Frank Luntz, the media-friendly Republican consultant and word wiz, told a group of college students this week that Rush Limbaugh and right-wing talk radio are “problematic” for the GOP and partly responsible for the stark polarization within the nation’s political discourse. He only dared to speak so candidly about Limbaugh and other conservative hosts off the record. A secretly recorded video, though, captured Luntz’s remark.
In case there was any doubt that Luntz is a fucking douche, he’s cancelled a scholarship he was funding at Penn because the student, Aakash Abbi, recorded him. Abbi explains his side of the story:
I made the choice to share my recording with Mother Jones because Luntz’s comments are important. They illustrate one of the largest schisms within the GOP and expose the hypocrisy of Luntz’s willingness to place blame for his party’s division upon a media establishment he has helped build. Further, his request to be taken off the record was never one to which I acquiesced. The reporter who was present was right to oblige Luntz, but in a room filled with scores of independent students, “off the record” is not a Patronus charm. Luntz may have felt that he was invited to speak candidly by acclimation, but I disagreed entirely.
Who’s the bigger fool: Luntz, who thinks that he can go “off the record” in front of an audience of university students, or the people that pay him for his advice?
Schlemizel
Given the success of this ass’s advice I would not call those who pay him fools. Evil, vile, disgusting, scum many things but not fools. “Fools” would be the people who fall for his tricks and elect the above mentioned crowd
Schlemizel
one click but two posts luckily I can edit this one (not the other though, odd)
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
I think “off the record” talks in general are bullshit, and especially when journalists do it (as Columbia J-School has been known to do with some publishers so “they may speak frankly about the situation.”). You’re talking to a crowd of people. If you don’t want your words repeated, DON’T SAY THEM.
Suffern ACE
Just between you and me, it seems that We should focus on what Luntz said and not how it was captured. Someday one of our pols will be taped by phone by someone attending a speech and we’ll end up countertop inspecting the recorder. But that’s our secret discussion, ok?
aimai
I thought this was just part of the over overall mad signalling that Luntz and the standard GOP are doing to try to signal the upper class/corporatists that they are going to be able to rein the wild horses of talk radio in, eventually.
MattF
I think that the gap between what wingers say in public and what they say in private is a no-kidding issue. So, this is not a matter of trust, or convention, or waving a magic wand– what we have here is dishonesty as the foundation of a political movement. And it needs to be exposed, even at the expense of being impolite now and then.
GregB
Every time I hear the name Frank Luntz I hearken back to the day during the NH pirmary of 2008 when I loudly berated him on a street corner in Manchester for several minutes over his efforts at destroying the English language.
I told him he should do something productive with all of his dirty money.
He didn’t listen.
Hill Dweller
Luntz foiled by a Potter fan. Too funny.
waratah
I do not think for one moment that Luntz thought this would not be leaked.
Baud
So I’m confused. Was Abbi on a Luntz scholarship, or did Luntz cancel his scholarship because some random Penn student recorded him?
Bob R.
KIds these days, man.
I remember when students could be counted on to know their Harry Potter.
There are a variety of charms a wizard could use in that situation, but not one’s Patronus.
Sheesh.
WereBear
Hahaha (repeated many times with pauses for breath.)
Limbaugh is THEIR Golem. He is how they got here. Now that the drawback of their shortsightedness is becoming clearer and clearer, tough.
They must have thought bitter old white people were a renewable resource.
c u n d gulag
I don’t listen to Rushba the Hutt, so let me ask, does anyone know if he demanded a hundred pounds of skin off of Frank, for his lunch?
gogol's wife
This mistake is in the original, but it should be “acclamation,” not “acclimation.”
WereBear
And the student is correct; do non-journalists have any professional ethics to follow? Isn’t this Luntz’s assumptions making him an ass?
What he’s upset about is the recording because it means he does not have deniability. Even if it leaked verbally, he’d just claim he never said it. Now, he cannot.
bemused
@WereBear:
“They must have thought bitter, old white people were a renewable resource.”
Awesome line. Kudos.
Maude
Why does he think a drug addict is a problem for the GOP. It wasn’t a problem for a very long time.
Luntz picked up his marbles and went home.
ETA Rush’s ratings are not doing well.
Schlemizel
@bemused:
Worse, they assume all bitter old white people will be on their side – I sure as hell am not & I match that description
Higgs Boson's Mate
Luntz’ real problem these days is that he now has to round up 10,000 hits of 0xycontin to mend fences with Limbaugh.
RSA
Abbi is being excoriated in most of the comments on that column. My take:
His actions (recording the talk and passing it on) are a minor transgression.
Luntz was surprisingly dumb to ask a hundred or so college students, in a public talk, to take his comments off the record.
Luntz was surprisingly vindictive to take away a scholarship from his alma mater based on the actions of one person.
If I were at a talk given by a political operative who said, “What I’m going to say next is off the record,” I’d want to ask, “What does that mean for non-journalists?” and “Why won’t you stand behind what you say?”
Suffern ACE
@Maude: it is possible that he’s losing out to the Internet and worldnetdaily and townhall. There are things far more vile out there than that leftist Rush Limbaugh.
Joel (Macho Man Randy Savage)
The Penn chapter of the young Republicans, who must be the most insufferable group of douchebags that ever existed, are really circling the wagons in their college newspaper.
Brantl
Luntz, the main who decided that craziness just needed concertedly different words to make it palatable. What a twelve-inch-pipe-fitted douche.
Citizen_X
“I am not a Villager. Beltway Mind Tricks don’t work on me.”
Riccardo Cabeza
Luntz’s hairpiece has a sad and it’s feefees are hurt because now it has to apologize to a draft dodging coward who is also an uneducated obese junkie with hearing issues. Because that’s how liberty rolls in the teabag conservative world.
Maude
@Suffern ACE:
I bet you are right. It’s so cheery to think that there is no bottom level to vile.
Rush still doesn’t have his advertisers back.
scav
The Rebub Voter Outreach Effort rolls on as this was apparently on-record according to the edicts of his Luntzness (tremble and obey my every request minions!)
Lurking Canadian
Reading Luntz’s comments in the article is just bizarre. “It’s terrible that Penn isn’t a place where you can talk openly!”
Yeah, because “openly” has always meant “in confidence, never to be repeated”. I mean, that’s just obvious.
bemused
@Schlemizel:
I don’t think they should assume the next round of bitter old people, those in their 40’s/50’s now, will be on their side either.
maya
I would think Mr Luntz carries a standard copy of this in his pen pocket.
Petorado
That’s the thing about playing by Beltway rules: not everyone outside of the Beltway media wishes to play by these destructive protocols.
jrg
The fact he thinks this is insightful is astonishing to me. Was he awake while Obama was attempting to make Rush the face of the GOP?
Also, was his head entirely up his ass for the secret 47% taping?
Warren Terra
I have a little sympathy for Luntz’s position (though not his action with the scholarship): there is a long tradition of important men (usually statesmen rather than backroom partisan operatives) appearing at seminars for off-the-record discussions. But the details matter: a hundred students or more is a public lecture, not a quiet symposium, and it’s not enough to expect your remarks are “off the record”, nor even to declare them so; at the least, you (and your host) have to announce your statements will be “off the record”, and anyone unwilling to respect that expectation should leave.
I suspect what Luntz actually did was more akin to when someone speaking to a reporter says something that might be ontroversial and then retroactively declares their statement must be treated as “off the record”. Their interlocutor is under no obligation to respect rules they did not previously agree to – although by the same token, it is possible to establish rules ahead of time and to obtain agreement to those rules, in which case the people who have agreed really should follow those rules unless there’s far more at stake than (as here) some moderately interesting comments about Limbaugh.
Mandalay
@RSA:
Bullshit! There was not any “transgression” at all.
There was no obligation on the student not to record and publish Luntz’s remarks. Luntz may be accustomed to ordering beltway reporters around, but that shit doesn’t fly in a college.
Luntz’s behavior was naive and stupid beyond words. And canceling the scholarship only magnified his idiocy.
Jay in Oregon
@Lurking Canadian:
Aakash Abbi committed a grave offense; he portrayed Frank Luntz’s words accurately and in context.
quannlace
So, what makes someone a ‘Word Wiz?’
Patrick
@Baud:
Per the linked article:
He also added that he would not renew a scholarship in his father’s name for students to travel to Washington, D.C.
Mandalay
@Warren Terra:
That would be true if, and only if, everyone present was given the ultimatum: leave the room now if you are not prepared to preserve the confidentiality of the remarks that follow.
Now while Luntz is whining a fair bit, he is not claiming that such an ultimatum was ever presented.
I can’t understand what possessed Luntz to have been so frank, completely undermining all the bullshit he peddles from 9 to 5. Maybe there is a good side in him that was desperately trying to come out?
Ben Franklin
Hunger strike up to 100 now and growing. 2016 may be a mulligan for 1968, where some conservative doughnut puts the hurt on the Dem candidate, stealing the progressive thunder from the putative source.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130427/cb-guantanamo-hunger-strike/
Fort Geek
@Patrick: If Luntzie needs flouncing-out-of-the-room lessons for his public tantrums, he should find Lindsay Graham.
jimmiraybob
In all fairness and balance, who would have suspected ahead of time that there’s a difference between a university assembly and a Fox News viewer focus group? Really, no one could have seen this coming.
Rex Everything
Please never end, o beautiful GOP implosion.
MikeJ
@WereBear:
Even for a journalist, it’s not off the record just because the person speaking says it is. It’s only off the record if the journalist agrees.
chopper
yeah, nobody should have to tell this nimrod that ‘off the record’ has no meaning when you’re addressing a crowd.
Elizabelle
I think Luntz expected his remarks to get out.
Or perhaps he hoped to differentiate himself, for this audience, from the malodorous rightwing radio/pundit apparatus that he fed and used as long as could (and still will, when it suits him).
I also think he might have defunded the travel scholarship to mend bridges with the Limbaughs of the world.
Ben Franklin
Iceland appears to be the new locus of worldwide progressivism.
http://en.rsf.org/iceland-court-orders-visa-subcontractor-to-26-04-2013,44440.html
West of the Rockies
@Suffern ACE: Good point — more important than the theatrics of this event is Luntz’s thesis: right-wing hate talk is causing damage to the nation and the Republican party.
Mandalay
It’s an interesting aside that the student who recorded Luntz appears to be a plagiarist:
Hunter in DailyKos on 4/25: “Off the record” is not a patronus charm, Mr. Luntz.”
Abbi in the Daily Pennsylvanian on 4/26: “off the record” is not a Patronus charm.”
It is ironic that the headline for Abbi’s article is “Why accountability matters, and honesty should be priority number one” in an article where he steals someone else’s writing.
RaflW
“off the record” is not a Patronus charm should win the Intertrons for the day.
Oh, and as to your question: its a tie. They’re equaly moronic.
West of the Rockies
@Maude: Do tell! Is the Father Coughlin of our times finally showing signs of erosion in the ratings? That would be wonderful.
Villago Delenda Est
I’ve got news for you, Frank old boy.
The racist blimp Limbaugh IS the face of the GOP.
Even the Nazis knew better than to give Streicher full freedom to Jew bash and bait; they actually reigned him in.
You’re not even as clever as Nazis, Luntz.
SatanicPanic
Luntz forgot to use the obliviate charm at the end of his speech.
Mandalay
@RaflW:
Except that he stole the line from someone else. See post #48.
Southern Beale
Can’t wait to hear what Luntz has to say about Alex Jones and Pat Dollard. It seems the “tin-foil haters” have finally succeeded in getting their crackpot conspiracy theories accepted by Republicans in Congress. I bring you the AMMO Act.
Fucking amazing.
West of the Rockies
@maya: Funny link, Maya! Thanks….
Elizabelle
Head’s up: C-Span broadcasting WH Correspondent’s dinner tonight; speeches at 9:30 p. Conan O’Brian is entertainment.
And: at 3:00 p Eastern, C-Span begins rebroadcast of some previous WHCD highlights (Elayne Boosler at Clinton’s first; Darrel Hammond, etc.)
Stephen Colbert’s appearance airs at 4:45 p Eastern. That would be worth seeing again.
This year’s dinner coverage begins live at 6:15 p.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/schedule
Villago Delenda Est
@Mandalay:
You cannot know that, jackass. There’s no fucking way. It’s perfectly possible this guy dreamed this up on his own without knowing anyone else used it. Do you google every pithy phrase you’ve ever imagined (this is a hypothetical, by the way…) to make sure no one else came up with it first?
You’ve jumped to a conclusion with no foundation for it other than your attitude. Which is a pretty pathetic foundation.
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic:
He did use it, but he used Ron Weasley’s spell-o-taped broken wand to channel it, with hilarious results.
RaflW
@Warren Terra:
A friend went to see Prince the other night, said he and house security were intensely scrutinizing for photography, which was explicitly banned. It appeared that everyone complied.
If Luntz wanted to have an off-the-record chat, he needed to say so up front, emphasize that no recording devices were allowed, period.
As was said up-thread, I suspect Luntz may have wanted to be quoted. The Bobo faux-centrists get to nod in agreement that Rush is a crank, and Luntz’ histrionics are to build his cred that he’s a victim. Republicans so deeply identify with victimology, its like a gold card to GOP stardom. It’s also total bullshit.
When you’ve been able to run the table for most of the past 30 years, you are not victims when the public starts to notice and not like it.
Ben Franklin
@Southern Beale:
You’re not saying DHS has not been contracting for millions of rounds, are you?
http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/Winchester-Awarded-Contract.aspx
The conspiracy theory inspiring this bill is fueled by the notion the authorities are trying to dry up the market place. Of course, that is ridiculous.
Self-Righteous Little White Guy
This is off the record, but Frank Luntz blows goats.
Mandalay
@Villago Delenda Est:
GFY. Abbi admitted that he didn’t come up with the line himself.
Jackass.
RaflW
@Mandalay: Whatever.
Luntz is still a pathetic victimy moronatron.
Ben Franklin
@Southern Beale:
I think it was Chris Rock who suggested as a solution to gun violence, that each bullet should cost $5,000.00.
Southern Beale
Well stated. It’s funny that they’re all so scared of Limbaugh, a star they themselves created. Just like the Tea Party, just like all the rest. They created a monster they can’t control.
Luntz is one of the GOP’s top guys but even he is too afraid of the wrath of Rush.
scav
The whole mandalay “plagerism” aspect might go to explain the utter incoherence and mispellings some of the pie-brigade emit so consistently. They’re very carefully and meticulously ensuring that no turn of phrase, logic or spelling is used without the proper footnoted attribution. Well, except the bits they wholesale cut and paste per instruction, tacit or explicit.
Southern Beale
And let me add, the irony of the guy who gave us such falsehoods as “death tax” and “government takeover of healthcare” suddenly scared shitless of the mouthpieces who delivered his message is incredibly rich.
Southern Beale
@Suffern ACE:
“Someday”??? Like the Breitbarts and James O’Keefe haven’t already done this a thousand gazillion times?
Please.
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est: Luntz is no Gilderoy Lockhart. More like Peter Pettigrew.
scav
or, just Tricky Linguistics, just because.
Roy.G
Luntz must’ve thought he was in one of Mitt Romney’s ‘quiet rooms’ where they figure out how to divvy up the 99%’s money.
If there’s any ‘chilling effect’ on free speech, it is the fear of Herr Rushbo in the right wing confidence scam.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
always interesting to see the varied layers of contempt and mistrust between the different parts of the GOP coalition, but their hatreds bind them together more effectively than the Dems, unfortunately.
J.D. Rhoades
I’m running into more and more Republicans in my red corner of a red state (some of them elected officials) who are shaking their heads about the course the party’s taking now, but who immediately tell me “don’t name me in your column!”
I didn’t, at least not exactly…
MomSense
@Bob R.:
Unless he is saying that Luntz regarded the students as dementors–which could be the case.
scav
@J.D. Rhoades: The Silent Majority => The Not For Public Attribution Majority
and no, I haven’t done a deep Intertron search for covergent evolution of that obvious segue.
gocart mozart
I had to look it up because I’m not geeky enough to hang with you people.
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Patronus_Charm
Fwiffo
The patronus charm is not at all the right thing to use anyway. It’s good for getting rid of dementors, or sending messages over a distance, but not for any kind of privacy. Probably Luntz wanted a fidelius charm. A muffliato charm would also suffice for avoiding eavesdroppers. I suppose if he was deadly serious he could require audience members to perform an unbreakable vow, but I can’t imagine the students would cooperate with that (well, some of the less bright Young Republicans maybe…)
gocart mozart
@RSA:
What’s the transgression? He did what every kid with a smart phone should have done. He didn’t promise not to do anything. Since when is exposing political bullshit a “minor transgression” rather than something to be applauded?
Redshift
@WereBear:
It’s an instance of a pretty commonplace belief among conservative-minded people throughout history. They’re always certain that the younger generation are going to get over their silly infatuations and turn into their parents as they get older. I call it the replacement fallacy. You’d think it would be a clue that they’re not carbon copies of their parents, but somehow that never seems to register.
scav
Termino Audiographus!
Neddie Jingo
@Mandalay:
Apologies if I’m feeding a troll here (I’m relatively new as a commenter); it’s a little hard to tell sometimes…
Recycling a witticism is not plagiarism. Sorry, no. Punto final.
And scoring points by pointing out that a witticism is stolen is about as low as intellectual discourse gets. About on the level of a spelling flame. Notice how it adds absolutely nothing to any argument?
MomSense
If Luntz wanted them to forget what he had said, he could have used Obliviate. Or he could have gone with Imperio to control them–although it is an unforgivable curse but Luntz does tend to run with the dark Lord(s).
Bruce S
@Ben Franklin:
They certainly knew what to do with their banksters.
Yutsano
@Neddie Jingo: If the intention is intellectual discourse yes. If the intention is to seek attention and attempt to derail the conversation, then mission (somewhat) accomplished.
mai naem
There’s people I dislike intensely but I figure they’re either smart enough to do scandalous stuff but stay above a scandal, or too stupid to get into a scandal i.e.McConnell, Hannity. Then there’s people who I feel are at some time going to be taken down by some massive scandal. There’s just some underlying sleaziness/slipperiness to them – Joe Scarbo, Ted Cruz,Bill Oreilly,Glenn Beck,Karl Rove etc. One of them is Frank Luntz. He just comes across as a massive douchebag.
trollhattan
I love it when aggressively nasty Republicans get their feefees hurt. Example the infinity: gov goodhair Perry is upset, nay, furious some California cartoonist made fun of Rick Perry, who has been making trips to California to talk up Texas’ bidnez environment.
The cartoon:
http://www.sacbee.com/2013/04/24/5369617/business-in-texas.html
The bleat:
http://news.yahoo.com/perry-disgusted-cartoon-depicting-explosion-230054109.html
Please do mess with Texas, y’all.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
The Nazis were in large part a personality cult around Hitler. There is no equivalent figure in movement conservatism that I’m aware of that could order shit to happen because it had to. In fact, Rush Limbaugh himself is probably about as close as it gets.
trollhattan
@Elizabelle:
Honestly don’t know why they didn’t call it a wrap on the WHCD after Colbert’s appearance. One and done, as the saying goes.
Yutsano
@trollhattan: I’d feel for Ricky boy if this had been a natural disaster or an unforeseen incident like the Boston bombings. But the explosion in West was completely preventable. So suck it up Perry, your boom was caused by your free-for-all ideology.
trollhattan
@Chris:
Ronnie’s corpse, on line three. Nobody said the personality had to be alive.
patroclus
Limbaugh and hate radio have defined the Republican brand for an entire generation as a bunch of intolerant haters who pay no attention to facts and will say or do anything (no matter how unethical, wrong or mean-spirited) to accomplish their political objectives. Luntz is a lot more politically astute than they are, but he’s really of the very same ilk – like Goebbles, he is a masterful propagandist for a truly abhorrent political ideology that has wreaked political havoc for decades. This situation is like Goebbles wandering off the reservation.
Nothing is “off the record” in front of a crowd of students. Luntz is wrong (and pissy) to terminate the scholarship. He deserves every bit of blowback that he’s gonna get.
RSA
@gocart mozart:
Here’s what I meant, in an analogy: I was recently at a concert, and the singer asked people not to record her performance and put it on youtube.
The transgression I meant was one of politeness, that’s all. I think Abbi did the right thing; getting Luntz’s remarks out to the public was a lot more important. And I do applaud it.
Chyron HR
@trollhattan:
Allow me to be the first to congratulate Gov. Perry on joining the “P.C. Police”. His badge is in the mail.
Chris
@trollhattan:
If it’s not alive, it can’t actually rein in anything as VDE was talking about, so for our purposes… yeah.
Also, I would’ve said George W. Bush for most of his presidency (certainly from 9/11 until most of the way to his fall from power) had that Dear Leader thing going, and whoever their next president is, I’d give good odds that they’ll obediently goose-step behind him too. But right now, no such figure.
trollhattan
@Chris:
From an aspirational standpoint, I suspect the Pauls–Rand and Ryan–both click their heels together smartly, in their sleep. Time will tell whether either gets his day at the front of the clown parade.
Patrick
@Mandalay:
How typical. Attack the messenger…
BTW – Is that really what you think is important to this story? If so, I guess you didn’t think Romney’s 47% comment was newsworthy. You probably would have found some fault with the poor guy who recorded it and that would have been the big story according to people like you.
? Martin
@trollhattan: Perry’s pitch isn’t selling. Talked to the govs office last week regarding a major manufacturer wanting to build in either OC or LA counties. 20K-30K jobs (B.S. or higher required) and an unspecified (to me) number of lower skill jobs.
Not only are employers aiming for more expensive states than Texas, they’re aiming for some of the most expensive counties in the more expensive state.
Access to workers (education) beats tax rates for any industry worth having.
? Martin
@Patrick:
Those countertops won’t inspect themselves, you know.
Mandalay
@Neddie Jingo:
Asserting that does not make it so, and you are absolutely wrong. I can provide eleventy gazillion links on plagiarism that also say you are wrong. Have you got a single link to support your misguided view?
I wouldn’t have bothered except Abbi’s article on the incident had the headline “Why accountability matters, and honesty should be priority number one“, and Abbi admits that he did not independently come up with the phrase.
Now if you want to be sanctimonious and pious about “accountability” and “honesty”, you better not use the words of others without attribution.
FWIW I fully support Abbi publishing Luntz’s “off the record” remarks, and posted so early in this thread, but it’s interesting that you and others get so upset by me pointing out obvious plagiarism by Abbi. Had someone on the right reused Hunter’s words instead of Abbi this thread would have been all over them.
patroclus
@Mandalay: Comedians steal stuff from each other all the time and it isn’t plagiarism. And no, I don’t need a link to prove it.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Mandalay: Shorter Mandalay: I’m a sanctimonious asshat.
Biff Longbotham
@? Martin: Lightning McQueen say “KA-CHOW!!”
trollhattan
@? Martin:
Great to hear, and a nice coda to Goodhair’s February journey here, trolling for bidnez relocations. Yup, the next Silicon Valley will be right outside Dallas, or was that Houston?
Mandalay
@Patrick:
You would see that I strongly supported that messenger earlier in the thread if you had bothered to look before posting.
There is nothing contradictory about supporting Abbi for publishing Luntz’s remarks, and criticizing him for plagiarism in his article that was preaching about “honesty” and “accountability”. They are separate issues.
Mandalay
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
Actually my point was that Abbi was a bit sanctimonious. If you want to give a Abbi a free pass for plagiarism then have at it.
Mandalay
@patroclus:
The arguments grow ever more desperate. That’s all you got?
ETA And you might want to dig up Bill Hicks and ask him what he thinks about your claim.
trollhattan
@patroclus:
I think it was Henny Youngman who “borrowed” jokes so openly it became a running joke not only for his routine but for his fellow comedians. He was meta decades before somebody invented meta.
As to “It’s ironic that the headline…” no, no it’s not.
aimai
@Mandalay:
If you can complete any sentence with “to coin a phrase” it isn’t plagiarism–even if you don’t add “to coin a phrase.” People can’t trademark witticisms, commonly used phrases, or puns. It is not dishonest to use such a phrase. To keep insisting that it is just makes you look like a nutcase. I mean pathetic. Since you presumably post what you post for effect you might want to consider whether this is the effect you want to have.
Mike G
@? Martin:
“Nobody could have predicted” that a sub-rate education system with nonunion teachers, based on Jeebus-rode-a-dinosaur creationism and magical-thinking abstinence, would fail to attract knowledge-based industries.
Patrick
@Mandalay:
So why even bring it up?
Your posting is the very reason why people are hesitant in being whistle-blowers or reporting something like this to the media. Everything the whistle-blower has done in their life will be scrutinized. Case in point – your posting accusing this poor guy of plagiarism.
Mandalay
@Patrick:
Because Abbi was going on about honesty and accountability. If you want to preach about that stuff then you should be honest and accountable.
The pearl clutching over this is amazing.
scav
Poor mandalay. Plagerism means exactly what it means he wants it to mean, so ignore all other elements of the definition (attempt to pass of work as one’s own) and context, et cetera. Shit, 89% of the thread titles at BJ are plagerism! so everything said here can be safely ignored. All sentences expressed in a public forum (n.d. anon) must be carefully researched and footnoted (ca 1834-45, see also) and scoured for combinations of words possibly used by other people in the same order.
Mandalay
@aimai: If you can complete any sentence with “to coin a phrase” it isn’t plagiarism–even if you don’t add “to coin a phrase.”
That is true, because that is a generic and widely used phrase.
But when you reuse the unusual phrase ‘off the record’ is not a Patronus charm about Luntz without attribution just 24 hours after someone else used it about Luntz, and that phrase did not even exist on Google prior to that, then you ARE plagiarizing.
And if you are also preaching about honesty and accountability when reusing the phrase you are on thin ice.
FridayNext
@Mandalay:
According to the comments on that column, the author admits he took the phrase from a friend without knowing his friend got it from The Daily Kos. He has apologized and said a correction is forthcoming.
Todd
@Mandalay:
LOL. Coming from you, LOL
Besides, when talking about rhetorical pearls, better to clutch them as opposed to jamming them up the ass and wiggling in ecstasy like you do…
? Martin
@trollhattan: Actually, Austin is doing quite nicely on that, but nobody from Houston to DC seems to realize that the reason Silicon Valley is where it is is because of Stanford and UC Berkeley, that Austin is a tech hub because of UT Austin, that employers are looking at LA and OC county because of UCLA, UCI, USC, that the triangle in NC is because of Duke, NC St. and Chapel Hill, and Boston is a tech (particularly health tech) hub because of more universities than I can list.
Detroit emerged because of ease of transportation a century ago. Modern industrial hubs emerge because of access to highly educated workers. States that invest in education are going to win this. Texas isn’t one of those states. Austin is quite good, but for a state that size, it’s not nearly enough. Most of TXs growth has been low-tech jobs.
? Martin
@FridayNext: Yes, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that Abbi has much too nice countertops.
FridayNext
@Todd:
The wikipedia and Amazon.com pages on anal beads would seem to offer some level of re-buttal to that statement. Of course, pearls would be awfully small, but I bet someone has tried it some where and probably enjoyed themselves.
Patrick
@Mandalay:
Really? Do you have any thoughts to the actual comments that Luntz made? You know, the part of this story that people actual care about? Or is that not important? You rather want us to spend time talking about the guy who recorded his comments?
Or is this going to be like Benghazi, where nothing has to do with the real issue?
scav
@FridayNext: Horrors! I think we’re now into meta- or second-hand plagerism, as plagerists (!) are themselves plagerized (!) (waiting for larger plagerists as I type) and word-combinations and memes metastasize through the hitherunto pristine language space.
Eta oh hell, at least back to an anon poem from Lindesfarne written in Latin, but I was probably thinking of another when I stole the structure). this could — has– gotten old. nice poem though.
Haydnseek
@scav: Mandy to the white courtesy phone to correct your spelling in 3…2…1…
scav
@Haydnseek: It would take a biological team of scores to make the attempt, especially when put through an ipad keyboard. Nuke my spelling from space.
JustRuss
@RSA:
That’s not much of an analogy. Musicians make their living by selling their music and tickets to their performances. Posting an unauthorized video damages their ability to make a living.
Luntz was in a public forum, discussing politics, and somehow thought he had an expectation of confidentiality. I’m sorry, but no, that just ain’t happening.
Little Early Pearly
@Mandalay:
I coined the phrase “Pearl clutching” STOP PLAGERIZING ME!
RaflW
@trollhattan: Gee. When you go to Illinois and brag about low regulation just days after your state suffers a massive explosion that has probable relation to low/no oversight, you might take some heat for that.
And since when are politicians protected from criticism?
I swear, these Republicans are the biggest crybabies. Waaaaaah!
RaflW
@RSA: Actually the comparison doesn’t seem apt.
Recording artists ask that you not surreptitiously record and rebroadcast their work because the performance is what people lay to hear/see. The artist looses pricing power/sales if you put up a youtube of her show (in theory, anyway).
Running a short clip of a q&a section of a lecture is much less likely to impact the speaking fees of a con artist like Luntz … unless he totally puts his foot in his mouth in a newsmaking sort of way.
I’d say that what Luntz did was much more akin to the mentally unbalanced ravings of Michelle Shocked recently. Its not the copyright infringement for Luntz, its that he (maybe) gaffed. V different, IMO.
RaflW
@JustRuss: Oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry that I independently had a similar though. It could look like I was plagiarizing your idea and re-working it. I promise I wasn’t.
/Have a nice afternoon, Mandalay. And everyone! I hope it’s as gorgeous where you are as it is here in Minneapolis this afternoon. Parkas Tuesday, shorts and bike helmets Friday. Ahh, spring in the northern Midwest: 48 hours of joy.
FridayNext
@scav:
Less plagiarism to my mind than a student who made a mistake and will, hopefully, now admit it in public and correct it.
I would also include the copy-editors and fact checkers in this case. They too are students and still learning. Professionals would likely have caught that for the paper before it went to print.
Neddie Jingo
@Mandalay:
Oh, please, please do! Eleventy gazillion links, right now. And I’m going to be counting. Tits, or GTFO.
Bite me. I want to see the eleventy gazillion first, Ignatius T.
patroclus
@trollhattan: Yeah, the very idea that using someone else’s witticism (or joke) is “plagiarism” is so ridiculous that it’s not even worth discussing. This thread has offically been de-railed.
And I demand to see the eleventy gazillion links too!!
Ben Franklin
@? Martin:
Attack the messenger is the MO, especially when you’re shooting out of the boat.
Kyle
Shorter Mandalay:
The bartender who recorded Rmoney’s “47% moochers” rant spilled a drink, and that is the real outrage.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Mandalay:
I must say this metaphor which you’ve deployed regarding the anxious retention of aquatically spawned items of personal jewelry is quite striking and memorable. How very clever! Thank goodness it wasn’t plaga…
Oh, wait.
patroclus
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: I think that someone must have used the phrase “pearl clutching” long before Mandalay did and he/she didn’t even provide a citation to it!! Plagiarism!
And now that I think of it, Mandalay didn’t even provide a citation to the phrase “eleventy gazillion!”
RSA
@RaflW: Thinking about your comment and several preceding, I’ve changed my mind about Abbi. I retract my “minor transgression” comment.
Thor Heyerdahl
@patroclus: And comedians make jokes about others copying their work. They made fun of Milton Berle all the time.
patroclus
@Thor Heyerdahl: I said that earlier and Mandalay, without citation, said I was getting “desperate.”
AA+ Bonds
It is actually sort of a big deal that there is no “off the record” anymore. To be certain, I blame the government and corporate manipulators of media, not the media themselves – but good luck getting background on anything from anyone without proving yourself a whore first.
Aimai
@AA+ Bonds: people always had to prove they were willing to whore to get “background”– that’s what beat sweeteners are all about. Nobody who seriously wants to expose corruption or the everyday workings of the political world needs “background.” People will tell you what they need to tell you for their own purposes, or they won’t. Anonymity and deep background and double top secret “exclusives” are always self interested, exploitative, and frequently false. If someone is a whistleblower they need to be protected but someone who is frank Luntz is just a player. If you aren’t willing to be part of the game (I.e a sucker) then by all means publish.)
West of the Rockies
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ: WIN!
FridayNext
@AA+ Bonds:
I am still confused why these words were officially off the record.
Here is what we know, at least I think we know.
It was a public event open to everyone. No pre-advertisment specified it would be off the record. There were no tickets for the event (free or not) or otherwise reservations with TOS with no recording rules, as is typical of sporting events and concerts and plays and such.
Then, out of nowhere, speaker wants to go off the record. The reporter agrees, but I don’t understand why that necessarily applies to everyone else. Abbi is not a journalist and is not bound in any degree to any journalistic standards or ethics. (Mother Jones might, but that’s another story.) He is a member of the public. Can a guest speaker just announce this is all off-the-record and have it apply to everyone in the room without their consent? Are people who do not agree REQUIRED to walk out?
Is there a vote among the attending public? Is it decided on a majority basis and everyone else has to get out?
Clearly Luntz thought it was off the record, but why does that make it OFFICIALLY off the record in a way that ethically binds everyone in the room?
What am I missing?
Uncle Cosmo
@Thor Heyerdahl: Back in the 50s there was a spate (or should we say a rash) of “wind-up doll” jokes:
The only one I remember, for some undogly reason, is–
Uncle Cosmo
I am shocked! shocked! that the Penn management has not yet expelled Abbi & gone crawling to Frank Putz offering to suck his wizened willy if he will just please please pretty please restore the scholarship, i.e., give them back the money…
There are no politics more vicious & banal than academic politics, & there are no finances more greedy & depraved than academic finances.
mvr
@RSA: Why is this even a minor transgression? Do people have a duty not to report what someone says whenever they say “This is off the record . . .” before the rest? Perhaps there are laws against one party recording a public conversation? In general with my friends I can see that it would be polite to ask before I record. But in a public forum, presuming no laws say otherwise . . . This “off the record ‘thing is something of a journalist’s convention, and not a point of general etiquette, let alone morals.
Gwangung
@patroclus: yeah, this MIGHT get some traction if the kid was a budding comedian, taking some other comedian’s punch lines. That’s their stock in trade.
Journalists, feature writers, columnists? Not so much.
And I do well enough with the night job for it to pay for itself…..
El Cid
I agree with this post, but that’s entirely off the record.
WaterGIrl
@Neddie Jingo:
This bears repeating.
LongHairedWeirdo
Saying that something is “off the record” demonstrates a complete inability to understand the principle of the First Amendment. If you speak to me, you can’t stop me from reporting what you said to me. Period. But I may choose to say “Okay, I promise I won’t report on this – or will only report it anonymously” and then, if you trust me, you may say something that lets me learn more about the story, and therefore write a better story in the end.
You can’t go off the record of your own accord. It’s an agreement between you and an individual reporter who is either honorable, or who at least fears the consequences of violating your trust in obtaining further information.
If Luntz thought he could say that “these comments are off the record” and that held any force, he was a complete fucking idiot (no gentler language conveys the depth of stupidity).
It sounds like journalism has gotten so whipped that the VSPs think that they can declare something off the record and have everyone just accept that. It’s good if they learn differently. It’d be a lot better if they learned that via actual *journalists*.
(I remember an old Doonesbury where a dictator tells Rick Redfern “no, that doesn’t sound good – don’t print that.”
“I’m sorry sir; once you’ve told it to me on the record, you can’t stop me from printing it.”
“Oh. And what do you call *that*?”
“A free press”.
FridayNext
@LongHairedWeirdo:
I agree.
This was officially “off the record” in the Washington DC, Very Serious People sense.
That phrase has no meaning outside the confines of professional journalists, even then, is only a matter of ethics and practical source care-and-feeding, not a law, regulation, or rule. For non-journalists in public, I don’t see that such a thing exists.