal agencies involved in the Marathon Bombing have no reason to encourage her involvement — at least they’ve been given fair warning that she could use “assistance” from outside prosecutors who’ve been to this circus before.
AHH onna Droid
@MikeJ: Now that’s comedy.
AHH onna Droid
@max: Agreed, Max. He’s facing multiple lifetimes in Mass but I have a sick feeling that some incontinent with fear pols and glory hound federal prosecutors will turn this into an ugly circus culminating in making him a cheap martyr to a cause he never espoused.
lojasmo
@Ben Franklin:
Manning was not a civilian, asshole.
Keith
Republicans have some kind of fantasy that detainees only stop talking because they found out about Miranda. Fact is, if someone doesn’t want to talk, they won’t talk, regardless of whether or not someone has said, “Y’know, you have the right not to talk”. It’s like they have some script as to how one should solve terrorism, and any deviation from said script (including not saying “terrorism” within 24 hours) fucks everything up. It’s delusional.
And trying to compel a US citizen to talk via torture is just risking having a mistrial (or worse).
Joel
@Marcelo: if they put him in the supermax in the cell next to Eric Rudolph’s, I won’t sweat it. Wouldn’t sweat it if he gets done like McVeigh, either.
AHH onna Droid
@Anne Laurie: Could you clarify? If she is botching leads why isn’t she removed or cut out of the loop? The Bulger case was all about the Mass state police being cut off at the knees repeatedly. Also, I thought Fells Acre was Coakley, unless there was another daycare case with prosecutors gone wild.
Full Metal Wingnut
Whatever happens, he doesn’t get off. If he walks I expect vigilantes to take up the cause, not that I condone that.
Kay
@Keith:
Our problem is we look at it from an “interests” perspective. Whose interests could this delusional belief possibly serve?
Conservatives don’t weigh interests. They adopt positions. The result matters not at all. The important thing is we adopt their position.
NotMax
@max
Not quite.
Federal law in this case trumps state law, and unequivocally gives the FBI primary control, superseding that of the state.
I suppose the feds might possibly waive responsibility and toss it back to the state, but that would never fly and ain’t a-gonna happen.
Calouste
@Keith:
Republicans believe in magic. And if you don’t say the magic incantation, it doesn’t happen. They’re just a cargo cult.
Yutsano
@Calouste:
No kidding. Jeebus they were practically wetting themselves because Obummer waited A WHOLE DAY before he called it terror!
Morzer
@Anne Laurie:
I am well aware of Carmen The Terrible – and I was not a fan even before the suicide of Aaron Schwartz. I would like to think that she’s gone as far as she is going to politically, but I don’t feel immensely optimistic.
burnspbesq
@Ben Franklin:
Since you asked, yes, exactly like Manning in every meaningful respect.
burnspbesq
@Morzer:
Please. The only person responsible for Aaron Swartz’ death is Aaron Swartz. He could have pled, and spent a year in a level one institution (nicer than most college dorms, except that you can’t leave) and another six months in supervised release. He chose martyrdom instead.
Kay
@Yutsano:
I’d give them “terror” if they weren’t so full of shit. The anti-abortion bombings are terrorism, as was the MLK day attempt.
They can’t just define this word any old way, and then screech if people ( justifiably and sensibly) believe they’re using it politically. They are. Obviously.
dr. bloor
@burnspbesq: Which doesn’t change the fact that Ortiz is nothing more than raw ambition one iota.
Morzer
@burnspbesq:
Ah, so your talents extend to reading the future retrospectively. How very useful that must be for you.
Fort Geek
@NotMax: It’s even better: ROMNEYcare is taking care of that bomber.
Yutsano
@Kay: Their definitions are very much Humpty-Dumpty in origin. They mean exactly what they want them to mean at that specific time, until they decide they don’t mean that anymore. Consistency is meaningless if it gets in the way of ideology.
pseudonymous in nc
@burnspbesq:
You had bullshit called on you back then, and I’m calling it now. I know it’s a lawyer’s trick to repeat past bullshit in the hope that nobody’s listening, but really, try fucking harder, or just apply to be one of Sammy Alito’s clerks.
Morzer
@AHH onna Droid:
Coakley made a bad mess of the Keith Winnfield case, but the investigation and prosecution of the Fells Acres/Amirault case was done by Patricia Bernstein who was later joined by Larry Hardoon. Coakley lobbied against clemency for Gerald Amirault (which I think was wrong), but the governor who denied clemency was Jane Swift.
Kay
@Yutsano:
I watched some of the coverage and the news anchors were driving me crazy. This shouldn’t be full of such angst for them. It’s a godamned WORD not a magic incantation. Look it up. If it fits, use it and if it doesn’t, don’t.
The fact that they can’t just do that means the word has somehow been corrupted or twisted.
It’s politically freighted, obviously, or they
wouldn’t be so tongue tied and ridiculous about it.
Drives me CRAZY.
Morzer
@pseudonymous in nc:
Well we can hardly expect Burnie to produce facts to back up his assertions, can we? That would be asking him to go against a lifetime of rabid nonsense and hysterical allegations without a smidgeon of evidence.
ChrisNYC
Serious question, why is there doubt as to the rejection of the plea deal with Swartz? The source is his lead defense attorney.
During plea talks held in the months before his death, federal prosecutors told Aaron Swartz and his attorney that the computer prodigy must spend six months behind bars and plead guilty to 13 federal crimes in order to resolve the criminal case short of a trial.
Swartz’s lead defense attorney, Elliot Peters, said today that both he and Swartz rejected the plea deal offered by the office of US Attorney Carmen Ortiz, and instead were pushing for a trial where federal prosecutors would have been forced to publicly justify their pursuit of Swartz.
http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/01/14/mit-hacking-case-lawyer-says-aaron-swartz-was-offered-plea-deal-six-months-behind-bars/hQt8sQI64tnV6FAd7CLcTJ/story.html
David Koch
@pseudonymous in nc:
what is Burnsie saying that is wrong (other than overstating the length of the plea deal)?
Morzer
@David Koch:
You don’t find your suspicions aroused by the claim that level one institutions are ‘nicer than most college dorms’ to name only one obvious absurdity?
Then there’s the whole matter of what else a plea deal would have involved. It’s always interesting to watch how other people’s rights can be so cavalierly discarded by the self-appointed guardians of the system and its privileged inquisitors like Ortiz.
David Koch
@Morzer:I thought you guys were talking about the underlying facts of the case, not Burnsy’s commentary.
Now you can say, any amount of prison time or felony plea in this case is wrong.
but putting Burnsy’s commentary aside, isn’t what he’s saying basically true: he had a number of plea deals ranging from 3 months to 6 months at a level one jail. isn’t that true?
Another Halocene Human
@Morzer: Right, that was it. I think some people were hoping that she would make a different decision because the initial prosecution was before her time, but, no.
I don’t understand what Ortiz had to do with it, though?
Another Halocene Human
Ha ha Helicopter Jane Swift. I almost forgot she had been governor for two seconds. Fucking New England GOP.
At least she was a funny ha ha clown, unlike some of the scumbags in Mass politics.
TG Chicago
@Ben: Exactly what caught my eye. Adam Schiff is REAL??? Does he give people the side-eye and the gnat-swatting gesture to end conversations?
Full Metal Wingnut
@Mnemosyne: I would be astounded if prosecutors offered him a plea. The only plea he’d get is life instead of the needle. This is a career making trial. No pleas.
Cmm
Why do people assume that a suspect doesn’t have Miranda type rights unless s/he is advised of them? They aren’t a benevolent gift, that’s the whole idea of the word rights, um, right?
Anyway in my experience as an investigator, when people want to talk you can advise them of Miranda a bunch of times and they will barely listen because a) they have heard it on tv so many times they are not really paying attention and b) they have the story/alibi they have worked out and are dying to try out so they just want to get on with that part. Or, of course, sometimes c) they haven’t done anything wrong, or don’t think they have so therefore there is no harm in talking. But honestly most people who have done something will talk to the police anyway. They think they can talk their way out of it and make it all go away.
Now if this applies to the bombing suspect, that remains to be seen. But no matter what, they will get further with him by being patient and compassionate toward him than being all tough and “you are scum of the earth”. David Simon in Homicide (the book not the show) said it perfectly when he said, you show the suspect all the evidence you have that says he did it (not literally but you lay out as strong an argument as you can) and then show them a “miraculous” way out
T, the “open window” they can go through to freedom. A big one is always to imply that you think their associate did it all and they were just along for the ride, maybe even tried to stop them or argue against. If I were interviewing this guy that is totally the way I would go, because the brother is dead, he has no worries,about jamming him up so loyalty is less of a factor, and it would be pretty easy to argue that the brother left the living suspect in the jam. Or, you know, he might actually be exhausted, in pain, stressed out and scared, and sorry he ever got involved in such a thing, and wanting to confess and get it over with, but you aren’t going to find that out by treating him as subhuman and trying to drag him off to Gitmo for water boarding.